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tv   Legal View With Ashleigh Banfield  CNN  August 21, 2014 9:00am-10:01am PDT

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that's it for me "@this hour." john berman is on vacation. he'll be back soon. "legal view with ashleigh ban field" starts right now. new revelations about a failed rescue mission for american james foley before he was beheaded by isis terrorists. and in just a few moments, a man who spent months in captivity alongside foley shares the terrifying details about their brutal treatment. and in ferguson, missouri, a new witness tells cnn what he saw the moment unarmed teenager michael brown was shot and killed by a police officer. and it differs from other people's accounts. but by how much? and does that matter? what could it mean for the
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investigation into the shooting? hello, everyone. i'm ashleigh banfield. the executioner claimed that it was payback. but cnn has confirmed that months before james foley was beheaded by his jihady captors supposedly in retaliation for u.s. spare air striair strikes simply wanted to be paid off. foley's interior, the news site global post, says the jihadis demanded 100 million euros. that's more than 130 million u.s. dollars. it is not clear exactly how the company responded to the demand, but the united states government, for its part, is well known for not paying any ransom demands. the length to which the u.s. government did go to, however, to try to secure the freedom of jim foley and other american captives has now also come to light. and it's nothing short of amazing. and my cnn colleague, barbara starr, has that. >> reporter: u.s. special forces
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launched a daring raid earlier this summer inside syria to try to rescue james foley and other americans being held by isis. dozens of the most elite u.s. commandos from units like delta force and s.e.a.l. team 6 went in by helicopters. fighter jets and surveillance aircraft provided overhead protection. the u.s. will not disclose the location, but when the commandos arrived, the hostages were not there. several isis operatives were killed. one american slightly injured. the white house says it demonstrates the u.s. will spare no effort to secure the safety of americans and hold their captors accountable. before the operation was revealed, president obama vowed to be relentless in the face of foley's killing at the hands of isis. >> when people harm americans anywhere, we do what's necessary to see that justice is done. >> reporter: british and u.s. intelligence experts now
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analyzing every frame of the video for clues about the murder, especially the british accent of the killer. foley's parents calling for peace. >> jim would never want us to hate or be bitter. we are just very proud of jimmy. >> reporter: so far, isis has not made attacking the west a major priority. but now the killing of foley said to be direct retaliation for u.s. air strikes in iraq, air strikes which are continuing around mosul dam to push isis back. u.s. nerves running high. the state department asking for up to 300 additional u.s. troops for unspecific security reasons in baghdad. the intelligence community worried about what will happen next. >> it's not clear whether the leadership will now pivot towards attacking the west. there's certainly a lot of
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concern that they could. they have the capability to. >> and barbara starr joins me live now from the pentagon. barbara, we're just receiving word from the pentagon, in fact, that there are further air strikes that are being carried out. can you give us some -- shed some light on what's happening? >> well, sure, ashleigh. let's be clear, these are air strikes inside iraq, not syria, where this raid took place. these are air strikes near mosul dam where the u.s. military has been carrying out air strikes for several days against isis positions inside iraq near that dam. they want to make sure isis doesn't regain control of the dam. if they do, the concern is that isis might try and blow it up or make the dam breach or fail, and that would cause a massive humanitarian disaster, would cause massive flooding across iraq. so the u.s. has been keeping on going after these isis positions inside iraq, ashleigh. >> and then, barbara, obviously, the ante was certainly upped. knowing now what we know about the former rescue mission that
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failed and now the threat of an additional hostage that they're keeping, an american named steven sotloff, do we know about the possibility of other kinds of kpan dough raids, any kind of rescue missions that may ultimately save the life of steven or any of the other hostages? >> well, ashleigh, let's be very clear here. these types of missions are the most classified, closely held missions in the united states military. they never talk about them beforehand, but they almost never talk about them afterwards. they want to protect all of their options. they want to protect their tactics, techniques, procedures, how they carry these things out so that they can preserve secrecy to do them again, if they choose to. so nobody is talking about it. you might wonder why this one now, so many months after the fact. they say it's because several news media outlets had information that the raid happened and were about to publish about it. still, much of the detail about this one, even though it happened back earlier in the summer, still very closely held. ashleigh?
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>> cnn's barbara starr at the pentagon. thank you for that. i want to talk more about the first known u.s. ground operation in syria with chris heben. he's not just a former navy s.e.a.l. he was a member of s.e.a.l. team 8, a group reserved for exactly this kind of mission. also joining us author and terrorism expert and cnn national security expert peter bergen. chris, if i can start with you. first off, when this kind of a mission is set out upon and knowing full well that you probably and i know you can't say it, but you probably conducted missions very similar to this, are you given a degree of certainty, and are you also given what the unknowns are? >> you're usually not even launched for the mission unless there's a 75% chance or greater of success. and by success, meaning the person or persons you're supposed to be looking for or getting are actually there. and all of the unknowns are made known to you. the intelligence gathering is massive. it is massive. and it happens at a very high
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rate of speed. you've got guys chewing through intelligence data minute by minute, second by second, sometimes even en route to that compound, building or area in a helicopter or in a vehicle. it's that massive. >> peter bergen, the intelligence that the united states had before launching this operation, do you suspect that it likely came from former hostages who perhaps may have been released through the ransoms paid by western european governments? >> yes, ashleigh, i think that's correct. i mean, i think it's a public fact that quite a number of european hostages have been released. poen, i money, i'm sure, was exchanged. those people have been debriefed. that would be the principal source of information. not the only source. an analog is a bin laden raid, when they were looking for osama bin laden, it wasn't clean even when they went on that raid whether bin laden was in the
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house in pakistan that they raided. so there's always uncertainty. >> so i suppose the question i need to follow that is there's a certain amount of irony, isn't there, that if these terrorists are demanding hundreds offal manies of dollars for the releases of these hostages, they're effectively letting their intelligence walk right out the door. peter? >> well, you know, the demands for money, in the case of the 100 million euros or $132 million, you know, i think that's not a serious demand. you know, the kinds of money that we've seen been paid for hostages are much, much lower than that. but there is obviously a big market here, and the french are willing to pay and other european countries. and it's not an accident that so many of the hostages are french. in fact, very few of the hostages taken by these kind of jihadist terrorist groups are american or british because it's well understood that there is no money in these kinds of cases. >> all right. chris, one more question for you about the secondary mission, if there is one. obviously, mission number one is
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to get your targets to rescue the people you're meant to rescue. but if you show up and they're not there, what's mission number two? get enemy combatants for further interrogation to find out where they went? >> if necessary, if possible. eliminate some of the enemy. if you're allowed to, take captives with you. you will, but you're going to gather as much data as you can, photographs, documents. interviewing people, whatever. so it's basically an opportunity to get whatever you can from that situation and bring it back so it can be studied and used against them. >> you both have been very insightful, and i thank you both for your team. peter bergen and chris heben, thank you. and hopefully we'll be able to speak again. next i'll be speaking live with a fellow hostage of jim foley. nicholas was held hostage in syria for ten months. and many of those months he was with jim foley. he's going to tell us what it was like after this.
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before his horrific killing on a barren desert, jim foley spent almost a year and nine months as a prisoner of islamic radicals. and remarkably, he had been through a similar ordeal just one year earlier in libya. he had been freed. but few people on earth can fully understand what foley endured and what other western captives have endured and continue to endure, those who are still being held. but nicholas henning can. he's a fellow french journalist, a freelance journalist, and he was held captive in syria for
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ten months before his release in april. he spent seven of those months with jim foley. and nicholas is kind enough to join me live via skype from paris right now. thank you so much for taking the time to be with us. if i could just ask you right off the bat, what were those seven months like? specifically, how did jim foley do? how did you do? how were you treated? what was he like? >> well, to be a hostage is not an easy thing. it's a lot of stress, a lot of pressure all the time, a lot of starvation as well. we basically are always lacking everything. and jim was a very good friend and a great support. and he was always here when one
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of us was feeling not so well to just have some nice words. he was always extremely understandable and -- well, he was a great friend. it sounds strange for me to say that he managed to make these seven months of captivity for me easier. somehow it did. because it was just great to have him with me. yeah. >> i can't imagine for a moment what this news may have been like for you. it's been difficult for so many of us who didn't know him, and now -- there seems to be such a desire for retribution of some kind, or at the very least to find the people who did this. and to that end, the investigative forces in britain and in the united states seem to
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be throwing everything at this investigation. they want to find the perpetrators. and there have been reports in great britain about the killer speaking with a british accent, and some are suggesting that he may actually be named john. and he may come from south england, perhaps even east london, and that it's possible former hostages not only knew him but knew of a group of british militants and nicknamed them the beatles because they were british. do you know anything about john? >> no, i don't. >> or the beatles? >> no, i don't. >> nothing at all? >> no. >> do you think that that's something that will at least be a lead for the americans or the british or anyone else who's investigating there? >> it can be. it can be. >> it can be. >> i think it's -- >> go ahead. >> -- if the investigators try to go this discretion, i think it would mislead themselves seriously. >> you think it would be
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misleading for them to go down this route for john or this group nicknamed the beatles? >> yes. >> can i ask you, you know, thank god you were released. and you made it home to your loved ones. and jim foley, there was a ransom request that was made. the americans don't meet those ransom requests. the western europeans are known to do it, although no one will ever confirm it. do the captives, you yourself and jim and steve sotloff, do they noknow this metric? >> yes, of course. >> so when you are released, is that known to the americans that they're watching the western europeans leave because their governments paid for them? >> i was paid for. i don't know what was the term of transfer. i presume there has been a bargain because -- well, i have no clue what it was. >> yeah. >> i can't say.
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i mean -- >> did you ever have any kind -- i'm sorry, we have a delay between us. >> -- as a hostage. >> what was that? can you repeat that? >> there are many things we can get in exchange for the release of a hostage. not only money. >> did you know or were you held with steven sotloff? sorry. we have a delay, unfortunately. it's difficult to communicate. >> -- as i said. >> did you know steven sotloff? were you ever held with him as well? >> yes. >> the american who's being held now? and what do you know about him? >> he was doing as good as he could according to the circumstances. >> and when you see these threats that are being made now for the americans to stop an air campaign and air strikes against isis targets in iraq in exchange to save the life of steve
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sotloff, do you believe these isis killers? do you believe they would actually spare his life? >> i don't know. i can't answer this question. i'm not in a position to answer this question. it is a question to ask to the leaders in the west or to the leaders of the group, of isis. >> do you think there's any chance steven sotloff will survive his captivity? >> yes, sir. >> it's so good of to you speak with us, nicholas. thank you so much for shedding light on this and for sharing your thoughts about jim foley. it's a very sad time for everyone and for you and those who knew him in particular. i appreciate your time, sir. >> you're welcome. >> thank you. and now to the other big story that's been breaking. the michael brown shooting in ferguson, missouri. there is a brand-new witness who's come forward to describe what happened when brown was shot by officer darren wilson.
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>> about time i get outside, he's already turned around, facing the officer. he has his arms, like, under his stomach, and he was halfway down like he was going down. >> mm-hmm. >> and the officers lets out three or four shots at him. that would be my daughter -- hi dad. she's a dietitian. and back when i wasn't eating right, she got me drinking boost. it's got a great taste, and it helps give me the nutrition i was missing. helping me stay more like me. [ female announcer ] boost complete nutritional drink has 26 essential vitamins and minerals, including calcium and vitamin d to support strong bones and 10 grams of protein to help maintain muscle. all with a delicious taste. grandpa! [ female announcer ] stay strong, stay active with boost.
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a big lightning storm, calmer policing, you can credit what you want, but the protests in ferguson, missouri, stayed very peaceful last night. meanwhile, attorney general eric holder who visited that town
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where 18-year-old mike brown was killed, yesterday he promised that the investigation into the shooting would be fair. >> the people of ferguson can have confidence in the federal agents, investigators and prosecutors who are leading this process. our investigation will be fair. it will be thorough. and it will be independent. the national outcry we have seen speaks to a sense of mistrust and mutual suspicion that can take hold in the relationship between law enforcement and certain communities. >> reiterating that promise on live television this morning. by the way, some of the evidence that's going to likely determine whether police officer darren wilson is going to face charges for the death of 18-year-old mike brown will likely be all of those eyewitness accounts of the shooting. and as the days go by, a whole lot more of those witnesses are coming forward, and many of them seem to have slightly differing stories. and a brand-new eyewitness has
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just told cnn his versions of events, adding to what the grand jury's information they are considering. here's what brady told anderson cooper about what he saw when mike brown was shot. >> reporter: when did you first realize something was happening? >> well, this was a little bit after 11:30ish. a friend of mine actually woke me up out of a nap. he comes over. i stepped outside with him for three to five minutes. after that, i come in, say something to my fiancee in the kitchen. then i goes into the bedroom. but then after two minutes in the bedroom, i heard an altercation outside. >> reporter: so what did you do then? >> when i heard the altercation, i looks out the window, and i see somebody at the ferguson police window, some kind of tussle going on here. >> reporter: so you saw somebody at the window of the police car? >> yes. >> reporter: the police officer was still in the vehicle? >> yeah, inside the vehicle. so like i say, there was some kind of tussle going on. he also had a friend also.
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he runs on the side of the car because all of a sudden it just takes off running. >> reporter: did you see what the tussle was around? did you see, was one person being pulled in or pulled out? >> no, he was at the window. it looked like he was trying to get away. >> reporter: you couldn't tell exactly what was going on. >> yeah. i just seen some kind of tussle going on through the window. like i said, he has a friend also. and he was standing in the front of the police cruiser on the bumper side, on the passenger side, but, like, five feet away from it, though. and like i say, all of a sudden they just take off running. mr. brown, he just runs directly down the middle of the street. and his friend, there was a car that was parked on the sidewalk, the ferguson cop, his vehicle was in the middle of the street diagon diagonal. so they take off running. >> reporter: had there been a shot when there was still that tussle in the police car? >> i didn't hear the shot. i didn't hear the shot. quite a few people that was
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around said they heard a shot go off in the car. >> reporter: the important thing is what you heard. you did not hear it. >> right. you so i definitely didn't hear that. so like i say, his friend takes off running. and like i said, the parked car was on the side -- on the side -- on the sidewalk. and like i say, it was probably, like, five feet away from the police cruiser in the middle of the street. so like i said, it justs takes off running. and i see the officer gets out to the car, and just immediately starts shooting. eve >> reporter: you you're saying he didn't say anything? he didn't -- >> like i said, i didn't hear. because everything -- i'm still in the window. i'm still in the window. so when he gets out of the car, i see the first shot as mr. brown -- like i say, he's directly in the middle of the street running with his back your honor itted, running away, and he's probably about 20 feet down. and his other friend, he was around the car on the trunk side of it. so i see him, you know, looking up at the cop just to see where he's at. when he gets out of the car, he
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lets out, like, one or two shots. but at that time, he's already past his own police vehicle. and mr. brown's friend, what he ran to, as he was in shooting range position, he walked past the vehicle to where his friend ran to. >> mm-hmm. >> so i think that the officer knew where his friend is. i'm just saying it's showing me that he wasn't shooting at his friend. >> reporter: you said there were one or two shots, you think? >> yeah, the very first one. >> reporter: the first one. >> the first one when he gets out. >> reporter: did you see if mike brown was hit by any of those shots? >> no, i don't think he may be was at the time because, like i said, he was 20, 25 feet down. so obviously, he was still running. >> reporter: right. because we don't know -- the autopsy said there were at least six shots that hit mike brown, but we don't know how many shots may have been fired, if there were other shots that were fired, if other bullet casings have been collected. we don't know. >> right. >> reporter: you said you heard one or two.
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then what happened? >> i'd definitely say one or two, but like i say, he still had his back turned and i noticed he passed his friend up. that's when i decided i'm going to run outside with my phone and see what i could get. so i runs outside so quick. by the time i gets outside, he's already turned around facing the officer. he had his arms, like, under his stomach. and he was, like, halfway down like he was going down. and the officer lets out three or four shots at him. so like i said, just like the body, i took a few pictures in the video, how his body on the ground just like with his arms tucked in. that's how he got shot or whatever. but like i said before, he went down. he was already like this, and he took, like, one or two steps going towards the officer. and he, like i said, let go three or four more shots at him. >> reporter: you're saying it's your impression that he was essentially falling down onto
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the ground or going down onto the ground? >> yeah. >> reporter: because there is an account by a friend of the -- allegedly a friend of the officer said that the officer is claiming and sources with the investigation back this up is what the officer's claim is that mike brown was running forward the officer. did you see him running toward the officer in any way? >> no, no. not after when he was running away, no. not at all. like i said, by the time i come outside, i'm thinking he's now hit after i seen the officer shooting at him while he was running away. so i'm thinking that he's hit because now he's turned around. like this. like he was going down. it didn't even look like that he was getting up. it just looked like, you know, oh, i'm hit. i'm going to go down. that's what it looked like. >> that was your impression. >> yeah, yeah. >> so from what you saw, there weren't hands up or anything. >> yeah. i didn't see no hands up. if he did, i probably just missed it from going out from my bedroom, going outside. >> right. there was a gap in what you saw.
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>> yeah. and on top of that, and there was also a gap of from the officer pausing as he was shooting. like i say, i was in the window, and he shoots a couple of times. and by the time i gets outside, he's shooting again. so i really didn't hear a shot between running. he probably did. >> you don't know. >> yeah. >> this entire thing, about how quickly, from the time you first heard what sounded like a tussle and started seeing that tussle to the time mike brown was down on the ground, how long do you think? >> it was -- i would definitely say it was seconds. not even a minute. >> reporter: it all was quick. >> yeah, it was just quick. it was quick. definitely quick. probably, what, within 30 seconds, 40 seconds, maybe. >> michael brady's account to our anderson cooper. interestingly enough, as of last night when he conducted that
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interview, michael brady had not been canvassed by any federal authorities yet. so you can only imagine that of the 100 or so witnesses that have been interviewed by the feds, there's still more to be interviewed before the full story could possibly be reached. and by the way, his version is the latest of several different witnesses who have come forward to describe the shooting of michael brown, at least come forward to the press. certainly other people have spoken quietly to authorities. but how will the differing stories impact any case that could be brought against officer dare wren wilson? you'll find out next. (male announcer) it's happening.
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a grand jury is hearing evidence in the mike brown shooting case and whether police officer darren wilson is going to face any charge. all of that still hangs in the balance. perhaps the biggest issue in the case against wilson could be the differing accounts from the eyewitnesses. all of their accounts so far that have been public anyway because there are many that we probably know nothing about, they have slight variations. i want to discuss this with cnn legal analyst paul cowan and legal analyst danny savallo as well. sometimes a slight difference can be a massive chasm. all of the accounts you've heard so far, do you see any problems, or do you see, for the most part, consistency? >> well, i think it's consistent in the sense that we always expected that one side would have a story that favored mike brown. and once we hear the officer's story, it's going to nothing
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like we've heard before. there's going to be a lot of inconsistency. but inconsistency between the eyewitnesses we've heard from so far can present a problem. you start to build that reasonable doubt. even though a witness who has no interest in the outcome like this brady that we've heard from, mr. brady, he is a disinterested witness, which in the world of eyewitness testimony -- >> is the best. >> -- is probably the strongest. however, consider how the credibility of that witness can be brought down by maybe another interested witness like dorian johnson whose credibility may be a little more suspect. the problem for the prosecution in a case like this is that the more eyewitnesses, there is more potential for discrepancies. and those discrepancies can be exploited by any defense attorney. >> i think that's the point. those discrepancies can be exploited by masterful attorneys in a courtroom. we've seen it happen many times. >> like paul callan. >> like paul callan who's about to explain to me why i'm hearing a lot of critics saying that
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even if officer wilson is indicted, charged, that missouri makes it nearly impossible for a conviction. i don't think i've heard that terminology anywhere in american jurispruden jurisprudence, but some are saying you'll never see a conviction in this case. why or why not? >> it's a bunch of legalese, doublespeak that means nothing. every state in the union phrases its laws a little bit differently. but missouri, like every place else, in the end it means one thing. if self-defense is put on the table by the defense, it's in the case, and the prosecution has to disprove it beyond a reasonable doubt. now, in missouri, they use the term "preponderance of the evidence," puts it in the case. >> it's a balance. >> another state, they say there has to be a prima facie showing. in another case they say the defense has the burden of moving forward. but you know what a trial judge does? he says, is there any evidence of self-defense? if there is, okay, you, mr.
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prosecutor, have to disprove it beyond a reasonable doubt. >> which is huge. >> so the law professors can argue about this and say it makes a big difference. but people who actually try cases know it's not going to make any difference. it's the same in missouri as any place else. if the jury believes the cop, he wins. if they believe people who supports mike brown's contentions, the family's contentions, the co. is going to get convicted. >> that's if this ever gets to a grand jury indictment, charge and then ultimately to trial. i mean, those are a lot of different steps, and there could be all sorts of things that thwart that process or change it in any way. thank you both. st. louis area police, by the way, yesterday shot and killed another african-american man they say posed a threat. the man was wielding a knife and advancing on them. so the question becomes, as you look at the video, did the officers react too quickly, or did they follow standard procedure? we're going to go through the video with an expert in police training and protocol, and you will hear for yourself what the police are trained to do in a
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circumstance just like this. big day? ah, the usual. moved some new cars. hauled a bunch of steel. kept the supermarket shelves stocked. made sure everyone got their latest gadgets. what's up for the next shift? ah, nothing much. just keeping the lights on. (laugh) nice. doing the big things that move an economy. see you tomorrow, mac. see you tomorrow, sam. just another day at norfolk southern. wouldn't it be great if hiring plumbers, shopping online is as easy as it gets. carpenters and even piano tuners were just as simple? thanks to angie's list, now it is. start shopping online from a list of top-rated providers.
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less than four miles away from ferguson, in st. louis, another fatal shooting involving two white police officers and a young black man. it happened on tuesday. and police say 23-year-old powell walked out of a convenience store with two energy drinks and a package of pastries but did not pay for them. police were called. and then as they arrived, once outside, he came at the officers brandishing a knife. 20 seconds after the police arrived, they opened fire, and kajimi was killed. we have cell phone video of the fatal shooting. i just want to warn you, it is very graphic. cnn has chosen to freeze the footage right before powell is shot. but you can certainly see what transpires, and you can hear the
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audio. have a look. >> the police pull up. y'all call the police? >> get your hands out of your pockets. >> he's got his gun out. oh [ bleep ] oh [ bleep ] oh [ bleep ]! oh [ bleep ]! [ gunshots ] >> damn! >> oh, my god. >> after the shooting, people were immediately upset. protesters gathered at that scene. the shooting was fueling more controversy over excessive force by police. our chris cuomo and our don lemon were able to speak with the st. louis police chief last night after this had happened, obviously. and they asked him the question that a lot of people want to know.
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couldn't the police have done something else other than killing him? >> why use bullets? why not use a stun gun? >> well, certainly a taser is an option that's available to the officers. but tasers around 100%. so you've got an individual armed with a knife who's moving towards you, not lisping to verbal commands, says shoot me now, kill me now. if that taser misses, that subject continues on and hurts an officer. >> so the two officers who were involved have been placed on administrative duty, and that's per department policy. i want to bring in david clinger in ferguson, missouri, an associate professor of criminal justice at the university of missouri-st. louis. he's also a former police officer and an expert in police tactics involving officer-involved shootings and the use of deadly force. david, thanks very much for being with me right now. i know you've seen the video several times over. i just want to get your overall thought as to whether you think to the letter proper protocol
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was actually followed here or if you think this was -- and i hate to use the term, but i will -- overkill. >> first of all, thanks for having me, and sorry that we have to come and talk once again about a tragic circumstance. but getting to the point of your question, no, it's not overkill, and let me explain why. it could be that there's something going on that i'm not aware of, but if you look at the video closely, what you see is all of the aggressive action by the suspect towards the officers. one of the things with he train officers to do when they are coming upon someone who's article earmed with an edged weapon, a baseball bat, whatever, is to keep their distance. and what they did is they pulled up and kept their distance. they exited their vehicle, started giving verbal commands and the suspect came forwards them. i think another thing in my mind that w was telling, he walks past the officer, basically goes parallel to where the two officers are and then starts to move in
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towards the passenger officer. and also, what he does is he moves up onto this elevated parking lot, curb, whatever that might be. and if i'm a police officer reading this, what i'm seeing is he's selected which of us he wants to try to take out, and he's going to the high ground. when one is in a high ground position, that puts the police officers at a tanctical disadvantage. another thing i think you need to be aware of is police officers are trained that when a suspect is moving aggressively towards them with an edged weapon such as a knife, when they get to within 20, 25 feet or so, it starts to become that area where you really have to be alert. if they continue to breach that line in the sand as it were mentally, use of deadly force is appropriate. and so these officers were actually very restrained up until the point that they decided that they needed to shoot to stop the threat to their life. >> one of the things that's difficult for, i think, our viewers to understand is, we had
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to bleep out a lot of that video and audio because of the swear words of the person -- or the people behind the lens. and therefore, you can't hear a lot of what is transpiring between the suspect and the officers, which i think is difficult. but we do know this. he was saying things like "shoot me" or "kill me," and they were saying things like "freeze, stop, put the weapon down." still, to that end -- >> right. >> -- does an officer, when he or she has chosen that it is time to discharge my weapon, is the only goal shoot to kill, or are there other goals in other circumstances? >> the goal is never shoot to kill. the goal is always shoot to stop the slethreat. and there's two ways you can stop them from moving. one is shut down the central nervous system. the other way is to do what we basically call hydraulic evacuation. it's a terrible technical term,
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but that is so shoot and to damage the organs so that the blood goes out. that's really the only two ways you can stop somebody. if somebody is shot, a good friend of mine in los angeles was literally shot through the heart in a shootout with a bad guy, and somehow she managed to stay alive. and so she managed to stay alive long enough to kill the suspect, get away from the area, and retreat to an area in front of her vehicle for safety where she collapsed. and there's an example of someone being shot literally with what should have been a fatal wound and managing to carry a fight on. >> and so david clinger, just to be clear, there was somewhere around nine shots fired by those two officers. you're saying that wasn't necessarily an effort to kill. that was something possibly else. and i just have to get a quick answer, if possible. >> it's an effort to stop, ma'am. >> okay. david, thank you so much. i appreciate your insight into this. again, sorry we meet under these circumstances yet again. david clinger for us live in missouri. >> thanks for having me. so who is behind the brutal killing of american hostage james foley? we're going to have the very latest efforts to track him
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down, whoever he was behind that coward's black mask. you're driving along,
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linguistic experts say the executioner who was pictured in that video, he speaks with a type of british accent that is kp common in london's east end. and clues are also coming in from european captives who were held by the same group and later set free for ransom. they told "the guardian" that the executioner was one of three british handlers they referred to as the beatles because of their british accents. cnn's atika shubert joins us from london. there were so many pieces they're trying to put together, but we just did an interview with someone who was held alongside jim foley for seven months. nicholas henin said he didn't think he remembered anyone named john with a british accent, nor did he say he knew anything about the baelgss and suggested it be the wrong road to go down if the investigators are looking into that area. did that surprise you from what you're researching today, atika? >> no, that doesn't surprise me
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in the sense that there have been a number of kidnappings conducted in syria. and what tends to happen is that one group will then, say, carry out, capture someone and then hand them over to another group and another group and another group. so we're talking about multiple captors. it could be that one group is held by, say, a group of british jihadis, but another group is held by a different group of r foreign fighters. it doesn't mean there's only one so-called beatles group. i think what investigators are looking at is a lot of different possibilities, and this is one of them. >> and what about the fact that the executioner was left-handed, was wearing timberland boots and has that specific accent? are they saying that's been tremendously helpful? >> they haven't said that that's specifically helpful, but the accent is one thing that linguistic experts are looking at. and one linguistic expert we talked to said they basically have a data bank that looks at not only video recordings but audio recordings of known jihadists that have gone into
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syria. so what they'll be doing is now comparing that voice there and looking at what they already have and seeing if they can find somebody that matches that exact audio recording. what we do know from talking to linguistic experts is this is somebody who grew up here in england, probably considers themselves very british, well educated and very articulate. >> atika, thank you for that. and thank you, everyone, for joining us. my friend don lemon is in for wolf in the next hour. he's reporting live from ferguson, missouri, and he starts right after this quick break.
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hello, everyone, i'm don lemon. we want to welcome our viewers right near in the united states and around the world. i'm reporting live from ferguson, missouri. we're going to bring you all the latest developments from here in ferguson. in the meantime, i want to tell you that a tense calm has settled over the city, but there is no letup in the demand for answers about the fatal police shooting of 18-year-old michael brown. attorney general eric holder said today his department's investigation into the shooting will be fair, thorough and independent. his comments come on a day after he visited here, meeting with brown's family as well as

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