tv MSNBC Live MSNBC November 3, 2013 12:00pm-1:01pm PST
a very good afternoon to you. i'm richard lui. today we're the both the end and the beginning of the race. >> this election will say a lot about virginia's future and about the country's future. >> two states, two races, what virginia and new jersey tell us about the path the parties are taking. plus -- >> i think government is inherently ingltep tchlinept. >> obama care is failing and will fail. >> they need to call a time-out. >> the gop hammering the president and his party over health care.
will the calls for roll back make any progress? >> i think we have to go back to the fundamental notion of stop and frisk as a valid police tactic when gun constitutionally. >> and what will this week's election mean for that controversial tactic. we begin on the campaign trail. president obama just wrapping up a speech in virginia in support of mcauliffe. and over in new jersey, chris christie is barn storming the state in these final 48 hours before election day. kelly o'donnell is on the trail with governor christie and he tells her he's less concerned about winning than he is by how much. >> no republican in this state has gotten 50% plus one since george bush. so we're going for 50 percent plus one. anything boabove that is a message. >> on the phone is kelly o'donnell. kelly, very good afternoon to
you. what's the energy like so far on the trail and from the conversations that you've had with governor christie? >> good afternoon. there is excitement when governor christie is going from event to event and we've been watching him now for a couple of days. to y you do get the sense people are excited to see him. everyone wants their photo taken with him. so there is good energy. and in talking with voters, democrats even like him. he's a well-known national figure. they seem excited about that. we've encountered some critics of the governor and they have occasionally shouted out at him as we're along the trail, that kind of thing. but there has been energy. and even for people who say they aren't going to vote for him, there were those who wanted to get a picture taken. so there's been a definite sense of excitement around the bus tour. that's what campaigns do, they try to bring together supporters and get people pumped up and talking about the election. the governor is concerned about
the perception that he is likely to win based on all of the polling, and concerned voters won't actually show up and cast their ballots. so that's part of the reason we're seeing that bus tour which is a week long tour going all over the state. he wants to run up the score as much as he can, in part because of what that says as you heard in my conversation with him about his national stature, as well. >> so you've had overtures of that in the discussion so far. but this is a state race as you've to you get the feeling christie is already looking to the presidential race of 2016? ? absolutely. and he actually talks about it where he'll tell anecdotes about voters who he's med that says, hey, i want to vote for you as president, and he says i have an election tuesday, i need do you thatypically candidates don't t
about that. so he ez there is a lot of speculati speculation, but his first job is to win re-election and to do the job of being new jersey governor. so he enjoys all the attention coming his way and works it, that's sort of christie personality to take on those bigger than life aspects about it and he seems to be enjoying it. we talked to a lot of voters who also expect that he will run and the one thing i've heard that has been a bit critical of him is the sense of that brash style of his, would that play in in other parts the country. people say we get it in new jersey, but not so sure voters elsewhere will support it. >> kelly o'donnell, thank you so much. we have new details on the affordable care act including how the white house may have bungled key decisions in the rollout. this as kcritics pile on the president. >> if you like your plan, you
can keep your plan. if you like your health care plan, you keep your health care plan. if you like your doctor, you keep seeing doctor. if you like your private health insurance plan, you can keep it. if you're one of the more than 250 million americans who have health insurance, you will keep your health insurance. let's put the issue to our brain trust. goldie taylor, dave weigel, and peter sutterman. i'll start with mitt romney seizing on the president's promises this morning on "meet the press". listen to what he said. >> perhaps the most important lesson the president i think failed to learn was you have to tell the american people the truth. and when he told the american people you can keep your plan if you wanted to, period, he said that time and again, he wasn't telling the truth. >> but you on that point -- >> i think that fundamental
dishonesty has really put in peril the whole foundation of his second term. >> goldie, what is your take? >> i think that mitt romney and his wagon pulled in to the united states the last election and he was repuked by the voters not once, but twice. so the very notion that he has any credibility to talk about this affordable care act and the way that he has, i think is ludicrous. i think that the very same people who are the architects of his plan in massachusetts and the same people who were the architects of the affordable care act, so to say that they were different plans is ridiculous. >> dave, you've heard republicans have been very critical here of obama care specifically the individual mandate. and mitt romney did make a comment on that. take a listen. >> you say it should only be done at the state level, but here's what he said in 2007 about the idea of the thmandate. >> i think you'll find when it's
all said and done after all the states that are the laboratories of democracy get their chance to try their own plans, that those who follow the path that we pursued will find it's the best path and we'll end up with a nation that has taken a mandate approach. >> so what is your thought here? what is done on the state level, is it reasonable for think it can be done on the national level? >> i'll say something very rare. i think romney is being consistent. actually is consistent to say he wants a state plan being he wants the federal government to stay out of it. it might irritate democrats to see him again, but he is making a correct point that the president in the selling of this soft pedaled how much life is going to change for some people who bought cheap insurance plans that they didn't have topping about. is it true a lot of these people had they been victim of some catastrophic incident might have gone bankrupt? very true. but the president didn't sell this plan by saying so and mitt romney is proof that any
republican for the time being can point score on that because democrats at any time sell the fact that this is a wealth transfer from very wealthy people to people who didn't have health insurance. maybe it will benefit us in the long run. it will hurt people in the short term and the president didn't lead with that. >> peter, the architect of both romney care and bom caobama car this reaction. >> governor romney is being very disingenuous. he dereceivers credit for making the program work this massachusetts. but what he's not admitting reason it worked is because the federal government paid for it. >> was he being disingenuous and is mitt romney the right messenger going after obama care? >> romney has always had a hard time criticizing obama on health care given the obama plan really is based a lot on what mitt romney did in massachusetts. there are a couple of big
differences. one is that mitt romney's plan in massachusetts had political buy in from both parties and that made about politically legitimate, made it easier to work on it as if went boat went. and one thing few know is that the massachusetts health system, the romney care plan, didn't attempt to do real time subsidy verification within the exchanges. so the most complicated part in massachusetts just didn't exist in the original massachusetts plan. and that's been a big part of what has given healthcare.gov so much trouble. >> because in the obama care exchange, it connects to the irs main frames, it connects also to the dhs main frame. >> and to multiple states. and it connects to multiple states and attempts to do all of this income verification, all this stuff that determines how much subsidies you'll get or not get in real time. that wasn't part of the massachusetts plan when mitt romney signed it into law. >> and also i'll bring this up to dave.
the "washington post" reporting the president decided against the advice of some of his advisers who lobbied for an outsider health reform czar. they write such in-a rarity has emerged as a center factor.rari emerged as a center factor. casting doubt on their capacity to carry out such a complex undertaking. the article goes on to say that really politics got in the way of the progress needed of making between decisions for this exchange build out. >> right. it was always going to be rolled out over a series of rears in order to make the budget the number work. they needed to make it a cost saving measure in the long run. so they needed to save it in a series of elections. and looking to 2012, now 2014, even 2010, the president was not willing to explain what the most painful parts of the law might be and republicans will continue to have a field day.
it's very haphazard, moving from whatever is controversial in a given week, but the problem for democrats that you hear some of them talk about now the president needs to change the subject back to what is good. but it's not a big story if somebody who didn't used to have againtal insurance or some poor family that would have gone bankrupt doesn't any who are. >> "new york times" says the president misspoke about keeping one's insurance plan.who are. >> "new york times" says the president misspoke about keeping one's insurance plan. says all plans will be required to provide ten essential benefits that are now not part of many policies. when will this start possible the headline we're talking about and not the technology? months, years? >> i think the technology will be the headline for some time up we get on the other side of that. and then we can decide our way forward. i do think the white house communications team is guilty of a bit of malfeasance here for this president. p they put him in positions
where he's had to be defensive about a policy that is a great policy, that rather than coming out and continuously with a positive message about kids being on their parents' policy until 26, about being able to be covered when you have pre-existing conditions, when you're like me and you had to buy a junk policy that nearly put you into bankruptcy because you got sick. so those kinds of issues we weren't able to get to because of some missteps that we saw earlier on. and so when will this conversation really be had? when we get out of this technology debacle and people can sane ign up for the health they deserve. >> later we'll have a look at some 2016 frontrunners. will the twitter ipo bring in the big pucks? plus prayer and politics. the question before the supreme court this week. the ruling could impact the high court itself.
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. >> topping the head lea leans l, the man who killed a tsa agent at los angeles international airport has been charged with first degree murder and committing violence. he can face the death penalty. we'll have a live report later this hour. john kerry wrapped up a visit to egypt, the first since morsi was ousted. morsi's removal led the u.s. to suspend hundreds of millions of aide earmarked for egypt.
>> i want to make it clear the united states will continue to provide support that directly benefits the egyptian people in health, scholarships and private sector development. virginia's democratic gubernatorial candidate terry mcauliffe has brought out all the rock stars. hillary clinton was out his behalf two weeks ago. the following weekend, bill clinton. tomorrow joe biden, and today the president hit the trail. >> i hope you guys are fired up on tuesday because we cannot have people staying home when so much is at stake. i hope you're ready to fight for terry because he's ready to fight for you for the next four years. >> republican candidate ken cuccinelli meanwhile has rnc chair and wisconsin governor scott walker with his yesterday. politico this week noted, quote,
the striking contrast in surrogates in the home stretch of the virginia governor's race is another reminder of the gop's larger leadership vacuum and the civil war for the soul of a party still reeling from last year's thrashing. simply put, the party lacks a single unifying figure who appeals to every wing of the party let alone matches the star power of the clinton/obama tandem. joining me now is former congressman tom davis. thanks for being with us. does the gop really have just one or two big name closers? >> we have a the lot of cloers appealing to different wings of the party and i think most of them have come in at one time or another for our candidate. >> but they're mentioning the clinton/tandem coming out to help mcauliffe. >> it's hard to beat a president andest president and secretary of state in terms of bringing star power out. elections aren't won on who you bring out at the end.
they attract kouds. but the bigger problem is the fight in virginia is the same fight we're seeing nationally over what's the heart and soul of the republican party. and in this case they're appealing to the party base and not independents in the closing days trying to drive up turnout. >> "new york times" writes about former president george w. bush, quote, nearly five years after leaving office, the nation's 43rd president lives a life of self imposed exile in texas. more interested in painting than politics, recovering from a heart scare, and privately worried about the rise of the tea party. golfing with federal reserve rv out of the public debate. what do you think, what would be the effect of having bush more involved in national politics? is he the compassionate conservative the party might need right now? >> well, i think we'll need new faces. i think the president is a states man, he isn't want to interfere with the current administration. that's a classy thing do. some people can't seem to let it alone.
we have a stable full of rising stars in the party that will be competing over the next three years. so this will have to sort out. but there is a fight within the party for the base and that is among the tea party groups and the more establishment groups. we're seeing in virginia the fact that they he haave really been able to get together. >> is that why there is no prominent group of leaders because of what the tea party has done? >> they have a group of leaders that are trying to cross appeal. this will have to play out over the next 2 to 3 years, but there is an alabama special election tuesday at the same time between the more establishment wipg and tea party wing and republican primary, we're see primary races against the republican leaders this congress from the tea party. at this point, they're not going away anytime soon and these divisions are not helpful. democrats are the beneficiaries. >> tom davis, appreciate your time today. >> thank you. ken kya was the big winner
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exchange. >> how does it factor into the pricing for facebook? >> it's whether or not the stock trades effect differencely or at all in the first hours after it goes public. it will be priced the night before, somewhere between $17 and $20 a share they say. and then those first trades, if they don't go off effectively as we saw with facebook, that nasdaq had glitches, the trade wasn't made, stock topped out at $43, promptly went to below $20 before it has since rebounded rather smartly. >> so the problem was the trades weren't coming through. >> they weren't getting done. a failure at nasdaq. >> do you think that suppressed the offering price you just mentioned, $17 to $20? that's lower than facebook. >> you have to take a look at the company metrics and what they're trying to raise. facebook was valued at $100 billion when it came public. twitter is being valued at about $11 billion coming public. so it also depends how much stock they're selling. and so it's not just the
glitches are mechanical that drives the price of tce of the . >> so can an every day person buy it? >> larger players get bigger allocation. so big hunlg if you saedge fund there. yeah, look, if your brother cke get and you you an allocation, be an interesting stock to by short term. but the question is can they continue to monetize what they do which is not only the twitter feed, but now openiwning vipne, they're cutting advertising deals and it's an interesting aspect that may help them you were money down the road. it will be a very interesting tell to how the stock market
will absorb what has been actually some pretty exciting but maybe slightly frothy initial public offerings in the tech sector lately. >> one thing they have is a very committed customer base. thank you so much. lil tables. after taking heat, "saturday night live" poked fun at itself last night. kerry washington hosted and had a busy night in the oval office. >> oprah winfrey has arrived for the continuer and she would love to pop in and say hello. >> that's wonderful. >> what a nice surprise. >> isn't it? so don't you position ythink yo get changed? >> why? >> so oprah can come in. >> oh, because of the whole -- >> exactly. >> and ke chenan won't -- >> money. >> in that case, i will leave and in a few minutes oprah will
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bla blank range. the criminal complaint says he went up aphe is indica ehe is az move, went back down, shot hill again, and hit two others before getting down to the terminal. he got to the end of the terminal where he was engaged by police, they released several rounds of gun fire. he was struck several times, at least four times in the body, maybe possibly once in the head. he was taken to a local hospital. police say they would like to question him, but he has been unresponsive medically so far, richard. >> so the question is why and who and you're learning more about the suspect, aren't you. >> reporter: that's correct. we know that ciancia according to some of the sources say that he was estranged from his family, at least from his father, that he had not communicated much with his
father over the last couple of hospitals. but that he did acceptsend a bra text message saying he was going to commit suicide. we know he had not spoken to his family for quite some time. >> miguel almaguer, thank you so much for that report. new yorkers go to the polls tuesday to elect the city's next mayor. the outcome could determine the fate of one of the city's most controversial policies. stop and frisk. joining me is president of global grind.com. thanks for being here tak, mich. what was the reaction decision that came out that appeals court decision to reinstate the policy? >> it was a big disappointment. especially for young and black and latino men in this city feel the courts do not protect the constitutional rights of being stopped and frisked based on their race was a huge disappointment to so many. however, we should be clear what the court put on hold was just the remedy to the judge finding
that the stop and frisk violates fourth and 14th amendment of the u.s. constitution. so there was never an overturning of the unconstitutionality of the stop and frisk, rather just remedies for that. >> what will happen if bide blao wins the race? >> he has said he would be the only candidate that would truly reform stop and frisk to a place it needs to be where it no longer targets black and brown, but used effectively for police so they can do from policing. >> so the bloomberg administration is saying the policy is important, it has reduced the amount of crime. but others are saying at what cost does this come. >> well, look, this year alone, stop and frisk is down to 50%. and one would say bloomberg was right, then the crime rate should go up if stop and fisk
was that effective. but homicides are down 25%. so it's happening because the nypd is doing better policing being they a, they're working with community groups, good nonviolent community groups doing the work on the ground and better policing. stop and frisk has not worked and we don't need the policy to bring down crime. in tha . >> thank you so much for that perspective. soon after a new phrase with the phrase god save the united states and this honorable court, the justices will tackle the role of religion in the public square. they will hear arguments this week in the town of grace, new york versus galloway, the issue whether prayer at government meetings passes constitutional muster. it's argued the town is violating the separation of church and state by opening their council meetings with a
christian prayer. jordan lawrence is with alliance freedom and reverend barry lind is representing galloway oig. good day to both you. reverend, the central focus in the case is the first amendment establishment clause. it says congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. so how to you argue in this case the establishment clause, basically the separation of church and state, that it's being violated in this case? >> unlike god save the honorable court, it's become a platitude, it's used so often it's from the much lost its spiritual significance. when you get down to what's going on in greece, new york, you're finding an overwhelming number, in factual but four of the prayers prayed in the last ten years in greece are christ-focused, jesus-focused,
very overtly christian when which makes people like the would clients of ours feel like they're second class citizens in their own local community. feeling that if they have business for example before the greece town council, it's going to look bad for them were they not to be participants in this religious exercise. a religious exercise that these two women do not happen to agree with. so this is very different than the supreme court. it's different than a state legislature that hires a ch chaplain just to give prayers to the body. these are public prayers given by surrogates for the town council themselves, behind the podium with the seal of the stiff greece in the front of it, clearly indicating that this is government promote. and in this case government promoting sectarian ideas right in the seat of government. and that should not happen. and it doesn't happen frankly in most of the thousands and thousands of city councils, school boards, town councils,
all around the country. but for some reason, the city of greece after being politely approached by our two clients decided belligerently to say, no, we're keeping this going and thus we he said end up in the u states supreme court. >> jordan, the town is citing the 1983 decision in which the case ruled legislative prayers even sectarian ones are constitutional as long as they don't promote one religion other another. how do you argue this case that it stands up to that test? >> well, that's right. the supreme court has upheld this tradition of opening meetings with prayer because it was authored by those who wrote the first amendment. and an objecter should not be able to silence those in the community. >> these types of prayers are
given at councils across the country. what parameters would you like to see the court set on public prayer? >> one of the big differences between congress for example if you go and watch congress, you're sitting up in a balcony, you don't have any direct business before the chaplain, the chaplain's prayer by the way is carefully constrained by rules and regulations just like rules exist in 37 other states to try to make it clear that it is nonsectarian and especially clus sif prayers thinclusiove p the only ones permitted. the case you cited was about a nebraska chaplain who said i'm not doing sectarian prayers anymore and in fact if you look at the record, he had stopped doing these prayers. in the senate of the united states, 5% -- >> reverend, what would you like the supreme court to actually
put on in firms of their decision on this? >> sure. here is the floor we're dealing with. the floor is they say nonsectarian prayers are okay and by nonsectarian, they mean, and i realize a lot of us have trouble with this definition, but it cannen monday o be monot you can't get into other issues that cause people to have differing positions. so what we want is nonsectarian, noncoercive prayer to that anybody can go to the city council meetings and feel like they will be first class citizens whether they participate in any event or not. there is nothing contrary to what jordan just said, nobody is squelching the right of people to pray. they can simply go in the hallway, they can meet in their chambers before the meeting, they can pray all they want to, whatever god or gods they want, but don't make it a part of the official business of the city of
new york where they're supposed to be taking care of the needs of kids and working on parks and cable television. they're not supposed to be introducing relimg i don't know into that community. >> jordan, i want to get your response on this. what would you specifically like for see in the ruling coming from the supreme court? and why is it important do you think to keep public prayer? >> i think it brings people together. and i think it should be noted that barry's organization, i debated the attorney who will be arguing, a couple weeks ago at the university of virginia, and he said he'd like to abolish all prayer. so this thing about novemb nonsectarianism doesn't make a difference. they would like to see all prayer s obliterated. these are not coercive situations. people can answer their cell phones and leave. when the pledge of allegiance comes, they can step out. if somebody calls from home, they can leave. they're not forced to sit there and there is absolutely no
evidence that anyone has been said we'll deny your zoning ordinance variance what you you stood up and walked out occurri during the prayer. so that is just a whipped up false situation here. >> well, it's not whipped up. but if you represented somebody who did want in your example a zoning ordinance, would you not say to them if you really want to get the votes you need, you might not want to fail to participate in the prayer? and i have to say the participation, there are people who are being asked to bow their heads, to join us in prayer. some of these prayers honestly sound like they're mini sermons about theology more than they are prayers, some of the prayers actually attack the people who don't want prayers to occur in the town of greece. so this is highly in-familiflam. you bring people together by being polite and come to a reasonable compromise. make it clear that this is not
treating anyone like a second class citizen. up f unfortunately for reasons that are cropnd beyond me, the town decided not to do that and so we he said end up in tn in the supreme cou. >> anybody can object to anything. there are all sorts of things that can be considered offensive. and the business time when people ask for zoning variances is at a different time, 30 minutes after the end of the ceremonial opening. so they're not forced to stand and pray. >> jordan lawlawrence, and reverend, thank you both. for the first time ever, west point hosted the marriage of two men this weekend. larry and daniel, graduates of military academy, exchanged vows saturday. and he says he hopes his wedding
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we're back with our brain trust on a sunday. goldie taylor, contributor at msnbc and new columnist for grio.com. if we look back to the past, the back and forth on obama care. we look past that particular issue right now. this weekend also seemed filled with speculation about what else? 2016. governor romney had his views on the direction of the gop. this is what was said. take a listen. >> chris, by the way, chris could easily become our nominee and save our party and help get this nation on the right track again. they don't come better than chris christie. >> does ted cruz stand out to you as a potential light of the republican party? >> look, i'm not going to disqualify anybody. but i think i've indicated some of the names i think are most effective in becoming elected. we'll see where it goes. >> dave, i guess ted cruz may not be on that list for the governor there. you were on the campaign trail
with chris christie. did you get sort of a presidential air? did you ever smell that? a sniff there? >> definitely. i think kelly pointed out from when she was on the ground he doesn't shy for it. he'll mention people want him to run for president. >> surprising to you? >> not surprising. everything that makes him appeal to people who don't normally vote for republicans is he's blunt. his stump speech, very generic when it comes to policy, that's what any winning candidate would do. ken cuccinelli are mentioning the problems with obama. christie doesn't mention that. he says we need to work together. he is distancing himself from what some of the republican party is doing. >> ted cruz irreversible? >> not among republican voters. still when i talk to republicans in iowa, they think what he did was absolutely heroic for the party and he's not yet taken a real ding from that. >> governor romney also weighed in on the challenges that
hillary clinton could face should she decide to run. listen to this. >> she's a very well known figure. obviously if she becomes a nominee, we'll be taking a very close look at her record as secretary of state and seeing what she actually accomplished and where america has gone. i think people will have to think that the last four years, last five years have not been a great time for america's interests around the world. she's responsible for part of that. >> peter, what's your sense? is benghazi the unspoken word in that comment he had made there? if so, how vulnerable could the former secretary of state be over her record? >> well, you know, benghazi is certainly something that's lurking at the bottom of a lot of republican rhetoric about hillary clinton. i think the actual bigger issue is a different security issue. that's surveillance. americans right now are really upset and really worried about the increasing surveillance state. that's something that hillary is going to have a hard time running away from in 2016 and that a republican contender, maybe not christie, but a
different republican contender might be able to sort of outmaneuver her on. >> if it does come down to foreign policy in 2016, who would you match up? which on the republican side might be a good nominee to front that? >> someone like rand paul, you know. in particular, because rand paul has been kind of set apart from chris christie. chris christie has done this himself. basically set himself up as the anti-rand paul. rand paul is somebody who has famously made the big speech and has really pushed a lot of the sort of less hawkish, anti-surveillance state, you know, sort of anti-big brother line on the right and has really had a lot of success with that. like i said, hillary is not going to be able to take that line. she's going to end up defending what the administration has done so far. >> peter, you're reading my notes here. i want to play a little bit from senator rand paul on what he said on abc's "this week."
take a listen. >> the difference is i take it as an insult and i will not lie down and say people can call me dishonest, misleading or misrepresenting. i have never intentionally done so. and, like i say, if -- if dueling were legal in kentucky, if they keep it up, it would be a duel challenge. i can't do that because i can't hold office in kentucky. >> talking about those questions of plagiarism here, goldie. how big of deal is this? >> a big deal. presidential candidates have been brought down by charges of plagiarism before. i would like to see all of these names in contested primaries on both sides. i think strong contested primaries bring us strong candidates. you cannot play the super bowl if you don't play the regular season. i want to see a strong democratic primary. i want to see a strong republican primary. may the best man or woman win. >> thank you. don't miss goldie's new column "breaking black." it premieres tomorrow with new features every monday only on
thegrio.com. thank you for watching sunday afternoon. craig will be back next weekend at 2:00 p.m. eastern time. first "disrupt" with karen finney. she's got an exclusive interview with house democratic leader nancy pelosi live in studio. have a great day. [ male announcer ] they say it was during an arm wrestling match that mr. clean realized the way to handle bigger, tougher messes was better leverage. that's why he created his new magic eraser handy grip. it has a handle that firmly attaches to the eraser so you get better leverage and more oomph with less effort. it's the perfect magic eraser for making stuff that's big and tough not so tough, after all. mr. clean's handy grip -- the newest member of the magic eraser family. in all purpose and bath. [ engine revs ] of their type 2 diabetes with non-insulin victoza®. for a while, i took a pill to lower my blood sugar, but it didn't get me to my goal. so i asked my doctor about victoza®. he said victoza® is different than pills.
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wears off. [ female announcer ] stop searching and start repairing. eucerin professional repair moisturizes while actually repairing very dry skin. the end of trial and error has arrived. try a free sample at eucerinus.com. all right, disrupters, here we go. she has made a career out of disrupting the status quo. coming up, my exclusive interview with house leader nancy pelosi. that's next. >> i love disrupters. and i'm a disrupter. that's great. >> you got 30 seconds. >> i don't think so. among those on the republican side are those who are anti-government idealogues. they cannot wag this dog. i believe we should be able to reach a budget by