iran's stockpile and how it was growing. this is how the whole thing began. >> our team read that story this morning and was quite frankly perplexed because the main contentions of it are just totally inaccurate. the notion that somehow iran is doing something it's not supposed to be doing, again, it's just not accurate. >> so the story she's alluding to is written by david sanger at "the new york times." they've been tweeting back and forth. have you been following this twitter ping-pong? what do you make of this whole twitter spat? >> we're seeing the stories. we've not been following all of it back and forth. i will tell you this brooke. once iran has learned how to make a nuclear weapon you cannot for lack of a better term unlearn them untrain them. so they have the technology. they have the know how. with their stockpile of fuel growing, and nobody argues that with the stockpile of fuel growing, that puts them dangerously closer to a nuclear weapon on a time frame. how much longer do we want to

give them to keep moving toward a nuclear weapon? we would argue none in fact especially when they're holding americans hostage. >> congressman randy weber, thank you so much for taking the time today. we're thinking about those families here at home. i know they want their loved ones back. thank you. >> our prayers are with them. thank you, brooke. >> yes, sir. top of the hour. you're watching cnn. breaking news i'm brooke baldwin. major developments in a story that brings together really two of the biggest story lines thus far this year. terrorism and police shootings. this dragnet now widens this a terror case that's left one suspect dead in boston. now a second suspect has been arrested. david wright is supposed to be in federal court right now. we may also learn at this upcoming hearing how wrooigight who was arrested tuesday, knew the man who was killed at this scene here earlier that month. his brother says is police shot

26-year-old usaama rahim in the back but today leaders of both the black and the muslim communities are in boston and seem to support much of the version of events as told to us by police and fbi. the police commissioner boston says rahim came at officers with a large knife. a boston officer and fbi agent fired, killing rahim. in a show of transparency 24 hours later basically, authorities showed this video of this confrontation from this sort of distant surveillance video to these leaders in boston. one of those boston area leaders spoke with me just last hour. >> i think today was a terrific step. here's what we saw. number one, it was not at a bus stop. number two, the -- mr. rahim was advancing at one point towards the officer. number three, he was not shot in the back. the video is from a distance so everything else is fairly

inconclusive. >> could you see the weapon? could you see him holding this as authorities describe this large military-style knife, approaching law enforcement? >> you know myself unfortunately, because the video is from quite a distance i could not see it. most of the leaders in the room could not see that. >> let's go to cnn justice correspondent pamela brown. she's in boston outside of where this hearing will be taking place with this second suspect. do we know pam, how this suspect knew the man who was killed knew usaama rahim? >> we're hoping to learn more brooke when he appears in court. we know from the u.s. attorney's office that the documents haven't been filed yet. there's still a lot of questions about what his relationship was to the suspect who was killed yesterday. but i'm being told from law enforcement sources that this relationship between the two was more than just an online relationship. there was more to it.

of course there is a third person law enforcement is looking at who's not been arrested. authorities raided his home last night. we're learning a little bit more about the concern among law enforcement. we know that the suspect who was killed he had been under 24/7 surveillance by law enforcement. they were very concerned about him and we're being told he had discussed several plots. one, according to my colleague, included beheadings. the other they talked about attacking police officers. my colleagues say that it didn't appear that there was any viable plot that they were about to do or anything operational. i will tell you from talking to law enforcement officials, they were concerned about the suspect that was killed yesterday and the fact he was under 24/7 surveillance really tells you something. they didn't know what would trigger him at any moment. that's what we're being told. again, hoping to learn more about who david wright is and what his relationship specifically was with the suspect who was killed.

brooke? >> hold on. quickly, pamela, because i'm listening to you and jotting down notes. so potentially plotting to attack police no operational plot. you mentioned the beheading. beheading of whom? >> we don't know. what we're being told and what my colleagues are being told that it doesn't appear that there was a specific viable plot to behead police officers but they had talked about beheadings. separately it talked about another plot to attack police officers. i think that's key. at this point, we're being told from law enforcement officials that there wasn't anything operational but that they were very concerned about the suspect that was killed and about his associate, david wright. so we are hoping to learn more about what exactly was in the works, brooke. >> got it. pamela brown, thank you so much. we'll keep in close contact with you as this hearing is about to get under way. let's broaden out the discussion. let's bring in cnn political commentator buck sexton. also with me retired lieutenant

colonel scott mann who's with the army special forces. welcome to both of you. buck let me begin with you here. listening to pamela really the headline that jumped out at me we knew there were interests, a plot to target police officers perhaps government officials. also reports that he the man who was killed and the other two associates were radicalized by isis or other extremist elements. listening to these different threats, how do you read that? >> based upon similar cases we've seen in the past i think the assumption here would be there was some radicalization that occurred online. we know that isis has put out a call. this was earlier in the year -- >> to attack officers. >> specifically. so isis is saying pick your own target don't wait for us to tell you. if you want to take part in your own personal jihad here on american soil or anywhere in the world, you can do that. attack cops law enforcement personnel, military personnel, government personnel. that's already out there. on the issue of the surveillance and the operational nature of

this or where it was on that scale, the fact they have them under 24/7 surveillance -- >> 24/7 surveillance. >> this is rare. this is unusual. this would only happen if it was an imminent threat a very serious threat if they were worried about a transition from just ideological jihadization into an operational phase. these officers may not have had a warning of exactly when it was going to happen beyond the date of tuesday, but we're talking about somebody who's saying he wants to behead police. he has a large knife on him. if he wants to take that next step there's not a lot of plotting that has to go into this. if he decides to attack an officer with that knife, we could have a fatality. >> let me play some sound. police radio traffic shows they knew something could happen as they were approaching this man yesterday morning. this is a conversation between an officer and dispatch. roll it.

>> so buck, just staying with you, when they're saying thinking about taking him, presumably meaning arresting. >> that would be the assumption. they also, of course, could just go up and speak to the individual. law enforcement is allowed to do that. look, we want to talk to you. this happens a lot in counterradicalization efforts, when they know somebody has said something concerning on social media. we don't know what the charges are yet. they could have performed an arrest then and there. 20 feet away if you don't have your weapon drawn and somebody has an edged weapon you're in the danger zone. he can get that knife and attack before a lot of people could draw their firearm. >> colonel, as we've been reporting on a number of westerners most of them are quite young, inspired by the

isis brand, for example. so you were saying there is a growing body of evidence showing westerners breaking with their home societies to wage jihad against perceived threats to their faith. what do you mean by that? >> yeah i mean this is something, brooke it's good to see i've talked a lot about in my book "game changers," which is we don't pay a lot of attention to the strategic narrative that isis groups are telling people around the world particularly lyly lyly young folks who are struggling with honor and identity. they're able to tie this narrative to young folks and really mobilize them to do their bidding in ways that don't require a lot of training. look at the reporter a few minutes ago talking about them being close to operational. with this kind of attack it doesn't take much to get operational. a well-told story that mobilizes folks online to strike out is becoming more and more common. i think we're going to see more of it right here in the u.s. >> what about -- buck let me circle back to you on the notion that not even 24 hours later, police and fbi showed the

surveillance video to members of the black and muslim communities in boston just for the sake of transparency. that was quick. >> i think that what we see here is law enforcement recognizing there's a messaging that needs to happen when there's a fatal incident involving anyone and police that they shouldn't allow false narratives to get out there and allow people to think this was an execution. the facts need to get out quickly because it can take a lot more time to dispel a false narrative. >> colonel mann you said the bush and obama administrations have really failed to change the perceptions of america from what elsewhere in the world, specifically what middle east? >> well i just -- watching this war and participating in it for the last 14 years, my sense has been that we really failed to acknowledge and deal with our enemy strategically. with the narrative and the strategic aim points they have out there. we've tried to come out at top

down. we haven't worked bottom up in the tribal and clan societies. we've really ignored this issue of narrative and how these extremist groups are able to tell a story around the world that mobilizes people to action. now we're starting to move on beyond these spectacular attacks, and you're starting to see folks with a little bit of inspiration self-select to go after police officers after military members, and again all of this is designed to draw us deeper into the fight. so we've got to start paying attention to this and, no neither administration has paid enough attention to narrative and story. >> buck bigger question and i know you don't have all the answers, but what's one way to counter that? >> well a way to counter this is to obviously try to make sure that the voices within the islamic world who are decrying jihad and speaking about how this radicalization happens and the reasons why it is in fact outside of the faith, those are voices we need to hold up. >> do the young people care?

do they get them? >> radicalization has been going on for a long time. lone wolf attacks are nothing new. you're not going to have perfect security or counter-radicalization efforts, but they need to continue on. otherwise, we'll see more of these. the frequency of these attacks with the islamic state, with its call around the world, specifically to attack the west and america, we'll see more of these things. it's very corrosive if you have even a small attack that doesn't have any casualties or fatality fatalities associated with it. there's a distrust a corrosive effect in society we want to counter. it's a constant messages effort. >> buck sexton thank you. scott mann thank you. appreciate it. still ahead, rescue crews racing all ourshours of the day, now cutting a whole in this capsized crew ship desperately trying to rescue anyone that could still be alive. will it work? we'll talk to a rescue diver next. also after decades of falling crime rates in new york city a look at what's behind the sudden spike in shootings that has some calling for a return of stop and frisk.

woulds that be the solution? and chilling words inside this courtroom from james holmes. the suspected gunman in the aurora movie theater shooting has taped sessions with a psychiatrist played out here in court. also who he called moments before walking into that movie theater. do not miss this. you're watching cnn.

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trapped in air pockets beneath the hull of a capsized ship, another survivor pulled from this chinese ferry, giving hope to families of other passengers that some may still be alive. >> translator: i have gone beyond the sadness. i am preparing for the worst while still holding on to hope. >> translator: one thing i want

to do the most is to see my mom. >> the clock ticking. right now desperate rescue crews cutting a hole in the upturned hull. joining me now, jack garcia senior rescue diver with miami-dade's fire rescue operations. welcome to you. you did this for 33 years. the idea of cutting this hole in the ship k can you tell me how they'll do that and why and what they're thinking they'll find? >> first of all, thank you for having me on brooke. basically what they're trying to do is gain access to areas of the hull that are inaccessible from any other way. we've done it on a smaller scale here on vessels that were on fire and affected rescues. but this is what we call in the rescue business a mass casualty incident which is difficult at best because of the number of people and the fact it's under

water or in a capsized situation makes it just that more difficult to do. i can't think of anything more dangerous for those rescuers to be doing. >> you know when you think about the timeline of all of this and the fact that they found a survivor overnight -- if someone is alive right now, how is that possible? because even if you find an air pocket, right, and you cling to that how long can you possibly survive? >> well that's just it. it depends on the size of the air pocket and how many people are breathing up the air in that air pocket and whether the air pocket is being replenished with other air from other areas of the hull that might be finding its way up in there. there definitely is a window but that window is closing rapidly. you have to -- if that were to happen here in the states we

would be racing towards that window and making sure that our efforts continued until we were sure there was no one else alive in the hull. >> i was talking to someone yesterday before we knew they'd be cutting a hole in the hull. she was saying that they could raise the ship pump a bunch of air into the ship raise it perhaps help anyone in those air pockets. do you think that would be something that could be viable now, and why would that be helpful? >> it would be extremely difficult to do. i don't see -- >> why? >> it's a huge ship. because of the number of air bags and stuff you would need. i could see that maybe happening with barges and cranes and heavy equipment, but the window is closing very quickly. the best chance those people have is to be pulled out by divers and searching the hull. i don't know how many -- how

effective the rescue that's going on how many divers are involved and any of those details, but in my mind, the quickest way to get those people out there is to go in and get them. >> so tragic because it's mostly elderly on board this cruise. this was along the river. this was supposed to be this incredible trip of a lifetime for so many of them. jack garcia senior rescue diver with miami-dade fire rescue marine operations. thank you so much sir. i appreciate it. >> you're welcome. thank you. when we come back we have some breaking news now out of cleveland involving the investigation into the shooting death of tamir rice. you remember this video. 12 years of age. he was shot and killed by police while holding a fake gun. major developments after this quick break. the pursuit of healthier. it begins from the second we're born. after all, healthier doesn't happen all by itself. it needs to be earned... every day... using wellness to keep away illness... and believing that a single life can be made better

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more breaking news on boston. we have court documents now on the second suspect in this boston terror case. he's having his court hearing at this very moment. dub ra deborah is all over this. more on david wright. >> yes, this is the affidavit they're presenting in court right now during this first appearance. david wright is being charged essentially with material support and advising the suspect, now dead usaama rahim, to destroy his smartphone and wipe his computer. here's what we're learning from these court documents. usaama rahim purchased three knives from amazon.com over the last week that he met with this man, david wright and another individual in rhode island at which time they discussed a plot to kill somebody outside of massachusetts, specifically beheading this unnamed person. they joked about, quote, thinking with your head on a

chest, which the document says suggested the kind of isis beheading that we've come to see. now, on may 27th, federal authorities investigated a package from amazon.com and actually x-rayed that package. they found there was a large knife inside the box. on sunday is when the two men went to rhode island. that's when usaama rahim had said he changed his mind that he was no longer going to behead this unnamed individual. instead, he was going to go after police officers. he was going to kill quote, the boys in blue. that was scheduled, brooke to take place either today or tomorrow. and that's when david wright very early yesterday morning, told rahim, wipe your smartphone, don't bring it to the scene where you're going to go and also destroy the computer. so that's where we are right now. david wright expected to be in court to face these allegations against him. he did waive his miranda rights. that's how law enforcement was able to get this information.

but he was not going to behead police officers. he have he was going to go after police officers. >> that he had gotten these nooifs in the last week perhaps shed a little light on why they wanted to talk to him. deborah, thank you. now breaking news in ohio. the investigation into the shooting death of 12-year-old tamir rice is complete. he was shot and killed by officers while he was holding this pellet gun last november in a snowy park near his home. i've got ryan young following the breaking developments for me right now. so ryan what do we know now? >> well brooke, a lot of people are holding their breath on this one, especially in cleveland. we were just there a week ago. talking to the folks in the neighborhoods, they wanted to watch this case closely. this investigation was turned over to the sheriff's office in february so they could do this independent investigation. we know sheriff investigators have been going through all the evidence, watching that videotape that so many people have seen that reaction when the police car rolls up and then

the officer opens fire on the 12-year-old tamir rice who had that pellet gun. so many people in cleveland wondering what would happen with this investigation. so an independent investigation has been conducted by the sheriff's office. now they've turned that over to the prosecutor. we believe the prosecutor now will take it to the grand jury. then those people will decide what will happen next. so many people in that community are holding their breath. in fact they've talked about if this ever happens in terms of whether or not there will be charges or no charges against the officers they'll try to give community members a heads up before it happens so those community leaders can go out and meet with the community beforehand because obviously they're concerned that if it goes one way or another, there could be unrest in the area. talking to community leaders just this afternoon, they say they knew this process was winding down. now it's in the hands of the prosecutors there, trying to figure out and anticipate what will happen next. >> got it. ryan young, thank you so much. we're going to stay on this. we're going to sneak in a quick commercial break.

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kentucky we have just learned here that the cuyahoga county sheriff's office in cleveland has now officially handed over the shooting investigation of 12-year-old tamir rice. it now sits with the prosecutor. it's up to the prosecutor to determine how to proceed, if he wants to bring charges to these police officers. tamir rice was shot and killed by police officers while holding a fake gun at a park near his

house. let me bring in harry hill. gentlemen, just first on tamir rice before we pivot to something else. thoughts on what's happening. >> i'm encouraged to see that this had been taken to the prosecutor's office. this has been something that people have talked about even a week ago or two weeks ago when the other cleveland case is happening. people say that one is a lot fuzzier. but when we talk about tamir rice this is a kid, 12 years old, officer shows up starts shooting very quickly, calls it in as not a 12-year-old but a 20-year-old, which makes people think again, do law enforcement agents have difficulty reading the situation when black people are involved? so it's a hot-button issue. >> i don't think we're going to have an indictment here at all. the officer did act properly although the fact is their tactics were a little strange. i didn't agree with their tactics here and how they pulled up to that kid and jumped out and started firing right away. i think they should have stopped maybe about 50 feet away and

tried to find out if he was going to take a shot at them or whatever. either way, the officer himself perceived the threat when he got out of the car, fired the shot. this is one of those thing that when a terrible incident like this happens. i had the same type of incident happen with me and a 15-year-old kid but i didn't shoot him. he dropped the weapon and it was a toy also. i don't think we're going to see an indictment here at all pip don't see any civil rights violations against this officer. >> we'll wait to see. we don't know. but that's happening. so we'll watch for that. meantime i want to talk about something we've discussed before. crime is up. decades of falling crime rates. suddenly the number of shootings are spiking, murders up almost 20%. here's the mayor of new york. >> there has been obviously, an uptick in homicides and shootings. it is something we take very very seriously. it's something we're addressing right now. we know for sure that the increase in both murders and shootings has occurred in a

small number of precincts and has been primarily because of gang and crew-related activities. >> it's not just new york. this is happening around the country. police chief in st. louis, we talked about this calling this the ferguson effect. others in new york are blaming the mayor for stopping the police practice of stop and frisk. that's where i want to begin, harry, with you. do you think doing away with stop and frisk is the precise reason why crime is up in the city? >> no but the first thing is stop and frisk has not ended at all. the officers were retrained on how to be able to articulate reasonable suspicion to make a stop. so it's still going on. i think the mayor's talking about he's going to give the police commissioner what he needs, but he's not giving them the 1,000 police officers that he's asking for here. what we're doing is we're putting a temporary patch into some of these precincts where there's a lot of killings going on. police officers are going to stand out there through the summer maybe, they're going to say, okay watch the crime come down. all right. then they're going to pull them out again and it's going to come back up. we need a constant presence in

these precincts for crime to really lower, stay low in this city. >> what do you think, mark? >> a presence is fine but the presence can't become an occupying force. that's one of the reasons why it's important to have strong community relations. i agree with you. it's not just a stop and frisk problem. stop and frisk is something that doesn't build healthy community relations. it doesn't make people want to talk to police or cooperate in helping to solve crimes. it doesn't do any of that. i don't think reinstating stop and frisk is appropriate, even if it were constitutional entirely. the other piece here i think, is figuring out how to get a context where people have access to jobs health care housing, healthy choices. if that happens, this crime also goes down. >> it is important because we've talked over and over all the numbers out over the weekend about how crime is up sort of in many parts of nationwide but we should be specific. it's not -- the reason why it is is not the same in each and every city. people are talking about baltimore specifically and how in the wake of the riots and demonstrations you had the cvs looted and people taking drugs.

because of the drugs what people experts are saying is why the crime is spiking in baltimore. you can't blanket this whole problem. >> no you can't. baltimore's had a problem for a long time. there's been a spike in the crime just like these 11 or 12 different cities we're talking about. i personally believe it's because police officers are being handcuffed more than being able to go out there and proactively work against the criminals in the inner city. >> that's the whole ferguson effect people are referring to. >> i don't think that's the whole reason why crime has spiked at all. but i think a lot of the rhetoric out there has empowered the bad guys. the cops aren't going to stop me as much anymore, so maybe i can carry my gun more. i think that's what's happening. >> i wish cops were handcuffed more when there are unjust killings and shootings. i want to see that in places like ferguson. i want to see bad cops handcuffed. >> bad cops, yeah. >> exactly. first of all, very few police officers are actually tried, convicted, and sentenced for killing civilians. i don't

scenario -- >> you can't say every time a police officer kills somebody a cop has got to go to jail. that's what your inference is here. >> that's not my implication. what i'm saying is that i don't buy into the narrative that so many cops are getting arrested now that they're scared to do their job. cops almost never get arrested and charged. >> because they don't do anything wrong. when they do do something wrong, they're arrested. >> you're saying every cop who does something wrong is arrested? >> i believe so, yes. >> you're telling me every cop in america who's done something wrong has been arrested. >> so you're telling me -- >> we're just really lucky that the three cops who got caught on tape -- >> police departments are turning their back every time they think a police officer does something wrong. remember -- >> no i'm not saying that. i'm saying sometimes. >> we had dozens and dozens and dozens of cases every year. >> for something to get to that requires someone to report it. police don't report each other. >> they do report. not the police officers themselves. >> right. >> the people will call us make

an allegation. all right. then internal affairs will investigate it. >> that's absurd. >> it happens. i did it a million times. >> i'm not saying that no one ever -- >> how could it be absurd? >> i'm going to tell you. what i'm calling absurd is this idea that every cop has committed a crime or done something wrong has been punished or investigated for it. >> you're making a great leap. >> i'm not making a leap at all. >> that there's a lot of cops out there committing crimes not getting caught. >> i don't think he's saying there are a lot of cops out there -- >> there might be some. >> here's the thing. this year three police officers have been charged -- arrested and charged for killing civilians. three. to my knowledge, all three have been on videotape. to accept your logic would be to suggest that every cop who's committed a crime, we've just been lucky enough to have a tape of. and those who didn't just happened to be honest. >> so whenever an officer does something wrong out there, all right, it's knot propnot properly investigated. >> you're taking what i'm saying and moving it. i'm saying sometimes. not all the time. >> you're going to have to give

me those examples. i don't have them. >> i'll give you an example. in charleston before they found the videotape, they said the officer didn't do anything wrong. >> the police report said one thing. then we saw the videotape. >> that was right off the top. >> you're asking for an example. i'm giving you an example. >> i agreed with that. >> you only agreed once you saw the videotape. before the videotape, you said he didn't do anything wrong. >> i did not say that. >> what did to you say? >> hang on hang on hang on. does he have a point? this is something we've talk abouted in some of these cases. so many people take a police report as the god's honest truth. i think because of some of these examples it's caused, you know americans to peel away the layers and think, wait a minute this may not all be factual. >> what i always say is we wait for the investigation to be conducted and completed. that's what i always say when i come on and talk about when a police officer is involved in a situation. i did in that situation there. also the fact that once we saw the video, and i said it straight out this officer should

go to jail drn. >> what i'm saying is most people aren't lucky enough to walk around with a video. >> but you conduct an investigation. i can't tell you how many cases i would love to have on video, but i never it. so i would conduct an investigation. >> but here's the thing. a whole burch of folks go to jail without being caught on tape. police only seem to go to jail when they get caught on videotape. >> that's not true. >> the three times that someone was caught on tape aren't the only three times. >> i locked up plenty of police officers when i was in internal affairs when there was no video. >> but you can conceive more than three officers commit a crime. >> why is that even a question? >> because you just said. we got to go. >> we got to go. we went from crime going up to this but i appreciate putting it all out there, as always. we'll do this again. thanks fellas. next on cnn, what we've learned about james holmes the phone call he made just before he walked into that movie theater in aurora colorado and opened fire. who he called how long he stayed on that phone before he put the phone down.

this is fascinating. this is coming up.

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sustainability and really to keep their overhead low. solar and energy efficiency are all core values of pg&e. they've given us the tools that we need to become more efficient and bottom line save more money. together, we're building a better california. accused theater shooter james holmes says he picked up the phone and actually called a mental health crisis hotline moments before he opened fire in that movie theater, killing a dozen people. holmes says he called while he strapped on body armor and prepped his weapons. watch this. >> at what point did you call the behavioral health hotline or a hotline of some kind? >> like halfway through gearing up. >> from the car then? >> yeah. >> what led you to make that

call? >> just one last chance to see if i should turn back or not. i just went to the very front and sat down in one of the chairs then pulled out my phone to make it look like i had a phone call. >> i'm sorry? >> pull the out my phone to make it look like i had a phone call. then went out the exit. >> joining me now, gail saltz. just to hear that halfway through gearing up he has the presence of mind if that's even the accurate way of saying it to call this hotline. we know the rest of the story. do you think that could have stopped him? >> you know i don't know if i'd call it presence of mind as much as i call it a reflection of ambivalence. there was still some doubt -- >> as to whether he should -- >> as to whether he should continue doing this or not. you don't know from what he's saying whether that has to do

with guilt, regret or the knowledge that this is wrong and e is ill. he's said that for a long time. he knows that he's ill. but it seems unclear as he goes into this in and out of this, how much this is fortified by delusional thought, in other words, why he on the one hand knows he's sick but he's going to do it anyway. and how much it is that he does understand that it's wrong but he feels that he wants to anyway. >> on the will to stop. apparently he also talked about how he had regrets when he was speaking with the psychologist who treated him before the shootings, he said i wish she had put me on lockdown or locked me up. >> again, is that in retrospect? i wouldn't be sitting here responsible for all this facing all this i wish that she had

locked me up -- because he is sick and he knows that he's ill -- versus an actual thought beforehand. i am really ill, i need to be hospitalized. i can't do it for myself. i wish someone would step in. this is not unusual for someone who has schizophrenia or serious psychiatric illness wanting someone to help them or intervene and on another level, not wanting to be hospitalized, not wanting to take medication. >> i'm just so mindful as i read these details of the families in the courtroom, some of whom have had to leave. you are allowed to cry but not more than that. hearing him say that he had the opportunity to shoot some of the police officers but he didn't want to shoot certain police officers who had their backs to him yet we know what he did. >> right. >> i'm perplexed. >> there's this bizarre separation between empathy or certain situations like shooting

someone in the back or shooting children that doesn't seem to fit with what he did overall, which seems to lack empathy, his idea that he also states it was the numbers of people that i could take out essentially because i felt that somehow they had worth and their worth became mine after i killed them. so that sounds delusional, that sounds to make no sense. i think what you have to look at for this is yes, he is ill, clearly he is ill. but he knew what he was doing was wrong. that is where the legal definition becomes separate. most people that commit crimes like this are not mentally ill. but if you are and you know it's wrong and you commit the crime anyway, it's still punishable. you can be very very ill and still be legally responsible for committing a crime. even though you have illness. the question is if he was delusional about why he committed this and not understanding it was wrong, that would be due to his mental

illness and then like say a john hinckley he should spend his life in a psychiatric facility. >> doctor thank you so much for your time. next days after her big announcement caitlyn jenner has more news. she's starring in a new reality series. my next guest knows exactly what it's like to be a transgender woman in hollywood. her take on all of this in 60 seconds.

caitlyn jenner is ready to live and fully document her life as a woman. and now a new promo clip from her much-anticipated reality series "i am kate" has been released. here she is. >> you go through all the stuff and you start learning kind of the pressure that women are under all the time about their appearance. put it this way, i'm the new

normal. >> joining me now, erica irvin who played the role of amazon eve in "american horror story freak show," the world's tallest model who came out as transgender 11 years ago. great having you on. >> it's erica irvin. >> forgive me. erica. i know exactly who you are. i want to get into your story in just a moment. but first, i want your reaction to the video of caitlyn jenner. this is the first time we're hearing from her after reading this very lengthy "vanity fair" article. >> the first thought that came to my mind was the wheaties box. when i was a kid, i remember bruce jenner as this superman athlete that they promoted as this incredible sports star.

and he's now -- or she is now an american icon. what the american public is shocked about is the man is gone, the super is still there. >> the super is still there. >> oh yes. >> let me talk about you because i understand when you auditioned for this role when you auditioned for amazon eve and the series the show called for men to audition you bound your breast you dressed as a male but the show creator said no no no we want you to be the woman you are. but your family they weren't quite as receptive. what was that like coming out to them? >> are we talk about the show or my family? >> your family please, ma'am. >> okay. my family wasn't as accepting. it was difficult for them. and i have some tension with them right now.

and i didn't receive a lot of acceptance from them at first. they told me do not write, do not call you're no longer welcome in our home. when i started coming out, when i started revealing who i was to them. and that created -- >> and all these years later? >> all these years later, i still keep in touch with my brother from time to time. we do communicate. and i have been blessed by having a lot of extended family and friends. some people in this business and some people in europe. i do travel a lot. and i do have the opportunity and blessed to be a public figure as an actor and an entertainer and have this platform to speak to the publics listening about this coming-out of caitlyn jenner. she's a marvelous woman. she's beautiful and what a coming-out, my god. look at the super there.

it's just oozing in super. it's like, bam! she's exhausting to look at. >> let's talk about your super because i imagine you definitely turn heads in public for your height and who you are. you're in the spotlight. caitlyn jenner is in the spotlight. how hard or what are the challenges for caitlyn jenner when she's out and about? >> well being misgendered, being called "sir," people judge you based on how you look. and being passable and presenting the way caitlyn is right now. she's going to receive less criticism, less violence. there's this cultural war almost against transgender people. and there's no front line, there's no battlefield. there's nobody to aim at. it's a rescue mission.

and when you have someone of the car star caliber as bruce, now caitlyn jenner coming out, it moves the conversation forward, that we are part of you, we come from you. and it costs less to treat this condition than not to. and we have a large gap between where we are and where we need to be. i've seen a lot of great progress in terms -- legislatively moving the conversation for the removal of the health insurance exclusion out of contracts in california the eeoc including us in the 1964 civil rights act under sex discrimination. and having bruce jenner become caitlyn jenner the super is still there. and it's obvious. >> erika ervin, thank you so much. >> thank you. >> i really appreciate your time. this is a conversation we've been having every day this week. and it's an important one to

have. it's part of the national dialogue in the wake of caitlyn jenner's story. thank you so much. >> thank you. i'm brooke baldwin. thank you so much for being with me. we'll see you same time, same place tomorrow. in the meantime, to washington we go. "the lead" with jake tapper starts right now. a would-be terrorist in boston in his own words wanted quote, to go after them, those boys in blew, unquote. i'm jake tapper. this is "the lead." the national lead. the fbi says they have him on audiotape conspiring to kill cops and that he plan to do it either today or yesterday which is why police were watching him when they shot and killed them. that deadly encounter caught on camera. and the pentagon now admitting a big and potentially deadly blunder. much worse than initially closed. suspect shipments of anthrax fedexed to 17 states the district of columbia and three co