tv Inside Story 2020 Ep 29 Al Jazeera January 30, 2020 10:33am-11:00am +03
but his insistence and why is it getting. join me here on my journey in search of india. coming soon on al-jazeera. and the u.s. president unveils his long awaited middle east peace plan israeli goals get support while palestinian aspirations are sidelined does the proposal pose or undermine peace what does this say about america's evolving position on the conflict this is inside story. hello and welcome to the show i'm sam is a than the last opportunity for peace that's how u.s.
president donald trump described his plan to end 7 decades of conflict between palestinians and israelis but palestinian leaders want involved in the process and they immediately rejected it people in the occupied west bank in gaza protested as soon as trump on valve the proposal with israel's prime minister its sides with israel in the so-called final status issues to be resolved with palestinians israel gets all of jerusalem as its capital as well as sovereignty over the jordan valley and in legal jewish settlements in the west bank. my vision presents a win win opportunity for both sides a realistic 2 state solution that resolves the risk of palestinian statehood to israel's security today israel is taking a giant step toward peace i hope that the palestinians and braces and build with
israel a future of prosperity and peace i also hope that our other arab neighbors embrace your vision and forge a path of reconciliation with israel that can create for all of us a brilliant future palestinians would get a path towards their own state but only after 4 years of monitoring to determine whether their leaders are doing enough to fight what is termed as terrorism and there's no guarantee of their refugees right to return to ancestral lands palestinian leader mahmoud abbas called the plan a conspiracy but i'm not sure. that in the announcement we did not find anything new compared to what we heard 2 years ago it is sufficient to say the 2 years ago we heard the jerusalem is the undivided capital of israel as claimed by them we cannot wait and wait and keep on waiting our position has not changed and after we heard this utter nonsense we say no no and a big no to the deal of the century. well let's have
a look at how israel expanded its share of land over the years more than 90 percent belong to the palestinians during the british mandate in 1947 the u.n. voted to give more than half of the land for a jewish state and the rest for an arab one well after declaring a state in 148 and the war that followed israel expanded its control to about 78 percent during the 1967 war israel occupied the remaining 22 percent consisting of the west bank and gaza are effectively controlling all of historical palestine but in 1993 israelis and palestinians signed the oslo peace accord to begin the process of deciding what parts of that 22 percent would become a palestinian state but israeli policies of settlement expansion and land confiscation have made it difficult for anything to be handed back the us president is now offering palestinians only 15 percent of mandates palestine.
let's bring our guests into the show we have joining us from tel aviv robbie sable he's a veteran hebrew university of jerusalem and former legal advisor to the israeli ministry of foreign affairs in ramallah shatha senior palestinian official and adviser to president mahmoud abbas and in washington d.c. phyllis bennis she's a fellow at the institute for policy studies and the author of the book understanding the palestinian israeli conflict welcome to you all if i could start with phyllis and ask the question is this a plan that can bring peace to i think fairness i don't think it was designed to bring peace this was a u.s. israeli plan it was designed as a meeting between the impeached and the indicted if you will and its real goal i think had far less to do with peace then it does with providing political and legal
protection to keep netanyahu out. jail and trump in the white house and get them both reelected so the timing was all about that the substance of it was to reify and give a u.s. imprimatur u.s. legitimacy to the existing illegalities that constitute israeli apartheid israeli occupation violations of the geneva conventions violations of international law violations of un resolutions that have characterized the israeli treatment of palestinians for these last many many decades and i think that what we're looking at is a scenario much of which we already have i could further and. bring to the perspective perhaps of the other side that the narrative goes hey this is a realistic plan and it's the palestinian leadership has been dreaming so the narrative goes of really unrealistic things everybody knew that the settlements
israel is not going to go back to palestinian control so this isn't about justifying apartheid this is about creating a state which palestinians can have their security but in a more realistic way what do you say to that narrative what i say is that it's only realistic if you accept as real the current levels of violations this notion that everyone knows which is what we're constantly told everyone knows that all the settlement blocks will remain under israeli control everyone knows that israel will end up controlling all of jerusalem well the palestinians don't know that and international law doesn't say that ok because the israelis happen to be more powerful and happen to have the backing of the world's sole superpower it's not going to work that way and the notion that this is actually going to be a state for the palestinians i think also we have to get rid of that notion what would exist in 4 years under this plan is very very far from
a state it's an. entity in which palestinians would have essentially what they have now in what's known as area a under oslo in the palestinian towns and villages it's essentially municipal authority they would choose the teachers they would have the authority to pick up the garbage an issue driver's licenses they would not be allowed to not only would they have no control over their borders their airspace their water their electronic grid none of that would be under their own control or and they would not what you hear is that they would not be allowed even to sign onto international treaties would not be allowed to use the resources of the united nations or the international court of justice or the international criminal court and crucially that this would be called the end of the conflict ok finally that anyone who will guess i'm certain i'm more gentile about this sort of the end. game but on this point that we're talking about let me bring in robbie and say ravi can you
unilaterally give one side or they want pretty much on contentious issues like sovereignty over settlements which are deemed illegal in international law sovereignty over pretty much all of jerusalem no return of palestinian refugees can you give one side all of that and still expect to have peace is this really realistic well i have some buzz of patients about the background you're describing what we want to talk about is the future here we have a proposal for ella's to be an independent state with well with its capital a box of easter it's not the dream that all the palestinians have been claiming about the us but the tragedy is they've always magick if any called by the doubt they could have got a better deal for them 70 years ago 40 years ago if they reject this they will get a better deal in the future so what they have to do is to sit down and make difficult compromises sessions so far. unfortunately for us unfortunately for ben
they failed to do this and i wasn't really good my system my question is yes are is there still really room for compromise if you give all basically the final status issues the most contentious issues to one side what's there what's left to negotiate over than what's left to qualify to be at the panda's lots of issues that look there is no we're not of that we're not alike because it is a comp in other words there will be a palestinian state of course and in the west bank which is something israeli right wing is not a happy they will have the status quo there are no words there will be connection between gaza. and the west bank all sorts of things now it's a plan it doesn't mean left to sign will on the dotted line i don't expect do they have to negotiate and this is the facts of the issue they have to sit and realize we're going to have it called my days as israel realizes have to make compromises
and again i want to go back to the original point that tragedy has been the also always rejected any call ok let me let let let me bring in. let me bring in the b. of an he's a real shot of course you spend a lot a big chunk of your life talking and negotiating to robbie's point that if you reject this each time the palestinian side or leadership has rejected a plan evented up with last your response to that. well we did we did accept the does law agreement we did sign an agreement in the white house we went through this agreement into several. detailed agreements i i ran the palestinian delegation in the gaza jericho agreement and we accepted it we went inside there was a 2nd agreement that is called. a slow 2 which was agreed to with it's not that it's not true that we simply will not accept anything. what we
want is what international law gives us what the agreement that we signed in the white house gives us and then and the right foot to an independent state in the area occupied in 1067 by the israelis with east jerusalem its capital and the right of the refugees guarded by resolution $1004.00 of the united nations this is this is the get these are the parents without now even the support and backing of the u.s. or is it time as robbie would say to compromise on those issues. robin wanted the peace process the road was a man of courage and wisdom and he knew that if there is real peace between the palestinians and israelis there will be peace between israel and the whole arab world and we were close friends and. really it was a tragedy losing game by an israeli jewish extremists who shot and killed him while
he was talking about peace the center of tel aviv but we don't have mr rabin today we have mr trump and we have mr netanyahu and the comic show last night really shows the impossibility of these people begin the peace process i mean it if you really were not an american and you will see that america is trying to play the role of a peacemaker but brings with it in. in life and on television the the leader of the country that really occupied palestinian land and they have really taught amended the palestinians in every way possible what kind of business let me jump in there just to let me jump in and take this question back to robin before i bring in phyllis because i can see us i'm sure phyllis has something to say about this but robbie you said that look the palestinians have to be reasonable and stop rejecting plans and this plan does give them something it's or doesn't
want to state does it really even i mean when you look at the detail of this if the palestinians accept giving up east jerusalem accept giving up the occupied land where the settlements a bill to accept giving up the right of return for palestinian refugees they get a state or do they get 4 years of being under continued occupation while they're in observation until assumably at some point the u.s. and israel says they think the palestinians have worked hard enough to fight what they call terrorism that is not an immediate recognition of palestinian statehood even in return for concessions of all of these final status issues right robbie. it's always an issue of you looking at the half the cost of his half war and i agree it's is not what the palestinians could have got to feel like there's more to take this is nothing right now for the palestinians in return for pretty much everything israel wanted in the final status issue i'm not right now i'm not sure
about those what at the moment they have sent me off on a bus a similar thought it will be recognized according to the fan as independent state they will have no direct access to the gaza strip they will have a capital in east jerusalem there's issues and other issues that can be negotiated and i suppose i can see the found proposes that sit on his sit together and negotiate you know the saying you must accept it as is what does that tell us so again i would urge all snow was 6 accession but the final status talks collapsed present again yourself up late our thought is not willing to compromise all of a. jet i think generalists bosal made a campaign that mr touch him. so here's a chance it may be the last chance i hope not but i was just a seize the day it's not what you grabbed about but since i'm a go shit without us is or isn't that where most learned to negotiate the can reach
agreements me reach agreement with egypt reach agreement with jordan reach an interim agreement let me brilliance maybe bring in a sailor suit shaking our heads i'm sure she has something to say about this go ahead phyllis well 1st of all on the question of negotiations i think we have to be clear here this is not a border dispute between peru and ecuador that are that are sitting down together as equals and debating where the border should be drawn this is an occupied land and occupied population and the occupier when they sit together they do not sit as equals so the notion that both sides should make equal compromises this is simply not in it it does not reflect reality this is not reality what we what we heard last night from trump was a direct statement that this plan deals with the security threat to israel of a palestinian state that was how the palestinian state was viewed now many palestinians
believe and many people in this country believe there is no longer the possibility of a palestinian state the land has been stolen the land has been exploded and there is no longer contiguous land that makes any sense that is sufficient to be a state what's called for here as we spoke of earlier is not a state that would be independent that could sign treaties with other countries that could join international treaties that has control of its airspace control of its water this doesn't have any of that this is an entity that would remain under israeli military control and in that context i think we have to be very clear that what on the table is the question of rights not states whether it's one state or 2 state red state blue state the question of palestinian rights is what is being denied here we do not see. he listed in right of return we do not see the right to live independently and self-determination we do not see equality for palestinians living inside israel who live under this nation state law that says explicitly they
cannot be equal because only jews have the right to self-determination in the state of israel it guarantees under israel's basic law that palestinians cannot be equal so under those circumstances all of these rights continue to be denied to palestinian or right let alone rights of water for example all of which remains on the israelis let me let me bring in the palestinian perspective and ask the question from this way is there any incentive for the palestinians to continue to negotiate if that's the starting point is that as i said so much of the final status issues the u.s. would basically give to israel is there much of an incentive for the palestinians to dictate to negotiate in the hope that if they exempt or that maybe that have a sort of cause i state still under israeli control in some areas and it will be 4 years later if the u.s.
and israel are satisfied with the performance of the palestinian authorities if you're asking people to negotiate with you here you have to hang on sorry fellas that let me give an ability chance to get in on this sure. for i don't see really any any real opportunity for peace with with this did do that of mr trump and mr netanyahu so where does that leave you know what does that leave them have a certain alternative though if it were as robbie our guest here would say really nothing you're going to go backwards what what is the alternative from the palestinian perspective look we are 6 and a half 1000000 palestinians in that territory inside inside israel in the west and the west bank and gaza we are equal to the jewish up population in that area they cannot throw us in the sea and we're not really throwing them in the sea we are under their occupation to really have a real peace process you're the only 2 alternatives no other alternative either
that this israelis accept a secular nonsectarian one state where jews christians and muslims have equal rights the right to pray and free political. will and a separation of church and state which the israelis don't want to or else it will be 2 states on the border of mighty $67.00 with his jerusalem our capital and the west jerusalem their capital and then agreement of peace between us allowing us to really still have the right to have that part of the world to have an opportunity for our refugees to make a choice of whether they want to go come back home or go wherever they want to go now this is another world by this agreement by sect by mr trump and mr this is simply we are not going to have a state with israelis are going to take all the land that they have already illegally occupied and turned into colonial settlements they are going to control he has been with us and jordan and between us and ok ok i think that point he made
quite clearly let's let me jump in and ask robbie this question do you think this is a plan that can last beyond the trumpet ministration ropey because we've seen already a lot of criticism even from within the u.s. senator warren has been critical of this plan joe biden's come out against it bernie sanders. if things don't go well for the trumpet ministration in the upcoming elections for the what do you think the the likelihood is that this is a plan that will be discussed or implemented beyond that i would say it this is not an issue clinton is all of the united states they're not our neighbors the palestinians are i mean we don't want you all over them it's not our interest it's not at the palestinians interest it's in our interest about this plan really depends on the unique position of the trumpet ministration doesn't it it's really taken the u.s. position to a new area. all they can do is help support
a goetia they've they've that what that change from different position is they accept the reality reality is israel the settlements they are and this is the reality the question is can we see from there and reach an agreement maybe not but it's the agreement between us and the palestinians me except with them in the polls we can sit them in the future united states can sit on the side it can help kids but basically it's an issue between us and our neighbors and it's so important for us israelis and i think and as we do sit together and try to work out some sort of formula something we need needed in the past bill knows this is a tragedy we did and it's worthwhile trying. the fittest there has been a massive evolution in the u.s. public diplomatic position from one in which during the oslo days the u.s. position was a final status issues need to be resolved directly by the 2 parties in talks to
where we are now which is basically the trump administration giving away a lot if not all of the final status issues to one side to the israeli side what has caused that massive shift in evolution is this the u.s. president pandering to the evangelical religious right in the u.s. . i spoke to some of the us and hander into the jewish vote but particularly to the evangelical christian right the christian zionist movement which is a very key part of his political base what's so ironic here sammy is that the as you speak of the shift in political discourse that actual discourse at the popular level and at the media level and increasingly slowly slowly in congress has been exactly in the other direction exactly in the direction of outrage at israeli actions particularly among young jews organizations like jewish voice for peace that i'm part of you know has seen a flood of young jews and fear among older more traditional supporters of israel in
the jewish community who are terrified at losing the youth as they are and what we're seeing now is that there is a growing chasm between public opinion particularly in the democratic party this is now a very much partisan issue support for israel is now that republican if you let me just live here and give you the counter-narrative to that fellow's there are the supporters of the u.s. president would say hey we've always heard these doomsday scenarios well look after us even recognized jerusalem as the capital of israel it wasn't the end of the world that sort of line which or it's too melodramatically inaccurate to really take seriously how would you respond that well it's not it's not melodramatic at all of that but what that's based on is that people didn't see a violent response and there is the assumption that somehow if there's no blood if on israeli side there's plenty of oil on the palestinian side every week in gaza or write letters and i jump in a scientist 1st we've got a minute left i want to try and give the bill
a final thought to come in and how concerned are you that between now and november for example whatever happens in the upcoming elections israel work very hard to make sure any u.s. recognition it gets for its position will be irreversible and you're not getting the support of the arab governments in the way that you used to get in the past. there is nothing reversible in the united states that said in a democratic country and if. there are elections after the even even if this even if mr trump was reelected and in 5 years things are going to change in the united states in 5 years things are going to change in the world the be really we're closer to the end of a monopole or words into a world in which russia china europe become really equal in importance and influence and therefore mr trump is not our fate and he's not going to be there
forever and therefore things can be arranged there's nothing that reversible of this if you really want peace in the middle east and peace is important to the united states as it is to us and to the israelis what has been proposed that's not bring peace we're going to have to leave it there let's thank our guests very much for joining this discussion robbie no bill and phyllis. and thank you to fortune you can see the show again any time by visiting our website al-jazeera dot com for further discussion head over to our facebook page that's facebook dot com forward slash a.j. inside story can also join the conversation on twitter our handle there is ak a j inside story for me sam is a dan and the whole team here for now let's go find. separately
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