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tv   Book Discussion on The Taliban Revival  CSPAN  July 27, 2014 7:30pm-9:04pm EDT

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[inaudible conversations] >> good morning to this session as director from the carnegie endowment and you
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will say a few words about it but what this is about is launching of the of book "the taliban revival" violence and extremism on the pakistan-afghanistan frontier" this is a timely book or maybe not because we arrived at the end of the cycle in afghanistan but unless we believe our own propaganda, so since 2001 the lot of people have died in afghanistan with people from the region all that was
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made to eradicate an end notes the stays in the country is about the election and what is going wrong. but men of what we see actually involves the south of the east'' we cannot be surprised with that mass information the point is not that we know what is going on or retry cover the question is whether does it seem almost 30 years with the additional war in afghanistan? had the taliban bin
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eradicated? and this is what it is the about how to make it to the situation we are in now? so the movement to everybody from 2000 to saw more or less eradicated or as a residual. this is what the book by hassan abbas is about and i am happy to
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at international affairs at the kennedy school. but to me what is more important is many as you
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remember the first book i will not stand between you and the speaker and present your book. >> thank you very much. it is a great privilege and honor to be here to find time. but then his courageous inspiration and also this is an advocacy group from with
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those americans with the guidance of many of the scholars with the belief with those pakistan relations so thank you very much and i wish you best of luck with your endeavors. to first give you a gesture of the evidence of my book and also touche talk about my recent visit either mandated pakistan for about 15 days.
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i had been opportunity to speak in just mentioning it is the television and it is very interesting. to be on the streets this important and rich. stood to talk about some of those, first and foremost, with the limited sense here in the united states to be in the tribal areas and some
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of my idea is one of the and the standings to consider the idea with some of the stories or the ideas. but what i want to begin is i have lived in many major cities around the world that take up about 80%. so the book is not as an hospitable but at the same time with the orientation of
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the villages there quite secular. if you think back at 1997 thinking of those militants who were killing people on the streets. and i remember the few years before from those days but this was the late 1990's and is whenever you smoke but
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the have them seen as hospitable war very secular to be called frontier gandhi so in that sense that people would call him frontier gandhi because of the ideals what was the biggest? to see it up close that they are producing unfortunately but in search of that question in the united states period familiar with
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the phrase but have never if you pick up the history books you will see them focusing if there is the comparative study. india of course, but it is difficult to to find the books because this is the 9/11 construct because of the focus but there is not enough economic or historical treatment but if i want to tell you more about the past june --
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pashtun but it is pronounced differently. but with that 60 year-old the country, very different ideas and ethnic sectors for what we know today. it is of course, a product of a progressive movement and i teach this from the students from the political leaders that are from very different backgrounds.
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that it is difficult to see how the founders goes into a different direction. i tried to answer that question. so that was just to explain the context of what we were looking at. and other things i would like to mention but first and foremost, to understand
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what was the genesis of these two organizations? the old guard was open to the decisions but they are looking for opportunities. slip is of what is taking place in the country. and who really believed that presences something they had to fight?
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and that was there view and that is the tribal identity has led them to believe it is embedded in the mind set. and with my assessment with one subset that they try a to initiate into the mainstream. as they try to take control of the insurgent movement
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and one operates and some people believe that is happening. but i want to quickly explained for the old guard and the new taliban. but the pakistan a taliban unlike the others to be a with al qaeda with some very good studies coming off in recent years. and with those financial needs however said nature of
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that taliban equate that social media. in to be far more dangerous to they have moved far closer to al qaeda. but to date you could not explain that dynamic. and from what has taken place.
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with the pakistan the taliban but then it moves because of the pakistan a taliban. and in terms of that identity. but all who joined the ranks of the pack is danny taliban. so all you need to see that
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gen to be successfully adapted and then to have kept some of it with the new
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>> but first a couple of anecdotes from the experiences i have had. the prime minister was returning to pakistan from 95 through 96. but then when she was returning she just mentioned
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what is your thought of the security? in pakistan? many security officials had a consensus before it is you want me to be direct? she said absolutely and i said i like the event you will be assassinated. she said i know that but tell me something else that will save me. she knew that she was walking into a death trap. the militants were strong enough. but that radicalization is
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not only confined to the military camps by and large give them a chance or with the pashtun but having said that the discourse has changed so why is this a militant group a good idea like isis? but then if you followed the attack that evening there
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were questions with the of publications to see benazir bhutto. and i made the case firms that taliban. is she wrote back and then she explained to the effect these are the of radical elements of the
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establishment. but by and large with those elements with the grant jihad but later i had the opportunity to ask the question to the chief and people criticized a lot today but i must say i had a great experience talking to him. it as one of the best times ahead bin to the office
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and.was beautiful. but i said the afghani people who can benefit? so i mentioned that to him. some of those people were sitting at a very long dinner table in he almost
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jumped to his feet i should have frame did differently but what he said to me to anything you want to but do not say we are stupid. but in that conversation the same evening karzai told her there will be his assassination attempt. but my view is the intelligence was held the evidence with her vehicle access but if you'd understand the policy.
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there is some thinking in that i have the honor and i see them as very bright. 99%. even pashtun are convinced the problem of afghanistan is facing is absolutely convinced but what historically have they done for them? but then general perceptions with all the different intelligence and politics
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somewhere behind that aside so it was of very delicate attempt with that objective assessment. . .
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which is coming up as well. [inaudible] many important members of the organization some of them have a general viewpoint about how it is extremely predictable because they view through the jihad and i have seen that critical view.
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this means we are talking about their regional issues. they are in pakistan in the tribal area and some there is a good book that has come out if you're interested but it is one which was always framed as the tablet and. there were some groups in the organization which were not critical by the way but they had never attacked pakistan despite
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the members of attacks against pakistan so those were framed as good tablet and. the haqqani group was one of them pursuing the interests because ointerestbecause of thee indian interest in afghanistan and it is its own region, some right into some wrong. and some wrong. they don't want the situation because everything is an ethnic war and they were using the areas they have their own interest. they wanted to invest more in afghanistan for historical reasons. it's based on this perspective. however, some have come to that in the last ten years the most interesting thing to me during my study during the war on
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terror it was done at a level that no one in most of the meetings in the pakistan and the united states the issue of tablet and never came up that this would be mentioned and that is a very important issue to look into. why in the insurgents. they are both operating and expanding and thinking and the group's in 2006 and 2007. however, to state that name in the context of the regional what
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they found out and i'm extremely thankful to the military officers, some of whom had the honor to have the students and talk about that with something important i should have mentioned in the beginning that all im seeing in the book are not linked or related to the j job. but i heard in pakistan this is not people that were working with me. i realize that in one case the general told me and i asked you let this opportunity and you're the only one that allowed me to mention his name or what happened in 2009. he said to me we have lost
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hundreds and thousands of army officers. if i told them that they are killing the army base that i won't be able to face my soldiers and i trust that very much. they said in 2009 you had no briefing whatsoever on the other books that are not to be seen. however they realize there is a difference between the operations come good to divide the military. the way they operated was not in coordination with or even in cooperation with the mainstream pakistan army and that is a point also with which shows some insight into this issue.
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so there were people in pakistan who were sympathetic to the group. there were many instances one of the generals that commanded the force said to me the frontier kept. they are moving on the other side and nor did he have the capability or the training to take them on because this tribal area and the first unit that landed in 2004 and also was a
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major background and desert storm when he landed at their people respond and however in the tribal area they cannot speak [inaudible] and tha that we'd been there asn outside force and they couldn't communicate in that area. for many the army is as much an enemy. and one case they were interrogating them at the time.
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they said where is this coming from? of course. they said [inaudible] and this is again there have been many such instances but a total lack of preparation. but the attempts made in pakistan were not given proper briefings. now i will go to the second point. the first is the regional tension etc. and about tribal belt forget about americans on the other side of the international forces and the intelligence was a new word. the second difference is between crying and terror.
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a new phenomena above the word all that you need to do to be a big pakistani taliban through the kidnappings etc. is of course longer than the one that i have come and you need to know two or three versus. it can be green or white or black. you can claim to be a religious person if this is a new phenomena. simply we had the opportunity to travel above the major cities in pakistan and right in the middle of course there was a video shown and the person sitting next to me had his own tape recorder in which there was a recorder of a scholar that was
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bigoted and narrowminded. he started and you could see no one walked up to this person including myself personally in the statement because we knew exactly what he was doing. it was his mission for us not. but simply what he wanted us to hear about as i have seen in my lifetime and in the last 15 years a little bit out of touch but the parts that i had left there 2000 i remember that is another change that has happened in society, and many of these elements would be challenged at the person that is claiming to
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be a religious part would not be challenged or affected because they can come out and say you're committing blasphemy. from such and such that phenomena has something very important for which no military in the world of [inaudible] and it's also the major source of funding caused by the taliban even in islamabad. this discussion just a week ago and once 15 years ago what they are doing in the islamabad area she said the two law-enforcement in the last week both of them were stolen from outside.
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if the police chief of the city -- and this is one of them and the commissioner said over the chief of police and it was 15, 20 years before that had happened and they said we have no clue what could have been. so, to expect the structure is capable in afghanistan by the way and the traditional law enforcement agency. so it's also many criminal organizations that are operating into the same in afghanistan the forces realizforce is realize te area they realize that they are one repeatedly.
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it was a member of the construction party but it's not necessary. you bomb a school everyone would see the taliban has done that. i am not trying to say that the phenomena is linked to all of these issues in a significant fashion that all the different factors the claim being the most important one was in the big fashion and for example they were unable to unearth the training school in the flaws here is an area. this was meant to teach you how to rob a bank. and they were unable to unearth that into carboxy.
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in the state the frontier state they were able to create but there is no international bord border. they also identified that but it's starting around that line and they operate in a different session to be able to control and stop is impossible. so to find out what the other teams are and i will just conclude by my purpose was to help understand the answers in
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the end to say what in my view can result in the issue? to shorten the critical issues one is -- and this is one that i've written a lot about is the law-enforcement infrastructure which never happened in afghanistan. it's great to have the forces in afghanistan but it is in the paramilitary force and it would have led to the support of the civilian law-enforcement infrastructure that is meant in the rule of law so you make a very clear choice when you
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invest in getting the country then you make an investment in turning the judge. one of my students is still there. she was the first one that told me about how great she said i'm going back because many are now opting to become loyal in afghanistan and in the last three years i think competitively among the students in the system i think eight or nine of them.
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in the law-enforcement infrastructure both afghanistan and pakistan and belief me it is going to be much cheaper than the other projects that we have conducted a. i think that it has taken root in. without coming you are not going to find the way. but it's fitting to the modern-day southeast. the reason sectarianism has become so divisive is that it is one factor in the militancy and extremism. in my book i explain the tradition from the tribal belt we had an opportunity to go
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which is the dynamic that is very different historically, very pluralistic, very inconclusive and very open. i think the reasons for those in south asia for ten provide a bridge for the shield in so many of the other groups that come together is because unless you have the complete utilization anyou will not be altogether to phenomena or the civilian law-enforcement. thank you very much. [applause] >> to pushing in that direction by asking [inaudible]
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but also in fact they have in operation to have one place or another as it is probably a reality so, you know, when we look at the region and we try to look at the consequences and when we look at the potential solution, what can we say about this because what is beyond the
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series of the localized and it would be but at the same time you mentioned at the integrated into someone which is beyond us. that. so, can you give your take on whether it is likely to lead or not? >> to begin with, indeed come it was the idea of that element that inspired them to think about a group such as telegram. telegram. so, in terms of ideas, in terms of the very phenomenon and the dynamic that is a different story how they created a how much of that was indigenous. but it was primarily an afghan phenomena and they were inspired and took them both away in the
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2001 in the whole operation after these attacks. the international campaign in the region began at that time and "the new york times" and "washington post" or any other paper and try to find that you will not find it. the first time the book came to me was in 2007. to operate with so many others who were on the same. if not had an operationa operatl than at least of an ideological level because in this context it comes from the sunni sector but it's become so dependent that the source is this activism movement which now is very progressive but they are middle of the road but somehow they
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were found and they are also inspired by the same phenomenon. they are the ones that were funded as well. so, the commonality between both of the sides of the caliban is when inspiration. second, in terms of that because that is the books that have that kind of framework now we come to the third level of the operations where they are working and there are very few instances. i will give you one example. there was one officer who actually go and meet the family who was the one who trained and was seen as a godfather.
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he'd paid a very important part. he was sent because he was wearing a big turbine and was having a -- stanek he was sent to at least go and talk to the caliban and they had gone from the town event and they kept a good relationship but not on the ground necessarily. thethey had moved to pakistan. some of the pakistani military go and talk about become of him and tell them that we have evidence that they are getting funding from india. so they had arranged that message because they had ordered not to.
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they kept them for over a year i think and despite the best efforts you think they never talked to say are the legends? there was another case the joint chief of staff was captured and they stored the interviews and tried their best to tell the taliban we need this person back. they never listened. by saying is yes you're right. however, what we have come to know is when the military moves into the north of this area they have unearthed a center so on the face of it maybe they would disconnect in terms of cooperation issues but because
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of this and because of the commonality. it was bound to happen that they would come together and you will see the reason this is the failure they always thought they can have some level with all of the caliban and some argue that they come and fight. they were using the similar logistics and people were jumping from one group to another. so, sometime in the last few years they were disconnected and operating in a different level.
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but they are bound to come together more so especially when the forces from that site go and then they finish because the original inspiration and the logical framework would bring them together. >> please introduce yourself -- >> [inaudible] from washington, d.c.. thank you for the talk. it was very and lightening. my question is who is financing the caliban and where is the money coming from? >> they are different answers. we have so many studies but a major chunk of the money is coming from opium coming and you havcome and youhave the differef the international forces blaming different people. you would get a different answ
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answer. but the tragedy is that from the american perspective it was haphazard and very well-meaning with the experts that i think those that planned its planned in a different profession and because of that timeline no one went after in any strong fashion. it was a very small effort. the producers knew the only way they could succeed in the function is because you need to get them in the caliban and be on the ground fighting between the insurgents in afghanistan are getting a major chunk of their money from opium. there is no doubt.
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second the wikileaks and i can taltalk bout about it but what i can briefly mention is there is a lot of evidence that there was funding in the gulf area through this. there are many sources when this came out. when the money is coming from the other countries they realize in fact there was a lot of money first being generated in kabul by the political class and sent to the gulf and then coming back into shape of investments in something else. but a lot of that i think was benefiting as well. the answer is slightly differe
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different. this is what the authors are said to me. there is this that has taken a life of its own. you can start a small -- you need no license, no registration of any sort if you want to build a mosque or a center of any so sort. the point is this political economy also gives the funding to the phenomena. ..
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>> and then they found indian money and currency which is not a strong argument because anybody can but what is the extent it is for another day but generally with some of the members that i met is from
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india with the militant groups and having written about intelligence opposition but to bring anything spiritual but in this case, i have met many people, the senior members but of course, this is the major onset. and of course, as stunned as i was for us it is important to understand there are people in pakistan who are generally convinced whether diversion i have no way to
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have that empirical evidence but people are convinced it is at least one segment of its. because then those people believe from those arab countries. >> international crisis center. as you know, and thank you very much for that
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discussion and i look forward to read the book air of the group has shared the views strengthening fell law-enforcement is fundamental. we also have seen the work that has begun and i appreciate your assessment through the funding for civilian law enforcement has it done the right kinds of things? you did not take it to the next up -- step. when do we see that moving fully with that rule of law in pakistan so law enforcement extends into that area? and one area i have questions, you indicated a separation between the
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pakistan army and. >> host: team but the leadership of the isi comes out of the army structure and moves back at some point. and most of their own assessments would be they are not separate entities or policies but a single policy and the groups that comes out of that single policy one example might be you can explain why we have not seen much in the way of the victims from the north? >> looking at what the upright -- the crisis group is doing and the thesis by
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producing those extensive solid research based publications so thank you very much. i think it was of great idea of the last sentence in my book is the best thing in my assessment that united states has done for pakistan is the program with that safety department it has taken a long time for the policy shift to have taken place but the new generation
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i do have some friends sitting here but for those who have graduated in the next couple of years. and may be the largest coming this is a product product, however in case of law enforcement not much has been done. because unlike the of military with those six principles with the demarcation of responsibilities, when it comes to police there is no special office. anyone person is that a very
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small the fall. but maybe more funding in there is a history culprit but i think dan this is the idea it is intervention not that i support that but if you have to come up with is the first thing that you do? the difference between the roads is to cross and then i am extremely careful. but otherwise you cannot do that. so thank you very much and thank you for reminding me.
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and the major finding to look at the situation that there are no cops are police in that area. like going into mainstream pakistan aha -- to go back from terrorism but with that last point with military intelligence is easy to see the mainstream of the military but they're very focused and what i found out recently is that clarity of thinking. in fact, when i asked in
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general he said we will squeeze them and go after them. and that leading politician said something to the effect that 40 people were dead. this was conducted by those who were pushed out of pakistan. some believe bin constant security and eventually they pushout so they make life hell. but others have done it and are recognized the like that pakistan a taliban.
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but it is very coordinated but it is very strongly to bring them to a new century. then they are conducting an operation in south afghanistan. but this time around in my assessment they are being pushed out. they are not provided. now with my understanding it is late in the game but they recognize the position now it is difficult. but i honestly hope that isi
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has also realized this at what has taken place to report to the army chief but there are operators santander's and contractors but that military leadership is not lost. >> i promise to be brief i and a professor in trade with snowballing answer. >> this has been leading up many years. you mentioned with the questions that are debated
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with kennedy's killing. which is distilled debated. -- is still debated. >> but through pluralism and enforcement and enhancement enhancement, but the chief -- of forces in punjab. based on your recommendation my question and one dash my question is in most of the cases they became prime ministers by accident. if you become prime minister
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by accident, pragmatically what specifically are the three or four steps you would do to bring said instability and terrorism to a close? >> thanks very much. you are right to about the issues. the reason i would really like them to clearly investigate is because in the absence of a very clear answer it could become more popular and those who think they can kill and get away with it. as we have seen in the recent past seeing in the
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national party, led many of those leaders there was a christian leader in one part of the parliament that was the member of the cabinet because they said the fact your the tragedy is there was not one single imam that was willing to stand to the the prayers for him. including the official imam. not the one from moscow.
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the recent but the chance for region as the institution withfgxam
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to ensure that to his just trivial all lowe's the curriculum. that is part of any textbook. to go to the education reform and then i am convinced and the leadership is also convinced you cannot get to those groups until
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they come to the amicable responses. and then to be convinced in the political leadership to see these things as the bright light for pakistan. >>. >> i have two short questions for you. the taliban has an excellent analysis. i have to find it paradoxical that they take large territories but the
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posture is significant from what it was. and it was well intended so i find it a little hard to believe. my second question and what is the long-term effect so to isolate those bugs? for the taliban? >>. >> you are absolutely right. we have a real crisis in -- a crisis again so it can
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conduct military action. in those very good things that have happened from the u.s. effort in those from the united states frankly and that they owe it to especially the united states but however is the case elections are not conducted to allow that to happen. but with the bandage around their finger at the hospital
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but the thinkers were cut. but it shows how clearly the picture has come. but then in many areas both in some of the others in terms of joining together has categorically said we don't believe in democracy. and in this case as it is with american intelligence but i was talking to one of the gentleman and i am reminded the number of acts
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in afghanistan by the taliban of what we know of from what we know of but overall to have a successful election so credit should go to secretary kerry and others to tell them they have to figure out a national unity government. to even collect more tax.
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and that is a big reality but with the taliban the problem is much larger. put on the progressive political party in some ways had a more devastating impact than the taliban on the government. so that is a short-term solution. >> >> faqs so much. press that the department of defense and strategic studies but two quick questions would is the recommendations?
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as much as i remember there was no long discussion and that efforts for the tradition. and what are the concrete steps they can take for the nomenclature? talk about the tradition? with an equal amount of resistance to that. sometimes it is a lot of other steps through the education reform. that is too much better benefits.
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but you talk about the taliban in pakistan for quite some time. so what exactly was the reaction? and what is the sense of victory? and it seems the reaction shows have been within them and wouldn't that create that within pakistan? >> i mention that in my chapter three or four. this is obvious from the
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book that is the very close friend of pakistan. there is simply no doubt about it. but we know for a fact that the majority of the taliban even recently what who was killed a fine leader was of because of the pakistan military. but however it was really angry at pakistan. but it keeps them that with
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that source in this case. but then those families and at that time pakistan should have stood by them it stop them from being bombed in that capacity. but so as the taliban with the forces before 9/11 with that northern alliance. but that is also why they ever need that to go after
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that pakistan a taliban. so your question is very valid. but without profound idea but from outside the view of islam it would be anything else. . .
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because they never forced anyone to convert and so that's why i think the number of people i don't want the political support but i think that the soviet tradition of the great mistakes provide the bridge for different to come together. we often say it is the success of why the society offers the scope. this is a respectable human beings as it will be. if anyone would try to choreograph it for political support we know there have been
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attacks and totally unprecedented in the history. never, ever before that it started happening. why? two reasons. one, the different there is part of bigotry but those who people know that challenge to the orthodoxy into the conservatism and the middle mindedness they are fearful so we have to be very careful. thank you for raising that point. >> i would like to speak at
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daily kos [inaudible] i would like to invite all of you to attend the session this coming monday with the -- that are and all of you think you. [applause] >> is there a nonfiction author or book you would like to see featured on booktv? e-mail booktv at c-span.org or post on the wall facebook.com/booktv.
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>> next after words with guest host tomlinson. this week the first book, lynn sai-- tomlinson hill. he founded the impact of slavery continues. the houston chronicle columnist found that while they were former slave owners, a former nfl running back as a defendant of the former slaves. this program is about an hour. >> so, chris, tomlinson hill. what made you want to write that took? >> guest: i grew up learning about tomlinson hill. i had never been to tomlinson hill but my grandfather would always say we had a plantation on

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