tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC October 20, 2015 8:00pm-9:01pm PDT
who come to us every single year for health care. what congress is doing to really end access for women in this country to go to the best, most affordable provider that they choose finish your answers, you can always come here. >> i appreciate the time, yes. ask the question and answer it. yep. >> cecile richards and wendy davis, thank you both for joining us tonight. >> thanks, law res. >> chris hayes is up next. >> when no one attacked us again. >> now as jeb takes on trump,
his brother goes after another 2016 insurgent. >> president george w. bush apparently not a big fan of senator ted cruz. he was overheard saying i just don't like the guy. >> then the ongoing will he, won't he saga, joe bide takes a swipe at something the front-runner said in the first debate. >> i still have a lot of republican friends. i don't think my chief enemy is the republican party. >> and jim webb we hardly knew you. >> i'm stepping aside from the democratic primary process. >> "all in" starts right now. >> where is my time? all right. there's a lot to get to tonight. we are monitoring capitol hill where the house republican caucus wrapped up a meeting who had he want to replace john boehner as house speaker. joining us is producer alex moen. a meeting between ryan and the
house freedom caucus, those 40 lawmakers who have essentially leveraged their 40 votes to hold veto over house leadership, what do we know about what happened in that meeting? >> so the congressman wrapped up speaking to the entire republican party in the house of representatives where he laid out what he said that he believed needs to happen if they do in fact want him to run as speaker. he laid out five different scenarios that he said needs to be met. and if they can meet those, if they can actually unify as a conference, then the three major caucuses within the house gop can unify together and get behind him, he will in fact be as speaker. he'll be all in. he asks the members to go and talk with each other and see if he in fact, can be that unifying figure.
jason chaffee who is currently running for speaker has said he is dropping out of the race. supports paul ryan and really wants him to get in. so ryan is about to address reporters shortly and talk a little bit about what he told those -- that closed gop conference meeting. > all right, alex. i want tonight read a little bit of the statement that brendon buck who is ryan's spokesperson put out. gives a little sense where ryan is. to get the context, in the wake of boehner's announced retirement, everyone thought kevin mccarthy, the whip would ascend to become speaker. he said how essentially the benghazi committee resulted in hillary clinton's poll numbers coming down and he also faced a kind of insurgent attack from the house freedom caucus, those very hard right lawmakers incredibly adept at leveraging those votes to the veto and hold sway over leadership. kevin mccarthy announced last week he would not speak the speakership before the house recess.
that the left everyone looking to ryan. paul ryan is the only saviour for republican party, seemingly incapable of governing itself despite having the largest majority notice house since the 1920s. despite 247 votes in the house, the house republican caucus has seemingly been unable to do the basic work of government without essentially breaking party line and getting democratic votes. and into this vacuum of power walked, we thought, possibly, maybe, paul ryan. paul ryan you see there in that little bit of vo avoiding questions from reporters earlier today. paul ryan has said and brendon buck has been saying all along, paul ryan does not want this job. he wants absolutely nothing to do with this job. many suspect because a, the house caucus is totally ungovernable and b, because paul ryan quite evidently the former vp nominee of the republican party has aspirations for much higher office.
many people believe probably rightly house speakership would be the terminus of any political career and therefore, kill those aspirations for higher office. joining us on capitol hill is luke russert. luke, brendon buck who's been a very busy man, a spokesperson for paul ryan. i mean, he's basically spent two weeks telling everyone, not happening, not going to happen. no, no, no. then today we get a brendon buck statement saying okay, paul ryan met with the house republican caucus. he's not a no. he's got a list of demands. what happened? >> it kind of goes along what we've been reporting over the last few days, which was that we knew that paul ryan was open to taking the job. but the words that his aide said to us and those close to him said to us was, he will take the job if the conference allows him to take the job. when you read into that, what does it mean? it means he wants a clear mandate. i've heard at least 2359 votes on the house, representatives for the speaker's job because if
he takes it, he doesn't want to tread water like john boehner. he wants to enact a long-term vision for how he seize the republican party should go into the future. this is a job he's tried to avoid his entire time. the new majority since 2011, there's been rumors about pushing ryan. he's not wanted to do it. i think what happened over the course of the week was the pressure exerted 0 him was so great, he couldn't say no because of a sense of a few things. one, duty, catholic guilt that if he were not to do it, then so many people in his family that family being the house gop conference would suffer, and one thing that i heard today which i think makes a lot of sense, there was a worry that he would be tagged permanently as somebody who ran away from the most difficult challenges. what would that mean for the future of his political career, especially if he had to work with the speaker who would not nearly be as powerful as he would be as ways and means chairman. he would be defacto speaker in the background.
that all played together and it seems that barring, the house gop freedom caucus going for his head, he'll more likely than not end up with this job unofficially by the end of the week. house gop freedom caucus, if we can predict their reaction, we should probably lay the lotto every night. >> thank you very much. i remember speaking with a few folks a few weeks ago in our editorial meeting saying, paul ryan will end up as the speaker of the house. they are not going to take no for an answer. here we are two weeks later, and the a plants come to be aligning as we speak. we'll keep monitoring the situation. in 2016 politics, donald trump smells blood in the water and not letting up in his attacks on the legacy you have george w. bush. in fact, he's going further no longer arguing suffering the nation's worst terrorist attack means bush did not keep safe but now saying the bush administration ignored the warnings before 9/11. >> they knew an attack was coming.
george tenant knew in the advance there would be an attack and he said so to the president. and he said so to everybody else that would listen. that came out. >> trump also went on to blame bush's war in iraq for the current middle east chaos, totally hair say the within a party that prefers to put that blame on president obama. >> we went and attacked iraq. they had no weapons of mass destruction and as we found out in spades. so they had no -- we destabilized the entire middle east. the middle east is a mess right now because of iraq because we've totally destabilized and iran now is taking over the middle east, taking over iraq and the oil. the other one that gets some of the oil is isis. we fueled and created isis out of this. >> in an op-ed, trump's rival and jeb bush tried to turn the tables, slamming trump for his lack of foreign policy knowledge and "that trump echoes the attacks of michael moore and the fringe left against my brother as yet another example of his dangerous views on national
security issues." last night bush advanced the notion that his brother's presidency or at least the part that counts began on september 12th, 2001. >> his view of history is just wrong. the simple fact is that when we were attacked my brother created an environment where for 20,600 days we were safe. no one attacked us again. and just a tip of the hat to that and moving on to what the threats are today is what we ought to be focused on. >> he may have undercut his own argument with this next line how trump sees vladimir putin's moves in the middle east. >> you can't expect the soviet union whose only objective is to prop up its client state assad to take out isis. that's not their intention. and this lack of understanding of how the world works is what the problem is. >> you did hear that, right? jeb bush referred to the soviet union while blasting donald trump's understanding of world affairs. soviet union which hasn't
existed for two decades although it is true they have no intention of taking out isis. with george bush back in the news, it was only a matter of time before he made news of his own. now he's done that with contention comments about one of his little brother's opponents. it's not the one you might expect according to the report. at a fund-raiser on sunday night, the former president went after ted cruz telling the room "i just don't like the guy." one donor told politico, he found it opportunistic that cruz was sucking up to trump and expecting his support to come to him in the end. that's a pretty fair characterization of his strategy. >> i think one of the most tremendously helpful things to my campaign has been donald trump's candidacy. for one thing, it certainly made it interesting. but you know, doesn't has framed the central issue in this primary as who will stand up to washington.
now, if that's the central issue, the natural next question is okay. who actually has stood up to washington. >> the george w. bush camp is not denying the main thrust the report responding the first words out of president bush's mouth sunday night is jeb is going to earn the election and be a great president. he does not view senator cruz as a serious rival to bush's candidacy but a new national poll tells a pretty different story. ted cruz is in third place with 10%, double the support for jeb bush who's way back in sixth place, perhaps even more brutal forever bush, his favorability rating has dropped to 37%, a 15-point plunge in just two months. joining me now charlie pierce, writer for esquire. this is my understanding what we're seeing play out. it's like freud, the revenge of repression, the repressed thing which is the bush presidency will ultimately be your undoing
if you do not talk it out, figure it out and confront it. we are now seeing that play out. >> yes, this just in from wall street. popcorn futures are exploding. all over the blue states. this is the bait we should have had in 2002. this is the argument we should have had in 2003 and 2004. and who is it but you know, the classic bull in the china shop who has shown up and scattered everything that the republican party has tried to forget for 15 years all over the map. >> i find something so remarkable, this one little linguistic tell. if i were the advisor to jeb bush, i would drill him in saying president bush. president bush. or president george w. bush. stop saying my brother. every time he refers to the guy, i understand he's his brother. he has deep personal emotional affection attachment and loyalty to his kin.
but there's something that is so bizarre and unnerving about the my brother kept us safe, my brother did this and that like we're back on the neighborhood school yard lot talking about like who did what in a fight or a whiffle ball match. >> yeah, i've covered enough botching in my other gig to understand that some fighters are just perfectly suited to take advantages of the weaknesses of the other fighters. donald trump is perfectly suited to take advantage of every weakness that jeb bush has as a candidate. he has -- i don't care what issue you name, he has found jeb bush's last nerve and he's jumped on it with both feet. and now, the of this latest thing where he's relitigating the negligence leading up to the 9/11 attacks and then going further now and saying that the response, ie, invading iraq, is the reason for the current situation, i mean, he's so far
off the reservation, he's in another continent. >> you know, it always occurs to me, too, that there's something poetic about the fact that you have donald trump and jeb bush who are both, let's be quite clear, scions of famous families who both inherited a tremendous amount from their fathers who both owe their careers, one man who went into real estate after his father earned a fortune in real estate, another man who went into politics after his father and his father's father went into politics that here are these twos people on the national stage and in some ways the best way to go the after donald trump is his biggest weakness is the fact that he can't outlive his father's had doe. but the worst person to make that argument is the person he's up against who is, of course, john edward bush. >> yeah, and who has turned out much to the surprise of many people to be as maladroit a politics as mitt romney was. you're talking about a guy who is now running fourth in the polls in the state where he used to be governor.
and he's being buried essentially by amateurs. >> yeah. john ellis bush, of course. when we say jeb bush we're saying john ellis bush bush but we go ahead with the jab and exclamation for succinctness. >> even though joe biden isn't running for president at the moment, he's taking shots at hillary clinton. plus, the courting of paul ryan copies. is he conservative enough to impress the group that ousted john boehner? the latest on the negotiations between two and what changes when an officer puts on a body camera an what are the unintended consequences. we'll bring you those stories and more ahead. b! i'll be programming at ge. oh i got a job too, at zazzies. (friends gasp) the app where you put fruit hats on animals? i love that! guys, i'll be writing code that helps machines communicate. (interrupting) i just zazzied you. (phone vibrates)
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note, joe biden's choice of words today. >> i still have a lot of republican friends. i don't think my chief enemy is the republican party. you know, this is a matter of making things work. >> that's the second time in two days he made a point of noting he doesn't see the republicans as the enemy. he went on to suggest his words carry more weight with foreign leaders than clinton's did when she was secretary of state. >> it really matters when people know you are speaking for the president and you have his confidence. and like you and foreign policy, if you notice, i will get sent to go the speak to putin or speak to erdogan or speak to whomever. it's because the secretary of state, we've had two great secretaries of state. but when i go, they know that i am speaking for the president. >> if biden does enter the race it, looks like he will be facing an uphill battle. three new polls show the clinton
attracting the support of about half of democratic primary voters. her lead may be growing in the wake of last week's debate. she was up 7 points from 42 to 49% while both sanders and biden saw their support slip. that wasn't the only bad news for biden. while 30% of democrats said they want to see biden run, 38% would say they prefer he stay out of the race. joining me rebecca tracer writer at large nor for the new york magazine. you have strong feelings about this. look, politics ain't bean bag. everyone here is a grown-up. >> i've always said joe biden enter the race. >> do your thing. >> bring it. >> this is how we do it. >> i've always said we want more competitors in the race and thought it would good for everybody involved. but this is excruciating. there's this-year-old dance whether he'll get in or not. now the timing is probably the worst it to have been. a month ago, at least there was
an argument. she was in trouble, her numbers were slipping. there's a degree that was blown up and she wasn't in a plunge. >> there's also a connection to the fact that people started including biden in polling which was taking some of her support. >> not that much. it should have been a red flag. right now, we're coming at probably the best moment the democratic field has had in months. they had a great debate and sanders came out strong. there's a really strong field. 15 million people tuned in. there's obviously interest in this competition. there's not a clear path for biden to run except by attacking hillary which is what he's doing now, but he's doing it not as a candidate, just as her former colleague saying bad things about her and telling sort of changed stories about what went on around pakistan and the bin laden raid. >> i want to play biden speaking about bin laden today. take a listen. every single person in that room
hedged their bet except leon panetta. leon said go. everyone else said, 49, 51, got to me and said joe, what do you think? i said, you know, i didn't know we had so many economists around the table. i said we owe the man a direct answer. mr. president, my suggestion is don't go. we have to do two more things to see if he's there. >> all right. that's joe biden been in 2012, not today. today he basically said after that whole meeting one-on-one, i said go. so is -- the idea the path to the democratic primary nomination and we're getting a warning paul ryan may be addressing us any moment. but the idea of the democratic primary nomination path is relitigating whose advice on the bin laden raid is insane to me. >> joe biden has not been a good candidate in either of his two past presidential forays. we forget in 1998, he was drummed out not just for plagiarism charges --'88 -- but fudging past details about his
life. he's been getting this enormous credit. all politicians do that. hillary does that. he gets credit for being authentic. he's futzing with details told differently by different people in the room. >> including himself who made a schtick of how he told them not to do the raid. >> his timing is bad. the focusing on bin laden details and changing stories does not bolster the authenticity argument. and he's just not -- he's not showing a real feel for what the party wants including hitting her on saying that republicans are the enemy. >> to me, there's got to be thematic unity. joining us now on capitol hill, luke russert. luke, we're expecting, i imagine to hear from paul ryan and talk about exactly is going on. what's the latest? >> we expect paul ryan to come out. you know what, here he is right now. so we'll take that live.
we're having him walk up right now. i'll sit down. i don't want to block my colleagues' shot. we're going to see paul ryan explaining to the press corps what would cause him to take the job. let's hear from paul ryan of wisconsin. >> tonight i shared with my colleagues what i think it will take to have a unified conference and for the next speaker to be successful. beak, i made a few requests for what i think is necessary and i asked my colleagues to hear back from them by the end of the week. first, we need to move from an opposition party to being a proposition party. because we think the nation is on the wrong path, we have a duty to show the right one. our next speaker has to be a visionary one. second, we need to update our house rules so that everyone can be a more effective representative.
this is after all the people's house. we need to do this as a team. and it needs to include fixes that ensure that we do not experience constant leadership challenges and crises. third, we as a conference should unify now and not after a divisive speaker election. and the last point, last point is personal. i cannot and i will not give up my family time. i may not be on the road as often as previous speakers. but i pledge to try and make up for it with more time communicating our vision, our message. what i told members is, if you can agree to these requests, and if i can truly be a unifying figure, then i will gladly serve. and if i'm not unifying, that will be fine, as well. i'll be happy to stay where i am at the ways and means committee.
here is how i see it. it is our duty to serve the people the way they deserve to be served. it is our duty to make the tough decisions this country needs to get our nation back on track. the challenges we face today are too difficult and demand to turn our backs and walk away. war on multiple fronts. a government grown unaccountable, out of touch, unconstitutional. persistent poverty, a sluggish economy, flat wages, a skyrocketing debt. but we cannot take on these challenges alone. now more than ever we must work together. all of us are representatives of the people. all people. we have been entrusted by them to lead. and yet, the people we serve they do not feel that we are delivering on the job that they hired us to do.
we have become the problem. if my colleagues entrust me to be the speaker, i want us to become the solution. one thing i've learned from my upbringing in janesville is that nothing is ever solved by blaming people. we can blame the president, we can blame the media. and that's kind of fun sometimes. we can point fingers across the aisle. we can blame each other. we can dismiss our critics and criticism as unfair, people don't care about blame. people don't care about effort. people care about results. results that are measurable. results that are meaningful. results that make a difference in their daily lives. i want to be clear about this. i think that we are still an exceptional country with exceptional people. in a republic clearly worth fighting for.
the american idea it's not too late to save. but we are running out of time. and make no mistake, i believe that the ideas and principles of results-driven common sense conservative are the keys to a better tomorrow, a tomorrow in which all of god's children will be better off than they are today. the idea that the role of the federal government is not to facilitate dependency but to create an environment of opportunity for everyone. the idea that government should do less and do it better. the idea that those who serve should say what they mean and mean what they say. the principle that we should all determine the course of our own lives instead of ceding that right to those who think that they are better than the rest of us. yes, we will stand and we will fight when we must.
and surely this presidency will require that. a commitment to natural rights, a commitment to common sense, to compassion, to cooperation, one rooted in genuine conviction and principle is a commitment to conservatism. let me close by saying i considered to do this with reluctance. i mean that in the most personal of ways. like many of you, are jenna and i have children who are in the formative foundational years of their lives. i genuinely worry about the consequences that my agreeing to be will have on them. will they experience the viciousness and incivility we all face here on a daily basis? my greatest worry, my greatest worry is the consequence of not stepping up. of some day having my own kids ask me when the stakes were so high, why didn't you do all you could do?
why didn't you stand and fight for my future when you had a chance to do so. none of us wants to hear that question and none of us should have to. i have shown my colleagues what i think success looks like. what i think it takes to unify and lead and how my family commitments come first. i have left this decision in their hands. and should they agree with these requests, then i am happy and i am willing to get to work. thank you. >> chad? >> reporter: what about what happened in the past couple of weeks? you put out a statement you were very cagey in the hall here. you said that you had concern. consequences of not serving. is that the underlying issue? >> that is. this is not a job i've ever south. i'm in the job i've always wanted here in congress. i came to the conclusion this is a dire moment not just for 0 congress and the republican party but for our country. i think our country is in desperate need of leadership.
>> mr. ryan, do you think that you possess the capabilities of actually unifying this conference? they've gone after john boehner's head, after kevin mccarthy's head. what assurances do you have that you won't be the next one? >> i laid out for our conference what i think it takes to unify the conference and have a successful speakership. it's in their hands. i'll leave it up to my colleagues to decide if i'm that unifying person. >> do you need 235 votes? >> that's what we always do. >> i mean in terms of what you want a unanimous vote? >> i laid it out today with our conference about all the various groups having their endorsement and being that unified candidate. [ inaudible question ] >> that's something that's got to be done by consensus. thank you very much. appreciate it. >> all right. paul ryan comes out and basically says the following,
all right. republican conference, you want me so badly, i'm the only person that could unify the caucus. i will do it once these conditions were met. he laid out the conditions and talked tonight in that brief speech, clearly directed at the so-called house freedom caucus, the 40 members who have been holding sway over the entirety of the 247-vote republican conference with their unity and their essential threat of veto talking about how easy it is to blame but ultimately results have to be delivered. clearly positioning himself as someone who ala the paul ryan who worked out the budget deal with patty murray and the democrat from the senate could the get continuing resolutions passed, could avoid government shutdowns. that was the stake he put in the ground. joining me thomas fann at the brookings institution, co-author "it's even worse than it looks." you wrote a book about how abnormal historically the republican, particularly the republican party and the republican house is. we're seeing that abnormality an play out in terms of the
sequence of events that brought about the end of john boehner, kevin mccarthy not taking the job. now ryan stipulating a variety of conditions. i interpret to bring that can republican caucus to heal, what are the odds that's going to work? >> not high. slim to none and slim just left the bar. listen, it's a tough, tough haul here. what i think ryan has done is met the challenge. he was supposedly the only person who could do this. if he refused to try, then it would not play well with him but he sat down some demands.
he didn't articulate them in enough detail to know exactly how they will play with the freedom caucus. my guess is he'll get his unanimous vote or close to it ahead of the vote, commitment ahead of the vote and he'll string out rules changes so they won't tie his hands. but he still faces the reality that a desertion of a modest number of the new radicals could -- will force him to get democratic support to keep account lights on. >> yeah, this is a key point. one of the things that's being negotiated are rules changes that would essentially power members over leadership quite a bit and give them an ability to bring things to the floor. it would sort of change procedural rules so that they would have greater say over the constitution of legislation. one of the things that he wants is, he wants to get rid of the motion to vacate. there was a motion 0 to vacate against john boehner which is a formal document saying we want new leadership.
what strikes me as the most likely scenario is he'll get the unanimous buy-in now but there's going to be controversy like the ones we've seen lined up in boehner's speakership six, nine months from now. it's unclear why the buy-in now is going to bind anyone then, right? >> well, that's exactly how i feel. and it's important for people to understand the problem is not one of ideological difference. paul ryan is as no less, no more conservative than the freedom caucus, but he is a pragmatist. he knows to actually enact a conservative visioning into law, you need to win the white house as well as the house and the senate. and creating chaos in the house is a formula for continued divided government and frustration. so he -- he wants to be pragmatic.
he wants to keep things running along and he's taking a chance that you know, that he can round up the radicals for the period of time before the election. but if the democrats continue to control the majority and i mean continue to control the white house, it's hard to imagine any speaker being able to stay in office. >> all right, thank you. i'm joined by mckay coppins, the senior political writer for buzzfeed news and betsy woodruff, the politics reporter for "the daily beast." two people that cover the republican party in the conservative movement. what do you make of what just happened. >> it's important to understand where paul ryan's head is at. there's been a lot of reporting about this. i know it's important, if you look back over his last decade in washington, he has been working toward his current job as chair of the house ways and means committee, beak his whole
career. this was his dream job. it's a wonky position, not well-known outside of washington but it's incredibly powerful. i believe him when he says he never aspired to this job. the person that he models his career after is jack kemp who exerted immense influence over the republican party from house ways and means committee, from being kind of a public national figure. paul ryan wants to be a unifying figure. we've seen him, you mentioned dabble in legislation where he's tried to play to role. it's remarkable, i think, that he has gotten to the point now where he is essentially saying that he's going to do the job. let's be honest. like that press conference that he just gave, there is no way that after saying that you know, i'm willing to do it now if these demands are met, that if one of his demands aren't met, he's going to go never mind, i'm not going to do it. >> that's what's so fascinating about this back and forth is each side trying to claim maximum leverage.
the house freedom caucus beak saying we'll vote for daniel webster, someone who widely is seen as having no shot at being house speaker. they said we've 40 votes for him tied up. then they said paul ryan, we can take or leave him. paul ryan, he's a squish on immigration. >> paul ryan going here are my demands. it seems to me like we are now in a negotiation and there's going to be some horse trading. > and paul ryan in kind of a funny way is saying to the freedom caucus, hey, guys, ball's in your court. one thing that's interesting given the timing of ryan's announcement that it's tonight is that this comes just a few days after ted cruz went on the sunday shows and said that and refused to say that paul ryan was a true conservative. i think what's really important for context on all this is how some of the goal posts for what it means to be conservative have
shifted. since president obama's re-election, we've had two major issues galvanize the republican base. simultaneously galvanize them and divide them from the corporate interests that often back republican candidates. those issues are immigration and trade. the fact that paul ryan is almost adamantly against where sort of the trump base wing of the republican party is at on those issues, that's a problem for him. look, his presser tonight was obviously a very effective. he sounds sincere but i'm not sure that the rhetoric that come together kumbiya approach will be enough to get these guys to shift their gears. >> the physics of this have not changed at all. all the specific gravity of the items in motion have remained totally unchanged. it doesn't matter what paul ryan, how much time he wants to spend with his kids is awesome and kudos to him for laying those down as a marker. they don't care. >> this is the problem with this negotiating tactic doesn't work because the house freedom caucus
doesn't can be actually want him to be speaker. they don't care. so saying i'm not going to do it unless you guys give into my demands doesn't get him anywhere. >> there's a test of that. what happens next? because if they really don't care, if the kind of institutional force the republican party is so withered and so atrophied and so at a kind of low ebb, then maybe they say screw it, we'll roll the dice at daniel webster and they do that. i think you and i both think that's not going to happen. >> no, i don't. i would say after this press conference, i think the biggest hurdle was this. him now saying i'm willing to do the job means he's probably going to get the job. >> this guy's been saying i don't want the job, i don't want the job and everyone's saying you're going to take the job. there is this kind of like drawn metallurgical force that seems to be pulling ryan towards the speakership which he himself doesn't appear to have the power to resist. >> he's like cincinnatus.
he just wants to go back to the farm. it's kind you have hard to watch this poor guy getting his teeth pulled. >> let's be clear. this poor guy is about to be one of the most powerful people in the world. ooze going to be third in line to the president of the most powerful country on earth. whether he has a hard time with raul labrador raking him over the kohl's. >> don't you feel like john boehner's spirit was broken by the end of that? i wouldn't want that. >> it ain't bean bag. you know what i mean? it's the big league. this is how it works. >> mckay coppins and betsy woodruff, thank you back. we will be right back. >> sure thing. >> i didn't know what the event was tonight. if i knew it was a paul ryan rally for speaker of the house, i wouldn't be here. >> i don't want to step on paul's message. he wants party unity before he agrees to run. it resonated with me. i thought he did an excellent job, made a great presentation
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that will improve transparency and accountability. it will help protect good people on both sides of the lens. >> that was hillary clinton calling for police body cameras back in april in the aftermath of freddie grays death in baltimore and the ensuing unrest. now the justice department is out with a new study that examines the impact of police officers "wearing body cameras. some of those results are quite surprising. stay with us. ♪ ♪ [ girl ] my mom, she makes underwater fans that are powered by the moon. ♪ [ birds squawking ] my mom makes airplane engines that can talk.
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while officers in a comparison group without cameras had a 10% increase in complaints against officers. however, the study also found "the camera wearing officers increased their average daily arrest activity by 42.6% which is nearly triple the increase among comparison group officers of 14.9%. marc claxton, director of the black law enforcement alliance and co-founder and president for policing equity. dr. goff, let me start with you. you have complaints of excessive force going down in the group wearing cameras but arrests going way up in comparison to the group not wearing the cameras. is that a surprising result to you. >> it's actually not that surprising. we expect when people know they're on camera, they're able to act in ways that they're better able to justify. that means we're taking away some kinds of discretion. right? so it's less likely i'm going to use excessive force because folks are watching. if i've pulled somebody over, i
might become nervous if i don't charge them with something, then maybe i didn't pull them over for a good enough reason. we're kind of baiting officers into making more arrests for every time they're stopping and contacting someone. there's discretion that officers have that are actually in the interests of justice. >> so mark, does that jibe with the way having been on the job that you think that's what's driving had data we're seeing? >> yeah, that would had consistent with what i would id expect from the immediate reaction from police officers, law enforcement, you know, there's an adjustment period that's necessary here, especially when you're talking about police nationwide who are really in the midst of this increase in kind of aggressive enforcement-based policing. so to make this adjustment and to still apply the proper amount of discretion will be challenging. but i suspect that months forward, years forward, there will be the adjustment back down to the proper use of discretion as well as the proper use of
enforcement. >> so you think, that's interesting. your prediction is there will be a spike in arrests at the beginning as everyone says, i'm being monitored. if i pulled over, i have to go through with the arrest because that will justify the stop as opposed to letting them go and someone's going to second-guess me. but you think that will come back down over time? >> i believe so. i think initially what will happen in many of these pilot cases is that the police officers who are wearing the body cameras want to make sure they justify their existence. so they will necessarily increase their enforcement. >> interesting. >> and decrease some of the interaction, some of the discretion that's used. i think long-term because discretion is a valuable part of any enforcement model. i think in time, that it will come back to the point where they'll be more of a balance and more of an understanding about the proper use of discretion as opposed to enforcement. >> this discretion question, dr. goff, reminded me of something we saw happening with sentencing guidelines.
there was a sense there was a empirically i huge racial disparity in the sentences for black and white defendants. one of the solutions was take discretion away from the judges and enforce equity by essentially giving mandatory minimums and sentencing guidelines. that is part of what played into this massive incarceration. there's a movement against mandatory minimums. i wonder if we end up in a place of unintended consequences with body cameras? >> we're going to end up in a place of unintended consequences if we're not careful how we put them out. think about it this way. when was the last time a civil rights struggle was calling loudly for more state surveillance? it's a very odd kind of unique thing in our history. i also want to challenge one other thing in terms of the good news of the study. there is good news and troubling news here. the decrease in complaints is not necessarily an unambiguously good news.
in departments we work with, when the community feels more trust in law enforcement, complaints often go up. >> fascinating. > because they're campaigning to the people investigating themselves. >> we should make the point, complaints and infractions are not the same thing. >> that's exactly right. >> so complaint doesn't actual be as a perfect measure. it may be a deeply imperfect measure of the actual infractions that are being committed by officers in a given department. >> it might be fear of surveillance and what else might you charge me with. there's a kind of intimidation that comes from knowing you're on camera even if you're fairly certain you haven't done anything wrong. we don't know anything about that. one is a year long study. there's another study that just came out in tampa bay in florida that's a relatively smaller study. we still need more data to get a sense of it. it's pretty ambiguous. we haven't started talking about the terrible consequences for privacy when we start giving these kinds of cases out. we have to start releasing these incidents to the media.
it's in somebody's home or there's someone in the background in a bad situation. there's way more to be talking about here. it will be negative be consequences if we're not careful. >> marc, the sense i have is police officers are skeptical about this in the beginning. they've come around on body cameras. what's your sense where they are on this. >> you can fully expect and there was and will continue to be some pushback from the law enforcement community. let's be honest about it. i don't think anyone's really happy with increased surveillance as dr. goff just indicated and especially when you're talking about law enforcement community as far as surveillance is concerned. they have no problem with surveilling you if they suspect you or surveilling you or areas speed cameras. no problem with that, but when you say listen, we're going to monitor the search situation, there's always going to be the pushback. i think long-term, this will be accepted because it's really a tidal wave of support for body cameras.
i think people understand that this is not the panacea. this is not the answer but it's a key component in long-term answers. >> mark claxton and philip goff, thank you both. that is all in for this evening. rachel starts right now. >> thanks, my friend. thanks to you for joining us this hour. it was a liberal speech of proportions that no one expected. these are the canadian provinces, the ten canadian provinces and these are the canadian provinces in which the liberal party last night either swept up every single seat that that province has in parliament or they at least won the majority. and turns out when you take every single seat in all of the atlantic provinces and you take a majority of the seats in the big population centers of quebec and ontario, well, that's all you need. and than surprising liberal wave last night is how the great nation of canada ousted this guy after nearly ten years in power