it invented completely new things and top of the ancient giants who had originally been its teachings you believe that. the future of the dark is to believe jews into it at. the ready. for its people twenty second d. w. . a low and welcome to d. w.'s international talk show quadriga where today we're talking about the one thousand battle hardened islamic state fighters and their families from germany some of them are now on their way back home many are already here following i ask this collapse in syria and iraq both men and women and among them are vicious killers and war criminals of those who have returned a number are already on trial what should germany do with them should they answer
for their crimes and be sent to prison should social workers help them integrate back into society into neighborhood schools workplaces. islamic state terror today just how dangerous are returning i-s. fighters i'm brian thomas and joining me here in berlin to talk about that is i'm here last hour he works for media outlets here in germany and in iraq he says some i asked attorneys are dangerous but more dangerous is the updated ideology they bring with them. alan poses a commentator for the daily newspaper de belt he argues if we want other states to take back their citizens who we consider terrorists then we have to take back our citizens who have committed terrorist acts and kristen helberg is a featured mideast analyst at a number of european publications she points out i asked is militarily defeated but not. ideologically the west must help the kurds in dealing with their jobs.
a warm welcome to all of you and to those of you joining us from around the world kristen if we could start with you you've also written two books about this topic about i.a.'s about syria you spent a lot of time in the country let's get a a demographic of our average i.a.'s fighter just august who is he and what drew him to fight in syria to fight in iraq well it's not that easy because behind the one thousand and fifty german fighters there are one thousand personal stories they are quite young the majority of them they have radicalized very quickly usually over the internet so some of them are converts german citizens convert some of them are migration and they have a migration background in germany but i think what generalizes them would be that they feel alienated from german society they felt that this is not their country this is what you get from women for example who left for the can if it was said
that i don't want to educate my children in this country i feel i'm a part of this country personal frustration maybe as a muslim feeling you know this new anti muslim ideas many german citizens so this is a general question of why did these citizens german citizen not feel tome in germany then how did they radical as you know this is a this is basically an internet problem and internet probably get back to that aspect let's talk about the nation first allan if you could pick up on that is it a failure of integration into german society as a result of the rise of the right what's behind so many young people sympathizing with i.s.i. and even going to fight in iraq and syria for them now returning home i don't think it's neither afraid of integration although integration has failed in some respects noise jus with being discriminated against nor really is it all that. any people i
mean. we have had homegrown terrorism here think of the so-called red army faction the movement of the second of june people of my generation who went underground and they had thousands of sympathizers hundreds of people who went underground help them in all sorts of organizations and they were neither alienated nor were they you know conversed islam and i think so there you disagree or disagree with chris and you think they're not alienated. they may be alienated does not because they're being discriminated against i think it's some good happens it can happen to you quite quickly in as as as a cousin said over the internet suddenly you find something that seems to explain all your problems and gives you a purpose in life and and off you go and you know we had this with with is interesting because the our you have read on the fact on the one hundred these highly intelligent interact was on and on the other hand you had sort of semi
criminal korea's hoofed and they they bonded and it's quite similar with i as you have these semi criminals or real criminals and but then he was a very intelligent converts often who take the ideology of islam which they've half understood and convert it into something which reminds me again more of european terrorism than of anything you know from islam is one of the similarities certainly the danger in here you say that these individuals these young men are dangerous but more dangerous is the ideology can you expand on that exactly because i think when we defeated. military still existing to low think this. poll how the ideology still existing with that people the detainees when they come back here not all of them of course possible most of them they are still dangerous and they have equipped with military training. i just
found that image imagination that we can live in a state. governed by sharia this is possible ok the project is filled but still the hope still existing and i think we should just be careful who are we going to bring back which case he is how distance is he from this that i think the most dangerous is the woman because the more. i think the combination between what back to the question why they left germany and i think the combination of the individual problem. person the problem and the international jihadism it does not offend them and just in germany look to whole europe a ward wide problem where this fix in one time in one place is a toxic brew is an exact words no problems in the ideology kristen didn't pick it
up actually what linda said ok it's i think it's very important i would very much agree on that i think that jihadi i don't know gee it's some kind of a youth movement as it was thirty years ago with the left so that i went in if you where the way if you wanted to stand up against the society as a whole you were looking for justice justice is a major feature if you talk to extreme it's all about treating it just stayed just order so at that time it was leftist marxist idea and now it's not so it's really it's some kind of a fashion as well youth fashion that is very easily promoted through the internet that gets to these people because it attracts them it attracts them and you pointed out that that it is in fact young women and a mere that's what the new research is showing is that young women are especially attracted why would they be especially attracted to young women particularly optimistic or what quality do they have the quality of women is kind of advertising for the. especially women coming from western countries just to get to
say it for the local i s members look that people have everything in europe but they've left them back and they come to us that give us good ability that we are in the right time in the right truck and b. side of this they married with fighters also it is something interesting and i think when you we look for one example we said we saw a women married as fighter went to syria he killed in fighting and she came back to germany and. another guy went against second time there this isn't it this is an example to show you how dangerous they are you've interviewed a number of women women the brides of the ira's fighters. was there an attraction to the anti feminist message that is part of the city ology
what drew them in the the women you talked a while in the end of the day that women live in the kind of sharia. imagination that the woman for a play the role as a host wife she should serve her man and she is she should keep herself in holds she serve the religions she serve the god when she said of her man this is a kind of and you can say it and t. phantom ism like this but also with the communal energy inside because they look to others unbelievers and they do not accept even to talk with someone i came from iraq and i talk with her she said i don't want to talk with you because you are unbeliever something like this our perspective this game with you and your listeners you can roll your eyes a better person when you don't mean it's true but every son forget that one third of the i.s.i. has already came back and among them a lot of women who have completed this is. because they went they they thought the
caliphate was some place some ideal place you know where the people would live in respect and just is and everybody would have his place and she would have an important role to play and there was that exploited they were exploited or they felt that this is not the place that they were dreaming also they came back so not all of them of your logically. we have to admit and i think the women that are convinced of it they feel that they have a certain place they they have an important role to play they they are respected as a woman they are against the sexualized role of women in the west you know they would criticize this obviously because we have a problem with a. role model of women you know the left or the surge a race of the west was and remains is something you know all of that doesn't help them in their rights but something that they feel that they would lose the dignity it ok in their perspective let's meet one of these women right now among those returning from the battlefields of syria iraq as we've been discussing are not only hardened worriers but also women and children the wives sons and daughters of those
combatants one woman attempting to get back to germany is a wife now living in a syrian refugee camp with her summer son she says she was forced into the situation and was a captive broad of islamic states. a room somewhere in northern syria tens of thousands of people live in this overcrowded refugee camp among them children wounded men and women and perhaps islamic state militants most want to return to their home countries this quickly as possible. one is they not she used to live in berlin with her turkish husband on a visit to turkey he forced her to accompany him to syria where he joined the i.a.s. according to her statements now her husband is dead. as is strictly. it's horrible the crimes ice is committed in the name of islam.
and i'm hoping i'll be allowed to come back to my beloved home country germany. chant. her son was born during the war now she's hoping the worst is behind her. cause cruel things happen their women and children have no value at all women were horribly mistreated by isis. whether complicity or not should isis polymers get a second chance. what do you think there is she telling the truth and how do you go about ascertaining something like that you know this is a standard so what we get when we interview the people that they don't have they don't accept the islamic state and so on but i think this is we should really think about what they say because for me personally i do not believe her because she is she live in this level stay till two thousand and nineteen for almost four years
that for years there were many many chances to lift the state and to go to surround herself and we saw many cases by the way that women really do not accept the difficult. difficult sun they manage to the top. to go back in the end of the day we should think about who are going to come back in which cases and how distance has or they have four of the. and the really it's need a law for it's the need evidence when you go to the courts you should bring black and white in the kurds who are in control much of the area where these former people are being held so it's very difficult to get that kind of evidence alan what do you think how should we deal with these cases should they be tried in syria these should these individuals once they return here be subject to german law. well
look i'm glad that we have this problem because remember how we pointed the finger at the united states about guantanamo they had similar problems that these children been found on the battlefield they were obviously they had been fighters that but you know you couldn't prove it what to do with them so they dumped them in a sort of extralegal a place called guantanamo we're doing the same with these people we're saying to the kurds you hang on to them we don't want them for whatever reason now. we can do that but then we have to be at war to climb off our high horse with regards to guantanamo what i think since we have put ourselves on this position that we say everyone deserves a fair trial that a person like the young woman who just. should come back to germany and make a case in charge of membership of a foreign terrorist organization paragraph one hundred twenty nine a three years in prison and she can make a case and see if one can believe i think that that's what i offer the other
compelling issue here and that's what to do about the children what about her little boy that's very important because most of these children are very young age they are between one and five years old so really to leave them in syria and iraq means that we are creating a next generation off young people who have not entered school who are not educated who have only learned to fight so we can really not afford this so to take care of the children we need a whole set of measures i think in such i mean we need the jurisdiction of course we have a state of law we have everything we need we have the laws that we need we have to find proof but it's not it's not that difficult in terms of terrorist organization because you have to prove that they actively supported a terrorist organization which sometimes it's easier because you find evidence on the internet because they themselves post with victims and with what they did. so and as you to be honest it's not easy but if you would like to learn some of the as what to do with the church. though as we as we you know we end as
a combat of this we are visitors one point the other thing a social worker it's the only thing it's the other thing is psychological. work has obviously who worked with these children who try to do better than to try to give them a try to to try to set them on zero and start again basically you have to work very closely with the families of these former i as members the families of the women for example of maybe the grandparents of could take of that here in germany that's what's happening actually there's some experience with this from the last few years when they've been the first came back the first few members i mean how do other islamic countries deal with this problem other arab countries deal with the problem of foreign fighters that are returning home their wives their children does are is it different in egypt for example or saudi arabia how they approach this issue while they have also a kind of. programs for examining. what we were. implementing also theoretical personal and also social worker to get the
detainees in morocco for example in tunisia about i think just to step back for the question what we we should behave with that sentiment i think the most important question are we going to face the next generation of i yes i hope that i'm wrong but the question is yes because when i see this question in the grow that the pollution and the situation in politics situation in syria now or syria in iraq making the same mistakes before before two thousand and fourteen pressuring undeveloped country without toll. using the cart in the strong. i think people in the end of the day they need prosperity they need to hold they need they need to have a kind of a light in the end of the term. goal was delayed to the from the. but when they
come together in this social situation. will the grown up begin again. like a virus that's waiting to emerge under their proper conditions this is exactly what i mean when i'm saying we have not forward it i don't logically if you're talking about really defeating isis on an ideological base you have to think about the reasons why people turn to ice and the conditions of life that they face and we've determined that they are they could be personal as well as all the europeans we're talking about the regional if you look at syria if you look at iraq if you look at egypt you have really the ground is prepared for any extremist organization to come back because we have to take care about education about political part when you say we are you talking about dignity international about who your national community who is supposing the fighting isis isis but only on a militarily level which is not enough because we have to take care about the regions that we the west destroyed for example a city a fucka lies in ruins or libya right one and
a half years after the liberation of iraq still lies in ruins it's full of minds people displaced around they cannot come back they don't have a dignified life they cannot politically participate nor the sunnis in iraq nor don't even think about it in syria think about it isn't enough for the letters also turkey's involved in the region you can't just point your finger at the west again you know you can't point because europe really hasn't learned the lesson from the arab horizon stake they misunderstand dictatorship with stability this is what you see egypt if you put a young activist into egypt prisons this is really what makes him an extremist would you agree that the west has a special responsibility to go back to syria to iraq stabilize them in a way that. precludes islamic state from rising again. yes i would agree. one of the problems in iraq was for instance when the americans would then they had . a rose partly from members of the old army in the baath party and so
on and the americans under general petraeus at this john the arab awakening they defeated al qaeda not only military but also politically but then the americans left and comes back and the baath party comes back to as in the form of. exactly so we're always you know we always think oh we go in we can find you his good and then we go out again that doesn't work like that because let's pick up all those and so the islamic state desperate if you will these so-called islamic state has been crushed on the battlefield in syria and iraq on the battlefield it is but it's far from a spent force in other countries like some in africa and as far as field as in the media. isis fighters were on the advance that was in twenty fourteen when the terrorist organization took the city of raka syria. it was the start of five years of war ending with thousands dead and captured now isis this
last fortification the village of the goose on syria's border to iraq has fallen to the islamic states caliphate appears to be an end with help from the international alliance combating isis in the middle east. but observers warn that isis still poses a danger the extremist militants have gone underground in iraq and elsewhere including the leader of back here all but now to. the terrorist militia can still mobilize thousands of fighters and tens of thousands of sympathizers the idea of the islamic state lives on. since the summer of twenty eighteen around two hundred fifty attacks have been made outside of syria. how dangerous is isis now. america what do you think is i-s. more dangerous now than it was prior to its defeat in some ways i believe yes
because we are talking about millions of dollars investing in a normal economy that managed before they defeated in iraq in syria to or in turkey in europe. the money is there a different. system is going on on the ground and the side of this of the states the sales still active we have a ball it's fifty attacks in iraq still to love every month. and the side of the fact that i just would like to show that they are still existing they are trying to make some attacks here and there just to say we are still strong but i think in the end of the day the dangers will be less or more. or to bed on the question how we are to to manage with this problem in the long term not in the short term just putting bombs as you say social political engagement there's a there's
a long term study that we need to have but elman also needs to be a short term strategy we've had the christmas market attack here was an i.a.s. directly but as a fellow it individual our german authorities prepared for iris attacks here in germany you know if i say yes then tomorrow a bomb goes off and you can't be prepared can you because i mean we've seen all the mistakes that were made with the christmas market attack and it could could have been proved prevented but it's easy to say that after the event and i think german the german authorities i mean we never hear about the many attacks that they foiled we only hear about the ones that get to go through i ask claimed responsibility for the christmas market with their like a franchise aren't they i mean bomb goes off they say oh it was us and all the people who laid the bombs that oh we're islamic state you that you never know but look we're going to have to live with terror of for the rest of our lives that's
for sure and we're just going to have to get used to it and react from time to time at the same time i agree with i mean totally a long term side to look what's happening in sudan and in algeria people want democracy people who want total change now we're going to leave them in the lurch are we going to do something or are you arguing for a return of a strong american presence to the region something that under the current administration would be very difficult. american european i mean it's our neighborhood it's not even america's neighborhood i mean used to be a member of the european union when it was pop to front but it depends what kind of . change we're not talking about going back telling the people who to vote for and what to do about supporting the people that in these countries. who have the. courage to do so these people feel let down completely by the european union and. wherever in the world they feel we have to really go back to
the conditions of these people and not have these conditions. for their central question as hundreds of jobs returned from battlefields how dangerous is islamic state here in germany today a scale from one to five five being extremely dangerous how would you rate the dangerous threat we saw it is a question we should. still. not special of the children but we should work in the long term. one to five. five but i would. take the chance to work with. the other ones we have to put in jail. if you want to rate give us your rating. with the comments on our you tube feed follow us on twitter give us your rating there how dangerous is in germany right now what do you think we'd like to hear
city in ruins. symbol of a long complex in the philippines between the muslims and the christian population . when i asked my first book you called the city president detergents response was. this is not the kind of freedom that mean one philippines in the sights of ins in seventy five minutes on the w. . when the other such amazing people fight for survival no money based on
a budget limited budget when there's a flood water comes up trouble waste by good flows fast to everyone to but. the lack of water is equally dangerous. based on keep people move south so they can plant crops and find food stamps. floods and droughts. will climate change become the main driver of mass migration you can the right any apocalyptic scenarios you want and probably more the federal commission. the climate exodus starts thirty years on d w. climate change. sustainability. environmental projects. globalization affect biodiversity species nontraditional exploitation in quality. human rights displacement. the global impact of local actually.
three thousand on. land be our fighters want to start families to become farmers or engineers every one of them has a plan of the initial. the nothing is just that the children who have already been the boy and those that will follow are part of a new the process. they could be the future. granting opportunities for global news that matters d. w. made for minds.
this is t w news coming to you live from berlin a new leader in sudan but many believe the regime has not changed protestors ignore a nighttime curfew to rally outside army headquarters in the capital third demanding civilian rule instead of the military front to the country's president also on the show. the first night behind.