tv Starting Point CNN November 13, 2012 7:00am-9:00am EST
how deep does this go? cnn has this story covered with correspondents at the pentagon this morning, at the white house this morning, and in beirut, a packed two hours ahead for you. we'll be talking with utah congressman jason chaffetz. maryland congressman elijah cummings. jim mcgreevey will be our guest, georgia congresswoman tom price and florida congresswoman debbie wasserman schultz joins us. it's tuesday, november 13th, "starting point" begins right now. morning, welcome, everybody. our "starting point" this morning. breaking news. another top military general has now been linked to the sex scandal that forced out cia director david petraeus. forced him to resign. general john allen, the commander of u.s. and nato forces in afghanistan is now under investigation for alleged inappropriate communications with jill kelley. now investigators are said to be
looking into the 20,000 to 30,000 pages of e-mails and other documents that he sent to her. kelley, of course, is the florida woman whose original complaint to the fbi about threatening e-mails inadvertently exposed the affair between general petraeus and paula broadwell. meantime a team of fbi agents searched broadwell's home in charlotte, north carolina, overnight, and spent nearly five hours there wrapping up just after 1:00 in the morning. "wall street journal" is reporting that the fbi agent who launched the petraeus investigation himself is under investigation. in part because he sent shirtless pictures of himself to jill kelley. jill kelley, the woman who kicked off all of this investigation, by complaining about the e-mails that she was getting from the petraeus mistress. so the agent, who knew kelley, allegedly sent those pictures before any investigation began, but as you can see, the story is getting much more complicated. we've got team coverage of the breaking news this morning. chris lawrence is at the pentagon. chris, i don't even know where to begin because there's so much to talk about. let's start with general allen.
what's the implications of this -- of him being brought in to petraeus scandal and what has he said about it? >> so far, from what we've heard from defense officials, soledad, john allen has denied any wrongdoing in this matter. what is the matter at hand is on sunday the fbi notified the pentagon that they had 20,000 to 30,000 pages of e-mails, which contained inappropriate contact between general john allen, and jill kelley. yesterday, secretary panetta asked that john kelley -- or john allen's nomination to be the head of nato be pulled back and put on hold while the inspector general starts to dig through all of these pages to find out exactly what happened. here's how it all connects. general john allen was stationed in tampa when he was at u.s. central command. so was general david petraeus. jill kelley worked as sort of a social liaison with a lot of the commanders there.
in fact, she's been -- won awards for her work with some of the military families, and the military down there. now, paula broadwell started e-mailing jill kelley. and from what we know, some of those e-mails basically took the tone of, you know, stay away from david petraeus, sort of, i know sort of your relationship with some of these other generals, it's inappropriate. at the time it didn't make sense. because what we've been told is, david petraeus and jill kelley are family friends. that david petraeus and his wife holly have spent time with jill kelley and her husband. that there was no romantic involvement between petraeus and kelley. but apparently, broadwell may have thought so. and so, started this whole e-mail chain because of what she may have believed, which now has spiraled to include not only petraeus, but general john allen. i know that's a lot. but it is hard to sort of piece all of this together. but that's what we believe right now, soledad. >> well, that is very bizarre.
all right, thank you for updating us. we certainly appreciate it. chris lawrence for us at the pentagon this morning. let's get to retired general james "spider" marks. we were talking to him yesterday, of course. cnn military analyst, knows both general petraeus and paula broadwell well. thank you for talking with us. so, let's go to ms. kelley now, whose name has now been added to this mix. 20,000 to 30,000 e-mail documents is what we're hearing about general allen says that he's done nothing wrong acco according to what chris lawrence just told us from the pentagon. how unusual would this be? i mean, she is the honorary social ambassador, which basically means a party planner. fill me in on what this means and the implications. >> soledad, i need to tell you, this is incredibly, as you said, it's incredibly confusing. i don't know where to start. first, 20,000 to 30,000 e-mails, of course, that's what's been suggested. investigators will figure all that out. that's a heck of a lot of time
behind the computer sending notes to a party planner. from a senior officer who has, obviously, a bunch of things on his plate. and he's burning a lot of daylight spending time with a party planner over e-mail. so that's just bizarre, in my mind. the fact to the point of what has been described as an honorary ambassador to the community, this liaison between tampa and the command a role like that is certainly not unusual in my experience, there's always a very tight bond with the local community, in terms of what it, the community, can do to facilitate the service members on post, make their lives a little easier, thank them for their service. and so this interaction is really a mosaic. and frankly it's really pretty neat. and you're very thankful for all of that. but this -- the implications of jill kelley, her husband,
petraeus, paula broadwell, i mean this is just a mess in my mind. and i'm not suggesting that there's anything nefarious going on here. it's just we're spending a heck of a lot of time while our nation's still at war concerned about bad behavior, possible bad behavior -- >> can i ask you a question, sir -- >> it's crazy. >> let me ask you a question. one of the things as we now know a little bit more about how paula broadwell and general petraeus were communicating, i, i, i find it stunning that someone who would be the head of the cia is basically chatting with his girlfriend over jmail. i guess that, that, actually of all this, i find that the most remarkable thing. >> assuming, and i'm going to try to transpose, let me get into david petraeus' shoes for a second and say i've been doing this for four decades, i'm now out of the army, my goodness, i feel isolated in this new civilian world i'm a part of, maybe the rules don't apply to me anymore. i'm just guessing on my part.
but, literally that's what it demonstrates. that's what it demonstrates. >> yeah, well, i agree. it's so interesting, and, and, sort of, bizarre, spider marks joining us this morning. thank you for calling in to the show. we appreciate your time, thanks. let's turn to washington now, where of course there was a confirmation hearing fortunate general allen's spending nomination to command the u.s. european command and nato forces in europe. it's all going to be delayed because of this scandal. white house of course, brianna keilar has been following developments on that front. good morning. >> good morning to you, soledad. i'll tell you, we just got reaction in from the white house. the first since this new development involving general allen. this reiterating what we heard overnight in a written statement from defense secretary leon panetta. this is from the spokesman for the nsc, the national security council says at the request of the secretary of defense the president has put on hold his nomination of general allen as supreme allied commander europe. that's the top u.s. commander in europe, the head of nato forces
in europe. this is spending the investigation of general allen's conduct by the department of defense inspector general. says the president remains focused on fully supporting our extraordinary troops and coalition partners in afghanistan, who general allen continues to lead as he has so ably done for over a year. meanwhile the president has nominated general dunford to be the next commander of isaf. so the head of u.s. and nato troops in afghanistan, and reiterates his belief that the senate should act swiftly to confirm general dunford. now, general allen, soledad, i'll tell you, is in washington, because he was supposed to be going through this confirmation hearing process on the hill on thursday. that is what has been put on hold here. general joseph dunford had already been lined up to replace him in afghanistan, and this is president obama, basically saying, please move forward with that, and his confirmation hearing on thursday is expected to move forward as planned. a critical time as president obama tries to figure out how to
bring home those 68,000 remaining troops in afghanistan by the end of 2014 as scheduled. soledad? >> brianna keilar for us. thank you. so "the washington post" reporter who co-wrote paula broadwell's book about general petraeus says he was absolutely dumbfounded by the affair. he wrote an op-ed that was posted last night and he says this in part, on rare occasions, her good looks and close access would prompt a colleague to raise an eyebrow about their relationship. but i never took it seriously. he also said this, -- >> i never fully understood it but i always sort of rationalized it in my own mind as something that he felt, you know, he could control, and that because it was so public, that both of them felt there was never any danger of it becoming anything other than, you know, journalist/subject, professional relationship. >> in a few minutes we're going to be talking with congressman
jason chaffetz, a member of the house oversight committee. first want to get to an update on some of the other stories that are not scandal this morning. >> i've got to say, to coin a term they use a lot, this thing is a holt mess. >> seems like it's only going to get more messy if you listen to paula broadwell's father, who did an interview with the daily news. he said this is essentially just the tip of the iceberg. we'll see where it goes. >> there is other news today. not as much of a hot mess as this. "the washington post" is reporting that president obama is preparing to make a major cabinet shuffle. it says he's considering democratic senator john kerry to serve as his next defense secretary. and that susan rice, the u.s. ambassador to the united nations, would be his top pick to take over as secretary of state for outgoing hillary clinton. >> that means who would come in to replace him in the senate? >> that's the big problem right there. there would be a special election. a lot of people think that republican senator scott brown, outgoing republican senator would be the favorite. that's actually working against senator kerry's nomination for anything because you don't think that the democrats don't want to lose a seat potentially. >> that's what i was saying.
>> the man who made sure our computers stay virus-free wanted for questioning in connection with a murder. this thing is a mess, too. john mcafee, of the popular anti-virus software, is in hiding after his neighbor was found shot to death in belize. police say they want to talk to mcafee but right now he is nowhere to be found. republican congressman paul ryan says losing last week's election was quote, a foreign experience. but, in his first interview since his failed vp bid he said he's not dwelling on it. >> i really have no regrets at all. it was an honor to be on this ticket. it's an honor that comes to very few people. it was a well-run campaign. we made this campaign about big ideas and big issues. which is the kind of campaign we wanted to run. so we ran the kind of campaign we wanted to run. it just wasn't enough at the end of the day and we just have to accept that. >> ryan says president obama's re-election campaign did a better job of getting voters to the polls. and he says they won fair and square. >> that was an interesting interview.
interesting to see that. all right, thank you, john. appreciate it. still ahead this morning on "starting point," going to have more on those breaking news stories. two major u.s. leaders caught up in a sex scandal. the investigation began months ago in the summer so why did the fbi not tell congress any earlier? we're going to be chatting with jason chaffetz, he's a member of the house oversight committee up next. [ male announcer ] this is anna, her long day teaching the perfect swing
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welcome, everybody. our team joining us. suzy welch is back. columnist and best-selling author. roland martin is going to join us, the host of washington watch with roland martin. he'll be with us in just a moment. and also joining us are congressman chaffetz, we'll be chatting with him about what is happening with our military. it's completely out of control.
john berman sticks around with us, as well. let's talk about the new information in this scandal surrounding the cia chief david petraeus. we're learning that general john allen, the man who took over for petraeus as command of the u.s. naval forces in afghanistan is being investigated, as well, for alleged inappropriate communications with jill kelley. who is jill kelley? she is the woman who kicked off the original petraeus probe when she complained about hostile e-mails that she was getting from the person who turned out to be petraeus mistress. congressman chaffetz, so much to start with. let's begin with john allen. how much concern is there for you, he said that he has done nothing wrong. how much concern do you have with the fact that this investigation is widening? >> well, look, these are some of our top commanders. you're not a four-star general unless you've -- you have some serious credit to actually get some stuff done. i want to make sure that the president is fully engaged. one of the things that's troubling it me is the idea that, for instance, going back to david petraeus, that he just
learned about it last week. i have a hard time believing that. if months and months and months ago this investigation started, he's not the head of fish and wildlife. he's the head of the cia. and if he's been compromised in any way, shape or form, the president of the united states needs to know that. and congress needs to be notified of that. >> are you annoyed you were not notified? we know that eric cantor knew in september or october. >> you're not going to notify all of congress. but you do have a fiduciary responsibility to tell the chairman and the ranking member of both the house and senate of the intelligence committee. and if they were not informed, and it looks like senator feinstein was not informed, then something is grossly wrong. those people have to know. >> as you know, there are people who say it's a sex scandal. he is not the first general, we go out on a limb, and say he's not the first general to have an affair. maybe the first one who got caught -- >> but it's a crime in the military. and those are four-stars. you don't go to the bathroom without six people knowing where you're going. there are a lot of people that are knowing where he was, who had proximity, and again, these
are some very serious positions that can compromise -- who are these women? do they have ties to other states? what is their background? what is going on here? because, i mean, whether you eat corn flakes or froot loops in the morning there are other intelligent agencies that want to know that. if you're sleeping around, that's pretty serious. >> you know what i find weird, maybe i'm 9 only one, i'm amazed that like gmail, it just seems for people who are responsible for our nation's security and at the highest levels of military intelligence, are using like the gmail account and doing that -- >> just seems so -- >> distracted they were. you're carrying on a relationship, and you're so distracted that you would send this kind of communication through gmail. how much were they thinking about the work that we are hoping they're thinking about? you know, the military. these guys are sending 20,000 e-mails. >> to 30,000 on general allen's case, to a party planner. that seems --
>> i still think, though, that general petraeus should testify before congress about libya and benghazi. >> will he? you could make that happen. >> we could. but i don't want to take -- we've got four dead americans. we've got people in the hospital tonight. we've got embassies all over the world that need time and attention. i don't want to let a salacious story detract from the fact that general petraeus should put his duty, his honor, his country first and foremost and testify before congress. >> i'm not even sure if it's only salacious, which is sort of how it started. because the fbi is at paula broadwell's house, or they were this morning. they wrapped up at like 1:00 in the morning. why? taking computers and things -- >> and that does -- it does suggest that there's something more serious. look, if you have a woman who is jealous about another, that's not enough to go get the kind of warrants that you need in order to gather this information. dive into the cia director's e-mail. there has to be something of much more serious -- >> we're going to ask you to stick around as we continue our conversation. because we have to talk about the fiscal cliff with you this
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and welcome back to "starting point." we're back with congressman jason chaffetz. let's talk about the fiscal cliff. we've heard a lot of conciliatory words. do you think that there's going to be an agreement? >> well, i hope so. the country needs one. i think the country, more than ever, wants us to come together. >> what does it look like in your mind? what agreement? is it an agreement where both people give something or an agreement where one person gives everything? >> no one person gets everything they want. we want a growth plan. we want to get our fiscal situation under order. >> what does it look like? draw it for me. >> well, we need -- >> i love having you in person.
i got to tell you. i could tap him when i'm going to interrupt him and say, come on. >> -- the upper cuts during the commercial break -- >> what? what does it look like. what does the agreement literally, specifically look like in your head? >> well, i believe we need to cut spending. we have to -- >> okay. >> we have to engage in entitlement reform. >> okay. >> and we've got to revise the tax code. now revising the tax code is going to be hard to do in literally the days that we have before the fiscal cliff. but i do think we can come to some common ground, particularly as it relates to getting rid of some of these loopholes and exceptions -- >> close loopholes. okay. >> we can do that. >> -- what loopholes? >> well, there's a host of them out there. isn't it? romney said during the campaign there's so many out there. i want the president to suggest some, as well. one of the things that -- >> mortgage deductions? >> maybe there should be some sort of cap to the total number of deductions -- >> child tax credit? >> there are all sorts of -- there's no limit on the ones that are out there. there are literally thousands of these that are out there. some are bigger than others but
we have to get responsible -- >> raise taxes for people who are making $250,000-plus? >> that's not something i think that we should be doing. i don't believe we should be increasing the tax rate. i like what speaker boehner said and said, look, let's work on closing these loopholes and deductions. that is common ground. there's no reason why -- >> that would raise taxes on people. this is where you get this fight in the republican party. because if your taxes go up but your tax rate doesn't go up, is that a sell republicans can live with? >> it depends how it's mixed up. we don't want to raise the tax rate. if you're closing loopholes and broadening the base, lowering the rate, then i think we could get there. >> you signed groemp norquist's pledge i'm going to assume because pretty much every congressman did. >> yes. >> would you be fine doing a compromise where you would go against your signature on that pledge. if you felt there was a compromise on the table -- >> i do not -- i do not -- >> to the pledge -- dramatic, wasn't it? >> it was dramatic. >> but i need these notes so i'm going to put them back like that. >> i do not intend to do that. i want to fight for the principles i believe in. i, too, was elected, and i think
that's part of the give and take. >> grover norquist was not elected. your constituents elected you. you don't work for grover norquist. you work for your constituents and the people. >> i didn't sign it because i was trying to please grover norquist. i signed it because i believe it. i do not believe we are one good tax increase away from prosperity in this nation. i believe we have to rein in spending, broaden the base, lower the rate and get this country working again. >> most republicans are where you are, do you actually see some kind of compromise occurring? because it sounds like where we were six, seven months ago. no, don't raise the tax rate, and others saying raise the tax rate. and then, wrpz the movement? >> you know, it's interesting. a lot of people argue let's go back to the tax rates of president clinton. and remember, let's remember that there was a republican house back then. but let's get also the spending down so the spending levels. right now we're spending in excess of 24% of gdp. in the clinton years we were spending about 19%. so if the president's going to argue let's go back to the clinton tax rates we're going to argue let's go back to the clinton spending rates.
>> congressman chaffetz, nice to have you with us. we've got to take a short break. coming up we're going to talk more about this, this scandal that has now expanded into general john allen. who announced that he has done nothing wrong. we're going to talk to congressman elijah cummings ahead. and oxford dictionary has chosen its word of the year. hmm. we'll tell you what it is. introducing yoplait greek 100. 100% new. ♪ 100% greek. 100% mmm... ♪ oh wow, that is mmm... ♪ in fact it's so mmm you might not believe it's a hundred calories. well ok then, new yoplait greek 100. it is so good. ♪
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[ male announcer ] now all you need is a magic carriage. citi price rewind. buy now. save later. welcome back, everybody. you're watching "starting point." we're following breaking news this morning. the poentagon now says they're investigating general john allen, the commander of nato forces in afghanistan in the david petraeus sex scandal. allen is under investigation for alleged inappropriate communications with jill kelley. officials say they have uncovered between 20,000 and
30,000 pages of e-mail and other documents. investigation could block general allen from becoming nato's supreme allied commander. as for ms. kelley, she's the florida woman who triggered the initial petraeus fbi investigation after she got anonymous threatening e-mails that turned out to be from petraeus' mistress paula broadwell. i know, follow. stay with me, people. it's very complicated. i could get a flow chart for you. overnight the fbi, you're looking at pictures right here from charlotte, north carolina, that's folks from the fbi doing what they called a consensual search of paula broadwell's north carolina home. they spent nearly 5 hours there, departing eventually around 1:00 in the morning. let's go to nick paton walsh in beirut, chris lawrence at the pentagon. chris, let's start with you. the pictures of the roval of items from paula broadwell's house, i think, brings this scandal, which has so far been a sex scandal, kind of to a new level at least for me. why would they be at her home
removing documents this late when we know that they discovered the original evidence of an affair back in the summer? >> well, it would suggest, soledad, that this was consensual. in other words, that paula broadwell consented to allow them to go in and get whatever they needed. because at this point, we don't believe this is some sort of criminal prosecution, at this point. it would seem that paula broadwell may be cooperating with the fbi. >> for what, though? cooperating on what front? i mean, she said she had an affair apparently, general petraeus said they had an affair. if it's all about a sexual relationship, it kind of starts there and ends there, doesn't it? so what are you getting out in boxes that -- that's where i'm kind of perplexed? >> because, remember, they did find some classified material on paula broadwell's computer. now whether she got that from david petraeus, or perhaps from one of her other many, many sources out there, that remains to be seen. but it did call into question how she knew about some of the
movements of the cia director that weren't publicized. they may be going in to see exactly what else is in there. and, the bigger question, who else may be involved in this? >> that's the really interesting question. especially since it's now, chris, expanded to really bringing a general john allen. explain to me what we've been calling a party planner, others have called a social ambassador, honorary social ambassador. what is that position? what does that person do? >> any time you've got a big military base, as u.s. central command is in tampa, the military commanders, they reach out and form alliances, relationships, with the community. you've often got people in the community who become liaisons to the military post there. organizing events, things at which the military and the community would coordinate on. that's what jill kelley was, an integral part of that community and its relationship. the relationship between all three stems from the fact that
general allen and david petraeus were both based in central command. they're in tampa, physically where jill kelley lives. we're told from sources that jill kelley and petraeus had a simple friend relationship, the couples, wives, husbands, were all friends. but that paula broadwell may not have seen it that way and may have e-mailed jill kelley as sort of a warning, because she thought that there was a relationship that perhaps wasn't there. >> which is how it all -- i'm sorry. >> just this -- this revelation of allen really calls into question the time line of who knew what and when. and by that i mean those who have said the white house had known all about this for months and months, it just doesn't wash, because if they knew all about this, why would the obama administration put general allen's name up for nomination, release a statement praising his service, schedule all these hearings, fly him here from afghanistan, only to have all this fall apart at the last
minute. if they knew all these details, it just doesn't make a lot of sense. >> and why are they searching her home if, in fact, it's just about a sexual relationship between biographer and her subject. all right, chris lawrence, thank you. general john allen, of course, denying any wrongdoing as we've mentioned. nick paton walsh was recently on the ground with the troops in afghanistan. he's in beirut for us this morning. tell me a little bit about general john allen. i think that there's so many things that are so complicated about this story. so give us some insight into who he is and how he treats certainly the folks who, who served with him. >> very much respected career soldier. he became the head of u.s. forces in the nato campaign in afghanistan. a man with acute understanding of the problems that the conflict faced there. even though his job to the most extent was a public relations man to try to sell the success of that particular war. a man who also had an incredibly complicated task ahead of him.
much of what's going to happen in afghanistan is being decided in washington, significantly months ahead and he's simply implementing it. a man also inspired great loyalty of many of the people working alongside of him. i remember one aide who had done lengthy service in iraq said he would take a call from general john allen at any time to go and work with him again. he did that in kabul and described to me once there a story of how they were in a diner, in iraq, shell landed near that dining facility and a younger soldier leapt under the table to get cover. john allen stayed in his seat and leaned under the table and said, son, you're not going to win the war from down there. very much a man who made those around him work hard, fearless sense of respect and loyalty. i'm sure they'll be surprised at what they're hearing now. >> thank you. in just a few moments we'll talk with elijah cummings on the petraeus scandal. first to john on the top stories. rescuers will try to return to the place where they spotted two stranded sn eed borders on washington's mount rainier.
they had to spend a second night on the mountain. they called 911 sunday to report they were trapped in a blizzard. thousands now entering week three without power after superstorm sandy and anger is boiling over. especially at lipa the power company that serves long island and hard-hit far rockaway in queens. >> and i can't get light on for my kids? i can't get power, heat, garbage pickup, nothing? >> all we need is help. i'm a taxpayer. i don't get this. i pay my mortgage. i do what i do are the right things. i don't take from the government. but i need the government to help me now. >> we go to bed at night, shivering, wearing tons of clothes every single night. we have not seen one lipa truck come down my block. not one. i have not seen any on any of these blocks. >> meantime, new york city has now okayed $500 million to repair the city schools and hospitals. and in new jersey, gas rationing ends today.
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gif edged out yolo, short for you only live once, and superstorm, a late addition after sandy, of course. >> gif, that's the best i can do. >> you know? the reason it's big now is you can animate it. you can actually make it move and stuff and that's a big deal. >> very much -- >> shows how old you are. like anybody under 30 today, gif is how they communicate with each other. >> that's the best they can do? >> i agree. i just don't think -- >> that's the best they can do. >> superstorm made an entrance about two weeks ago. >> didn't have time to pick up -- >> i would -- >> i think we could do better. >> no need to introduce roland martin who jumped right in. we've been talking all morning about petraeus sex scandal. >> it's crazy. >> it's now expanded. we know that the top u.s. commander in afghanistan, general john allen, is also under investigation for these what they called inappropriate communications. jill kelley, jill kelley linked
to the scandal because she was the recipient of the hostile e-mails that were coming first anonymously from what turned out to be paula broadwell, who turned out, we should do a chart, turns out to be the mistress of general petraeus. defense official tells cnn that authorities were looking into some 20,000 to 30,000 pages of documents between ms. kelley and general allen. secretary leon panetta announced it all in a statement released at 1:00 in the morning this morning saying the fbi referred the case to the pentagon. the pentagon is now investigating. let's get right to maryland congressman elijah cummings the ranking democrat on the house oversight committee. okay. let's start with general john allen which is the latest thing and we now know about announced by -- leon panetta at 1:00 in the morning. how much concern do you have about what's happening in the story? are we really just seeing sort of a tangled, you know, connections of what is essentially a sex scandal and nothing more than that? >> i'm not sure what it is. and i think that that's why we need to let these investigations
go forward. to try to figure out what we have here. i do believe that it's becoming quite serious when you're talking about 20,000 to 30,000 e-mails. i think we need to let it run its course as one who has done investigations and as a lawyer i can tell you that i think what the fbi has to do and which i know they are do something following the evidence wherever it may lead. and so we will just have to wait and see. >> general allen says there's been no wrongdoing on his part. and yet i don't think i've even sent 30,000 e-mails to my producer who i talk to a zillion times a day. i mean that's a tremendous volume of messaging somebody who is in essence a party planner. then you have the fbi removing boxes of material from paula broadwell's house. what's the -- what's happening there? we're looking at pictures of it, by the way. >> you know, i'm not sure what's happening. you never know how the fbi is operating, and what they are finding.
again, in any investigation, a lot of times, soledad, what happens is that things that they did not expect to find, they find. and then again, they follow the evidence wherever it may lead. and so, i think that again we have the fbi investigation. we're going to have, i'm sure, the intelligence committee involved in this. i heard senator feinstein talking about her plans, so i think that we will get to the bottom of this. and i think what will probably happen in the end is that we'll figure out what went wrong here. and it will be one of those critical moments where we have to correct our course, whatever mistakes may have been made. if any. but i do believe that this is a critical moment for our military. >> congressman elijah cummings joining us. ranking member of the house oversight committee. nice to see you, sir. thank you for your time this morning. we appreciate it. >> my pleasure. >> still ahead, a starting point, he resigned after a sex scandal of his own. former new jersey governor jim
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welcome back, everybody. that fbi probe that uncovered general petraeus' affair with his biographer stem from alleged harassing e-mails that the biographer sent to another woman, 37-year-old jill kelley is that other woman, said to be close friends with the petraeus family. jason ranning is with our affiliate bay-9 news outside of the kelley's house in tampa, florida, this morning. any comment yet from the kelley
family about all of this scandal which is now, as you well know, growing by day? >> no. they've kept a very low profile since the weekend, as this controversy has grown for jill kelley, soledad. outside of the kelley home today, things are fairly quiet. some media still camped out here. but you're looking live here at the kelley home in tampa that has hosted several military parties from mcdill air force base. that's how we have learned kelley became friends with general david petraeus. and obviously, how this controversy started, that led to the scandal, and the end of general petraeus' career with the cia. want to show you a picture of jill kelley right now. known here in tampa as a volunteer and social liaison for mcdill air force base. the pentagon says it is now investigating inappropriate e-mails between kelley and general john allen. a top u.s. commander in afghanistan. there are reports that there may be as many as 20,000 to 30,000 documents linking kelley to
allen. general allen served as deputy commander, and for a short time, temporary commander, at u.s. central command here in tampa. that from 2010 to 2012. now we know kelley had a social relationship and friendship with general petraeus during that time, but we don't know what, if any, kind of relationship kelley had with allen when he served in tampa. we do know that the kelley family has hired abe lowe to represent them. he is an attorney that is known for his past representation of president bill clinton and jack abramoff, also john edwards. we also know the kelley family has hired judy smith. that's a crisis manager, that has previously worked with monica lewinsky. so if that gives you an idea of who the kelley family now has representing them, it could say a lot about what may be contained in those 20,000 to 30,000 documents. >> so, i should mention. it's 20,000 to 30,000 pages of documents, which is still a lot. but i think that's a critical
detail to clarify. and when you talked about judy smith, of course, judy smith, the tv show "scandal" is based on what she does. she's a crisis manager. so they've hired now, the real-life judy smith to help -- >> one of the top in the business. >> that's amazing. jason ranning with our affiliate bay nine news outside the kelley home in tampa, florida. thank you, jason. we appreciate the update. ahead this morning we'll talk to a man whose political career was brought down by a sex scandal of his own. former new jersey governor jim mcgreevey will chat with us. [ female announcer ] today, jason is here
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the petraeus sex scandal. general john allen is now under scrutiny as well. there are sources that investigators are going through between 20,000 and 30,000 pages of potentially inappropriate documents between general allen and jill kelley. jill kelley is also linked to the petraeus scandal. jim mcgreevey gave an unforgettable speech in 2004. that was his wife, standing by his side, where he resigned from office and then he announced he was a gay american. quite a bombshell at the time. nice to have you with us. we appreciate it. >> thank you. >> let's dig a little deeper into sort of the anatomy of a scandal. i'm of two minds. we've been chatting about it in all the commercial breaks. is it a sex scandal and do we care because it's selacious and interesting details? is it important because national security is at risk? i'm kind of two minds. if it's just the relationship between the two of them i'm not
sure i care. >> soledad, for me, you grapple with your individual person. so where you are at that moment in time in your office. and then there's, obviously, legal and governmental concerns. the responsibilities that the government has to discharge for which you are responsible and then, of course, there are familial concerns. all three come in at different parts, stronger or weaker but those three aspects are there. >> so are you thinking i've got to protect my family or are you saying listen, i'm a powerful legislature and i need to think about my career, which at the moment was in sham -- what was your mind-set? >> at that moment in time, i think i had come to peace with myself and my god and i understood that i'm letting this go. i'm going to try to do the next right thing. and obviously having been in the closet for so many years, i
recognized that was an unhealthy place. so, in a sense for me, it was actually freeing to claim one's own truth. and i think the painful thing that we see in this scandal unfolding is that the general has a family, has a wife. >> the kelleys have a family. >> exactly. >> the broadwells have a family. >> it's also important to note that you were involved with someone you appointed to a position. that's swr someone who is under your authority. >> sure. >> when it comes to petraeus, here is someone who was writing a book. she was privy to sensitive information. she knew the whereabouts of the head of the cia, which is closely guarded. i think this goes far beyond, well, there might have been an affair. now you have so many other pieces because she's talked publicly about the cia operating a secret prison in ben gaghazi. so she's sharing details publicly that i'm sure the government is saying, wait a minute. we need to know what this woman knows. >> i'm sure there will be plenty
of people to cast stones and those stones will be thrown. it's not just when you look at general petraeus and general allen, these are exceptional men and there seeming ly was an inappropriate relationship. if you look back to history, great generals during the course of world war ii, there were allegations that some of the greatest generals in the pantheon -- >> it's not a shocker. >> it's not a shocker. and so it's -- when you look at general petraeus and general allen, these are men that the nation needs. so, yes, we need to make sure that military secrets that the cia was preserved and protected, but we also need to understand the human dimension. >> what are you doing now? obviously we talk about like what does petraeus do next? people talked about him running for president one day. that certainly seems off the table. what do you do now? >> i work with women in jail.
these are women of sexual violence, physical violence that grew up in camden or the hard streets of new york city. we try to teach them a new value system. we talk about jobs, living arrangements and unifying with their families. one out of every 99 americans is in jail. we have more people in prison than any nation in the world. when you talk about reclaiming souls, second chances, god willing, america could do a little better with this. >> jim mcgreevey, thank you. >> thank you. where others fail, droid powers through.
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his relationship, his relationship with a woman that sparked the original probe into general petraeus. plus the feds pay a visit to the woman that petraeus had an affair with, paula broadwell. we'll explain it all for you straight ahead this morning and take a look at how deep this goes. correspondents this morning at the pentagon, white house and beirut as well. we'll be talking to tom price, who chairs the house republican policy committee, debbie wasserman schultz is back and jon meacham has a new book about thomas jefferson. he will join us as well. tuesday, november 13th, and "starting point" begins right now. morning. welcome, everybody. our team this morning, talking about the breaking news, suzy
suzywelch, roland martin and john berman as well. the scandal that has forced the cia director david petraeus to resign. it gets very complicated. so stay with me. the new general in this case is john allen, who took over for petraeus in afghanistan. he is under investigation for alleged inappropriate communications with a woman named jill kelley. general allen had exchanged thousands of pages of documents, inappropriate e-mails, inappropriate communications is what they're calling it, with miss kelley, described as a petraeus family friend. apparently at the very beginning of all this, miss kelley, on the right of your screen there, unwittingly exposed the petraeus affair with paula broadwell after she went to the fbi to complain about those anonymous, threatening e-mails.
tu turned out to be from paula broadwell. "the wall street journal" rather is reporting that the fbi agent who launched the initial petraeus investigation when ms. kelley went to him to complain about those e-mails, he's now under investigation, too. why? apparently he sent a shirtless picture of himself, at least one -- maybe more -- to jill kelley, the woman there on the left side of your screen now, who kicked off all of this with those complaints about inappropriate e-mails that she was getting. paula broadwell wasn't home but the fbi paid a visit to her home in north carolina overnight. a team of agents was searching her residence, there for nearly five hours, seen leaving with duffel bags of potential evidence. brianna keilar is at the white house. chris, why don't you start with general john allen, 30,000 pages of documents is a shocking amount of back and forth between a high-ranking general and a woman who is, in essence, a
party planner. true? >> yeah. you're talking about someone who was running u.s. central command and running the war in afghanistan. you're talking dozens of pages of e-mails every day for the better part of two or three years. defense sources say that these e-mails began in 2010 and just ended this year. here is the physical connection. general john allen was based at u.s. central command in tampa. that's where jill kelley lives. he then left for afghanistan to take over the war effort from david petraeus. he was just 48 hours away from starting his confirmation hearings to become the head of nato. now the pentagon has asked that hearing to be put on hold. right now, the pentagon is saying they're standing behind general allen as the commander in afghanistan for now. >> so then, let me ask you another question. what are the implications of all of this? i know one of the areas they're
investigating is a comment that paula broadwell made while she was giving a speech on october 26th. and in that speech she talked about whether libyans were being held at the cia or by the cia in benghazi and potential ly some f the attacks on benghazi could have been connected or correlated to the -- how does that connect to all of this, do you think? >> it raised questions for people wondering if she had access to, you know, certain classified information that was out there, divulging it when perhaps she shouldn't have been. but again, intelligence officials have told us that that's categorically untrue, that there were no prisoners at the annex in libya. it also calls into question the revelation of general allen, who
knew what when. people are saying the white house knew all these details for months and months. why would the white house then allow the pentagon to put allen up for the head of nato, why would president obama release a statement praising him and formally nominating him for the head of nato, schedule all these meetings and then have it fall apart at the last minute? i'm not saying they didn't have some knowledge but it is possible that the administration did not know everything that was going on in this investigation. >> there are so many whys on this case when at its face seems like a sex scandal. chris lawrence for us this morning, thank you, chris. let's turn to some of those whys and go right to d.c., pending nomination for general allen, to be the head of the u.s. nato forces in europe is delayed. you heard chris lay out all those whys we do not know. if the white house knew
everything, it does seem odd that they would so aggressively be behind general allen and now have it sort of explode on them. even though i have to reiterate he has claimed no wrongdoing on this so far. >> certainly. and it makes you wonder if this detail about general allen came somewhat behind the case of general petraeus. general allen is here in the u.s. ahead of what was to be his confirmation hearing on thursday. a statement coming out from the white house, the first reaction that we've had since we've learned the new details of general allen, spokesperson for the national security council saying that at the request of defense secretary leon panetta, president obama has put that hearing on hold and they are urging that general joseph dunnford, his nomination move forward quickly. he was already set to be
succeeded by general dunford, whose confirmation hearing also set for thursday is going to proceed. it is somewhat of a critical time, president obama figuring out with those remaining 68,000 american combat troops in afghanistan how to really structure the timeline to bring them out by the end of 2014 as previously planned. so having a structure, military structure in place and having continuity, very important. >> brianna, appreciate that. want to turn now to congressman tom price, currently running for the chair of the house republican conference, the fourth highest position among republicans. nice to see you, sir. >> thank you, soledad. >> what do you think of this? i mean all of it, and it's complicating little winding tentacles that seem to be expanding every minute whachlt do you think? >> i think you asked the right question, there's a lot of whys. congress' role is oversight. there will be oversight
hearings, but the real question is about this administration. why the opaqueness? why the transparency? when wha did they know, when did they know it? as senator feinstein said over the weekend she didn't even know what the white house knew as it related to general petraeus. there are real questions that need to be answered, this administration and these individuals need to answer questions about whether there was any compromise in american intelligence or security. >> do you think general petraeus should have resigned ? we've been having this conversation in the commercial breaks this morning. a guy who is very experienced. both sides of the aisle, i would think, people would say they are fans of general petraeus, a lot of experience with his resignation you would lose. although it seems to be getting more complicated every minute, if it's a sex scandal at the end of the darks i guarantee you, willing to put money on this, he is not the first general to have an affair with a younger colleague in some capacity. do you think he should resign? >> if he had violated the trust
in the manner that he did, how could he then enforce the rules for individuals that were serving under him? not for me to decide that. look, this points out human frailty. humans often times come up short. and it's just so very sad. sad for general petraeus, sad for his family. but we need to dust ourselves off, make sure that american securi security, american intelligence weren't compromised and get back to the hard work of serving the american people. >> i agree with you on that. it is sad because there are a lot of kids involved. this is a big, giant mess. we mentioned you're up for the chair of the house republican conference. are you interested in that gig? >> well, these are decisions that are made by our conference, the new congress, 113th. we're so excited, this is orientation in washington for the new -- >> is that a yes or no, sir? >> absolutely. we're raring to go. we've got positive solutions. house republicans have put
forward positive solutions based on fundamental principles. they've languaished over in the senate. we have called the president and asked him to encourage harry reid to at least look at them. john berman has other news that's not a scandal in the u.s. military. >> there is news that is not a scandal, believe it or not. little bit. cabinet shuffle, the president is considering senator john kerry to serve as his next secretary of defense and susan rice, u.s. ambassador of the united nations would take over for outgoing secretary of state hillary clinton. cold and fed up. entering week three without power after superstorm sandy. in the har hard-hit rockaways and queens, they're marking the crash of flight 587 two months
after september 11th, 2001. doing that while dealing with this ongoing disaster. >> i'm a survivor. i used to work in saudi arabia until the war broke out. and then i went home. i'm from the philippines. i went back to the old country. then the volcano erupted. and then the plane crash here across the street two months after september 11th. >> now okayed $500 million to repair schools and hospitals. authorities in indianapolis still don't know what caused that explosion that leveled the neighborhood over the weekend. drauchl attic new pictures show the extent of the delve administration. two people were killed and seven others injured in that blast. check out this video posted by a couple on youtube at the time the president asked to hear the story about how they got engaged. this happened while the president was making a stop at one of his campaign offices back in august. >> i just got engaged yesterday.
>> nice. >> and it was someone who works in -- >> i'm responsible? >> you're responsible. >> where is he? >> probably over there in analytics. >> what's his name? >> matt? matt, come on over. >> i really need to take care of this. >> five years. >> put a ring on it. >> ring on it. >> yeah, yeah. >> all the single ladies. >> that was actually pretty funny. >> a lot of campaigns want to keep personal. >> i guess that's fair. >> that hand gesture, everybody in america would recognize. >> all the single ladies. put a ring on it, baby. >> that's funny. still ahead on "starting point" you might not know him but you probably have his software on your pc somewhere,
john mcafee. now he is wanted in question for the murder of his neighbor. we'll talk to someone who knows him well. that's coming up next. man: okay, no problem. it's easy to get started; i can help you with the paperwork. um...this green line just appeared on my floor. yeah, that's fidelity helping you reach your financial goals. could you hold on a second? it's your money. roll over your old 401(k) into a fidelity ira and take control of your personal economy. this is going to be helpful. call or come in today. fidelity investments. turn here. music is a universal language. but when i was in an accident... i was worried the health care system spoke a language all its own with unitedhealthcare, i got help that fit my life. information on my phone. connection to doctors who get where i'm from. and tools to estimate what my care may cost. so i never missed a beat. we're more than 78,000 people looking out for more than 70 million americans. that's health in numbers. unitedhealthcare.
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a manhunt is under way this morning for cyber security pioneer john mcafee. authorities are searching for him in connection with the murder of his neighbor. he founded the anti-virus software company named after him in 1987. 2008 he moved to brazil where those close to him say he started to show some erratic behavior. he has been arrested in 2009 for weapons possession and april of this year for drug manufacturing. this man has known john mcafee for many years. how did you meet him and when? >> at the time he was trying to
introduce a new sport to americans. he thought it would be great if everyone embraced the arrow tracking. he thought it would be a great daechlt i write a lot about adventure, aviation. i went and tried this. it was a lot of fun. >> how did he seem to you, though? he had left mcafee software. >> by this point he had been a wealthy man of leisure for 15 years or so and doing whatever he wanted. he was traveling around the world. he did long distance jet ski trips and would sink his jet skis and he would do these atvs cross country and crash his atvs. >> fun adventurer or crazy adventurer? there's a difference. >> different people have different thresholds for crazy. i personally found it very fun. >> somewhere along the line he stepped over into some kind of dealings with drugs, right? isn't that where he went off the
track for fun to danger? >> i've been writing about him for five years. i started out really liking him. he is a larger than life, charismatic person. >> but? >> as time went by, there's a darker side. he is very adept at presenting a facade. people would come forward to me after i wrote an article and would say you should know about this, comments of stories, company article in 2010, people came forward and said look at this. and i notice that, sure enough, his facade seemed to crumble. >> do you think he killed this guy? apparently it was a neighbor. there was a dispute over -- has it crumbled to the point that they believe he killed his neighbor. do you believe that? >> the people in his community was frightened of him. last time i visited him he welcomed me warmly into his home, invited me to spend the night at his house, the hairs on the back of my neck were up.
he's scary. >> he sold mcafee for like $ billion, almost $8 billion. was was he still a gajillionaire or was he running out of money? >> i don't know the figure. he did not own it at that point. when he sold out he got about $100 million. he is a very rich guy, granted, but not technically a billionaire. he has the resources, presumably, to do what he wants. >> jeff wise, i have the feeling we are not anywhere near the end of that story with this guy. thank you. this is sort of the morning of crazy. >> yeah. still ahead, on "starting point" we'll get back to jill kelley, the woman who triggered the investigation that ended up uncovering the petraeus affair. a report straight ahead on that and much more. we'll be back in just a moment. our abundant natural gas is already saving us money, producing cleaner electricity, putting us to work here in america and supporting wind and solar.
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the fbi probe to uncovered general petraeus' affair with his biographer stemmed from harassing e-mails sent to another woman. that woman we now know is jill kelley. bay news 9 outside the kelley home, tell us more about miss ank kelley. >> reporter: well, we know jill kelley hosted a number of military parties at her home, soledad, here in tampa. you can see that home now. things have been quiet. the family keeping a very low profile. but it is at this home where this whole scandal with general david petraeus began, possibly back in 2011. we want to show you a picture of 37-year-old jill kelley. she is known here in tampa as a volunteer and social liaison for
the air force base where david petraeus once served as commander. the independepentagon says it i investigating inappropriate e-mails between kelley and general john allen, top u.s. commander in afghanistan. there are reports that there may be as many as 20,000 to 30,000 documents linking kelley to allen. general allen, we know, served as deputy commander and, for a short time, temporary commander at u.s. central command here in tampa from 2010 to 2012. kelley also had a social relationship and friendship with general petraeus. we don't know what kind of relationship kelley may have had with allen when he served here in tampa. jill kelley has hired an attorney, aib lowell to represent her. he used to represent president bill clinton, john edwards and jack abramoff. judy smith has been brought in as a crisis manager.
she used to work as a crisis manager for monica lewinsky. we don't know if these heavy hitters that have been brought in to represent the family can tell us anything about what's contained in those 20,000 to 30,000 documents. outside the family's home in tampa. >> i will only add to that, that 20,000 to 30,000 pages of documents, which is a teeny tiny difference. that's a whole bunch of documents. debbie wasserman schultz will join us to talk about this scandal. and the fiscal cliff. return of the jedi. little boy, look at this. how cute is this? wait till the big reveal. it's awesome. [ male announcer ] citi turns 200 this year.
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welcome back, everybody. you're watching "starting point." the pentagon is now investigating general john allen. that is our breaking news this morning. he, of course, is the top commander in afghanistan. his investigation surrounds the david petraeus sex scandal. general allen allegedly had inappropriate communications, which we're not exactly sure specifically what that means. but the woman involved in that is jill kelley. as many as 30,000 pages of documents are at the center of that inappropriate communications. miss kelley is the florida woman, you might remember, who triggered the initial petraeus investigation after she received anonymous, threatening e-mails from a woman who turned out to be general petraeus' mistress, paula broadwell. i feel like i need a chart to spell this out for everybody. a five-hour search of miss broadwell's home was conducted by the fbi, they're calling it a
consensual search. chris lawrence is at the pentagon for us this morning. any idea what they were taking out of that home? >> no, soledad. not just yet. they have already look ed at he computer, paula broadwell showed the fbi what was on her computer. so we believe this was probably a consensual search as well with paula broadwell essentially probably saying you can come in, take a look at whatever you want to. >> how big of an impact is this -- sort of the web, i guess, if that's the right word to use, expanding to include general allen who, i should say, has said -- says there's no wrongdoing on his part in all of this. >> it's huge. from what we know about those e-mails between paula broadwell and jill kelley, there were generals, plural, involved. so this may just be the tip of the iceberg in terms of other people who may be involved. but general allen was just 48 hours away from a senate confirmation hearing to perhaps
become the head of nato. that has now been postponed. right now the pentagon is saying they're still going to stand by him in afghanistan in terms of allowing him to keep that position for now. here is what secretary leon panetta said, releasing a statement saying while this matter is under investigation and before the facts are determined, general allen will remain commander of isaf. the secretary has asked the president and the president has agreed to put his nomination on hold until the relevant facts are determined. so, in other words, he will keep the job, but they still want his replacement to get pushed through the confirmation to relieve him of that command as soon as possible. >> chris lawrence is at the pentagon for us this morning. thank you, chris. let's get to john and a look at the other news. >> leon panetta prepares to meet with defense ministers in asia and australia. as chris just said in a statement panetta says that
general allen will remain as commander in afghanistan while alleged inappropriate communications with jill kelley will ber being investigated. supreme allied commander in nato in europe, confirmation hearings are on hold. southeast of phoenix, police say an arizona woman ran over her husband because he didn't vote in the presidential election. witnesses called 911 saying -- this is what they said. they were watching 28-year-old holly solam at first weaving around her husband and then flat out hitting him. he is in critical condition. she's in jail on aggravated assault charges. >> wait a minute, wait a minute. so many more questions. who were they voting for? >> doesn't matter. >> he didn't vote at all. >> vote, doggone it. >> what is not about -- >> i guess that slogan vote or die really said volumes to holly, huh? >> moving on now. u.p.s. joining intel
announcing it will no longer give money to the boy scouts of america as long as the boy scouts discriminates against gays as more than 80,000 people si signed an online petition. u.p.s. gave more than $80,000 to the boy scouts in 2011, according to its federal tax return. this story i love. i am your father. an extremely touching video on youtube. little boy in kansas thought he was having a light saber fight with his cousin at his birthday party but it was his reservist father dressed as darth vader. as can you see, the son had no idea. >> get him, aidan. oop. you got him. you got him. really good. >> daddy!
>> i just love those videos. very nice. >> darth vader turned out to be a good guy. >> that is so cute. that is so sweet. love that. kind of takes us away. get teary eyed. takes our mind off our top story this morning, which is the craziness, apparently, in the u.s. military. general john allen, top man in afghanistan is also being investigated in this expanding sex scandal that originally involved david petraeus. let's get right to florida congresswoman debbie wasserman schultz. usually we're talking politics. i guess this is starting to involve politics. let's start first about your reaction as this expands to include general allen. what do you make of this? he has claim nod wrongdoing, i should add. >> disturbing is the word that has come to my mind since all of
this has come to light. really, i think it goes without saying if you're the director of the cia, if you are a four-star general in the united states army that you have to hold yourself to a higher standard. and you can't put yourself in a compromising position. and, you know, i realize that there's a lot of back and forth over wihether or not these are personal allegations and personal relationships. the fact is that if you're in a position like the two of them are, the possibility of being compromised is there. and, you know, it's just something that is disturbing and requires much more significant, further investigation. >> we heard this, when should congress be told certain things? because when you have investigations, let's be honest, congress doesn't hold many secrets very well. stuff gets out real quick, especially for political purposes. but when should the fbi do what they're supposed to do and then go to congressional leaders? people are saying white house should have known, congress
should have been told. >> let's talk to tom price, who spoke about that. >> the administration, why the opaqueness, what did they know, when did they know it? why wasn't it communicated from this administration? they need to answer the question whether there was any compromise in american intelligence or security. >> i think so far it's been clear that there hasn't been any compromise and that that's why they didn't move it up. but i agree with secretary panetta, who said that we -- absolutely there should have been notification of the intelligence congressional leadership, as is the proper protocol long before it occurred. >> that's actual protocol? >> it is. >> if a leader such as petraeus is under investigation, the house and senate leaders are notified ? >> there is always a push me, pull you on when that notification occurs. those congressional intelligence leaders are in a constant
battle. i used to sit on the intelligence oversight panel and communications committee. it's not the rank and file members but the leadership, the big four are supposed to be notified. >> how about the white house in this? congressman price's point is that -- a lot of people, chris lawrence from the pentagon also has said why is the president poo putting forward withy lot of fanfare, i think, general allen if all of this is going to be revealed? it doesn't make sense. so either they don't care or they didn't know. >> at least thus far what it appears is that they didn't know. i mean, there seems to have been -- that's woi an investigation has to be done. a thorough and clear investigation. this is purely about protecting the united states' interests, protecting americans and making sure that american interests are not compromised. the what did he know and when did he know it? that smacks of politics.
we have to come together, make sure there's no question it should be investigated. it is going to be investigated like the defense secretary said. intelligence, congressional leaders should have been notified sooner. let's not have this spiral downward into something that just becomes more politics. we just came off an election. >> i've got to tell you, there are so many weird things, fbi taking stuff out of her house, 20,000 to 30,000 pages of documents. there's a lot of weirdness that isn't just random sex scandals. >> someone said that comes out to like 41 e-mails a day. >> that's a lot. >> in a big job who has -- >> let me ask you about the fiscal cliff and then you can jump i on that. grover norquist was on our show the other day. i'll play a chunk of what he told us and we'll talk on the other side. >> we're in exactly the same position we were two years ago. president obama said the economy is doing so poorly, we can't raise taxes now. the economy is doing as poorly now as it was two years ago and
to raise taxes now would hurt the entire economy and last -- two years ago, they extended all of the tax cuts for two years. they should consider doing exactly the same thing and focus on the problem they created, which is too much spending. >> so, do you see yourself as a bridge builder in congress? are you going to say, yes, let's cut spending and in exchange for cutting spending, we've got to raise taxes. when we talk to jason chaffetz, he sure as heck doesn't sound like he's going to raise anybody's taxes. >> i consider myself, as a member of congress, a bridge builder, despite the fact that i am the head of the democratic national committee. clearly, norquist didn't get the membero of the president's re-election. we have to deal with deficit reduction, but number one we have to deal with creating jobs. we extended those bush tax two years ago, it was because of
republican transatives. >> it's not like governor romney got 20% of the vote. >> the margins are closer -- the republican mantra of, you know, lower taxes, don't raise taxes under any circumstances, that we should lower the rates and close unspeci unspecified loopholes, that notion, that notion lost. what won on tuesday -- >> by this much. >> no, not so much by this much. >> you lose, you lose. >> the president won with 332 electoral votes, he won by more than 3 million votes across the country. >> half the nation didn't agree with him. with all due respect, right? president won, i get it. >> it was a close election, but it was very clear. two paths, two visions. >> it's not going to put a dent in the deficit, even if you raise the taxes. >> we have to -- >> there has to be spending cuts. >> i voted last summer for the debt ceiling deal that included $1.5 trillion dollars in deficit
reduction, spending cuts which included, as many democrats did also, cuts i spent my career opposing. and then i had to go home and defend those cuts to my liberal district because i know you -- it can't be my way or the highway. but if tom price and jason chaffetz, both of whom i get along really well with don't understand that the balanced approach won last tuesday, then we are in for a real problem. >> congressman -- congresswoman debbie wasserman schultz, thank you for joining us this morning. >> thanks. >> i always mangle your name. >> that's why i always tell people to vote for the longest name on the ballot. >> middle name in there as well. >> you must have more names. >> beth. >> debbie beth -- congresswoman debbie beth wasserman schultz. >> deborah, even longer. one of the most revered founding fathers, more than 200 years later.
a new book takes a very close look at thomas jefferson, what today's leaders could learn from him, up next. not in this economy. we also have zero free time, and my dad moving in. so we went to fidelity. we looked at our family's goals and some ways to help us get there. they helped me fix my economy, the one in my house. now they're managing my investments for me. and with fidelity, getting back on track was easier than i thought. call or come in today to take control of your personal economy. get one-on-one help from america's retirement leader.
welcome back, everybody. we're going to introduce our next guest. thomas jefferson, of course, one of our most revered founding fathers, the author of the declaration of independence and the third president of the united states. in recent years, though, some of the more sela tchselacious deta caught people's attention. the author is jon meacham. nice to have you back. >> thank you, soledad.
>> you approach it very differently than past biographers have. why this direction? >> one of my many flaws is that i like politicians. >> i'm so sorry, sir. >> i know. >> you need help. >> it keeps us all not missing any mooep mealeals, especially . i think we have to know as much as we possibly can about people who are engaged in political work. >> how would you describe thomas jefferson in ways that -- you say he's a seducer? >> oh, my gosh, yes, terrific retail politician. wonderful eyes. women tended to swoon for him. he did not, however, have any e-mails -- he might have, had he had the opportunity. he was able to make people fall in love with him without knowing quite why. one of the things that he was so good at, he was a brilliant writer and he was an architect of really the politics of op optimism. reagan, clinton, hope and change
themes of 2008 are part of the jefferson, tomorrow will be better than today. >> i look at today from the hostile e-mails i got from our last segment and tweets and think we're really divide as a nation from the last election. 49-51, but it was 48-51. was it as bad then? >> it took thomas jefferson 36 ballots in the house after the election of 1800 to become president. >> 36? >> 36. he governed in intensely partisan atmosphere. there were ads in newspapers in new england saying you could have god and john adams or jefferson and no god. i mean, this was -- the culture wars were very much with us from the very beginning. and what i think is so interesting about him, he managed to transcend them and get just enough done. >> when he was the vice president just abandoned the president. >> he ran against him, yeah.
>> right. >> that was a tough moment. now the system was different then. if you came in second you became vice president. imagine the obama/romney situation in that sense. he and john adams were the great frenemies in life. they fell out over politics in the 1790s and came back together again. it's actually an interesting tale of redemption. they fundamentally disagreed about the most important things about the country, but they admired each other in the sense that they were both fighting in a cause. >> can we ask about sally hemmings? you write this, slavery was a real subject where it kept him from martialing his hope in the service of cause of reform. on one hand, big reformer. you talked about optimism. on the other hand, his actual life completely contradicted that. >> absolutely. >> people describe sally, that she was in love with him. oth
others have said that was completely untrue, that she was a slave and in a position that she was going to do whatever it took to survive. there's a range of theories on that. why was he like that when he so seemed to be for everything -- against everything that slavery stood for? >> because he was a human being. >> right. >> and he was fundamentally flawed and could not imagine a world -- could not imagine his world without slavery. as a young man, he tried four or five times in law and in politics to reform the institution and failed decisively and public ly. failing decisively and failing publicly. it's my argument that he was quintessentially a political creature because he gave up on reforming a system that, as a young man -- he died in 1725 instead of 1826 he would be a source of wonderful quotations about the emancipation. two sins of american loif,
slavery and the removal of native americans. >> they were perfect, wonderful individuals that we need to say, no. there's a mirror here that they should own up to the aspect as well. >> that is totally so important. they were men before they were monuments. and if we put them on a pedestal, i think it forecloses their capacity to teach and it keeps us from being able to learn as much from them. >> the mirror is right here. >> if flawed people can do the good he did, then maybe we can, too. >> thomas jefferson: the art of power. so good seeing you. >> thank you. >> "starting point" is back in a moment. if you are one of the millions of men
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dr. sanjay gupta says even that didn't stop him from flying. >> reporter: the view that astronaut rich clifford has had three times when he blasted into space aboard "discovery" in 1992, "endeavour" in 1994 and "a "atlantis" in 1996. he had recently been diagnosed with parkinson's disease. >> i didn't really have any symptoms of it other than my right arm didn't swing naturally when i walked. >> when he told his doctor that his arm was affecting his racketball game he was immediately sent to a neurologist. >> he looked at me for five minutes and said you have parkinson's disease. >> his bosses at nasa asked him what he wanted to do. >> i said i wanted to fly again. >> he was heading back into space on "atlantis." only his shuttle commander knew. >> i was certificated to fly and
that was good enough for them. >> a once in a lifetime opportunity, six-hour spacewalk. >> fantastic. doing a spacewalk is a privilege and something every astronaut searches for. >> reporter: for years the stiffness in his arm was the only symptom. then three years ago the trembling began followed by head bobbing. his neurologist tried to convince clifford to go publicly with the story many times. last year, 17 years after being diagnosed, he finally did. >> i got diagnosed with parkinson's when i was 42 years old. got to keep focused on what it is you want to do in life and proceed down that path. nothing should hold you back. >> dr. sanjay gupta, cnn, reporting. "end point" is up next. [ woman ] ring. ring. progresso. your soups are so awesomely delicious my husband and i can't stop eating 'em! what's...that... on your head?