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tv   Michael Long and Pamela Horowitz Race Man  CSPAN  July 14, 2020 8:28am-9:57am EDT

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i also want people to please consider subscribing to manhattan institute news letter or making contribution to our mission. we have posted both links are doing so in the comments window on your screen, and thank you again for your time, everyone. be safe. >> tonight a special edition of booktv airing weeknights this week. starting at 8 p.m. eastern. >> enjoy booktv on c-span2. >> we are 45 years old and
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ordinarily we come to you live in person at 184 184 south chal in decatur georgia. we are now the new school for scott comes but during the current fiber, to life from my home office in atlanta, georgia. we have been doing a whole series of educational programs that fall under our mission of fostering sustainable commutes him working for social justice and encouraging the expression diverse and marginalized voices all through these virtual formats. we feel very fortunate we have a proto-talking to authors who lived all over the country during this time. we feel it is really, really, really significant that we continue to do the programming that we already have scheduled. because folks need history as we move through this historic time. there's really no, i can think of no better book to help us focus on what the movement for black lights needs right now,
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what we can do to contribute right now in this book, "race man: julian bond selected works, 1960-2015". we have the editor here, michael long and pam horowitz who is julian bonds lifelong collaborator for justice and his widow we hope will be up soon. she's having some technical difficulties but again i want to invite you to settle in, make yourself at home. we would get to some question and answer in the chat but please keep your phone on me. you don't have to turn your camera on but we're just going to enjoy some time with michael and hopefully get pam on political. please welcome michael long. michael is of the editor multiple books, and one of my favorites, a really important collective works of -- i want to just go ahead and bring it on, michael. so if folks will switch their
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view from tao the review to speak of you, and michael starts talking, he will be on speak of you and you will take up the screen. please welcome michael long. >> thank you. it's good to do with all of you. can you alter me okay? , , coming through in the? >> you sound great. >> okay great. i scheduled the format to be with pam in dialogue, so since she started at the bit of a struggle for me but we can adjust and move along organically as we possibly can. e. r. suggested a begin with a bit of a reading from -- [inaudible] by the way, i lived in atlanta for several years. graduated from university and i love the city quite a bit. hey, i see pam has joined us. >> she is here. >> pam, it's good to see you.
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welcome aboard. how do we do this? is there a split screen? or does the person speaking speech the person speaking on the screen so if everybody turns the camera on speak of you as opposed to on gala review, you will switch automatically between speakers and which is the most fluid way to do it. >> okay great. everybody got that? super. pam, welcome. it's good to have you with us. >> thank you. >> i thought we would begin by talking about the george floyd protests. it seems timely to say the least. i've been thinking a lot about julian bond and wired rustin a dr. king during this time. i thought i would begin perhaps with the reading from julian bonds essay from -- my goodness, this must be the early 1970s although i don't have the date
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right in front of me. but it's about violence and modestly but who is find an american who is not. maybe we can go to the george floyd protester. >> what page are you on? [inaudible] >> "race man: julian bond selected works, 1960-2015", and i'll be reading from pages 56-57. i'm right at the end of page 56. we need to discover who is and who isn't violent in america. violence is black children going to school for 12 years and receiving five years of education. violence is 30 million -- [inaudible] on earth. violence is having black people -- disproportionate share in vietnam violence is a country where -- more than people.
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violence is an economy -- i love this phrase come socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor. violence is bending $900 a person -- at only $77 a year to feed the hundred people at home. violence is spending $78 billion to kill and $12 $12 billion toe call. violence is 6000 american farmers receiving -- not to work. violence is richard nixon and spiro agnew and going the expression of piece of nights of americans, and the list goes on. what bond is doing is trying to understand that you expand our understanding of the meaning of violence we don't restrict it to things like violent rising, , so we don't restrict it to physical force. [inaudible] -- of violence and seat is a very broad term.
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>> it's interesting that she started with that because obviously when you put this book together you could not have known what we were all going to be facing now. even this event was put together can we did know what would be facing now. so for me the book is more resonant than ever, although since white supremacy and racial discrimination is in our countries dna, it's not surprising that many things julian said many years ago resonate today. but when you said a broad definition of nonviolence, i went to page 230 which is saying we must be careful not to define the ideology and practice of white supremacy too narrowly. scrawled graffiti and individual indignity such as the placements
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nightstick or the jobs, home and education denied. it is rooted deeply in the logic of our market system and the culturally defined and politically enforced crisis paid by different units of labor. and then there's also, the one of the last speeches he gave he talked about we practice dissent then, we must practice this another a nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense that the programs of social uplifting is approaching spiritual death. and then he ends with the present crisis which is one of, was a favorite of his and is one of my favorites. all of that is just today. >> so historians don't like to answer questions like this, pam, but when you think about julian and when you think about the george floyd protest going on
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now, how do you think he would respond? >> i think he would be delighted. he would have been upset at the violence and lawlessness, as we all were, because it detracted from the message of the protests. but he was, you know, black lives matter, , mattered while e was still alive. he was very admiring of that movement. he saw himself in sncc and black lives matter so he waited see himself and sncc in the spirit and i think he would think that we are in a moment, partly, i mean, it's a trifecta i think because we had the pandemic, the
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we had police killings, and we have a president, who is making everything worse. and so here we are. all of that i think is uniting to allow a moment when there might really be some significant change. >> that's going back through his readings about violence and riots, it seems to me he wasn't opposed to much principal ground. he clearly -- problematic because he believed in the inherent dignity of everyone. but when -- issues about the trouble nature of police officers -- or the destruction of property in one statement. would you agree -- [inaudible] would you agree it was supposed to violent so much of principle
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pragmatic grounds? does that make sense to you? >> julian? >> yeah. >> yes. i think there were two views of violence, at least two in sncc and one was it was a tactic, for some it was a tactic and for others it was a philosophy of life. and for julian a was definitely the former and not the latter. he supported people who engaged in self-defense back then, and there was a case involving the naacp and the leader in north carolina who was thrown out of the naacp, and julian always opposed that. and now we know, i'm income i think they had some inkling at the time but now we know how
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many people really were armed during the civil rights movement in the '60s. charlie cobb wrote the book, this nonviolent thing will get you killed, and julian had a couple of experiences during the movement with people who had -- everybody had guns. partly it was the south and it was a cultural thing, and it was a protective thing. we used to talk about how amazing it was that there was never just a full-scale shootout somewhere, and that they were able to maintain a nonviolent movement. and the strength it took to do that. it didn't make them -- and made them incredibly courageous. >> i do want to steer too much into bayard rustin but he's a favorite of man and i know of
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julian's as well. he was in my coming i can 56 when dr. king had armed bodyguards and him. dr. king had guns of zone. dr. king wasn't initially a pacifist. it's interesting to me. i was wondering whether julian ever confessed to having carried a gun during -- >> no. i know he never did. in fact, it was very funny because what's the name of the black panther guy from the west coast? he came to visit atlanta, and julian was supposed to drive him around, so we decided that he should have a gun because he would expect the black panther would expect julian to have gun so somehow, i don't know if his brother james found the gun, but somewhere there was a gun and was like this rusted thing that
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it probably never been shot, or a least -- but it put that on like the dashboard of the car to impress the panthers. [laughing] julian never touched a gun. >> okay. you know, what's interesting to me is that when he was just beginning in sncc, he described itself as a pacifist and he actually traced some of that to his roots at the georgia school in pennsylvania. by the way, , a buddy, i'm comig from pennsylvania and pam is coming from northwest washington, d.c. [inaudible] come from san francisco i believe and thanks to steve from city lights books for being with us and for helping to arrange this. he the initially describe itsels
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a pacifist, which i found really weird. i think i think was because he was opposed to the war in vietnam and that was the war that was happening then, editing as time went on he realized he probably didn't really qualify as a pacifist in the proper sense of the term. when he was called before the draft board and they called his name, and the draft board person said, i know all about you. you're one of those sick downers and then he says, you will never get in this man's army. >> classic. >> and, of course, that was great. he acted as if that was some sort of punishment.
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but they made him, it was not, they classified in as mentally unfit. >> oh, okay. >> not -- >> morally unfit. wow. so we didn't serve in the military at all, and throughout the rest of his life would call those who are usually supported and led wars, draftdodgers, george w. bush. so maybe we can go back to the beginning. look, let me say we are right now and then i'll go back to the beginning. but had he continued the trajectory of thought, what you think is assessment would be right now of the trump era and the trump years? >> i think you would be appalled. trump, the republican field had been formed in at least one debate before julian died.
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so we had watched that, and there were as you will recall many people, 17 or 18 or so when they started, and like most people, julian did not take trump seriously and did not think he was a serious option as the party nominee. from day one he would have been appalled, you know, trump was first elected and lots of people said to me, well, what would julian think? what would julian say? and i said from the beginning that he would say don't agonize. organize. he would have been geared towards making sure that he was a one-term president. but i don't think any of us, well, i can't speak for him or
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even the rest of us, but i did not imagine that it could be this appalling. every day, i mean, today to decide that the 75-year-old in buffalo is, you know, antifa, a provocateur. it's like he outdoes himself on a daily basis. and julian in his standard speech that he was giving for the last three or four years had a line about one party is a spineless and the other party is shameless. and they still are. it was a true then and it is true now. he would also be i think quite disappointed in his own party.
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>> he wrote this one piece in the '70s and says that come in the piece, that -- in the back pocket of either party? should have independent politics, , as he put it, independent politics and it would be a mistake for them to lose leverage by identifying with the democratic party so much or with the republican party, wasn't a real option at that time. i found it interesting -- democrat almost -- or when initially ran for office, wasn't sure which party to register with. his father was a republican. >> right. that was when there were not just decent republicans but black republicans. [inaudible] >> right. but very early in julian's career, you know, with nixon's southern strategy use where the party was going and how i wanted
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to get there. there has really never been an option. ideally, and julian spoke about this, you would have both parties vying for the black vote and then you would have more to show for it. that's not been the case in the last, what, at least 50 years. >> right. you'll have to forgive me for wearing a hat tonight but i did, the what i chose was 42, jackie robinson. like bond he had what he called -- [inaudible] for for a particular party intoa black folks to determine which candidate or party best advanced like interest. that's sort of the dream with the notion that bond had. at least in the late '60s, the early '70s before the southern strategy that pam is talking
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about. [inaudible] i know he agonize over that. he sort of chewed up the -- and gave the speech and said the rage that was expressed following the kennedy shooting was good but nobody transferred that are transitioned it or morphed it into an organization that had policy goals. julie and it seems he was alwas about not only protests but moving protests to politics. can you comment on that? >> well, that was a big subject of debate among sncc people. sncc discussed it endlessly as they discussed most things, and
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argued. there was a lot of discussion and argument about whether julian should run for the legislature because that was not seen by some as being co-opted and not, you know, turning his back on the movement, and what can you accomplish in elective politics? and so a decision was made obviously that it was a good idea, and sncc people ran his campaign and they were pretty strategic about how they ran sncc, and how they handled his campaign. and so the whole idea of running for office was that you're going to accomplish something, and that you had an agenda. and in his case come his first campaign was really what is still, they say, the most
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workable way to get votes, and that was to knock on peoples doors and introduce yourself and find out what the people were thinking, what the people wanted. that was his, that's what he did and that was his initial platform anything that's how he approached politics and political office his whole political career. >> it's interesting, everybody. by the way, sncc stands for studentr nonviolent coordinating committee and will get into a little bit more but when bond was running for office, as pam says he would show up at peoples houses and his assistants or people tagging along with him would have cases of coca-cola and they would go into the backyard of neighbors and if everything worked out okay it would be a barbecue, it would invite the neighbors and bond would say what's wrong with politics and what would you like to see accomplished? he would take that and put into his platform.
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it was the neighbor platform, which is a beautiful way to run, resident present your platform to your neighborhood. you can meet your neighbors and develop your platform from there. let's go back to the beginning. most of you know the history well, but could you sketch some of the family history and maybe tie it to why or the reasons why julie became a civil rights activist? maybe you could talk us through all of his family history. >> michael and pam, before you start talking i'm going to ask you, if you're in between talking and listening if you could meet your mic so when you are done speaking, mute your mic because we getting a lot of feedback on the line. >> okay, sure. pam, did you get my question? >> yeah. julian's family on both sides was educated, and so education
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was seen as the way to a future, the way to health, the way to influence the race. his grandfather was actually a slave. he was born in 1863, and he, along the way he was born in kentucky. that's where the colleges, and at some point he learned about maria, and julian always told the story about his grandfather whose name was james, the original james bond, took his tuition a steer and walked across kentucky to the college, and the college let him in. he could not read or write. he was 16. it took him many years to graduate, but when he did he gave the valedictory address and
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what on to get a theology degree. i always used to say that if you didn't have a doctorate in the bond family you considered under educated. they were all educated on his fathers side. his father himself became, graduated from college when he was like 16. 16. got a doctorate at the university of chicago, became a noted educator named horace mann bond, did research that is still considered groundbreaking on education. he wrote his main book was called negro education in alabama. and then his mothers side was almost as educated, and she herself was a graduate of fisc
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who will come at the of 52 had a degree in library science and then worked as a librarian until she was 92. and debated whether not she should retire then decide that she would. it was a very distinguished family. when his father they can president of lincoln university, and lincoln was known as the black princeton at the time, his father was the first black president, because surely the white people who ran the school didn't think that there were any blacks who are good enough to preside over it, even though it was an all black student body. so you can imagine the politics of that, and doctor bond was not i with the ring persona. and so i know that it was, there were difficulties, but everybody
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came, everyone who's anyone, including albert einstein who, as you can imagine, was invited to speak on every college campus of the united states and spoken very few but he made a point of wanting to go and did go to speak at lincoln. so julian met him, well, he was a very small boy, but the family lore, what julian always told about that was albert einstein said to julian, don't memorize anything that's already written down. it was something julian lived by the hole, his whole life. so it was a fabulously enriching environment, and then they sent julian to the schools were segregated in lincoln pennsylvania and so there were three kids and they sent all of them to private school, and
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julian went to as you mentioned george school and louisville pennsylvania and that was a quaker school where he was the only, there was one other black student who was a day student because he was the son of the cook at school. he spoke very fondly of georgia school always and have many friends, but that was not easy for him either. and there were things like they told come the school told him not to anything that said george school we went into town because they didn't want people to know that that a black student. but it was a wonderful education for which julian was always grateful. and then of course he became a morehouse man and you know what to say about them. you can always tell them morehouse man but you can't tell them much.
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[laughing] >> funny. want to mention everybody, that bond did trace his nonviolence, his interest in nonviolence to georgia school. how to speak truth to power from the early quaker churches he studied with the these are basic quaker principles and he said they formed and thought the rest of his life. so how did julian -- [inaudible] >> because his father left the university, and got a job, dean at atlanta university and that coincided with julian's actuation from high school here the family moved and julian saw a school that he thought was morehouse, which i think was spellman was not morehouse but he thought it was a wonderful looking at campus and he wanted
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to go to school there, so that's out he got to morehouse. and that of course he quit college when he was one semester short of graduation, and so you can imagine how that was received in this family that highly valued education. but also his father i'm sure would consider himself a race man, and so they were clearly supported of the nascent civil rights movement and they were not going to tell julian he couldn't be a part of it. but there were also i'm sure appalled. >> i remember reading that julian had some concerns about going south took a think they would south in 57, if memory serves me correctly, and emmett till and 14-year-old from chicago lynched in mississippi and his mother side to publicize
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the image of his lynched body and "jet" magazine and ebony and other national publications ticked it up. julian must've seen the photo and read other stories. he expressed in trepidation but going south. .. julian describes his first into the civil rights movement. and pam, i'm on page two. it begins this way. it began for me as it did for many more. i'm on page three now. about february 4th, 1960 i was
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sitening a cafe near my college campus in atlanta, a place where students went between classes. lonnie king, he played an important role in julian's life. lonnie approached me, and held up atlanta daily world to the atlanta paper. greensboro students sit in for third day exclamation point. the story told in exact detail how black college students from north carolina and a and t at greensboro had entered a woolworth's store and discovered their demeanor, dress and returned the next day as long as it took to get served. and lonnie king, said have you seen this? yes, i have, i replied. what do you think about it? he inquired? i think it's great.
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think it ought to happen here, he asked. although i'm sure it will happen here, i replied, surely someone here will do it. then to me, as it came to others in those early days in 1960, a query, an invitation, a command, why don't we make it happen here? he and i and joe pierce went to the cafe talking to students and discussed the event and duplicated it in atlanta. the atlanta student movement had begun. so up to that point, it's atlanta really didn't have a student movement, a student movement of black students. in 1960, five years after the montgomery bus boycott, which is telling, especially in atlanta, but there was-- julian was at the beginning of the movement and stayed with the movement until the things collapsed later on, but, pam, did julian talk a lot or very
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much about being involved in the atlanta student movement? >> unmute yourself, pam. i'm sorry. this is the downfall of-- i'm going to mute and unmute. we can't hear you yet. you're still on mute. there you go. >> sorry. as the years went on and reunions were held, you know, at then of course, you reminisced about all of those days and including the immediate proceeding days. he talked about, and i don't know if you have it in the book, but he talked about his arrest and you know, that his arrest was during the atlanta student movement when he was
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arrested at the cafe in city hall. and he always, you know, he always told a very funny story about that. but it wasn't-- you know, it wasn't so funny at the time. i think he was-- you know, the first arrest is always shows you with a bit of trepidation. but you know, but the atlanta students. it came right after that because it was easter weekend 1960. >> can you talk about that? and can you talk about julian's work and what he did and how he found it to be? >> it was because of the atlanta student movement that he was invited to participate in the movement that ended up -- that became the founding movement at raleigh at shaw
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university, called by a woman named ella baker, who's the people who were in. i think they were universally there and julian always said he never called her ella. she was always mrs. baker. she was older-- or ms. baker. she was older, obviously, not a student. she worked for dr. king and, but she was a real strategist and she understood and she gave a speech called "more than a hamburger" and she understood that the movement was more about a lot more than sitting in a lunch counter. and that it was very important that the students have their own organization and not become a part of then the likely organization would have been dr. king's organization. she was a bit subversive
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because she worked for dr. king, but she made it clear to the students that they needed their own, ap that it needed to be bottom up. no top down leadership. so it really, i think, bears the markings of ella baker in its approach to everything. so it was at that meeting-- in fact, when they were-- they formed themselves, they were actually the temporary student nonviolent committee because nobody really knew what, how this was going to play out. and julian became the communications director. so, which meant that his primary responsibility was to get the word out to the rest of the world what was happening in
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the rural areas of mississippi where it was. in the rural areas of alabama and so, he was present at a number of events and his students thought there were events where he was not. that was his job, more important that he be back in atlanta and that be he communicating with the press and the press at the time, several of them, they were really allies in the fight and made a huge difference in terms of how information was gotten out and the way that people
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the judge was bombed and julian got the call and away they went. so he was on the scene and as i say, for several, several events, but his job was really in atlanta and he wrote all the, you know, press releases. >> you know, he had a grass roots approach to getting out word about snick as well which was interesting. he would send a reporter out to the field and they would identify with a local activist or an activist from another part of the country and they were write a story about this activist and sent to the home newspaper back home. and this would spread the word nationally about snick, but in a really locally focused way. and i thought that was a genius way to get out word about snick, but it also built support for snick throughout the country and i think that snick can attribute a lot of success to bond's getting the
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word out. he described himself as an office functionary, i found absurd, but he played a key role in the publicity in terms of getting a lot of recognition for snick and some of its -- from '61 to '65, i believe. in '65 he decides to run for office for the state house and what happens after he gets-- by the way he gets elected with 82% of the vote in his district. pretty high. but what happens after he gets elected? elected? >> after the election snick-- well, there was a protest in
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t tuskegee, and -- because of his having only one kidney, he had to go to the bathroom more often than most and use a bathroom at a whites only bathroom at a bathroom in tuskegee and the owner of the gas station shot him in the back and killed him. and there was already anti-war sentiment bubbling within snick, this is early, this is way before king gave his speech, you know, in new york. and so they issued a statement which was pretty strong about how the approach to the war and how the united states government didn't treat its black citizens well here and then expected them to die on the battlefield. and so that was the excuse that
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the-- the fellow legislators used to vote not to see him. so there is this picture of julian with-- sitting while everyone else is standing taking the oath and he was only 25 and he looks like he's 15 and it's a very, very pathetic picture. and so there was a special election to fill his seat and he won that. and by this time he had sued and he actually lost the suit in the court of appeals. griffin bell, who you might recall, became attorney general under carter, voted not -- voted as part of the two-person, the two-judge majority to-- three judges handled these cases. there was a 2-1 vote not to see him and that his constitutional
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rights had not been violated nor the rights of his constituents until it went to the supreme court and then by this time there was third election and he won his seat a third time. and when he always told the story, when they were in the supreme court, his lawyer -- a lawyer for the state of georgia was arguing and i think it was w wizzer white said is that all you've got. you came all the way up here and said is that all we've got? and julian poked his lawyer, we're winning, aren't we? and they won when they had, you know, nan must decisions in cases that mattered and he won 9-0 and that served to kind of make him, you know, a household name and led to his nomination as vice-president of the 68.
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>> and i want to read to everybody some of his thoughts about the day he was refused a seat in the house. it's a reflection of some of the times he'd been there beforements i've been to the house on two or three times and one occasion with students. some of you will will recognize the name. >> the speaker then, one of the members rose and said mr. speaker, mr. door keeper, get those n's out of the white folk section. so the speaker ordered the door keeper to put in what was the white section of the gallery. the second occasion i'd been up there, i went there with james foreman and foreman is the one that brought into snick and
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foreman was julian's mentor, pretty indebted to foreman, he said, throughout his life. while standing outside of the door of the chamber a white guy came out and said to foreman, i'm the meanest guy in the county, my father and me used to snatch n's off the train and kill them. and those two incidents put the fear of god in me. i thought the members of the legislature and all the hangers-on who are running around the hall chewing tobacco and spitting on the floor, i thought that these men, and i still think some of them are capable of murder and mayhem. i didn't know if i would be physically assaulted or what, but i was very glad i wasn't. so can you imagine running for an office in a place like that? apparently he was isolated during his time in the house. he tried to put through a
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couple of bills, i think one was on cycle cell anemia and one was for an increase in wage, the hourly wages of workers, and there were a couple others, i think about health care. but it was really difficult for bond to be in the house and then even later the senate, where a lot of -- a lot of the legislature through white control things. and many recollections of julian's house and senate there in georgia? >> well, i know that his time in the house was particularly difficult for him and his nemesis was a guy named-- his last name was floyd and his name -- his nickname was sloppy. and for every time that julian served in the house 10 years and every time he was sworn in, in subsequently to his seat, floppy floyd would make a point of leaving the room.
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and so that was the atmosphere in which he had to struggle. but-- and that was one of the reasons that he ran for the senate. and i think the senate was-- the senate as is often the case was the better behaved body and so he liked the senate better. and he did feel a degree of collegiality with his-- some of his fellow-- even ones who didn't share his politics, which was most of them, but he had a better experience in the senate. and generally, you know, liked his time in political office. >> so in 1986, he decides to run for congress in a seat that he helped create. and in 1969, his best friend at
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the time was john lewis and john lewis wrote him a letter encouraging julian, his best friend, to run for this congressional seat and this was back in '69 and bond doesn't run for congress until '86 so i think i'm pretty much sure i have that right. and his best friend john lewis and he and lewis went back to snick. john lewis was the head of snick when julian was there working as communications director and they both left around the same time when the black power emergent movement came into power and snick. and sort of drove john lewis from power and with carmichael in the lead, they moved toward black nationalism and the use of force and self-defense. and there was a different way that bond and lewis were going. but they remained friends and
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in 1986, they find themselves in an event running against each other for congress. and it's a contested -- highly contested race and it leads to a fracture between the two men and i'm wondering if you would talk about that, those difficult days? >> no. [laughte [laughter] >> in the book, julian actually ended up many years later being interviewed about it and you know, it was a very painful time. it was painful for all of their friends in atlanta and so, i kind of -- i prefer for julian's word to speak about how, how it came about and what it meant to him. i will stay there's new documentary about john called "good trouble" or something
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like that. there's a part of the documentary where it talks about john challenging julian to a -- and julian reacting by saying, this is a ploy to get white votes, which he got. julian got a huge majority of black votes, which he always wanted people to know. and john got white votes and that's partly dated back to the expulsion from the legislature and white people who remembered that thinking at the time that julian had committed treason so they weren't going to vote for him 20 years later for anything. and so there was just a review of the movie in "the washington post" and the director is quoted as saying, to her, the experience made john seem more human because he had won the
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seat in a less than honorable way. so julian would approve of that verdict, but other than that, i don't have anything to add to what is in your book that julian says himself about it all. >> for the people here, let me just get a few things, i reefer you to the book. (inaudible) during the campaign it turned personal, especially during the runoff between john and julian. and criticism came from elsewhere, but john accused julian of drug use. accused him of being a slacker, lazy, and in the legislature. he accused hif of being out of touch with the black masses,
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which is interesting because julian won the black vote in the race and also accused julian of-- not accused him, but said that julian was somebody who worked for him and julian took offense at that because i think rightly show, there are a lot of co-equals in snick. so after the race, julian moved to washington d.c. there's another organization that's pretty important in this life and that's the southern poverty law centers. could you talk about your experience and julian's work there, too? >> sure, julian was the first president of the southern property law center founded in 1971 and that was-- can because morris, one of the co-founders asked julian and had never met him, but he asked to meet with julian, told him that he was setting up this
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organization. morse had been in publishing, it sold his publishing company for a lot of money and was going to spend the rest of his very long career doing good. and so julian liked what he heard and became the first president of the southern party law center which really meant he would never-- the center is located in montgomery and he was never in montgomery. he really signed their fund raising letters which were very successful as most people are aware now, as the center approaches its 50th year. and i actually worked at the center with my first job, law job out of law school and when there were three of us, three lawyers, the two co-founders and me, and now of course, there are, you know, 150. so it was a far-- the organization that julian had an association with it, and
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his, you know, it directed his life. and he at some point stepped down as president and then he was up and then on the board. >> so it's a progressive issue, you said. and let's just go through some of them. and they expect that some people will want to ask questions, maybe if you could monitor those, that would be great. maybe if we could move to some issues like reproductive rights and other key issues. but the reproductive rights, could you talk about that and your work, too? >> well, i think julian was proud of the fact that the civil rights movement had influenced and assisted subsequent movements, anti-war and certain the women's movement. because reproductive rights was a part of that, a natural thing
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for him to support and gay rights. i think -- i don't remember a moment when julian suddenly said i think gay rights are important. it was just assumed. it was a continuum of, you know, different groups earning rights to which they were all entitled. and i think some of the opposition in the black community to gay rights was religiously based. julian was not a religious -- he was not churched so that didn't get in his way in terms of how he felt about gays and -- and, you know, i think in my preface in your book, i write about julian's admiration for frederick douglas and that frederick douglas had said you
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must strike the first blow and julian, i think, did that his whole life. whether it was the war in vietnam on gay rights and so he became one of the few national black leaders to endorse gay rights generally and marriage equality specifically. >> so at the other decision, if i remember correctly-- >> at the obert, yes, with him, with chad griffin the ahead of the human rights campaign and he had-- his husband had died. you know, they had been married -- he was dying when they got married. by the time the case was argued. but, yes, yes, we were there. >> one of the things that i always liked, was that he wasn't willing to restrict
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civil rights merely for the-- black civil rights movement. and share that with women and men. [inaudible] >> are you still there? okay, my screen went blank. >> yeah, you're good. >> okay, so he was always willing to share the movement. some people, it seems to me, weren't as willing to share it as julian was, but he made the intersection to analysis and the connection between the black movement and other movements did follow. and dr. king wanted that movement to expand from focusing on non-- on acomplications issues to race issues, economics issues, war and peace issues. dr. king did the same thing and i think that bond was pulling in dr. king--
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. >> coretta king was a big supporter of gay rights. we don't know what dr. king for sure would have said or done, but what she said. >> the first time i met was when i was working on martin luther king and the other-- i talked to josey about this, but then i real leased that there was not a religious bone in julian's body. he didn't particularly come out of the move there. but nevertheless, it was unusual. but as the-- who said in australia at one point that in australia she knows in her soul that her father didn't take a bullet for same-sex marriage. and i asked julian about that and i effected him to first tiptoe arndt the usual, but he
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came out right now. she hadn't read her father's works. and he went on a diatribe on bernice king. and she was-- pam, maybe you can tell us a story about julian's decision to boycott the funeral of coretta king. >> it was because it was going to be at eddie long's church and eddie long was going to be there and he was quite sure that coretta wouldn't want her service to be there. i don't know if you remember, but it got worse because they disinvented harry belafonte and nobody had been closer to the king family and done more for
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the family in the wake of the assassination than harry so that was an unforget anl thing to do and as julian, he was happy that he had not graced the place with his presence. i will say that bernice seems to have become somewhat more enlightened since then. >> haven't seen as much evidence of that as i'd like. >> well. >> so, 9/11 happened while you two were together. maybe you could get julian's reaction to war on terror. there's not a whole lot-- there's some of it in the book, but not a whole lot. >> you know, i mean, i guess we all remember where we were and we were on our way, driving to
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charlottesville. julian was teaching at the university of virginia at the time. and then he had a speech like the very next weekend, somewhere in massachusetts and it was to maybe a y or something to do with kids and they dependent want to cancel it and so we drove-- we were driven to the speech. obviously, nobody was flying. and that was when we went-- and we went by the-- what happened. that's what had been the tow towers. so, i remember all of that, but julian, you know, i guess his main reaction to 9/11 was to oppose the war in iraq as not the proper response to what had happened on 9/11. >> at first the naacp was open
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to war, but certainly weren't open to the war on terror. and it was evident, bush's direction of those war efforts to be pretty loud, but do you want to jump in or a question that you might be able to answer? >> yeah, the first from lorraine, the bond quote at the beginning makes him sound like a socialist which i would love. do you know if he was even though he never articulated in public? public? >> i was-- he certainly wasn't a capitalist. so i guess that makes him a socialist.
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socialist. >> the next question-- and he also talked about community socialism and as opposed to what he called and many others, lashof-- and leaders were looking at the leaders and entrepreneurs. and this is something that robinson was interested in black capitalist and bond never went that way because he was sharply opposed to black capitalist movement and instead spoke of the need for community socialism. if you read some of the book it's amazing because he had this expansive view of the state and what he calls the war father state. 1.9% of the budget goes to the pentagon, 12% to welfare. if you could just transfer some
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resources and get people not dissimilar. i don't know if #, pam, at one point he talked about disappointment giving so much to farmers. they got $25,000 to not produce. he said why don't we give it to poor people, give it to farmers? he had a radical notion of the welfare state. there's one point in the book and if you just hold on a second. i hope i can find it. no, i'm not going to be able to find it now, but he lays down policy -- a whole list of policies he think will make the good stay and it's telling. >> is it on page 78 and 79 where he's really talking about, he says the united states is a colonial society speech?
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>> that's exactly. that works, man, i give you an a-plus for that one. '78 and '79. >> income distribution, tax structure. elimination of property, primarily-- poverty, excuse me, primarily by full employment supplemented by a negative income tax. national work force planning, training, retraining and an educational system that has vocational. health care. making sure every american has a nutritional diet. operation of vital services that's a key point, isn't it. >> how vital ver ises for feed, not for profit, including an out a bit rail passenger
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system, whether through breakup. a consumer reputational board of all major industries. and basis of the need. there's evidence back to pam's point. >> and he had-- i think he would have been a bernie bro. he met him summer 2015 and th then-- >> and back in and out, if you would. >> yeah, the next question from al son, judy wrote a comic book of vietnam, could he tell us about it. >> julian was proud of his comic book. he had a big collection of black collectibles which i gave to the museum. i did not give the comic book
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and it is on display there and you turn to the page that talks about julian's election to the georgia house and i definitely-- it doesn't say where they got it so he would have been really excited that they have the comic book bus he able didn't do the-- he wrote the kamik book and it was acically a treatist and why the war in vietnam should be opposed and again, it was kind of early and now there are a lot of comic books dealing with serious interests when we no his friend john lewis has. >> and it--
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>> did he share the comic books, as john lewis, they were an effective propaganda tool? >> yes, i think so. i think so. that's how he wanted this xhm oakland county book, you know, to-- it's an anti-war comic book to be regarded. >> thank you. >> yeah. so barbara asked did harry belafonte and julian with a relationship? i read belafonte's bio and he didn't say much about it. >> they were friends. harry took a group of snick people to africa for like a mon month, you know, this was early. that was a fabulous treat for them. they met heads of state and learned a lot. we went to england with terry
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and his then wife, so they were not, you know, they were not best friends, but they were definitely friends and julian was a big admirer of harry. >> this makes me think of this as well. find when he talks about the 1963 march in washington, and make sure that the entertainers were well taken care of and apparently he gave a coax to sammy davis, jr. as part of his job and sammy davis, jr. said, thanks, kid. >> na was the highlight of julian's march on washington, the schmick obviously was a foreign investigation. that was-- although snick also with the
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one gorges that had the, dar gu -- they wouldn't let him give it. they didn't have a lot of pull given their use and who was actually running the march on washington. >> so heather booth says there's no person i admire more than julian. in these times of challenge what do you think that julian would think about the current black lives matter movement and the police, what do you think he would call for us to do now? >> hi, heatherment we talked a little about the black lives matter movement at the beginning of this. julian was a big admirer and he would be very happy what's going on now, you know, as far as the protests upset about
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this state of vandalism and lawlessly, but that seems, we hope to have tempered now and it's not disappeared. and he would-- i don't know, i doubt that he would be in favor of abolition of the police, but he would be in favor of what he should be meant by defunding, which is isn't taking their money away. all of this will be fleshed out in the coming days, but i think it's subject, one is redirecti redirecting. and not having the cops to do for i think so this which they're not trained. like the patrol and all of that. and he would be -- he would be in favor of that. and certainly, getting rid of
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immunity, there's a lot that needs to happen and he would be a big proponent of-- he would be in favor of the legislation introduced today and that-- and then some. i think, you know, i think. and demilitarization at some point when we started giving all of these military equipment to the cops. that's a whole other thinking that that was their proper role. and today, there's just new stuff, video about killing another person. so, it's a moment, we hope. >> i don't want frequently you see the phrase police state. and often said that looks
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i.v.ed into the police state so you think the-- >> and julian was afraid of the police and julian was harassed by the mr. is, -- police and so, you know, a situation and a suit don't protect you. >> heather says she also admires and loves you, pam. thank you for a wonderful conversation. so this question is for both of you. what books, films and documentaries are you reading and watching now that you'd recommend beyond "race man", micha michael. >> pam, do you want to jump in? >> well, i'm reading -- well, i'm -- i do -- i usually try to read some fiction and
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nonfiction at the same time. and the fiction is not necessarily great literature and especially now when i need to escape into mysteries and contemporary novels. so now i'm reading a novel called "before the fall", which is really great and i'm reading the new biography of frederick douglas, which is also really, really good. >> to be honest, one of the things that i focused on in my reading is what you post on facebook on the city lights books page. i recommend that everybody go there, some wonderful things, especially right now and you're going to get some nice reviews on the black lives matter movement and the george floyd protests.
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and some are bubbling forward during covid. i've been reading a lot of that. >> that's great. we always appreciate the book recommendations. i've been porching in some good recommendations for terrace. control back up, there about ella baker and snick in the fall. and check those out. i don't know, pam, if you're in the book about snick that's coming up. >> no, who is doing it? >> the university of georgia. >> oh, great. no, well, let me put a drug in, i have a book coming out. julian wrote it a lecture for the classes he taught on the civil rights movement.
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with harris who wrote the rebellious life of mrs. rosa park, the definitive rosa par parks. >> and we'll see if we can get the link in the chat as well. i recommend that just recently came out and it's sitting on my desk is the one by joseph martin and malcolm, the new york times had an interesting piece on that recently so i would encourage you to look at that one as well. so, here is pam's book coming o out. be sure to click on that. so let's get to the next question. lee asks cons stance curry spoke to a group of us at agnes state college about her work
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with julian and snick. are there others that he built lasting relationships with you've been able to see over the years. >> pam, do you want to take this one? >> yes. yes. many, many. judy richardson, who was one of the producers of "eyes on the prize, working within snick" spoke at julian's memorial service. charlie, ivanhoe, donaldson, many, many, he recorded his snick colleagues as life long comrades and friends. he had seen them, some of them he saw regularly.
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donny delve of new york and there's a book by snick women, hands on the freedom file. and [inaudible] . >> pam, is it fair to say that his main mentor. >> he was older, just enough older and you know, at a time when if mattered. later in life it wouldn't have matter if jim was five years old. but he had a mature level of experience adding to he was brilliant in many ways anddy
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things, you know, snick had photographers, which -- all of whom were trained by the noted fashion photographer with the famous guy high school' name-- >> john-- [inaudible] yes, this guy on your cover. and so there's this photographic record because-- only because of jim. he told everybody at snick write it down so there's a record, a written record that wouldn't have existed and you know, he really held them together and was exceedingly important to the-- i mean, i think after ella baker, jim foreman was the most important person, certainly
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among the adults. >> so our last community question is, what do you think julian would say about mitt romney, who he met when romney was running, marching and saying black lives matter now? >> he, you know, i think he would like it. i mean, you know, why not? you need all of the allies and i think that there would be a lot of things that he doesn't like about mitt romney, certainly wouldn't have voted for him, but, you know, that's the saying about we have no permanent friends, no permanent enemies, just permanent interest. and right now, if he's interested in, you know, racial justice, good for him and
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welcome. >> yeah, that's a really important thing. he was interested in building constituencies and building alliances around other issues. his appointment with snick, it stops forming alliances after carmichael and brown came into powerment he felt they stopped forming alliances and lost support. he was always building alliances. >> so we have a comment from gill robinson. gill says i advocated on gay issues in the '80s. jay is one of the family force and in nos days, quick-- in those days. >> that's nice, thank you. >> and thank you for your work.
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we appreciate it. we've got about five minutes left. i want you all a chance to satisfy any closing thoughts that you have or anything you want to make sure that folks know about julian that we didn't get to? >> how about i go first and use julian's words. from page 227 and-- and certainly not his, interesting, my grandfather born into slavery barely able to read and right, a road 100 miles across the country to knock on the door in college and 14 years later asked him to give the commencement address when he graduated. these are his words. in every cloud, the pest myth hold every aspect of the storm and omen of the evil and the
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number shadowed across his path is working well. you forget that cloud bring light and preparing for sunshine and growth and hardship and adversity near the end of the race as individuals for greater efforts and grander victories. bond had a politics of hope as a race man, he had to have, to move forward in advance as you did. there's a great deal of-- >> now, that was a perfect way to end. he usually said that-- gave that quote when he gave commencement addresses and julian always seniored himself an optimist and you know, if
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there is no hope there is no change. so you have to have hope and we would want us to have hope now. >> and resist. >> thank you, everybody. thank you to the city lights folks. >> thank you. >> thank you both. this was so lovely. thanks for the wonderful questions in the audience. i'm going to put the link to race man purchase your books and if you're on a west coast, you can purchase direct from city lights, they're ayn credible resource and like michael said follow them on social media to stay up with what they're doing. and i also dropped a link in the chat to the donation link. this is for all people. we're glad that you're here. if you have money to give, that's how we do our work. >> we're primarily donor
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supported and no amount is too big or small, and that's for social platforms and keep our work going through this hard time. if you're able to give, it's much appreciated, but you know, it's very rare that we get to sit and be in conversation with a living legend mike pam horowitz so thank you, pam, for sharing such intimate programs. >> thank you, very well-researched and collected book. thanks for all the work that city lights does. ♪ c-span has unfiltered coverage of the white house, supreme court, and policy events. you can watch all of c-span's programming on-line, or through the radio app. be a part of the daily washington journal program or
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