tv Face the Nation CBS June 7, 2020 8:30am-9:31am PDT
captioning sponsored by cbs >> brennan: i'm margaret brennan in washington. this week on "face the nation," as americans push to mend the racial divide, conflict continues between the public and our leaders on how to get there. we'll speak exclusively with attorney general william barr, and former secretary of state condoleezza rice. from washington to philadelphia and chicago to san francisco, saturday saw the largest demonstrations of support yet for cracking down on police brutality and ending racism following the death of george floyd. the overwhelming majority of the protests were peaceful, and the message was pointed: americans have had enough of scenes like
the death of george floyd. and this incident from buffalo, where police officers have been charged with a felony after knocking a 75-year-old man to the ground and leaving him there. when and how will this end? in cities like minneapolis, they have moved to ban the use of knee-ho-neck holds but some americans are clamoring for more action. president trump's answer to the problem is law and order, from local law enforcement, the national guard, or even the military. >> you have to dominate streets. you can't let what's happening happen. >> brennan: we'll talk to the president's attorney general, william barr. plus the problems within our society. despite a lower-than-anticipated jobless rate for may, the number of unemployed african americans increased to almost 17%. how do we level the playing field? former secretary of state
condoleezza rice will join us. finally, a look at the potential impact of the not-so-socially-distanced protests, with former f.d.a. commissioner dr. scott gottlieb. it's all just ahead on "face the nation." >> brennan: good morning, and welcome to "face the nation." across the country, there is a collective sigh of relief following a day and night in which the vast majority of protests were peaceful. but america's widening rarnl divide, on top of the nation's economic and medical crisis, is painful. political commentator bakara sellers may have put it best when he told our "cbs this morning" colleagues, "this is like 1918 meets 1968. you have a great pandemic, and you have a country that is teetering on edge" with that, we begin with kris
van cleave. he has been covering the protests in the streets of the nation's capital since they began. >> reporter: margaret, good morning. a week ago, this fencing wasn't here. it is separating where the protests have been from the white house and has become a bit of a mural. now, early this morning, we want to show you some video, d.c.'s mayor murrial bowser and congressman and civil rights leader john lewis came out here as the city was cleaning up yesterday. the congressman called the protests "moving and impressive." washington, d.c. besieged by peaceful protest. huge crowds marched from the capitol and the lincoln memorial, flooding the streets outside the white house, unified in the message painted on the road below their feet, "black lives matter." >> we just want justice. we just want to stop being killed. >> reporter: protests nationally were large and generally peaceful, but it remained tense in portland, oregon. after police gave orders to disspurious overnight, officers were seen forcing people back
with batons and flash-backs were used in seattle. it's been a week that has torn at the fabric of our nation: the death of george floyd at the hand of police. cbs news has learned monday morning president trump demanded 10,000 active-duty troops be deployed to major cities. defense secretary mark esper and attorney general bill barr pushed back in #dñr heated oval office meeting. hours later, this moment, as police in riot gear moved peaceful protesters for a presidential photo op. 7:00 p.m. saturday, and what a difference a week makes. gone are the officers in riot gear, replaced by a sea of peaceful demonstrators with a serious message. they say they're not leaving until they're heard. we met the gebra family at the white house. it was 11-year-old's ezira idea to come. throughout this country, a difficult conversation about race, even between protesters and police. >> we're here to listen.
we're here to hear you out, and, you know, i absolutely commend what you're doing. >> i want systemic change. >> reporter: those 10,000 active-duty troops that president trump wanted were never deployed, but thousands of national guard from around the country were. d.c.'s mayor is deunderstand maaing they be sent home. margaret. >> brennan: earlier this morning, i went to the jupt to speak with attorney general bill barr. in his role as the nation's top law enforcement officer, he used the full force of the federal government, including agents from the f.b.i., a.t.f., border patrol, bureau prisons and the drug enforcement administration, to end the looting and violence that happened earlier in the week in washington. 1600 active-duty troops were also
put on standby. a senior administration official told our cbs' david martin that in a meeting at the white house on monday morning, the president
demanded that 10,000 active-duty troops be ordered into american streets. is that accurate? >> no, that's completely false. that's completely false. sunday night-- >> brennan: the president did not demand that? >> no, he did not demand that. >> brennan: what happened? >> i came over on monday morning for a meeting. the night before had been the most violent, as one of the police officials told us, the d.c. police, it was the most violent day in washington in 30 years, something that the media has not done a very good job of covering. and there had been a riot right along lafayette park. i was called over and asked if i would coordinate federal civil agencies, and that the defense department would provide whatever support i needed or we needed to protect federal property at the white house, federal personnel. the decision was made to have at the ready and on hand in the
vicinity some regular troops. but everyone agreed that use of regular troops is a last resort, and that as long as matters can be controlled with other resources they should be. i felt-- and the secretary of defense felt-- we had adequate resources and wouldn't need to use federal troops. but in case we did, we wanted them nearby. there was never-- the president never asked or suggested that we needed to deploy regular troops at that point. it's been done from time to time in our history. we try to avoid it. and i'm happy that we werably to avoid it on this occasion. >> brennan: so there were active-duty troops put on standby. they were not deployed. the 82nd airborne was put on standby, but not sent into the streets. >> the 82nd airborne military police were brought into the area, but they were not brought into d.c. >> brennan: so what part-- i just want to make sure-- what part of that conversation, as it's been relaid to cbs and to
other news organizations, is false? did the president not demand active-duty troops? >> well, your question to me just a moment ago was did he demand them on the street? did he demand them on d.c.? no we had them on standby, in case they were needed. >> brennan: which they were put on standby. they were not deployed. >> right. >> brennan: so in our reporting, we were also told that you, the defense secretary, mark esper, and general mili all opposed idea of actually deploying these active-duty troops on to the street. is that accurate? >> i think our position was common, which was that they should only be deployed as a last resort. and that we didn't think we would need them. i think everyone was on the same page. >> brennan: do you think that the president has the authority to unilaterally send in active-duty troops if the governors oppose it?
>> oh, absolutely. under the anti-insurrection act, the president can use regular troops to suppress rioting. the confederacy in our country opposed the use of federal troops to restore order and suprus an insurrection so the federal government sometimes doesn't listen to governors in circumstances. >> brennan: the last time that this has happened was the l.a. riots in 1992, when the governor of california asked for active-duty troops. >> that's correct. >.>> brennan: you're saying-- and your understanding as the law would interpret it and you would support is the president has the ability to put active-duty troops on american streets, even if governors object? >> it's happened numerous times and the answer to that is yes. >> brennan: you would support that? >> well, it depends on the circumstances. i was involved in the l.a. riots in the rodney king matter. we tried to use nonmilitary
forces. i sent 2,000 federal law enforcement officers out there in one day, but it was overwhelming. and the national guard couldn't handle it, and governor pete wilson asked for federal troops. >> brennan: he asked for them. >> yes. >> brennan: that's a key distinction. >> he approved of use of federal troops. but those troops were on standby as well. >> brennan: because i think a number of people would be surprised to hear, and it's been reported you opposed sending in active-duty troops on principle. you're saying you would support it. >> as a last resort. >> brennan: so in this monday meeting with the president, when the defense secretary, who has now publicly said that he opposed using the insurrection act, you said what to the president? >> i don't think the secretary of defense said he opposed it. i think he said that it was a last resort, and he didn't think it was necessary. i think we all agree that it's a
last resort, but it's ultimately the president's decision. the reporting is completely false on this. >> brennan: do you believe there is systemic racism in law enforcement? >> i think there's racism in the united states still, but i don't think that the law enforcement system is systemically racist. i understand the distrust, however, of the african american community, given the history in this country. i think we have to recognize that for most of our history, our institutions were explicitly racist. since the 1960s, i think we've been in a phase of reforming our institutions and making sure that they're in sync with our laws and aren't fighting the rear guard action to impose inequities. >> brennan: and you think that's working? >> i think reform is a difficult task, but i think it is working, and progress has been made. i think one of the best and whichs is the military. the military used to be explicitly racist institution, and now i think it's in the vanguard of bringing the races
together and providing equal opportunity. i think law enforcement has been going through the same process. >> brennan: do you think there should be some tweaking of the rules, reduced immunity, to go after some of the bad cops? >> i don't think you need to reduce immunity to go after the bad cops, because that would result, certainly, in police pulling back. you know, policing is the toughest job in the country. and i-- and i, frankly, think that we have, generally, the vast overwhelming majority of police are good people. they're civic-minded people who believe in serving the public. they do so bravely. they do so reichously. >> brennan: but the bad cops. >> i think there are instances of bad cops, and i think we have to be careful about automatically assuming that the actions of an individual necessarily mean that their organization is rotten. all organizations have people who engage in this conduct, and you sometimes have to be careful as to when you arb scribe that to the whole organization, and
when it really is some errant member who isn't following the rules. >> brennan: but doesn't opening the pattern of practice investigation in places like minneapolis where there are questions about the broader issues with policing. it wasn't just the one officer. wouldn't that answer that question? >> well, that's exactly the reaction that i think has been a problem in the past, which is it-- again, just reacting to this incident by immediately putting the department under investigation doesn't necessarily result in improving the situation. but i would say, that in the first instance, the governor has announced an investigation of the police department, the governor, governor walz, a democratic governor, is investigating the police department. the attorney general of minnesota is looking into the police department. we stand ready to act if we think it's necessary, but i don't think necessarily starting a pattern of practice investigation at this stage is
warranted. another thing is, we have to look at some of the evidence. i mean, people-- you know, the fact is that the criminal justice system at both the state and the federal level moved instantaneously on ghep moved quickly with our investigation. but we still have to look into what kind of use-of-force policies are used in that department, what the training has been, smoos not something we can do overnight. >> golodryga: coming up after our break, the attorney general tells us about the forceable clearing of lafayette park ahead of the president's visit there on monday. also, i want to make sure to note that cbs stands by our davidavid martin's reporting, ae want to clarify here that the secretary of defense, esper, does oppose the insurrection act. you can hear for yourself. >> i do not support invoking the insurrection act. >> brennan: we'll be back in one minute.
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/ back nowwilliamçuixdxgi want f the events of the week. on monday, lafayette park was cleared of protesters. you've spoken about this. the federal agents who were there report up to you. did you think it was appropriate for them toxd use smoket(okñi bf tear gas, pepper balls, projectiles, at what appeared to be peaceful protesters? >> theyñ>protesters and that's e big lies the media seems to beçó perpetuating. >> brennan: three of my cbs colleagues were there, we talked to them. they did not hear warnings. >> there were three warnings. let's get back toçó why we took that action. on friday, saturday, and sunday, okay, there were violent riots in-- at lafayette park, where the park police were under0l constant attackçó behindç(áheir bike rack fences. onçó sunday, things reachedçó a
crescendo. the officers were pummeled with bricks. crow bars were used to pry up the pavers at the park, and they were hurled at police. there were fires set in not onló st. john's church but açhistoric building at lafayette burned down. >> brennan: these were things that looters did. >> not looters. these othe were the violent rios who dominated lafayette park. >> brennan: it was a peaceful protest-- >> let me get to this. this has been totally obscured by the media. they broke into the treasury department. and they were injuring police. that;w> night-- >> brennan: sunday night. >> sunday night, the park police prepared a plan to clear h. street and put a larger perimeter around the swhois they could build a more-permanent fence on lafayette. >> brennan: this is on sunday
night? >> the park police on their own on sunday night determined this was the proper approach. when i came inxdñrñrñiu toñr increase the perimeter and push it out one block. that decision was made by me. in theñr morning, the effort was to move the perimeter one block. and itñiçó had to be done when e had enough people in place to achieve that. and thatñi decisio%$asñi içó sas communicated to the police at 2:00 p.m. the operation was run by the park police. the park police was facing what they consider to be a very rowdr and noncompliant crowd, and there wereñi projectiles being hurled at the police. and at that point, it was not to respond-- >> brennan: on monday, you're saying there were projectiles. >> on monday, yes, there were. >> brennan: as i'm saying three of my colleagues were there. they did not see projectiles
being thrown. >> i was there, i was there. >.>> brennan: when that happened. >> i saw them thrown. >> brennan: you believe what our police did, using tear gas and projectiles, was appropriate. >> here's what the media's missing. this was not an operation to respond to that particular crowd. it was an operation to move the perimeter one block. >> brennan: and the methods they used, you think, were appropriate? is that what you're saying? >> when they met resistance, yes. they announced three times. they didn't move-- by the way, there was no tear gas used. the tear gas was
used sunday when they had to clear h. street to allow the fire department to come in to save st. john's church. >> brennan: there were chemical irtants. >> pepper spray is not a chemical irritant. it's not chemical. >> brennan: pepper spray you're saying were used. >> peber balls. >> brennan: and you believe that was appropriate. a lot of people at home watching this on television, what they
saw and their perception of events. i want you to see what the public at home saw. >> a president of law and order and aally of all peaceful protesters, but in recent days our nation has been gripped by professional anarchists, violent mobz, arsonists, looters, criminals, rioters,oo, antifa ad others. >> brennan: while the president is saying he appreciates peacefulçóxdçóñiok . >> innocent people have been savagely beaten. >> brennan: around the same time-- >> six minutes' difference. >> brennan: right. around the same time, the area is being cleared of what appear to be people protesters, use something force. and after the speech is finished, the president then walks out of the white house to the same area where the protesters had been, and stands for a photo op in front of the church, where the protesters had
been. these events looked very connected to people at home. in an environment where the broader debate is about heavy-handed use of force in law enforcement, was that the right message northerns to be receiving? >> well, the message is sometimes communicated by the media. i didn't see any video being played on the media what was happening friday, saturday, and sunday. all i heard was comments about how peaceful the protesters were. i didn't hear about the fact that there were 150 law enforcement officers injured and many taken to the hospital with concussions. so it wasn't a peaceful protest. we had to get control over lafayette park, and we had to do it as soon as we were able to do that. >> brennan: but you understand how these events appear connected. >> well, it's the job of the media to tell the truth. >> brennan: this is what i'm asking you. did you know when you gave the green light for these actions to be taken that the president was
going to be going to that very same area for a photo op? >> i gave the green light at 2:00. obviously, i didn't know that the president was going to be speak later that day. >> brennan: you had no idea. >> no, noir not. the go-ahead was given at 2:00 and to do it as soon as we were able to do it. to move from the perimeter from h. street to i. street. >> brennan: we're bothñr catholic. i know you're observant, a devout catholic. the archbishop dwhenl-- is whatw there doing what you meant when you were on that call with governors and you said to dominate the streets. is that what law enforcement is supposed to be taking away from this? >> no, on the contrary. my point to the governors-- and
what i was saying was that it's important when you're dealing with civil disturbances to have adequate forces at hand and out and about so you can control events and and not be controlled by events, and it's more dwrus for everybody if you have these mild melees with thin thinly manned police lines running after protesters with batons and it's important to have adequate forces on the street. and so we were encouraging them, where they were stretched thin, to call out national guard if necessary to restore order. that's what i was talking about. i would say that-9particular-- e protesters, sometimes peaceful demonstrators, for a short distance in order to accomplish public safety, and that's what was done here. >> brennan: so there was nothing you think should have been donel done differently in hindsight. >> i haven't studied the events
retrospectively in detail, but generally, you had qualified law enforcement officials with shields, warning and moving a line slowly. they had mounted officers moving slowly, directed people
to move. and most people complied. >> brennan: all right. mr. attorney general, we have more questions for you, but i'm tweld are out of time. thank you. >> brennan: our full interview with the attorney general will soon be available on our beness hope you'll watch. we'll be back in a moment. feel the cool rush
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>> brennan: in addition to former seeps experience as a diplomat. she's now an educator a director of the hoover nugz at stanford university. she's also the great-great granddaughter of a slave owner. ands -- a child was a friend of one of the young girls killed in the 1963 birmingham church bombing. she was just a block away when it happened. we spoke to her earlier and asked her what she thinks is different about today's movement. >> people are a little bit sick and tired of being sick and tired, to quote the great civil
rights leader, fanny lieu hager, and i think that is leading to people of different backgrounds, different color, different experiences to say how can we make the outcome different this time and leading people to look at questions about our criminal justice system, about the justice of our institutions. but more importantly, it's looking-- having us look in the mirror at questions about race. it's a very, very deep and abiding wound in an america that was born with a birth defect of slavery. and i'm really hoping that this time we'll have really honest conversations, the conversations that are not judgmental, conversations that are deep, but honest conversations about what we've been through and who we want to be. >> brennan: you wrote in an opinion piece recently that "protests will take our country only so far and if we are to make progress, let us check the language of reclaimation at the door." what did you mean by that. >> we have a very painful
history. europeans and africans came to this country together. africans came in chains. my d.n.a. is 40% european. my great-great-grandfather was my great-grandmother's slave owner. that's a very hard truth. but it is a truth of the past. we now have tuke about how to move forward. and when i talk to people of different colors, particularly my white friends, my white colleagues, i don't want it to be in the language of recrimination. i want it to be in the language of how do we move forward. i think we each have an individual responsibility-- it's a collective responsibility, yes, but it's an individual responsibility to ask wha, "wham i going to do, specifically, what am i going to do to help heal these wounds and move our country forward?" because race is still very much a factor in everyday life in america. >> brennan: you said for you personally, answering the question of "what do i do?"
you focused on education. >> i come from a family where my grandfather managed to, as a share krorp's son, to get educated in alabama in the 1920s. education was always, for us, a way tbre to break through the barriers of prejudice, and education is not a shield against prejudice, but it gives people a fighting chance. if you look at this covid-19 crisis, it has exposed even deeper inequalities in our society. just imagine being a child twhriegz to learwho'strying to e parents don't speak english, the parents descrent educational background of their own. and contrast that with the kid whose parents are well educated and can read to them. we've got a whrorvth to do around inequality. >> brennan: and to your bienlt. it seems to be widening the existing divide. just looking at the data, the jobles rate in this country for
the black community ticked up in may to 17%, and black women, in particular, are bearing the brunt of that. where do you see the policy solutions coming from right now? >> this crise has exacerbated problems that were there already. and we displowrses, are we just going to say, well, my goodness, look at what we've seen. are we really going to act? we know in this crisis, if you can 23w4r0er7b8gs work from home, if you are capable of being on the internet, you can continue to work. you're not unemployed. knowledge workers are doing better. let's say every american is going to have broadband. every american is going to have access to internet. it means people in rural areas, it means people in schools that are not well-endowed. >> brennan: if you were advising this particular president, what would you be telling him to do at this glierntle i would asmoment? >> i would ask the president to
first and forsmeskt in the language of unity, the language of empathy. not everyone is going to agree with any president wthis president. but you have to speak to every american, glowf glowft to thoseo might agree with you. you have to speak about the deep wounds that we have, and that we're going to overcome them. i have heard the president talked about the resilience of americans. i would loaf too hear more of that. twitter and tweeting are not great ways for complex thoughts, for complex messages. when the president speaks, it needs to be from a place of thoughtfulness, from a place of having hond the message. and glowft the president. i would like to hear it from the leaders in congress from both sides of the aisle.
i whrowstled to hear it from mayors and others. leaders at this particular point need to do everything they can to koample, sphwhients our divisions. >> brennan: he has mourned george floyd's death, but he has used language like, "when the looting starts, the shooting starts." he said his supporters love "the black people." when you hear phrases like that, how does that land with you? do you just dismiss it because it's president trump? >> well, no. the president, obviously, the shooting and looting, he said that he didn't know that historical context. and so i would say think about the historical context before you say something because it is a deep wound. and the presidency is special in that regard. people look 209 the oval office as we have looked to the oval office throughouture history, for messages, for signals. as i said, the president has used some language that i i
really very, very much admire, like "the revillience of the american people." just be careful about those messages. i'm not advising the president. but if i were, i'd say let's put tweeting aside for a little bit, and talk to us. have a conversation with us. and i think we need that, and i think he can do it. >> brennan: retired general jim matis said it wasn't, in his interpretation, unintentional. in fact, he said, "donald trump is the first president in my lifetime who did flight to unite the american people. he does 23407b9 even pretend to try. instead he tries to divide us." do you believe it's intentional? do you agree with matis. >> i have enormous respect for jim matis. he's a patriot. he's my friend. and he spoke to something he needed to speak to. what i want speak to is the future, and what we do here over the next several 13w450e7bgz are
having protests that need to be peaceful, but we have always moved ahead by part in protest. there's no excuse for the criminality and looting. that's not whe are and what we are. i will tell you, as somebody who grew up in birmingham alabama, jim crow alabama, when a black man was shot by a policeman it wouldn't even be a footnote in the newspaper. i'm really grateful to people who are goingute now and saying, "no, that is snenlt." i'm grateful to nems tblowng support good police who are thinking about how stument of those people who put their lives on the line every day to protect us. but also to say too those who do snrowrt best interest at heart, who diernthd that obligation to protect and defend without regard to color, enough. we won't put up with that,
either. so this is a time for every american to speak to our unity but to also be very cogniz anthony of how we describe our differences, hue we addressure differences, and, especially, how we address one another with empathy. >> brennan: is there any circumstance in which you think it would be acceptable in these days to use what the president said to governors he would use, which was the insurrection act, to send active-duty military into american cities? >> well, i would absolutely advise against it, particularly at this time. look, the founding fathers were very smart about this. tooms jefer soon talked about the citizen soldier, and the emboodiment of the citizen soldier is the national guard and reserve. they come from the community. they are of these communities. they are trained in everything
from dealing with natural disasters to dealing with issues like crowd control. and when the local police kent handle it, the national guard's the right-- the right answer. our military isn't trained to do this. our military is trained for the battlefield. and this isn't a battlefield in that sense. >> brennan: some of america's adversaries-- russia, iran, china-- they are using the images of what happened too mr. floyd and what is happening on the streets of american cities right now, in their own state propaganda. do you see this racial divide as a national security threat to us? >> i would say to fleez in places like china and russia and iran, who may want to use this for propaganda, let's not be absurd. this is men square, where you dmoind people who disagreed with the government. this is not the invasion of
crimea, where you took land from your neighbor. this is not the greenñi revolutn in iran where you killed people wantonly because they wouldn't agree with the thecrattic government. and i would even say to our friends abroad, in places like europe, where w'm seeing demonstrations in support of what is happening here, thank you for your support. but please look in the mirror. please ask yourself in countries in europe, in countries all across the world, what are you doing about racial and ethnic inequality in your own circumstances? america has gotten better because we have been willing to confront our problems. and we're going to confrowrnt problems again. we're confronting them now, and i think we will move forward this time. but i really don't need to be lectured by vladimir putin and
xi jiping about peaceful protest when they have themselves used their own force when people have criticized the government. that is not what is happening here. >> brennan: noted. madam secretary, you did not support president trump in 2016. seeing what you have seen, will you support him in 2020? >> as i've often said, when i'm ready to speak about american politics, i'll come back to you, and you'll be the first to know when i want to speak about american politics. right now, what i want to speak to is my fellow americans and to understand the deep divisions that we have, to understand what it is to be black. you asked about the military earlier. let's remember, too, that our people in uniform also come from different backgrounds. they come from different races. they're united in a common cause. but this is hard for them, too, and i know that their commanders are aware of the painful
conversations that need to be-- need to take place, even within our military. but one great thing is when we unite for a common cause, as they often do, it helps us to overcome those differences. >> brennan: madam secretary, thank you for your reflections and your time today. >> it's a pleasure being with you. god bless. >> brennan: secretary rice mentioned the international show of support. cbs news senior foreign correspondent elizabeth palmer reports on that movement around the world. >> reporter: in london, thousands poured sphwrets around permanent on saturday, in solidarity with american protesters. their message: black lives matter everywhere, and so does justice. >> what do we want? >> justice! >> when do we want it? >> now! >> reporter: george floydee death galvanized demonstrators from berlin stoll, sout seoul, o
syney, australia, where it has a special resonance, especially among aboriginal people beaten ear killed in custody. in 2015, australia had its own george floyd, david dunga, who died in custody shouting, "i can't breathe." as the sign says, "same story, different soil." there's the same anger, too. though, overall, the protests this weekend were peaceful. in london, police skirmished briefly with a small knot of demonstrators, and there was a flurry of excitement when a police hearsay bolted. but the main message, coming from the mostly young multiracial crowd is "enough is enough." and to americans, "you are not alone." margaret, once again today, thousands of londoners are breaking the lockdown rules. they've come out to stage a fresh priest today in front of the american embassy. >> brennan: liz palmer, thank
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you can count on us. >> brennan: we go now to dr. scott gottlieb. he joins us from westport, connecticut. good morning to you. >> good morning. >> brennan: dr. fauci in an interview on friday said these protests are a perfect setup for the spread of the virus. so even though these protesters are young and wearing masks, you believe this will ignite more of an outbreak. >> well, we're certainly going to see transmission coming out of these gatherings. the there's no question about that. the prevalence in the united states of infection right now is one in 200 people. you can estimate how many people probably have the infection in these gatherings. i think the idea of reducing the risk from these protests is a shared responsibility. there are steps that the protesters can take. and and you see many of them wearing masks in these protests and understanding the risks. there are also things authorities can do, i think, in
terms of how they deescalate the situation. the best science we have is a recent study that came out of germany, where there were large gathering in germany, and they looked at what the spread was coming out of those gatherings. these were festive gathers, but they were large nonetheless. there was a 2.5-time increase in the rate of transmission as a result of bringing people together in large gathers. so we have an understanding that these kinds of settings do create risks. >> brennan: these protests are happening in places that are largely hot spots-- minneapolis, washingtonwashington, d.c. i kw houston, texas, where george floyd's body is going to be buried in this coming week, also expects large crowds. what are you seeing in those places? >> well, if the protesters understood the risks, many of them, i think that's evidenced by the fact they wore masks and they made a judgment that, you know, they were worth the risk in terms of going out and protesting what are legitimate
underlying grievances. i think you're right. these are occurring in hot spots. we're likely to see cases go up. i think trying to tease out what the contribution is from the protests versus the contribution just of the general reopening is going to be hard. when you look at cities like new york city, where cases have come down dramatically, you have below 100 hospitalizations a day right now, i think we're probably going to see an uptick. we're going to see an uptick in other major cities where there have been these protests. it's hard to judge just how much right now, and it's going to take a couple of weeks. we're probably going to have to get a few transmission cycles out to judge what the impact was. i think what the protesters can do is try to take precautions-- wear masks, distance where they can, and try to avoid things like getting in contact with elderly people, people who are vulnerable, after attending these protests. >> brennan: i know a number of mayors have told attendees to go get a covid test. i want to ask you where we are with vaccines. you know, secretary azar was on this program just about three weeks ago, and he told us the
administration was going to unveil their four to six selections for a vaccine, the final candidates. "the new york times" reported this week that's going to be imminent. what is the delay here? >> well, i'm not sure there's a delay. there was reporting this week that looked like it came off administration official thereas they made a selection of at least five candidates. those were two rna-based vaccines where you deliver the genetic material from the virus to code for the production of the protein in the virus you want people to develop antibodies against. and three vaccines using viral vectors to deliver that same protein. it's called a spike protein, what the virus used to invade our cells. i'm on the board of one company developing one platform, the mrn platform. that's pfizer. i think they should include older vaccines in that mix. so in addition to the novelty, which is likely to deliver more
immunogenissity, that's the judgment they're making. they should probably fall back on older style vaccines as well. that's what the chinese is doing, using old-style vaccines and they may beat us to the market on that. they may have vaccines that are less protective but get to market earlier and are probably making the judgment that partial protection earlier is better than full protection later. >> brennan: you told us the candidates were oxford, astrazeneca, moderna, johnson & johnson. what should be added to that? >> what was added was sonofi. the five you mentioned were the five with the exception of sonofi. it's based on the same platform used to develop their flu vaccine. i think that should be included. i'm not aware how far along they are whether there were issues with the development plan that caused regulators, or public health officials to make
judgment not to include that. perhaps they will include that. the other company that has a protein-based vaccine that appears to be far along going into the studies is nova vax. i would reach back and include some older-style approaches in addition to the novelty. the issue si think, the more novel approaches are going to be more immunogenetic, probably. >> brennan: dr. gotly
>> brennan: we asked one of the most prolific writers we know for his thoughts this week. here's john dickerson. >> reporter: in his inaugural address, president trump promised that... >> the forgotten men and women of our country will be forgotten no longer. >> reporter: he promised action on behalf of those who had been ignored by the powerful and to fix a system that had kept them ignored. this week, protesters took to the streets to fix a broken system. they marched on behalf of forgotten men and women. george floyd, breona taylor, ahmad arbry-- forgotten that
they were citizens, forgotten tat they were human. president george w. bush said floyd's death resulted from systemic racism, the latest in a long series of tragedies, not incidents, but victims of a system that had forgotten them. the marchers pushing across the nation sought justice, which starts with a recognition. some answer was required to the cry of pain to show that it was heard, not in the ear but in the heart. justice requires a hearing. this was a moment for a president. a few paragraphs and the usual brief febrilation of public care were not enough. in a nation dedicated to equality, the president is the one official who represents everybody and who could use his office to focus national concern. a president could bear witness. we know what it looks like when a president considers an issue vital. he takes emergency action. when he doesn't, that sends a
signal, too. monday night, president trump made his emergency move. he walked from the white house to st. john's, the church of the presidents, spending the full armory of political capital, symbolism, and concern. he did so not as a balm but a rebuke. he held the bible not for comfort but as a cudgel. protesters had come to the white house to ask that their agony not be swept aside this time. the law and order president's show of force they were swept aside by shield and smoke. it will not soon be forgotten, which is what the forgotten men and women and their allies hoped the president would help them say about their cause, too. >> brennan: we'll be talking with john next week about his new book "the hardest job in the world." we'll see you then. thank you, all, for watching. i switched to miralax for my constipation.
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