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tv   Inside Story 2018 Ep 60  Al Jazeera  March 2, 2018 10:32am-11:00am +03

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you going to the u.s. incited the u.n. security council sanctions committee to fabricate the theory of cooperation between us and syria this is only a mean trick to create an atmosphere of sanctions against our republic and enforce a full scale sea blockade by railing at us as a state of possession and political of chemical weapons and to justify its military invasion into syria turkey is realty says eight of its soldiers were killed and another thirteen were injured in the northern region of our freend making it one of the deadliest days for turkish forces as they began to cross border offensive against kurdish y.p. g. forces in january. at least one person has died after a suicide blast in the afghan capital kabul police say a couple this detonated in an area close to foreign embassies there's been no immediate claim of responsibility or a judge today those are the latest headlines from us here at al-jazeera coming up
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next inside story. can they do violence in fentanyl african republic has grossed more than a million people in the capital. on their race on the ground that's our report on how to keep what i'm trying to carry on with our lives and need an ongoing cause. a leaked un report blames regional powers for much of the violence in libya the u.a.e. and egypt are singled out for supplying weapons to rival armed groups in violation of un sanctions so what can be done to stop this this is inside story. hello and welcome to the program. libya has been
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a heightened state of violence for much of the past six years the overthrow of leader moammar gadhafi has created a dangerous politically divided atmosphere the country has two rival seats of power along with several dozen armed groups fighting for control now a leaked un report has shed some light on who is backing some of those forces it says the united arab emirates and egypt have been supplying weapons to armed groups on the ground that's despite a u.n. arms embargo we'll get to our guests in a moment but first this report from hamad and but d.c. . armed groups in libya are continuing to receive foreign support from nations aiming to influence who will control the oil rich nation that's according to a panel of united nations experts. after the fall of moammar gadhafi in two thousand and eleven during the arab spring libya spiraled into civil war between rival political factions international sanctions were imposed in reaction to gross and systematic violations of human rights the latest report highlights countries
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that have both directly and indirectly fueled the ongoing conflict in libya it mentions the repeated air raids by the egyptian air force on the oil areas to support the forces of renegade general khalifa haftar. countries in the gulf as well as you see there foreign policy not only as directed towards intergovernmental relations but as putting governments in place in various countries or imposing policies that are in line with their definition of national security and their geopolitical designs and on the other hand you have come to see a business opportunity here and the group willing to exploit that. the u.n. panel reported last june that the united arab emirates violated international law by supplying half their forces with attack helicopters and other military aircraft pro half the groups have been accused of kidnapping and torturing journalists
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activists and religious figures in eastern libya some of whom faced extrajudicial executions this latest report is set to be submitted to the un security council for further action in hopes that it can counter foreign influence in the war torn nation how would the d.c. . let's bring in our guests in london sam ham the editor in chief of international interest joining us on skype from stockholm peter of aizenman senior researcher in the arms and military expenditure program at the stockholm international peace research institute and also on skype from london and i said director of the solders institute a think tank based in tripoli thank you all for joining us now and yes i want to start with you is it at all surprising to hear that the u.n. is once again highlighting violations of the arms embargo in libya and that the u.a.e. and egypt are named as offenders in this report as well. when it's not surprising
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that it could for the bushes but this has been going on literally recently but has been going on for at least four years since the beginning of the civil war. began in july of two thousand and fourteen. but i think it's more troubling to hear this report now given that the international community has given libya probably until around september two thousand and eighteen to move towards elections and what this tells me is that the key regional actors that is egypt and the emirates and key local actors was addicted a surrogate some proxies such as harry potter in the libyan national army and the right wing towards peaceful election but their right wing towards something much more lethal the right wing towards more war and more conflict certainly doesn't inspire a lot of belief in the peaceful process of the political process but it also comes into question as the role of the u.s. it begs a very simple question is it the right time to call for elections if you're going to allow for the arms involved to be continually violated and for countries that
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are seemingly on the surface in their rhetoric support the elections but also backing those that they want to win the elections peacefully and broadly the answer this is the second time that the u.a.e. has been called out by the un where is the pressure on them to stop this. that's a very good question i think it's bloody but that's the second time i think it has happened already before that major questions have been raised about how do you eat is arming specific actors in libya and it doesn't seem that any specific action has been taken either by the u.n. community i do trying to tell libya or tell the u.a.e. in clear terms that they can go ahead with it put some pressure on them maybe traveling with some sort of sanctions towards that that has not happened and also the u.a.e. get stows weapons from somewhere and one could also want to which extends to the
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countries that are involved in supplying weapons which to you we can then support supply to the actors in libya where they have gone to actually prevent this from happening and that remains a very big question mark there's nothing which indicates what i've seen that much pressure has been called on the u.a.e. to actually stop these supplies against the u.n. security council resolutions related to libya sammy from your vantage point what could be done by the you win by the international community by the e.u. by other actors to stop the flow of arms into libya. i think first and foremost we should be wary about how we skew the narrative in libya with our focus on the u.a.e. and egypt because we have to also remember that beforehand if i have to when islam misleading militias and the like when they are armed they also participate in some of atrocities including the blockade on lead so i think one of the first things first is that we have to acknowledge that this is
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a wider problem more than the u.a.e. and egypt it also includes the likes of turkey includes the us includes france includes italy secondly we're looking at this un report but we must also acknowledge that france has received twenty four have the us has engaged in negotiations with him and the like so i think we're looking at a why the civil war in which we should necessarily look at this as a right or wrong party when we're looking at the flow of weapons weapons are arriving on all different sides moreover these various different groups are applying their own pressure that is in the midst militias in tripoli do not recognize the un backed government and neither does khalifa haftar leave libya has become a free for all and i think with regards to egypt and regards to the you egypt shares a border with libya what egypt fears is that libya will fall under islamist governments which would be a threat to c.c.'s government now i'm not saying that i'm a fan of sisi but we're just describing why he's particularly interested in egypt it's the same with the u.a.e. it has a very anti muslim brotherhood agenda so i think although it's great that we focus
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on the u.a.e. it's right that we focus on the flow of arms we should be aware that the flow of arms is not just going to have to it's going to islamist militias it's going to this in turn militia it's going to miss about that it's going to be all of these various different forces because libya let's be honest is a cake in which everybody is trying to get a slice of it whether it's italy whether it's france with its u.s. or whether it's egypt and the u.a.e. and i so want to get your reaction to what sami was just saying but also if we're talking about international players who have an interest in libya let's not forget russia where does russia stand right now and are they in. back back in general have to. largely have to coalition the two factions rather when it comes to the supply of weapons i think from his point is entirely true that every country that has had a vested interest in libya since two thousand and seven has probably broken one of those arms violations what they were giving it to quote unquote islamists or other of the rebel factions or whether they're giving it to the libyan national army in
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the commission of a militia is the point of an improper but i think there's a slight nuance because i think maybe the binary should necessarily be islamists and the others but today the binary really is a civil government or military government that the supply of weapons that has gone to towards the violations of the onondaga that is going to with islamist militias be them and in tripoli on the chart or elsewhere in the country that is definitely a violation that we should condemn and like and the clear is the terms but it's not that in juice or to install a military government that has got those same militias that necessarily have grand plans and they haven't been able to make any traction says there's no protein but as the today's arms about its violation being a stalling of a wider melasma what m.l.s. really is this is there to be an induction or an installation of a regime that is a military regime that would return libya to a form of governance that not only was there for the last forty two years before the revolution but it's also something that goes really to the heart of egyptian innumeracy foreign policy which is this is not about islam it is about the grand islam a question of whether or not islam is the way that we should conduct a daily
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a political life in libya it's about having an alternative threatened military regime that should be the clearest of terms a civil government a government where you can hold the suits and ties the kind is a fragile government it's a government that has to be held to account by its own people and that is not a government or a regime or a lecture of political daily life that is going to be tolerated by the emirate which it's like and that's really where i tied in together but to go back to what i mean i think i certainly agree that any old arms out about about a violation you know should be condemned but i think this one has you know there is a wider reason why we jhalak to the localized. the best in this kind of move but they do so because it doesn't empower liberals it doesn't civil government it's empowered demagogues and should be very clear about that so the point about russia russia's foreign policy has always been it's a feeling here again it's very very difficult but the more tactical than strategic that the thirty have a very firm understanding of libya but they know what they want to see which is
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a return to the continuation of a symbol of capitalism perhaps a major issue but i think it's also a question of trying to put the americans in the or wherever they can they want to try to remove some of that had germany from the very countries that rule in the arab spring that they always want to reference the arab spring as a failed attempt at bringing democracy to the middle east and north africa and they shouldn't be down this way so i'll give you russia's foreign policy ambitions in the quarter but i would have moved away from the fact that they have ambitions in the last week and i've spoken about and given clear with the question is if there was no but you need to build the military base in libya they would certainly pursue that appeared to the government of national accord in libya was supposed to bring conflicting political and military sides to gether why hasn't that happened is it simply because of the questions of who has control over certain factions of armed forces. i think that's a very good question it's not something which i'm very well i'm supposed to answer myself i just know that there is a major. difference between the groups and that each of them has found their
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different backers and the u.a.e. has chosen one of those two to a back and to lie arms to them and how they can come to an agreement that is a major issue and that those are reversed very much to the fact that the panel of experts that is investigate it in arms embargo violations is very careful in that statements that because it itself doesn't really know who the legitimate government of libya years and therefore who according to the u.n. security council resolutions potentially might be eligible to get arms after of course the u.n. security council true the u.n. sanctions committee. commission has given permission for that so in that calles it is extremely difficult to determine who is allowed to have military force who is allowed to use it and who is allowed to actually at some point in time get arms sammi could you if the invision any scenario by which general haftar could
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participate in any political agreements or political process going forward i think look this is going to be difficult for me to say because it's one of those catch twenty two issues if you put yourself in kind if i have this position whereby you sided with the internationally recognized government and the islamist militias in tripoli rejected that international recognized government the secular parties refused to acknowledge the elections because they didn't win it they started telling the world that libya wasn't ready for democracy how do you take the other party seriously the problem with libya is that every party only accepts democracy in so far as there are parties that when i also object to the binary of civil government versus military government the u.a.e. it's more than just head to many over libya the u.a.e. quite simply do not trust the muslim brotherhood take or. example saudi's reaction to president morsi is visit to teheran saudis for backstab they felt betrayed they said why is the muslim brotherhood doing this we gave you a chance we backed off on the arab spring when you won even though we don't like
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you and you going to stab us in the back by going to turn around and signing tourism agreements there is no trust with the muslim brothers or the islamist regimes and when we're talking about libya's civil war problem let's be brutally honest here the very parties that want her to disarm other very parties that invited nato to libya in the first place they couldn't get rid of get their feet on their own so they brought to nato to completely destroy libya and append a political balance i'm not saying that gadhafi was a good man but the problem with the nato interference was that it came in it bombed the daylights out of libya and it try to prop up certain parties that other parties what happy with you had no political accord there was no leader of this revolution there was no leadership to guide libya into a future all you had was chaos so now you have a civil war suppose half the disarms tomorrow less of visitors suppose have to tamara says you know what guys i'm sorry i'm going to disarm how do you deal with the conflicting factions in tripoli how do you deal with intent how do you deal with syphilis lemme get there if you want to come forward to the elections the
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problem is not only half that even though he has a disastrous problem the problem is with all of the libyan factions who quite simply cannot look at each other and sit at a table and say you know what i recognize you as a libyan the muslim brotherhood want libya hafter wants libya say for this leg of their if you want to libya and the biggest issue is this the u.s. doesn't know who to support the u.s. is baffled france is baffled italy is baffled u.k. is before for france of the u.k. this was supposed to be a straightforward operation we go in we remove their feet we get the contracts and we rebuild libya for the u.s. it was supposed to be straightforward we get rid of give their feet we step in libya and we prevent the spread of terrorism but now it's all over the place because now you have qatar and turkey on one hand and then you have you egypt on the other hand and both lobbying washington lobbying paris lobbying london for international support this is the reason why so. we should be wary how we skew the narrative even if you got rid of you in egypt and i believe there are disastrous influence on libya i would say it i believe they are disastrous on libya if you remove them it does not remove the core issue here which is how do you reconcile
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nato interference in libya how do you reconcile the fact that nobody really wants elections and how do you reconcile trying to bring a power that can actually bring peace to libya moreover and on this last point before a handover so i don't speak for too long how do you reconcile these tribes who bore the brunt of the revenge of many of these militias who rose up against vesey then you will lead will never forget the blockade that was done to them what fellow never forget the damage that was done to them and the revenge attacks all of these innocent people who simply followed though the wave which is that get which did get their few waves what punished them brutally punished libya needs a very serious national reconciliation and they could take great lessons from some african mandela's amnesty commission instead of going in and taking revenge and passing a law banning every gadhafi era politician and torturing and abusing former prime ministers like that in mahmoud and as you heard sami talk about concrete steps that need to be taken to reconcile the situation in libya i want to talk for
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a minute about a son salaam who's the u.n. envoy to libya now what has he done has he been able to achieve anything since taking that jump who is rooted out of a corner so i mean as american when the american there were a sense of them as job is where are the questions are almost from the order you know so it is logical to look at people that were the most vulnerable in society bore the brunt of the pain that was injured for going to work and so it doesn't lebron but his campaign was really nice for more units to be able to reproduce what was a place where a lot of our present live and left in a lot of regional parties whether we took it back or whether it be you know it took a member of us to try to talk to the nature of rooting for crickets libya sort of who has been brutal reported over the last couple of years and that continues to be a problem because what is central to. that's a more central thrust of lemmas joke is that ultimately he has to try to reconcile those groups into the me and truth of reconciliation a national peace accord has never become a call to call the government of national accord or peace government the government
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of national unity because at the moment it's it's still the same case an arms embargo is not just the fact that some weapons came through but and allowed themselves to move on to the municipal it's a very fact that they want pennies towards war they make will live quickly that they make peace very very very very costly and i think in that respect many of today's a bit precious whether if after whether the other groups that were in tripoli or not and have more difference of the opinion in the way that this history emerged over the last couple of years but it's not really the central point to that because we have to look forward let's make looking forward we need to try to find a way in which we can assert libya's over until i think that's really a sense of damage over to my ability to do so as a libyan on unfortunately apparently that actors are committed to ward procuring weapons that we have to stop the mechanism through which to use them which they employ and the second is that we have to make sure that those weapons are not coming into the country a moment where we're living through it again very very fragile moment where any group whether the estimates or others and again i still don't buy that narrative i think it's groups of people that are going to be on the boat they're going to bed
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the brunt of being wiped out of the groups that want to be empowered and monopolize power and that's typically where people medical groups make investments and weapon is because they want to monopolize and they have made an investment trying to monopolize the existence of them as real job that is making sure that libya is a state place to conduct free and fair elections and the conditions have to be free and the actual way that we conduct our the time once was we were to elections has to be fair that's the distance of freedom in the air before people can make a real choice about what kind of state it was i haven't let's not forget that libya is also moving towards a moment when i'm going to have a referendum on the constitution and some let me just interrupt you a second i'm going to come back to you with regards to the elections just a member first i want to ask their terror about another point have have international sanctions imposed on libya in any way have have they had an impact when it comes to the flow of weapons into libya. grace gente i think to have but they haven't stopped them completely they've made very clear and that's clear
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very clear agreement amongst most countries except of course those countries which have decided to anyway supply arms that it is not the moment to now supply arms to libya. as we mentioned before as a country that wants to have influence and there have been discussions about russia potentially supplying arms to for example the. libyan national army and i have talked but there's no proof no evidence that they actually did and i think they have lived up to the requirements of the arms embargo especially also because they are in the u.n. security council and they don't necessarily want to be seen to act against their own decisions so overall i think the total flow of arms to libya and maybe also arms going out of libya has probably been restricted due to this international action the u.n. and by no only country which only you're now is on supplies in a very specific conditions however and there are a few countries and the u.a.e.
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seems to be the most important one as far as the evidence shows the evidence that the panel the u.n. panel has collected they have to side to not listen to this and by go and hear again that the problem is that apparently no one has really good enough pressure on them to make damned do these according to the agreed rule and you agreed rule is actually if you remember these are not a fool arms embargo but a system in which you can supply weapons to leave me out if you get the permission from the united nations sanctions committee or united nations security council in abstract so you can do that but only in a very controlled way really and trying to you have to build up security forces in libya itself which both lead should do some good and that of course has not happened ok and as. i want to get back to the point about the elections because despite how bad the situation is in libya right now we've heard the e.u.
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we've heard the u.n. we've heard the international community continue to say that they would like to see elections with parliamentary and presidential being held in libya in two thousand and eighteen is that in any way realistic but as we listen because of sort of a destructive process you dip in your link and hey presto there's been an election but there's the question of what happens that they are there and i think is so i mean as mentioned earlier on the way to actually disagree with the way in which it's framed up because i think there's a can there's a with this question wouldn't you know that there's got to be someone there to spoil a lot of his confused perhaps grievance for greed of it there are certainly groups on the ground that have legitimate grievances that mention one of them but they were lead to other groups that fell out of favor in the palm regime but were exploited by actors jury selection they were exposed to boy actors like how they brought up here in this year it is operational may fifth two thousand and fourteen before the election results before the move towards a more likely internationally recognized government so i think there are things there that have to be understood about it we should history and we should also realize that elections are
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a time where we decide that to timothy but like alex you noted that some in the army also confused because you're legitimate doesn't mean everything that you do legal doesn't mean that you can break geneva conventions about human rights and the way that you treat prisoners of war and i think this is the problem that i have and that is that the judge him if he is a word and how and see an election the story about currency give someone a mandate a lease of life a part of years to effectively do what i'm going to say which is what they want to know now as they can pretty much they want then as i just around the country you have so much weapons and as i just need to interrupt you can i want to i want to give sammy the chance to reply sammy and very quickly i'm going to give you the last point here you heard and it's disagree with some of the points you made would you like to to reply. i think and this just confirms everything i said when i say that democracy is only satisfactory if you when he talks about legality but not legitimately in fact i can vote for somebody but he still has to do exactly what i want this is the attitude that has hampered libya this is the attitude that has hampered any process for elections but his the real reason why elections may not go ahead or why there is genuine fear for elections there is genuine fear because the
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irony is and to be honest this quite hurts me to say it that safe in a slum give if he is the prime candidate that the libyans if given the choice they are sick and tired of a lot of this instability that they want to go back to a the devil they know than the devil that they don't know so this is the biggest issue here if the parties believe that see if it doesn't stand a good chance they will allow the elections if they believe that he can come back to power then they will not allow the elections he holds the power and i think genuinely and this has summed it up perfectly the reason why libyans are terrified of elections because it's my it's all me or nothing i take all or nothing and that's the reason why libya currently based on the current circumstances the solution can only be a military victory and that upsets me deeply gentlemen we are going to have to leave it there thanks to all our guests the peter of is a man and i said go marty and thank you too for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com and for further
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