tv Cuomo Prime Time CNN May 13, 2020 10:00pm-11:00pm PDT
his partner says while the world lost one of the greats of magic, he lost his best friend. roy horn was 75 years old. our thoughts go out to all the families, those who have been affected by the coronavirus. the news continues. i want to hand it over to chris for "cuomo prime time." important reminder, coop, thank you that, hyacinth, very fragrant, very nice. >> now you're just showing off. >> i do have it right in front of me. >> this is my childhood speech issue coming up, it rears its head every now and then. hyacinth. there, i did it. hyacinth. the hyacinth foundation. >> and i heard you nail it in the break. so, you know, this tv thing, you'll get used to it. >> some day. >> you're just one of the legends of broadcasting. you are the man. and thank you for helping us remember the toll that this virus has taken on us, nobody does it better than you,
pronunciation aside. coop, have a great night. >> thanks, chris. i'm chris cuomo. welcome to "prime time." look, it's unacceptable for the president to be doing what he's doing right now, playing feelings over facts. trump says, the young are in great shape. we have over 100 cases of kids with mystery illnesses potentially related to covid in new york state alone. we don't know why this is happening. we don't know the correlation between them testing positive for covid or not. they thought it was kawasaki, now they say it's something like kawasaki. they don't even know how to treat the cases. the reason the president is gaming you this way is because in politics, feelings beat facts very often. that's why almost every state in this country is reopening somewhat, despite the fact that none of those states meet the
cdc guidelines to do so. that means governors like andrew cuomo of new york, my brother, are going to lose the battle of facts over feelings and they're going to reopen ready or not. what does he think of that proposition? he's here to defend his actions and the reality in his state tonight. we also have more new information on the georgia shooting, okay? last night, remember, we talked to the man who owns this house where ahmaud arbery was seen on the 23rd. but this is not the surveillance video that matters the most. there is another surveillance video. we have it. there is a 911 call that went with that surveillance video that happened almost two weeks earlier. we've been saying from the beginning the reporting strongly suggests that this case is going to come down to what the mcmichaels thought they knew about ahmaud arbery. that is now clearly what this
case is about, and we will show you why. all right. we're going to give you new information. we're going to talk about the state of play. more real information, the better. let's get after it. all right. joining us now is the governor of new york, andrew cuomo, big brother. good to see you. >> how are you, little brother? >> ooh, listen to you, looking a little beat up, gov. i told you this was going to happen. i told you you were going to get fired fighting back the tide of feeling. people want to reopen. they're desperate. it's taking too long. they don't want to wait for the numbers to come down. told you last week. >> i'm not tired, chris. it's just some of us work more than one hour a day. and feelings don't beat facts. they don't beat facts. i understand how in politics people respond to feelings. but feelings don't beat facts. look at what i've been doing
from day one with the briefings that i'm doing. only facts. people are starved for facts and information. they don't want spin. they don't want the hype. they don't want all this political filter and rhetoric. they want facts so they can make their own decisions. and that's what i've been doing here in new york and people across the nation are watching. so they do want facts. and facts win in the end. i understand you can pander to feelings. but the facts win. >> if the facts are winning, then why are 48 states opening right now to different degrees, including your own, even though no one meets the cdc guidelines to do so? >> well, i can't answer for other states. there are states that are opening that don't meet cdc guidelines. >> all of them. all. >> okay. how that's happening, that's a political question. it's been left up to the governors. there's a very strong political sentiment to open up. and people are frustrated.
there's no doubt about that. and you have to open, because you can't survive this economically for a prolonged period of time. but that doesn't mean you deviate from the facts. what we're doing in new york is, we have the most fact-driven, data-driven reopening plan in the country, period. seven criteria, all based on the facts. no region opens unless they meet the factual thresholds. that's what's going to govern us. it's what's governed us from day one and will through this pandemic. >> how do they meet the factual threshold when you are strapped for cash and unable to test in any real comprehensive way anywhere in the state? >> yeah, what you said is just not a fact. if it were a fact, you would be right. >> where is it wrong? >> i'm going to explain, if you let me finish. we have ten regions in this state, right? and it's very different, of course, this state.
we have the worst cases in new york city, the worst in united states, worst than some countries. we have regions upstate that are more like rural america where the numbers are dramatically different. so we do it region by region. and every region must hit numerical thresholds. the cdc put out preliminary guidance, they're supposed to be doing followup detailed guidance, we're still waiting for that. but the preliminary guidance of the cdc and that's what dr. fauci goes back to, decline of cases for 14 days, surge capacity in hospitals, surge capacity in icu units, enough ppe equipment, tracing and testing. that operation has to be in place. >> can you test enough to know for a fact whether or not cases are rising or falling? >> yeah, we will not open a region without the adequate testing in place. >> do you have it in place already? >> the coronavirus task force --
well, no region can open before this friday, may 15. and any region that wants to open on may 15 is going to have to hit all seven of those criteria, including the testing capacity and tracing capacity. >> do you think any will hit the all criteria? >> yes. yes. >> they will be able to test to a level of sufficiency that the people in that region will know whether or not doing certain things is safe? you'll be able to test people frequently enough? >> yes. the white house coronavirus task force put out guidelines on what they thought adequate testing was. it's about 30 per 1,000 residents. that number of tests will be performed by that region for that region to open. there's then a threshold of how many tracers have to be in place. here we have former mayor mike bloomberg who has been fantastic, working with johns hopkins, putting together the most sophisticated tracing operation in the country.
so that will be for each region, in place. otherwise they can't open. >> yes, sir. okay, good. thank you for that, thank you for the recognizing of what's happening in different regions, because that's what people are going to watch. >> my pleasure. >> take it easy. and by the way, what you do in your pressers are not all facts. you said today some people are never happy, some people like that in your own family. who in your own family is never happy? >> i don't remember. >> next question next question. >> i bet you don't, i'll refresh your recollection during the break. nancy pelosi is putting forward a new bill in which there is plenty of money for state governments, not just for testing and tracing but money to fill shortfalls. are you satisfied with the massive amount of money in that bill? >> i think the house put forth a
very smart bill and it's in the right direction. look at what we've done thus far, stimulate the economy, compensate for coronavirus. we gave a lot of money to businesses and rich people. who did we not fund? police, firefighters, schoolteachers, health care workers. all the heroes of this situation. you turn the television, you see all these commercials, hail the hero. washington needs to understand it, that's who gets funded by state and local governments. you know how much state and local governments have gotten? >> $3 trillion they're proposing. is that enough? >> $500 billion, but you round up a little bit. >> it says $3 trillion for the states. >> that's the total package. it's $500 billion to the states. but you're close enough. it's like horseshoes. >> hold on a second.
>> funding the state governments and local governments, i have a $61 billion hole, okay? if i don't get funding from washington, i have to reduce my budget and who i fund. who do i fund? i fund police, fire, teachers, local governments, et cetera. why would you starve those areas? plus this whole plan is on the governors to reopen, right? the governors will decide, the governors will reopen state by state. how do you not provide funding for the governors to do the reopening that the nation is arguing for? >> you want $61 billion. the pushback is the job of the federal government is not to make up your budget shortfall for you, if you have to make hard cuts, make them, everybody is going to have to make hard cuts, this is a hard time. why should they give you everything you need so you don't suffer any impact when they're not going to be able to do that for everybody?
>> because me is not me, right? why didn't they say that to the millionaires? why didn't they say that to the big corporations? why didn't they say that to the other business corporations that they funded all around the country? so we'll bail them out, but police, fire, hospitals, and schools, we're going to close them down. come on, makes no sense. >> let's take a break. two big issues on the other side of the break. what about schools, k-12, when do you make that decision? and what's going on with kids? the president says kids are doing great, they don't have any risk. what's all these cases in new york? i know the governor is concerned. we'll find out why right after this. with unlimited from metro and the new iphone se... ...gabriel rules.
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we're back with the governor of new york, andrew cuomo, my brother, of course. we were having a discussion about budget priorities and what the federal government should do for you right now. that's an ongoing discussion, because this is going to take time. you're going to have problems for a while and you're going to have to make hard choices. let me shift to something that is urgent right now. the president says this situation is different because it doesn't really affect kids. now, we did believe that, of course, in our own family, right, mario got it, so it's not that kids are immune even though we hoped they were. but you now have over a hundred cases of something that we don't even really know what it is. pediatric multisymptom inflammatory syndrome. like kawasaki disease but not kawasaki disease. may be related to covid-19 because 40% tested positive for antibodies. 60% of the sick tested positive for the virus. this is another layer to the
mystery. how concerned are the health officials in your state? >> very much. very much. and look, this is important. first, the point is, this virus has been ahead of us all along. it's beaten us at every turn, chris. when it first started, it was coming from china. but it turns out it didn't come from china, it came from europe. and nobody even knew. and we sat here, letting europeans come, january, february, march, 2 million europeans came and they brought the virus with them because it had moved from china to europe and we had no idea. then if you had the virus and you had the antibodies, and you recovered, you were supposed to be immune. now they're not so sure you're immune. now the good news is kids wouldn't get it and it wouldn't bother kids. now we're not so sure. what we're finding in new york, but you watch, it's going to be true all across this country and
across this world, it doesn't present as a covid case. it doesn't present as a respiratory illness which is what covid normally is. it's an inflammation of the blood vessels. and then an inflammation of the heart. and we're looking at 103 cases actually in the state of new york right now. and you're right, they either have the antibodies or they're positive for covid. and it's an inflammation of the blood vessels and of the heart. and it's very serious. many of them go into the icu. our state department of health found it first, frankly, and is talking to the other states and now 13 other states are saying, well, we have cases like this. five countries on the globe are saying we have cases like this. and it's really tricky because these are kids who may have been exposed to the virus weeks ago and have this almost delayed reaction to it. but it is frightening, because
the one good news, right, was that children wouldn't be affected by covid. and now we see these cases from less than 1-year-old to 21 years old. we lost a 5-year-old boy, a 17-year-old boy, an 18-year-old girl died from this. so it's a very serious situation. anyone who says we understand this virus, we just don't. we haven't from day one. we didn't know how it traveled. we don't know who it infects. we don't know what the ramifications to the infection are. and now we're really troubled if you have children who might be really affected by this virus. >> what does this mean for schools in the fall? we saw what california did with the state universities. you have to figure out what to do with the state universities, the private universities, and play off that. but k-12, what you say happens in the state applies to private and public schools, parochial
schools as well. how close are you to making a decision? >> well, we've said in this state they'll be closed through the academic year. we haven't made a decision on summer schools yet for k-12. on the decisions about college in september, we're just not there yet. as i said, i don't believe that anyone really understands where we are with this virus, i don't know where we are with therapeutics or treatments. i like to make decisions, chris, when i have the facts, when i have the information. i understand schools have to plan for the fall semester, and i'll be respectful of their planning period. and we've told them, come up with a plan, because how do you open a school in september? you can't have gatherings. you can't have large numbers of children in a classroom. >> but you can't get everybody back to work if they're not in school k-12 because people won't be able to get back to the
workforce, they'll have nobody to take care of their kids and if we don't get back to work at some point, people are desperate, they are literally starving, as you know, in your state. >> yeah, they're desperate. let's find out what is happening with this covid virus and kids, and then let's see what the answer is. and let's see if somebody tells you, well, mario and cha cha may wind up getting the virus and may have this inflammatory heart disease, and then see how anxious parents are to send their children back to school. so all i'm saying is, this changes. and i can't make a decision about september now, because that's a lifetime away. >> fair point about the time. >> thank you for that. i'm glad you agree with me. thank you very much. >> let's end on this, that the facts versus feeling thing is real. >> i'm glad you think it's funny. >> i want to show you a clip of the president take talking about
anthony fauci. it shows how feelings overwhelm facts literally by intentional assault. >> reporter: dr. fauci was cautious about reopening the economy too soon. do you share his concern? >> he wants to play all sides of the equation. >> reporter: when you say dr. fauci is playing both sides, are you suggesting the advice he's giving you is -- >> i was surprised by his answer, actually, because, you know, it's just -- to me it's not an acceptable answer, especially when it comes to schools. >> now, to be fair to fauci, by the way, he was never saying you can't open schools, you can't open this, you can't open that. i think the media was actually being a little unfair to him in context. but the president is playing to people's feelings. we've got to reopen, you've got
to be back in school or you're not really open, it's been too long, and that's why states are reopening, gov, because it's not about the facts that they're reopening them. you're going to have to follow that same path if the people demand it, yes or no? >> no. no. look, you are in a position of leadership, because you're supposed to lead. if you're saying i am a mere barometer, i am a windmill for emotion and i will point in whatever direction the emotion points, then you haven't noticed anything that i've done in public service as governor or as attorney general. and i don't agree that feelings win. dr. fauci, who is all fact-based, science-based, he has more credibility on this issue according to polls than anyone in the nation. i have credibility on this issue according to polls nationwide. and i'm all about facts. and when i do offer a political -- an opinion, i say it's an opinion, and i pivot and say, here's my opinion, i have problems with family members. but that was a personal opinion. >> no, that's a fact.
you do have problems with people in your family. that is a fact. they certainly have problems with you, i can tell you that. >> only you. only you. >> no, i like you the best. that is the harshest commentary that someone can say about your standing in the family. i'm as good as you got, all right? >> i know, that's a problem. >> governor andrew cuomo, you're dealing with very important things. i know that you don't take yourself seriously but you take the job very seriously. that's what the situation demands. i love you. thank you for coming on the show. >> love you, brother. >> i love you, big brother. the covid tests. listen. i don't like raining on our optimism, okay? believe me, i'm as anxious as any of you to see more sunshine here. and the rapid covid tests, i was a big fan of the possibility in looking at the early science on them. the president loves them. that's what they're using on all the people who are proximate to him. but now we have evidence that
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dr. sanjay gupta, what do you make of the basis for the analysis and the finding? >> this study came out of nyu. they looked at 30, 35 samples, somewhere in there, and the failure rate was obviously very concerning. abbott has commented on this, saying they're looking into it. maybe the tests weren't being performed correctly. but this is concerning, chris. we've been doing some reporting on abbott for some time. as you mentioned before the commercial break, this is obviously a significant sort of test, because it could give results really quickly. if you're waiting days for your test results and you end up having the virus, you don't know it, you could be out there spreading it, that's been the concern, so people need results quickly. this could give one in 15 minutes. even before this study, which still needs to be peer-reviewed, and abbott needs to look into this more, there were studies
suggesting it could have a false negative rate of 15 to 25%. and again, i think people know what that means. but chris, if 100 people have the infection, they all get the test, if you have a false negative rate of 15%, that means 15 of those people will be told you don't have the virus, they actually do. if you're in a hospital and get put into covid-negative part of the hospital, now you spread it. that creates a cluster in a hospital. the same thing could happen in a nursing home. or we're talking about states opening up, they could go out and start spreading it. this is a big concern especially given that people can spread this without symptoms. they have no other barometer by which to measure other than the result of this test. if it's a wrong, that's a problem. >> what do you make the reciprocal argument, yeah, but sanjay, at least you have 85% accuracy, it is better than nothing, which is where we're starting from. >> it's better than nothing, but there are better tests out
there. >> as fast? >> no, not as fast. that's the issue. so, you know, you have tests that can get you to 98%. it becomes a question of what are you willing to sacrifice? are you willing to have 15, 25, nearly half the people thinking they're negative when in fact they're carrying the virus, or would you like to have a faster result? ideally you would like both. it seems like after all these months we're not in that position in this country. we don't have a test that is widely available, that is fast, and that is reliably accurate in terms of not getting false negative results. i want to say again, abbott is looking into this, perhaps the tests were not performed well at nyu. they have various things they want to look into. because i, like you, would love for this test to work because of the speed of the test. but a false negative rate like that is not going to be acceptable, in hospitals, in nursing homes, in the general community. >> let me ask you about these hundred plus cases in new york and supposedly other states where they say they're having kids with this multiple inflammatory symptom syndrome,
it looks like kawasaki disease which i never heard of until this. basically swelling around the heart of these kids. is this something still discrete at this point or is this something we have to look at about covid and its reach that is still unknown? >> it does appear to be fairly rare, chris. so thankfully, a hundred, potentially, patients, months into this pandemic, is when we're starting to see these kids. were we missing these earlier or, as your brother was talking about, is this truly a post-inflammatory situation? so after someone has had the infection, now a post-inflammatory state? i talked to sources when i heard about this, and i heard about this a couple of weeks ago out of the uk, because there was an alert sent out, chris, to all the hospitals in the uk, came out two weeks ago, saying, hospitals, be on the lookout for this, we're hearing about this. it got my antenna up.
i called my sources in asia and i said what about you, you guys had earliest cases, even with kids, they weren't really seeing it over there. they weren't seeing an increased number of children with this inflammatory-like children in asia. why is it something that's affecting predominantly europe and the united states? we don't know. there could be a genetic predisposition here. it could be the virus is a little bit different. we know there's been a slight mutation to the virus, nothing that significant, but perhaps significant enough to cause these sorts of problems. but thankfully, chris, as we've sort of been talking to hospital systems across the country, it does still seem rare. it can be catastrophic when it happens, i interviewed a 12-year-old girl and her father today, she had heart failure, cardiac arrest, was resuscitated and she's fine. but it can be a very significant illness. but this is a message obviously for doctors and nurses but also parents who say, okay, my kid has recovered, let me still be diligent about them.
just like we've been saying with adults, chris, like yourself. recovery is still something we didn't even think about, we didn't have the luxury of thinking about two, three months into this. now we've got to start getting serious about what does recovery really mean after someone has gone through this infection, with adults and now with kids. >> if it starts affecting kids, it's an entire game changer in terms of the nonchalance and the feeling index that my brother completely rejects about our political calculus. about how we reopen. if we're worried about our kids, every calculation will change. sanjay, thank you very much for taking us through this, i appreciate it. >> you got it, buddy, no problem. new details in the shooting death of ahmaud arbery. since our interview last night with the owner of the home that he was seen entering, things have changed even about that man's story. there were things he didn't tell us that we're now finding out from different reporting sources and we went back to his lawyer, who is with us as well, to her credit. she's back to explain what we didn't know 24 hours ago, and
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all right, this is going to take a little bit of focus and attention but it matters if you care about the shooting case in georgia. our investigation of this case has always pointed to february 23, the day that arbery was killed, not being a one-off. the theory is that the accused in this case, the mcmichaels, seemed to have some sense that they knew the deceased, that they knew about him, that they were looking for him, okay? now, new information has come to light that makes this much more likely. and here it is. surveillance video that was recorded nearly two weeks before the shooting. this is february 11. you see what it shows.
a man at the same unfinished property at night. remember, on the 23rd, it's during the day. tough to make out if there are similarities between the men, that's for the police and for you to judge for yourselves. this is the same property owned by larry english who was on the show last night. english didn't tell us, even though we asked him, and we'll take that up with his lawyer, but we now know that when he learned of this video, he texted the video to his neighbor, diego perez, on the 11th. perez then offers to check things out, since english lives some 90 miles away, being a good neighbor. at the same time, travis mcmichael drives up and sees this trespasser near the house, calls 911. we now have a portion of that newly-released call. >> i was leaving the neighborhood, and i just caught
a guy running into a house being built, two houses down from me. when i turned around, he took off running into the house. >> okay. what did he look like? >> uh, it was a black male. red shirt, white shorts. >> are you okay? >> yeah. yeah. it just startled me. when i turned around, when i turned around and saw him and backed up, he reached into his pocket and ran into the house. so i don't know if he's armed or not but he looked like he was acting like he was. so, you know, be mindful of that. we've been having a lot of burglaries and break-ins. i had a pistol stolen january 1, actually. i've never seen this guy before in the neighborhood. >> now. put that all together, okay? mcmichael says, we've had a lot of break-ins, burglaries. there are no reports of those, okay?
but the mcmichaels did report that they say their gun was stolen from a vehicle. that's in his mind. he says it in the 911 call, "we had a gun stolen." who does he think stole that gun? he says he put his hand in his waistband, maybe he had a gun. this is the 11th. he's out of breath. we have no indication that he pursued this person. i don't know why he's out of breath, he's supposed to be in his truck. so put that to the side, we don't think there was any kind of pursuit here or anything. but the 11th, is when that happened, not the 23rd. did the mcmichaels believe on the 23rd that the man they saw jogging down the street was the man they saw the night of the 11th? now, i say "they." diego perez, the neighbor, the man that mr. english called and told or texted the information about what happened on the 11th at his house, he did an interview with "the atlanta journal constitution." he gave a similar rundown of events, saying the man reached for his waistband. could have been going for a
phone. they don't know what he was going for. but travis mcmichael got spooked, went down the road. the ajc says perez told them when travis mcmichael returned he was with his father gregory mcmichael and he was armed, okay? now, is this tape, the 11th, the one that the mcmichaels referred to the day they killed arbery? remember, what we thought was weird for them to say on the 23rd, because how did they know where arbery had been, that he had been in that house under construction? a police officer wrote that day, gregory mcmichael stated there had been several break-ins in the neighborhood. again, we don't see police records of break-ins but this is what is in his mind. further, the victim was caught on surveillance video. they couldn't have known about the surveillance video on the 23rd, it had just happened, as far as we know. and mr. english says he didn't know anything about it.
are they talking about the 11th? after the shooting, gregory mcmichael told police they had seen the man that travis shot the other night. the 11th? and suspected he was armed. like they said on the 11th? so they grabbed their guns before chasing down arbery. to be clear, we don't know who is on that february 11th video, if that's arbery. but maybe, apparently, they thought he was. remember this, even if everything i just said is true, and that's what their state of mind was, does it change the analysis of the case? i say, no, not legally. these are not cops. these are private citizens and their rights under the citizen arrest law which we'll talk about in the next segment, very narrow, what they're allowed to do. let's get some more context from larry english's attorney beth gray. first of all, beth, thank you for coming back, i appreciate
it. >> thank you for having me. >> now, help me understand the events of february 11th and why they didn't come up last night. >> just to be clear, larry english's story has never changed. he has always said that prior to february 23rd, there were four or five occasions when someone or more than one person came on to his property and at one point it was a couple. that had been happening since october 19. so he's always said there were other occasions. >> right, but when i asked, like, you know, have things happened, did you ever have any concerns before, did you let anybody know, he said no, you know, i didn't make any report about the 23rd, and no, i don't know about what happened. why didn't he just say to me, yeah, on the 11th another guy broke in and i sent it to my neighbor mr. perez and they actually had a situation where they confronted a guy they said was a young black man that night? seems pretty relevant. >> well, what he has said is that he had nothing stolen. he didn't make a police report.
he contacted the authorities after each time, as best i can tell, beginning with october 19. he placed a nonemergency call on october 19 or thereabouts. and at that point, the officer gave my client his telephone number, his cell number, and every time one of these videos happened, my client sent the video to the officer. so he always kept them informed. what he did not do was press charges because he could not identify a crime. >> understood. >> nothing had been stolen or taken. he said he wasn't aware of any burglaries. and what he has repeatedly says, he has never used the word "burglary" because that involves a felony and he can't say that that happened. as he has said repeatedly, nothing was taken, nothing was damaged, all he had was possibly a misdemeanor trespass. that's what he's taken up every time with the authorities. >> i agree with everything that you just said, i have accused mr. english of nothing, he has no duty to tell anybody what happens on his property, he
doesn't have to tell the police or anybody else, it's his business. what i'm saying is, it seems if you're trying to help understand a situation, the fact that on february 11 there was another guy in your house and travis mcmichael showed up and was -- you know, made contact with that guy and the neighbor also made contact with that guy, and obviously the mcmichaels were referring to this surveillance video on the 23rd when they saw ahmaud arbery, mr. english is aware of this, why didn't he decide to offer it up last night? is he nervous? >> he's aware of there having been multiple people who have come on his property and there were videos. he's not aware of what the mcmichaels might have known or thought. he didn't have any contact with them about this. like i said, he's only met travis mcmichael once last summer, and never had another conversation with him. so he doesn't know what travis
mcmichael was thinking. all we knew was that the february 23 video was being released and we had to make sure that video was understood. and so we talked about that video because that's what everybody else was focused on. but we did repeatedly say there were prior videos. and he said that. he made very clear that none of those other videos depicted a crime. >> i'm not saying they depict a crime. and again, i will continue to thank you for taking this opportunity. but you know what i'm saying here. i'm saying that the information of what happened on the 11th, forget about mr. english, just you, using common sense, let alone your legal education, when the mcmichaels clearly think that the person they saw on the 11th was the person they saw on the 23rd, don't you think that's interesting information if you're trying to be helpful to what people understand? i mean, you didn't mention it either. >> sure. if my client had known that that is what the mcmichaels thought,
we have said that. he didn't know that. he didn't know what the mcmichaels thought. he didn't know, he had given all of this information to the police, but he has never been in a position to know what the m but he had a text where he referred to travis. >> he did not. he did not. >> no. diego was referring to travis, with mr. english. so he knew that travis was in the loop. >> well, diego sent a text referring to travis but, at that point, larry english didn't know who travis was. so that didn't mean anything to him. that's just diego talking about some person in the neighborhood. i mean, keep in mind, you and i are coming into this story in the end, we know it ends in a killing that may be murder. so we look back, and we see what's important. we see what's significant. but when he was living through that and, by the way, he spent most of the time from december 29th through the end of april, he's a very ill man.
he was in and out of the mayo clinic. he had heart surgery. you know, his wife wlife was no building toward this moment, in his mind. >> again, i'm not trying to put anything on mr. english. i'm not putting anything on him. >> i understand. i'm just saying i had not seen that text. when i saw it, which was last night. what happened was we were on the phone with the ajc trying to figure out prior incidents and that's when he found the text. it's travis. and i don't think he had not gone back to look at the text before that, and he didn't remember travis because it didn't mean anything to him. >> i totally get it. i am i'm just saying as a point of curiosity, i was grateful for you to come back to give us access to the surveillance video. >> i'll come every night. >> no, i don't want to do that to you. but thank you very much for giving us more information to help make sense of this. certainly, is very helpful in putting us inside the mind of the abused. beth, thank you, and the best of
the health for your client. so what does this mean from a legal analysis standpoint? let's bring in laura coates, former federal prosecutor, and talk about this right after the break. ♪ ambient sound fades in and plays throughout. ♪ ♪ ambient sound fades in and plays throughout. ♪ ♪ ambient sound begins to rise. ♪ ♪ ambient crescendos and then goes silent for the tagline. ♪
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let's bring in laura coates. so, laura, the mcmichaels, at least travis, sees this man on february 11th. after a there is another similar trespass situation, and the owner of the house sends the text of the video to the neighbor, and the neighbor checks it out. sees this same person. when ahmaud arbery runs past their house on the 23rd, they think that's the guy from the 11th. and they take off after him. that seems to be the best
reckoning of the circumstantial evidence we have, in this case, about where their heads were. what does it mean to the legal analysis? >> well, frankly, it comes down to, fundamentally, that what you have a described does not change the inquiry the prosecutor will make, which is, whether they were justified in using lethal force against this person, as citizens, not as members of law enforcement, based on their assumption that they recognized someone from days prior. why this is so important is because as you look at all the 911 calls, you look at the discussions of larry english with his counsel and everything, it comes down to the word property. they're talking about somebody trespassing in somebody's property. now, you can, in fact, defend your own home. you could defend your own dwell being. but, neither of the mcmichaels actually had ownership rights over this dwelling. now, why is that important, chris? it's because they are using lethal force, to defend property that they do not own. the law is clear in georgia. that says you could use force.
you could use force, to defend property, as long as you are lawfully in possession of it. it belongs to one of our family members. or that you have some legal duty to, actually, protect the property. none of that is true. it seems as though, based on the way we know the facts, they have taken it upon themselves to try to defend property. even the owner did not report on the 911 emergency call. that's extraordinarily important here because it does not change the underlying inquiry of a prosecute as to whether they were justified to use lethal force or even to stop ahmaud arbery in the first place. >> so, there are two things to unpack here. one, is why these new facts don't mean what so many, you know, social media/lawyer types, you know, non-lawyers, think it means. and the second is the citizens arrest analysis. so, first, that. people hear this and they say i knew that arbery was up to no good. first of all, we don't even know
who the guy was on the 11th. we don't even know if it was the same person as the 23rd. but we do know this. that thinking is exactly why the mcmichaels are in trouble in this prosecution, because they thought it was the same guy, and they thought it empowered them to go after him. when, under the private -- the -- the private citizen, the citizens arrest law, it doesn't do that, at all, laura. all this does is tell a prosecutor what your motive was, which is usually hard for them to show at trial. >> it's extraordinarily important to notice that, in the citizens arrest statute, chris, and you're right to even look at it because what it actually says -- >> we actually have it if you want to put it up while we're talking. >> the only way that people can be empowered by that statute is they actually see the crime being committed or have immediate knowledge of it. what you have strung together is a series of assumptions, not prudence, not careful consideration of the facts of the case. >> shoot.
let me try and get laura back. do you see what's on your screen? put it back there for a second. we'll try and get laura back. there's no substitute for her. just look at this. if the offense is committed in his presence, okay, or within his immediate knowledge, let's say you say, well, they knew about this. no, they didn't know about anything on the 23rd. they think they knew something about the 11th, but they don't know that that was arbery. and, even if it were arbery, and we don't know that it was, it wasn't a felony to trespass. they don't get the protection of this. i'm sorry we lost laura. she is always of value but it's now time for d lemon anyway. laura, i'm sorry about what happened with you. i'll get you back tomorrow night. d lemon's time is now. >> thank you, sir. i appreciate it. we're going to continue to follow this. actually, we have a message from the mother, tonight, that your -- you guys are going to want to hear about. someone left a mysterious note on a makeshift memorial for arbery. saying, i wish i could've stopped this. well, the mother has a message, tonight, that she