tv Face the Nation CBS December 14, 2014 8:30am-9:01am PST
>> schieffer: today on "face the nation." fall out from the senate report on the cia and torture and the story that won't go away. outrage over recent deaths of black men at the hands of police. across the country tens of thousands took to the streets yesterday with protests deaths of eric garner, michael brown and others. we'll hear from one of the organizers national urban league president marc morial. but we'll begin with scathing torture report released by senate democrats and startling admission of cia director. >> in limited number of cases agency officers used interrogation techniques that had not been authorized, were abhorrent and rightly should be repudiated by all. >> schieffer: we'll hear from
all sides including senator john mccain who was tortured while prisoner in vietnam. republican senator saxby chambliss says endangers american lives, independent senator angus king who supports its release and house intelligence committee mike rogers on the report's long term impact. and as always, analysis from an all-star panel. 60 years of news because this is "face the nation." captioning sponsored by cbs good morning, reading the cia report and its details of waterboarding and even more ghastly practices was not for the timid or feint of heart. and republican senator john mcdatabase who was a prisoner of war for five and half years in vietnam brings a unique perspective also author of new book "13 soldiers" personal history of americans at war. senator, welcome to the broadcast.
let me just begin by asking you the question that troubles me the most about this, highway is it that reasonable people so many reasonable people could come to such opposite conclusions about this report and what it brought to light. what do you make of that? >> i make of it a whole range of motives from people who were so understandably alarmed and angered by the attacks of 9/11 that their first motivation is do whatever is necessary to make sure there's never again a repetition and some revenge there obviously all of us felt that. ranging to now frankly some rewriting of history because there were violations of the geneva convention for the treatment of prisoners, there were violation of the convention against torture which ronald
reagan was primary signatory of. i think in retrospect some of these practices fly in the face of everything that ha america values and stands for. >> schieffer: as far as i know you are the only republican who thought it was a good thing to make this report public? >> frankly i also had some mixed emotions about it. but the reason why i think came down and said that we should is because that's what america is all about. we do things wrong, we make mistakes. we review those and we vow never to do them again. frankly this idea that somehow this is going to make the -- our enemies more likely to attack us, i don't think so. beheading americans right now that part of it i dismiss. but what we need to do is come clean, we move forward and we vow never to do it again. that's what we did after abu ghraib and that's what we did
after times. we are nation that acknowledges our mistakes and we move forward and we're not going to be inhumane. >> schieffer: do you believe the cia misled the congress over what it was doing? >> i don't know that much about it because i was not on intelligence committee in that aspect. but i do know that i had meetings with both vice president of the united states and general haden and extended meetings where there were vigorous discussions. i said these things are torture, in violation of the geneva convention and convention against foretour. later on as you know in 2005 and 2006 we enacted legislation to prohibit what they were arguing for. bob, some of these -- you cannot -- i urge everyone to just read the report. these are the communications within the cia as to what happened. can't claim that tying someone
to the floor and have them freeze to death is not torture. you can't say 18 times someone is waterboarded. by the way, on waterboarding it began with spanish inquisition. it was done during the philippine war. we tried and hung japanese war criminals for waterboarding americans in world war ii. >> schieffer: here is the thing. the vice president, dick cheney says that these things worked that we had to do it and they worked. do you think they worked? >> that is -- first of all i think we established that it was torture that is the big second question. let me tell you general petraeus, there's no man alive that military leader that i respect more than general petraeus, quote, why we are warriors we are also human beings. if you want information from a detainee you become his best friend and that is what worked for us with our special operators as well as our conventional forces in both owe rook and in afghanistan.
i think we should give some weight to general petraeus' view. yesterday or day before whenever mr. brennan spoke, he said, quote, it was unknowable whether they could have gotten the information without using this torture or not. that's a pretty ambiguous kind of statement. then the question is, did we get the actionable material, i think that it shows that in a number of cases that the cia is claim ing that these eits -- that they got the information and there is counter factual argument made by this report that they got the information before they did the enhanced interrogation techniques. it's not about them.
it's about us. it's about us. what we were and what we are and what we should be. that's a nation that does not engage in these kinds of violations of the fundamental basic human rights that we guaranteed when we declared our independence. >> schieffer: before you go i want to ask you about this session of congress it look leek it's going to end the way it started, people threatening shut down the government. you saw ted cruz again take on republican leadership. what is going to happen next year? are we going to see more of the same or do you see any idea that it might get better? >> i know it's going to get better because we are not going to tie up the senate until the last few weeks try to get things done. the reason why we were in the debacle we're in because we refused to pass any of the appropriations bills, most of the authorization bills end up all jammed up.
the reason why i voted against it is a trillion dollar bill with few hours of debate. what we're going to do make up these bills one by one and have votes and amendments, something that we haven't done in the past. >> schieffer: do you think saying it has to get better because it couldn't get worse, it has to get -- >> right. and republicans should know unless we can show the american people that we can govern we're not going to elect republican president in 2016. >> schieffer: john mccain, thanks you so much. always good to see you. turn to senator saxby chambliss he was the top republican on the senate intelligence committee he is retiring and he joins us now from atlanta, georgia. senator, thank you for coming. you said earlier there is no doubt that the practices that the cia used saved lives and weakened al qaeda in your word that was inconproceed vertable. you heard senator mccain and what democrats said, they said
it didn't do any of that. how can people be so opposite in the conclusions? were you looking at the same set of facts that the democrats were? >> obviously we were, bob. of course john mccain is one more great american, he's my dear personal friend i have such great respect for him, he has an awful lot of credibility on this and every other issue he talks about. i do respect that. bob, i've been watching this intel come out of the interrogation program since it was initiated back in 2002. i've seen it on a regular daily basis. i was not briefed in to all of the eits early on, but let's just take one example. he was one of the three, you got to remember there were 789 detainees sent to gitmo. three out of 789 were waterboarded.
there were 766 actionable intelligence reports written from abu zubaydah. common sense and lodge week tell you some of those were -- some of those reports were the result of statements that abu made after he went through the eit program. let me say this most of them -- mows of those reports came after that. once he broke then he was just a treasure trove of information. so that is kind of incontrovertible of those who were there who heard the intel reports come in. the other thing i would say is, with respect to those brave men and women at the cia, we know exactly where we were on the morning of september 11th. abu zubaday two of the individuals subjected to waterboarding were the masterminds of 9/11. they are the ones who told those
9/11 hijackers, take those box cutters, go slit the throats of airline pilots and take over the airliners, fly those airplanes in to buildings, they did it, they killed americans. americans were scared to death. they were frustrated. they were in mourning and scared to death that something else like this might happen again. that's when this program was initiated. it was waterboarding was terminated in 2003 only applied to three individuals but they were the masterminds of this. a treasure trove from all three of them. >> schieffer: let me ask you this question. earlier this year it came to light that the cia had actually hacked in to the computers of investigators on this intelligence committee. now obviously that is wrong, that is seriously wrong and it had to be corrected.
but some are saying that this report came out because it was the committee staffs' way of getting back at that time the cia. do you think there is anything to that? >> no, i don't think so. i think long before we found out about what the cia had done relative to the senate side of the computers they were located at cia facility there was a determination by the leadership on the intel committee and by democratic members that this report needed to be made public. i don't think that. there is a commission that has that issue under investigation right now and i will tell you, if it is determined without question that they did breach the senate side of the computers, that's wrong. i have been very vocal about that and action needs to be taken if that was the case. >> schieffer: let me ask you this question. if the cia did get credible
information from using these methods, as you say they did, should they use these methods in the future if it becomes necessary? >> i think it's pretty obvious that cia back couple of years ago when they acknowledged that some things went wrong, they said some changes are going to be made. while they did -- they carried out this program and used these techniques under what we call color of law, ie department of justice under bush and subsequently under obama, made a determination that there were no crimes committed here, there was nothing prosecutorial, bush administration department of justice even determined that these enhanced interrogation techniques were legal, they were authorized by the department of justice. that's just a scenario under which these individuals carried it these interrogations. i think changes have been made.
there will be additional changes made as you -- as cia goes through review of this. >> schieffer: senator we'll have to leave it there. thank you so much for being with us and giving us your side of it. maine's independent, he supported release of this report along with the democrats. senator, glad to have you. when the cia says these programs worked, you said, what would you expect them to say. is this your way of saying they just misled the committee to justify what they did? >> one of the problems with this whole project was that they asked the people who were conducting the interviews to do their own evaluation, what is somebody going to say, paid $80 million, these are outside consultants managing this interrogation process they said of course it's working. i think there was misleading of the committee and it's detailed in the report. understatement of what was
actually done, over statement of what was achieved and it's pretty clear as john mccain said, read the report. i sat all one week in the secure facility last spring and read the 500 pages, it's pretty -- >> schieffer: misleading congress that's serious, what should be done about it? >> i don't think so looking back and prosecuting all those kind of things is productive. the important thing about this to me, bob, we learned from it. and we decided we're not going to do it again because it's not what america is. this is an exceptional country. but it's not because we're smarter or better looking or have oil deposits or grand mountains, it's because we're based on an ideal going back to the very origin of the country, george washington in 1777 in the middle of the revolutionary war when he was losing that war, when he conveyed british prisoners to his people the order was, treat them with humanity let them have no reason
to complain about copying the brutal example of the british army. >> schieffer: you said people don't think people misleading congress, no action should be taken at this point. i assume you also mean that for people if they did commit these practices that have since been started. do you think it is time as some of your colleagues believe to clean out the cia from top to bottom? >> i do think that -- one of the things shook me about this, because of the misleading of congress how do we conduct our oversight function if we can't fully believe what we're being told. that's how we do oversight, we call witnesses, tell us what is going on. i think that's very serious question. and how do we perform that. i do think, i know john brennan, i respect john brennan, i think he stood up in a big way this week deserves credit for that. on the other hand i think as a general rule it probably would be good idea in the future to
have leaders of the cia come from outside of the cia just as we have civilian always in charge of the pentagon. >> schieffer: do you think john brennan should resign? >> i don't think he should resign. the president has conany dense in him. he stepped up in my mind there's very important thing he said goes to your first question about, does it work. for years we've been hearing it works, we're still hearing it from the apologists this week, vice president cheney said it again this morning. john brennan and cia official position it's unknowable whether it works. and that i think is a big change and really speaks volumes to the effectiveness. >> schieffer: thank you. we'll have to end it there. we'll hear from the chairman of the house intelligence committee, mike rogers, later in the broadcast. we'll talk about the other big story topic of conversation race in america. i have a cold
bob yesterday civil rights leaders and families and supporters of victims eric garner, michael brown held a national day of protest in washington tens of thousands marched demanding better treatment of minorities at the hands of police, among speakers of eric garner's mother. >> you know our son, they may not be here in body but they are -- >> schieffer: -- and everyone of you. >> you brought them here today. >> schieffer: we turn now to the head of the national urban league, one of the organizers of the march, marc morial he's also the former mayor of new orleans also husband of cbs news correspondent michelle miller he joins us from new york. as a former mayor, what do you
think local governments need to do, what was the purpose of these protests and what do you want to happen now? >> so, we have articulated ten important points around police reform and police accountability. and i think that the changes that need to happen in this nation, this is a moment when these changes are truly needed and necessary, have to be carried out not only in washington by legislative changes, by the justice department or the president, but my mayors, police chiefs and local communities. my experience in new orleans taught me in the '90s when we basically engineered comprehensive remake of the new orleans police department that you can have a safe city and an accountable police department. and the two can go hand in hand. so the changes we seek obviously are a shift away from what i would call a broken window or
stop and frisk approach the police, more of community policing model which focuses on violent crime. but also relationships between police and the communities they serve. this outpouring that you see which is really an american movement of all backgrounds, race and colors and religion was sparked because we've had this seemingly unprecedented number of high profile incidents where unarmed black men have been killed by the police and it seems to not be any accountability for those actions. and the protests are really directed at the lack of accountability so we're going to have to focus on what is needed to create a better system of accountability since it appears that juries are not inclined even with the eric garner case it was obvious in the world to take action. >> schieffer: let me ask you this. as you well know the department of justice is investigating both of these cases.
what if those investigations determine there was not wrongdoing on the part of the police, what will the reaction be of the black community? >> well, i think the reaction not only in the black community but i think those who want accountability and justice is going to be great degree of disappointment. i think it's premature to prejudge how those investigations might materialize. history of the rodney king incident, incident in new york city, indicated that in many cases where the justice department does step in after the fact can achieve justice, i have great faith that the attorney general, the united states attorneys will be completely thorough in their investigations, that's really what we want. just so many questions around the grand jury system in missouri, the grand jury system
here in staten island. indeed even today the prosecutor in missouri had to apologize yesterday that there was some testimony that he didn't release when he said he made all of the testimony public. >> schieffer: i'm very sorry we'll have to stop it here. thank you so much. we'll be back in a minute. >> thanks for having me. daughter: do you and mom still have money with that broker? dad: yeah, 20 something years now. thinking about what you want to do with your money? daughter: looking at options. what do you guys pay in fees? dad: i don't know exactly. daughter: if you're not happy do they have to pay you back? dad: it doesn't really work that way. daughter: you sure? vo: are you asking enough questions about the way your wealth is managed? wealth management at charles schwab.
>> schieffer: you heard varying opinions of the cia report now here is mine. i do believe the cia went too far in the interrogation tactics it adopted? yes. did they get valuable information i simply don't know. republicans on the senate intelligence committee and cia say yes. democrats as you heard say, no. what are we to make of that? i've known most of the people on this committee for years, they are good people. i wouldn't question any of their characters. the days after 9/11 though were unlike anything the american people have ever gone through. i'll never forget those hours after the planes hit the twin towers. we were blindsided. some people who died were friends of mine. knowing our frame of mind then, it is hard for me to condemn those who were trying to prevent a second attack which they
thought was imminent. but what i don't understand how good people on this committee can look at the same set of facts and come to such different conclusions. what i do know is that i never want to go through another 9/11, preventing that should be the government's priority and whether this report's release is helpful to that is not all that clear to me. back in a minute. affects millio. and for many, it's a struggle to keep your a1c down. so imagine, what if there was a new class of medicine that works differently to lower blood sugar? imagine, loving your numbers. introducing once-daily invokana®. it's the first of a new kind of prescription medicine that's used along with diet and exercise to lower blood sugar in adults with type 2 diabetes. invokana® is a once-daily pill that works around the clock to help lower a1c. here's how: the kidneys allow sugar to be absorbed back into the body. invokana® reduces the amount of sugar allowed back in, and
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