tv Hardball With Chris Matthews MSNBC October 14, 2015 4:00pm-5:01pm PDT
complete unknown. >> we will see how it all rolls out. great to see both of you. >> thanks to you at home. i'm thomas roberts. see you tomorrow. "hardball" starts right now. hillary and bernie, did both win? let's play "hardball"." could it be that hillary clinton did what she had to do last night, grabbed the democratic mother load? is it true that bernie sanders used his first grade national audience to enlist many new recruits. you heard the conventional wisdom. major headlines are strong declaring hillary clinton the victory. hillary clinton dominates first democratic debate. "time" magazine hillary clinton takes control in first
democratic debate. washington post. democratic bait turns hillary clinton's way after months of difficulties. politico, clinton crushes it. donald trump also ruled that clinton came out on top. here he was with katy tur today. >> i think she did her job. i think she got through the debate. i thought she won the debate. >> the data from social media tells a different story. it shows that bernie sanders attracted far more interest during the debate. according to google sanders was most searched candidate followed by clinton then webb, o'malley and chaffe glmpt is tod. today it is my view that banks are much bigger than they were
when we bailed them out. we have to breakic them up. >> facebook revealed sanders was most discussed and on twitter bernie sanders attracted more new followers gaining more than three times as many as hillary clinton. joining me now is perry bacon, wall street journal white house correspondent. i want to start with perry. my friend, i have a slightly different view of what happened last night. what i heard last night was bernie sanders blowing the trumpet loud on the rich, billionaires saying this country is totally unequal. the wealthy at the top are screwing the rest of us and something has to be done about it. very clear message. hillary was very smart, very prepared. the message you heard was from bernie. i thought he had a trumpet to play. i think he will have a lot more numbers in the next polling. i don't care who gets declared the winner i think he won
because he built up his troops and he will have a lot more numbers coming up in the polling. >> i think both did well. one reason is for hillary you have two hours where you did not talk about -- we talked about gun control more than e-mails. i think it is a great night for her and lots of people heard her talk about her policy as opposed to the controversy. bernie saved her from the e-mails in a lot of ways. big night for him because we all followed him a long time. he had 12 million people last night hear his message for the first time. he is a new person. he did well last night. i think he reinforced the fact that he is a big challenge for clinton. i think it is a bad night for joe biden and saw sanders and clinton are very strong candidates. >> on message i thought bernie won because he is blowing the trumpet and hillary is responding. she is keeping her distance and not running hard left. he is clearly a clarion call.
i think he never had a national audience before last night y. have watched this before. we think we know it all. most people weren't paying attention to last night and that is why social media went wild. everybody is saying hillary won and he lost. i don't buy that. your thoughts. >> i think if hillary clinton didn't come out -- if the head lines didn't say she won after this debate she would have completely failed. she debated more times than anybody on that stage so that was her challenge and she clearly met that. when you look at who's searching online and who's paying moreentimore attention bernie sanders is not the known quantity. he will pique secure yacuriosit >> like some rat.
that is well said. let me go to steve on that. i remember everybody else likes to forget this. everybody said al gore gave the goldilocks debate. it was perfect. everybody said he won. guess who won. george w. won. so the idea that this -- i don't buy the expressions of who won or who lost. i thought bernie did great. d >> the winner of the debate is anybody who goes in and comes out having significantly improved their position. i think hillary clinton was a huge winner last night because she wasn't talking about e-mails all the time. she was talking about issues that she wanted to talk about. she opened up bernie sanders like a pinata on gun control. on the other hand i think bernie went in and reinforced his base.
a lot of people donated. $1.3 million was raised last night. if you make your 25% base harder that's not necessarily a win. >> i disagree with you. 11 million people watching him for the first time not in his base. my bet is that a lot of people will recruit with this guy in the next couple of weeks. >> the polls will tell us who improved their position. hillary clinton had a good night. people are no longer saying can she win a general election. i think the calculus for joe biden is different. i think he has a reasonable opportunity here but the door is closing and he will have to put his hand or foot in it pretty soon or it is going to close all the way. >> what do you say if you are jeb bu joe biden and you decide you want to get in? what does she not have that you have? >> i think the argument for joe biden is the same as last week which is if you are concerned
about whether or not hillary clinton can win a general election and you want to make sure we protect the gains of the obama straition. conservative congress might threaten or take away then maybe joe biden is somebody you ought to look at. it's not anything personal about votes. it's something about the country and democratic party and winning next november. there are still people who are worried about whether or not hillary clinton can win and the faucet has maybe turned off. sh she is out in colorado and answering questions about the e-mails. >> he went over there and jumped over the net and shook hands and said we are not going to talk about it. they are not the ones talking about it. a focus group of florida democrats conducted by fox news showed sanders was the big winner but participants did have
reservations about his ability next november. >> how many walked in supporting hillary clinton? how many of you are still supporting hillary clinton? who won the debate? bernie sanders. ceph . >> for the people. >> strong. straightforward. >> confident. >> insider and outsider. >> sincere. >> powerful. >> smart. >> socialist. he actually answered the question about being a socialist. he is proud of being a socialist. do you think this guy can win? do you? >> i don't think he can. >> let's talk about the judgments. the review last night where i was was hillary won big. i thought bernie roused that crowd up like nobody.
every applaud was how the rich have all the money dominating and corrupting american politics. they ought to help us with social security benefit increases. it was basically a class argument against people absolutely supreme wealth. i heard residents with real people. hillary is maybe the smarter person. let me dpoe back to this. why do you think social media for bernie and not for hillary? >> social media -- bernie has been better on social media throughout the year. he has a younger and people are very passionate about bernie. people are for hillary. i think that is broadly true. i think two things are true at the same time. i think it is the case that bernie was strong last night but i think the people in the focus group are right there is a big doubt about can a socialist be elected? right now if you say you like
sanders it is a bit of a protest vote. i don't know if you thought about can a person win a general election who is a socialist because i think most democrats and those who like sanders assume clinton or biden will win the primary. >> let me get reality check. kaca it seems to me people would have said we don't like class politics. we are not the british labor party. no one is saying that right now. that is silenced. the dog that is not barking right now i believe is the realization of the american people of incredible inequality in wealth. that's why when he talks and labor hall yelling, pounding the drum, if you will. it seems to work with people. they go he's right even if they are not going to vote for him. >> that's true because we have
been through a massive recession. the economy is doing better in some ways but not in others including wages and people are not fully employed in the way they should be or want to be and people are still struggling. bernie sanders is clearly tapping into that sentiment. i think one of the rationales for his candidacy is that authentic character about him, he understands these types of problems in a way that is less socialist than bernie sanders but more mainstream but he could make that argument to the country. and also contrast himself with hillary clinton and her background background compared with his background. >> steve i think you are right. the next couple of weeks we will look at the polls.
don't listen to anybody who says they won the debate. the person who wins is the person who goes up most in the polling. that is how you score these things. al gore was hands down declared by the establishment saying he won that big third debate. people liked george bush a lot more than al gore. thank you. donald trump is on the attack but this time grazing hillary clinton and hitting hard at bernie sanders because maybe he saw what i saw last night. what did trump see from bernie that put the vermont senator in donald trump's sights? the trump and ben carson riding high. republican voters rejecting. that is true on the capitol hil the party can't seem to find itself a leader. last night hillary clinton and ben carson each had a strong night. will the race tighten? will biden think twice about
getting in? some candidates didn't expect to help them selselves last night. we know who you are. this is "hardball," place for politics. more "sit" per roll. bounty is two times more absorbent. so one roll of bounty can last longer than those bargain brands. so you get more "life" per roll. bounty. the long-lasting quicker picker upper.
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>> welcome back to "hardball." it's like enough already. bernie sanders is riding high after last night's debate. according to donald trump bernie blew it big time. trump praised hillary clinton's performance. he says bernie gave it away. >> bernie made a mistake. he got a great couple of seconds, but he took the situation that is a very serious situation where hillary is being investigated by the fbi and just gave it away. he can never bring it up again. he's losing big. so i think he made a mistake. i think she did her job. i think she got through the debate. i thought bernie was off. he was not doing so well y. think the other people shouldn't have been up there. i thought a couple were ridiculous. they left her alone and didn't hit her and taking away the e-mails was a good thing to take away which for him i think is a
very big mistake. >> from a trump point of view it is. he characterized sanders as clueless on the issue of trade. >> he thinks a lot of trade deals are bad. i will make great deals where he doesn't know where to begin. i watched him talking about trade and he would have no idea. he is not a negotiator. that's not what he does. he can complain. i change. >> that sounds smart. trump campaign ripped into bernie on social media describing sanders as unfit for commander in chief. >> the world is a dangerous place. we need a tough, strong leader. and it's not this guy. >> bernie can't defend his own micropho microphone. let me ask you about having become an expert on mr. trump.
>> trump aulgist. >> does he go after the skinny kid at the beach or take on the challenge? seems like he goes after the losers. >> we saw him hit jeb really hard and jeb was not the skinny kid on the beach. he has been the presumpative nominee. i think maybe there is some psychological stuff the fact that sanders gets big crowds. they also sound similar on some things, trade for one. campaign finance. so i don't -- >> maybe he didn't like the billionaire thing. bernie's biggest lines last night it's all billion airs and there is trump, a billionaire. >> trump says the same thing on the trails that he wants to make it harder for or wants hedge
funders to pay more taxes. >> he doesn't hate them. bernie makes them the villain. >> he does definitely. i think sanders is an interesting new enemy for donald trump. i don't think anybody is off limits. ben carson so far has been offlimits. ted cruz he hasn't hit. >> cruz is right behind him. >> no instance where he just backed off. >> does trump behave differently? he said he is going to change his tone and be less obnoxious. he is going to play down what he calls political incorrectness. >> he said earlier today that -- i said would you change about the way youco campaigned.
he said he is going to watch his words ahead. >> so what did you learn for the next 118 days? >> i think i could be perhaps a little bit -- i can watch my words and maybe be a little more politically correct. one of the reasons i am doing well is because being politically correct takes a lot of time. it takes a lot of effort. i can be more politically correct than anybody that you have ever interviewed but it takes a lot of time to do it and you are going around in different circles and you are never getting there. we don't have time for it anymore. >> it takes a lot of time not to make fun of your female opponent's face. it takes time not to do that. it is easy not to be a cad. it takes time not to say the president is an illegal immigrant and that mexicans are rapists. it is easier not to do that. it is easier to be reasonable. >> this is donald trump. when donald trump says maybe he would change things hat is surprising but it is still donald trump. he is still not talking about policy specific. he may sound nicer in the
interview but not getting into the issues. i think the campaign thinks they have to change tactics. >> he is just around there. >> in order to get the nomination once the field starts to narrow he has to widen his base of support. to do that lot of people you speak with say they don't like him attacking other people. if he can get the carson votes he will have to stop attacking people. >> trump seems eager for a brawl with dr. carson who is running closer than any other candidate. here is more from the interview. >> i will negotiate deals that nobody can negotiate like i do. nobody. i don't know everybody i'm running against, nobody is able to do the things i can do. ben -- that's not his thing but he certainly seems to be resonating and the two of us together i guess at 50% or something like that and everyone is amazed because we haven't been politicians. i have been doing this for three
months and he has been doing it for about the same time which is not saying much for politicians. he has been nice to me and i have been nice to him. i don't know if that will continue. in a way i hope not sdplmpt with he can't attack carson. >> do you ever laugh at that ego when it starts going like that? he is like a vampire movie. in a thousand years he talks like a character in a novel. >> i can't answer thaet. you know i can't answer that. >> you have to wonder about -- >> i think donald trump is an entertaining person. i think he is tapped into something. i think it does actually extend past the republican base. i think there are a lot of democrats and independent whose are just as sick of politicians. >> are we all dying for a hillary versus donald night?
three big national debates? >> it would be interesting. at the very least it would be entertaining. you asked trump if he is ready with impressions. >> got any impressions under your belt? >> they are going to give me something. >> hillary did you. will you do her? >> i would certainly do her. >> can i see it? >> you are not going to see it now. we have to save it for lorn. >> how about jeb ? >> i'm amazed how he has not resonated. >> do you have an impression? >> i was going to fall asleep on the chair but i'm not going tado that. >> it's weird when you ask him about impressions his face crumpled into a robert de niro. >> i think in another life he wanted to be a standup comedian. i think he would have been
pretty good. he does get the crowd going. he makes them laugh. whether or not that is enough to be president of the united states i'm not sure. >> enough to get him to show up. they will show up for the rally. they love watching the interviews and the crazy stuff he says. will they show up in iowa? >> i'm not sure. they are starting to have a ground game out there. they are trying to rally people to go to caucuses, telling them how to do it. holding these apprentice style competitions to find caucus leaders. they are trying to inject excitement into the otherwise complicated process. will they be able to get over the hump i'm not sure. that is the big question. are these people who are just entertaining? the ones in the polls, are they just people who know his name? you're making faces. you're making faces. >> i was thinking you will never have a better assignment for donald trump.
>> i'm going to retire after this sdplmpt with a better chance to win the nomination. i'm not sure he beats the field. >> a lot of democrats say of all republicans they like him the best because they think he is the most reasonable and they don't believe that for the others. so donald trump may be trying to win primary voters but who is the donald trump that we see if he does get the nomination? do we see a more moderate version, somebody who doesn't care about gay marriage? >> somebody very smart and cagey. thank you. there must be something to cover this guy regularly. up next the success of donald trump on the campaign trail can be fuelling republican crisis on capitol hill. nobody wants to be the leader. that is a problem. can a team run without a captain or quarterback or pitcher? this is "hardball." rprise!!!!!
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welcome back to "hardball." donald trump continues to dominate a crowded field of republicans. according to new numbers trump leads in nevada 38%. in south carolina it's roughly the same trump at 36% dr. carson at 18%. the same anti-establishment fervor is stirring up chaos in the congress where the republican caucus is coming apart like dpop primary voters republicans appear in no mood to crown another insider as their leader. a republican from wisconsin who up until last week was a member of the house caucus. keeping kevin mccarthy from going for it. resigned from the freedom caucus
last week. with us tonight j.c. watts, a rand paul supporter. let me ask you about the state of play on the hill. is it possible to select a speaker in the republican caucus? is it possible? >> sure. it's absolutely possible. i think the person that emerges on specific policy reforms and gets us moving in that same direction we have similar political idologies. we should be in a hurry to get it right. we are going to find somebody who will come forward. >> what about the mathematics that more than half the caucus is only there for five years all together each of them and they want to have a lot of power. they want to offer amendments on the floor. how can you have the leadership
agree to a system which would just institutionalize chaos? >> it wouldn't necessarily institutionalize chaos. members want a clear system of rules applied equally to everybody and know what the rules are inforce the rules completely so that if you have a policy solution if you do the work under those rules you get a shot at having a vote on the floor. if it passes and you convince colleagues you have to go back and figure out a new policy solution. >> what is this talk about you being a candidate for speaker? is that credible? >> that has about as much wisdom as going beyond the next two or three weeks to find the speaker. i agree with the congressman that they need to do it right. i would say do it quickly because i think the longer that it goes i think the more it mays
into the narrative that we're dysfunctional. i think all majorities have their dysfunctions just a matter of degree. nevertheless i do think it would be wise and there is a lot of wisdom in getting it right and doing it quite quickly. they need a permanent leader i don't care if it is abraham lincoln you don't need a nonmember of congress. >> let me get back. the presidential field when you keep watching it as we do you notice the people getting votes in the primaries according to polling are people with no government experience, no washington experience, never taken the oath to serve their country, district or the state. that's trump, dr. carson. they are killing the people who have any kind of resume. isn't it the same thing going on with your party that if you have stature on capitol hill you are considered an insider and by
definition a villain? isn't that the problem? there are figures of some stature in congress. that's not a good thing to be these days apparently. >> well, i think there is some to that. i think that members have seen a system of order that has come apart in the congress. and when that order has come apart and not reliable a new order has emerged. you are seeing it in the democrat party. you have the freedom caucaucus,u have the same thing going on with the democrat party, progressive caucus.
>>. >> let me add to that. we are over $18 trillion in debt. the deficit is going down and deficits as far as the eye can see. we are talking about planned parenthood and you are a passionate guy but a decent guy. you consider that republicans we have been in charge for most of the last ten years when a lot of these things have happened. so we are losing our brand. i would hope that all republicans would get back to the basics, the blocking and tackling and making sure that we can tackle these major issues, even illegal immigration. we can't say everything that comes forward that it is amnesty or neither not concerned about the border. there is a lot of problems. that's why i say the sooner republicans can get a speaker the better off the country is going to be. >> don't pass an immigration bill unless you believe in it and want it to be enforced. no more bs on immigration.
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multiple drugs in his system. authorities said that in a 911 call they were told he had been using cocaine. we will continue to follow the developing story. now back to "hardball." welcome back. what happened last night in vegas it was a wild night, clinton versus sanders didn't disappoint. hillary clinton had this clear message to cut through the noise, a vote for her is a vote for history. >> we will work together and yes finally fathers will be able to say to daughters you can grow up to be president. [ applause ] . >> secretary clinton how would you not be a third term president obama? >> i think that is pretty obvious. i think being the first woman president would be quite a change from the presidents we had until this point including
president obama. >> bernie's retort. >> i believe that the power of corporate america, the power of wall street, the power of the drug companies, the power of the corporate media is so great to do the things that the middle class and working class desperately need is through a political revolution when millions of people begin to come together and stand up and say our government is going to work for all of us, not just a handful of billionaires. >> the corporate media. we have to talk about that. the round table tonight chief political correspondent for fox. white house correspondent with american urban radio networks and the host of the eagenda. i better tart with april on this for political purposes. this idea -- i don't think
barack obama said african-american first ever. this is a real bugle call to women and men who are supportive of women that this can break history and break that glass ceiling. let's do it for this reason. if there is a doubt in your mind go with that. >> when it comes to barack obama race and politics will follow this president because he is the first african-american president of the united states of america. if hillary clinton were the president of this country she would be the first female president. i am going to go to nancy pelosi, something she says. it's not the glass ceiling but the marble ceiling. you can break glass. it's hard to chip away at the marble. this is a white male dominated town. for her to possibly accomplish that feat it would be a major first. >> do you think it is good to be so declarative about it?
i don't think obama was. >> obama could not be because he had to strategically navigate the waters to become president of the united states. they understood if they talked about race his chances of being president of the united states would be nil because the issue of race polarizing. being a woman is different. both groups have had struggles but she has more leeway for women who fought for equal pay. >> let me ask you about that question. hillary wants it to be an issue. is it mart to put it out front like she did with a smile? very breezy. but i don't think she did that when she was with mark pen doing the same thing. >> like eight years ago she was scared of showing her fem ninity. she is a history-making candidate. she will be the first woman
president of the united states if she wins. why not say to the young women i will break this glass ceiling for you. it is one of her strengths. >> what was interesting last night always like the dog that doesn't bark. certainly we had a lot of it last night. the fact of age. if the republicans pick a young candidate like marco rubio i don't think there is a big age difference between her and him. i think hillary looked in fabulous shape, wide awake, alert, clear eyed totally ready for any kind of appearance test. another thing that disappeared this worry about age. >> bernie sanders is older than hillary clinton is. >> maybe that helps. >> 74. and joe biden sitting on the sidelines also in his 70s. >> i'm talking about up against somebody like marco rubio. >> there will be a generational
divide. i think it is about the issues and the candidate with the forward looking vision. marco rubio says hillary clinton is looking backward and he is looking forward. i think as long as a candidate looks like they are capable on the campaign trail hillary clinton obviously very capable right now on the trail and in the debates bernie sanders if you see him at debates he has a lot of energy. i think that is what matters a lot more. remember the great ronald reagan line that he wouldn't hold opponents youth and inexperience against them. >> you know what i think last night? i think preparation mattered a lot. we talk about people being spontaneous too much. hillary clinton was the most prepped candidate i have seen long time. they did the job. she was ready to jump at it. that is prep. the other big moment last night hillary clinton calling out
sanders' record on gun control. boy, did she go at this aggressively. you pick up on this. >> is bernie sanders tough enough on guns? >> no. not at all. i think that we have to look at the fact that we lose 90 people a day from gun violence. this has gone on too long and it's time that the entire country stood up against the nra. the majority of our country -- [ applause ] supports background checks and the majority of gun owners do. he was going to give immunity to the only industry in america. everybody else has to be accountable but not the gun manufacturers. we need to stand up and say enough of that. we are not going to let it continue. >> that was something. >> it really was. she sent out this clarion call. there has been a clarion call already from this president after almost every shooting that we have seen, mass shootings and other shootings. for her to call out bernie
sanders but bernie sanders had a moment where he said the nra has given him a d minus so bernie sanders may fight against them but hillary clinton owned that moment to make it seem like bernie sanders is not doing enough with gun violence. that is one of the big issues in this nation that people are trying to push forward trying to reform the gun control issue, gun control reform. the nra is listening to every word each candidate is saying. >> i give hillary clinton every bit of credit for her toughness in that. it's not like giving hockey speeches about china or syria. when you take on the nra that's for real. she will deal with that in kentucky and ohio. western states will not be easy. the round table is staying with us. what not to do in a presidential debate. coming up the low lights. the blooper reel from last night's debate. this is "hardball," the place for politics.
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we're back with tonight's roundtable, the "hard ball" roundtable. yesterday's showdown offered a number of lesson onz what not to do in a debate. starting with this answer from lincoln chafy trying to explain a past road he took by essentially saying he was just too green. >> governor chafy, you've asecretary clinton for being too close to wall street banked. you voted for the very bill that made banks bigger. >> i just arrived. my dad died in office. i was pinlted to the office. >> are you saying you didn't know what you voted for?
>> i just arrived in senate. i think we get some takeovers. that was my very first vote. it was 92-5. >> with all due respect, you voted for something you didn't know anything about. >> my dad died. i was pint eappointed by the go, it was the first vote. >> was anderson cooper too rough? that is first time i ever heard somebody plead for mercy from a moderator. >> it wasn't that rough. it's just why did you vote that way? >> lincoln chafy said he was a granite block. i think he'd be better in the polls if he was a granite block and not giving such terrible answers. >> jim webb offered a gd lesson not what to do in a debate. he complained about how little time he's getting. april, you get in here. >> we go back and forth here for ten minutes here. >> secretary clinton, can you
respond. >> well, first of all. >> can i get in the discussion? >> yes, you'll be coming in next. she was directly quoted. >> okay, i've been standing over here for ten minutes. >> madam secretary. >> you're over your time. >> well, you let a lot of people go over their time. with respect to the financial sector, i mean i know the time has run out. but in speaking of changing positions and the position in how this debate occurred is frustrating. unless somebody mentions my name, i can't get into the discussion. >> you're wasting time. if you would, finish your answer. >> i'm trying to set a mark here so we can get into more later on. this hasn't been equal time. >> turns out jim webb got six more minutes than lincoln chafy. does that work to whine? >> no, it doesn't. you're presidential material. want to be. and you can't go up there saying oh, i lost any turn. you have to find a way to get in here like here on "hard ball," you have to find a way to get your point in without looking
like oh, i'm a loser and i wnt get in and make a big stink. he was having a temper tantrum. this is not a monopoly game where you lose your turn or pass go and go to jail or whatever. this is real prime time tv. this is real stuff. people want to hear the issues. i talk to bishop jake this is weekend, he said we need to hear the issues, not the crazy stuff. >> finally, we want to talk about running for president. it's not a great idea to tell americans that you look to denmark and countries such as that for how we should behave. just what bernie sand derz and trying explain what he means by democratic socialists. >> when you look around the world, you see every other major country providing health care to all people as a right except the united states. those are some of the principles that i believe in and i think we should look to countries like denmark, like sweden and norway and learn from what they have accomplished for their working people. >> he put denmark on the map
last night. my god, it never got so much attention. your thoughts? >> i mean, americans, we don't want to be scandinavians. i think bernie sanders has had a good explanation of what democratic socialism is. but i think this was a bit of a flub. we don't want to be scandinavians. we barely want to go to ikea. >> let's not talk nordic ideal anymore. thank you very much, roundtable. "hard ball" is back after this. that's not the ground leo put that down when your day goes on and on, you need 48 hour odor protection that goes on clear for no white marks. secret outlast clear gel. alright team, we've got an f150, needs a systems check and tires. doc, i need you on point for this one. already got the latest updates direct from ford engineering. 'cause ford dealers get that intel first. treads, what do you got? lookin' a little bald, sir. with all due respect. got the perfect fit- ready to roll.
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that's "hard ball" for tonight. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. >> tonight on "all in." >> let me say something that may not be great politics. >> democrats seize the spotlight with a record audience. >> the american people are sick and tired of hearing about your damn e-mails. >> bernie and hillary shine. >> i can't think of anything more of an outsider than electing the first woman president. >> and lincoln chafy was also on stage. >> i think you're being a little rough. >> tonight why both front runs have a claim to victory. and undecided voter and democratic senator sharon brown on how he saw the debate. and what a difference a political party makes. >> i never attacked him on his look. believe me, there's plenty of subject matter right there. >> on the