i think carbs will be good morning stephanie stop. the party and check the sions from around the world. like every week to w. hello and welcome to quadriga declaring that europe has never been so necessary as today nor so endangered french president emanuel mccall has once again laid out a vision for europe for what he calls a renaissance saying that he wants to mobilize citizens across the continent in the run up to elections for the european parliament less than two and a half months from now in fact many share macross view that the e.u.
is facing its most acute crisis yet increasingly divided over policy toward migrants disillusioned by a prolonged and chaotic breck set and polarized by the rise of right wing nationalism. or the populists who can convince europe that's the title of our show today and here i guess it's who will answer that question it's a pleasure to welcome you oh she is german but lived for many years in belgium and france she's a professor of political science and heads the department of european studies and democracy at the claims university in austria and she says europe can only be successful if the german and french leaders move closer together derek scally is from ireland and works as the berlin correspondent for the irish times and he thinks for years germany's e.u. vocation has been a self-deception dusty cliché and phrases that are twenty years old and convince no
one any more and it's a pleasure to welcome milan niche he is originally from slovakia and works as an analyst on eastern europe for the german think tank teaching a.p. he says president back home is attempted polarization has so far benefited the populist in a paradox the way it plays into the hands of hungary's prime minister orbán and his framing of european parliamentary elections through an us versus them lens. so let me start out. by asking you this opinion polls actually show that sixty two percent of european citizens and in many countries more than that have a positive opinion of the e.u. so is the situation really as dire as president to crawl laid it out it is the very existence of the european union in fact in danger as he says i think if you ask people what do they think about i mean it's a bit like asking people what is your opinion of christmas you know sixty seventy eighty percent will have a positive opinion we've never had in the european union is the discussion about
what kind of europe i mean what i've never personally ever understood is a national politics we say you know do we want more right wing policies more left wing policies you know it's politics there for the small people is it there to be pro-business and in europe as. soon as you get into that you sort of get into you hate europe you can't criticize europe and more slowly so actually start to see thanks to the populace are actually starting to see a sort of differentiated view of europe and i call comes along with his vision for in a sense for europe as if there can only be one europe and that is the europe he's proposing and anyone else who doesn't agree with that is somehow a critic of europe and wants to undermine europe and i find this rather depressing that we keep going around in this circle that the the dog keeps biting its own tail i thought after the euro crisis we realized that the euro possibly what they are for the people not just for the governments and i think mr mcconnell slightly living in sort of the twentieth century version of europe which your opening statement suggests that you don't think the president will achieve his goal of
mobilizing citizens across europe you seem to think that his vision is counterproductive at least in the view of many eastern europeans why is that he's president of friends and his first task is to mobilize his own citizens to support to support a marshall plan he's he's political party in may in the european parliament elections so far at the home he has not been does that successful in mobilizing actually his older voters potential voters and i think the projection for his party of european elections stands at twenty two pct which will put him even among the top three political parties in europe so my question would be with all these great visions and oratory and potlucks what is actually political relevance of it who could be his allies and how strong his vision will be in terms of representation in a very divided and fragmented european parliament that we will get off of the elections let's talk about the degree to which he could find here in germany or he
could call the last time the president might call laid out a big vision it was september of twenty seventeen and it was clearly timed and targeted toward german leaders that doesn't see. seemed to be the case this time why is that what accounts for the difference well i mean it was targeted to germany you go to a response from a good come come bob but let me pick up what their extent he said on the question i think there is sort of a twenty century vision when he targets there's only two or frankly german tend them because what is missing in the whole story is what do the citizens want from europe what does the people of europe one and if you are slovakian or portuguese or irish frankly german tom them is not i mean it's always good but it's not sort of what you are caring for and i think the moment that you target this proposal from a come to america i make it compatible you have a narrow discussion field on what is going on and i think there is really there it
is right in saying that we have a market now we have a currency don't have a european democracy and there's not one vision like my cost vision of how europe should be but there are many visions and the real problem is do we have an institutionalized structure of the european democracies and then we decide the politics sort of do we want the left liberal green whatever europe or do we want europe at all and i would say what is not on the table is that we decide that we want to have a democracy in which we on the european level in which we then decide about the politics of the turn about this europe president mccrone says that the vision he is laying out actually would create a europe that would be more responsive to citizens needs and their expectations let's take a closer look at some of the proposals he's suggesting. micros appeal to the citizens of europe appeared in all the big newspapers came twenty eight countries and twenty two languages. the french president is
a dedicated european. he believes that the continent is in danger and this was his wake up call. to people school hope so many believe that europe will be brought down by those who seek to sow division i believe that it may also be brought down by those who have given up on the idea of a strong and united europe. to correct a situation micron proposed in part to create a common european border force an asylum agency a crackdown on businesses that army environment or don't pay their taxes and an e.u. wide minimum wage. once again mccraw have sought to protect himself as a european visionary. but how much support to these proposals really have. starts going the proposals are pretty sweeping they range from defending the electoral democracy to industrial policy to environmental laws and
stronger cooperation on defense can you unpack this package for us what do you see as key areas and you sounded skeptical about the degree to which this really does meet citizens needs i'm actually no longer really interested in these proposals until somebody comes along and says had opposed to do is what's the point in even talking about it it's just more ideas i mean i could come up with proposals for the european union and put them in twenty eight newspapers around the world i'd have to spend a lot of money on stamps and emails but i could do that unless he says how he proposes to do it who are his allies and these are just more proposals and i wish you know i wish more movement would come in here but even i'm starting to get cynical people can come up with think tanks simmer this is what i think thanks to doing. the head of he's the president of france what we saw as he puts proposals on the table germany comes along its red pen puts a rather red lines for about half of them and then the other half say yeah maybe
and then you are the germans my favorite party trick these days is when i'm out to dinner table with german politicians i say when was the last time germany had a good new idea for europe you just get these terrified faces they haven't had a good idea since home with coal they're very good at saying no and they're very good at saying why something won't work and that's starting to get really old well it's come back in just a moment to germany's own ideas a lack there of but early to go all i hear you making affirmative. sounds when it comes to derek skepticism about yet another big package of proposals the first they act totally underscore everything that they're just going to have said i mean we're not painting or on which this question since michael's proposals were essentially hanging around with them since the treaty of maastricht ever closer union ninety two so that's thirty years that we are discussing how to do a political union and that is thirty years how we did try to find a question to who decides in the european union is this the nation states is this the european commission the parliament or perhaps it's the european people in
a redesigned european institutional set up where the people other sovereign have and these questions on the table we had a constitutional amendment twelve three two thousand and three it failed to be had two negative referenda it's time to go back to this moment because if we want europe and the twenty one europe that functions that it has officials see and that is political there's alex on the head i've been around nothing is without constitution so europe needs a constitutional it will fail just it's just devil's advocate president micron did say he wants to see process is in institutions that would strengthen electoral democracy in europe and he has in the past proposed reforms to decision making structures among other things a finance minister for the eurozone who would have the ability to create real eurozone fiscal policy much of that hasn't gone. over very well with other guys and i'm totally in favor of these proposals i think in essence it's good proposals but coming back to what their excuse says if we cannot implement them then it's
meaningless and the real question is can the system away from itself i think we are confronted with a stroke of momentum in which we are shown every day more that that us system in itself is a perfectly has no more capacity or will or both to reform itself and that's why it's basically turning in circles and that's why we're having going from one proposal in the next move on to the next panel and without responding to the central question who these sites in europe and as long as we cannot put a clear answer behind this in the sort of political science terms we do not know who the sovereign is the nation state the european union or the people it should be the people in the time structure is it not spiegel and because of the current structure of the people do not decide in europe europe is falling apart into the hands of populace you learn ditched let's take one particular issue migration policy actually there are clear rules that decide about migration policy for europe but the eastern european countries have not been willing to go along with those rules the migration system in fact is broken as president mike ross said isn't it
and his proposals include measures that would strengthen border protection isn't that actually something eastern european countries would like to see yes well i'm happy that these government official countries are happy how the debate has developed in the last few years and they feel quietly winning the debate because they don't want to receive you as item seekers even though they are at historically low of unemployment in their own countries and they will need more people to work two full days. the nice economic growth that they have but of the same time they want to strengthen external border. i think centrism europeans like the. response that came from britain from the new chairwoman of the to do to mccrone ideas also because the successor of chancellor merkel that you know for if they so want to say well yeah we know that liberals are headed in the party sorry she's there. also
what could only see in these centuries in europe as somebody who is very much pushing french interest not european interest if i can use your interest but it's these this is interest of frogs and i can even imagine how his how his opiate was put together that the best minds in french diplomatic service proposed these ideas but in the european council after the election in europe in parliament who will support us not centuries europeans although i would credit mccrone with his tour to centuries to europe last summer and before he reached out to the norden europe to send through appeals because he's trying to pick up winners and this is the crucial clash i think between paris and berlin what could old wants to move on into smaller europe germany is a start of correlation and is terrified about starting to shake things up because. not only through their will but i think also the german foreign policy establishment is afraid that that's that's the stepping stone to disintegration so
germany is no protecting you at twenty seven of the brics it including hungary and in spite of what obama is doing. at all is trying to find the allies including in central eastern europe for his deeper integration so let me come back to whether in fact these proposals did find allies here in berlin derek you said in your opening statement that the german vocation is dusty and cliche did berlin dust itself off in response to propose they responded but that's all they do they respond they say yes to this and no to that i mean they they said yes yes the border they said she also knocked in a few things like she said maybe we should get rid of the second seat of the european parliament which is in strasbourg she knowing france will say no she said we should have european seat to your un security council knowing that france has its season doesn't want to give it up so i saw she said yes to a couple of things but it just it sounded very much like uncle americans. you could
have written us opinion piece that it was very much sort of a defense of i have sympathy for the german position. germany has to try and hold things together but whenever you osterman politicians i os and americans what do you mean the middle of the euro crisis just for fun is that what you actually want for europe apart from holding it together you can hold them to here and watch it fall apart you know it's like some sort of breasts in you know to heroin you know it's your charge for mother courage tries to hold a family together and destroys it so holding together just isn't enough sometimes and where you know i was hoping with which for a come come by we'd hear a new tone but but susie some because these as i said these phrases from the cold air are really starting to look of it tired but we could give a just for clarification for some of our viewers the she whom derek was refute referring to there was not chancellor merkel it was her successor at the head of the christian democratic party and a good cop colleen bauer who gave the response here to my cross proposals what do
you make of that why was it this new party leader a k k who she's often known here what does that signify i think you can have two readings yeah if you're mccall you can say why did the chance last for me why is the women of the party but you can't have a reading from i'm the guy basically that i'm going to makkah let it come problem by replied means that mack of was sending a signal to germany that i think it come comp law should become the next sense and i also i think it depends on your viewpoint how you interpret the very fact that the answer to a president of france has been done by a leader of a party but the question applied to come back the derek and underscore again everything he said is that what we are seeing is a french german that makes whether friends are all focusing on the money the eurozone budget the solidarity the minimum wage sort of things which in the theory of what would you do is the left of a state yes where is the ply from. mini which is about military refugees security
policy and sense of force is the right of a state and it's as if france and germany are doing this there is a my call here goes empty and there is a germany there goes empty would be better to do this we learned just this old idea that a french german town dim is necessary to drive europe as if motor is that in itself a dusty old cliche. yes a new. and interesting reflection of these exchange of. ideas between person burning in centuries and there was. a certain sort of acknowledgment ok now berlin says what they wanted we hope the berlin wall will always keep the small countries on board because the next real political fight will be about two things the next year budget and the single market and what is
president mccrone trying to do is to increase standards and rules for single market . as another way a friend protectionism when he started on postal workers but as germany's for the school country because single market is great for german economy and the elephant in the room is the eurozone the future of the eurozone which was not others by by the way i like the way that she taught the to hold a letter. or a pet because these are her first elections as a party leader don't under medical election anymore she is she will be tested by the selections i i like the fact that it was foster swift a little bit of provocative basically saying a message to present look for that if you ask something from germany to sacrifice future because as i can see the viewer can follow in them to your un security council seat so essentially that two of the two of them using the media to try to
make love this show that man yes yes i think that it sorry i'm going to add i've got my own on the time and i want to be sure that we come back to the question of the rise of right wing populism in europe i mentioned those polls that show a lot of support in europe for the e.u. but polls also show a likely upsurge in the upcoming e.u. parliamentary elections for right wing populists are reports starts in hungary. these posters were put up by hungary's governing party peta. they claim that hunger in america investor george soros and european commission president john claudio are promoting illegal migration to hungary. a lot of europeans believe that kind of propaganda recent polls indicate that populist and nationalist groups are set to make big gains in upcoming european parliament elections. p europe of
nations and freedom parliamentary group includes italy's northern league austria's freedom party. in france is a national rally party. the governing parties in hungary and poland are said to be close to these other partners. right wing nationalist parties have one thing in common they are frustrated with the european union. but how much more right wing populism will europe be able to take. and let me pass that question right on to you grow has right wing nationalism reached a tipping point or will we see that in the end it's a passing phenomenon no i think it. it's increasing and it's a cement this is incremental and it's a says the systemic which is if you pass a certain. level say the thirty percent threshold is very important yet twenty
percent you can neglect thirty percent the system cannot they collect and you can see from all figures whether that's also. people or us i want to see you not that we have basically peaking beyond the thirty percent and thirty percent has a certain the number in all system so what it means is that these parties pashley goven they have incremental stakes into the system they do they good they they sort of hijack the institutions from the inside they change the persons in the institutions be that in the courts be that's in the media all that and then free media and so you have incremental effects and these effects i think that will stay because there systemic minnich missed or bones party and hungry faces possible banishment at the moment from the e.u. parliamentary group to which it belongs could that tarnish its image at home or abroad not at home. abroad yes i think it would first of all limit the money over space of hungary and prime minister on the e.u. level and therefore i think. victor mobile do its utmost to step back for
a thorough climb down from just. information tone as we were coming to the studio there was a news that he actually sent letters to the thirteen european people's party members that requested a vote in the debate and perhaps expulsion or suspension of if he does party. at the next political awesomely of a sense red block on twenty first of margin brussels and the apologized for it he'll find somebody you will see a lot of ads around that he doesn't already believe or he loves he will and doesn't want to leave the largest european political party he wants to come pain you know if you're hungry have a good result still be as a member of this blog and then decide what to do next and paradoxically he supposedly also doesn't want to leave the e.u. he absolutely wants to keep hungry in the e.u. and how gary and in fact support the e.u. they say in polls derek scully. another potential deterrent that's out there of
course is the do bacco of bragg's that we've seen chaos it seems ongoing do you think that that could discourage some right wing nationalists either again within great britain or abroad yes we had the new leader americans this us from the party i'm going to come qanbar she said about a week ago she said you know if anyone needed a good you know an advertisement for why the european union was necessary look at the chaos in britain you see where short sighted nationalism goes so in a way in a bizarre way although we're still in the middle of the breaks and calles that i had shown well if you want to retreat to your little island mentality go ahead you know but the trouble is you're dragging other countries down with you so in our land i don't think there's be any sort of. boost for populists there i mean we're we are very very dependent on the european union even more so now so i don't really see britain is now its own its own entity am but i do see across europe i see in
germany a problem because germany claims to be a european nation you know because of the war and it never. and war but whenever you asked german politicians they're already looking at the checkbook how much is this going to cost us so they they talk to european talk but since your crisis we've gotten to a very hard nosed germany where it's all about what's going to cost us what everything germany and the european was supposed to be about but because something of a paradox here we see euro skepticism strongest in many of the countries in the east and eastern europe that have benefited enormously from e.u. membership and on the other hand countries like portugal or greece where there has been europe your e.u. imposed austerity very painful have almost no right wing nationalist how do you account for that first i think it's wrong to say that the countries who have benefited because the what you need to look at is which group of which country has benefits at the out say in germany banks industry has a lot of benefit to from the euro german citizens you may discuss this and the same
for greece you have very wealthy greek who have a benefit that a lot we didn't save with all these bailouts packages sort of the greek citizens be safe the bit on the library important to talk about count for the fact that there are very few right wing popular because you have an inverse populism which is if salvini is standing there and says because of the e.u. i cannot have a basic income in italy then he increases populism against the european union but everyone's sort of in a few of the northern european populism because that if somebody is something he wants money the germans do not want to pay so it's a receipt procrit sort of grouping of populism recently procol. building up our title as to can convince europe populists or macro just either one going to be young people who are in need to go out not to start new young of europe and are there not just on the climate but also on europe. for the deliberations over what you're lections presentations of lucky thank you very much to all of you for being with us and thanks to you out there for training and he said.
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this is deja vu news live from berlin it's being called one of new zealand's darkest days. and it's with extreme sadness but i tell you there is a it seems in pm tonight we believe that forty people have lost their lives and this act of extreme violence the city of christchurch put on lockdown and mosques around the country told to shut their doors after an unprecedented mass shooting authorities are calling it a well planned terrorist attack.