tv CNN Tonight With Don Lemon CNN October 4, 2019 8:00pm-9:00pm PDT
this is a special edition of "cnn tonight." all the president's men. a look at the impeachment inquiry into president trump. we begin with the breaking news "new york times" reporting tonight that a second official is weighing whether to file a whistleblower complaint about the president's dealings with ukraine. that report coming hours after house democrats issue a subpoena to the white house for documents related to the ukraine scandal. separately democrats request to mike pence the vice president
for ukraine documents within the next ten days. we're learning more tonight about the rudy giuliani role in the scandal. was he carrying out a shadow foreign policy on ukraine for president trump? secretary of state stone walling the impeachment failing to meet tonight's house subpoena deadline to produce documents related to ukraine. plus the attorney general mentioned multiple times in the rough transcript of the july call. with ukraine president. why does it seem like he's acting as a personal lawyer for trump and matters related to ukraine and the impeachment inquiry? all that with the president insisting again today his ukraine call was on the up and up. >> it was a perfect call. there was nothing -- we had that call out. we handed the call out to people. they say wow, this is incredible. we're proud of that call. when i speak to a foreign leader i speak in an appropriate manner. >> we'll get into ul of that.
we'll begin with the breaking news "new york times" is reporting that a second official a member of the intelligence community is weighing whether to file a whistleblower complaint. and testify before congress about the president's dealings with ukraine. i want to bring in now katherine, david and timothy. the author of impeachment and american history. you know a little bit about this. let's talk about this second potential whistleblower. it's supposedly an intel official with direct information. this investigation is moving very fast. what do you think the fall out will be? >> they're hoping for more whistleblowers and adding to the credibility. in way this is a positive thing. american democracy working. there are laws set up for the system. the house pressured the president to release them and there's a lot of sort of people wondering what will happen now. this is all the way the system
should work. >> this is a second official to km out and a alarmed by the president's dealings with ukraine. could that add more credibility to what we already know? >> certainly can't hurt. i hope we'll run into a whistle shortage in d.c. we'll run out of the whistles. it's not just those two. we have the irs whistleblower. who came forward and alleged some sort of interference with a mandatory audit the irs conducts every year of the president and vice president. we don't know the interference might be. there is a promising from a historical point precedent about caring about this issue. the old nixon line the people have a right to know whether or not the president is a crook. i'm not a crook. it was about tax returns. there is a precedent for taxes actually bringing down a president or at the least
leading to greater disclosure about wrong doing. so this will probably lead to greater information -- if the second whistleblower comes forward. it will lead to greating information on that. we may see more information come out about trumps tax returns and potential conflicts of interest and other types of financial misdeeds. >> you're shaking your head. >> i'm agreeing with both. >> in agreement. not against. >> no. the whistleblower the whole whistleblower system was a product of water gate. people that witness abuse of power by president nixon at no time know how to get the information out. they leaked it. this is a way for people to get the information out without losing their security clearance. without losing their jobs. these are patriots who want to stay and work for the american people and don't want to lose their job because they're telling the truth about abuse of power. we have seen a tipping point.
people are now ready to say enough is enough. i'm talking about within the government. not among elected republicans. whether we reach that i don't know. within the government it's clear the patriots think we can't have this anymore. i expect more information to come out. and it's great for the country. >> the president is admitted much of this in public. so, what more do you need? what happens if a second whistleblower comes forward? >> it it leads to a more credible process. sf >> how? >> tim will say he thinks it's important to have this go slowly and be a fair process and possibly have some republicans back this up. the more whistleblowers there are the better. the inspector general of the intelligence community he's one of the public servants who stood up and said this is credible. this should be made public. and there could be a tipping
point of more people coming forward. republicans and some democrats. the statement by mitt romney today. this is worrying the president. we're not near a conviction in the senate. but the more this happens and consistent pattern the worse for trump. >> there's the whistleblower complaint there's a transcript of the trump on the zelensky call. a text of the call. there's a text messages. and there's the president on camera saying this. >> china should start an investigation. into the bidens. because what happened in china is just about as bad as what happened with ukraine. >> i know. >> what -- what's he talking about? and adds another dimension another angle. is he just spinning? >> there's a couple of interesting things to pay attention to. he's not only confessing to the crime. that democrats are impeaching
him -- opening an impeachment inquiry for. which is enlisting a foreign power to interfere in the election. this was the actual commission of the crime. on live tv. he is on the one hand claiming that nothing is improper. he didn't do anything at all there was no quid pro quo. at the same time he's actually on live tv asking another foreign adversary in the case to look into a political rival. the second thing to pay attention to is it's not an accident. that he's doing this in front of the camera. with the public watching. he thinks it shields him. sort of flag rant behavior suggests -- i'm not hiding. it's the hiding the cover up. it indicates something would be wrong. something is improper or criminal. the mere fact he's doing it publicly suggests everything is -- that's clearly wrong. that's what he's going for.
>> don't forget the people who are giving advice are all old enough to remember water gate. they're not thinking about the clinton impeachment. maybe democrats are. they're thinking about what brought down nixon. and one of the things was the sneakiness. the american people thought nixon was sneaky. he wasn't telling the truth. he couldn't be believed. i agree the president is basically saying i don't think i did anything wrong, prove that i did anything wrong. that changes the whole debate. it frames it differently. when democrats and republicans say it's wrong and under mines national security. president says i don't think it's wrong i approach the presidency differently. i'm a disrupter for the american people. it's a remarkable way of undermining norms and laws. and the way which we have done foreign policy since we have become a super-power. he's done it himself. this man actually changed the way we frame the questions.
it is unbelievably corrosive for the nation. >> he changes the way and you have conservative media backing him up. is the dam breaking? >> i do. i have talked to former and current aids. the former and some current realize they have told me the president is damaged personally. he has personal flaws. he dun trust his own staff. he will not listen to people inside the organization and the white house. he reaches outside. he believes in the conspiracy theories. he doesn't tell the truth. and there's former aids saying i believe in his agenda. we should con frnt china and help the middle class. he can't deliver on that because he does statements like that. he was confessing to an impeachable offense. and saying i can shoot someone on fifth avenue. i just shot someone. >> i'm shooting right now.
>> thank you all. more and more members of team trump feeling the heat of the impeachment inquiry. a look at all the president's men starting with vice president pence. that's next. children: yeah! announcer: ride the totally realistic traffic jam. mipence. that's next. kpence. that's next. epence. that's next. pence. that's next. cars. children: never bump! announcer: it's a real savings hootenanny with options that fit your budget. that's fun for the whole family. announcer: only at progressive par... maybe an insurance park was a bad idea. yeah. yep.
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this is our special focus this hour. all the president's men. beginning with mick pence. the chairman of the house intel over sight and foreign affairs committee writing to the vice president asking for ukraine documents by october 15. it doesn't look like pence is ready to play ball. his office releasing a statement saying the request doesn't appear to be a serious request. but just another attempt by the do nothing democrats to call attention to the partisan impeachment. like it or not vice president pence is kaulgt up in the impeachment inquiry. in may, the president instructed vice president pence to cancel his plan travel to ukraine to
attend president zelensky inauguration of may 20. president put a freeze on the aid for the ukraine and days later pressured zelensky to investigate the bidens on the phone call. pence was told about that kwaul the very next day. and the transcript of the call was placed in his briefing book. then the president used pence to tell zelensky that aid was still being with held because of corruption. let's discuss now. with matt louis and josh green. author of devil's bargain. good evening to you. josh, you're first. in the lead up to pences meeting with president zelensky. trump and giuliani openly spoke and tweeted about wanting ukraine to investigate biden. his top aid was on the call and pence got a transcript of it. is it possible that pence really didn't know what was really going on? >> i think give b the situation given the fact he was briefed, given the fact we know mike
pence is a diligent politician it is unbelievable to think that pence would go into this meeting unaware of what it was he was supposed to be doing. the idea that he wanted to push this investigation whether it's the bidens. or interference in the 2016 election. it's really hard to believe pence could be in that situation, having aids who are listening in on the phone call, have the transcript in his briefcase. and somehow still be ignorant. it's not possible. >> here's how pence described that meeting with zelensky. that day after it happened. >> specifically number one, did you discuss joe biden during that meeting yesterday with the ukrainian president and number two, can you assure ukraine that the hold up of the money has nothing to do with efforts including by rudy giuliani to try to dig up dirt on the biden family? >> as president trump had me
made clear we have great concerns about issues of corruption. to invest additional taxpayers dollars in ukraine the president wants to be assure the resources are making their way to the kind of investments that will contribute to security and stability in ukraine. >> that all sounds good. but the meaning of corruption to trump and giuliani meant two things. 2016 and the bidens. what are your thoughts? >> i just don't find it plausible donald trump is suddenly this champion of anticorruption. and he really cares that much about it. and it seems like the only time he really does care about corruption is when it involves a political opponent. so, i don't buy it. >> josh, there's this remarkable moment from the 2016 vice president debate. here it is. >> we all need to know.
this is basic stuff. foreign donors and certainly foreign government cannot participate in the american political process. >> what happened to 2016 might be mike pence? >> donald trump got elected and made his vice president. pence along with everybody in the republican party, just about everybody else. has bent themselves to trumps will. pence has become almost a punch line in some quarters for his feelty to trump. and praise trump and do bidding. i was talking to a white house adviser today who said trump is a loyal soldier. even given all that pence has done, trump remembers the one act of disloyalty. after the access hollywood tape came out. pence put out a statement distancing himself from the president. except for that one example. pence walked the trump line and toed it on every step. and on the clip we just showed of pence talking about corruption, that easily could
have been referring to discussions about joe biden or hunter biden corruption. he didn't say he hadn't talked to biden. all indications we have publicly and privately in the reporting that we have seen are pence was aware of what he was doing. knew what trump wanted and delivered that message to the ukraine president. >> i have ten seconds. do you think we'll see pence on the ticket in 2020? >> 80% likely. look the more he's embroiled in this the less likely trump is removed. because republicans the one thing if there's any enticement to getting rid of trump. we'll get mike pence. not if he's involved. we'll get nancy pelosi. >> you gave yourself an out. >> nikki haley waiting in the wing. >> wow. that's what everyone is saying. smart guy. >> we'll be right back. the invite here.
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so testimony from former special envoy to ukraine volker shedding light on just how big yunl giulianis role has been in pressuring ukraine for dirt. doing no favors with wild and contradictory tv interviews in the past two weeks. >> did you ask the ukraine to investigate joe biden? >> no. actually i didn't. >> never asked anything about hunter or jill? >> to get to the bottom of how it was that the appointed
dismissed the case against -- >> you did ask ukraine to look into biden. >> of course i did. >> you said you didn't. >> the state department -- >> shut up, moron. >> you don't know what you're talking about. idiot. >> why are you the president's personal attorney? what is your personal mission? what's your mission? >> to disrupt the world. >> joining me now. josh and bradly moss. good evening. i saw your faces when he said that. why that reaction? >> it's very rare that the person committing the corruption is so proud of it. and says it so blatantly and repeatedly on tv. what you have to remember about the scandal rudy giuliani has been doing this for months before any of us really started
talking about it. before the whistleblower and the text messages with volker. months before that and everybody in ukraine knew it and people in washington. the way we knew it because he was talking about it. giving an interview to the "new york times." meddling in an investigation. tweeting insults at ukrainian oligarchs and threats. the whistleblower complaint comes out and this is crazy stuff. if you look at the record he has been bragging about it. >> i want to put this up. the audience can see and you as well. a look at the time line. giuliani has been on a mission to prove his debunked story. it's up there. about the bidens in 2016. as far as november of 2018. he is giving wild eye tv interviews. contradicting himself about the investigations. getting mixed signals about cooperation. is he helping the democrats case for the impeachment?
>> i think he is the greatest thing the democrats have hoped for when it came to an advocate for peechlimpeachment. he's showing how much conspiracy in this endeavor. have volkers testimony and the leaks. what we saw in the text messages that came out yesterday. pretty much everything the whistleblower set forth in his or her complaint the details of the concern not only about this phone call, between the president and ukraine president. also the activities by mr. giuliani. and his interactions with state department. it's all validated by and large on substance. but the -- >> that always happens. >> rudy giuliani is doing everything for himself. >> all of it will not match up word for word. every time. i think that's people are trying to point that out to punch holes
in it. i have to read this. i wonder if this whole thing, maybe i'm not. most people believe this whole thing is of giuliani's doing. this is from volkers opening statement. it was clear to me despite the positive news and recommendation conveyed by the official delegation about the new president. trump had a deeply rooted negative view on ukraine. rooted in the past. he was receiving other information from other sources including mayor giuliani. that was more negative causing him to retain this negative view. volker is suggesting that giuliani planted all the bogus claims about ukraine and the bidens in president trump's mind. >> yeah. there's a lot of truth. for those of us who cover the president and talk to people they say the same thing. if you give him information that confirms his bad idea he'll believe it. give him information that contradicting it, he won't believe it.
we can't ab solve president trump. it's rudy and trump. he had the deep seeded believe it's ukraine, they're trying to take me down. there's a new government and rudy is like they're trying to take you down. we have to do this. and meanwhile, several other people are trying to get in his head. including senators and volker and i'm sure other officials. who are saying no, there's none of that is true. we can't make policy based on that. that's crazy policy based on false information. the fact is that trump trusts rudy more than any and all the people put together. and that's the heart of the problem. that's a problem that nobody in the government can solve. when you have a problem that you can't solve it's a fact. >> look where the trust got him now. thank you. secretary of state stone walling hitting a new high tonight after he failed to meet a subpoena deadline. what does it mean for the
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tonight. secretary of state failed to meet the deadline for the house subpoena. he and his department are in the thick of this and the pressure is only going to increase. do you agree? >> that's right. pompeo is a crucial figure. he was a ware of it and a key partner in essentially turning trumps private foreign policy into converting that into the policy of the united states. and in that sense i think telling the truth slowly doesn't begin to cover it. pompeo spent a week essentially ob fis kating and not revealing he has been listening in on that key july 25 phone call between trump and president zelensky. we learn in the texts that were released last night that he seems to be of what they were doing to mediate essentially between rudy giuliani and
ukrainian officials to try to get the ukrainians to agree to essentially do trumps bidding and launch an investigation as a condition of this congressional aid. we'll learn a lot more about the role that mike pompeo played and what we'll fipd find is he wa y facilitying the plan. >> mr. turner, despite the initial attempts to dodge questions about this, he was on the call. the text messages mention him. the committee chairman considered him a potential fact witness. will he end up having to testify? >> there's no doubt he's going to have to answer to this. and that probably means testifying. if i were mike pompeo, tomorrow or monday i would go into work. call in my attorneys. i would sit down and talk about what the implications are of
being held in contempt of congress being charged with obstruction of justice. mike pompeo is a great example of the perils of a rise. from being a member of congress to director of cia to the secretary of state. and done that largely unscathed until recently. there's really two key reasons he's done that. it's because of his fierce loyalty to the president. on that call, after he admitted hefts on the call, he quickly transitioned to say the call was all about digging into into corruption. so that's the first reason. the second reason is he has been able to dodge and stay out of the spotlight and dodge bullets. until recently that worked. i think now he's lost control of the narrative and he'll be under scrutiny as this plays out. that will play out in front of congress. >> i have things i want to read.
this next text message has gotten a lot of attention. one particular part of it. as i said on the phone it's crazy to with hold security assistance for help with campaign. million dollar trump donor texts back hours later. i believe you are incorrect about president trump's intentions. he has been crystal clear. no quid pro quo. he's trying to evaluate if ukraine will adopt transparency zelensky promised during hids campaign. i suggest we stop the back and forth by text. discuss them directly. thanks. >> wow. sound like someone wrote that and was very like okay we have to say this. who is lisa? she works at state department as executive secretary in the office of secretary. and who is s.
could that be secretary pompeo? >> that is the secretary. that is how in the unique language theyerer to t refer to secretary of state. that's an interesting passage in the key text exchange. it indicates gordon saying i'm not freelancing. secretary of state is well aware of what the policy is. if you have questions take it up with him. gordon's role has not been explained. he's a big trump donor. and combative ambassador to the european union. ukraine is not in the european union. why is he involved in this scheme with rudy giuliani and playing a leading role. and appears to be dictating to the colleague essentially playing the role of the boss in a way that suggests that perhaps he's the enforcer from trump world. sent to be the political czar
over this. very interesting kp indicative of the idea that pompeo is right in the middle of this. these guys weren't freelancing but he was part of the mission. remember, secretary pompeo has become the last survivor in donald trumps original national security team. not only by being a loyalist. but by saying i'm just here executing. trump is the boss. i do what he seds. regardless of what it is. that's a key part of the story. >> thank you so much. i appreciate it. we're back in a moment.
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barr for this? >> he sees barr and giuliani as his two main that he can trust. it's a terrible idea for trump and worse idea for barr. barr is already kind of up river on this conspiracy theory of chasing down the genesis of the 2016 probe. but he's doing it in a buddy movie way. a enterprise around the globe. it's completely irregular and makes it politicize where as it was supposed to be by the book investigation by the connecticut u.s. attorney. >> barr did not recuse himself from the department of justice decision on trumps call with ukraine president. doj determined that call did not add up to a campaign finance violation. barr is mentioned multiple times on that call. isn't that a conflict of interest? >> for sure. he's neck deep in this. the whistleblower complaint originally went to the department of justice and found
no violation. they didn't do any of the investigation the house intelligence committee did. with the state department and diplomats that found all the texts this week. that look incriminating on the quid pro quo question. they deep six the complaint gets not just the attorney general but a loft people in the justice department potentially in the soup. and i suspect as the committee starts going through the investigative process the same way they pulled on the strings of the state department and the skeletons started falling out of the attic. you'll see the same thing of the justice department. this plot will continue to thicken agency by agency. ta will be part of the building the case. barr is neck deep and should be recused. >> interesting. the "washington post" is reporting that barr has held private meetings with foreign intelligence officials over seas including italy and uk. and asked australia to help barr. what is that about? >> i cannot tell you how strange
that is. it is unprecedented. this is what you have agents for. he has to go around the globe to do it. first of all, it totally demonstrates a kind of wild eyed commitment to the conspiracy theory of it. and gets him again in the thick with the president himself. what's it about, it's about trying to do the most pleasing thing possible to trump which is find some kind of dirt. from a foreign country about the genesis of the probe. problem is, nothing there, nothing has been there. it's a dry hole. they continue to dig. and the personally does the digging. that's bizarre. >> i was going to say i completely agree. i think it's the decoy. focusing on barr looking back at the 2016 election and trying to discredit the intelligence community of which he is part is the decoy. democrats and the people that are concerned about this need to make it clear that the focus of
this issue now is the president while president asking a foreign leader to intervene in our election. and the president doesn't get a pass on doing that. just because he alleges he thinks his opponent might be corrupt. you don't get a pass. when you condition official actions, as the president seemed to do, on a foreign government's interfering in your election, there's been a lot of discussion on this network about it, you're probably invoking five or six major criminal statutes. there's been a lot of discussion on that, but i think citing the statutes which i think the democrats will start to do, i think you'll see the judiciary committee starting to hold hearings on that. that will make a criminal case on what occurred. i think it's important, again, not legally but politically. if you're going to start convincing that middle third of the public and potentially even republicans as it moves over to the senate, as i think it will, i think do you have to make a case as there is here, and
prosecutors like harry could do this all day long, that there is clear criminal violation going on here. >> harry, i have to ask you this before we go, and i have a short time. rudy giuliani referring to barr as trump's government attorney earlier this week, what does that say? >> well, one thing it says is it emphasizes that giuliani is his personal attorney. in fact, he's even said he's not his personal attorney. giuliani is in the funkiest position of all and the most vulnerable. he has very little defenses to giving up his information. but the other thing it says is he's his, as it were, roy cohn, the guy in government that he looks to protect trump rather than to protect the presidency, which of course is his real constitutional lookout. >> gentlemen, thank you. i appreciate it. >> thanks, don. >> we'll be right back. ♪upbeat music
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they left a ton of stuff up here. welp, enjoy your house. nope. no thank you. geico could help you save on homeowners and renters insurance. in the city of chicago, more than 2,000 people have been shot this year. tired of seeing news reports about the ongoing violence in her city, this week's cnn hero had an idea. what if she helped people regain a sense of community one block at a time. so she began in west englewood, one of chicago's most turbulent
neighborhoods. meet robin carroll. >> i started coming out to the community. the lots were all empty. the houses were getting boarded up. people were not coming outside. i stood on the corner and just asked anyone that walked by, are you interested in taking back your community? and everyone said, absolutely yes. we are a really brave space and courageous space. we're going to get there. we will work through all of what is holding you back to becoming the person and the potential that you have to be. >> to see how they've transformed the block from surviving to thriving and to learn more about robin's incredible work, go to cnn heroes.com. one of my personal heroes and a hero to so many others died today. miss diahann carroll.
the first black woman to star in her own television series in the 1960s. she played julia, a widowed nurse with a young son. in the 1970s, the first black woman to win a tony award for best actress for her broadway performance in the musical "no strings indicati strings. also in the 70s, among the first black women to receive an oscar nomination for best actress opposite james earl jones in the movie claudine. on the big screen, she started opposite michael caine, sidney poitier, paul nuewman. she was dominique deveraux on dynasty where she gave joan collins a run for her money. >> let me ask you, is that supposed to be an implied threat of some sort? because if it is, i am just as tough as you, maybe tougher. >> who the hell are you anyway? >> who am i? you'll find out very soon. very soon. >> you said this wasn't going to be a social evening. so whatever it was, i enjoyed
myself thoroughly. >> carroll always fought for better roles and better representation for african-american actors and actresses and paved the way for people in hollywood like oscar winner halle berry and six-time tony winner audra mcdonald, who said today, diahann carroll walked, ran and flew so i could soar behind her. the last time i saw ms. carroll was in 2009 in beverly hills. she gave me a fake slap just like she used to do to alexis on dynasty. then she hugged me and drove away in her vintage rolls-royce. diahann carroll died early today following her battle with breast cancer. she was 84 years old. thanks for watching. our coverage continues. no one's kidding around anymore. house democrats subpoena the white house, and this time stonewalling could become an article of impeachment. john berman in for dersz.
that breaking news and the ukraine story caps a day of escalating developments. it isn't just hearsay or a lone phone call or not even the president on the south lawn with an open, out loud request for china to investigate a political opponent. not anymore. tonight new evidence that points to the president and/or his administration in a systematic, sustained and apparently sweeping fashion using the instruments of government for his own personal and political gain. and now it's firsthand evidence. text messages released to house investigators last night that show an effort to get ukraine to announce investigations that would benefit the president, including investigations connected to joe biden, including an explicit quid pro quo for ukraine. do you this for us, and we will give you something you want. the players did it, some eagerly, others reluctantly as the president was withholding military aid and