tv Marie Arana Silver Sword and Stone CSPAN October 20, 2019 6:03am-6:59am EDT
>> good afternoon. i'm barbara alvarado some i'm a bilingual educator, interpreter, organizer and work with the madison public library and community engagement with the design and implementation of spanish bilingual story times. aim honored to introduce a conversation between david maraniss, great writer and historian, who works with the "washington post" and maria acran newscast. both david and marie are colleagues at the "washington post." very humbled to introduce marie aanna, author, editor, journalist, literary critic and member of the scholars council at the library of congress. marie is peruvian american and a work embodies who she is as an historian, novelist, essayist, and a human being in this modern world.
her books include american chica, cellophane, the writing life, bolivar, american liberator, and silver, sword and stolen three crucibles. silver, sword and stone is an a history of latin america for over a thousand years, going back, but brings all this history into our present days through the lives of three people. leonard, carlos, and javier. each of these perps are intertwined with the three parts of he history of silver, the sword and the stone, referring to the ex-stacks, the violence and religion that if plagued latin america for over 500 years. marie believes we must understand our collective history in the past to understand today.
she is an inspiring writer, whose pacing and come. passion gives -- cam passion gives us hope. brings lying to america from the north of canada to tear'a del fig good. she compels us to be compassionate and to hopefully move to change the very structures that are present. maria arana. >> thank you. it's a special pleasure for me to talk with marie arana, we are colleagues at the "washington post." she was probably the classeestest and most intelligent writer to walk through the doors compared to the rest of us slobs, but this
is -- aside from mat barbara said, marie has done so many wonderful things including being central to the national book festival in washington i go to whenever i can as an author, which is one of the premiere events in the country, and the wisconsin book festival is doing a great job of following in that line of wonderful books and authors and appreciating the reading life. so, marie, welcome to madison. >> thank you. so such blue to being here. thank you for having me and what a welcome trip to make this morning to come to madison,-week, i'm very glad to be hero. >> i want to start with conception. i know that in some sense it was your peruvian aunt who said, explain this, right? >> right. >> so that gets your mind thinking. how did you go about coupling up
with what you could call the trinity or what you call the crucible of these three ways to explain this vast place? >> i always reach into my family somehow to get the gears moving, and it was my aunt -- not only my aunt but also new godmother this, father's sister who we were just thatting one day about simone bolivar. i just finished a biography who was the liberator of six republics in latin america and i was saying to her, revolutions, the wars of independence, in the united states of america and in the rest of latin america, were so different. they were so extraordinarily different in a way. they were prosecuted in different ways. the people fought them in different ways. the issues were so different.
i said i think there's fundamentally tiasome which haba, difference in the people, and it showed in those wars of independence and the most dramatic and stark way, and she said, hmm, that's an interesting concept, and she said, if you really think that the two peoples of the united states of america and the rest of latin america are that different, give us a book about it. and it was a challenge. it was a challenge. and so that -- there was that. my father had a game that he used to have us play when we were in the airport as kids, and we had nothing to due and no toys to play with and no books to read and he would sit me down -- is was the young ands the most unruly and he would sit me down and he would give me a piece of paper and he would do a
doodle on it and said make of this doodle a pretty picture. and i would turn it around, and then eventually i would make something out of it. and then he said, okay do the same for me. would do some scratch and -- he was ang inning here and had a draftsman skills would turn into it something gorgeous, and that sort of the way david i write my books. i have a doodle, and then i construct -- i try construct something beautiful out of it. it is almost a parlor game. i would -- with simone bolivar i was trying think of the one person whose life represented an arc of narrative that told the most about latin america, and her was a man who liberate countries from the caribbean down to bow clave to the andes, and -- bolivia, to the andes,
and his family had been in latin america for 300 years, and 300 years of colonial sort of struggle. and so when i was thinking as a parlor game with myself, the doodle with the scratch, what person would most present the biggest geography, the longest history and it was simone bolivar. it was a little more complex because it was so -- if indeed there is something different about the lattin latin american experience, what is it. we could talk all day how warm we are, how much we love our families and we are very family oriented, how much we look to the past because tradition we -- we carry traditions with us, and how much we love music and art and culture, and how many extraordinary artists and
writers have come from latin america but those things don't tell us anything but what has mothed populations, what has created strife, what has kept a countries from progress, what has sort of captured people in poverty, and so i began to think of the thing that had done those things, move populations, kept countries behind, prevent progress and all of that, and it seemed to me that there was a kind of trip tick at work and it all worked together in a way. the first was the extractive nature of latin america that for really certainly since the conquistadors and probably before that, certainly before that, the business of taking
from the earth or taking from the land, and sending it away. whether it was in the colonial times, that spain came and took the silver and everything away, and sent it of -- it was spain who created the global economy by doing that, eventually taking silver from latin america and sending it to europe and to asia to manila to beijing, to pay" pay be king, that business of let them come in here and take what we have. that was one thing.the other thing was that's culture of violence we have live with all the way back to indigenous times. it's very much a part of who we are. it's very much a part of -- not that we are violent but that
violent is imposed on us. violence in latin america is very different from north america, from the united states and that here we hey random violence, people go into a church and shoot people um or people go into a school and shoot people up. it's a random thing. and uncontrollable in a way. in latin america it's organized violence. you have rebellions, you have military crackdowns, you have drug wars, you have -- it's a much more organized sort of violence on the part of people. so that seemed to work hand in hand with the exploitation, the ex-tracktive nature, the exploitation and the violence and then what it? what watched with the congiusta doors into the cones -- conquistadors into the conquest
was the priests and the culture and the government, the faith because imposed, so, to make a very long answer to your question, that was how i got those three things. >> i suppose one could argue that the united states was based on organized violence. the genocide of the native americans. >> of course. >> the point is well-taken. >> i think it's a little different because it was almost as if the native americans here were like part of the landscape you could push back, and as opposed to in latin america where you married them and you had children with them, and it was a different sort of -- >> so many evocative places in this book. just one after another. the first one that struck me was, from the united states
perspective, the stereotypes and the lack of knowledge about south america in particular is pretty bleak. you know but immigration and not much else, and so understand that petoci was at the center of everything at one point is stunning. tell the audience about that. >> the city of popoci which was the mountain, it was this tremendous sort of mother load of silver that cone keys extra doors came across. an indian came across. the was camping out and going from one place to another, and he camped out on the mountain, and he built a fire and the silver trickled out it and wad loaded with silver. for decade, hundreds of years, it went from being the
engravings of the 1500s and it is a peak like this now. you'll see it and it's a hump like this because they have literally taken all of the silver out. at the time that it was at its highest in the 1600s, 1700s, it was the center of the universe. it was bigger than london, bigger than paris, it was -- it had musicians, it had -- who came from abroad to perform there. it had very fancy houses, beautiful cathedrals, and then of course as the silver waned, the people began to leave, and now you go there and it's a shell of itself. but it was an extraordinary place in its time. >> the other trinity that goes with this silver, sword and stone are the three characters.
how did you find them? they seem to fit perfectly but must have been quite a process to find these three characters s and then develop them into the larger story. >> it's a good question because it's a lifetime of collecting. you'll know, as someone who has worked in journalism, you meet people along the way. i had met -- let's tart with the mining. i had met the -- my character in the silver part of the book. i had met her when i had gone up to a place called -- which is a very small mining town. it's the highest human habitation in the world on the planet. it sits at 18,000 feet. it has about 40-50,000 people in it. all mining in the rock, just
underneath a glacier. it's -- they mine gold. and i met her because she was -- i had actually gone up for another purpose completely. had been asked to write a film on -- write part of a film on education and poverty and girls and how educated girls could actually change communities, and in the process of doing this film issue went up to see a little girl whom i had chosen out of 40 videos send to mitch chose this girl for the film and i was fascinated by her mother. so even though i was writing about the little girl for the film, i followed the mother for years, really, for six or seven years, and she was an extraordinary figure to me. she was at the age of 45 she
looked 80. she -- her skin was completely damaged by the sun. she had no teeth. she was extraordinarily strong spiritually woman and she had lost her husband in a mining accident. he -- his mind -- his mind collapsed and the had to raise these children on her own. it didn't occur to her to go down the mountain and go somewhere that was safer. the city is one of the most lawless places in all of peru. there is no government. there are no police. there is murder is rampant, aids. ant, prostitution rampant. white slavery. ant. there's no water no way to get food, really, unless you bring it up yourself. it's the most primitive standards and it just occurred to me that this woman, when i was thinking of these things i
want tote write about, this woman represented a life that was almost exactly the life that her ancestors would have lived 500 years ago. so that was leonore. carlos, i had been following for years because i had written a piece for the "washington post" more than 20 years ago, and it was for the anniversary of the release of the marell boat people who left -- who fidel castro thrust out of the country 1980 and these people came without shoes, just with stuff on their become. this particular person came from jail because castro opened the jails and said go, go, get out of the island and good do your
mischief elsewhere. so i met. carlos in washington. he land in key west with no shoes. had been sent out to kansas for indoctrine nation -- not -- thank you -- and he -- then eventually came to washington, dc, and i was able to write about him as one of the people who -- what had become of their lives. a lot of maryell boat people became very successful in the united states, eventually owned restaurants or became bankers and lawyers and carlos went on to become a criminal. and i followed his life until he actually was caught in a drug raid and sent to lordon prison and it from a "washington post" piece and i followed him for years and he seemed to me
because of that trajectory of life that he had led, he had fought in the war in angola, and had been brutalized really by the experience, and that brutalization had made him very comfortable with violence. so he became very much the arch representation of violence. the third one was harder and i actually had to hunt for javier because i was looking for a priest or a nun or somebody who could represent the faith for me in latin america who would be large enough that this person could actually take in all the aspects, and it was recommended to me by a friend of mine who is a professor, you should really good down to bolivia and meet this man. so i did and i didn't look any farther than that because this was an extraordinary man. he was a priest who came from
spain. he arrived in bolivia at the age of 17. very, very young, very innocent in the sense that he thought he was coming -- to evangelies the indigenous and he end up being evangeliesed himself in the sense he fell in love with the bolivian people and he learned their languages and he decided that he was going to do was promote their cultures, not his own. >> which not all priests did. >> which not all pre-s did. >> fund him more likeable and empathetic. >> absolutely but his life -- he is now almost 90. went through all the peereds of liberation of theology and that sort-thing that represented -- and what he said that really
capture he mid attention was he said i'm paying back for the conquest. am a big paying back for all the priest weather supported the conquistadors and kept the power hold. >> getting back to carlos. the phrase that i found imposing but fascinating was transgenerational engine it inic enheritages. >> you said that very well. >> i had to practice it. i tripped over itself in my office several times. in any case, it's sort of -- i would say it's a little tricky social science concept but i can see you applying it now carlos. tell the audience what that -- >> it's a mouthful, transgenerational -- it's a new science, and it's not even quite yet a science. think there is being followed by
some very important researches and scientists so see if it is indeed true. it's based on the fact -- the way to describe it best, i think, i is through example. if a person has lived through the holocaust, say, and has suffered enormously, and has been broken psychologically, by the experience of the holocaust, that experience will have biological implications on the next generation. and so by sort of logic you would think, okay, if is goes from generation to generation, goes down, down, down, are we still in a way the inheritors of an american experience, i think
you know are we living as -- this would be an example of tran generational inheritance. i you lived through the vietnam war and the civil unrest and through that whole generation that lived through that, does that do something to your children? n real ways and psychology is as real as biology, as we all know, so these things can be inherited. and i posed the question, if you have lived this extraordinarily difficult and fraught history that latin america has lived through, are we carrying that burden in a way? i asked the question. have no answers. >> having lived in texas for eight years, i tend to believe part of it, from the cowboys down to the gun toting of today and why generation after
generation on the back of the trucks. there's a brilliant paragraph at the end of your book i'd like to read. we cannot turn back time. we cannot undo the world we have made but until we understand the ghosts in the machinery, the victims of our collective am emotion ya, we cannot hope to under the region also it is now. to look it's squarely a long list of inequities lies at the heart of the latin american narrative. >> thank you. >> that captures what you're trying to do there. you come to that at the end of the book, and sort of explain how you got that point of understanding. >> well, i feel very strongly that history makes us who we are; that we are the product of the history of our families, of our people, of our ancestors, our countries, of our faiths in many cases, and i think that we
are the product of that history. i believe that strongly. it dismays me sometimes that we don't pay enough attention to history. we don't pay enough attention to the things that have really shaped the cultures we live in, and i -- that sort of amnesia worries me because i think in particular when you look at national characters, the -- there's deep things you need to understand about what history does. let me give you an example. in the united states of america, we believe that we are exceptional people. we believe that we have a great nation, that we are great people, that we have created a great country, and that we can export that greatness, and we do. right? we think we're pretty special. we are. and we have that whole attitude.
in latin america nobody thinks they're exceptional. nobody thinks they're special. nobody has ever thought they would export. i think in the only example i can think of someone who thought he could export anything is when castro sent warriors to angola, trying to say i can do this the way that great countries send warriors to other places. >> i argue dominican and pork puerto rican baseball players. >> okay. very exceptional. you're right, you're right. >> i'm sorry. >> you're absolutely right. but at any rate, it's that business out history shaping us, and also the fact i don't think -- here in the united states of america, we know enough about latin america, we know enough about the history of the hispanics who live among us, and now we hispanics are 22% of
the population, very soon to be a third, which is sort of just by math i think we need to know at bit of the history. so that -- my whole mission has been to focus on that. >> this is another way of asking a couple of the questions i've already asked. how did your history shape your writing of this book? >> my goodness. i come from two cultures. i am what i call a mutt of two -- >> a mutt like me, as obama said. >> yes. i love that when he said that. my father is peruvian and my mother is american. she whereas born in kansas, and my father was born in lima, peru, and during the second world war, when all the classrooms, al the universities were met emptied out of men
what's they went to war, the state department started to bring latin american bright young latin american men up to fill the classrooms, and my father was one of those people. he was brought up -- he was actually offered this twice, the first time he turned it down because he had a girlfriend he was interested in, and didn't want to leave her side. this second time he thought, m.i.t. is a pretty smart place, maybe i'll go, and so he went and he went to boston and he did his university work, graduate work, in m.i.t. and it was there he met my mother who was studying music, a violinist, and so i have these two sides of my culture, my mind, my family life. my father immediately took my mother down to peru and she was the only american i knew.
we had dish was raised in this very warm bosom of a very loving peruvian family and i was peruvian and i was completely convinced that my mother was sort of a strange bird and the landscape. and then of course when i was 10, we moved to the united states, and i tried to convince myself i was american and i pretty much have, and my father was the odd bird in the landscape. so, i have seen it from both sides. there were two people who adored each other, but they couldn't agree on anything. >> we all know that. >> but deep things, like the way that you greet a person, the way that you bury a person, the way you eat at the dinner table, the way that you receive friends,
the way that you practice your faith. they were very different, and there would we arguments and i would be the one to negotiate. they would say -- my mother would say would you please tell your father that we're in this country now, and that you -- this is the way you do things and my father would say, my god, would you please tell your mother you can't run barefoot through the grass? that's just unacceptable. draftsman skills would turn into it something gorgeous, and that sort >> the other aspect of peru you deal of -- many aspects is the violence of the shining path and how that was created and how it infected the country you love. >> it was terrible to watch. it was something that i watched in my own lifetime. you could see the terrorists had such a hold on the country they came interest lima and set up storefronts where they operated out of it and was a terrible
time. bombs going off all the time. you couldn't send your children to school. couldn't go down the street really for fear of a bomb being there. people were plastering things then windows so they wouldn't rattle and fall. it was a really -- and tanks in the streets all the time because eventually when the president came interest power who wiped -- into power who wiped out the terrorism there was that other side, the military side came -- so i saw this sort of rebellion and repression cycle in my own lifetime several times, and it was a pretty terrifying thing to be living in the middle of a city that was held by the terrorists. so it was a very happy day when
they were driven out. of course the president turn out to be not as good as we thought he was and was in fact very corrupt and had blood on his hands as well. so long story. >> one thing that struck me about it, which i wasn't -- i wasn't a student of it but the unwitting consequences of somewhat good intentions. in other words, the setting up of a university and bringing people who couldn't go to college before, into this place, and then radicalized there and -- >> one professor. the whole -- cost 70,000 lives and this professor had -- was part of a boom in an andean university in the mountains, and the he had gone to china, studied maoism, was sure the way forward was for the grassroots to rise up and to do exactly what mao did, which was -- mao
was to wipe out the intellectual class, kill everybody who had anything and start from scratch. and so that's what he set out to do. >> let me ask you a couple of personal questions. for those who don't to, she's married to jonathan yardley, great book credit frk of modern times. -- critic of modern time. hoe does that senator does he read your stiff, critique it, encourage it or swim intimidate you. >> our house us full of books. we pull our hair because there are always too many books and the trauma of getting rid of books so there's this thing we have, and it is a wonderful life actually. the ability to talk beaut -- talk about books with my husband. we have very different tastes heavily loves country music. don't get it.
i love mombo and rumba and the didn't get it. >> it's a little waspy. >> he's quite whoopsie, -- waspy and we argue but books all the time. i will read something and say you have to read this, and then he would read it and say what was so good about that and then make me angry and we have a very heated conversation, and this is our life. >> and so just personally how do you go organize your writing process? what is your room look like? a room of one zone is what the book store here, you have your room of your own, i'm sure, and how do you put together the material and then go about writing. what's your day or week or month lying. >> i'm a strong believer in that you can put off the writing too long and i guess this comes from
journalism. you can research something -- in other words, i give myself a year, solid year, of reading and research, when i'm starting a booking and i do nothing but that. and then i make myself sit down and start writing because even though i'm going to research for all those years i'm writing, i need to be writing at that point because it helps organize the thinking process. so, i'm somebody who is researching all the time as i'm writing, and filling in things. mario vargas once said i create when i write this magma, which is like slop, and then eventually he says -- i'm not a writer, i'm an editor. i feel the same way. you create this slop it and doesn't make sense and tchen you go back and slap into it shape
and you whittle it and work on it and polish it and burnish it and then it becomes something. but you're basically -- people are afraid to write or have writers block because they wanted to by perfect from the get-go. it never is and i think we know that from juniorism. there's no time to -- journalism. there's no time to put something off. you have to do it and then it becomes what it is. my room where i write is -- i blight my pajamas. you can imagine what my room is like. it's very comfortable. i i have a lot of places to sit and then i actually have -- have been known to write a book on a very hard chair with no upholstery to it. >> because? >> because it makes sort of -- >> you have to do it. >> yeah. makes you sit there and do it. >> i'll ask one more question and then time for a couple of
questions from the audience and this is the only political question i'm asking. you don't have to ain't politically. the question is, is latin america becoming more like the united states or the united states becoming more like latin america. >> that is such a good question. such a good question. i have -- having grownup latin america, having immersed myself really since i left book row, when i was in book criticism the world was my oyster. very large landscape to cover. and then i left it to get to focus on latin america, and you see this -- what i try to describe in the book, these cycles that latin america goes through and they are of a kind of rebellion and then a repression, as i've said, and it happens again and again and again. and it's because the revolution
never really actually was won. what happened was that one colonial structure took over which is the white elites took over, spain's role, and i look at the united states and i think, we have in this country cycles, of course, of rebound -- rebellion and then we have wars and there is a rhythm here as well, but i have actually -- i find it remarkable how the present day, where you have almost a fear of leaving your party or leaving -- actually being more candid or more able to reach across the table and talk to somebody in candid ways and constructive ways, which is the way things are in latin america. find that surprising in this country and i live in
washington, dc so i see it all the time. senators are really afraid to be seen with each other if they're from the different parties because they feel like they're sullying each other's message, and this is disturbing. i've never seen it quite this way. i had to read joanne freeman's book to be reminded that back in the civil war days, back abraham lincoln's time there were -- there was great partisanship and great actually people were slapping each other up physically in. >> caning each other. >> but we haven't seen that in present times but it's disturbing to see that inability to communicate and to have more tolerance really of one another. >> there's a microphone over here. take a few questions. >> this is a related question. building off that one.
going forward, what are a couple significant events happening now that -- do you see things evolving now that build out of the three you identified from the past or new forces latin america that are slipping in ways, personalities or mentally or exploitation by different economies? i guess what do you see going forward for the next 25 or 50 years, what's shaping things now. >> maybe attempts to win the heart and soul of latin america, starting from -- as you say the certainly there was a communist wave and that was rejected. there was a democratic -- wave of democracy and that is now being sort of rejected. we have presidents who are elected. for instance, morales in bolivia who is elected by the people, actually did some very good work in his first tenure.
the way hall yugo chavez was elected democratically and did some good work. then there was this, i own this position and will never leave this position, and we will subvert the constitution. we will disband congress so i can keep this position. that is something that is a real wound in the side of latin america and we need to sort of watch that and try to overcome it. on the other hand, mexico, for instance, is for such a long period of time now have had regular elections in mexico, which was unheard of in the past, and people, very organized fashion, go to the polls and they elect their president, and the president before them leaves
town and the democratic process goes on. there are a lot of other problems but that is an advance. that's a huge advance. i see uruguay doing very well, costa rica doing very well so there are glimmers of hope, people changing the gears and changing the way that things go. but then you see argentina which has just fallen back into disarray. you see venezuela which is in chaos. there's a exodus of venezuelans throughout latin america, creating problem nets way are being created here in the texan border because they're taking jobs, they're -- some of them are breaking the law and these things -- these things infect us. on the other hand, there are some signs of progress. the economy in peru is booming,
even though we're having a constitutional crisis there at the moment. the economy in colombia was booming at the biggest time of violence so how do you explain that? it's quite extraordinary. irony is everywhere. >> i'd like you expand on what you said about the venezuelan influence on -- sound like it was all negative in terms of immigration. when you think of latin american immigration to the united states it's largely positive, and -- >> i don't mean to say that venezuelan immigration to the rest of south america has been totally negative. in fact there has been people have really -- they have sacrificed a lot. venezuelans have walked to ecuador. imagine that. of walked to peru, and they may be professors, may be musicians and they're taking jobs as
menial jobs as construction workers or grocery market workers, and they're making do. they're sending money back to those who haven't left venezuela. but they're also taking culture and their owed indicated people, a lot of the people who left venezuela are the most educated people, teachers and musicians and the like. so, it is as immigration can be, an infusion of good along with everything -- all the problems that arise from it and the indignation that comes from it. >> miami questions out there? -- anymore questions. >> i have a sense that after the nazis were defeated in europe that there was significant
migration of low-level germans and others in europe. my father was born in norway and there was a significant fifth column in norway of nazis. that found homes in south america. so is that -- was that because there was already white elites there because of the strong man kind of tradition, because -- did they have -- have they had significant intellectual and political and cultural influence or is my notion simply wrong in its scope, that there's not that much influence of this particular migration of ideas and people? >> thank you. argentina and chile profited greatly from european migration and it was because the governments said in the way that our president said, why don't we
have more migration from norway they said why won't dehave more migration from europe. get more white people here and in fact they invited with open arms -- i talked to a friend of minimum in buenos aires and she said when her parents came during this time, they were given homes. they were actually given jobs. they had people to welcome them, and to actually make their lives comfortable, it was the usual migration that, actually a very easy migration and they took all of the top jobs in argentina and chile and then you go to argentina and it's largely italian, germans, and you good to chile and it's the same. coming from a country that is largely indigenous, like peru, to go to travel to chile or
argue it's like going to madrid or paris. it's a completely different world. >> you have written two novels at least, right? are you going back to that next or what is next for you? >> this is a point between me and my husband. he wants me to go back to fiction. i think it's because i dedicated two books to him. and he sees himself as one of the characters in my novel and he actually is. so, i think he'd like to go -- me to go back to fiction. >> is hey likeable character in the novel. >> oh, yes. oh, yes, handsome. sort of brave and -- yeah, and accomplished. and wonderfully whacky. >> i usually go over. if there are no more questions
-- yes, sir. >> finale. >> i'll pea it. >> another latin american i would like to -- the way you asked but -- [inaudible] were colonialized by spain and portugal and then later england, and -- [inaudible] -- then the united states took the place of these powers. what do you see most -- where you want to go, history, present, future of the relation between latin america and the united states? >> okay. if you didn't hear it, the gentleman said -- there have been period of colonialism, really, in the -- after the spanish came, spain and portal and latin america and then the european colonialization in terms of commerce and then the
united states actually putting into effect the monroe doctrine, and the monroe doctrine says clearly if anything happens in this hemisphere that looks like a foreign invasion of any kind or an invasion of any -- a foreign ideology, we have the right of the united states of america to step in anywhere and do what we need to do to clean it up and to reject whatever that influence is, and so there's this fence and we have felt it in many countries in latin america when the united states has come in, either commercially or even politically, and certainly militarily, and has influenced a whole course of nations. so it is -- and i feel, i think, as you seem to feel as well, that this is a colonialism of sorts and its has been, and it's something that is very rick to
shake, frankly, because if somebody comes down and builds factories and starts commerce and creates jobs, my own father worked for an american company in peru. there is the sense of well-being in the end, though, what is happening is that the country itself is not developing. and the people themselves are not coming to full realization because they're being governs by an outside force. >> thank you. think -- because of c-span we have to -- one more question. >> i wanted to ask you a quick followup to that question inch hi household my husband and i often ponder how really for all the violence that america has perpetrated on latin america and for all the violence that exists in many of those countries, i think america gets off pretty easily without getting anything
back in terms of violence personally and so we talk about -- it's a colonial relationship where we as a country, as a whole, suffer very little violence and i think it's -- i don't know. when you talk about national character issue just wonder if you had any thoughts about that, because it really feels like we have been pretty immune from the repercussions of that. ... what has occurred down there that's important because it does have repercussions eventually, whether the children who are in school with your children or whether it's people coming across the border. and creating tremendous human rights situation problems.
we don't know the history of the united states and other countries of latin america. we don't know that it was virtually ãbthe history of the united states and cuba, for instance, that created fidel castro. the situation of the united states and nicaragua that has created really virtually the problematic nature of nicaragua today. or guatemala, or honduras, or chile. when nixon and kissinger decided that they didn't want the proper american copper companies and corporations to be nationalized because that's what salvador oriented committed president ãwanted to do they immediately created this force to oust president ã