tv Forum Focuses on Political Unrest in Venezuela CSPAN July 25, 2017 6:27am-8:00am EDT
that is the problem. not allow the government to play games. >> translator: okay come on the topic of new sanctions. yeah, well we will see -- we don't see the process of the oil sales the venezuelan people. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: the expectations are the maternal of the -- they are higher than places like theory and they are
the worst in the country. we are seeing at the dominance arise that had been eradicated decades ago. people are dying because they are not receiving treatment for their chronic illnesses. none of the oil profits benefit the people. they are going to the regime. they are being used to buy support. they are being used to buy the weapons of oppression. they are being used to kill venezuelan and true owners of the resources at backcountry the regime is using for a salve. so, i don't see the oil profits going to the people.
i do believe that there are other options in play, that there are targeted sanctions. sanctions targeting high-level authorities within the regime. that would be one step prior to general sanctions. an analysis would need to be made of the collateral damage that could be caused by a general sanction and further, you'd need to determine on the community. in the sanctions. and again what might be some of the collateral damage on the
people themselves. so that is an analysis that needs to be completed first. once that analysis has been made , we need to start with individual sanctions. so that chain of command that has caused the 100 deaths of protesters, and the minister of the interior, the national guard, the minister minister of defense, the supreme court, the national electoral council. there are top authorities that are guilty of torture in the prisons. those people should be said jack to individual sanctions -- subject to individual sanctions. we have to penalize those options. we are taking an important institutional step in whether
crimes committed towards the regime, particularly torture, could be such a crime under the rome statute and therefore could be tried in the international court. so that is an institutional step we will be taking today and will likely announce tomorrow. thank you, mr. secretary general for your remarks and for sharing with us your perspective. [speaking in native tongue] [applause] >> translator: thank you. >> i would like to take this opportunity to announce the first in a tangible product as part of our venezuela strategy. truly understanding or better yet acting on the depth of the crisis requires adjusting some of the horrible numbers coming out of the country. our venezuela tracker is a one
step comprehensive source on economic, political, social and financial crises. it is often unattainable, they get reliable data that we have gathered. andrea morte's, both in and out of venezuela. this is an ongoing effort and i invite all of you to go to atlantic council.org backslash venezuela tracker to find the latest numbers on what people are living through every day in a run hemisphere. today we are launching a beta version with financial and economic data on topics ranging from gdp to inflation and exchange rates. we think francisco rodriguez on our panel for us all. we will look in depth at poverty, hunger and health situations in venezuela. thank you for help among others and not effort.
this is something we will continuously update because they want to provide a clear picture for the entire world, but also offer a tool for organizations, governments, civil society, media and others working hard to help the citizens of venezuela and helped it difficult to get reliable real-time data. at a time when the government is keeping hostage, want to do exactly the opposite. i'm going to take a moment and introduce our panel and and ask them to take the stage. our first panelist now is transcendent, mexican ambassador of the organization for american states. having assumed his role in may 2016, he's a diplomat in a number of positions including ambassador to austria, geneva and he is also one of the foremost leaders at oas on the situation in venezuela, someone who fundamentally understand
what is happening in the country and is taking a leadership role in that regard. the chief economist at many are raised investment bank and broker dealer prior to joining the bank he served as during senior economist at bank of america merrill lynch, also the venezuelan budget office and i'm thrilled that frances is here because he really has his fingers on the economic situation in venezuela. also the executive director for the center for justice and peace in venezuela with the human rights violations and provide legal counsel to many of the people who are being held hostage by the government. special focus on women's rights. she previously worked in venezuela where she researched human rights protection. also got up at 2:00 in the morning to be able to come here from venezuela because the fact
the middle of the night makes it more likely they will leave the country. thank you for doing that. our moderator today is the u.s. news direct your tree and five -- director gustau alegret. he served as minister of commerce and tourism and has mentioned the outside. we are also thankful for his team for the partnership in our venezuela after by a whole host of other things. i would like to welcome our three panelists to the stage. [applause] >> well, thank you everyone for
coming. this has been done. just a couple of questions. if you want to follow and continue the conversation in her social media, use #venezuela. the media prior to this event. it is going to start in 15, 20 minutes and then we will be open for a q&a at the end. what we expect is a conversation about that, not a single individual speeches. thank you. and we would like to start with ambassador luis alfonso de alba gongora. you are a diplomat. you know how difficult sometimes it is with good diplomacy. you are in a position today with a very critical topic, which is
venezuela. mexico has positions for the most prudent position to a more active push position. what has changed for mexico to take this stage? >> thank you very much for being here this morning. first of all, i'm not so sure we have changed. i think if you look into the history of diplomatic relations, mexico has been a very act of country, which human rights, democracy, central american conflict, the situation in chile , just to mention a few topics. particularly since 93 on human rights, we were eager to make it
clear that you cannot have nonintervention violate the human rights. >> cuba also violates the human rights. >> is a different situation. we have pushed cuba to do much better with human rights. but you have to make clear that the main difference, the level of legitimacy if you want which cuba has been placed by the u.s. we are the only country with the suspension of cuba. this is not the same situation today because you have obviously not only commitment of human rights and democracy but the democratic chapter, you have a
minority of negotiations exposing themselves with the approval. so for us, to go back to this very important and look at ourselves in the mirror. the situation in mexico and the situation in any other country needs to be compared because we do not want that situation. the populous state government and the regime, lack of respect of institution to develop democracy, human rights. we need to protect that. >> you have worked in justice and democracy. i would say you are denouncing a very critical topic for the
venezuelan government. could you help us with how dangerous is the situation today in venezuela? they make thank you or the opportunity to be here but the situation and to try to explain what has happened in venezuela. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: with my role, i come from the civil society, human rights defender and our work has been with the victims where there is a rule of law. so it is a legal matter applying the protections that the state and we are in a different
situation. people are seeking a humanitarian crisis. we see we have an emergency on our hand. in venezuela, there are no research for dealing with this crisis is not type not a crisis, it's an emergency. so it is important to use the right term of what is happening. now it is humanitarian because venezuelans are dying. those statistics are so shocking. that is the reality we are living. we see a child dying of malnutrition because their mother can't by mail or a child dying because they can't get an antibiotic or people because they can't find a dialysis
machine. people who can't fight insulin or get high blood pressure medicine. my mother couldn't get medicine that used to be so easy to find anywhere else. 200,000 people have chronic illnesses that for anyone else aren't a problem because you go to the pharmacy to buy your medicine. but we can't. you said you come firm civil societies. so what impact did chavez have been the civil society? because it is a permanent crisis and that aid is that com and they don't benefit and doesn't support for the regime a road?
people pushing for a way out with people to join opposition. what are the official government then makes it so complicated? government hasn't been known to control the food over medicine, over everything. so we heard about the separate mechanisms that they use and now of course this manipulation that they are using with the constitutional assembly. they buy people support. there are veiled threats. we hope that you and your family will support me if anyone doesn't support them, and they are persecuted. so, a lot of the support that
the government does enjoy has to do with the persecution that is undermining human rights and civil society that is defending human rights, willing to do our work no matter who the government is. this government has to be a human rights violator. we want democracy, but we are unprotected. we have a guns in our organization -- the victims in our organizations. in may 2016 returned to the supreme court that hasn't even been accepted, has been admitted. there is absolutely no protection in place. we receive no response. >> what percentage of support you think there is for nicholas maduro? >> i think you can see it was slow, pretty low.
>> well, of course. because people don't have a sense of normalcy. and what we want of course is to exercise our right. >> will help us to understand the magnitude of the situation. >> i will start out by giving you some numbers to talk about this type of reality, which is at a very basic level, human tragedy. it is definitely between 2012 and 2016 by 20%. that is a decline in per capita income. this he would look at an additional contraction from five to 10%. if you add that in, we will have a per capita income of close to 35 and 40%. let's put that in magnitude.
there are only six countries in the world in this century that have had this magnitude of economic depression. we talk about syria and the republic, iraq, united arab emirate, all but one of them are countries that have been at war. so is the type of contraction we see associated with armed conflicts. if you look just at latin americans, there are only two countries that compete with this magnitude of contraction. one of them is nicaragua during the 1970s, also during the insurgency and the other one is during hyperinflation to pass through probably this year what will become the largest economic history, at least in reported that american economic history. so yes, this is a huge
contraction. obviously, it has to do with economic management. it has to do with politics take. and it also has to do with the decline in oil revenue. these two facts interact. venezuela back in 2012 exported $98 billion. oil prices fell the master at exported $28 billion. that's the decline in oil production because it is to be able to maintain production. the other one is libya that also gone to a political product. there is this interaction between mismanagement and less resources. but there is something after the debate. the evidence from the past four years is invade venezuela has left external resources, people suffer. they have declined significantly over the past 40 years.
i expect the venezuelan revenue will continue to decline and then there will be a continued economic contraction and there will be continued human suffering associated with it. >> secretary maduro mentioned sanctions. what will be someone who is an economist, those collateral effects over the situation. >> at think it could be two issues. we have to be very careful. let me explain something about the structure of the economy. 95% of venezuelan exports are oil. they are directly controlled at the venezuelan state. what that means is everything venezuela does for the rest of the world is done through the state with the resources the state has access to.
it's a relatively difficult problem. imagine we were talking in other countries a private sector it to somehow integrated the world. if you have a private sector that generates revenue in a public sector, you can cut the lifeline to the government without cutting the lifeline to people. in the case of venezuela, we import food. that's not only verifiable, the only way in which things come into the dollars that the government has. so, venezuela imports food with the dollars from oil. if you cut those, you are going to cut the resources the government has to undertake oppression. you are so going to cut resources the government has been ordered to undertake import. it's a very difficult problem to to find these sanctions. what i'm concerned if they have been humanitarian crisis and emergency. if they fall by another
$10 billion in imports come down by another $10 billion, this humanitarian crisis and emergency could turn into a catastrophe. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: especially by concerned by sanctions in a human rights sense because the corruption and drug trafficking also concerned what can affect the people. let's imagine that this is a building where we all live and there is one where the family is fighting, the mother, the mother is sitting the kids in the husband is taking the wife. we can say we don't live in not one apartment so it doesn't matter. but you have to say something about it. but if we cut through water, who will suffer from it? everybody in the building.
so that solidarity at an international level regarding institutions that should be solidarity in collaboration with civil society should be done jointly with any action taken for venezuela. >> should the international community imposed sanctions on the oil exploration? [inaudible] [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: i will answer in spanish. it's a more delicate answer a question because it is more complex. so it's a possibility to do at the international community level except for that security council. it would have to be the security council that took action. it is almost impossible that
something such as certain other sanctions would be approved by the united nations in the general assembly. that would be an option, but i think that the question of whether it would be a good or a bad idea is most important that it has not been what we are trying to do and has not been led by the u.s. this has been a collective vision that has evolved internationally and has tried to find diplomatic ways to solve the problem. it was perceptive to do that democratic charter and suspend venezuela and all the states that no, not yet. we have to first do everything possible at the diplomatic
level. and then, we went with this extraordinary assembly in consultation and the answer is exactly that we were trying to send a message to the venezuelans that we are still looking towards some type of mediation or something like that. this apart from the fact we don't want to hurt the population anymore with sanctions. the sanctions should not he only considered economically. they should be taken into account in a political light because there could be a political sanction, in exclusion to know what is happening or what could happen at a certain time if there were more embassies that left venezuela. so there were a group of measures that could be taken before any of the sanctions
could be applied or should be applied. we will talk about this next week at the oas. what are they concerned about specifically at this time? i'll go a little bit to cancun. it was a rupture and so it doesn't work anymore. it doesn't help venezuela. we don't need to. the rest of the country's don't need it. what was not accepted -- and therefore fractured to meet you there went against the sanction to a project proposed. so that was something sad, but it was important. today we will try to include the subject once again and we will
continue to work as such. yes, we are exercising pressure so that they do it within the oas but the diplomatic pressure on venezuela and led by a mexico, colombia, peru, and the united states and canada. so this exercise going back to your question on sanctions i think that it should be dealt with at the level of the g4 at team. there should be cored native action, send unilateral. i am not against any, but perhaps the economic measures. >> there are some numbers. -- >> so you asked about the popularity approval of the
government. there are some numbers around 20%. it's an interesting number because it's not as low as you would expect. there is a very interesting debate. is this intimidation? you do know that in the past some of them have been electorally successful so that there is some part of this. we also know that for example in the poll numbers, hugo chavez comes out as having relatively high approval ratings. they might protect the government of maduro, but they do carry at least a good memory of president chavez. the conditions were good during this time, but that is the political reality in terms of transition. i also want to point out because you have a very unpopular government. and the election itself would be
wanted to show what you want to do and obtain. the violet focuses or episodes are generated by the government who are trying to repress these protests. so the citizenry is activating, mobilizing. of course, these violations of human rights are a message to stop this, but we are still active and we are still going to fight democratically to obtain international solidarity and all our compatriots, brothers and sisters in latin america, so that they help us with something that we cannot wait any longer for and takes lives everyday. >> go into the last topic that you mentioned, which was, the
g4s a very solid group. you need more votes, the necessary votes as much as possible that to move forward with solutions with the organization of american states. taking into consideration that in cancun it is bleeding, too, what are going to be the next step of the g4 team to gain those votes are at least half of them? >> let me speedy if you want to the spanish you can. >> the atlantic council expressing me to use my english. [laughing] english.laugh. >> translator: if you give me the option i will use my finish in. i believe and it is something where discussing within the g14, i don't think that worth
exercising pressure on the caribbean. it is very clear which countries are on our side, the six that were in favor of the resolution. we are grateful and we want to protect them and help them because they are being pressured. wish just forget about getting the other ones. you won't get the votes then. it won't matter if we are right. we have the political weight, the first example would be next wednesday. we have the permanent council so that we put this on the agenda,, the g14 what get there and we will debate it and if we don't get the votes that we need, we will still discuss it because there are other points on the program. and i don't care if we speak of it as a priority or what it is but we'll speak of it.
and it will cost them. there has to be consequences to the reactions of the caribbean and the consequences should be suffered by those who voted against or abstained. there are national interest and we recognize then but what you cannot do is go into a negotiation and then not comply with the boat. that you should not account for practice was negotiation that happened in groups, and there were two sets of negotiators and there was something that was wrong and it should be made clear that there's some people that were not faithful to the word, what they had promised. and to think the more important issue is that we will act independently of the vote. why? because the oas is an independent organization.
someday we will change it. >> translator: ongoing as something pretty delicate. after tha the filters of resolun in cancun, it wasn't a failure. the press calls it a failure and diplomacy tries to manipulate the media, right? [applause] we had almost everybody on our side. the analysis that were done later were that catacomb depends on venezuelan oil. they are hostage to the drug traffickers and corruption. venezuela knows some of these cases and, therefore, controls of them. what do you agree or disagree with? >> translator: i think there is an economic reliance but also there is some on this gratitude on the part of many of them because venezuela, during many years, had a solidarity policy
towards the development of many of those islands that other countries did not have. so that includes the u.s. but includes mexico and others that had sporadic presence in the caribbean and that has a lot to do with it. the drug trafficking issue undoubtedly has some repercussions but it's more isolated. i think in a general sense everybody acknowledges, and there is the issue of oil but also in great measure the projection of an integral develop a packet that we've never understood but venezuela did understand. so they tried to articulate it and give it a certain sense, but that something we could correct. i don't see why we're not doing it because it is not great amounts of dollars. it's more political will that's
involved. >> who do you address the question. >> this question is for francisco. there are a lot of reports say a lot of capital in your firm comes from the government and the dictatorship or i don't like to speculate to go to the source. are you aware of any capital from the narco dictatorship? if so, is it helping regime maintaining our? >> that is completely false. all of our financial statements are audited. you can download from the webpage. that is completely false. >> next. [inaudible] >> is any firm accepts money from the government, yes, it would be helping the government to stay in power, yes. >> okay. let's go over there, that woman,
please. [inaudible] >> use your voice. >> use my voice. okay, i am from the wilson center. [speaking spanish] >> translator: my question goes to ambassador. if the block actions and all these efforts have not worked, what other countries in the region waiting for to take action and act unilaterally, and perhaps help the venezuelan people? [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: i have a different idea of whether this has worked or failed, and i will go back to about a year ago before the secretary-general
presented his first report. you couldn't even discuss this at the oas, that now it is being discussed frequently and all these efforts are being made and some resolutions have been approved and others and no. the april 3, the press was saying that they had not obtained the 17 votes. but it was perhaps ignorance, not that they were being mean, the press. the proposal i made at the time was to adopt it without voting, and when you adopt resolution without votes, what you count is that there is opposition, and there was no opposition. in fact, that resolution was accepted by consensus which makes it even more valuable that these are technicalities. so going back to what is being done or what will they do, i think that this matter is before
the oas, within the oas, and what we are doing in helping the venezuelans is something that is always been considered but it's not just being done at the oas. it is being done bilaterally and in subgroups within the region. the president got together and the minister of foreign relations, and yesterday the ministers of formulation from mexico got together and they discussed the matter. we are also discussing possibilities from other types of actions. the strength of this exercise, it lies in understanding that there is a collective vision of a process that should take place. if people believe that's enough, because you cannot force the government in this case, the venezuelan government, to act, then i think they are wrong.
i think that pressure has to continue at that level. it will not be military pressure. we don't have coercive measures to use. there are no governments or supranational institutes that would do this come nor would it be desirable for them to exist. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: you speak of some types of things that are being found out where there will be sanctions or not. the problem that you described above venezuela, and he did so very well, you compared historically, isn't this the product something worse than sanctions, the venezuelan people will not suffer because the u.s.
imposes sanctions or another government, but what the government has done with the oil industry in venezuela, because i don't know if people assign responsibility to the government for hunger, for the violence if they are speaking of this economic contraction. and that it was mismanagement of the income and that so wouldn't it be absurd at this point in history that one little bit more of pressure will harm venezuela when the harm has already been done? [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: that's an excellent question. a first-place, yes, it has been measured, but the government does come i'm sorry, the people do blame the government and
that's why they are not popular. so it hasn't gone down as much as the economic crisis of 2012. what is my fear of the sanctions? and this is a controversial moment, but it's important to clarify this. in 2003 president chavez had 30% approval. now maduro as 20. not too far from there, and the opposition is mobilizing to have some type of election in venezuela so that they can change the government. and there was a fundamental change that happened in 2002 in december. venezuelan people said since we cannot force of this referendum, let's have a general indefinite strike. and that happened for about two months. it was indefinite in time because they weren't able to achieve their purpose so they
stop distracting. so that event marked a point in sinking of the people. that's when chavez gained some points of approval. so the reason i'm afraid and what i'm afraid of is i have a great deal of fear that when it has been very clear that intel now, what we have to do with the governments of maduro is to leave them alone because when you leave them alone they will d do the harm they are doing and people will realize it is their fault. so there are other factors that complicate the situation that might give credibility to the story that maduro is trying to tell. that it is all the external factors that are harming the people, et cetera. that's what i think it is important to take into account
and measure what the effect of public opinion is. all i'm saying is there is an important risk, i have no doubt that the main responsibility of what is happening in venezuela has to do with the government policies. but the risk exists that it sanctions are imposed, they might be used by the government to reinforce this perception that it isn't the government but actions against the government that are hurting them. >> over there, and the second one over here. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: my question is to ambassador luis. no, i am from venezuela. i live in washington but i just am venezuela. i don't work for the embassy, i've just from venezuela. my question has to do with what is your perception within the
oas, because a as a venezuelan d part of civil society, i see that any change perceived as a change, positive change, of action by the government has meant that the pressure has less effect and then it's not talk about, somebody says, well, at least they did this, and then the pressure is relieved a bit. so my question is, if the venezuelan government in this case nicolas maduro, does away with the assembly, what would be the level of commitment of the g14 to continue exercising pressure? so that that doesn't mean the countries but the guard down and just wait for something else before they put more pressure on
venezuela. >> and the other question over here and we will conclude with that. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: buenos dias. >> the u.s. is considering unilateral oil sanctions. >> who do you address the question? >> to the whole panel. just wait for the question. if the u.s. does go ahead with these unilateral oil sanctions, i'm curious to know how you feel, the panel feels this will impact any kind of international intervention that you're talking about, how it will affect or deepen the humanitarian/human rights crisis/emergency? and how impact in future recovery? you have to look them what's happening now to how they are on the path to recovery, that's allport. i would love to hear the thoughts of everybody on the panel. >> let's start with the first one.
[speaking in native tongue] >> translator: i don't think we're going to see that happen, and it would be wrong to assume that it would happen. unfortunately, the likelihood of them going ahead with -- is extremely high, but in either scenario i do agree that the pressure needs to remain applied. last year, you know, just because we saw president be released or what have you, the issues, underlying issues are still there and so the pressure needs to continue until there is a roadmap. if the general elections were chosen that would be the easiest path forward for addressing the problems.
the g14, in my opinion, needs to do, is to not worry about the pressure of the caribbean. i think that something that needs to be worked on more in the medium-term, and what we could do now is in addition to just, coordinating better with the u.s. and canada is to just work regionally, their support in europe and probably support from some asian states, perhaps even some african states. that's what we need to do. now, i don't think there would be in use in taking it to the united nations. i know the mechanics very well of what that would look like, and i think that they would be solidarity with venezuela expressed there, but what we need to do is send the signal that this concern is not limited
to the hemisphere. the hemisphere has a central role to play, but it is knocked by a lot of other people. >> that is a difficult questio. if the u.s. goes ahead with unilateral sanctions, the future of the recovery in terms of humanitarian crisis, in terms of democracy, in terms of international intervention -- >> let me talk about the economy. i do think there is a risky or that it will be lasting effect which make a recovery much more difficult to think about the oil sector, think about what sanctions, for example, impeding american firms doing what intel, they would entail things like chevron, slumber j, halliburton pulling out of venezuela. these are fundamental for the countries oil infrastructure. it would entail at the investment of -- there's no way
that they can do that without lifting sanctions which guarantees bond issues would have to pay that come the spot would have to come up with $4 billion cash so it doesn't have that. it would very likely force a default. we would probably go through, many funds would come in and try to sue in order to try to -- you could create a mess that would be very hard, it would take time. it would take a lot of time and a lot of effort to recover from that in a scenario of the transition here. >> two minutes and a half. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: i think that pressure and solidarity are going to be the most important thing. i think that's what's going to
have the best impact for venezuelans. we want peaceful transition to get out of this emergency. of course we're going to need to build a new country. and so we need support and action more than sanctions, which could hurt the venezuelan people. if individual sanctions, yes, for those who are responsible, but we don't want to keep dying of hunger. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: along the same lines as beatriz, i believe it's important to understand that if we want successful negotiations we need to have both parties at the table, which is very unlikely now owing to the level of polarization. but we believe in a peaceful
solution. we don't want to exacerbate the situation. we want to recognize whatever progress is made. i do think the constituent assembly is a step back, but we applaud the transfer to house arrest for lopez, as an example. that's what we need to do. just to wrap up. historically, sanctions, the secretary-general albert referred to the case of south africa. i would say they have a quite a very track record, and one would have to make a very careful analysis of what kinds could work and which ones might not, but we absolutely have to distinguish between multilateral sanctions and unilateral sanctions. i would be worried that unilateral sanctions would not
be done in a coordinated way with the countries that are working together, and we don't have the political will or the institutional forum to get multilateral sanctions. so i shouldn't say that as an ambassador, but i think regardless of what sovereign nations might decide would be good, that all nations take into account the impact, that any actions might have on the cohesion within the g14 so we don't find ourselves further away from the solution then we are now. >> a lot of effort to create -- you can visit the website, and thanks to the work of these and many others you will find critical information to understand how difficult the situation in venezuela.
with that information and with those explanations, today i think we understand better what is going on in this country. thank you very much. [applause] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] fcc chair ajit pai commissioners mignon clyburn and michael o'reilly on capitol hilw commissioners mignon clyburn and michael o'reilly on capitol hill today to testify on fcc operations and other priorities for the agency.
that's live at 10 a.m. eastern here on c-span2. later a look at u.s. policy towards north korea. that's a topic of a senate foreign relations subcommittee hearing with the acting assistant secretary of state for east asian and pacific affairs. live coverage at 2:3tions p. ot eastern on c-span3. you can also watch online at c-span.org or listen on the free 3.span radio app. >> sunday on q&a, mark boutin talks about his book "hue 1968". >> the battle shocked me because the saigon military command was so out of touch with the reality of what is happening in the street. they literally got a lot of young americans killed because what general westmoreland denied
that the city had been taken. it was a fact but he continued to deny it for new result on the battle was fought. and as a consequence would never concede the sheer number of enemy forces that were in the taron m. so small units of marines and troopers were being ordered to attack positions that were held by overwhelmingly superior enemy forces in entrenched position. >> sunday night at eight eastern on c-span's q&a. >> next australian foreign minister julie bishop speaks about u.s.