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tv   Mary Gray Ghost Work  CSPAN  October 10, 2019 6:38am-7:38am EDT

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mechanics. >> welcome, everybody. thank you very much for coming. i'm delighted to see you all here. i'm a faculty member at the economic department and one of the cochairs of the task force that was commissioned by the president a year ago last spring and the purpose of the task force is to sort of engage and come front the sense that many have bee in the labor market technology is changing rapidly to understand why people are anxious, to figure out how determined they shoul should bet is changing and what is
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different this time and what can we do to ensure that the coming era of change leads to not just productivity growth, but some degree of shared prosperity. and our focus is on the labor market on how we make the labor market function while for as many workers as possible, but that is where we see this as the opportunity and also the challenge. the lesson if you read the report from just last week one of the things we say is coming and i'm kind of critical on this with a well functioning labor market is the foundation for tha healthy middle class and the political system and without the foundation of opportunity and prosperity it is difficult for other things to work well. so our focus is on making the work work and that is why it is such an honor to have mary here today from the indiana university research talking about her book and here is a
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photograph and here is the actual person. just to give you a tiny bit of background, the earlier work has been on the sort of communication and use of technology of young people and how they use technology and other means to establish identities and to identify one another and maintain anonymity. she was recruited by two microsoft researchers to work on projects and once the air, got interested in the question of how artificial intelligence was often kind of hidden inside of the machine and so you can see kind of a uniformity there and this is the intermediation between machines and people involved in identity is masked
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or not completely obvious to the participants involved. i read her book and i thought it was quite mind blowing. .. >> how many of you have heard about the recent distance one - - decision in california? i hope that comes up in q&a. how many of you have ever received a 1099 or done contract work?
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wonderful. how many of you have a friend that has used a ridesharing app? [laughter] so we all have a stake in the conversation arguably so what i want to talk about today is a definition that we came up with the term not to describe particular kinds of work but a set of mixed jobs to describe the reorganization of the dismantlement of full-time employment. if you want to think of the conditions that are created with the opacity around workers contributions of on-demand wor work, so keep
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in mind you will never find the reference to ghost workers you'll find references to ghost work and that was quite intentional. 's of people use that term quite a bit. so what's the mechanism behind the work we are talking about? and what connects this type of fork to ride hailing absent other platforms you might be familiar with? by the early 2000's to realize they can take the mechanism to put out a call through the interface to execute a program to make that executable so they created a mechanism around data labeling and other
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kinds of tasks that were piecework but we will suggest this is just the beginning. but if anybody has a task they want to demand or have help with that they could be put on a platform to broker the relationship. in the abstract this is what is going on with this mechanism. so are there any projects that can be sourced, scheduled, managed, shd build through the application interface but hold on to that and think how much world of work that could develop if you apply that mechanism to the distribution of request for work and people being able to
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pick up the task. that's what i want to suggest when we think of the framing of the future of work. not automation even last year talking about the future of work like the second machine age and started thinking differently but to come to the floor with a framework so what is it? it is ghost work we need to stop it until it is built into everything that we do. and you are probably familiar with that category that we call the online or off-line platform services they are using that same mechanism with the interface to put out a request for somebody to pick up the food and deliver it and the platform participates in that exchange by recording when the food is picked up and delivered to execute a payment
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that portion of the work is automated but the delivery but the value of somebody to deliver the food is the part of the equation we are not considering. more increasingly we are aware of that because we can see them but if i said content moderation nobody would know what i was talking about. so now you know that is a job the people do that is providing another service trading for artificial intelligence but they are performing an important service. we are focused on business startups with business services that are below the surface of anything you will see as a consumer and that's the world of work i'm talking about today. it's the world of usability
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testing perhaps to some of you in the room, many of these tasks do drive artificial intelligence to structure and most of you know what i mean when i say that but increasingly the number of jobs to say it's actually quite hard to nail ai we will keep a person threaded into the service request tech space. if you go to a website in a little help window pops up it's a mixture of school so thinking about that world with that point of reference there is continuity and then
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automation will come around. that might look like piecework with textiles to have manufacturing knock out a shirt but for quite some time over a decade's yes automation made it possible for piecework to go away for some textiles but in other cases the reality of the paradox of the last mile that if it's too sophisticated for the textile machinery to consume through automation than a person was kept around. also in federal contract labor of the women who were made famous who could at the time be brought in to serve those
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computers that was a reference to the people and not the machines so when the demand for their services eventually disappear they could be let go. so there was less security but wasn't less valuable? so move forward for that work it was full time employment in off time - - often times they embodied those professions of white men of privilege who had a very specific role to play. anybody else was expendable. so to continue the lineage by the sixties with the advancement of staffing and temp services i point you to
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the book on the temp economy quite literally brokered on the devaluing of women's labor as a resource now they are college-educated they made a great office girl but were also extendable so keeping that threat moving by the time you get to the eighties or two thousands with the off shoring of office service work it becomes harder to make the case people are doing something that could so easily be replaced is also being done by workers in the united states it's a question of labor arbitrage just as anyone that is in the location generating the request for work. i often lament the settlement of the case against microsoft never resolve the question of
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what you do in a case of employment that is necessary for a period of time that is project driven if you need somebody with a specific expertise coding, coding, language, but you don't need them for more than 12 months or weeks or days. what ways do we have two value that worker? at the time we didn't have a category for that. so post 2000 in silicon valley so what happens effectively the.com bubble burst but at that moment that we resolved and settled without case law it left questionable what to do with people who are not necessary to hold them for a career in what we came up in the settlement were a set of practices that treat contract
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labor through vendor management systems that often don't leave them with the protection beyond the contract of 12 months to say i'm employed in the benefits come with my employment. so think of the history we have drawn and it is an argument that in this case we see the setting in place from the beginning of the industrial era of laws around labor protection they assume the valuable work is the work that cannot be automated without much projection of one day could be a target of automation. so it's built for assembly lines and professions that were to be beyond the touch of automation. that in the lives of temp staffing that has driven our economic activity globally as a growth of a service industr
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industry, that serves their request or needs more than to build something. and then the shift to information economy that involves a lot of people doing information service work yes it involves coding and other valuable skills with a great amount of training but think what it took to code a website in the two thousands if you had to hand code html now it's completely done with software forgot that time we paid quite a bit of money to build people's websites. my first work was 1099. keep that in mind as you think about what can be automated , the creative work in the
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communication beyond automation that is the open question. what will constantly be on the horizon requiring human touch? so with that this is how we studied because as an anthropologist it's hard to figure out where to dig in. we chose for businesses as the case study to identify groups of workers to show the inside of their black box. how did they organize, what does it look like and the company and with artificial intelligence there are two streams of work and in terms of framing, i hope you take a way to see this growing world of work is growing into
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different directions. the increo structure and analyze data. so take the radiologist that is not just one and done. you can do a great job to get image recognition with radiology but it seems like it will get rid of the radiologist now you just expand the market for people using radiology especially if you create mechanisms outside of the urban centers where people have never been able to get access now you create a market where other diagnostics will require an amount of expertise by a medical professional. it's not a doctor or a radiologist but a medical student or a new profession on the horizon.
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so that world of work to manage the information that we are collecting that will build artificial intelligence to take over the need for a human han hand, but then the second stream which is just as critical, human information services where we expect someone can answer my call 24/7 per gram of love it if none of us have that expectatio expectation. i would love to feel that but the reality is the number of small businesses want to offer a prompt with the medication and those kinds of cases they are not full-time employment but project driven work. in the case of our study the two streams of work are
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analyzed companies with image tagging location verification we picked them because we thought they were easy to automate and it turns out they are not and that classification path is another example of that stream of work so we can remove human hands with moderation and that is a found one - - a fantastic boundary object it's hard to get rid of people from the task. why? because not anything that's an obvious black or white it's very difficult to automate. and if you have humans deliberating over hate speec speech, we debate that it such a clear example of how do you classify of intimate
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exchange? content moderators are part of the solution to facilitate and identify what's going on in that moment. if you don't participate with social media there is that option. [laughter] so translation and captioning video. so this is a business this is a business serving other businesses with economic opportunities and activity. we chose the united states and india and you will notice some patterns in the workers based in india there is less obvious pattern in the united states
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looking for anyone who wants to look at the specific analysis of the data sets we have barely scratched the surface of the patterns and then thousands of interviews i'm sorry surveys and hundreds of interviews over 19 months fieldwork and then when you were in their life you can see the rhythm of their routines and how they get in and out of these markets. so doing the fieldwork it was an effort to figure out how to look at the large-scale data they are producing to get that transactional data so we can see how many clients are requesting and how long they stick around. do they change what kind of request they have i want to leave you with two findings from what is in the book and for me those are most pressing for the conversation we have.
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the first is like any open call, any environment where there is no obligation here and now commitment to you but if you would like to come in and do something come on in. guess what happens. you end up with folks who are really in it, going to make this into a full-time income stream they identified as enough money to make the rest of their economic reality manageable. because you've got a percentage of people who will see value in saying i will turn to this work. then you have another 20% saying i'm going to do this and a set amount of time, they have their reasons and i will get to that in a moment but they are the bench that when those 10% walk away when those kids are sick or need to do something else, you as a consumer will
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never know that the 10% who is really good at executing a task ever walked out. because those regulars are there effectively making themselves available to be on demand to the consumer. lastly and most importantly, this is a lesson that is really important to me in the wake of the california case, you've got a long trail of people experimenting with this labor market. they have a particular capacity or capability they are bringing to the table. maybe they want to try codeing or practice a language and want to see if it is more interesting, economically more viable than i am doing today or can i mix it into the other things i am doing so if it makes any survey particularly the bureau of labor statistics survey really challenging but if you ask somebody in this world what is your first job and your second job they don't
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have an easy answer to that question but a different mental model for what they are doing and the pareto distribution of participation is creating emerging mental maps. when you have people, ask them what are you doing? they work a silicon valley startup or an entrepreneur which means they see themselves as a small business owner or they are self-employed freelancers and don't always understand the difference between the last two statements, they were all on the same platform doing the same task. so how would you find out there work attitudes? how would they have different understandings of what they are doing? that is the core of what we need to talk about? what our people are asking when
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they participate in these labor markets was what need are they trying to meet that is not met in formal employment? we found several things but three kept coming up in all the interviews and survey work we did, watching them make decisions whether they stayed or left these markets, it was to control their time. often they had other obligations or commitments, to control the project they worked on to have some sense of agency over what they were doing because they worked in an environment where they found that alienating and lastly they wanted to control the work environment and somebody asks what it means to allow people to make choices about who they work with and how it has up sides and downsides but in this case, seeing this is not a matter of flexibility. i recommend everybody stop talking about this environment of flexibility. it is about control. that says to me as an anthropologist there is an absence of capacity to control,
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diminishing of agencies to move into formal employment that meets other needs they have. in these cases people are effectively wrapping work around their lives instead of their lives around work. it is not nice to have especially women because they have other obligations that are demanding their time. when someone like carmela says this work allows her to live her ideal life she is not talking about translation and captioning work she is doing. that is not her ideal life. it is having enough income to support her desire to do dance choreography. it is important not to tell her she is wrong and get a comfortable job in her area which is service work which is the boom we have most work opportunities in the formal sector.
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it is working at retail. she didn't want to do that. she had an opportunity to do that and left it. it was more money and she left it because she found this more manageable. where do we go from here? that is the rest of the conversation. a further chapter on that in the book. i want to tee up the pressing concerns when i am talking with labor organizers about what we have to contend with because the downside of a world of contract labor and independent worker environment is there is no center of gravity, no anchor for collective bargaining that has been the linchpin to advancing workers rights but also things like wages so i will put out there now if anybody is wondering if the market is going to fall, the wage situation for contract workers we need to remind ourselves the market never did. it was always intervention,
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society saying we want to work to look like this. we want to have these kinds of securities and benefits. we haven't done that yet for contract work at all in the united states. it is an important point. embarrassing to talk about this. the key takeaways we want to organize workers and help them to shift the debate around what their needs are, recognizing these labor markets there are never going to be on a single site. they are not going to have a single employer of record. they are not working with a unified professional identity that is so key, how do you organize if you don't see common cause? person next to you doing this work because they are experimentalists. this globally network, there is not a way to do this kind of work without seeing it as effectively a labor supply chain to global multinationals that have information needs that are not in one language or
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cultural context. you need to see collective achievements, value proposition of labor platforms is not an individual giving you something but many people being available to you. for example, most of the time we open a ride hailing apps. the thing that is compelling is you have several different cars hovering around your neighborhood you might be able to -- you saw one car and it was a competing company that can offer five cars hovering. the value all those workers are offering is their availability. their collective contribution of being available. we don't know how to value that arguably. that demand the most important conversation to have. why it is so easy to devalue people who are available to us and i would argue even with california assembly bill 5 we don't have laws governing this yet.
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i don't think we do. what would it take? there is argument to be made. i'm not talking about an ecosystem that is a raw material or environment to be tended to and protected or pillaged. i'm talking about seeing it as a social commons where many things are going on in the world of the workers making themselves available on these platforms. what would it look like to see their needs and prioritize those as necessarily need to be filled and be sustainably available. you don't want to not care about the need for scheduling or a wage war or the need for healthcare. i will leave you with those few thoughts. before i do that it is impossible to work on labor like this and not need to have
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a slide. thanks, everybody, who was involved in this project. so with that. [applause] >> terrific. we are going to take your questions but before we do i will take the prerogative back. the first thing, i will ask questions from two directions. i would like to bring out something in your book about it is not just that the machine is saying pass the test but the way people are hired and fired through the platform itself where they don't connect can you say more about that for a sense of what it was like? >> i was saying and application interface can at least in part schedule, manage, ship the bill through apis and the internet. there is a way in which the
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management of this process is so early days is a nice way of putting it. one of the chapters is called algorithmic cruelty and it walks you what it feels like to effectively be managed by a set of scripts. i don't want to fancy it up with ai. a set of scripts written by somebody making a request and just like any boss lots of bosses don't know exactly what they want and so in moments when a request is made and somebody isn't clear what they want the cost is absorbed by the worker so if for example i put a task on a platform and it is being managed by algorithms, there are things that can happen, the most distressing
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case of having his work account suspended. it is not clear why it is suspended but once they are locked out, you are locked out of your workplace. even more unsettling i don't want to put this as a maniacal lack, if you can a longer confirm the identity of someone working through an account, most to don't want to issue their last paycheck, his last paycheck just disappeared. >> that gives you are sense. there is no person they are in contact with. they can be shut down and have no mechanism of appeal. >> pic of the worst example of customer service you haven't forgotten like being trapped in a phone tree, it is that but it is your work. >> i want to ask a question from another direction. a rising industry, people
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living out of casework. it is a big imposition that people leave their homes to work and you want people to wrap workaround lives rather than lives around work, i would rather my work wrapped around my life. why do i have to leave my house? why can't i be with my family? the notion we have to be somewhere every morning and be home every night. one of the ways our market is incompatible with families and hinders people from raising children and so on. is there some upside we should be thinking about and ways to blend virtues of different models? >> absolutely. this is in some ways more optimistic than the cover of the book suggests. >> that's good. >> because there is a lot of potential here.
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something specific, the number of people we talk with. there is one woman in india who talked about doing this work and not have to sit in a 2 hour commute. as we move towards climate action a shout out to say what would it look like to say being able to underwrite and having municipalities support the opportunities for people to work in their homes or in a sitting near them, in a town, supported wi-fi hotspot, the possibility embedded in ghost work. >> one more time, you talk about the ways people are doing ghost work, organized in terms of working collaboratively so that is another feature of the environment that is obvious to people on the outside.
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>> one of my favorite moments was when sid realized the climbing where people are collaborating off line with something we are able to map and quantitatively measure that came up with the notion of the pareto distribution of engagement. you have a group of people when they got serious about turning a center of economic opportunity the next thing they did was reach for peers. they needed to talk with other people doing this work, how do i optimize my time, who are the bad actors, how do i make sure i'm advancing and finding other opportunities? there are pragmatic reasons our work lives are social. there is economic value in the social exchange for computer scientists who spent decades working with human computation
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it blows their mind that people talk to each other. my conversation with economists who spend 20 minutes grilling me with people mentor each other for free and all i can think is what is the world of economics that they don't like to share information? >> you understand why we do it. >> all those places where there is not direct pay off but people invest in connecting and collaborating with each other, a really wonderful finding in the study but that doesn't go away no matter what work you are doing. there is no job, people tell me this is menial mindless work, who would need to communicate about that? giving me a clear signal what work they didn't want to do but people doing this work make meaning of what they are doing, humans are good at making what
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they do meaningful. we are devaluing it. >> please raise your hand, please, go ahead. please introduce your self. >> you were right. >> a member of the task force. >> one of the distressing things in the past couple decades is how many people are left behind. the economy is bigger and wages are lower in terms of job insecurity. interested in hearing more about the things you are describing are symptoms versus causes. if you look at the top half of income distribution, a disproportionate number are independent contractors, small business people, doctors, lawyers, consultants compared to the bottom half which are selling their hours, not tasks.
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on the bottom half, the example you gave from carmela they like the flexibility they get. i always ask about what they are doing and many of them say they got paid more in their previous job but wanted more flexibility. it wasn't the company sitting there schedule but themselves. some of them said they like that there's an algorithm giving them their jobs rather than the biased dispatcher they had to kiss up to at the taxi service that was unfair to them. this is bad for people, is that a system of their lack of bargaining power from other courses or is it a symptom of these particular institutional
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mechanisms? >> after this project, the reality, i think of an economy's is structural institution, there is culturally something going on where we placed our expectations of what makes a good job and we haven't -- most people would agree much of our economy is growing around services, providing information, entertainment, what does the job look like and where are the places we have intervened, the we will see that as a sustainable form of employment that leads to a middle-class experience or possibility of people moving into the middle class globally. >> it is part of the way of helping people make it less likely or harder to have people
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do contingent work and more pushing them to regular employment work. is that part of the solution or would that be orthogonal? >> we can remain agnostic how much we push people into formal employment if they knew how to provide the basics. the biggest challenge we are fixated on, good opportunities are about full-time employment. formal employment leads to better opportunities in life and i don't see evidence of that globally. it was the most important thing about the united states and india. there is a certain, you don't see the expansion of formal employment, we see a ton of economic activity, the issue is what is the expectation? what institutional agreements are social contracts around
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anybody working? we are not starting from 0 but from legacies of arbitrage, colonialism, ways of imagining how we structure work that i believe have gotten in the way of us thinking let's reboot. there are good examples, sweden is a good example where it doesn't matter what job you do, you are going to have basic needs met and we haven't gotten to that place in the united states to see the economic benefit of providing basic needs. today this book is a business case for providing basic benefits that come with participating in economic life in the united states so it doesn't matter if a company needs you for 12 months or seasonally for two weeks, that won't hurt you economically in the business is interred economically by needing to predict serving somebody for an extended time and then get really hard for me to do
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without them? to get very specific services are about costs, anticipating and changing with consumer needs. we can think that is awful but most of us enjoy the fact we are catered to as consumers. that can be an ugly thing. the nice thing about being an anthropologist is i'm neutral on this. we are driven by consumer society. how can we make that not hurt working people? how can we make that a benefit to more people who are cashing in on selling the goods. >> i really appreciate all this good work. my question, you began to speak to the fact that there is social organization for many people in platform work.
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my sense is a social organization on a periodic or episodic basis that is mostly around the task of how can i get this done, where's the traffic jam and so on and what is your experience, how do we move from that form of social interaction to agency that is sustainable and builds sustainable interactions over time that engage people with the power to change the economic conditions, that is the big challenge. there's lots of social organizations in any form of work. it finds a way but we haven't figured out the institutional arrangements or to give people agency to address the economic issues and to address people with the power to control those issues. do you see any incipient room
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with optimism or develop along those lines? that is the next step we've got to figure out. >> i'm smiling because the chapter called kindness of strangers is all about the long-term relationships people build, building their own tools to meet in discussion forums and facebook groups, to text each other, to sit in skype channels over years. these people send each other birthday gifts and laptops when somebody's laptop dies. there are ties beyond social exchange about is this a bad employer or not? there is more than nascent connection. there is deep connection. the issue to me is the identities, that mixed set of mental maps, people building up fairly strong walls about who belongs and who does not, can get the now phobic very quickly. candy about we are serious
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about this work but a lot of people aren't and those are the places where being able to build on ramps that help people engage in activities together, we get some specific examples of different not exactly protests but petitions, campaigns that workers organize. what workers are already doing and the biggest challenges organized labor has a very specific model how to organize people and it has not updated to deal with what do you do when you have independent parties, is it a case of antitrust, a bunch of independent workers who are effectively small businesses who are colluding? if that is not the framework, we haven't moved to a place that we say make associations legal, make organizing legal and what are the ways in which you can bring labor to the table to be the facilitator of
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those connections. these are keeper of the keys, let unions be the place where someone's work or identity is held. one of the biggest challenges in these markets is how to verify this person is in scamming me? if you are registered with your guild and you can say i'm with this organization so they got my identity and can verify the business winds, the worker wins, they are not having their privacy invaded and the union arguably wins because it just refreshed its relevancy to the next generation of workers. >> my question is related to this. the book mentions social organization on east coast workers and it really enables very simple outsourcing of complex tasks like managers who make multimillion dollar salaries and not do anything
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like a bunch of examples. that is a huge problem. i was wondering how do we value work in the face of ghost work? >> that is the heart of the problem. you have to be a real jerk to say i accomplished everything on my own. in those moments, being able to have a culture shift for that manager when they ask for somebody's help, think of the word outsourcing. when i ask someone to help me with a range of things i cannot manage myself. and what world does that mean the people helping me out i just peripheral, not that important, so in many ways it is like how do we recognize the value of somebody serving us? that is socially, culturally the biggest challenge in front of us, we have not learned. i like to put it this way. if we knew how to value people serving us, the people who take
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care of people's children and parents wouldn't be paid like they are but taking care of kids is such a worthless job. i would call attention to pricing is not about market value. it is not about their value. we have yet to land, how do we value the collective contribution aggregated to solve others. the collective contribution of individuals aggregated to serve others and making themselves available to us. we were compensated well for that. it doesn't have to be like that. >> chris peterson, happy to see the book. on one of your first slides there's an interesting
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asymmetry where businesses were demanding attention and workers were providing labor, interesting that it wasn't attention attention labor labor. talk about that asymmetry. >> i haven't checked in about this. and how we think about buyers and sellers. you need more training and economics, how we treat labor like we talk about any other product has always confused me, and demand somebody's attention and somebody can supply or provide that moment of service.
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to turn that 2-sided market into an equitable exchange and a better model for us and a way forward. you recognize individuals as sole proprietors and shore up the other means of the mainstream chambers of commerce involved here to see these individuals, sole proprietors and information, but we have seen before but no less valuable as providers. >> there is a book in michigan, she has a book on private justice. please go ahead with your question.
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>> a phd student, this is fascinating. i want to point out textile workers. i have a friend my age from laos to canada and ten years ago, illegally as part of this vast network. i'm curious, the informal sector is 3 quarters of jobs in this country, a lot is underreported. what is different about ghost work today, is it the literacy or technology, or what might cause this. >> in asking the question about continuity, this work hasn't gone away. one is to say we thought of
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informal markets, and and with one employer, let's take the judgment out of how loaded it is in the informal economy. or in the formal economy. there is some sort of trajectory, we are all very nervous when you start thinking about linear trajectory of cultural development. and it is the continued exploitation, whether than being informal in those cases. how to make any economic activity to bring dignity in respect to that work. to the second point you are
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raising in this kind of work, it is i don't want to say a volume issue but so distributed in that it can happen so quickly and this makes me most nervous, that the abuse of people in supply chains will be more difficult than someone on a button. they are in their homes, and to monitor what is happening and how they are being forced to work. that is difficult anyhow, to know the supply chain that is behind who is producing the shirt i'm wearing or the food that i eat. about information work, don't
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we want to know the work conditions of people who had a hand at producing it? i say that thinking with elections coming up for content moderation we would all be better served as citizens if we had a better sense and supportive work conditions of the people managing that information. >> it was elizabeth anderson by the way. >> also -- tests of the future. my question relates to the fact that an anthropologist -- and everybody -- but talking about solutions, private social security systems.
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the question i have is we know there are solutions. how do we move a culture, a population, a country as long as the answer is things with different things. >> that is a great question. it would seem -- working on the answer. it has always taken civil society, government to address this problem. it is not a market problem. this is a fundamental social question. how do we want to treat working people and when we see ourselves as people -- imagine, what would it take to make sure they have a good life. what it does is galvanize
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consumers, we benefit from these services, for anybody who raise their hands, uber and lift will not support survive california bill 5. and business operations. and we all lose and we are kicking the can down the road and how would we come to grips with we have moved to effectively service information economy. how do we make the meaningful dignified work. >> there will be two additional book talks during the course of the sector. and talking about her book called the job and the cast of the manhattan institute, the once and future worker which is
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coming from a different perspective. i hope you will join us for that as well. [applause] >> live thursday on the c-span networks, former national security adviser hr mcmaster speaks at the foundation for defense of democracy at noon eastern on c-span. later, new america hosts a for a man ranked choice voting also known as instant runoff voting. at 8:00 eastern we take you to minneapolis for donald trump's campaign rally. on c-span2 at 9:30, a center for immigrations the study on immigrant healthcare. at 12:30 p.m. from the middle east institute a form on centcom strategy for security and the middle east. on c-span3 at 9:00 am the brookings institution look that a new report on universal national service.
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weekend coverage of the southern festival of books, starting saturday at 11:00 eastern. featuring chris edmonds with his book no surrender and a good provider is one who leads. and paul leroux on his book, on the plane of fate. our live coverage from the southern festival of books start sunday at 1:00 eastern. at 2:00 eastern, learning from the germans. and ambassador for the united nations, samantha power talks about her book with education of an idealist and david katie with his book religion of fear. watch live weekend coverage of the southern festival of books starting at 11:00 eastern on saturday and at 1:00 pm sunday on booktv on c-span2.
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this week you are watching booktv to see what programs are available every weekend. watch top nonfiction authors and books along with coverage of events, affairs and festivals and interviews on policy, technology and more. our signature programs, "in depth" and "after words". enjoy booktv this weekend every weekend on c-span2. >> welcome to secret science club north. hello, welcome. i am margaret mittelbach. >> i'm dorian devins. >> for anyone who is a first timer, we are a series that brings scientists of all disciplines out of their labs to the public stages. where people like you can

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