which gives mps the chance to debate the legislation in detail and discuss the key amendments. but there is still some way to go with there is still some way to go with the house of lords debate still have it say. also the chancellor promises the faster increasing spending on schools and hospitals for 15 years, labour core it grubby and electioneering. —— grubby electioneering. —— grubby electioneering. less than 2a hours after losing one crucial vote, borisjohnson has suffered another defeat. mps voted for a bill that could force the prime minister to ask for brexit to be delayed till the end of january next year, something he's pledged never to do. here was that crucial vote.
the ayes to the right: 329. the noes to the left: 300. the ayes have it, the ayes have it. unlock. that was a defeat for the prime minister of 29. caroline spelman the latest to join the conservative rebels. chair of the brexit select committee hilary benn led the debate, saying that a no—deal brexit would only cause more uncertainty for the uk. the prime minister talks about getting it done, and ending the uncertainty. but the truth is, and the honourable member made the point so powerfully, no—deal does not end anything. it would simply plunge us into greater uncertainty of all.
uncertainty... no, i'm going to bring my remarks to a close. uncertainty about the degree and length of disruption. uncertainty about the border arrangements in northern ireland. uncertainty about what our future relationship, trading relationship would be with our biggest, nearest, and most important trading partners — the other members of the european union. former chancellor of the exchequer philip hammond is also supporting the bill, countering the claims that supporting it would lead tojeremy corbyn becoming prime minister. mr speaker, i would sooner boil my head than hand power to the leader of the opposition. but the purpose of this bill, most of us will have no truck with the concept of a vote of no confidence. the purpose of this bill is to instruct this government and this administration how to conduct the uk's future arrangements with the european union. it is not an attempt to remove this government. it is certainly not an attempt to hand power to the leader of the opposition.
and, mr speaker, it's not us who are heightening the risk of a government led by the leader of the opposition — it is my right honourable friend, by pursuing a course of action which if unchallenged can only lead to a no—deal brexit. 0ur chief political correspondent, vicki young, is with me. philip hammond, from whom the whip is withdrawn last night. 0ur chief political correspondent, vicki young, is with me. it's worth reflecting on the unprecedented nature of this, the breakneck speed with which the bill is progressing. i think it is worth doing that because things are moving so doing that because things are moving so quickly, and prime ministers questions today, there were probably five headlines there on a normal day, but we've almost forgotten about it because we got del webb moved onto the next thing. so it's worth taking a step back. first, the idea that mps not in government can ta ke idea that mps not in government can take control of the house of commons and successfully change a law is pretty staggering itself, so to be able to do that in the middle of
this crisis is not quite unprecedented but highly unusual and has led to the 21 tory mps effectively being booted out of the party. so i think the bill will go through, it would be pretty incredible if those mps now backtracked. so that's where we will be about nine may be ten o'clock. and then we move on to the suggestion about a general election, there is one thing to say about what's going on in the house of lords, because this bill going through the commons now, this may get through pretty unscathed, it then has to get through the house of lords and their peers were turning up lords and their peers were turning up this morning, i saw one going on with food, another with a sleeping bag, they are expecting to be there all night, maybe two nights, because there are brexiteer conservatives in there are brexiteer conservatives in the house of lords who are trying to talk the bill out, which means they just keep talking and talking mini i’u ns just keep talking and talking mini runs out of time. that could be a problem. the opposition mps think they can get it through, partly because the house of lords very much a pro—remained chamber.
because the house of lords very much a pro-remained chamber. so they would try to filibuster it, talk it out, but they could extend to friday, saturday, sunday, before prorogation on monday. yes, there is a strange quirk, if they sit through the night tonight and carry on tomorrow, wednesday never ends. so they get stuck on wednesday. and even though we've moved on to thursday and friday, it's absolutely surreal. you can't be stuck in wednesday when there's so much happening on thursday! talk to me about the election vote, there has been a division of views within the labour party. we had some bruising from keir starmer today that they would not be an election until after 0ctober would not be an election until after october 31, but that doesn't seem to be what the leaders of this is saying. it's very tricky for labour. they want to make sure that stopping no—deal is actually enacted, not just that the bill goes through, but it doesn't mean the prime ministers gone to the eu and asked for that
delay, doesn't mean it's granted, it just means the lawyers there. so if we would have a general election on the 15th of october and say if boris johnson were to win, he could come back, change the law, and we still have no—deal on the 31st. so labour are looking for guarantees that is enacted. that is pretty hard to achieve, and they‘ re enacted. that is pretty hard to achieve, and they're are slightly difficult position politically because they spent two years talking about wanting a general election. i was speaking to one labour mp who was speaking to one labour mp who was saying how can we not vote for a general election it would look terrible, we talked about giving people a say, so the labour party is split, those who want a second referendum do not want an general election. and the snp saying bring it on. the tories may have a different way of getting the election. the prime minister needs two thirds of mps to vote for it, that will not happen. but their second attempt to could be to bring forward a simple built, they need a
majority of one and that is possible. if the government is defeated on a general election, how does the promise to respond? to downing street try to get out on the front foot to show that they are somehow in charge of this process and what they will do next? vicki, thank you very much. i know we will speak plenty later on as we get reactions on the votes on various amendments. emotions running high today, especially those who had the whip drawn on them last night. earlier sir nicholas soames — who was thrown out of the conservatives last night — spoke to our chief political correspondent vicki young and told her why he couldn't support the government last night. the prime minister made it clear that it was a confidence motion for him. ifelt that that it was a confidence motion for him. i felt that i couldn't support the government last night, that i must support this bill. and the consequences and actions of this type have consequences. i was not surprised to be told by the chief whip that i had had the whip taken
away from me. i am therefore un—person in the eyes of the conservative party, but i will remain the independent member of parliament for mid sussex until the next election, and i will carry on asa next election, and i will carry on as a member of parliament. a lot of your colleagues have said they were disgusted in the way that you were treated. former chancellors, the father of the house, kenneth clark, do you feel like that?” father of the house, kenneth clark, do you feel like that? i think there are consequences to doing things like that. i don't think i matter, but i would take the whip away from the former counsellor of the house, several members of the previous government is an unprecedented and extremely foolish and crass act. and i'm afraid it will rebound on them. it sends such a stupid and u nfortu nate message to it sends such a stupid and unfortunate message to our supporters and would—be voters in the country that what was once a broad, tolerant church has become a narrow sect. do you think that is what has happened, or do you think this is temporary? i think it is a
phase, i regret that it's a phase, i think it is part of this relentless chase to be the brexit party. and i'm afraid — even if i was going to stand again, i couldn't possibly stand again, i couldn't possibly stand on an election of no deal. so ifear stand on an election of no deal. so i fear that it has become a bit of a sect, which is a pity because i know the prime minister. he's actually essentially a one nation torrey. 0n other plans i'm shoulder to shoulder with him. and i'm sorry we should've fallen out like this. that's what strikes me, others talk about boris johnson is a one nation tory. how has this been allowed to happen?” think he's been ill advised on this. he feels that the only thing that matters is to conclude this by getting an absolutely complicit party who are utterly united in no deal. the tory party is not united
on no deal, neither is the house because many of us know the consequences are very serious, consequences are very serious, indeed. consequences are very serious, indeed. i want an orderly, negotiated transition, which will not inflict pain and damage on the uk economy, our security, not inflict pain and damage on the uk economy, oursecurity, nor our integrity as a nation. and i think we should get over the and canonic impact, we will get over the bumps in the road. but they will affect the least advantaged in our lives, as these things always do. but what really worries me, frankly, is that britain's stock in the world is in freefall. and i'm afraid our position in world affairs will be greatly diminished by this. and i find it sad that after being a parliament that was a major player, we will end up in a poor position. what about the flip side of that? some look at the last three years and say parliament has failed, there was a referendum, it had to be honoured, we have to leave the eu —
but actually the parliamentary system itself has not work here?” think you're right. i voted for the withdrawal bill on each occasion that it has come to the house of commons, because i believe we have to honour the referendum. i voted more often to leave the eu then borisjohnson, the more often to leave the eu then boris johnson, the leader of more often to leave the eu then borisjohnson, the leader of the house, and half the members of the cabinet. but there hasn't been the will to do it, and we are a parliamentary democracy. in parliamentary democracy. in parliament feels that this is not the right way to go about it, and that will lead to a clash between the executive and parliament. and such clashes are inevitable when very, very big interests are at sta ke. very, very big interests are at stake. the referendum being called, do you think a referendum is the way to sort out these things? not personally, no. curse myself the rest of my life that i voted for the referendum. i think parliament should decide these big issues, people elect these members of parliament to decide these big issues. because it was a referendum
ina way, issues. because it was a referendum in a way, it sort of mould around like a great title wave over our political affairs. he is now sitting as an independent mp, who would've thought that? let me show you some pictures — do we have the pictures from college green? no, i will tell you there is a rally going on at couege you there is a rally going on at college green right now, there are a number of protesters out here today. sajid javit, the london mayor, and there is david let me stage, they have been addressing several hundred people today on the green, but 20 going on around the palace at westminster this evening. well, our correspondent, damian grammaticas, who's in brussels has been trying to find out, during the day, if any progress has been made by britain in its talks with the eu over brexit, as boris johnson has claimed. david frost, the prime minister's chief eu adviser, was here, was at the european commission. he left there a short time ago. as he came out, we tried to ask them questions, we said, "has there been any progress"? no answer.
"is this a sham, as has been said?" again, no answer. he got in his car and drove off. we were told he had been discussing with the eu side issues around the back stop, around the political declaration, around a free—trade agreement that borisjohnson says he wants. that was all the hints of what might be going on that we could tell. but my reading from that, what you have to see in that — the commission said today nothing new was presented this morning. this afternoon, if those things are what was discussed doesn't amount to anything new, either. it amounts to problems in trying to get an agreement with the eu because in all of those things are areas where borisjohnson wants the agreement that's on the table change, but that makes it harder to solve the issue around ireland. so i think that sounds like going backwards, not forwards in this process.
and those are the only signs of movement we've seen in brussels today. donald trump has been speaking in the past hour and was asked about brexit. well boris is a friend of mine and he's going at it, no question about that. he's in there, i watched in this morning. he's in there fighting. and he knows how to win. boris knows how to win. don't worry about him, he'll be ok. he has to get to the election first. joining me now is nigel nelson, political editor for the sunday mirror, and kevin schofield, editor of the political news website, politics home. welcome to you both. first let's talk about the motion the government will bring forward this evening for an early general election. i was looking at the figures and under the fixed term parliament act, they would need two thirds of the mps, 434 - would need two thirds of the mps, 434 — without labour, 403. they are short. what happens then? downing
street are keeping their cards fairly close to their taste. dust chest. they have an announcement coming up. one announced that they haveis coming up. one announced that they have is to introduce a one line the act which would need 50% plus one of the mps to pass, which lowers the threshold and makes it a bit easier. the question then is timing, when to bring that forward? there's also the option they were discussing earlier on of bringing back and other motion under the fix and parliament act on monday. if you remember parliament next week is due to prorogue and be suspended for five weeks, so they need to move quickly. there's always the chance to bring it back again and have another go. by that stage, the bill will have passed and received royal assent. so they think at that point there will be more pressure on labour to support a general election. it's the nature of
how everyone is trying to double guess the other side that they think that if they bring forward a short bill, that might be amendable and they might get into a hawk with that. and if you bring back the fixed term parliament motion, will a speaker allow it? that's a good question. at the moment, here we have the fixed term parliament act in itself messing up the constitution when david cameron brought in. and now they don't even wa nt brought in. and now they don't even want to obey that. so the idea of a short billjust want to obey that. so the idea of a short bill just completely want to obey that. so the idea of a short billjust completely throw that out. where do you think labour is up to with this? there's been lots on social media today laying back clips ofjeremy corbyn saying to bring on the election, and now some disagreement within the labour party about whether they actually wa nted party about whether they actually wanted this month. we are getting no indication from the leaders office itself exactly where he is going. but talking to a load of labour mps this afternoon, they are keen to postpone the election until after 31
october. basically their argument is that that is the way to do two things — one is you can guarantee a no deal for the next three months and the negotiations. the second is it would bring down borisjohnson's government, that he has set his entire partnership on delivering drugs on 31 october. if he doesn't do that, then he's off. can he achieve that? or would he be fundamentally breaking his promise, allowing the brexit party to steal a margin? he would have to be removed from office, but his credibility would be shot to bits. he said on numerous occasions that we will leave do or die, come what may on 31 october. the opposition party has managed to get through 310ctober and we are still in the eu, then it is very difficult to see how
politically borisjohnson could survive. also we have a huge boost for the brexit party, we could turn around and see —— they broken their promises, vote for us instead. strategically what you both described sounds eminently sensible. why is the leaders office thinking it might press ahead? they've been backed into a corner completely. you're talking about the tory leaders office. know, labour. why is jeremy corbyn of the mind that he will go on monday... at the moment we haven't heard from jeremy corbyn's office whether he is for or against it. he seems to indicate last night that once the bill is there... i think —— last night that once the bill is there... ithink -- i last night that once the bill is there... i think -- i think things have changed last night. he wants to get the bill through, which is what he said with a priority. then get an election after that. now through today, because things are moving so quickly and they are actively talking about why do that? why not
make sure we have our extension, and especially about getting rid of borisjohnson? what especially about getting rid of boris johnson? what would especially about getting rid of borisjohnson? what would happen then is aside from the brexit party, then is aside from the brexit party, the tory party might need a new leader of. there is a clear split between karas, and jeremy corbyn. he says we should not back anything until this ripple bill is supplemented, not until 19 october. whatjeremy corbyn's spokesperson was saying earlier today was that we don't have to wait until the end, we canjust wait don't have to wait until the end, we can just wait until it has passed and gotten royal assent, which could be as soon as friday. so that is where the split is, that would allow the election to take place on 15 october, whereas the other proposal it means it couldn't take place until after 31 october. what is number one thinking? what will be on the manifesto —— number ten. they say they are leaving on