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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  July 4, 2013 12:00am-1:01am PDT

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president obama, secretary of state kerry, and the rest of the american team i assume are giving this one all they've got. and that's hardball for now. thanks for being with us. have a safe and happy fourth of july. all in with chris hayes starts right now. good evening, from new york, i'm chris hayes. what you just heard is the moment today that egyptian security forces apparently stormed the studios of al jazeera television in cairo during what is being called a military coup. millions have taken to the streets in celebration, and president morsi is reportedly under house arrest. we will go live to egypt in a moment.
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also, last night the president of bolivia was essentially stopped and frisked in the global effort to capture the nsa leaker edward snowden. today that is really not going over very well. new details about what went down in that extraordinary story. plus, some day i would genuinely love to come before you and do a story about how the big banks are not scamming people any more. not forcing minimum wage workers to pay to get their own paychecks, that night is not tonight sadly. my commentary on this latest outrage is coming up. we begin in egypt, where the military backed by millions of people in the street has overthrown that country's first democratically elected president. a senior adviser to the freedom and justice party and spokesperson for the muslim brotherhood has just confirmed to our reporter that former president mohammed morsi has been placed under house arrest. by the republican guard. in fact, by the republican guard club. most members of the former president's team have also been placed under house arrest.
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the day started with a fast approaching dead line issued to the military on monday to respond to the mass protests or risk intervention. yesterday in his last public address to the country. morsi was defy an the. today military made good on their promise of intervention. this morning military forces started to gather around cairo and around egyptian state tv. >> this morning, we watched as truckloads of police reenforced the headquarters of state television. the army's reported to be inside. the army denied it had taken control. amid rumors all day that it would take over the airwaves in a military coup. >> egypt is in the midst of a full military coup. morsi had been informed he is no longer president of egypt. minutes later, it was announced the military was suspending the constitution, calling for early presidential elections and
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installing chief justice monsoor as the interim president. this was the scene in tahrir square following the announcement. president morsi and his supporters remained defy an the throughout the day, in a statement released to a presidential spokesperson. morsi who is now under house arrest, cat gore rickly rejected what he called a military coup. ayman mohyeldin is live in cairo with the latest. ayman about you reported on the house arrest that morsi has been placed under. what can you tell us about that? >> what we do know is only coming out from members of the muslim brotherhood. no confirmation yet from the egyptian military or egyptian police. they have confirmed other arrest that is have been made, but for the time being so far, it is only the spokesperson for the muslim brotherhood, and the senior adviser to the freedom
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and justice party who says that former president mohammed morsi has been placed under house arrest, along with several other members of the presidential team, including dr. hadad. who is senior foreign policy adviser to the president and a man who's been to washington several times. he too, we understand, has been put under house arrest at this time. we're still working to get an official confirmation on that from egyptian security sources. the egyptian police, though, have also made the announcement that they have made some arrests involving senior figures of other organizations. organizations that were allied to president mohammed morsi and the muslim brotherhood. and more importantly, that both of those pieces of news, is that their egyptian police has also shut down the satellite channels of several affiliated organizations or media organizations affiliated with the muslim brotherhood and other religious parties here in egypt out of fear that they may be insighting the crowds in the coming hours.
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so a lot of rapid developments happening here within the last few hours. >> ayman, you had the experience if i'm not mistaken, of having seen egyptian security forces coming to our office looking for al jazeera journalists. they have cut off the feed from cairo as well. >> that is correct, in fact a short while ago, i spoke to some of my former colleagues there, and they did confirm to me that the police did enter the offices of both the al jazeera arabic services and egypt service and shut those down. they're able to broadcast from their headquarters, they're still covering this story, we understand that within the last few minutes some of the staff that had been detained had been released. they're not allowed to broadcast for the time being. now, the police have not given any explanation why they did this, they have not given any explanation as to why they are going after these specific media organizations, but no doubt, there's certainly something that al jazeera has grown accustomed to here, being under tremendous
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amount of pressure. not only in the recent years under the mubarak administration and under the military role, but certainly in the last couple months, they had enjoyed wider freedoms, wider popularity among supporters, and that is perhaps one reason why the police this evening decided to act by shutting down those services. >> nbc's a man mohyeldin thank you for your time tonight. joining me from cairo, where he is based, shareef, you just heard ayman speak about a classic coup, shutting down, arresting the opposition, shutting down journalistic channels, and yet the images we see on the screen in front of us, look like mass jubilation. is the mood in the streets of egypt tonight one of jubilation? >> i would describe it that way. it depends where you are 234 cairo, at least. in tahrir, near the presidential
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palace, on many streets of the city, there is cheering and jubilation across the city. in tahrir, near the presidential palace, on many streets of the city, there is cheering and jubilation across the city. but there was also at the pro morsi sit-in and rally, which is a different scene, very morose. and a look of defeat on many people there. i think this is certainly, we have to call this a coup, it requires context. it wasn't a coup that was launched by itself, by the military, but was facilitated by popular pressure on the streets. and the significance of the protests took place on june 30th. the largest protests in egypt's history, is something that forced the military's hand to step in. and this is part of the -- i think rejection of authoritarianism that we've seen in egypt. first rejecting hosni mubarak's regime, then the military council that replaced them, and then the muslim brotherhood that was elected.
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but seemed to act in very much the same authoritarian way, and just wanted to be more legitimate, that is to say more freely elected form of the old regime. certainly if you're walking in the streets of cairo, you would think that this was a new revolution, people are waiving flags, blowing horns and cheering everywhere you go. >> the question now is, what is next. a caretaker government was announced. the constitution's been suspends, early parliamentary elections, they have not been announced when it's going to happen, that is the road map forward. in the short term, we know that morsi gave a taped speech to members of the muslim brotherhood urging them not to shed blood. are there fears of violence in the wake of the cataclysmic events of the last 48 hours? >> certainly. since june 30th, at least 39 people have been killed. five people have died tonight. there's certainly fears of violence coming in to the coup. there was a lot of talk from the
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brotherhood by morsi himself in the speech that he delivered last night, saying he was willing to die, to protect what he calls his legitimacy. senior brotherhood members repeatedly used the marxism and shedding of blood to protect their legitimacy. certainly violence is possible. i think it's important to remember what comes next. the question going-forward, we basically have been taken back all the way to square one. >> yes. >> back to the point of february 11th, 2011 when the last president was ousted. the last two and a half years of movement have been erased. what will happen to the muslim brotherhood? is there any possibility of including them in the political process? excluding them, and excluding islam broadly will certainly lead to authoritarianism down the road.
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>> shareef abdel from democracy now, thank you so much. >> thank you chris. joining me now is josh rogan, senior correspondent at "newsweek" and "the daily beast." just within the last half hour or so, we've gotten a statement from the white house, it was the product of a principles meeting called in the situation room. i'd like to read part of it to you and get your take on it. we are deeply concerned by the decision of the egyptian armed forces to remove president morsi and suspend the egyptian constitution. i now call for a return -- >> that was more disapproving in tone that what i had anticipated. >> i agree with you completely. let's remember this statement comes after two days of intense efforts by all parts of the
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administration, to urge the egyptian military not to perform this coup, messages sent both in public and private by leaders such as general martin dempsey, lee on panetta, and president obama themself, urged them to place pressure but not to intervene to oust president morsi in this way. the military calculated if they did this, that the obama administration would have to go along with their action, that seems to have been the right calculation. and the statement reflects the disappointment with the military's decision. the events are what they are, and the efforts of the administration will be focused on pressuring or encouraging the military to act in a pseudo democratic way to restore basic democratic process from here on out. >> there's question at this hour about whether this constitutes a coup, and whether -- if it does constitute a coup, there's american law that says we have to suspend aide. i want to play you this video
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that has been reportedly from al jazeera's live broadcast, when egyptian security forces walked in and told them to shut down. take a listen. [ speaking foreign language ] >> senator leahy out with a statement tonight, our law is clear, u.s. aid is cut off when a democratically elected government is deposed by military coup or decree. it seems the white house will have to deal with that. >> there are always ways around the law. we've seen over the last two years, to place restrictions on u.s. aid to egypt. the administration has resisted all those restrictions and given aid every time. if they want to, they'll find a way to give the aid again. the egyptian military is
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calculating that u.s. interests in maintaining this relationship will trump its interest in punishing them for their actions here tonight. we should also note that the egyptian military got their latest aid, $1.3 billion last month in a secret -- they're not even expecting aid for another year, a lot could happen between now and then. >> ultimately, the big takeaway as i luked at the photo of the president and the principles in the situation room, this is fundamentally an impossible situation for the u.s. in so far as, there is nothing they can do that will satisfy the people of egypt completely understandably, and they have very little actual leverage in terms of controlling any of the events that are playing out there. >> well, you're right in the sense that these are events that will be dictated by egyptians in egypt. very little to no u.s. control. at the same time, the criticism around washington has been that the obama administration has failed to produce a policy that would have maximized the little
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influence that we do have. after the fall of mubarak in 2011, u.s. policy was basically to support morsi, and to try to build the influence with him, and not use the tools of american influence and power to pressure him to do things like democratic reform and respect for the rule of law and human rights that may have avoided this very scenario. influence is limited but you only have influence if you use it, and in order to use it, you need a strategy and a policy to implement it. >> josh rogan, thank you so much. >> thank you. >> okay, when we return, in another country people took to the streets today in support of their president. i'm talking about bolivia, where they are not happy about how their president was treated last night in the hunt for edward snowden. it's a wild story. and it's coming up. want younger looking eyes that say wow? with olay, here's how. new regenerist eye and lash duo. the cream smooths the look of lids... softens the look of lines. the serum instantly thickens the look of lashes. see wow! eyes in just one week with olay.
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the international man hunts for nsa leak edward snowden has played out for weeks like a spy novel.
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last night it played out like a spy novel spoof. the latest details on the strangest international incident in recent memory are next. banks and employers working together have found a new and creative way to rip you off. paychecks that come with automatic fees are all the rage.
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picture for a moment that the vice president of your country comes on television, surrounded by the national congress and says, the president has been kidnapped. he was flying home from halfway across the world and now he's kidnapped. it would not be surprising if
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you took to the streets in anger chanting things like attack on sovereignty. that's what happened to the people of bolivia. when they found out their president was not allowed to return home tonight. the bolivian government claims he was denied airspace rights by france, italy, spain and portugal. the plane turned around and landed in austria. moralez stayed in vienna where the plane was searched with his permission. by morning, he was able to get on board and head home to bolivia. what was the catalyst to these dramatic developments? it is the case of edward snowden. morales was in moscow for a natural gas summit. >> if snowden asks for asylum, will you provide it for him? >> yes, why not. of course, the situation is far
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from ideal, his case is con stan thely discussed on an international level. bolivia -- >> that began a rumor that edward snowden was smuggled on board the bolivian president's plane. he hadn't stowed away in the landing gear or anything like that, today there's a lot of face saving going on. france apologized sort of. the foreign minister's office saying, the permission to fly over french territory was granted. the statement didn't do much to prevent bolivian protesters from lighting a french embassy flag on fire today. later he said his country is making a human rights complaint. all this intrigue is due to the status of one man in exile. when you include the countries that snowden has petitioned for asylum. 23 nations are now caught up in the swirling vortex of edward snowden. a few weeks ago, we were talking
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about the impact of snowden on the united states. today it's clear he's had an impact on the globe. joining me now is noah shackman. this thing last night was bananas. i could not believe it was playing out. >> it was nuts. there's a longstanding tradition about heading the leaders of countries travel where they may. you remember every september, ahmadinejad comes to new york. >> he stays in a hotel and orders room service. >> we don't kidnap him, we don't force him to fly, i don't even know where. yes, this is a very strange thing that just happened. >> okay, last night adrian chen had this great tweet. he stopped and frisked the president of bolivia. argentine president christina fernandez had this whole interaction with morales tonight.
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i called him, how is it going? i'm in a little room in the airport, and i'm not going to let them search my plane, i'm not a thief. here's my question for you. what chain of communication could have possibly happened that ended up with these four nations. air traffic control systems shutting down airspace for this flight? >> i have no idea. there's a longstanding rumor, there's -- that you could smuggle asylum seekers out by diplomatic pouch or you could get into somebody's plane or car, and that you could -- therefore be smuggled out. >> and you have immunity, because it would transfer to the vehicle. >> right. you'll remember there was a chinese dissident that was trying to get into hillary's car or at least that was the rumor, and you would be safe. i think there's some element of that going on high here, but it doesn't quite explain it. it's just freakin' weird. >> is there any conceivable way
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in which this was not -- today in the state department, spokesperson refused to say whether the u.s. played any role, referred all questions to the four nations at issue. they're not going to say one way or another. it seems highly unlikely this was done by these four nations independently. >> then you add into that the 20 nations that have refused asylum. it was making me think, just back on your last segment in egypt, where the u.s. seemed like an innocent by stander or the way the obama administration sometimes is portrayed at home is being rolled by congress. here you have this rather naked display of power, of do not let this guy into your borders, he is ours. >> you're saying that we have heard from country after country after country saying, no way, he's getting any asylum, we even hear vladimir putin withdraw and offer to keep them there when they said, he may stop making life difficult for our friends? >> yeah, it's amazing. it's a muscle flexing we haven't seen from the obama administration before.
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>> in some ways it's a perfect example of the kind of obama approach in this in which he gets up and says i'm not going to scramble fighter jets. the american power is a real thing. we saw exactly what it looks like last night, it's a force field over the western coast of all of europe that you cannot fly your plane through. it makes me think like, they really -- our government wants edward snowden desperately to risk the kind of diplomatic fallout that was precipitated across five nations last flight, bolivia, the four nations that divide airspace plus all of south america which are meeting today. to risk that shows how badly they want edward snowden. >> i would have thought they wanted the other secret programs he has yet to disclose from the nsa. i would have thought that was the important thing. it seems to me the important thing. the calculation the obama
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administration has made is the important thing is to get this guy and get him into court. >> he is as far as we know, he's in the novatel hotel in the transit zone of the airport right now eating cinnabons and applying for asylum. imagine having to pay for your paycheck. it's happening now.
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chances are you have an atm card that also works as a debit card. if you use it at the wrong place, you're going to pay a fee for it. i have one, if i need to take out money, i will walk three extra blocks to get to a branch to avoid paying that extra fee. paying $3 to get out my own money. massive retailers like walmart and home depot are now paying their employees with payroll debit cards instead of paper checks, which seems fine and convenient and efficient, until you learn that those workers have to pay that fee and others no matter where they use those debit cards. think about what that means? it's like going down to human resources on friday to collect your check and they put out their hand and say, you have to give me $5 to get it. if you're making $7 an hour, one or two fees on these debit cards could take away a half hour of your pay just like that.
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here are some of the fees associated with the payroll debit cards. $1.75 withdraw fee after the first withdrawal. so a minimum wage worker taking home 150 to $200 a week can make one withdrawal for free, every other withdraw is 1.75 wherever you do it. balance inquiry 50 centses. 1.50 to move the money to your own bank account. 50 cents per purchase, and we're not done. $25 overdraft fee. $6 to replace the card. if you think you've outsmarted the system by using the card as little as possible, think again. a $7 inactivity fee. more than two dozen retailers
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have this $7 inactivity fee. sometimes it's less, a mere $2.50. talk about the banks getting you coming and going. and this isn't some boutique practice, huge retailers like walmart, walgreens and home depot use it. they give their employees a choice, direct deposit or an old fashioned check. many employees have no choice. in other cases, the employee is enrolled in the payment program automatically, and there's a small mountain of paperwork to get out of it. some employees are afraid to request other options. the reason for the growth of the practice is that it is a sweet deal for participating banks like city bank, bank of america, jpmorgan chase and wells fargo, and for the largest issuer of payroll cards, net spend. banks are making swipe fees the kind they were prohibited from making with regular atm cards.
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and offering savings to the employers. a calculator on visa's website estimates a company of 500 employees can save $21,000 a year by using payroll debit cards instead of checks. this year there are 4.6 million active payroll cards worth $34 billion. it's easy to see how the fees on billions of dollars can easily reach the hundreds of millions up to a billion dollars or more per year. everybody is making money off of it, except the low wage hourly employee who is losing money from the deal. sometimes so much so they are effectively reduced to sub minimum wage according to advocates and state and federal regulators. this heinous practice persists. there are three parties, the employee, the employer and the bank. and two of those three are making money off the deal, but
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not the working stiff. not all hope is lost. there is the case of natalie gunshannon who made $7.44 an hour. she had no choice but to use the payroll card, she quit and sued. just this week, the owner of the mcdonald's franchise changed their policy to offer direct deposit and paper checks. there is eric schneider man, a gift of the show, who sent letters to 20 employers, requesting information about the practice. we're concerned about excessive or insufficiently disclosed fees which may unduly reduce employee's take home pay. the question is whether these fees, particularly when there is no choice, violates state labor law. and the attorney's general office is looking into it with this inquiry. make no mistake, whether it's the norma ray of payroll debit cards or new york's attorney general, neither the big banks nor the big employers should
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feel free to extract money from their low wage employees just to get them their hard earned minimum wage paycheck. it's crazy i even have to say this, but here it goes. you should not have to pay just to get paid. we'll be right back with clip three. - - that could be a question of blood flow. cialis tadalafil for daily use helps you be ready anytime the moment's right. you can be more confident in your ability to be ready. and the same cialis is the only daily ed tablet approved to treat ed and symptoms of bph, like needing to go frequently or urgently. tell your doctor about all your medical conditions and medications, and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sexual activity. do not take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain, as this may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. do not drink alcohol in excess with cialis. side effects may include headache, upset stomach, delayed backache or muscle ache. to avoid long-term injury, seek immediate medical help for an erection lasting more than four hours. if you have any sudden decrease or loss in hearing or vision, or if you have any allergic reactions such as rash,
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if you noticed, republicans walking with a little extra spring in their step today, it's probably because obama care implementation hit a snag yesterday. we have someone who worked on getting the affordable care act passed to discuss the real obstacles. that's coming up. first, i want to share the three awesomest things on the internet today. time to head to the beach, be sure to bring a good book. if you don't have a summer reading list yet, you are in look. earlier this week, the #books with a letter missing was trending on twitter. now thanks to the magic of photo shop, we have the accompanying book jackets.
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there's the princess bree. a displaced don draper travels through california in search of job opportunities of ice and men. yet so many get so lonely. and here's waldo. you can cross that off your list. the second awesomest thing on the internet today, a tribute to the height of '80s fashion. bills couldably played heathcliff huxtable for nearly a decade, he's known for wearing a lot of truly fugley sweaters. an oversized hideous looking sweater with ugly patterns and colors often worn by old men or hipsters with no taste. now fans can vote for their favorite cosby sweater on bill cosby's own website. there are argyles and cardigans.
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all of mr. cosby's sweaters are kind of the same, which is what makes them so great. the third awesomest thing on the internet today, the president is finishing up his trip to africa. mr. obama danced his way down a red carpet. we know he's generally a pretty cool customer, these moves should come as no surprise. how do they measure up to previous leaders, past and present. there's the colin powell, hillary clinton and for those who truly hate the spotlight, may i suggest the ban ki-moon? he clearly drew the short straw here. you will want a good deal of liquid courage before attempting this one. for those who find it difficult to make friends. there's the george w. bush. no one will remember all the tearic mistakes you made as long
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as these smooth moves live on forever on the internet. you can find all links for tonight's three on our website. i'll just press this, and you'll save on both. ding! ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, llllet's get ready to bundlllllle... [ holding final syllable ] oh, yeah, sorry!
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let's get ready to bundle and save. now, that's progressive. oh, i think i broke my spleen! home insurance provided and serviced by third party insurers.
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political fight has erupted over the past 24 hours in washington. and shed light on american politics right now. bad news for uninsured americans, hoping to gain access to health care through the new health reform law.
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is actually great news for republicans, because bad news involving obama care is what republicans hope and dream and wish for every day. the obama administration announced yesterday that the implementation of the so-called employer mandate will be delayed until 2015. businesses with 50 or more workers must provide affordable health insurance. the obama administration says it's a way to give businesses more time to comply with the new rules. republicans say it is proof that obama care is a disaster, nightmare apocalypse that must be appealed immediately, for real this time. >> republicans have treated the news with unbridled delight. this announcement means even the obama administration knows the train wreck will only get worse. and underscores the need to repeal the law and replace it with patient centered performance. with all their pointing, laughing and jeering. they have drawn the beltway's attention to this employer mandate delay, which is
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important. let's not get too carried away leer about how important it is, it imposes a personality that will is far less than providing health coverage. meanwhile, there is a major ongoing problem with the implementation of obama care, one that no one's talking about, that is outrageous and destructive and far reaching in consequence. we saw that problem play out in realtime in pennsylvania's state senate today. lawmakers left for the summer after a committee vote that killed a plan for participating in obama care's medicare extension. it would have extended health care coverage to 850,000 uninsured pennsylvanians. nearly 10 million uninsured pennsylvania ans could have benefited. joining me now, a former member of mitt romney's advisory group.
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what's the matter with white people? and a democrat from new york. this news, i'm of two minds about it, the actual news part of it, which is what this means for people who are sick and want to get health insurance doesn't seem like a huge deal. are we in agreement of that aspect of it. >> it's less of a deal, it includes -- it affects very few people, because 95% of firms with more than 50 people give health care now, and the employees of large firms that don't will be able to, starting in october, to sign up for health care on the exchanges with subsidies from the federal government if they make less than $94,000. >> the employer mandate has never been a super popular idea among health care wonks to begin with, i would say in a bipartisan fashion, this one particularly, because the penalty was going to be less than one would pay to get health insurance, never seemed it was
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going to do that much in either direction. >> i'm with ezra on this, he wrote in 2009 it was the worst idea in health care reform. i'm with him, it artificially increases the cost of labor. high wage people it doesn't matter, they're going to get employer sponsored coverage. it doesn't affect the actual coverage expansion of the law. >> why is it in there? >> it's there because it was not a great idea. it was put in by the senate, the house version of the bill had a better idea, which was to say that employers above 50 had to pay a certain percentage of their payroll to cover this, when scott brown won his election, nothing in the house bill could be substituted for anything in the senate bill. >> this is scott brown's fault? >> it's the republican's fault because they were not looking to improve the bill no good idea -- >> the politics of it do seem like a big deal.
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why did this happen? >> right. there are so many things in the bill, and the congressman is an expert, not me, there are many things in the bill that people would like to fix, and in a normal world, you would pass them. congress goes back and we see how it works or doesn't work, and we fix it, but we can't fix it, because the republicans refuse to do anything, but talk about repeal -- a full repeal. >> here's one that may be an exception it doesn't affect any of the issues with the law. i'd be interested to see -- that would do the thing -- >> without knowing anything about this bill -- without having heard of this bill, i would almost guarantee the republican leadership will not allow it to see the light of day.
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>> eric cantor can't get his own bills out there. >> they don't want to see, joan's entirely right. we pass social security, medicare, there's always cleanup legislation. they will not do any cleanup legislation. they want the bill to be sabotaged. >> part of this are also the optics of this. the most cynical way of viewing the announcement by the white house today, while the president is flying back from his africa trip. that basically, okay, big employers were ticked off about the reporting requirements this would impose on them. they lobbied behind the scenes and it got away. that doesn't quite seem the way this whole role out should go, which is that if you're big enough and powerful enough, and ticked off by having obama care. >> i don't think it's a big influence, it's the medium size. the big employers have 98%. >> that graphic has a -- >> the companies with employees between 50 and 100.
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50 and 200 are the ones that are affected by this, now, 94% of them are giving coverage. >> it's great you knew that off the top of your head. we have a chart showing that data right now, if you got that wrong, that would have been embarrassing. i want to point that out. >> good job. >> if there has been discontent. the other thing that's interesting about this, presumably, this does -- at the margin push more people on to the exchanges which are getting set up in october. i want to talk about the exchanges getting set up in october and the medicaid expansion that is driving me out of my mind. [ male announcer ] it's 7am and steve is already thinking about tomorrow. which is why he's investing in his heart health by eating kellogg's raisin bran®. mom make you eat that? i happen to like raisins. [ male announcer ] invest in your heart health. now that's what i'm talkin' about. [ male announcer ] with kellogg's raisin bran®.
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today in new orleans, the national association of free and charitable clinics held a free clinic in new orleans for folks that do not have health insurance, we got tons of great turnout, thanks to contributions from you, the viewers. once again a lot of people who would not have access to the
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crucial care they need are able to get it, thanks to nafc. thank you all for your support.
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i'm here with joan walsh and jerry nava. we're talking about implementing obama care. and the place i think this is the most perverse is on medicaid expansion. it also seemed the political incentives would get republican governors and republican state legislators to go along with medicaid expansion, partly because of the power of doctors and hospitals in the states. we saw this in florida with rick scott, where the head of -- he used to run the hospital chain. and when the folks from the hospital industry started testifying in the hearings, rick scott saw the light on this, jan brewer, same way in arizona, a shocking number. if you had bet me on this, do you have the map with the different states? here we go. a shocking number of these states are refusing it. how do you understand the politics of this?
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>> i think they really are determined to make this legislation fail. and they don't care. these are not the people they care about, and they don't believe the government should be in the business of doing this, and so it's a totally ideological thing. it's so many governors who are elected in that wave of 2010 as well, it's a test of their tea party principles and people are losing and they're winning. >> january brewer. i mean, to me, she's the fascinating outliar here, because not only did she go for it, she went to war for it. >> right. >> i mean, she like -- she was like atilla the hun. we all broadly understand the budget as a way of throwing the tea party base of ohio state legislators a bone, because he wants to get the medicaid. >> maybe unlike governor jindal and others, they do care about thousands dying in their state. it was only an activist supreme court that made --
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>> not just an activist right wing supreme court. in contrast to all the weeping, liberals have been strangely silent in a myriad of ways in which liberal justices have disappointed them. there was only -- i believe there were only two -- were there only two dissents in them? >> yeah, it was 7-2. >> they took what they can get. >> it was a brilliant decision by roberts, because he gave the democrats what they wanted. obama care is constitutional. while murder and congressional power to regulate under the spending power. potentially a terrible thing in the future. but remember that under the bill, the medicaid expansion which for the first time states that the option of not going into, the federal government will pay 100% of the costs for three years and 90% of the costs thereafter, and states will end
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up saving money, because they'll be less business at emergency rooms and so forth. what these governors are choosing to do, is spend more local taxpayer's money, in order not to provide health care. >> let me quickly read to people. the supreme court decision said the part of the law which had compelled states to join the expansion or forfeit all medicaid dollars was unconstitutional. was overreached by congress, it -- >> it was a completely novel interpretation. right now have you to wonder if there is a requirement in the law that says, if you want money, build a new interstate, you have to have three inches of asphalt, and if congress decides next year it should be five inches, whether we have the power to do this. >> so here's the question, these 700,000 people, 800,000 people in pennsylvania which looks like they're going to be left out. what happens to them? >> 1/3 of them would be eligible for coverage under the exchange. that's a big chunk.
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and then the other -- you have to know in the individual state how many people are left in the gap between the pre-existing medicaid program -- >> just so people understand, the expansion was going to bring qualification for medicaid up to 33%. >> in many states, even if you're at or below the poverty line, you do not qualify for medicaid, unless you have certain other conditions. what will happen now is, if you're above 133%, you can get into the exchange, you can get a subsidy, if you're below that, you may have no -- depending on the state, you may have no way of getting any assistance for health care. >> there's two points i want to make. it's not merely that republicans want to kill four people, that they're opposed to the medicaid expansion. it's also in the case of pennsylvania, when the law is fully implemented. taxpayers ah, side from the federal tax dollars, they'll be spending $700 million a year on medicaid expansion. there is a big taxpayer -- >> they're going to spend more
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than that $700 million on emergency care otherwise. >> that's debatable. the other point i want to make, is the best evidence we have, is that medicaid does not protect people from death, with a study in oregon showed there was no improvement in health outcomes. >> every study we see says that about 45,000 people a year. >> can i say about the oregon study, which has been lit gated a tremendous amount. the big takeaway, people were much happier and much less depressed. >> we're financially secure. >> you know what i say, that's a huge boone. if i can reach out to 800,000 of my fellow citizens in my state and make them less depressed and happier, then you know what, god love it, i want to do that. >> there are so many more efficient ways to do that than the way the medicare -- >> i don't know if that's true. i don't think.
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>> what we're seeing right now, the people, this slice of the -- of our fellow citizens who are the people that were targeted by this law, that's going to benefit the most from this part of the law are going to be locked outside. >> all the republicans who were saying no are not giving us any alternatives to cover them. >> thank you so much. that is all in for this evening. the rachel maddow show starts right now. >> good evening, chris, thank you very much. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. when something is written by a u.s. government official and it is a classified document, sometimes that document is assigned kind of a freshness date. the same way that you buy a yogurt or beef jerky that has a label on it, that says the date at which those foods expire. sometimes secret documents have a date which they expire, or which they become unsecret. like this one, a 20-year freshness date. this was a document sent september 23rd, 2008.

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