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tv   BBC News  BBC News  September 4, 2019 8:00pm-9:01pm BST

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does the leader of the opposition wa nt does the leader of the opposition want a general election? a yes or no will suffice. while he obviously didn't hear but ijust said. i was about to point out before i was gently interrupted by the honourable member that the offer of the election today is a bit like the offer of an apple to snow white and the wicked queen. because what he's offering is not an apple or even an election, but the poison of a no deal. so, mr speaker, i repeat what isaid deal. so, mr speaker, i repeat what i said last night — let this bill pass and gain royal assent. then we will back an election so we do not
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crash outwith a no deal exit from the european union. and so it is the anti—democratic instincts of this government that causes concern, despite the expressed will of the house, the support of the bill debated today, the conservative peers, their colleagues in the lords have tabled 92 amendments for debate. i really doubt this is motivated by to improve the legislation — not a bit of it, but to filibuster it. an undemocratic cabal in downing street aligned with an undemocratic and unelected house to override the democratic will of this house expressed in the bill that we have just given a third reading too. if they can't win the argument, they try to shut down debate. we have the prime minister deciding
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to prorogue parliament in august, and today he wants to dissolve parliament to shut down scrutiny. he cannot handle dissent and debate in his own party, and has extraordinarily expelled 21 of his owfi extraordinarily expelled 21 of his own mps who voted against him last night. the hypocrisy of this process is phenomenal. from a prime minister who twice voted against the last prime minister's brexit plans. a general election is not a plaything for a prime minister to avoid his obligations, to dodge scrutiny or renege on commitments. he has committed to renegotiate brexit, but where is it? where is the plan, where is it? where is the plan, where are the proposals? if he has a brexit plan, be it no deal or the new mystery proposal deal that we've yet to see any information of, then he should put it before the public
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ina public he should put it before the public in a public vote, a referendum or a general election, and seek a mandate for them. let the general election, and seek a mandate forthem. let the prime general election, and seek a mandate for them. let the prime minister go to brussels tomorrow and ask for an extension so that he can seek a mandate for his unknown brexit plan and put it before the people. the truth, mr speaker, is that this motion from the prime minister is about playing a disingenuous game thatis about playing a disingenuous game that is unworthy of his office. i look forward to the day his government and his party and all of the austerity and misery they have heaped on this country are turfed out of office and we prevent this country crashing out on the 31st of october with all the damage he knows, because he has already seen the documents, it will do to people's lives and job prospects in this country. it is a cynical move
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from a cynical prime minister. cheering mr kenneth clarke. i don't know if the house wants a debate, i will be very brief but i was going to join if other people were going to debate, mr speaker, thank you for encouraging me, but to the deep distress of everybody is having a very important vote. i have to say i found these exchanges quite predictable, they have been well rehearsed before they took place. i do think the prime minister with the greatest of respect has a tremendous skill in keeping a straight face whilst he is being so disingenuous. applause the fact is he is now desperate to have an election in order to bring this house's proceedings to an end and to have the general election clearly before october 31, and he's obviously going to campaign before that on the basis that he's been
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thwarted in getting an amazing, beneficial deal for this country, which has actually been blocked by wicked continental politicians and by politicians and the mps in the house of commons who have no sense of the true national interest, which is to keep him in power. laughter and it is wrong to say that the opposition to him is trying to reverse the referendum. a very large percentage of those who've been defeating him in the last two days are prepared to vote for brexit. they voted for brexit more often than he has. it cause delay in march and he cause delay in april, and where you wish to do so on satisfactory and reasonable terms full stop we now have a bill which is the beginning of a pathway to actually give us more time for
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grown—up, sensible, diplomatic exchanges. the idea that in the european union that they are refusing us a deal because, you know, they really think they're going to trap us in permanently is nonsense. they are desperate to get a deal, of course they are desperate to get a deal, but not so desperate that they are going to accept terms, which will cause chaos in northern ireland, politically and economically, and will shatter the normal rules which hold together the single market and the customs union upon which they are based. the prime minister has thrown down dramatic conditions which he must now make any sensible negotiation is pointless, unless he changes his direction. he is now prime minister. he is now a responsible politician,
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with huge responsibility. i urge him one last time to stop treating all this as a game, and to use the time to actually get a serious resolution of these impossible problems to look after the future goodwill of this country, keeping us as a proper no doubt different relationship with oui’ doubt different relationship with our partners on the continent, and in particular keeping our economic and trading relationships intact, because they are essential for the future of our children and grandchildren. thank you, mr speaker. can i congratulate with all my heart the right honourable member for rushcliffe, who i have to say, as he has done on many occasions when i have followed him, spoken with great sense, and i have to say
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to the prime minister, i will give you a piece of friendly advice, prime minister, sack your adviser dominic cummings and bring in the right honourable member for rushcliffe. he might actually be able to give you some sensible advice. mr speaker, we are having this debate tonight quite simply because the prime minister's been defeated. that's the reality. my question to the prime minister is this house is supposed to be sovereign, in his eyes, accept the will of this house, i accept the bill that parliament has passed, accept your duty as prime minister and go to the european council on the 17th of october and negotiate the 17th of october and negotiate the extension that you have now been told to deliver. mr speaker, yet again this government has been defeated by a majority in the house of commons against a no—deal brexit. the passage of the bill tonight to block no deal is a victory, notjust
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for democracy, but yes, for common sense. and i pay tribute to the members of parliament across these benches who have worked tirelessly to build consensus for this legislation to pass and remove the cliff edge catastrophe. mr speaker, the prime minister should not be talking about surrender, he should be congratulating members of parliament that have stood up for all our national interest, and really, what a disgrace for a prime minister to accuse parliamentarians, decent parliamentarians of surrender. it simply lacks dignity, prime minister. mr speaker, now parliament has once again displayed its well, the prime minister must show respect for democracy, and agree to abide by the will of parliament in the bill blocking no deal. if you wish to intervene, rather than shouting at me, i will give you the courtesy. jeering.
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rather than shouting at me, i will give you the courtesy. jeering. i've been listening to the honourable gentleman with great care but the one thing he doesn't say in all of this that the reason he has voted tonight for this bill is because he and his party are adamantly opposed to ever delivering brexit. so will he now admit on his feet that that is his purpose and that is the purpose of this bill? my heavens, mr speaker, i think it is quite clear if anyone reads the bill what it's about. it's about removing the cliff edge of the 31st of october, and yes, we in the snp have worked with collea g u es yes, we in the snp have worked with colleagues right around this house, we have worked in the spirit of consensus, but yes, of course, i wish to stop brexit and scotland being dragged out, and i say this to
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the right honourable gentleman that we will work collectively with everybody here, but i have a responsibility with my colleagues to stop this government dragging scotla nd stop this government dragging scotland out of europe against its will, and the message to the prime minister and the right honourable gentleman, will you respect democracy in scotland, and will you respect that scotland has voted to remain in the european union? mr speaker, it is the smp‘s top priority to avoid no deal. we know the devastation a no—deal brexit would bring to people in scotland and across these islands. that's why we've been working hard for the past two years to avoid no deal. snp mps have voted consistently against no deal. we have supported the letwin cooper process in march to avoid a no deal and now we are doing the same with the benn bill. thank you very much. i welcome the honourable
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member's confirmation tonight that the right honourable member's confirmation tonight that he will along with ourselves and the labour party vote against the government, but if the government continues to pursue this reckless no deal policy, will you continue to work with us to block any attempt to take us off the cliff edge against the will of parliament? the simple answer is yes. i commit myself to working with all others because we have a responsibility to our constituents to stop that disaster of no deal, andindeed to stop that disaster of no deal, and indeed i have been working with leaders of other parties to ensure that the benn bill passes tonight. we've come together to ensure protecting the lives of people across the united kingdom and their livelihoods is the absolute priority of this parliament, and it is important, mr speaker, that we keep working together. mr speaker, no one voted for a no—deal brexit. it
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wasn't on the ballot paper, and the prime minister needs to wake up to that reality and perhaps, prime minister, you might actually start listening to the debate rather than chatting to the chancellor, if you don't mind? it is important that no tricks are deployed through the course of democracy over the coming days, and you can try and shout us down, you tried last night, and it won't work. the unelected house of lords should not under any circumstances seek to damage or kill the protections and legislations, and the prime minister should quit gameplaying stunts. the snp will not fall for them. mr speaker, the scottish national party is ready for an election. we stand ready to bring down the tory government and give scotla nd down the tory government and give scotland a chance to stop brexit and
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decide its own future. we signal our intent to work with all across this house to stop a no—deal brexit. it is in all our interest to do so. but i also say to this house we will do our duty to protect all of us from a no—deal brexit but at the same time this house should respect the sovereignty of the scottish people and our rights to be able to determine our own future.|j and our rights to be able to determine our own future. i don't know if he noted last night the lack of enthusiasm from the scottish conservatives for this early general election, it might have something to do with the fact that they are now at 20% in the polls and due to be decimated. if they vote for this tonight it would be voting like turkeys for christmas, and if ruth davidson can't stomach the prime minister, why should scotland? my honourable friend is quite right, andi honourable friend is quite right, and i look forward to snp challenges standing at the scottish tory seats, and we will take the fight to those
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constituents over the course of the coming weeks and make sure those constituents have that opportunity to return those seats to the scottish national party. mr speaker, much of this debate has been about democracy. it was about the abuse of power by the government seeking to shut down parliament for stop this house must respect the scottish parliament and in particular the mandate the scottish government has for a referendum on independence. it should be scotland's right to choose its own future, not the right of this prime minister or any other in westminster to tell scotland that our votes do not matter, that we cannot determine when scotland votes in an independence referendum. mr speaker, an election is coming, and i invite scotland to send a message to westminster. it is scotland's right to choose. the times poll
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today shows the smp is set to win a majority in westminster‘s seats in any election. make no mistake, mr speaker, we relish an election because we want to stop brexit for good. we want to stop the tories, to stop this prime minister, and most importantly we want to give the people a say, their choice to decide their own future. however, mr speaker, we will not be party to the prime minister's games and allow the prime minister's games and allow the prime minister's games and allow the prime minister to use an election to force a no—deal brexit through the back door. simply put, the snp cannot support this motion tonight because we do not trust the prime minister, and who could blame us? his tall tales, his contempt for democracy and his government's broken promises to the people of scotland. we cannot trust that he will allow this bill to pass and remove the cliff edge before an election. and i and other opposition
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parties, tonight we will not give the prime minister the opportunity to bring in a no deal through the back door, but we cannot allow a government that has lost its majority, that does not command the house, that has treated this parliament and this country with contempt, to remain in office one more day longer than is necessary. the prime minister is going to shut this parliament down so he can spend four weeks running the clock down. we could instead use that time to run him out of office. once a no deal has been blocked, mps across this house, on the opposition benches, should come together to bring down this government, not on the prime minister's terms but on the prime minister's terms but on the right terms. mr speaker, time is of the offence. —— of the essence. the next few days to remove the cliff edge and this shambolic
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incompetent tory government from office. mr speaker, ithinkl have an apology to make, and that is to brenda from bristol. on a personal basis i think i have onlyjust got over the 2015 election. we need to ask ourselves what can this parliament now achieve? can it deliver that hold parliament now achieve? can it deliver that bold new agenda that a new prime minister wishes to place for this country? would this parliament even approve a bold and ambitious queen's speech to put on to statute in the future? would it prove a queen's speech to put those 20,000 new police on the streets and to strengthen our criminaljustice system ? to strengthen our criminaljustice system? the to strengthen our criminaljustice system ? the answer to strengthen our criminaljustice system? the answer must be no, or it must at least be rather doubtful. there could be an issue of confidence if a queen's speech is voted down, so this place is
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possibly only putting off a fateful day. mr speaker, what we have seen this afternoon is more of the same ofa this afternoon is more of the same of a moribund parliament. while the public simply shakes its head at dismay at what is going on in this place. mr speaker, it is bizarre, there are those in this house who will not countenance leaving the european union without a deal. i will give way. it is very clear that the prime minister wants a cut and run general election, and surely if he loses the vote tonight that he has called, as he has lost many other votes, the prime minister should simply follow his convictions and resign, go, but no, we know he once cut and run before the disaster that's coming. he will be last to the tiller and last to disaster and he should know that. certainly hope he should know that. certainly hope he will be supporting this tonight
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so that people can make their as well. has my honourable friend ever had so many people opposite us for the last two years crying out for an early election? the prime minister is now giving them that opportunity and they are running scared. they are running scared, notjust from their prime minister notjust from their prime minister notjust from the next general election, but they are running scared from the people of this country who in 2016 said they wanted to leave the european union, and it is the people opposite denying them that opportunity to leave the eu, does he agree with me that if the british people are given the chance to have an early general election that the conservative party will win that election?” election that the conservative party will win that election? i thank my honourable friend for that very powerful intervention, i couldn't agree with him more. to get back on track, there are those in that place
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he will not countenance leaving without a deal, and it is quite strange, isn't it? they are the same people who go to their local market every week, and they will walk away from that trade if the price isn't right or the quality isn't right. i would ask the leader of the opposition, i've got a rusty old heap of a car, it's yours for £15,000. i'm sure he willjust take it without looking at it any further. but when this house was presented with a withdrawal agreement by the previous administration, i obviously voted against it because i felt it was a lousy, rotten deal, i don't need to put those objections further tonight. but there are others, and i'm looking at them, i'm looking at those many others, who voted against that deal, the now—defunct withdrawal agreement, because of pure party politics. let me make
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progress. they claimed they wanted a deal. as we know, that withdrawal agreement gave the vassal edge and the perpetual homage to the eu that many of them now seem to crave. studio: so we will keep watching that debate. there is 90 minutes in the schedule for a debate on the premise to bring a general election. did you wasjustjoining us, let me bring you up—to—date with what has happened so far in a very eventful day. the prime minister defeated three times in the last 2a hours, twice today on the reading of the bill, this is the bill to ta ke of the bill, this is the bill to take no deal of the table, and the last vote, which took place just over half an hour ago, the government lost by 28 votes, 327 against 299 supporting the third reading of the bill to ta ke the third reading of the bill to take no deal of the table and force the prime minister to go back to brussels and asked for an extension if there is no agreement by 19th october, something he says of course
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he will not do, which is why he has brought this general election motion this evening. in his comments he said the effect of this bill is to ta ke said the effect of this bill is to take the right of this country to determine how long it remains in the eu and hand it to the eu. we had responses from jeremy corbyn of labour and responses from jeremy corbyn of labourand ian responses from jeremy corbyn of labour and ian blackford of the snp, who say they won't be voting for the motion this afternoon —— this evening because they don't trust the prime minister, that either he won't change the date of the election to ta ke change the date of the election to take britain out of the eu without a deal and until they have this bill through, they are going to stop him in his efforts to get an election. let me introduce you to bridget fowler, senior researcher at the hands of society, and joe climate, director of the polling company, delta pole. thank you for being so patient. bear with us if we have to go back for the vote. let's just talk first of all if we could, bridget, about what happened on the committee stage of the bill this
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evening, because there were amendments put forward to the bill which are quite important. yes, one amendment in particular appears to have gone through and that was stephen kinnock‘s amendment. he, as i understand it, he wants to avoid a situation where the uk and the eu agreed to extend the article 50 period and then nothing happens. he wa nts to period and then nothing happens. he wants to make sure that if the article 50 period is extended, that would be used by the uk to pass the withdrawal agreement or a withdrawal agreement. let's listen to jo swinson. that we voted to say there should not be a no deal exit. is he seriously saying that the extent of his plan was to try to bully the eu and that he could only get a good deal by threatening we would leave
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without a deal? because if that is the extent of his plan, it is not very well thought through.|j the extent of his plan, it is not very well thought through. i thank the honourable lady forgiving way. can she confirm if there was a general election the liberal democrats would be putting in their ma nifesto a democrats would be putting in their manifesto a pledge to revoke article 50? it is of no surprise to the honourable lady that the liberal democrats want to stop brexit. we have been crystal clear on the stopping brexit, and for all of our different views on different sides of the house about that, i don't think anyone can accuse us of not being straightforward about where we stand. in terms of the negotiation... i have already given away. in terms of the negotiation, the prime minister says that he now can't do this negotiation because we are taking no deal of the table, but we know there are not serious negotiations anyway. the word
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disingenuous was used by the father of the house and i think it is accurate. the prime minister has wanted the job that he has for so long, it has been almost painful to watch. he has been prepared to say anything and do anything to get that job, and he said... i've given way. he has said we will get a great deal. well, now he has the job. that is the job. go and get a great deal. but he knows that he wasjust is the job. go and get a great deal. but he knows that he was just saying whatever came into his head to get the job. he knows he cannot get the great deal, because there is no such thing as a great brexit deal, and he is scared of being found out. i have already given way to somebody on his
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benches. i am going to say what i wa nt benches. i am going to say what i want to say. the way i think this is best resolved is by putting this issue to the people in a people's vote to decide on the brexit way forward , vote to decide on the brexit way forward, because i do not believe there is a majority in this country for any specific type of brexit deal. i'm not even convinced there isa deal. i'm not even convinced there is a majority in the conservative party for any type of brexit deal. but, but, we could have a general election, but i say to the prime minister, such an election should be held ina minister, such an election should be held in a responsible, calm and orderly way, not with the threat of crashing outwith no deal either during the campaign or in the immediate aftermath. so if he wants an election, extend article 50 for the purposes of having a general
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election and bring it on. and if he's not prepared to do that, don't be surprised when people are not fooled by his tactics and vote against him. mr speaker, there is one purpose in denying this motion tonight, and that is to ensure that the british people have no say what ever over what takes place at the european council on the 17th of october, isn't it? thank you very much, mr speaker. i think it's very important that in this debate we are all very minded of the language that we use, and it has been concerning that honourable and right honourable members opposite, including our prime
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minister, has chosen to use the word "fruit" and "frightened" of those of us "fruit" and "frightened" of those of us who believe that the last thing this country needs is a general election —— the words "frit". given everything that has happened in the last few years, there are a number of people in this place of whom they could not be accused of being frightened. in fact, could not be accused of being frightened. infact, it's could not be accused of being frightened. in fact, it's taken a lot of courage for some people. and if honourable members opposite are familiar with courage, they might wa nt to familiar with courage, they might want to talk to some of those honourable members who they have just booted out of their own party, decent long serving, hugely loyal long serving member is of the conservative party who last night and again today chose to put their constituents and their country first. and the price they have paid is to see the end of their
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parliamentary career, and this house is right, mr speaker, to commend each and every one of them for the considerable courage that they took. mr speaker, i considerable courage that they took. mrspeaker, lam considerable courage that they took. mr speaker, i am in considerable courage that they took. mr speaker, lam in no considerable courage that they took. mr speaker, i am in no doubt whatsoever that it is notjust the people of broxtowe, but the people of this country who are thoroughly fed up to the back teeth with brexit. that's why i am of the firm view that the matter of brexit must be brought to a conclusion. there are people in this place who will know, in the many cross—party conversations that we've had, and i'm proud that we've worked together, across parties, putting aside normal differences, again in the country's interests, that my view that any extension should not go beyond certainly january, view that any extension should not go beyond certainlyjanuary, may be february of next year because of the profound need that we must bring
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this matter to a conclusion. and thatis this matter to a conclusion. and that is one of the conclusions... i'll give way in a moment. that's one reason why i don't believe a general election is the answer at all because it won't solve the brexit crisis. i'll give way. all because it won't solve the brexit crisis. i'll give wayl thank her. the second part of the bill she just approved actually handed power to the eu to dictate whatever extension they wanted. i'm so sorry to tell the honourable lady, but she's been reading something different to the rest of us something different to the rest of us because it most absolutely does not. the bill has been carefully drafted to make sure it is in the interests of our country that we ta ke interests of our country that we take no deal off the table because that's the best thing for the country. i'm happy to take an intervention rather than her shouting at me. the bill isn't about
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stopping brexit, as many of us would like to do, but about stopping no deal, for the reasons that have been explained. will she agree with me that actually a no—deal brexit is no way out of the brexit conundrum. it will bring years of difficulties and it is dishonest, not right to say that they know deal brexit is going to solve the brexit issue. the honourable lady is right, and she is not only write about no deal committee is also right that the former prime minister's withdrawal agreement wouldn't have ended the disagreement because it was a blindfolded brexit that wouldn't have determined our future trading relationship with the eu. my views are well—known. i believe the only way out of the crisis is to have a people's vote. at the deal that the former prime minister... well, it wasn't ideal, it was something, put it to the british people with remain
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on the ballot paper and get the matter over. i believe the british people have changed their minds. i think they are seeing brexit for what it is and given the opportunity, they would vote for the best deal, which is the current deal we have with the european union. that's another good reason why the battle should go back to the british people by way of a people's vote. anna soubry making her points on the debate this evening. this is the motion to bring a general election, which the prime minister has put to the house, on the 15th of october. it's under the terms of the fixed—term parliaments act. what the house of commons would have to do is give him a two thirds majority for that. as you been hearing from the opposition, it doesn't look like he's going to get the votes. here with me now is brigid fowler, a senior researcher at the political research group the hansard society and joe twyman, director of polling company deltapoll.
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it seemed, listening to the opposition benches, that they aren't going to support this evening. what other options might boris diaw have if he wanted to force an election? —— boris johnson. if he wanted to force an election? -- boris johnson. there are two ways, one is winning a motion such as that that he has tabled this evening. the other is for somebody to move a motion of no—confidence in the government and to win a motion of no confidence in the government, and for the house of commons to fail to pass for a fortnight a motion of confidence and then you end up with a general election triggered by default. that's another route, in theory. obviously that was conceived as something the opposition would do, not the government. another alternative being talked about is for the government to amend the fixed—term parliaments act itself. ina fixed—term parliaments act itself. in a short bill. in theory you could pass a short bill that says,
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notwithstanding what the fixed—term parliaments act says, we, the house of commons, want an early general election on this date. listening to ian blackford, the snp mp, he wants that election but he wants the bill to go through this week, taking no deal off the table. as long as he has an assurance that an election isn't going to lead to the uk leaving without a deal, they would support it. do you anticipate that next week, when the deal has royal assent, then the bill might come forward ? assent, then the bill might come forward? it's possible. everyone is doing these intricate calculations about the sequencing and timing of things in the middle of october and the second half of october about what can be done and when. another provision under the fixed—term parliaments act isn'tjust about how you trigger an election, it's about when an election is, how long the election period is. the act says
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that there must be 25 working days between dissolving parliament and holding the general election. so if we wanted, anybody who wants to hold a general election by around mid—october, they need to dissolve parliament next week under the act as it currently stands. that would need to be something else you could change if you are going to do a short bill. joe, you are going to be busy! looks like it! looks like we're gearing up for election season. where are the polls at the moment? most are pointing to the conservatives at about 35% and a double—figure lead over the labour party. in normal times that would be good enough to expect a majority of 20-30 if a good enough to expect a majority of 20—30 if a general election were held with that result. these are far from normal times and for the general election to take place there would need to be a campaign. we saw
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in 2017 what kind of impact that could have on people's voting intentions. brexit is casting a shadow over everything that's happening. essentially an election presents an enormous risk to the two main parties because neither one can guarantee victory. labour are behind in the polls and the tories are looking at areas like london, scotland and metropolitan cities and university towns, leaning towards remain, and they are the places they have to hold onto seats. if they lose seats there, where does the majority come from? difficult to see. the challenge is that they have to pick up 20—30 seats in the midlands and north, where there are labour constituencies that have voted leave but tend to be loyal to their party. yes, in many cases labour are leading by a big their party. yes, in many cases labourare leading bya big margin and if the tories are up against the brexit party as well, splitting the leave road, it may be difficult.
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scotland, 13 conservative seats. legislate a loft —— let's say they lost ten after the loss of ruth davidson, they have to pick up ten seats in england and walesjust as they where they are at the moment, a minority government. difficult situation. at the same time, labour are not in a strong position given that they are behind in the polls and must pick up a number of seats in many areas just to get and must pick up a number of seats in many areasjust to get past and must pick up a number of seats in many areas just to get past the conservatives in the first place. what happens during the election period in terms of the negotiations in brussels? parliament is no longer sitting. can the government, can borisjohnson continued negotiations while campaigning around the country, or does everything stop? there are partly practical constraints on people who physically can't be in two places at once. if you have ministers who are meant to be campaigning it is difficult for them to do other business. there are also constraints in the election
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period about what the civil service can and cannot do, which may come into play. there's also the political constraint which i think would affect brussels. 0ne political constraint which i think would affect brussels. one of the difficulties for brussels has been that they want to know that the person they are negotiating with from the uk can get whatever they negotiate through at home. in the election campaign, the point of that is that you may have a different bunch of people in the commons. so it's quite difficult to actually do negotiations during a campaign. you may think there is brexit fatigue around the country but i can tell you from our viewing figures on the bbc and fellow broadcasting stations, the figures are way up. people are paying a lot of attention to this. 100,000 registrations to vote in the last 48—hour is, so there's a lot of interest. it seems many young people are registering to vote. that's what the evidence
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suggests, but it's also young people who tend not to be on the register in the first place, so they tend to be higher in these circumstances. it's important not to get over excited by these indicators. turnout is going to be crucially important if there is an election but we have seen many fluctuations, since the highs of the 90s, and in the 2000s they went down and have picked up. but we don't know where it will go. there's a lot of evidence that people are tired of brexit but at the same time they want to get it over and done with. they see what's happening now as a possible opportunity to deliver. if that doesn't occur and if it's dragged out further, if people feeljust satisfied, that may have an impact on the outcome. we'll come to the labour strategy in a moment but in terms of how borisjohnson approaches this, saying we need to get it done, is he right and is the
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message going to be effective in uniting the leave vote around the country? he's doing two things, he's presenting this possible election in the context of people versus parliament, so he wants to repeat many of the techniques used by vote leaving the eu referendum campaign, the elites against the ordinary people and he puts himself as the people and he puts himself as the people against parliament, frustrating him and his plans but he wants to present the election itself isa hard wants to present the election itself is a hard choice between his deal or no deal versus a government by jeremy corbyn. he hopes that some of the remain leaning conservatives will reluctantly, perhaps bitterly, hold their nose and potentially vote for no deal if it meansjeremy corbyn is kept out of number ten. on the labour strategy, they've been trying to straddle two positions, remain and brexit, for a couple of yea rs. remain and brexit, for a couple of years. it seems they'll go for a
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referendum in their manifesto. is it going to work? polls suggest that the strategic ambiguity they've adopted isn't working. i expect during the campaign, if it happened, they'd have to come down on one side or the other and i expect it to be remain. there has been some concern and we heard it expressed tonight that the prime minister might change the date of the election. if it was set down in the short bill you've been talking about, would it be set in stone and can he get around it? if it's in the law, then it is in the law and one hopes that whether or not the prime minister or anybody else obeys it is not an issue. that would stand unless and until it was repealed or amended. but it's worth making the point, and others have made it here, if he's returned with a majority before october the 31st and the power to take the uk out without a deal is his. yes. you
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could repeal the bill. without a deal is his. yes. you could repealthe bill. once you've got a commons majority, you could... he could campaign in his manifesto the way he has campaign so far and he could take britain out without a deal on october the 31st? in theory, yes. 0ne deal on october the 31st? in theory, yes. one of the main issues would be how much time there is left between the putative general election and the putative general election and the end of october. if it because setting up a new parliament takes time, passing a new bill takes time and matters are getting tight timewise. if the bill is to get royal assent, i know there are many amendments putting forward in the lords, there will be a lot of prevarication, but we've got to get the end of the bill before the election, when could that happen? the lords were debating today a so—called business motion. if it goes through, the bill is going to finish in the lords by the end of friday. they were debating it before we came on—air. we could be done by
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the end of the week, yeah. fascinating insights, thank you. so let's remind you of the main developments here at westminster where draft legislation, designed to stop borisjohnson pursuing a no—deal brexit has passed its final hurdle in the commons. mps approved the bill, which would force borisjohnson to seek another delay from the eu, by a majority of 28. the proposals will now go to the house of lords. borisjohnson has now proposed a motion calling for a general election on october 15th. the right honourable ‘s gentleman bill takes away the right of the country how long it must remain in the eu and handed that power to the eu. and i'm afraid it is time...
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that is what it does, and i'm afraid it is time for this country to decide whether that is right. the country must now decide whether the leader of the opposition or i go to the negotiations in brussels on the 17th of october to sort this out. everybody will know that if the right honourable gentleman were to 90, right honourable gentleman were to go, were to be the prime minister, he would beg for an extension, he would accept whatever brussels demands, and we would have years more dithering and delay, more arguments over brexit, and no resolution to the uncertainty that currently bedevils this country and our economy. everyone knows, by contrast, that if i am prime minister, i will go to brussels and i will try to get a deal. i know i
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can geta i will try to get a deal. i know i can get a deal. mr speaker, if they won't do a deal, and i think it would be eminently sensible for them to do one, and i believe they will, then under any circumstances, this country will leave the eu on october the 31st. mr speaker, it is impossible for the government to function if the house of commons refuses to pass anything that the government proposes and in my view, and the view of this government, there must now be an election on tuesday the 15th of october, and i invite the right honourable gentleman to respond to decide which of goes as prime minister to that crucial council on thursday the 17th of october. i think it's very sad that mps have voted like this. i
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know, i think it's a great dereliction of their derelict —— democratic duty. if i am prime minister after the 15th of october, then we will leave on the 31st with, i hope, then we will leave on the 31st with, ihope, a then we will leave on the 31st with, i hope, a much better deal. the labour leader, jeremy corbyn accused the prime minister of offering the "poison of a no deal" if they can't win the argument, they try and shutdown debate. we have the prime minister deciding to prorogue parliament in august and today he wants to dissolve it to shutdown scrutiny. he cannot handle descent and debate in his own party, and as extraordinarily dispelled 20 ones —— expelled 21 of his own mps who voted
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against him tonight. the hypocrisy of this process is phenomenal. from a prime minister who twice voted against the last try minister's brexit plans. a general election isn't a plaything for a prime minister to avoid his obligations, to dodge scrutiny or renege on commitments. he is committed to renegotiate brexit, but where is it? where is the plan? where are the proposals? if he has a brexit plan, be it no deal or the new mystery proposal deal that we've yet to see any information on, then he should put it to the public in a public vote, a referendum or a general election and seek a mandate for them. let the prime minister go to brussels tomorrow and ask for an extension so that he can seek a mandate for his unknown brexit plan and put it before the people. the
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truth is that this motion from the prime minister is about playing a disingenuous game, unworthy of his office. i look forward to the day his government and his party and all the austerity and misery that they've heaped on the country are turfed out of office and we prevent this country crashing out on the 31st of october with all the damage he knows, because he's seen the documents, it will do to people's lives and job prospects in the country. it's a cynical move from a cynical ploy minister. jeremy corbyn earlier. the debate continues and we'll bring you the vote when it takes place. 0ur chief political correspondent, vicki young in the central lobby of the houses of parliament. we've been speaking to a pollster about the polling and he told us that it's an enormous gamble for the
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tories. 0ur this summer on the backbenches who are worried that not only will they lose the election but they might lose brexit? yes, i mean, that's always the concern. as we know, things are incredibly volatile. going for an election of course has risks for both sides. that's why you can see this playing out in the way that it has. i was johnson is probably feeling... he cannot go to the country in a general election if he hasn't delivered brexit. if he does it earlier than he will go on a mandate to say that he will come out on october the 31st, come what may come and presumably hoping to get votes from those who defected to the brexit party. all sorts going on, we think the vote is going to be in about half—an—hour. it needs to thirds of mps to pass, so it's unlikely without backing of labour, jeremy corbyn making it clear that he wouldn't be supporting it tonight. i'm joined by tobias
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ellwood, the conservative mp. the prime minister spoke to backbenchers like yourself today. what was the mood light after what happened yesterday when so many colleagues we re yesterday when so many colleagues were booted out? no one can deny the energy and resolve and determination the prime minister has brought to the prime minister has brought to the party, and a sense of passion to conclude brexit as you're saying, but we are a bit bruised, we've lost a numberof but we are a bit bruised, we've lost a number of colleagues in the purge that's taken place. i raised the question, which i wouldn't share but it's in the open, but is this being seen as a subtle move, moving our party to the right? i was pleased to hear and if party to the right? i was pleased to hearand ifi party to the right? i was pleased to hear and if i take no. party to the right? i was pleased to hearand if i take no. we party to the right? i was pleased to hear and if i take no. we wish to remaina broad, hear and if i take no. we wish to remain a broad, centre—right party, progressive, tolerant, appealing to the party base and beyond it as well. most significantly, his reply also suggested that when a deal comes back, if there are those who rebel against it such as the
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spartans, they'll be treated in the same way as those remainers who acted in the last couple of days. do you believe him when he says that wa nt you believe him when he says that want —— he wants that kind of conservative party? many will say that those who were booted out are your good friends, should you be allowing this to happen? you're right, which is why i asked the question. i'm moderate, progressive, a moderniser, representing a liberal pa rt of a moderniser, representing a liberal part of the country, bournemouth. it's important that i feel at home in the party with john redwood and ken clarke and the likes ofjacob rees—mogg. we need broad appeal to win the general election. i was pleased to hear that guarantee, that assurance. these are the mike rowe steps —— that assurance that these are not mike rowe steps that are leading us to the right. tonight has been illuminating for me. an amendment went through by
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accident. this was the stephen kinnock amendment, which brought back the deal, enforcing the deal to come back to the chamber. i asked keir starmer, come back to the chamber. i asked keirstarmer, are come back to the chamber. i asked keir starmer, are you happy with that and he wasn't. i said, how can you not be happy because it's what you're after. he said no, those who are rallying around no deal don't know what to do next. that summarises the challenge of the last three years. my colleagues are wedded to their own pure version of brexit, even at this late stage, with the nation being so frustrated that we haven't concluded it. it will be brought back to the house of commons and house of lords. i hope then we conclude brexit. but our new concern that your prior minister borisjohnson is willing to have a no—deal brexit in a few weeks' time? at the moment that isn't the case. i
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don't think we'll win the two thirds today, despite jeremy corbyn saying over over that he wants a general election, the majority won't be secured, so this will become law. election, the majority won't be secured, so this will become lawm that copper bottoms? does that stop a no—deal brexit? that copper bottoms? does that stop a no-deal brexit? it becomes the law, it becomes the law as it stands. the only thing that can change that is if there is a successful general election, we win it and then you repeal that piece of legislation. whether that can happen for the 17th of october... maybe this is glossed over. the prior minister went to berlin and paris and he did the unthinkable, he got the freedom to reopen some of the doors that were shut in front of mine. brussels has said there are no negotiations with meaningful change being put forward by the uk government. the prior minister was asked this today. it's clear that it isn't being done in public in the way it was before, which i think is a good thing. representative david
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frost is going there. i was enthused by the fact that there are thoughts to bring the deal back to parliament and making sure that my side, the brexiteers, have thwarted their withdrawal agreement going through three times, they will be treated in the same way as my colleagues who lost the whip this week. thank you. the view from the conservative side, what's been going on, the repercussions of what happened last night with tory mps being kicked out of the party. very interesting. here with me now is brigid fowler, a senior researcher at the political research group the hansard society and joe twyman, director of polling company deltapoll. ikea coming back to how unprecedented today was, and the conventions being ripped up. are there dangerous precedents being set here that may even cause problems further down the line ifjeremy corbyn were prime minister? certainly it may change the way that the house of commons works in the
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future. there is the purely partisan, you did this so we can do that party barge between the parties, when both sides lose the self restraint you might have seen. there's also the destabilisation of what had been common understandings in the rules of the house of commons and how they work. mainly that parliament is taking power away from the executive. that's a basic constitutional principle in the view of some people, has been that the government should be able to get its business, and people who are not the government shouldn't be able to get its business through the commons. with what's happened with the cooper bill in the spring and with the benn bill now. the speaker would say he's trying to stand up for the commons and if there is a majority in the commons to do
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something, hisjob is to majority in the commons to do something, his job is to facilitate that. but there's a danger we go down the american path and we have a politicised speaker. the long-term effects of this process on the role of the speaker is going to be one of the interesting things. if there is a general election, the house must elect a speaker when we come back. vicki young was saying that brexiteers are concerned they would be going to the country without delivering brexit which is why they wa nt to delivering brexit which is why they want to vote before tober the 31st. it's a difficultjob, more people oppose a no—deal brexit than support it but when you give people the full range of options, the most popular options are revoking article 50 as saying in the eu or leaving with no deal, but neither of them has much more than a quarter of the public supporting them. i difficult problem for this government and any government in the future. very grateful for your company. let's show you the pictures in the house
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of commons. bernard jenkin, conservative brexiteer, on his feet. the debate is going to run for another half—an—hour, until we have the vote on the election motion. you are watching a bbc news special. as we introduce the concept of referendums into our constitution, and the representative mandate is unalterably qualified by the fact that we had a referendum and we said we would implement the result of the referendum and the house has failed to do so. the question we must ask ourselves, how is this going to be resolved? it's ourselves, how is this going to be resolved ? it's not ourselves, how is this going to be resolved? it's not going to be resolved? it's not going to be resolved by continuing to put off decisions. and yet the bill which so many of the remain supporting members of the house are so pleased with has no more than invite the eu to put off the decisions. what is going to be gained by putting off the decisions again? and what is...
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what kind of respect will this house gain by putting off the decisions at the same time as avoiding the accountability that a general election would give to our electors to make us accountable for what we are responsible for? i give way. does he share my puzzlement that opposition benches are looking at a government that has lost its majority, that cannot get its business through, that is offering the chance of a general election, which will be about more than just brexit. there are other things that matter to my constituents. they will wa nt matter to my constituents. they will want to renew a mandate and give a government a mandate to deliver on those things. with a government without the ability to deliver needs to have a general election. i would have thought anyone opposite would acce pt have thought anyone opposite would accept that. i share agreement with
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much of what my honourable friend says. i returned to the question of how it's going to be resolved. supposing the opposition... you're watching a bbc news special, i'm christian fraser live at westminster. mps are about to debate whether to hold a general election after this request from boris johnson. there must now be a general election on tuesday the 15th of october. ayes to the right 359, the noes to the left 300. he put forward the motion after mps again voted to block a no—deal brexit, widening the margin of defeat. mps are now debating that motion for a general election.

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