tv U.S. House of Representatives CSPAN November 4, 2009 5:00pm-8:00pm EST
breaking news an 11th body found in a convicted rapist's home now accused serial killer in court and new sickening details coming out about the decades-old rape that sent him to prison in the first place. the crime so vicious that he was denied a parole for year and this shocker, didn't receive any rehabilitation for sex crimes in jail, asked for it and denied it. and this, young kids not even teenagers online every day, 12-year-olds on facebook, myspace, twitter, do parents even know what they're exposing their kids to? sexual predators, anonymous bullies, sickos out.
there is your innocent 12-year-old ready for all that? call in, love to hear from you. the number 1-877-tell-hln. e-mail us at cnn.com/primenews or text us at hln tv, start your message with the word "prime." it's your chance to be heard. welcome. this is "prime news." i'm mike galanos. breaking news this hour police getting ready to tear apart the walls of an accused serial killer's home expanding the search for more bodies. moments ago we found out from the coroner there are now 11 victims, some sick details coming out about the suspect anthony sowell convicted rapist from cleveland, ohio, the case that sent sowell back to prison -- or sent him to prison in the first place a pregnant woman choked so hard her body tingled, bound, gagged, tied up, escaped with her life and climbed onto the roof and screamed to neighbors for help.
she could be lucky in all this, a survivor. moments ago police identified the first victim, 52-year-old tanya carmichael. joining us now her daughter, danita carmichael. first off, our condolences. how did you find out and were you fearful of this all along? >> well, yeah. this is what i've been saying since monday, when, you know, we were called to the coroner's office and since this story broke, we automatically knew that this was going to be her. you know, it's been a year and i've lived here all my life and never seen anything like this. so, to be a part of it, it's just amazing how this happened. it's amazing. but, you know, we got confirmation. my grandmother, we were here to cleveland detective homicide detectives showed up and they gave us the news, this afternoon that this, indeed, was my mother.
>> how is your grandma holding up? >> as you can imagine, it's heartbreaking for the whole family but this was her child. this was her daughter, her angel, her princess and now, we will never see her again. she's gone. >> donnita, do you live in this area, near -- >> no i didn't live in the area where mr. sowell live. i far from the area and either did my mother. she lived in a suburb, a suburb of cleveland so she lived some distance away from him. but, the response from the cleveland police is a little upsetting because it's not the truth in the case. she was a resident there and she be living in warrensville heights but her vehicle was found in the city of cleveland, not on 115th but on 118th. so the information that was said at the press conference is already inaccurate. like he said, he needs to stop and check his records before he
opens his mouth, obviously, about a report he knows nothing about because they didn't want to take it and ultimately he's going to find out that there never was a report made on her missing in cleveland. the report was taken in warrensville but however it goes, she was found in cleveland. >> so a year ago when she went missing, did you have any idea what had happened to her, have any idea she had been in this area of anthony sowell's home? >> well, like myself and plenty of other people in the city and living in this area. we ran through the area where he lived quite often. you know, there's family members who live couple streets over or five-mile radius away. it's a local area just like i live there, near there. i, myself, i leave in the cleveland barfield border so. i, if you want to say, live near mr. sowell because i live within five miles of his home but
that's neither here or there. all of these women have not yet been identified. unfortunately, my mother was the first victim to be identified, and that gives us closure on a -- knowing where she is. but, we're not happy about the way the police are trying to spin it. >> and donnita, has the anger set in in the fact that a convicted rapist, a brutal rapist was able to lure in what is believed to be up to 11, maybe more women at this point? >> yes. that -- that's where i am. i have got my closure and now myself and my family members are searching for justice and not from mr. sowell but from other individuals within our community. it's -- it's not right. and now it is 11 bodies and if the tape of me from monday that i did with miss dawn kendricks from nox on 19 news you'll see in that interview i stated then
before we got this confirmation i didn't believe it was just six or seven missing family members. i thought it was going to be many more. i think we are going to go as high as 15, 16 on this case because he has five years to do what he did before anybody thought about stopping him. >> donnita, again, our condolences to you and your family, our thoughts and prayers are with you. >> thank you. >> her mom identified as one of the victims. when we come back we'll bring in our experts and talk about the past crimes of anthony sowell and about the monitoring of this man or lack thereof and we'll take your calls 1-877-tell-hln.
welcome back to it "prime news" on hln. breaking news we now have 11 bodies recovered at the home of this convicted rapist, in court today. to mike tobin, "cleveland plain dealer" covering this. we have five aggravated murder charges this guy is facing right now. update us on that and also what's going on at the home. does the search continue? >> right. yesterday he was charged with five counts of aggravated murder presumably for the first five victims they found at the house. obviously it's expected more charges will be filed in the immediate future. at the home yesterday we were told that police were going to keep digging in the backyard where a lot of the bodies were found and then possibly even sort of take apart the interior of the house, if necessary. we were told that would happen today, but it hasn't yet. >> okay. >> and police said they may do
that soon but it doesn't look like it's going to happen today. >> all right. let's bring in john lucich. you have to at this point, you have to tear that house completely apart? and besides that are investigators opening up cold cases in the cleveland area now over the last five-year period since he was let out of prison? >> oh, they are going to have to because these women are missing from someplace and if they have been identified through missing records right now they have to start going back. a lot of this will depend on, you know, this guy i believe will be cooperative in his interview somewhere down the road. and i believe that, when we start pulling stuff apart, pulling off the walls and going in the basements and even digging in the basement they may find other clues, you will find earrings you may find additional bodies but something the cops cannot -- this guy has had 11 bodies in his house now probably one of the worst crimes in a long time. >> kevin with us in california, go ahead. >> caller: yeah, listen i've been watching your coverage and this is a travesty and injustice
on multi levels. i ufndz at the beginning of the show you reported this guy, stoelz, when he was incarted for the first rape he asked or tried to seek therapy while incarcerated and denied that. what did the criminal justice system think this guy would do eventually when released. eventually they will get released unless they get life. he didn't. >> good point. john, how normal is that where someone would be denied? this guy committed a brutal rape back in 1989, a young girl, 21-year-old, three months pregnant waiting for her boyfriend at a motel, somehow he lures her into the car, lures her and rapes her says he will kill her. somehow he falls asleep and she escaped. with all that said to deny him a sex offender program, what's up with that. >> is the garrido case on multiple levels. first of all the fact he was released and no one picked up
the fact he was a danger. he realized he needed treatment, asked for it and refused it. then they let this guy out and don't monitor this guy despite the fact they know he is a predator and on top of everything else for three years a bad smell they can't identify, scraping the sewers, cleaning things out and still can't identify it sitting there. i believe if the city had done its job identifying that by bringing in possible dogs back then these women especially the one missing in 2008 wouldn't be dead over three years these bodies most likely have been there. >> brenda, you talk about a sex offender program a lot of people, myself included say this wouldn't have helped. this guy it is impossible to rehabilitate a guy like this. your thoughts. >> you know, i don't know if he could have been rehabilitated or not because i don't know the details of the case but what i do know a good sex offender program is designed to deter further acting out violent behavior and this guy didn't get help. who's to say and i really like to believe that when a person
asks for help, they're asking because they know they need it and they would be granted that help and it's not a privilege. it's a protection for the rest of us when we have somebody who is this disturbed asking for help and we refuse it, that doesn't make sense. >> i agree with you on that front. whether or not it would have helped, different argument. if he asked for it, he should have gotten the help for sure, brenda, i agree on that front. >> we do know that people who are sex offenders, receive intensive help and go on to be part of a -- there's a 12-step program for people who sex addicts where the addicts themselves monitor one another and there's a lot of self-help and a lot of support. that kind of thing keeps this very isolated, lonely person who can act out in the isolation because nobody, but nobody is keeping their eyes on him. >> this guy did take other courses about controlling violence, anger, rage, he went through an alcoholics anonymous program so he did -- he received some treatment but then you find out, hey, a month after he was let out of prison he's on a sex
fetish website basically looking for victims and john that gets back to the monitoring or lack thereof on this guy, right? >> absolutely. total failure of the system. in fact, i'd like to get a -- there needs to be an investigation in all parts of this failure and i want to find out what these investigators were doing, the probation investigators that are to be following up on these guys, what are they doing on a daily basis and how much time -- remember this guy not only was identified by the state but sought i help himself identified back to him i need help. i want to see if this guy, what the type of level of monitoring he should have had. >> one of the things we know for sure. >> brenda, we've got to run, i'm sorry. >> that's okay. >> we could probably talk an hour about this one. >> yes. >> as it continues to unfold. we'll have you back, john. thank you, as well. coming up a community search will commence this weekend as we still try and -- try and figure out what happened to morgan harrington. college student. goes to a metallica concert and has not been seen for over two weeks.
will we finally find 20-year-old morgan harrington this weekend? again, she's the college student last seen at a metallica concert in charlottesville, virginia somehow ended up in the arena parking lot outside the arena and vanished over two weeks ago. her parents are launching a full-scale three-day massive search and getting huge help
teaming up with the father who has lived through this nightmare ed smart, again his daughter elizabeth young girl kidnapped from her bedroom and held captive nine months until she was found. morgan's parents are doing all they can for that type of happy ending with morgan. >> be strong. we are trying to find you. we will never stop. we are trying, honey. hang on. and to the person who has taken morgan from us, please, just let her go. she has so much more to live and so much more to give. please let her come back to her family. we need her. >> there's the impassioned emotional plea from a mom, gil harrington who joins us along with morgan's dad, dan harrington. our heart goes out you to,
again, as we hear that. >> thank you so much. >> let's look ahead to the weekend search, you joined forces with ed smart. gil tell us about the search. what's going to happen this weekend? >> actually dan probably knows more. >> okay, go ahead, dan. >> yeah, it's -- we're teaming up with the laura recovery center for missing children coming into the charlottesville area to mobilize a community search and rescue team for friday, saturday, and sunday. and they were -- they participated in the search for elizabeth and that's how we became acquainted with them. >> gil, how hopeful are you? >> i have to hold onto hope because once you give up hope, you fall into despair and hope is keeping us forward motion. >> same you with, dan? >> yes. yes. we -- we remain hopeful and, you know, pray every day that morgan returns home. >> are police giving you any new information, dan? >> well, there's -- there was no
new information today except i just realized on the news they apparently are searching a construction site in charlottesville today and that was just reported apparently in the charlottesville news. >> okay. let's bring in investigative reporter following this, michelle, do you have that information or any other new information on morgan's case. >> i just got off the phone with virginia state police about 20 minutes ago. what one of the investigators told me they received about 350 leads in morgan's case already, this is great news and there's been a lot of good credible information to help them nail down a timeline. you can take a detailed look at that timeline and at fi findmorgan.com and virginia state police have been able to put that together to be able figure out exactly when she went missing on the 17th to when her belongings were found on the 18th and move forward. what investigators are doing right now going out on tips like the one in charlottesville and surrounding areas and, you know,
they will send teams out immediately if they have good credible information and that's what they hope for this weekend, as well. i just received an email on my blackberry about the virginia state police and their efforts to team up with the family this weekend, friday, saturday, and sunday. tomorrow night, there is a meeting that's taking place that everyone can attend, volunteers are encouraged to come out and be a part of that and to learn from investigators exactly what to look for on the ground. >> okay. real quick, michelle, is the timeline any different from what we've known, she separates from her friends 8:40, outside the arena until about 9:30? >> that's correct. >> that's where we stand. we'll get more specific on that take a quick break, more with her parents and with michelle and we'll take your calls, comments, questions. you know the number 1-877-tell-hln.
welcome back. i know many of you are on facebook, myspace, twitter. how about your kids? experts say it's a growing trend for 12-year-olds on social networking sites. some on there every day and maybe younger than 12 ignoring any age requirement. i know it's the age of technology. but if we stopped and really thought about what our kids are going to be exposed to through all this child sex predators trolling these sites looking for young kids and you are telling me some 12-year-old will be savvy enough to pick up on a sicko trying to lure live bait here? do we want to expose our kids to that? call in. 1-877-tell-hln is the phone number. let's bring in dr. lynne young,
psychologist. s. berry warren also with us and welcome back john lucich former criminal investigator also with expertise in cyber crimes. john starting with you. we know kids are going to be on the internet. we are not putting our head in the sound here but want to sound the alarm there are dangers out there. let me read a quick stat, february myspace kicked out 90,000 sex offenders, john they are on those sites and trolling for kids, aren't they? >> exactly. when we grew up our parents were teaching us things. today because of technology, kids growing up with technology, the kids have to teach the parents so the parents are way behind in technology and don't understand it. these kids can do things parent don't even know how to do, not only online but has to do with digital devices. all of a sudden this kid has more knowledge than the parents
and almost impossible to track the kids. while there are software products out there it is the parent that probably needs the kid to help install sdplit that's the story we here kids teaching parents to navigate through modern technology. judy, how rampant is that the kid is more knowledgeable hence the parent can't teach the kid. >> it's very rampant which is why the organization i'm with webwisekits priority is education parents to educate their kids rather than vice ver va online there. are 35 million kids online from kindergarten to 12th great. so, it's critically important we reach the parents so that they can be an important partner in their kids' online use. >> great point there. dr. linda young, what frightens me is when you think of a 10 to 12-year-old, they're just not savvy enough, i mean, to know when, hey, something is fishy here. someone is coming on to me and they may not realize it. >> well, it's true that they're
not savvy enough to know lots of things but, in fact, it's primarily the girls between about 15 and 17 who are being involved with online predators and those online predators are typically older than they are and the girls know that they are older so they do realize they're involved with someone and it is titillating to them and they feel empowered by it. one of the things we have to make sure we are careful about not overemphasizing how young someone is or that they'll be blindsided by someone online because those are the rarest of cases. the most common of cases is someone who's in their mid teens talking with someone she knows is older and that's what we have to talk to our kids about. >> right. succumbing to that danger or that somewhat of a just a wrong adventure for lack of a better term. let's get a call in, linda with us in california. your thoughts here? >> caller: hi, mike. >> hi, linda. >> caller: boy are you hitting the nail on the hid my
12-year-old son knows more about working than the computer than i do and last year playing with his playstation portable a video game playing a psp. >> hand-held thing. >> right. i didn't even have internet at the time and i found out he was with the neighbor boy a year older and they were getting -- they were downloading hard-corinternet porn. i always thought you had to be 18 and have a credit card. we -- it was wi-fi, streaming from the neighbor's computer and they sitting outside and getting hard core porn and i was horrified. >> what have you done since, linda? >> caller: i took away the psp i monitor his play now. i got network -- finally we got internet except i monitor him and he knows i can track where he's gone so i think we have the problem worked out for now but a lot of parents don't even realize that it's not just a video game player, that they can get wi-fi and download porn and those kids know how to do it.
>> lin today, thanks for the call and for sounding the alarm if all of us parents out there. judy, she depend the right thing, right, i mean once -- you'd like to hear she was monitoring from the get-go but once you find out something fishy is going on you've got to re-set the rules, right? >> absolutely. i think that a parent is a partner with a kid online. >> right. >> and that they need to talk to them about what to -- that they expect wi expect, what the consequences will be if those rules are not followed there. are lots of parental controls on wireless devices as well as on the internet. and parents need to take advantage of those and they, also, need to be online as much as they can when their kids are online so that they are watching what their kids are experiencing. >> right. let's get another call in. the question, again, how young is too young for these kids to be on these social networking sites we're hearing 12, 20. melissa from ohio, your thoughts here? >> caller: yeah. you know. sexual predators are obviously a
huge concern as far as these social networking websites but i think that something parents don't realize i'm 24 and i've been using these kind of sites since i was 18. is the kind of content you can find on these sites like sexually explicit pictures things that really border pornographic material things i don't want my husband to see let alone an 11-year-old. >> that's a great point. what are we exposing our kids to especially when we don't monitor and who's dropping that bait? one more statistic for you as we head to break. center for missing and exploited children reporting 2600 incidents, this is back in '05, probably a larger number now of adults using the internet to entice children. just what our caller, melissa, is talking about, enticing them with images. things like that, just to it lure our kids in. sounding the alarm here. we want to hear from you. call in on this topic, 1-877-tell-hln.
welcome back to "prime news" on hln, continuing our conversation how young is too young for our kids to be on these social networking sites, myface, facebook, twitter because we're hearing 10, 12 years old. the sites suggest 13 should be a start. let's read a facebook comment from holly. she says my son was not allowed until he turned 18. kids get enough socialization in school, church and after-school
activities. makes a good point there and i think a lot of people -- it's tough to prove scientifically but what is this doing to the social skills of our kids when all the conversations are typed out, you know, we'll talk about that and, also, this it point, that cyber bullying exposing our kids to that on the social networking sites a report nearly half of all teenagers report they've been a victim of cyber attacks. we bring in judy westberg president of webwise kids. that's frightening which sadly enough has led to teen suicides, can judy. >> it is terribly tragic it really is and we have to educate our kids how to not become victims of cyber bullying and also how to not be a cyber bully. it's critical. >> i mean, you are talking about the megan meyer case, 13 years old bullied it turns out by the mom. the two friends had an argument and the other friend's mom steps in, a horrible case. another 13-year-old, ryan
halligan and the list goes on. let's bring in doctor linda young on this, our psychologist. that's part of the social skills that concerns me. when you can just type out an insult or the bullying, you never see the response. you never see the tears welling up and we just lose all empathy and i think you're turning -- the generation could turn heartless. your thoughts on that, linda? >> you're exactly right. that walled garden, that screen behind which you hide keeps you from seeing the reaction of the other person so it emboldens kids, not just kids but adults, too to say things on blogs and e-mail and all kinds of things. so, one of the things we really have to talk to the kids about in schools, as well as in homes is how to think before they act and imagine that whatever they put online can be read by the entire world the second that it's there but one of the other things that's most important to teach is just the pause between it a stimulus and a response. so that that impulse control becomes the main thing that needs to be learned during the
teen years and parents can teach it and in school they can learn it and i do think that it's all right to be on those social networks. >> right. >> it's not that you should ban the entire medium, a place what people do good things and have wonderful ways of communicating. >> linda, can we teach that? i like the rule, a deep heart-felt conversation or even a teenagers are going to break up, that should be face to face or a phone call. >> absolutely. >> it shouldn't be a one-line type and you're just on with your life. i think that just breeds of selfishness. >> totally agree. no matter what age you are. face to face is the way to go not texting, instant messaging or online on a social network for others to see f. it is private and important or emotional doing it face to face is the best way to go and always will be. the idea of balancing time online and time in face-to-face communication. not strictly one or another. we live in a world where both are presents and not going to be
taken away. >> no, it's not. judy, what about that some parents might see some of these statistics and say, that's it, it's out, i mean, is that the way to go or a strict monitoring and partnering and involvement from parents. >> i don't believe that parents should yank their children off of the internet social networking sites are something a little different. i think they should definitely have rules about how to use those sites and monitor what their kids are doing online. but, we live in a cyber world and we're not going to keep our children away. i mean, 20% of 5-year-olds are now online. and younger and younger kids are being online. so, the key is educating them to be their own first line of defense. educating the parents and the parents can educate the kids. >> judy, real quick i want to ask you, what age do you think before we go, we're hearing 10, 12, the sites say 13. what is a safe age for a kid to be on a social networking site. >> well, i think the sites say 13 for a very good reason. >> you like that age? >> i think that it's hard to
determine an exact age because there are so many different factors but i can tell you the truth. the truth is that tweens are not telling the truth and they are going on those sites as early as age 10. so, it is our responsibility, as a society, to reach those kids with these messages and equip them to be their own first line of defense before they go on the sites. >> if 13 seems like a decent benchmark but that's 13 with involvement from parents and monitoring from parents. >> that's right. >> john, back to your point, we've got to run, you like the idea of 13 but with strict parent involvement here? >> there has to be. their parents are working and often using this as a digital babysitter but it is a tool and like all must be used with a degree of responsibility and supervision. >> guys, thanks, great conversation hopefully we got the word out to some parents there. we appreciate it. coming up actress sandra bull
welcome back. how is that we have actress sandra bullock in one corner and her husband's porn star ex-wife in the other and 5-year-old in the middle? a custody battle and sounds like it is getting ugly. well, there's the porn star mom linda mulder in an spl music video with the band blink 182. she used to be married to sandra bullock's husband but was in
jail for tax evasion, now out and fighting for permanent custody of their 5-year-old daughter. in fact the ex-porn star claims step-mom sandra bullock wants custody because she is too old to have kids of her own. all right. let's listen to janine, porn star mom here as she's talking about her lifestyle, she wants everybody to know about the way she lives now and this is janine talking on "good morning, america". >> what would give her the right to take away my daughter? you know, this is my daughter. i'm the best mother i can be. i've absolutely made horrific choices in the past. i've had my share of drugs but then -- then there's a huge portion of my life, a ten-year span where there's nothing, i didn't need it. sandy doesn't know what goes on in my house. i'd love for her to. please, come over, you know, i'll make dinner, you know,
let's sit down, two women. >> let me go to vicki ziegler on that first off that sounds well and good, vicki, but come on some points here and facts. she's been to jail. porn star, and she's married now to a shady character. how is a judge going to make the call on this one. >> you know what, mike, i would not want to be the judge in this case. the sensitive factors here are so important. at the end of the day it's really about who is a better parent obviously the best interests of the children however, this woman jani janine married a convicted felon, gun possession, narcotics. at this it point, he's not allowed to be in the presence of 5-year-old sonny. that's a huge factor. how do you decide custody and potentially give it to a woman living and married to a convicted felon. >> vicki, let me stay with you. that sounds like game, set, match to me. i'm a judge wait a minute you're married to a convicted felon who will have contact probably with this 5-year-old. >> oh, yeah.
i think it is very strong ammunition to allow jesse and sandra bullock to actually gain full custody moving forward. however again jesse james wasn't in this daughter's life for the first three could be a very st bond that this girl is missing the mother. there's pros and cons on both sides. on its face, dra bulk on and jesse james have the up earn hand. >> let's bring in kim on this. how did we get to this point? this is nasty when -- you have this back and forth going on. why is jeanine going after sandra bulk on? it seems like that's where -- target is and not her ex-husband. >> exactly. you know, if you look at some of the letters that were written from sandra and jesse during her sentencing, they wrote to the judge, they are very critical of jeanine. sandra talks about how this girl, this young girl, sonny, was left alone while her mother was asleep from drug use. sandra in her letter explains this young girl did not have any contact with young kids, never went to preschool, they went to
playgrounds. was in her house. now, you know, when they bring her into their world, she's able to go to school and is around kids her own age. so they are very critical of the way she was raising this young girl. >> besides that, let me read a letter from jesse james to the judge. he was married to this woman. it was filled with violence and culminated with assault on me by janine. during the process, she has not done one thing to prepare sunny for her pending jail time. what do we know about that? there was an assault towards the end of the marriage. they were married a year. >> they were not married very long. this divorce happened, i believe, while she was pregnant or -- he left her while she was pregnant. yet, he makes very big accusations in his letter as well saying there was a lot of violence. clearly, this is not a good relationship. >> we will sort through it more. we will take your calls on this.
breaking news. 11th body found in a convicted rapist's home. the coroner identifies one of the victims. i will talk to that victim's daughter about getting justice for her mom. we also have the accused serial killer in court. new sickening details coming out about the decades' old rape sent him to prison. a crime so vicious he was denied parole for years. and this. young kids, not even teenagers, online every day. 12-year-olds, 10-year-olds on facebook, myspace, twitter. do parents even know what they are exposing their kids to? sexual predators, anonymous bullies, sickos out there. is your innocent child ready for that? call in.
love hearing from you. 1-877-tell-hln. you can e-mail us. it is your chance to be heard. >> controversy. opinion. your point of view. this is "prime news." >> hour number two p "prime news." breaking news. a coroner identifies the bodies, all of them women, pulled out of a convicted rapist's home. cops in cleveland, ohio, say anthony sowell lived among rotting bodies. stench of death there for years. we are already up to 11 remains. now cops are getting ready to tear apart the walls of this home. expanding the search for more bodies. in this past hour, i spoke with the daughter of the first victim to be identified. donita carmichael's mother went missing last year. >> this is what i have been saying since monday when, you know, we were called to the coroner's office. since this story broke, we automatically knew this was
going to be her. you know, it has been a year. and i lived here all my life and have never seen anything like this. to be a part of it, it is amazing how this happened. it is amazing. but, you know, we got confirmation. my grandmother, we were here and the detectives showed up. they gave us the news this afternoon that this indeed was my mother. >> i can't imagine that family is going through. we will take your calls. joining me to talk about it, investigative journalist who has been following this. let's start with renee cash, owner of ray's sausage incorporated, the business right next door to anthony sowell's home. this was the business that was blamed for this awful smell. renee, isn't that the case? people thought that it was your business that was responsible?
>> pardon? >> did people think it was your business responsible for this awful smell that was actually coming from anthony sowell's home? >> yes, they did. >> how long -- as we look back, how long has that odor been emanating from his house? about -- a couple of years. >> how long? >> three, four years. >> three or four years. wow. that sheds new light on this considering the fact that he was released from prison in june of 2005. and we have renee cash telling us that smell coming there three, four years. renee, did you suspect anything? as this was -- you know, the smell is out there and then what did you guys do to try to alleviate this odor if it was coming from your business? >> well, basically we thought it was the sewers out in the street. and then we were still smelling some of that smell in our -- in our plant.
and so we ended up having new grease traps put in, new plumbing put in. and the smell was still there. you know, we were wondering where is the smell coming from? >> did you ever expect anything like this? >> no, oh, no. never in a million years. >> when you heard of women missing in the area, we heard yesterday, we talked to people in the neighborhood. eight missing persons. we are hearing there could be up to 14 missing from this area. at that point did you begin to think uh-oh, maybe or is this -- just shocking you like it is the rest of us? >> shocking like everybody else. i knew of no missing persons in the area. in our neighborhood. >> renee, before we let you go, your business is what? you can see his home from your business? is is that right? >> no. our business is on 123rd. his home is on emempierial. >> renee, thank you so much for
your insight. >> can i have a moment to say a few things? >> real quick. we have a lot to get to. >> i want to say this is unfortunate situation for the community and to the families affected by this tragic incident. my prayers are with the families. the only inconvenience that ray's sausage has is the accessibility to our building and keeping up with the consumer demand and my staff and myself were doing everything we can to correct the business. >> okay. renee, thank you for your time. again, this is getting so close to you and the neighborhood. let's bring in michelle, investigative journalist. as we look at this investigation, obviously, he is there to rip this home apart board by board. do we know the latest? i know with the body count now, at 11. >> body count is at 11. and as you mentioned, already in your show, the first victim has been identified. her name is tonya carmichael.
she did go missing on november 10th of 2008. at this time, i want to mention really quickly, mike, is that the dna that has come in, they only have five reference samples now the coroner's office. they are asking for more reference samples from other families of missing folks out there. so please contact the local police department to be able to come forward and give them those reference samples because they have dna from some of the other bodies. they just don't have what they need to make those matches yet. so that's really the need at this point. also, investigators are in that house. they will continue along with the fire department to be able to rip down the walls to do a lot of overhaul. to be able to pull out the bricks one by one and make sure they are not missing a thing. as you know, cadaver dogs were out there yesterday. up at -- wind was blowing and could not get a good scent. that's why they had to use the backhoe in the backyard. this is going to be a very tough, tedious process. especially as more victims are identified and if more bodies are even found, you have to think about it.
michelle talked about the tedious process here of ripping this home apart to search for more victims. hope against hope there's not more. besides that, i mean, how far out do you go? where else do you search here? >> you know, mike, when they started they found six bodies and thought it would end there. now we are up to 11 bodies as of today. it doesn't end. you know, the thing is they are going to take the whole house apart and they have to do it in such a way not to disturb potential evidence going forward. they are going to pull up that entire backyard if they haven't already finished with that. as they move from house to house if they calls from abandoned properties, they will have to address them. and take a look at all of those properties he may have had access to. i think that -- major failure here of government was locating the smell. this smell has been out there for three years. why did they decide to pick on the sausage company? it was probably smelling like rotting meat to them. i'm surprised with all the government officials that may have been out here dredging through the sewers no one put two and two together and the smell of -- from this house had
to be -- strongest at the house and not the sausage company. why did they focus on the sausage company? somebody had blinders on and not doing their job. as a result more people died that should not have died. >> yeah. when you talk about, again, we had a guest you say three years, our guest say three to four years. it is years we are talking here. let's talk about the monitoring of what went on with this guy. again, he was convicted of a brutally rape in 1989. where he lured 21-year-old woman, three months pregnant, bound her, gagged her. he served all 15 years. what monitoring ensued after that? what do we know? >> what happen when anthony sowell was released he was required to check in at the sheriff's office one time a year. he was in compliance with all of that. he checked in once a year. and then just recently it changed where he had to check in every 90 days. now when investigators went out to his residence on september 22nd, that morning, just before 9:00 a.m., that was random spot check. that was not planned. that was unannounced.
he opened the door and they greeted him. verified he was at his address. they moved on. allegedly that was when an attack took place. that is a little bit of the timeline there for you. and -- >> you hit on something that have even more questions about. if a convicted rapist who did what he did in 1989 is accused of rape, why does it take authorities over a month to get an arrest warrant and get to his house? >> well, they did not have at that time a probable cause to be able toneter the residence. everything seemed normal. they -- there was another event that happened on october 20th. if you noticed yesterday in the press conference that timeline, think think, with the relations with -- he had with the woman from except 20th, up until october 20th, it gets a little -- a gray area there. the police chief did talk a lot yesterday about the october 20th incident where the woman fell off the balcony and fire department was called.
she was taken to the emergency room. he went to the emergency room. was actually inside of the ambulance. verified that they said they were boyfriend and girlfriend. police chief also said at that time that he was using cocaine and they had been partying for a long time. so that's where that stands. >> okay. john, i have to get you to weigh in on this one. september 22nd, convicted rapist, accused of rape. what are we waiting for? >> you know, mike, i am so surprised. again, this cop goes to the door and to check this guy is there and smell does not hit him and look at this guy's background. put two and two together and take this guy down right there. get a search warrant. i mean, again, i -- i have no idea where this government is and what they have been doing. again, they have -- they led to the further victimization. i think that the state has to step in and look at what went down here because something is so, so wrong. like i said before, garrido on steroids. i believe it led to the death of people that did not have to die. >> all right. you mentioned philip garrido. we will be talking about that.
thank you so much. because we -- we look at this situation. looking back, and anthony sowell slipped through the cracks. a month after he gets released from prison he's already looking for victims. garrido slipped through the cracks. we are finding out -- you will be infuriated when you hear how the lack of supervision of this guy, philip garrido, and what happened? j.c. dugard lives a life of hell for 18 years because of it.
welcome back. just in to us, we are learning about shocking missed opportunities to kidnapped j.c. dugard. self opportunities missed here. ridiculous. we are finding out a parole officer visiteded sex offender philip garrido's home at least twice a month but the cop didn't see j.c. or daughters living in the backyard. for 18 years. a scathing report put out by the california inspector general's office. just coming in to us. says one officer actually saw a 12-year-old girl, young girl, in a sex offender's home. clear parole violation. nothing done. how does that happen? take your calls. 1-877-tell-hln. former criminal investigator. see the steam coming off his head now. also with us, henry lee back with us. henry has been following this. that's the one that jumps out at us. among so many violations. the way we are reading this, a parole officer goes to his house
and see as 12-year-old girl face to face and nothing is done. is that what happened here? >> that's right. the report does not say who this girl is or when the girl was seen. we can only surmise it might very well have been one of j.c.'s daughters. indeed, incredible missed opportunity, mike. >> how does that happen? what's going on here? don't you -- doesn't an officer know who he is dealing with? that would be a clear infraction right out of the gate. >> it should never happen, mike. this is a total disregard of doing his job. this guy based on this report should be prosecuted, criminally, for failing to do his job. which led to somebody being victimized. it is so obvious. the full profile. she a probation officer. if he knows what he's supposed to do and knows his job, he is experienced and goes to the house and sees something, again, arrest the guy right there. get a warrant for the house and this didn't have to go on. and this went on for so many years. >> let's bring in our attorney, eric richmond. we will read some more of what
went on here. more of the infractions. let's stop right there. does the dugard family have a case here? >> absolutely, they have case. if you look at this report, there is a laundry list of indefensible and inexcusable mistake, missteps and missed opportunities is the exact words used by this appointed official, by governor schwarzenegger. and this is really a scathing report. this report doesn't just blame one person, by the way. it blames the entire system and that shouldn't be an excuse that this system is understaffed or underfunded. there is one person that definitely dropped the ball in this case. there lots of people and lots of blame to go around on this case. >> we are highlighting the obvious. we talked about a 12-year-old girl at a sex offender's home, violation, alarms should have gone off. here is another one. the officer didn't investigate visible utility wires running from garrido's home toward the compound. john, again, i mean, that's
just -- i would think investigative 101. you notice something fishy, you investigate. >> absolutely. they are doing a disservice by using the words mistakes. these are not mistakes. these are failure to do your job that you are being paid for. the people who depend upon you are the citizens that are being victimized and your failure do your job cost this yurng g young girl to be out there a lot longer and thank god she was fine lip found. if it wasn't for what finally happened can you imagine how long this may have gone on for? it already went on way too long. criminal prosecutions have to follow this because it will be the only way we send a message to the law enforcement agents and who are tasked to did these jobs and that it is not going to be tolerated and they have a duty and diligence to get it done. >> what about that, criminal prosecution? do you agree with that? >> i do agree with it. first, there has to be some kind of responsibility taken by the california department of corrections. what are they doing internally besides coming out and saying oh, okay, there's no technical violation here. besides these missed
opportunities. how about just, you know, saying okay, we have some responsibility here. let's talk about the facts that are still, you know, coming out right now. where's the responsibility from this agency is what i want to know? >> let's bring in henry. any response from the parole board? >> yes. they are saying -- pledging to make some -- make a number of changes. clearly this is embarrassing for the corrections department. they are saying that the circumstances of the case are horrendous and ingredient -- patrol system is antiquated and regret a lot of steps they have done. >> we will take a quick break and continue on this. we want the hear from you, our thoughts, your emotions, as you hear these as -- beyond mistakes is what we are talking about here. y8
welcome back. i know many of you are on facebook, myspace, twitter. how about your kids? experts say it is a growing trend for 12-year-olds on social networking sites. some on there every day and maybe younger than 12. ignoring any age requirement. i know it is the age of technology. have we stopped and thought about what our kids would be exposed to through all of this? child sex predators. trolling around the sites and looking for young kids. you are telling me some 12-year-olds are going to be savvy enough to pick up on some sicko trying to lure bait here? do we want to expose our kids to that? call in with your thoughts. joining us to talk about it, let's bring in dr. young, psychologist. as expertise in cyber relations.
the president of web-wise kids also with us. we also welcome back john, former criminal investigator. also expertise in cyber crimes. john, let's start with you. again, we know that kids are going to be on the internet. we are not putting our head in the sand but want to sound the alarm there are dangers out there. february, myspace kicked out 90,000 sex offenders. john, they are on the sites. they are trolling for kids, aren't they? >> absolutely. but, you know, he's the biggest problem that make this problem even bigger. you know, when we grow up, our parents were teaching us things. today, because of technology and kids grow up with technology, it is the kids that have to teach the parents so that the parents are way behind in the technology and don't understand it. these kids can do things parents don't even know how do. that's not only just to do with online. it has to do with digital devices and everything. all of a sudden this kid has more knowledge than the parents. it is almost impossible for the to know how to track these kids. and while there are software
products out there that can help you do that, it is the parent who needs the kid to help them install. >> it that's the story we hear. kids teaching the parents how to navigate through modern technology. judy, are you -- how rampant is that to where the kid is more knowledgeable than the parent, hence the parent can't teach the kid? >> well, it is very rampant. which is why the organization i'm with, web wise kids, priority is educating parents. so that they can educate their kids rather than vice versa while they are online. there are 35 million kids online from age -- kindergarten to 12th grade. it is critically important that we reach the parents so they can be an important partner in their kids' online use. >> gray point. let's bring in dr. linda young. what frightens me is when you think of a 10 to 12-year-old, they are not savvy enough to -- i mean, to know when, hey, something is fishy here. someone is coming on to me and they may not realize it. >> well, it is -- it is true that they are not savvy enough
to know lots of things. but in fact, it is primarily the girls between about 15 and 17 who are being involved with online predators. and those online predators are typically older than they are and the girls know they are older. so they -- they do realize that they are involved with someone and titillating to them and feel empowered by it. one of the things we have to make sure we are careful about is not -- overemphasizing how young someone is or that they will be blindsided by someone online because those are the rarest of cases. most common of cases is someone in their mid teens talking to someone she knows is older and that's what we have to talk to our kids about. >> right. you know, succumbing to the danger, that -- someone -- wrong adventure for lack of a better term. let's get a call in. linda is with us in california. your thoughts here? >> caller: hi, mike. are you hitting the nail on the head. my 12-year-old son knows more about how to work the computer than i do, unfortunately. and last year, he was playing
with his playstation portable, a little video game player. psp. and -- >> hand-held thing. >> caller: yes. i didn't even have internet at the time. and i found out he was with a neighbor boy a year older and they were getting -- they were downloading hard-core internet porn. i thought had you to be 18 and have a credit card. it was wi-fi. streaming from the neighbor's computer and they were sitting outside and getting hard-core porn. >> what have you done since? >> caller: i took away the psp and i monitor his play now. i got -- network. we got internet except i monitor him and he knows that i can track where he has gone. so i think we have the problem worked out for now. a lot of parents don't even realize that it is not just a video game player. they can get wi-fi and download porn and those kids know how to do. >> it linda, thanks for the
call. again, thanks for sounding the alarm for all of yours parents out there. judy, she did the right thing, right? once -- you like to hear she was monitoring from the get-go. once find out something fishy is going on you have to reset the rules, right? absolutely. i think a parent is a partner with a kid online. and that they need to talk to them about what to -- they expect with the consequences will be and if those rules are not followed. and there are lots of parental controls now on wireless devices as well as the internet. and parents need to take advantage of those. and they also need to be online as much as they can when their kids are online. so that they are watching what their kids are experiencing. >> right. let's get another call in. the question again -- how young is that young for these kids to be on the social networking sites? we are hearing 12, 10. let's take a call. melissa, your thoughts here? >> caller: yes. you know, predators are obviously a huge concern as far
as the social networking sites. i think had a something that parents don't realize, i'm 24 and i have been using these kind of sites since i was 18. the kind of content that you can find on these sites. sexually explicit pictures. things that really border pornographic material. i mean, things that i don't even want my husband to see let alone an 11-year-old. >> yeah. that's a great point. what are we exposing our kids to? especially when we don't monitor. who is dropping that bait? one more statistic for you as we head to break. center for missing and exploited children reporting 2600 incidents. this is back in '05. probably larger number now. adults using the internet to entice children. just what our caller is talking about. enticing them with images. things like that. lure our kids in. sound the alarm. we want to hear from you. 1-877-tell-hln.
continuing our conversation. how young is too young for our kids to be on the social networking sites? myspace, facebook, twitter. we are hearing 10, 12 years old. the sites suggest 13 should be a start. let's read facebook comment from holly. she says my son was not allowed until he turned 18. kids get enough socialization at school, church and after school
activities. makes a good point. i think a lot of people -- it is tough to prove scientifically but what's this doing to the social skills of our kids when all the conversations are typed out? you know, we will talk about that. also, this point. cyber bullying. we are exposing our kids to that on the social networking site. we are getting a report half of all teenagers report that they have been a victim of cyber attacks. bring in judy westberg. president of web wise kids. that's frightening because that's cyber bullying. sadly enough it led to some teen suicides. >> it is terribly tragic. it really is. and we have got to educate our kids on how to not become victims of cyber bullying and also how to not be a cyber bully. it is critical. >> i mean, talking about the megan meier case, obviously, 13-year-old who was bullied. it turns out by a mom. the two friends had an argument so the other friend's mom steps in. horrible case there. another 13-year-old ryan hal began. the list goes on here.
we talk about the bullying, let's bring in dr. linda young on this, our psychologist. that's part of the social skills that concern me. when you can just type out an insult or type out the bullying, you never see the response. you never see the tears welling up and we just lose all empathy and i think that -- you are turning -- the generation could turn heartless. your thoughts on that? >> you are exactly right. that wall, the screen behind which you hide keeps you from seeing the reaction of the other person. it emboldens people and not just kids. emboldens adults, too. one of the things we really have to talk to the kids about in schools as well as in homes is how to think before they act and imagine that whatever they put online can be read by the entire world the second it is there. one of the other things most important to teach is just the pause between a stimulus and a response. so that impulse control becomes the main thing that needs to be learned during the teen years.
and parents can teach it and in school they can learn it. and i do think it is all right to be on those social networks. >> right. >> it is not that you should ban the entire medium. it is a place where people do good things and they have wonderful ways of communicate. >> can we teach that, though? i like the rule that if it is going to be a deep heartfelt conversation, or even -- teenager will break up, that should be face to face or a phone call. it shouldn't be a one-line type and you are just on with your life. i think that breeds a selfishness. >> totally agreed. no matter what age you are. if it is a deep important conversation face to face is the way to go. not texting, not instant messenger, not online, associate aelal network for our people to see. if it will be private, it will be important. if it is emotional, doing it face to face is the best way to go. it always will be. it is the idea of balancing time online with time in face to face communication. it is not strictly one or the other. we live in a world where both are going to be present. it is not going to be taken aday no, it is not going away. >> what about that? some parents might hear some of
these statistics and say that's it. it is out. i mean is that the way to go? is it strict monitoring and partnering and involvement from parents? >> i don't believe parents should yank their children off of the internet. social networking sites are something a little different. i think they should definitely have rules about how to use those sites and monitor what their kids are doing online. we live in a cyber world. we are not going to keep our children away. i mean, 20% of 5-year-olds are now online. younger and younger kids are being online. so the key is educating them to be their own first line of defense. educating the parents and the parents can educate the kids. >> judy, real quick. i want to ask you, what age do you think -- before we go. we are hearing 10 to 12. sites say 13. what's a safe age for a kid to be on a social networking site? >> the sites say 13 for a very good reason. >> you like that age? >> i think that it is hard to
determine an exact age because there are so many different factors. but i can tell you the truth and the truth is that tweens are not telling the truth. they are going on those sites as early as age 10. so it is our responsibility as a society to reach those kids with these messages. and equip them to be their own first line of defense before they go on those sites. 13 seems like a deese end benchmark. that's 13 with involvement from parents and monitoring from parents. john, that takes you back to your point. we have to run. you like the idea of 13 but with strict parent involvement here. >> yes. there has to be. remember, parents are always working, use thing often enough as a digital babysitter and they need to understand that this is a tool and like all tools, must be used with a degree of responsibility and supervision. >> okay. guys, thanks. great conversation. hopefully we have the word out to parents out there. dr. linda young, john, judy, we appreciate it. coming up, this tragedy. three college girls, all
three college girls, all softball players, vanished while stargazing, north dakota. bodies have been found. all three dead inside their jeep at the bottom of april pond. yesterday before we got the news, one of the girl's fathers talked to "good morning america." >> that was something they commonly would do p weekend, evenings, depends on -- a small town. doesn't have a real active night life. but a lot of times the players would just go out and hang out
by the lake and just look up at street stars and chat about the things teenagers and early 20-somethings talk about. >> how innocent is that? tragic ending. family, teammates, mourned at that pond. threw roses and softballs into the water. how did this happen? how do we come to grip was in? how does a family deal with this? joining me now, my friend and colleague, jane velez-mitchell. jane, i know we -- we got the bad news during your show. we have covered these. i know, your heart was breaking right there on the air as you heard this. >> it is the saddest thing. there is a shock of just being told in your ear while you are covering the story and you are looking at these girls' photos and hoping against hope that there was a sighting of them and in a town 40 miles away. and what i heard the public information officer say he couldn't do the interview with us. he had to go right away. at the top of the show, my gosh, there's obviously some kind of development.
in the back of mind i was hoping for the best. i was hoping they were going to say they were found in that town. when they just came back in my ear and said all three girls are dead and just pulled them out of the pond in their vehicle. it is just so crushing because we cover so much sadness and so much violence and so much tragedy. and it is just -- one more and it does, i'm sure, gets to you, too. can you imagine these families gathering from around the country and canada and california and they rush there and hear that their daughters were out star gazing and the next thing you know, their whole lives are pretty much crushed. >> you know, you look at the pictures of these girls. so full of life, the smiles and -- it is always a tragedy when -- someone is taken so young. but it is the innocence of the girls stargazing. as the father described, we heard, to just go and talk what teenagers do and to -- for this to happen, it is -- it is hard to come to grip was this one,
isn't it, jane? >> it really is. the only solace i think we can find in this is that it was an accident. it wasn't some kind of sinister hideous crime where sinister hideous crime where these poor girls were kidnapped and tortured and unfortunately, we cover so many of those that your first suspicion, fear, is that maybe they were abducted. so in that sense, if you were going to find anything that is comforting in the context of a tragic death, that would be possibly comforting to the family. they have closure, they know what happened. it was an accident. there was no foul play. it was just a case of a very dark night and we don't know all the details, but somehow the tire tracks show that they went in with their jeep cherokee into this pond 50 yards wide, 50 yards long, 12 feet deep, and they apparently couldn't get out of the vehicle. >> let's bring in michelle segona, investigative journalist. you have had a chance to talk to investigators. what are they saying at this point? >> just spoke with lieutenant
wallace about 15 minutes ago. what he says is again, no foul play is suspected at this time. let me explain this area. this is typical western north dakota. there's a lot of rolling hills. this was a pasture area where the girls went into this pond. it was very shallow. he says from the eye it doesn't even appear to be that deep. it's not that large at all. so the fact that it was darker and they were outside and they were just probably cruising along, it didn't, you know, seem to be that deep and then they went in there so that could really explain the phone calls that were made from inside the vehicle. just last night, right before jane's show, i had spoke with the parents, lenny and clare, and clare had a heart-felt message wanting her daughter to come home for thanksgiving and to bring the other girls with her, and this is just tragic news. >> it is. okay. we'll continue this conversation after the break. in the meantime, jane, we'll be watching "issues" coming up at the top of the hour. stay with us. @@@@@@@@@@
tonight, the stomach-churning nightmare escalates in cleveland. police have now discovered more rotting bodies and a skull at the home of a convicted rapist. and they say the gruesome body count could rise. will there be more victims? cops are now tearing apart his home wall by wall, looking for more bodies, checking vacant homes in a six-mile radius. meantime, they're scrambling to identify these women. how did he continue his reign of terror for so long without anyone suspecting? and shocking new insight into the michael jackson molestation charges. a jackson insider drops a bombshell, shining new light on the case. you will not believe what jackson's doctor said michael was doing in front of children. but will this mind-boggling new
information actually save his image? we'll take a look. also, inside the mind of a twisted sexual deviant. the halloween madman who led police on a nationwide man hunt is speaking out from behind bars. tonight, we'll play his head-spinning comments on air. he tortured a woman for 13 hours on halloween night. now, four years later, he's talking to "inside edition" and you're not going to believe what he's saying. plus, it's happened again. the secret life of another celebrity sportscaster exposed. jim nance, perhaps the most popular sports commentator in the country. now a nasty divorce is revealing some of his dark secrets as his 26 year marriage collapses, we now learn he had an affair with a woman two decades his junior and you won't believe the whopping amount he has to pay his wife. "issues" starts now. tonight, horrifying new details about a serial killing spree in cleveland. as the first of at least 11 victims is identified. police say convicted sex
offender anthony sowell has been living with rotting corpses of at least 11 women. he allegedly strangled most of them to death. investigators are now tearing that house apart wall by wall, piece by piece, looking for more hidden bodies. >> our homicide unit along with the county coroner's office went back to the scene which has been secured ever since day one, and during the course of their investigation, throughout the day, we have discovered approximately four more bodies in the backyard and a skull in a bucket in the basement. >> sowell currently faces five counts of murder but that number certain to go up. investigators say sowell hid his victims' bodies all over his property. we're talking the basement, a crawl space, a shallow grave in the backyard. neighbors say the hideous stench, you can imagine, 11 bodies, was enough to knock them over but apparently, nobody knew what it was.
>> the smell out here, you could smell the smells coming down the street. we used to think that it was coming from -- but you smell these smells and i live right there and i used to be in the house, like we used to come out here like ah, the smell just be horrible, but i didn't know there was no dead body. you just think it was the sewer system. >> that's right. owners of the sausage company next door even went so far as to replace sewer lines and grease traps thinking they might be the cause of the awful smell. it all raises new questions about why, why, why this house of horrors wasn't discovered earlier. officers had checked on sowell on september 22nd but somehow, they didn't investigate that horrific odor. then two weeks ago, neighbors reported a naked woman had fallen out of sowell's second story window but the woman didn't press charges, so again, how many missed opportunities were there to stop this killing
spree? i want to hear your take on this nightmare. call me from home. 1-877-jvm-says. 1-877-586-7297. straight out to my fantastic panel. steve kardian, former criminal investigator and director of defend university. criminalologist casey jordan, noted criminal defense attorney michael cardoza. great to have you, michael. and investigative journalist michelle segona. michelle, what is the very latest? >> the very latest in this investigation is there has been one victim who is identified. her name is tanya carmichael. she went missing november 10th, 2008 from the area. at this point, since her husband, one victim identified, investigators released just a couple hours ago is they have five reference samples from family members who have come forward so they don't have enough reference samples to match up with some of the other dna from some of the other bodies. so they need that at this time so they're calling out to the public that if you do have a family member that's missing in that area, to come forward, talk
to detectives to see if you are a good match so they can collect that particular dna sample. as you mentioned, anthony sowell was arraigned today and he did -- he does face five counts of aggravated murder, including some other unrelated charges on that. i do have a timeline, a very detailed timeline at michellesegona.com. check that out whenever you get a chance. >> did he say anything in court, michelle? >> he did respond to the judge. the judge asked him if he could afford an attorney and he could not afford an attorney. i don't know the exact verbage but i did watch that clip earlier today so he does have a public defender. the public defender says that he has medical -- some medical conditions. he has heart problems, takes medication, he has a pacemaker. he's been unemployed for two years. he's been collecting unemployment so that's why he's been going out collecting scraps, selling them or taking his unemployment and taking that money to be able to live inside t the house. >> michael cardoza, his public
defender asked for a psychiatric evaluation. give us the possibilities as a result of that. >> well, certainly the possibility, the number one possibility, would be not guilty by reason of insanity. is he insane. and that standard is, did he know right from wrong. clearly, there's something mentally wrong with him. normal people don't do things like this. what the psychiatrist will be looking at, certainly, will be to give him mental tests, to talk with him, but more importantly, they will look at the facts of the case. i mean, here's a guy that takes bodies and stacks them up to the point that they're rotting and they can smell it all over the neighborhood but for the sausage factory, they would have been there a whole lot sooner. so is he insane? i suggest he probably is. will a jury find him not guilty by reason of insanity? no, because the case is too emotional and people don't want to take the chance of putting a guy like this in a hospital
where he might get out some day. >> let's analyze this character. sowell allegedly tried to lure women right from his own neighborhood, one woman told abc's "good morning america" she was almost one of his victims. listen. >> i didn't feel safe. there was something telling me don't go in this house. how he was in love with me, how he wanted me to go up to his house and drink with him. >> alcohol appears to be a common thread in these attacks. other women, including a woman who said he raped her in september said he would invite them in fa drink. once inside, he would suddenly become violent and apparently tried to go at them at their neck. most of these women were strangled, most of them with some sort of ligature which means a cord. the one woman said, casey jordan, he came after her with an extension cord. what do all of these details tell you? >> well, first of all, it's really criminology 101, not even that interesting beyond the fact that it's going to be driven by power, control and probably a sexual thrill.
it's not going to be anything incredibly deep with this particular character but the more important question is how did he get away with it for so long. he picked vulnerable women, women who had a history of drug abuse or addiction, alcohol addiction, and that makes them extremely vulnerable, because very often, they can disappear for a few weeks or a few months, their families are concerned, but remember, even if you have a series of missing women, if you have no bodies that are recovered, no crime scene to investigate, the police, all they have are concerned family members based on, you know, reporting missing women who have a history perhaps of addiction and disappearing. so he picked his victims very carefully, women who wouldn't be missed or if they were missed, wouldn't really be taken that seriously as a loss. >> well, this is why we have something here on "issues" called the war on women. 11 bodies and so far, they are all female, what we can tell. only one of them has been identified, a 52-year-old woman who was somebody's mom and
somebody's daughter, and this is unconscionable and it really is the war on women. it's an ultimate example. why did cops take so long to arrest sowell and discover this house of horrors? you know what? on september 22nd, a woman called cops to report she was drinking with sowell inside his home when he suddenly got angry, punched her, choked her, and took an extension cord, put it around her neck and raped her. this is what she's claiming. she says she managed to get out. 37 days passed before police went to his home to arrest sowell, and that's when they found the rotting corpses inside. 37 days. now, i have to ask you, i know you're representing the cops and i'm a big believer in cops but steve kardian, why did it take 37 days to check out this rape claim? >> well, jane, let's take a look at the fact in just about every
state that i'm aware of that rape is not a mandatory reported crime. so if you get a victim that's hesitant, that is reluctant to come forward, reluctant to cooperate with investigators and you have a district attorney's office that says well, she's not cooperative, she's being unreliable right now, it very well could take that long. >> well, it's true, michael cardoza, that the woman in this case was hard to reach and she didn't show up for an appointment, but here's my point. if she's saying that hey, this is the house where it happened and they know because believe it or not, they visited early that day doing a spot check on him at that house because he's a registered sex offender, if they know wow, a registered sex offender lives there, she's claiming rape, maybe we got something to check out. >> jane, that's really nice, but i mean, the police in most metropolitan cities, cleveland, they're busy. you have a victim or an alleged accuser that comes in, says you know, i was raped and then she disappears for awhile, even though it may be a sex offender, what are the police to do?
check this out all the time? it's really difficult. >> i got -- >> you can't do the blame game all the time. you can't do that. >> i think we have to analyze it. i'm not blaming. i'm asking questions. >> i agree with that. analyze is fair. but you got to look at the accuser. was she cooperative. by the way, d.a.'s offices don't get involved until there's an arrest. so they're certainly not to blame. >> they're usually brought on board right from the beginning. >> more on this -- >> not all the time. that's not true. not all the time. >> violent sexual offense? i would say yes. >> more on this hellish nightmare in a moment. we're also taking your calls. i want to hear your theories and your thoughts. 1-877-jvm-says. 1-877-586-7297. plus, a very bisar new twist in the michael jackson molestation case. why his doctor says some of m.j.'s head-spinning habits could actually help save michael's reputation. you won't believe this one. first, how does a serial killer go unnoticed for so long? cops say anthony sowell had at
least 11 bodies on his property and neighbors would gag as the stench of death poured out of the house. a councilman says the complaints started two years ago. >> we received a phone call from a resident that said councilman, there's a foul odor that's coming from across the street and it smells like a dead person. not dead meat.
officers are going through having to go through that home. i dare say they will probably have post-traumatic stress disorder from having to deal with the overwhelming stench and the depression of dealing with, count them, 11 bodies thus far. that was a veteran police officer in cleveland describing what it's like to comb through a home where 11 corpses were hidden, the bodies so badly decomposed police struggling to identify them. they're desperate for family members of missing women, please come forward, they say. >> people have a loved one missing from that area, we would like to have them contact the county coroner's office. our number is 216-721-5610 or they can contact the cleveland police to make arrangements to provide the dna sample. >> police have only identified one victim so far. her name is tonia carmichael. she was 52 years old when she disappeared from the area a year ago. police say her remains were
buried in sowell's backyard. carmichael's daughter says her mom struggled with drug abuse and often hung around in sowell's neighborhood and it appears that he would invite women in the area into his home, allegedly, to have a drink and then cops say he would attack them violently, sometimes with an extension cord. phone lines lighting up on this one. this is just a horror story in so many ways. lorraine in ohio, your question or thought, ma'am? >> caller: yes. about the case in cleveland, good evening. >> good evening. >> caller: yes. about three years ago, there was an incident on my train, i was a rail operator, and i had to go downtown cleveland to the sex crimes and actually when we finished talking about the incident on the train, the sex crimes detective had showed me some pictures and she told me then there was a serial rapist on that side of town but these ladies were not found in that home. one lady, i guess he thought he killed her but he didn't, and
she made a composite sketch and the composite sketch that she gave me is this gentleman that's on this tv right now. >> what -- when did this all happen, ma'am? >> caller: it was about three years ago. and i told her that i read the paper and watched the news every day, and i never heard anything about anyone running around on the east side that was raping women, and you know, i don't believe that they didn't know what was going on. i just get the impression that nobody really cared, you know. anybody that could kill this many people, they didn't care. it should have been more of an investigation for that. >> well, listen, michelle segona, he is quoted as saying according to one of his victims who escaped, oh, nobody's going to go look for you, you're just a crack exletive and nobody is going to care. >> that's the unfortunate part of this. he picked his victims and picked who he wanted to prey upon. there was an october 20th incident and they announced this yesterday during the press
conference, the police chief did, and he said this woman fell off the balcony, the fire and ems came. this is just october 20th of 2009. they picked her up, they also picked up anthony sowell. they both went to the hospital together. he said that she was his girlfriend and vice versa, and that they were partying, they were doing cocaine, they were drinking, they were hanging out, and that she was looking for her keys and fell off the balcony. so this is a little bit of insight into his lifestyle and the kind of -- the kind of activities that he was partaking in and possibly, what the investigators say is that some of these women may not even have missing reports on them. so we do know of some that do actually have missing person reports, but there could be others, unfortunately, that we just don't know who they are. >> we have to leave it right there. thank you to my fantastic panel. we'll stay on top of this story. veterans day is a week away but we salute the troops here on hln every single day. today, robin meade of "morning
express" has a salute for marion yarborough who is so grateful for the sacrifices her son makes each and every day. listen. >> thanks, jane. today's salute comes to us from a proud mother to her son, marine corps ral greg yarborough. your family is so proud of your accomplishments and service to your country. >> hi, robin. this is marion. i'm saluting my son. he's a corporal in the united states marine corps. we're so proud of you. we miss you so much during your deployment and can't wait for you to return home soon. god bless you, greg. you're such a role model for your younger brother, sister and all your cousins. we're so grateful for all your sacrifices. we miss your practical jokes and your laughing and your bear hugs. be safe and hurry home to us. >> greg made corporal only a month ago so congratulations to him. back to you.
disturbing details and i mean disturbing, behind the michael jackson molestation charges. michael's friend and former dermatologist drops a bombshell. he says the pop star never touched children, but you won't believe what he says did happen. let's rewind a little bit. 1993, a boy accuses michael of molesting him. he's described michael's genitals in detail. the case reportedly settled out of court for $20 million. michael swore he was innocent. listen to michael. >> it brings tears to my eyes when i see any child who suffers. i am not guilty of these allegations, but if i am guilty of anything, it is of giving all
that i have -- all that i have to give to help children all over the world. >> now, dr. arnie klein tells tmz jackson was innocent, saying the boy knew what michael jackson's genitals looked like because the pop star like to urinate in public and in front of children. michael was famous for whacky behavior but does this make sense? is his friend trying to salage the star's image? straight out to harvey levin, tmz's executive producer. you spent three hours with dr. klein? dare i ask what came out of that meeting? >> well, jane, everything came out of the meeting. i mean, i got a call from him on saturday, essentially saying look, i am not a monster, i need to sit down with you. so i went to his house on sunday night, i spent three hours with him, and he talked about everything. i mean, he started by saying look, i raised a lot of money for the aids foundation and i can't raise money anymore because i am being vilified so i want to set the record straight.
he then went on and talked about the family, the propofol, dr. murray, drug addiction, his own treatment of jackson, how much jackson he says hated his family, and on and on and on. but one of the things i asked him about was what you just mentioned, he said jackson loved to pee in front of an audience and what he would do is at his home, where the children spent a lot of time, arnie klein was his best friend and jackson spent holidays there, vacationed with him. he says that jackson would pull out cups and pee in cups in front of everybody and then laugh, and that he did it in front of the 1993 accuser. he did it in front of a lot of people. klein said he did it so much that he installed, i believe he said, again, there was so much coming out here, jane, i believe he said he installed a urinal in dr. klein, in his office, in his office, because jackson liked doing this so much. >> have you ever heard of that before, though, because so many books have been written about michael jackson and we have read them all. i haven't heard that one.
i've heard a lot of strange stuff but not that one. >> yeah, no, i have not heard the peeing defense ever, jane. but no, he was adamant about that. he just, he said that is absolutely why -- and remember, the reason the genitals were so important in this case is michael jackson had vitilago and i talked to klein about this and there were certainly distinctive markings on his genital area. i have seen the report from 1993 where the boy describes in great detail as well as in illustration, great detail what these discolorations are. a lot of people thought this is why michael jackson settled the 1993 case for $20 million, because the evidence was so powerful. but this is klein's explanation and he insists jackson did not molest them. >> we have ten seconds. do you buy it, yes or no? >> you know, jane, you covered michael jackson enough to know that what makes sense in our world didn't necessarily make
inside the mind of a twisted sexual deviant. the halloween madman who tortured a woman for 13 hours on halloween night is speaking out from behind bars on camera, and you're not going to believe what he's saying. plus, the secret life of a celebrity sportscaster. jim nance, perhaps the most popular sports commentator in the country but now a nasty divorce is revealing some of his dark secrets as his 26-year marriage collapses. we now learn he's had an affair with a woman who was only three years old when nance was married. in the spotlight tonight, a sa disk sexual deviant boasting from behind bars about how he subbed his victim to a twisted
13-hour torture session. yep. "inside edition" sat down with this convicted creep. >> you snapped -- >> i snapped. >> you became a sick, twisted psychopath. >> yeah. i didn't really know what i was going to do after that. was this going to be like a completely insane hannibal lector type evening, like was it just going to be your worst crime nightmare? >> you may remember this unlikely criminal, a writer and media critic for a well-known magazine, peter braunstein was once at the center of a glamorous manhattan lifestyle, furious when his fashionable girlfriend dumped him. he decided for some reason to go after her co-worker so he dressed up like a firefighter on halloween, no less, and lit two fires in the lobby of the victim's apartment building to get her to let him in, then he knocked her out with chloroform
and proceeded to terrorize her for 13 hours. the "new york post" reported in 2007 he stripped and bound her by her wrists and ankles to the bed, he put electrical tape over her eyes, she felt his hands on her breasts and between her legs. yikes. the phony firefighter told "inside edition" that she was his perfect mark. >> this woman, it seemed like the ideal victim, because she represented everything i loved. she had just an enormous number of shoes. it was striking. it was like i couldn't believe someone would have this many shoes. >> he's laughing. is that because he's a lunatic? here to analyze this sicko's jailhouse rant, jill vermeer, certified sex addiction therapist and co-leader of the treatment team on vh-1's sex rehab with dr. drew, and jim moret, attorney and chief correspondent for "inside edition." first of all, jim, quite a scoop for "inside edition" getting
inside prison and talking to this loonytunes. why do you think this chock full of nuts decided it was a good idea to talk to you guys? was it his way of getting attention again? >> i think so. he sat down with our weekend anchor, paul boyd, and paul got a lot of really interesting, bizarre, strange comments. what you played was only part of this bizarre rant where he would laugh and go off on all these tangents. he said something that was really odd, among other things. he said this was my first fe felony. it was like being a rookie in the mij or leagues and my first time at bat, i hit a home run. he seemed really proud of himself. i've gone back and forth on this because you certainly don't want to give a demented lunatic air time for no good reason. i'll tell you one good thing about this. he's facing 23 years to life. if he ever comes up for parole, one thing he said to paul boyd stuck out in my mind, stood out in my mind. he said paul said what would happen if you got out of prison tomorrow, and this man said i would start up right where i left off.
if that doesn't give any parole board pause, to keep this guy in forever, nothing will. >> we have actually got the clips that you just referred to. this next one from this weirdo talking to "inside edition" will make your blood boil. not a drop of remorse. listen. >> this is my first major crime, my first felony, so it was like being a rookie, you know, and like the major leagues and your first time at bat you hit a home run. >> that doesn't bother you that this stuff coming out of your mouth is completely insane? >> would you prefer this sort of insincere remorse that a lot of people fabricate? >> what would happen if you got out of prison tomorrow? >> i would start right where i left off. >> jill vermeer, even before this horror on halloween, braunstein had pleaded guilty to harassing his girlfriend but guess what, he got probation for that even though he posted nude pictures of her on an adult website. now he's doing 18 years to life. given the threats, shouldn't
there be a way to make sure this guy never gets out at all? >> there absolutely should be a way that he should never get out and he's sort of already telling you the minute he gets out, he's going to commit more crimes and pick up where he left off. so he's clearly already in the obsession, already in the fantasy of leaving and continuing his behavior. and he's getting high, he's getting a hit just off of the attention and the shock value of what he's done. >> yeah. an and it's funny, it's bizarre that it doesn't wear off. in other words, sometimes in prison the reality of the horror of what somebody does creeps up on them and they experience remorse but this guy, it's the opposite. he seems to become more brazen as time passes behind bars which is very strange. here's another clip from "inside edition." this sick character talks about his victim in a very strange and bizarre exchange. listen. >> i was always about to lose it, and she, because she was so
even-tempered, it just kept me in check. >> also now we're supposed to thank you for the not killing her? >> no, you're not supposed to thank me for not killing her although i think she's probably grateful that i didn't kill her. who wouldn't be? >> jim moret, he was convicted of sexual abuse but technically did not rape his victim. it would seem to me his victim was very kraj yocourageous and by talking him out of something more gruesome. >> the challenge for her, jane, was on many levels. she was chloroformed multiple times and on the stand, the victim talked about going in and out of consciousness. she was basically shackled to her bed, wearing basically a bra and panties, for part of her time, this 13-hour ordeal, her eyes were taped shut. she could hear him but she couldn't see him and through this, she was still able to maintain a sense of calm and this person, this lunatic, talks about that as keeping him
even-tempered, so even in the face of horrible, horrible situations, this woman was able to basically save her own life. >> braunstein was a fugitive for six weeks after the crime. when he was finally caught, he stabbed himself in the neck three times in a failed suicide attempt. >> this idiot have this misguided sense of professionalism, you know, saved my life. >> okay. here's what i don't get. maybe you can give us some insight, jill vermeer. this guy was an educated writer, he was a journalist, he was from an upper middle class family, he was fluent in french, he sought a ph.d. degree in history from nyu. he didn't get it but he was also obviously deranged. he actually wrote a personal manifesto saying god wanted to have him work justice on sinners. so give us an analysis of this guy, because he's all over the map and he's scary as all get out. >> well, he's definitely got
what we would call an antisocial personality disorder. it's basically your every day sociopath and one of the major criteria for that diagnosis is having no remorse at all. so these are the people who are the mass murderers, serial killers, and they can do all their crimes and have zero feelings, zero remorse at all for their actions and they get off on it and they actually are proud of it, a lot of the times, like we're hearing in the tapes. just because they're a sociopath doesn't mean they're not smart, and sometimes some of the most brilliant minds can just snap, and they're probably, my guess would be there were signs leading up to this. i would venture to say it didn't just come out of the blue. i would be really curious to look back into his childhood records to see if he had any problems in childhood with violence or aggression or hurting animals or things like that. so there were probably signs leading up to it. we already have a history of him with his girlfriend and the
pictures and the obsession. so i don't think it was an out of the blue thing and he is really smart and he's antisocial personality. they can go together. >> right. in his professional life, as we mentioned, he was a journalist. he covered the world of fashion. "inside edition" asked about his designs on high-powered fashion editor anna wintor. >> i knew her schedule. i knew the whole routine. >> you really thought about killing her? >> yeah. i thought about killing her. >> you know, jim moret, none of this makes sense. it's hard to make sense of insanity but why, for example, would he target a co-worker of the girlfriend who dumped him? it doesn't -- that doesn't add up to me. >> a lot of it -- you know, he pled guilty to, what, 37 counts of harassment against his ex-girlfriend. she worked for "w" magazine. he initially worked for "w," then women's wear daily. he basically had it out for all of the fashion industry. he had it in his mind that maybe
they were out to get him so he would get them first. so i think he wanted to hurt his girlfriend. the next best thing was hurting her friend. >> this is a perfect example to me of how harassment as a crime is undervalued. he got convicted of harassment but ended up getting probation. and you know, harassment often leads to more serious violent offenses. we've got just ten seconds, jill, but isn't that just a cautionary tale? >> absolutely. i think it would be great to see stricter laws around this kind of behavior in the future, if we could get legislation to pass it. >> yeah. if we locked them up for harassment he wouldn't have had the chance to do what de to that poor woman. a big thank you to our fantastic panel. three college students killed in a tragic accident. their car was found at the bottom of a lake. so how exactly did this happen? we'll investigate. plus, the golden boy of the sports booth caught up in a nasty divorce. we'll have the latest on jim nance and his wife's million
let's meet today's winner. laura lee from california. that's laura lee and her granddad, the man she says inspired her to quit smoking after ten years of puffing on those coffin nails, she remembered that he told her that if she could stop smoking by the age of 25, her lungs would heal themselves. she then weaned herself off nicotine the day before her 25th birthday. she finally quit. 17 years later, she's a mom, married to a fellow nonsmoker, just as grandpa promised, she is breathing just fine and dandy with a pair of healthy lungs. laura lee, for sharing your story of recovery, you're going to get an autographed copy of my new "new york times" best-selling book "i want" plus a chance to visit me in new york city and visit me right here on the set of "issues" where no smoking is allowed. not at all. but we'll still have a very good time.
seriously, if you're struggling with addiction or know somebody who is, check out my new book "i want" at cnn.com/jane. it can help with those addictions. coming up, famous sportscaster jim nance is in the middle of a very nasty, very expensive divorce. he's been ordered to pay, are you sitting down, almost $1 million a year to his ex-wife. but first, "top of the block" tonight. this is so sad. a mother's desperate cry for help. virginia tech student morgan harrington vanished in the middle of a crowded metallica concert last month and has not been seen since. now her mom is begging everybody in the community to come together this weekend to help find her beautiful missing daughter. >> be strong. we are trying to find you. we will never stop. we are trying, honey. hang on. and to the person who has taken
morgan from us, please just let her go. she has so much more to live and so much more to give. please let her come back to her family. we need her. >> that poor woman, so clearly tortured minute by minute. morgan's cell phone and purse were found abandoned outside the crowded arena on the university of virginia campus. cops have already followed up on 350 tips so far. they have come up empty-handed. a $100,000 reward is being offered by police and the band met allica is also chipping in, adding an extra $50,000 to anyone who can help find morgan. please, if you know anything, call investigators asap. we will stay on top of this investigation and we will keep you posted with any and all new developments. moving on, another sportscaster cheating scandal. this one ends in a monster
divorce settlement. 50-year-old jim nance, we all know him, he's one of the most popular sports anchors in america and he admits i cheated with a 29-year-old woman. he's 50, she's 29. now he's going to have to pay ex-wife lori $916,000 a year. yeah, you heard me right. almost $1 million a year to the ex. the cbs anchor and his wife were married for 26 years. that means they got married, let's see, when the woman he later had an affair with was just 3 years old. that's pretty fascinating, isn't it? today, nance reportedly brings in $7 million a year. now his ex-wife will also get their connecticut mansion, a condo, plus $70,000 a year in country club fees. wow. what about the big issue? what is it with these middle-aged tv stars having affairs with 20-something women, leaving their long-suffering wives in the dust? here's david letterman on cbs' "the late show." >> i have had sex with women who
work for me on this show. now, my response to that is yes, i have. my wife regina, she has been horribly hurt by my behavior and when something happens like that, if you hurt a person and it's your responsibility, you try to fix it. >> some published reports are suggesting his wife is unhappy and might be thinking about a divorce. we don't know. we have no independent confirmation of that. let's not forget espn steve phillips' return with a 22-year-old turned fatal attraction. she allegedly threatened his wife and his kids. is cheating par for the course in this locker room tv sports world of ours? straight out to my fantastic expert panel. jill vermeer, sex addiction specialist with vho 1's sex rehab with dr. drew. also joining us, celebrity divorce attorney randi kesler and senior editor of "in touch weekly" amy palmer.
great to see you. they were married for 26 years, yes, the judge said this marriage what is your opinion? is this a fair payout? >> i don't think it's fair. i think marriaged fall apart for all sorts of reasons. people don't have the energy of time to file for divorce until they move on. you know, $1 million a year is a lot of money, but he makes $6 million or $7 million a year. it's just a little higher level, higher math. she pays income tax on that income. >> amy palmer, you know what i hear, the message of the story, money does not buy happiness. they had it all and they are still miserable with each other. >> it's about men in power. what do they want? whatever they want is what they
okay, we are in the 29. that jersey is for my daughter. my lucky number. what do you think? i didn't see. >> there's a smiling jim nantz. we certainly all know him. he's one of the most popular sports casters in america. he's talking about tossing out a pitch for the red sox. nantz cried tears on the stand as he testified his wife lost interest in his career. she wouldn't join him in events. she wouldn't let him hang an oil
painting of himself in the house. she was a shopaholic. she describe add necklace she bought saying i think it has some sort of stone. i would think for 12 clams it has a stone. he admitted he took a young lover, but their marriage was dead. the wife says no way, i was in marriage counseling since last year. randy, i understand you know her divorce lawyer. give us some insight on this. >> she didn't want a trial. they couldn't resolve their differences. it's the highest award in connecticut of alimony. it lets some people realize there's validity to marriage is a partnership. both sides should get part of it. $1 million out of $7 million, is
it so terrible. when they break up, they each walk away with something. he gets the rest. >> i don't have a problem with it. give her the money. i find it amazing they have four houses between them and they are this miserable. it's the tales of the dangers of materialism with happiness. they were probably happier when they lived in a little apartment when they were married. >> they were one of the few percentages of those that go to trial. they don't want to be on tv and headline news. >> yeah. >> it's what happens when you don't take matters into your own hands. >> it's another penalty. in the meantime, is espn a breeding ground for sex scandals. the execs are saying no more from sexual harassment suits. they are warning the on-air talent, no more. stop it. if you fool around with
co-workers and it gets messy, you will be fired. there's no reportedly policy. they are using the steve phillips mistress madness as an example, but the boundaries are vague here. >> yeah. they are going to have to get really clear about what they are forbidding and what they are asking their talent to do and not to do. how much can they interfere with the personal lives of their on-air talent. >> amy palmer, let me ask you about this. mr. phillips went off. he's an official sex addict. he's getting rehab. i believe in sex addiction. do you think the nation buys it? >> i think that do. i think they realize it's an illness. if these people do have a problem, they should be treated. it's usually they are treated when they get caught. that's the issue. >> we have to leave it there.