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tv   Victoria Derbyshire  BBC News  September 10, 2019 10:00am-11:01am BST

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hello it's tuesday, it's 10 o'clock, i'm victoria derbyshire. are you hooked on prescription painkillers crisis? one in four adults, 12 million people, in england have been given potentially addictive pills in the past year and it's middle—aged women who are the group most at risk. we'll talk to one woman spent five years addicted to painkillers and another who is still battling a dependency after 22 years on prescription drugs. former cricketer geoffrey boycott has been given a knighthood by the former pm theresa may. over 20 years ago he was convicted in a french court for an assault on his then—girlfriend, which he denies. domestic abuse charities have criticised his honour. he doesnt care.
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it is a cross i have to bear — right or wrong, good or bad, i have to live with it. and i do because i am clear in my mind, and i think most people in england are, that it is not true. although the chief executive of women's aid has said celebrating a man... i don't care a toss about her, love. it's 25 years ago. so what does the charity women's aid say? we'll find out. and, tell us, do you give a toss? five weeks — that's how long parliament's doors will be closed forfrom this morning. six defeats out of six for the prime minister. 41 gongs for those who served theresa may, even though she said a similar gongs handed out by her predecessor made her "retch". and the pm still insists that whatever parliament says he's going to make brexit happen on 31st october. no matter how many devices this parliament invents to tie my hands,
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i will strive, mr speaker, to get an agreement in the national interest. and, these two people are planning to fly drones around heathrow this week in an environmental protest — airport authorities say it is a "criminal act". we'll bring protestors together with affected passengers. hello. welcome to the programme. we're live until 11 this morning. so many comments from you about the fa ct so many comments from you about the fact geoffrey so many comments from you about the fa ct geoffrey boycott so many comments from you about the fact geoffrey boycott is now sir geoffrey boycott, you may have heard him saying that he does not care what a charity, women's aid, say about his assault conviction from over 20 years ago, brian says, i ca re greatly, over 20 years ago, brian says, i care greatly, the honour system has become devalued over the last 20 yea rs become devalued over the last 20 years but this takes it to a new
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low. is believable but not surprised, says tom, the honour system has become degraded and is an archaic relic which should be abandoned. this honour to geoffrey boycott legitimises domestic abuse. yes, ido, it boycott legitimises domestic abuse. yes, i do, it is an insult to all victims of domestic abuse and should not have been allowed to happen. there one incident such this negate his entire life achievements? he was caught and punished, no suggestion this was a pattern behaviour, why must he bejudged and condemned on this rather than being celebrated for his decades as a cricketer? he denies the allegations. we will talk more about that later. annita mcveigh has the news. parliament has been officially suspended for the next five weeks after an extraordinary night in the house of commons, there were chaotic scenes into the early hours of the
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morning as opposition mps sang, wave placards and at one point even attempted to stop thejohn bercow, from leaving the house. earlier, borisjohnson from leaving the house. earlier, boris johnson lost a from leaving the house. earlier, borisjohnson lost a six vote in as many days as he failed in his bid to call an early general election. petrol bombs have been thrown at police officers in northern ireland after a suspicious object was found in the creggan area of londonderry. around 80 officers were taking part in a security search targeting dissident republican group, the new ira. two young people sustained burn injuries. there are growing concerns that people are becoming dependent on prescription drugs, according to public health england. it found that in the past year, one in four adults in england have been prescribed drugs which could be addictive. experts say drugs are not being prescribed in line with guidelines and that long—term use is not justified. these drugs are commonly used for some very common ailments, what i am more concerned about is that half of
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the people who are taking these drugs have been prescribed those drugs have been prescribed those drugs in the last year, they have had a prescription for more than one year. for the vast majority of these medicines, using them for that length of time is very unlikely to be supported by clinical guidance. a bbc investigation has discovered that more than 500 convicted british sex offenders who should be being monitored by the authorities have disappeared from the system. file on 4 has found that police are struggling to implement a new regime, because of the high number of individuals involved. critics claim the system for managing offenders in england and wales is flawed and allows people to slip through the net and flee abroad. an inquiry into cheating in school exams has called for pupils to be banned from wearing any kind of watch. smartwatches that connect to the internet are already not allowed but the inquiry which was commissioned by the exam boards, says invigilators find it hard to tell them apart from normal watches. investment in five areas, including agriculture,
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water supplies and infrastructure, could help the planet become more resilient in the face of climate change, according to a study by leaders in politics, business and science. they found that investing 1.5 trillion pounds over the next decade on things like early—warning systems for flooding and high tides could produce benefits worth more than £5.5 trillion. theresa may's former closest advisers have been recognised in the ex—prime minister's resignation honours list. nick timothy and fiona hill are among 57 people on a list. away from politics, mrs may, who's a keen cricket fan has awarded former england captains, geoffrey boycott and andrew strauss knighthoods. that's the latest news, back to you victoria. are you one of the almost 12 million people prescrbled painkillers,
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sleeping pills and anti—depressants? one in four adults in england were prescribed strong painkillers, antidepressants, or sleeping tablets in the 12 months up to march last year, according to a new report. and half of those were prescribed the drugs for at least a year, increasing the chances of addiction. we can speak now to gina hayes, who spent over five years dependent on antidepressants. nancy ioannou, who's been dependent on strong painkillers for herfibromyalgia, a long—term condition that causes pain all over the body. nancy was first prescribed such medicine aged 14. she is now 36. 22 yea rs. chris hill, a drug addiction expert who runs beat my addictions and has helped both gina and nancy with their dependency. rosanna o'connor, the director of alcohol, drugs, tobacco and justice at public health england who've released these figures today. they want to see gps offering more alternatives to drugs, such as talking therapies. and dr sohini kar, a gp who's prescribed the drugs mentioned in the report.
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22 years, do you want to get off these drugs? i had a car accident when i was 18. that led to me unable to walk for six years, the doctor said they did not know what was wrong with me, they knew that i was suffering pain, they put me on and a trip to lynn, and pregabalin, and from then on, i deteriorated and got me and fibromyalgia, and it is going downhill, because of the pain i was suffering, in the beginning when they did not know what had happened to my foot, because it was like my sciatica nerve but they did not diagnose it correctly, they did physio and then left me on the
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shelf, really i did not know what to do with myself. —— amitriptyline. in so do with myself. —— amitriptyline. in so much mental and physical pain. did the painkillers help you, did they relieve the pain? they did, but they relieve the pain? they did, but they cause me to feel unwell, but i was smoking cannabis and i came off that, they helped me come off that. was the smoking cannabis to help relieve the pain? yes, it was to help me have some pain relief. so, do you field that you are dependent upon them? yes, very much so, i am on antidepressants, as well, i am very much dependent on them, i would be terrified to come off them. like chris, what he does, i think i could be able to come off them. why is it so be able to come off them. why is it so difficult to come off them?m be able to come off them. why is it so difficult to come off them? it is the symptom is that you get, you get shaky, basically, you get shaky, you get dehydrated, anxious, worried, you can even become suicidal. you
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need to have a support network in place. i'm going to bring in gina, five years addicted to antidepressants, you were able to come off them with the help of chris. tell us the effect of being addicted. i thought it was a drug that would cure my anxiety, a wonder drug, everything would be ok, i took them, the doctor said, take these, come back in 28 days, you will only be on them for a few months, after 28 days i went back and he said, you are going to be on them, i said, ta ke are going to be on them, i said, take them for a few months? he said, no, a year or take them for a few months? he said, no, a yearortwo, take them for a few months? he said, no, a year or two, and take them for a few months? he said, no, a year ortwo, and it takes take them for a few months? he said, no, a year or two, and it takes at least six months to come off them. so...| least six months to come off them. so... i took them, basically, least six months to come off them. so... itook them, basically, for five years, i felt numb, i did not feel myself, cut off from the world. it did not clear my anxiety, i even lost jobs over it did not clear my anxiety, i even lostjobs over it, it did not clear my anxiety, i even lost jobs over it, they made
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it did not clear my anxiety, i even lostjobs over it, they made me not care, to the point where i would not get up and go to work, i had lost my job, could not pay my mortgage. it does have a vicious circle sometimes when you are on them, because i even sometimes, i would when you are on them, because i even sometimes, iwould have when you are on them, because i even sometimes, i would have a few glasses of wine every day because i wanted to feel something, like, feel alive. that would make me feel even worse. it is a vicious spiral. how did you help? gina came to me, struggling to hold down herjob, just had a job, so, the way that i help people with addiction, antidepressants and painkillers and that have an addictive side to them. when you stop taking them, there is a want and a need, the physical body craves that drug. does that happen with everybody who takes antidepressants? right across the board, addiction is addiction. it is not explained to people when they start taking these tablets that they
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are an addictive substance and the likelihood is you will become addicted to them. i want to bring in addicted to them. i want to bring in a gp, you have prescribed antidepressants and other painkillers, do you say to patients, these are addictive? we are very, we try to be as open as we can... do you say that these are addictive? yes, commonly used painkillers, talking about coding, commonly used, people come in for back pain, they have tried paracetamol and ibuprofen, they need to get back to work, losing days off work, zero—hours contracts, implications, we go back to the saying, these will bea we go back to the saying, these will be a short—term remedy, we don't wa nt be a short—term remedy, we don't want you to take them. then you continue to prescribe them. not always, it is individual circumstances. so, sometimes, if patients come in and say, this is helping, i want more, and we have an open conversation with them, that
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this is something, this is a short—term fix, we don't want you to become reliant on this. however, we have patients, we have some people who are taking this, pain is a complex thing, it is notjust physical pain, we are talking about mental pain, there is a past medical history to it. can you say to me and looked me in the eye and say, you do consider other options before prescribing, for example, antidepressants? we do consider other options, counselling is one of the other communist prescribed options, however, the current wait for counselling is enormously long where i practice, we need more services and provisions in the community, where we can say that someone community, where we can say that someone will be seen by a therapist in the next few weeks. —— is one of the other most common prescribed option. talking therapies may be useful... of course you will prescribe antidepressants, because
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ita prescribe antidepressants, because it a wait. patients individual circumstances, they may say, i don't wa nt circumstances, they may say, i don't want antidepressants, and we say, these are the options, their body, their choice, we lay out the option. you have brought out this report, how aligned are you? the secretary of state has described it as a crisis, we believe this report is a wake—up call for the nhs. too many people are being prescribed medicine is way beyond guidelines, some of them are highly addictive, and what we do know is across all these groups of medicines, people have real problems coming off them, as we have heard from tina and nancy. it isa have heard from tina and nancy. it is a real struggle. one of the drugs you have mentioned, should be prescribed for 28 days, you have been on it much longer. -- gina. we have had previous wake—up calls and
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nothing has changed, the department of health released figures, but there has been a 60% increase in ascription for opioid painkillers in the last year, no one is doing anything about it, including public health england. we have brought out this review, we have listened to the voices of patients, people like nancy and gina. what we are calling for is strength and guidance for gps in particular. what does that mean in practical terms? do not prescribe this for more than 28 days, some of them are. what do you mean, strengthen? it needs to be strengthened, absolutely clear, absolutely... doctors need better training around dependency and withdrawal for patients, and they need to be talking to patients about both the risks and benefits. of the drugs they are prescribing. patients need better options, and need more
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options. medicine should not be the default position. are some gps not talking to patients about the options? i am sure that is the case. as gps, we try our best, i can only talk about what we do in the local community, we have an open conversation, when someone says, i am having trouble sleeping, and they come in for medications, my neighbour has had a sleeping medication, that has helped, we a lwa ys medication, that has helped, we always try to propagate what we call sleep hygiene and alternative measures. do you accept that there is nothing clearer than guidance that says, do not prescribe these drugs for more than 28 days? you don't need more information to understand that. that is clear, as doctors we are aware. we recognise patients who are at a risk of developing more addiction, we try to wea n developing more addiction, we try to wean them off. it is too late, then.
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22 years. could ijust add, that i would not want anybody watching this being so worried that theyjust try and come off their medicines. people really do, if they are really worried, they need to go back and talk to their doctor and ask for advice and support. we know that all these drugs we are talking about, all these painkillers, all these medicines, for many people, are a real source of comfort and help. the problem we have at the moment, the wrong information is out there. when someone comes wrong information is out there. when someone comes off an addictive substance, they will hit withdrawal, doctors are not explaining what withdrawal is, that is when someone hits massive anxiety and stress and fear and procrastination, when that person goes back to the doctor, all the doctor can do is prescribe more medication, we need more talking therapy, that is what i have been teaching these two amazing ladies, you can start to retrain your mind
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to come off an addictive substance but you have to understand it first, without the education, we will not fix the problem. we need to be talking to, nhs england, local gps, we need to be giving the information to people out there on these tablets. there is a safe way to do it but we must work in conjunction together to get this thing fixed. it but we must work in conjunction together to get this thing fixedm a moment i will ask what that safeway is, that is what you are going to do, presumably, with nancy. some messages from the audience, "i have been struggling for 12 months to reduce a dose of fentanyl, i was somehow prescribed 1a times the daily maximum dose for eight years, this was only spotted by a new gp when i moved". "i have been addicted to codeine, coco demille, for ten yea rs, to codeine, coco demille, for ten years, it completely controls my life, it is so easy to get it from the gp and over the counter without prescription, more needs to be done to prevent people getting hold of this, i will soon be going into real
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life, —— rehab, i have had enough." "ivm life, —— rehab, i have had enough." "i'm a middle—aged woman, i have been on medication for chronic pain for two years and i'm not sure how i would have coped without them, i have not increased my dose in all this time and only taken them when in pain. i understand concerns about addiction but it makes me uncomfortable that you have only women on your programme who have had issues with dependency." —— cocodomyl. "i was prescribed 30 mg of diameter —— diazepam in france, my dose was reduced when i came back to the uk..." "i receive repeat descriptions until 2017 when i decided to come off them with the help of a gp pharmacist, i was treated like a drug chasing addict, push to come off them faster than i could handle and when i finally stopped i was offered no support by mental health services for helping to cope with the continual withdrawal symptoms like panic attacks, constant and severe anxiety, vertigo, tremors, etc."
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are you confident nancy will be able to come off ascription medicine after 22 years? 10096, but, we need education and time. -- prescription medicine. this is where the problem is, education first, helping someone understand where the mind and the bodywork, where your emotions and feelings from. we are working externally to fix the problem, the problem of addiction exists inside of us, it is the want and need created by the mind and body, when you put an addictive substance in, it acts like hunger for food or thirst for water, your survival mechanism makes you believe you need the drug. if you try to eating one day, you would have problems. education, retraining the mind, and what else? support, education and support, to help that person. either ina support, to help that person. either in a community project or a gp. support, to help that person. either
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in a community project or a gpw is also about reducing dosage, in practical terms? it is very dangerous to stop these, i would never say to nancy, just come to me and stop. we work with gps to reduce the dosage, while educating that person, and once we get to a point, they let go of the drug, even if you reduce, the moment they let go of the drug, they will go into withdrawal. —— drug. common sense is reduced and stop, it does not work that way, the body is still craving the drug, we must re—educate the mind, and that is what we do at the website. how do you view the prospect of at some point coming of prescription medicine. in a way, i feel relief, but because there has not been that much support for me, it has been a downward spiral, i have been left, and just prescribed medication, and like the lady said, when you go for counselling, the waiting list is on and on. these people get into these drugs to
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survive, because... you are dealing with the trauma aspect of the pain and what you have gone through. but not the support, there is no support. chris supports you, he changes the way you think. it is all up changes the way you think. it is all up here. i want to ask you, do you think we have a painkillers, antidepressants, sleeping tablets epidemic in this country, based on the figures you release? the figures are certainly very worrying and i think that worrying that they are being prescribed beyond the guidelines, opioid painkillers do not work in the long term, and yet we know that half a million people we re we know that half a million people were on them continuously for three years. the data shows us. anti—anxiety medication is very clear, should not pre—prescribed beyond 28 days. should not be prescribed beyond 28 days, that is
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why i am saying this is a wake—up call. in the five years i was on them, they would not even look at me and ask how i was, they would give me the prescription, write it out again, in and out within seconds, you go and get your prescription, they don't ask you how you are, i never got called i was going to get addicted to these and be on them for five years, never. we don't want to be stigmatising patients, all the medicines, because, obviously, they have a role to play, but the way in which, the way in which patient expectations are managed and the support to gps to look at alternatives, all of that is very important. and there is clearly work to do. thank you very much, all of you, for coming onto the programme. keep your views coming in, send us an e—mail. you can message us on
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twitter. there will not be a general election until november at the earliest. parliament voted down the prime minister's plan for an election last night. that's because opposition parties want borisjohnson to be forced to rule out leaving the eu with no deal before any election campaign. parliament has now been suspended, or prorogued, to use the technical term, until mid october, which means the pm can't get an election date agreed until then. here's what happened in the house of commons last night, when some labour mps protested about parliament being shut down. —— close down. -- close down. if honourable members wa nt -- close down. if honourable members want another delay, mr speaker, the only proper way to do it, is to ask permission from our masters, the people. we are eager for an election but as keen as we are, we are not prepared to risk inflicting a disaster of no deal on our communities, our jobs, disaster of no deal on our communities, ourjobs, our services, or, indeed, our rights. the ayes to
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the right, 293, the noes to the left... the right, 293, the noes to the left. . . that the right, 293, the noes to the left... that is less than last time! laughter the majority does not satisfy the fixed term policy act...|j the majority does not satisfy the fixed term policy act... i earlier asked the house to trust the people but once again, the opposition think they know better! he has lost every vote he has brought to this house since he became prime minister. perhaps that is the reason... perhaps that is the reason... perhaps that is the reason... perhaps that is the reason, mr speaker, that he is trying to shut down democracy this evening! her royal assent acts passed by both houses and to also declare the prorogation of parliament. shouting booing shouting this is not, however, a normal
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prorogation, it is not typical, it is not standard, it is one of the longest for decades. applause booing shouting chanting studio: if you could not see the posters, they said," silenced". we asked for an. interview with someone from the government. we can talk now to two conservative mps. in a moment we'll speak to sir geoffrey clifton brown. he is treasurer of the rank and file committee of conservative mps known as the 1922 committee. he's also supported his govt in votes this week. but first let's speak to tobias ellwood, who was a defence minister untiljuly. he's been loyal to the government in the last week, supporting them in key votes, but is concerned that borisjohnson's strategy is leading conservatives to desert the party. does it feel right, this morning,
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that in the middle of this national crisis, the nation will be wondering why on earth we are packing up and having a break when there is such a big decision to have. parliament has not been silenced, it has taken over from the executive, it took over power. it said we would have no deal. why didn't they go a step further and say, not only no deal, which all of us would agree, this is the deal that we want. it has not been struck. it is because parliament cannot agree, we have spent three years old pursuing very different pure forms of brexit. when we lose votes as we have done in the la st we lose votes as we have done in the last week, the reset button is a general election. where do you think
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the prime minister is now, given that he sounded much more committed yesterday in dublin, then he previously has done about getting a deal? i want to see a deal, i welcome his statement in dublin, next to leo varadkar, the irish prime minister, he said it would be a failure of statecraft if we did not get a deal, the chaos it would cause across britain, i have been very vocal about that, we have an opportunity. he went to berlin and paris, spoke with angela merkel and emmanuel macron, and they said, go back, show us what you can do, by the 17th of october, that is the critical date we face. apparently they have seen nothing, that is extraordinary, no new proposal. people constantly want an indication of what is going on, a bit like... no, i don't want an indication, i heard, as you did, the irish leader said, "we have not seen any new proposal". he would like to see them. of course you would, that is
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what must happen under closed doors, under the last government, continually they gave a running assessment of... leo varadkar was saying it has not even happen behind closed doors! the purpose of the visit yesterday, we can go into the boring details of what it is, let me finish, quite an important point, the detail is about a small company, beneath the vat threshold, a larger one, vat registered, orthe big business, how do they move each side of the border? the one cracks where they differed, i understand, is the fa ct we they differed, i understand, is the fact we want to have a stand—off checks system, therefore, the board itself remains open, but leo varadkar is saying, i don't want that. i ask him to reconsider, that is the one piece of the jigsaw denying us getting a withdrawal agreement type deal across the table. that is a different point for a different question, my question was: when you hear the irish leader saying, unless you don't think he is telling the truth, saying, "we have seen no new telling the truth, saying, "we have seen no new detailed proposals...",
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surely, he means, there is no new detailed proposal?” surely, he means, there is no new detailed proposal? i am not close to it but from what i understand, i am impatient to get through this too, i very much want to allow them the time in orderto very much want to allow them the time in order to do the detail, that very question ijust post to you, david frost, the adviser, is going to the european union to appreciate this. i stress again, it is not now, today, tomorrow, it is october 17, european summit, that the prime minister is obliged to share what he has achieved by then. but you are right, there is concern we have not seen right, there is concern we have not seen much to date, i hope the prime ministercan seen much to date, i hope the prime minister can reconcile that by updating what is going on, not least what he achieved when he visited dublin yesterday. blocking no deal has not stopped the pie minister negotiating. there's different arguments about no deal. i've been very vocal about that. what you can't deny is since this
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prime minister came into power, he has been more determined, more resolute and adopt sorry, you are evading what i'm putting to you. he has argued, perhaps you have argued as well, if you take no deal off the table, it means he cannot negotiate, ta kes table, it means he cannot negotiate, takes away his key point of leverage. it's not true. he is continuing to negotiate. firstly, it's in everybody's interest, european union, france, germany, britain, every single household in britain, every single household in britain would benefit bias getting a deal. we would be poorer if we don't have a deal. but this deadline of 315t of october has been imposed by the eu. if they don't help us out in securing a deal we bump into no deal, so it's absolutely right that more preparations are made, much as though we want to avoid it. theresa may asked for an extension until october the 31st. no, she asked for further than that and it was emmanuel macron and the eu who said the 315t of october. that was an unhelpful date because the eu don't go back to work until the ist of
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november, so if you had any changes to de—nuke and introduce them until the day after. it was an unhelpful deadline to enforce. you tweeted how sorry where the prime ministers was leaving the and politics altogether. you've seen other colleagues do the same. can you see any circumstances in which you would leave the conservative party? i'm going to fight because it is important the conservative party remains a broad church. what if the uk leaves without a deal? let's explain the importance of me staying. we don't do coalitions of this country, they are very do coalitions of this country, they are very rare. do coalitions of this country, they are very rare. we had won not long ago but it is because the coalition is within their parties. we have people with expertise, i do defence international security, understanding the rise of china, the economy, zac goldsmith does the environment, what we are seeing because of this focus on brexit, people forget all that, they forget what you stand for in the party and they label you a remainer or a brexiteer. that's worrying. that's
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why i'm concerned about the complexion of our party changing because of what's happened with good people choosing to depart and we must remain focused. we won't win general elections unless we appeal to the entire nation and notjust seen as a to the entire nation and notjust seen as a right—wing party. to the entire nation and notjust seen as a right-wing party. you met some of the tory rebels who were thrown out of the party last week, last night. are they going to appeal? there is an appeal process. jeffrey brown is better placed to talk about that. ultimately there needs to be disciplined because that's what lacked. three votes went through theresa may. the arg pushed aside any sort of loyalty. what i would like to see is a deal brought back. we are far closer than people realise in dealing with the northern ireland backstop. let's get the deal back on the table. 25 labour mps who are on brexit facing seats. the dup wanted, as well. have the discipline on the arg, a little bit naughty of the last government, . ..
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on the arg, a little bit naughty of the last government,... a little bit naughty? they voted three times. i'm being polite. you are. i'm trying to say the numbers are there to get across the line. if the prime minister comes back with a deal for example it's a northern ireland only backstop, i've already heard of these two of your colleagues in the european research groups that they would not vote for that. what is your appeal to them this morning?“ the prime minister has gone to brussels and got a reasonable deal your listeners will be aware i voted for theresa may steel three times, i think i was at my local agricultural show... think i was at my local agricultural show. . . what think i was at my local agricultural show... what is your appeal to your collea g u es show... what is your appeal to your colleagues in your party who are already saying they would not vote for a deal boris johnson already saying they would not vote for a deal borisjohnson brings back u nless for a deal borisjohnson brings back unless he's met all their conditions? if he comes back with a deal he recommends to the party, i would urge all colleagues on both wings to support it. because, as i totally agree with tobias, it's much better to leave with a deal done
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without a deal. and if they don't you would expect them to be expeued? you would expect them to be expelled? i think they would think that themselves. that's good news. are they worried about that? they would have to take that into account if they vote. we've already anticipated that possibilities so we have to wait and see what happens. the thrust of your question is if borisjohnson the thrust of your question is if boris johnson recommends the the thrust of your question is if borisjohnson recommends the deal, they should vote unsupported. ok, doesn't feel right to you parliament is close down from today in the middle of all this? i agree with tobias. it does not go to the public. so it's the wrong decision? we normally have a break at this time of year. the amount of time is probably wrong, i agree with that. and the state of the nation.“ isn't just brexit, and the state of the nation.“ isn'tjust brexit, there's a lot going on with the economy to think about. the environment. a lot of things which need to be dealt with.
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john major described your party as becoming like a mean minded sect. nicholas soames expelled last week, winston churchill is grandson said it was an brexit sect. are they right? i do thinkjohn major is being hypocritical. if you will recall, and i was in his parliament, he talked about expelling seven people from the web overnight, so i don't think he has a track record to talk about this. i do agree with the thrust of what he's saying. which is that if we are to win an election we a lwa ys that if we are to win an election we always have been a broad church party, we need to continue to be a broad church party, and we will look at the appeals mechanism very carefully. it's up to every single one of those 21 to trigger but appeal process and then we'll have to wait and see. i think there should be allowed back, for some of those 21. ok, iwant should be allowed back, for some of those 21. ok, i want to ask about the honours list, theresa may last act in power, really. all of her aides when she was pm have been
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given a knighthood, cb, whatever it may be. she had previously said that her predecessor david cameron's decision to give a knighthood to his former chief spin doctor had made her retch. she's done exactly the same with her own chief spin doctor. if she a hypocrite? the honours system is honours system. is she a hypocrite? no, i don't think she is but it's a gift from the prime minister in recognition of service to the prime minister who is the most important person in the country. some of those personally i wouldn't have given an honour to, i'm not going to name names, certainly not, but that is the prime minister decision. i don't think she is epic of, no. should a cricketer who scored hundreds of runs for england and has a domestic violence conviction for over 20 years ago be given a knighthood? he was convicted 20 years ago. he has given huge service to cricket, not only in personal terms, how we performed,
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but also supporting youngsters and others to come into cricket and been a great service to the country. i think there comes a point where, yes, it was a very serious and stupid thing he did 20 years ago, but there comes a point when people should be rehabilitated from their offences and the greater amount of what they achieved, which they have, should be recognised. you can have an assault conviction, which he denied, which he tried to overturn and failed, and years later be given and failed, and years later be given a knighthood ? and failed, and years later be given a knighthood? as i say, there comes a knighthood? as i say, there comes a point when people need to be rehabilitated. it's a serious offence, no one is detracting from that that the other part of his life i think he's deserving of recognition. thank you both are very much for coming onto the programme. thank you. protestors are planning to cause disruption and attempt to ground flights with drones at heathrow airport from this friday. the group doing it is called heathrow pause and they're an offshoot of climate activists
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extinction rebellion. they say they're planning to exploit a loophole in heathrow‘s health and safety protocols and fly toy drones within its restricted zone. they hope the airport will respond by grounding all flights. the plans have been called "criminal and counterproductive" by heathrow. even extinction rebellion don't back the offshoot group. we have brought two of the people who'll be flying the drones together with two people trying to fly from heathrow that day. we can speak now to johnathan fishwick and sylia dell, who say they'll both be flying drones for heathrow pause. also with us is morgan perry, who's due to fly back into heathrow from san francisco on friday. and mussirah moossun, who's due to fly off on holiday with her mum who's been unwell on sunday. and david hall who is due to fly from newcastle to heathrow on saturday, and then on to new york. also with us is morgan perry, who's due to fly back into heathrow from san francisco on friday. we asked for someone from exinction rebellion too but they didn't wan to join the conversation this morning. welcome, all of you. jonathan and
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sylvia, this protest is so unpopular, even your old friends at extinction rebellion don't back it. surely that is enough to tell you it's just too unpopular? surely that is enough to tell you it'sjust too unpopular? unpopular it'sjust too unpopular? unpopular it might be, but we are facing a catastrophic climate and ecological breakdown within the lifetimes of our children. why don't extinction rebellion bucket? they are backing major disruption in october. they are not backing you to flying drones. i learn your —— i understand learning to drive or no. the most important thing here is not who was doing this action but why. and the nature of the action. is it the right thing to do? massive disruption is the only way u nfortu nately disruption is the only way unfortunately that our government seems to pay any attention. when ordinary people are prepared to go
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to prison over this, it sends a signal that there must be something very serious going on. and people will wake up and take notice. that is the hope because we are seriously running out of time on this. do you accept that? i understand that people are passionate and want to save the world, but when it's affecting a lot of people, negatively, people need to be aware of climate change and i agree with that, but if it's going about it like this, it's making everyone have a negative view on that. it will make them want to rebel in a certain way and not support your cause because they will look at climate change protesters in a negative way. i'm sure you don't want that for yourself. you're going to get that sort of response if you're going to go sort of response if you're going to go and disrupt so many flights. there are so many people on that flight there are so many people on that flight for important reasons, as well. i'm going on holiday with my mum, who has been quite ill lately,
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andl mum, who has been quite ill lately, and i know she really, really needs that and if she doesn't go it'll make me really sad for her. it's like you're personal lives. the action you are taking donald duck can you have it both ways question what you care about climate change. you also want to take on holiday. i'm sure a lot of people don't want the world to end. we are in a situation now where the climate apocalypse we are heading towards, is so close that every flight that people are taking today and in the future is impacting on real lives. people are dying already in the global south through climate change. and also for ourfuture global south through climate change. and also for our future generations and the children who are alive today, their lives are going to be massively disrupted in ways that go
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way beyond simply having a holiday. david, do you accept that? absolutely not. it's completely irresponsible the way these people are going about making their point. the fact is the united kingdom is leading the way in terms of the g8 and the 620 and leading the way in terms of the 68 and the 620 and trying to drive down carbon emissions. what they should be doing is protesting outside of the main contributors, to carbon emissions, people like the brazilian embassy, the chinese embassy, that's where they should be targeting. not innocent people going about their daily business. going on holiday. going away with family and friends. we are going to incur costs because of this, financial costs individually. that's completely unfair. they will turn the uk public against their cause. it's totally counter—productive. how do you respond to that? i want to speak to
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the people who are disrupted by this andl the people who are disrupted by this and i want them to know i do deeply ca re and i want them to know i do deeply care andl and i want them to know i do deeply care and i have weighed up this very heavily. the fact you are doing this photo shows you don't care.“ heavily. the fact you are doing this photo shows you don't care. it shows how much i care because i'm prepared to go to prison over this. the irresponsibility here lies with the government. when you press ahead with a third runway knowing that the house is already on fire, adding to the fire is totally irresponsible. we are talking about peoples lives, not their inconvenience. every day 1000 people die as a result of the effects of climate breakdown. most of them children. i can't stand by and do nothing when that's happening. do something which will make a difference. britain is doing more than any other 620 country, going to protest outside the brazilian embassy about why they are not doing something to put out the fires in the amazon. do something which makes a difference rather than just standing up and saying look at me, look at me, which is what you are doing. i do tend to support the
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argument that we really should be lobbying corporations and governments to change their actions and methods to help reduce climate change. from what we have seen so far, many of the protests by similar movements haven't actually resulted in much change. therefore i fail to see how this is going to be any different. i think extinction rebellion really have taken the lead on that. when you say that lobbying the brazilian embassy and taking action against the corporations, that's where extinction rebellion excel. after their actions in april, they actually we were the first country to declare a climate emergency. do you acknowledge this is different? the met police say on the response drones will be used to ground flights with the aim of disrupting the travelling public i wa nt to disrupting the travelling public i want to be clear we will do everything to prevent and stop any
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such criminal activity. the dangers of flying drones in air space used by airliners carrying passengers are stark. and the consequence is potentially very severe. you must acknowledge it is totally different, in the centre of london or manchester, newcastle, to stop cars going through. the first point is this action has been designed to be entirely safe. we are flying... you don't know that. we are flying at head height. it's don't know that. we are flying at head height. it'5100% safe. don't know that. we are flying at head height. it's 10096 safe. we don't know that. we are flying at head height. it's10096 safe. we are flying way outside of the flight path of any flights. it's totally 100% safe. path of any flights. it's totally 10096 safe. it is 10096 illegal, though, because that is the essence of why we are doing this. the social science evidence tells us that to bring about social change in the same way bring about social change in the same way that gandhi and nelson mandela and the other peaceful
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protesters have done, the essence of bringing about social change is non—violent disruption, respectful, so we non—violent disruption, respectful, so we respect all of the views put forward here today, but it has to be disruptive and has to have a sacrificial aspect. these are the ones who will sacrifice, david jenny, morgan'sjourney, ones who will sacrifice, david jenny, morgan's journey, and ones who will sacrifice, david jenny, morgan'sjourney, and your holiday with your mum? with the greatest of respect, journey is something they can do again at a different time. i'm prepared to go to prison. you can come back from san francisco at any time. as much as i'd love to come i have worked this weekend so whilst i appreciate that, yes, i can take a journey at any time, it's not convenient for me to do that. convenience. also its people on that flight because their mum is dying, this could be the last
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time they see them, and because their flight is cancelled, they happen to pass away. also you say that the drones are safe. are you expert with the drones firstly? secondly, you don't know what the weather conditions might be that day. that could disrupt another flgm? day. that could disrupt another flight? that could cause something else. we know we will be at least one mile away from the runway. we know that we are not going to be flying it much above head height.” wa nt to flying it much above head height.” want to give david a final word. your last opportunity to appeal to sylvia, and jonathan fishwick from heathrow pause to ask them not to fly their drones under stopped flights on friday. they have just shown the ridiculousness of the argument on a cell is 100% safe. when you introduce them, they spoke about learning to fly drones right now. they don't marry up. it's a huge risk. something could go wrong.
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i hope they can live for themselves when something does go wrong. have you ever flown a toy drone? they are so you ever flown a toy drone? they are so simple to fly. it is literally a case of pressing the button. i'm sorry, i got to leave it there. thank you. john says anyone flying drones at an airport should be classed as terrorists and it should bea classed as terrorists and it should be a terrorist act against the national interest. pete says i hope the police are waiting outside your studio to arrest them. they intend to put lives at risk at heathrow. thank you very much, all of you. thank you very much, all of you. thank you very much, all of you. thank you for coming on the programme we appreciated. jeremy corbyn is about to address the biggest meeting of trade union members at the tuc conference this morning. the labour leader is expected to accuse borisjohnson of using a no—deal brexit as cover to sell off public services and shift even more power to those at the top. let's listen to what he has to say. conservatives and the dup had a majority of one in the house of commons. the last time i checked, the majority was down to —45. today,
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parliament stands empty. shut down bya parliament stands empty. shut down by a prime minister running away from scrutiny. but let me say this. we mustn't ever mistake the drama at westminster for what real politics is about. what truly matters to people isn't resignations and defections and late—night votes in parliament. for most people, all of thatis parliament. for most people, all of that is 1 parliament. for most people, all of that is1 million miles parliament. for most people, all of that is 1 million miles away. parliament. for most people, all of that is1 million miles away. what truly matters is the reality of their everyday lives, in their community, on the streets, and at their workplace. real politics, for me, isn't about parliamentary knock—about with all its baffling language and procedures. real politics is about giving power to people who don't have a lot of money
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and don't have friends in high places, so they can take control of their own lives. borisjohnson's political strategy is perfectly clear. he wants to stage a showdown over a new deal brexit that he can repackage as a battle between parliament and the people. , in this melodrama played by none other than that man of the people borisjohnson other than that man of the people boris johnson himself. other than that man of the people borisjohnson himself. but the idea thatjohnson and his wealthy friends and backers somehow represent people is truly absurd. johnson and his right—wing cabinet are not only on the side of the establishment, they are the establishment. and this tory
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government isn't so different from any other tory government. they will help the rich to get richer and make working class people pay. johnson's reckless no deal would destroyjobs, push up food prices in the shops, and because of shortages of everyday medicines that people rely on. and it will disrupt supply chains in manufacturing industry and lead to all kinds of problems in many other places of work. and who bears the cost of that? it wouldn't be johnson and his wealthy friends. it's not their livelihoods on the line. it will be the rest of us. just as it wasn't the bankers who borisjohnson still defends who paid the price for the financial crash in 2008, it was
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tens of millions of working people who had absolutely nothing to do with it. for the tories for the tories, this is about so much more than leaving the european union. it's about hijacking the referendum result, to shift even more power and wealth to those at the top. they will use a no deal crash to push through policies that benefit them and their super—rich supporters. and hurt everyone else. just as they did after the financial crisis. jeremy corbyn. we believe up there for a moment because we are going to talk about sir geoffrey boycott. sir geoffrey boycott says he "doesn't give a toss" about criticism from the domestic abuse charity women's aid over the knighthood he's been given by theresa may. the former england captain was convicted of assaulting his girlfriend by a french court in 1998.
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he's always denied that he hit her. here's what he had to say on radio 4's today programme this morning. i didn't do it, i move on. it is a cross i have to bear — right or wrong, good or bad, i have to live with it. and i do because i am clear in my mind, and i think most people in england are, that it is not true. although the chief executive of women's aid has said celebrating a man... i don't care a toss about her, love. it's 25 years ago. so you can take your political nature and do whatever you want with it. you want to talk to me about my knighthood, it is very nice of you to have me, but i couldn't give a toss. and what does the future hold? do you want people to address you as sir geoffrey now? they will address me exactly as they want, like those bowlers did when i was batting. they swore at me. but most people are nice to me. when i walk up the high street, they say, "morning, geoffrey." isay, "morning, love, nice to see you." and that's how it's always going to be. this is just recognition of my cricket. very nice, very honoured, thankful to theresa may,
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and i thank all the people that supported me and cared for me throughout my cricketing career. adina claire is co—chief executive of women's aid. we never heard what you thought because sir geoffrey boycott spoke over my colleague. what do you think about him getting a knighthood? well, in terms of theresa may's legacy, i actually was in downing street the week before she left office and congratulated her on that legacy of the domestic abuse bill. she is very passionate, she's done so she is very passionate, she's done so much for women and it's a tragedy, i think, so much for women and it's a tragedy, ithink, that so much for women and it's a tragedy, i think, that a convicted domestic abuser, a convicted perpetrator, has been honoured in this way. it sounds completely the wrong message. why would theresa may have given him this honour knowing, as you have just described, that she has been a big supporter of domestic
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abuse charities and those who are abused? well, it's interesting, i come from yorkshire, so i know that geoffrey boycott is an absolute idle and hero to the people of yorkshire and hero to the people of yorkshire and people who follow cricket. so i don't know whether it's a case of, as his cricketing career and sporting legacy has overwritten other considerations,... sporting legacy has overwritten other considerations, . .. what message does it send to people about domestic abuse, do you believe?“ sends a really terrible message to survivors, who, at the time when prosecutions and convictions are going down, it tells survivors that they are not important. and i think that's a terrible message to send women. we heard from a senior conservative mp earlier that this was over two decades ago. he was found guilty in a french court. he
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was punished, given a three—month suspended sentence, he was fined. people should be allowed to move on with their lives. he's expressed no remorse, doesn't admit his crime, he has been done up he said he didn't do it. he has been convicted and i question whether any other violent crime or and anyone convicted of violent crime would have received an honour in this way. it sounds com pletely honour in this way. it sounds completely the wrong message to survivors. theresa may was wrong to give as noted in your view. absolutely, yes, sounds completely the wrong message. should the knighthood be ta ken the wrong message. should the knighthood be taken away from him? he shouldn't have had in the first place. i believe it should be taken away, absolutely. rebelwithout a cause on twitter said on as are demeaned by given even one to a man like this. lou on twitter says theresa may doesn't give a toss either because as a survivor of domestic abuse i give a toss about
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the fact a convicted perpetrator has been given a knighthood as it shows how society belittles these crimes. dragging all this up from 21 years ago isn't something to do about the fa ct ago isn't something to do about the fact he's pro—brexit, by any chance? jonny says this demonstrates the british class system at its finest. there is no chance a footballer with a similar background would be honoured. thank you very much for all of those. thank you for your time this morning. thank you for your company today. have a good day. good morning. some of us started with a bit of patch of mist and fog this morning. quite an autumnal feel but much of it is now cleared away. we've got some dry and bright weather across many parts of the uk. lovely blue skies and sunshine here in east sussex. we continue with
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some fine weather across england and wales up into scotland. some sunshine, but the cloud increasing in northern ireland and the west of scotla nd in northern ireland and the west of scotland and hear heavy rain starting to move its way in with a strengthening wind. elsewhere, though, it should feel warmer than it did yesterday. tempers getting up to 17-20. this it did yesterday. tempers getting up to 17—20. this area of rain, re m na nts of to 17—20. this area of rain, remnants of the effects of hurricane dorian. moving its way southwards. patchy rain across southern areas into the early part of wednesday morning. the breeze picking up, not a cold night, temperatures, 11—12. the patchy rain will continue to spread to the south. brighter skies, sunshine developing behind it, gusty winds expected, on wednesday. 111—15 miles an hour in the west of scotland. goodbye.
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you're watching bbc newsroom live. it's11am and these are the main stories this morning. extraordinary scenes in the house of commons as parliament is suspended amid uproar from opposition mps. mps hold up protest signs, and chant "shame on you" at the government benches. this is not, however, a normal prorogation. it is not typical, it is not standard. it is one of the longest for decades and it represents, notjust in the minds of many colleagues but huge numbers of people outside, an act of executive fiat. earlier, borisjohnson suffered his sixth commons defeat in a week, as mps rejected,
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for a second time, his attempt

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