tv The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell MSNBC December 5, 2016 10:00pm-11:01pm PST
in an alley, this was someone building a fake rolex store and operated for ten years. wow is an understatement. quite a story. that does it for us. rachel will be back tomorrow. and now it's time for lawrence o'donnell. >> i don't get the rolex thing. i'm a timex guy. >> i should have said saeco. >> fake news is now on the verge of getting someone killed. that's what happened in washington at a pizza restaurant, thanks to the kinds of tweets being passed around by donald trump's choice for national security adviser, michael flifrn. and we have breaking news about joe biden openly considering running for president in 2020. also tonight be live from the standing rock reservation.
david ar overwhelm bow will join us, along with shailene woodley, the actress who has been so active from the very beginning, all that coming up. >> you are not allowed to be a president if you are not born in this country. >> promoting false and reckless conspiracy theory do come with consequences. >> a man opened fire at a popular pizzaria, apparently because of fake news. >> online conspiracy theory known as pizza gate. >> suggesting the pizza shop was at the center of a child sex ring organized by hillary clinton. >> it sounds absolutely insane. and this is as fake as it gets. >> we're excited to have dr. carson as our intended nominee for housing and urban development. >> he went after his mother with a hammer. >> what do you know about that? >> i know i grew up in the inner city. >> he lunged that knife. >> people in washington have had the experience, what a fine job
they've done. >> 2020. >> he wanted us to know he has not closed that door. >> so what the hell. new york senator daniel patrick moynahan famously said more than once, we're all entitled to our own opinion but not our own facts. senator moan han died in 2003, so we are left to imagine what his reaction would be to a trump supporter who said the other day, there's to such thing unfortunately anymore as facts. that trump supporter, scotty nel hughes is paid to say things by cnn. she said her statement on a washington radio show. cnn is a news network, which is supposed to be dedicated to the pursuit of and delivery of facts.
and these days, when it is not delivering the paid-for gibberish of the likes of scotty nel hughes, they are doing their share of outrage stories about fake news. nowhere in cnn's outrage stories about fake news is there any reference to the believers and purveyors of fake news that cnn employs. their team of trump supporters who will support, defend and deflect any lie that donald trump tells at any time. most people working at that network are honest, fair-minded people trying to find the truth. most of them are no-doubt horrified that their network delivers fake news every day in the fact-free commentaries of scotty nel hughes and others. when we say fake news is everywhere, we don't mean it's all over the internet and in a bunch of otherwise unknown websites.
it's on national, cable news networks, every day. fake news is in the tweets of donald trump day in and day out. and has been for many years. every lie donald trump told about president obama's birth certificate was fake news, made up by donald trump. and so the presidential candidacy that was launched on fake news, based on the hatred of president obama, became the presidential campaign that won the electoral college, fueled by fake news and hatred of hillary clinton. whenever donald trump retweeted a fake news lie by a white supremacist and was called on it, he would always say he was just retweeting it. it's just a retweet. and he would offer other defenses like this. >> i don't know. what do i know about it? all i know is what's on the internet. >> all i know is what's on the internet. to survive a president who knows only what's on the internet, we need president to be surrounded
by a staff that knows better. a white house staff, cabinet members, a security staff that is able to separate fact from fiction. the most sensitive white house job that is not subject to senate confirmation is national security adviser. henry kissinger was the first to make that job a high-profile, world-famous position. dr. kissinger as he preferred to be called in honor of his ph.d. worked hard on myth ol jazzing himself into the smartest man. donald trump's man will be going into with the opposite image. he is incapable of separating fact from fiction. he was busy retweeting false stories about hillary clinton being involved with a crew who were engaged in sex tribes with
children. one of the false articles general flynn retweeted said there was enough evidence, quote, to put hillary and her crew away for life. so general flynn was not just in the "lock her up" crowd, he was in the lock her up and throw away the key crowd, based on absolutely nothing. to say general flynn disgraced himself with these tweets is to sound old-fashioned to anyone in the trump world where there are no fact. where there are no facts, there is no right or wrong. where there are no facts, there is no guilt. so general flynn surely does not feel guilty tonight that men, women and children in washington, d.c. almost got killed because of the kind of stuff that he tweets.
on sunday, a man with a gun walked into a pizza place in washington, d.c. which according to fake news reports was one of the places in hillary clinton's conspiracy to use children from sex. he carried an assault rifle into the pizza place to self-investigate, that was his term, self-investigate, how the pizza restaurant was employing children for sex. he fired his weapon but luckily no one was injured. they were terrified. edgar welsh has been charged with assault with a deadly weapon. michael flynn has been charged with nothing. he is of course legally guilty of nothing. but in the court of public opinion he is now charged with being a very dangerous man. a dangerous man who will be at the president aesz side when
they are trying to assess the facts of national security situations. a man who is no better at separating fact from fiction than scotty nel hughes, who doesn't even try. because there are no facts. joining us now is congressman adam schiff. congressman, you commented on this today, issued a public statement about it, and your reaction to general flynn and that inability, it seems to separate fact from fiction. >> it's terrifying really. it permeates the incoming administration. it comes from the top down. this is someone who helped propagate the birther myth and sent out a tweet saying hundreds of millions of undocumented immigrants have voted and an adviser who says that fear of all muslims is rational. so this is really quite a
terrifying prospect, because what the president-elect doesn't seem to realize is there are going to be times when the country really needs to believe its president, and if he is willing to pro pound these fake news stories. if he's willing to make blatantly false statements like millions of illegal immigrants skroeting, when the company really needs to believe something he asserts, it is very likely that a significant number if not the vast majority of americans simply won't. and the same goes for our allies and adversaries. so i've been hoping that he will grow into the job, hoping that he would make the transition to being a president, but these events don't show that he is growing with responsibilities, and that's quite a frightening prospect. >> congressman schiff, knowing the work that the national
security adviser is charged with, and the intimacy of that position to the presidency in all national security matters, that ability to sift through intelligence, to be trying to find what's the best information we have. this is something that has challenged the best team in the white house over time. and some of the best teams have gotten certain things wrong at certain times, but what you could, no most cases, what you wouldn't doubt is that they were attempting always, with the best methods, to find the best information. >> well, would you certainly hope so. and there's profound reason for concern as recently as the last few weeks when there was abundant evidence and in fact the director of national intelligence spoke to russian involvement in hacking our elections, and you had the president-elect and the nominee
for national security adviser essentially carrying russian water and saying we don't know that it's the russians, it could be the chinese, a 400-pound person, if they're willing to ignore what the intelligence tells us when it doesn't suit their interests, they're willing to ignore it on other circumstances. one part of that job which is equally important is bringing together disparate voices within the administration, the secretary of defense, secretary of state, national security council, secretary of homeland security when there are really tough calls to be made and forging a consensus. and that requires someone who is thoughtful, a bedrock of stability and regrettably, that was not general flynn's reputation when he ran the national defense agency. there are concerns, chief among them, if we cannot allow the facts to guide our decision making, we've got a real problem on our lives.
>> joining us, a columnist for the daily beast. it's called the honest broker job in the white house because of all those different didn'tal intersections that go through that office, sorting out what is the best decision-making men eye u for the president, and when you think of who've had this job, all of them have got and lot of attention while in the job. they have all made every effort they possibly can to be perceived as careful, as circumspect. most of them shy away from interviews while they're in that job. they are not inclined to testify to congress. they usually don't have to, because that's what cabinet members are doing. and it's mostly regarded as the job requiring the most discretion of any in the white house. >> yeah, it's a very serious job, and general flynn has disqualified himself from holding the job. so the question that all the rest of us face in the press and congress is what are we going to
do about it beyond wringing our hands. and i agree with the congressman, it's a terrifying situation. and we'll assume that we're all powerless to put pressure on him to not take this position, i think underestimates the power of other actors in washington. i'm reminded that john sununu, when he ran into trouble for taking a car in an unauthorized way to a stamp collection meeting, that was his offense, he was forced to resign by public pressure. we've forgotten the concept of public pressure. my question is, where is the stake-out of general flynn's house? since the 1920s, the press in washington, when somebody had serious questions to answer as general flynn does tonight, staked out his house.
and the person in question was not allowed in and out without facing the shouted questions of reporters. and until they got answers to those questions, the feeding frenzy, as it used to be called. >> mm-hm. >> did not end. so what we need now is a feeding frenzy on this story. this man cannot take this job until he apologizes for spurring a violent act in washington, helping spur a violent act. i won't lay all the responsibility at it at him. but the idea that he has no responsibility for peddling lies and his son was his chief of staff, michael flynn jr. has doubled down on this and said that the onus is now on this restaurant to prove that this lie is not true. which is even more insane. so until general flynn says no, this was a lie, i'm sorry that i retweeted it, i'll move forward in a more responsible fashion, the pressure must mount and mount including resolutions congress, stake-out whatever it takes.
>> has washington in the age of trump lost its ability to form outrage since there has been so much to form outrage about? >> this is a very good question. here's the challenge. we have a president-elect who throughout the last year has said and done things that would be utterly disqualifying in the past. and how many times have we had illustrations of this when he said john mccain wasn't a hero, because he only admired people who didn't get caught. when the tape came out about his getting off the bus and bragging about sexually assaulting women. all of these things and so many more were viewed as completely disqualifying, end of story, and yet they weren't. and yet he went on to win this election with the nomination and the general election.
so the standard has been dramatically altered. who could have imagined honestly, would you have someone weeks from being sworn in as president of the united states who would send out a deliberate falsehood saying that millions of illegal people voted in the election. there ought to be a stakeout about that. half the country is ready to accept that as the new way of life. and half the country is terrified that the prospect that this is what the next four years are going to look like. and we are really quite in a new ball game here and we'll have the most profound consequences. >> congressman adam schiff thank you for joining us. and you've been hanging out with joe biden. coming up, republicans and repealing obamacare. they are now facing the reality of it, and think do not like the reality, so they have come up with a new trick for their obamacare repeal. and later, breaking news that i mentioned. joe biden openly thinking about running for president.
it's something he also discussed with jonathan alter. we'll be discussing that. and also live from the standing rock reservation tonight, the leader of the tribe will join us along with shailene woodley, that's coming up. for lower back pain sufferers the search for relief often leads... here, or here. today there's a new option. introducing drug-free aleve direct therapy. a tens device with high intensity power that uses technology once only available in doctors' offices. its wireless remote let's you control the intensity. and helps you get back to things like... this, or this. and back to being yourself. introducing new aleve direct therapy. find yours in the pain relief aisle. check your sunday paper for up to $13 in savings.
so repeal and replace has become repeal and wait. remember how simple it all used to sound? >> real change begins with immediately repealing and replacing the disaster known as obamacare. [cheers and applause] >> that was a long time ago. about a week before the election. and here is donald trump five days after the election. >> we're going to do it simultaneously. it will be just fine. we're not going to have like a two-day period and we're not going to have a two-year period where there's nothing. it will be repealed and replaced and we'll know. and it will be great health care for much less money. >> but now congressional republicans who have been pretending for years that they just want to repeal obamacare knowing that they couldn't as long as there was a democrat in
the white house are facing the political reality of what happens if they really do repeal obamacare. 20 million ben fisheries will be very angry, because they would lose their health insurance that day. they're out. no more long waits no the doctor's waiting room because they wouldn't be allowed in the doctor's waiting room. donald trump and the republicans would be taking health insurance away from 20 million people. now republicans don't want to pay the political price for doing that. so the plan is to repeal obamacare early next year but delay the effective day of that repeal until three years from that, after the next congressional election. and in that three-year period, the republicans are hoping they can come up with something they can call a replacement for obamacare, but there is no replacement that any republican has ever proposed that would
deliver health insurance to 20 million people. and the smartest guy in the house of representatives knows that. >> the first bill you intend to pass. >> the first bill we will be working on is our obamacare legislation. >> you're going to repeal it first? >> no. we want to make sure we have a good transition period so people can get better coverage at a better price. >> so are we talking about months? years? >> we're still working on that. what we know is we have to make good on this promise. we have to bring relief as fast as possible to people who are struggling under obamacare. >> today paul ryan said he wants to find a replacement to obamacare, quote, so that no one is left out in the cold, so that no one is worse off. joining us now is steven brill, author and journalist. steve, your book is the exhaustive study of how obamacare was done, what's in it, how it works.
the republicans, paul ryan, have had over five years to figure out the answer to scott pelley's question, which is basically, what do you replace it with, and the ryan rule now is, not one person can be worse off after the republicans have done their replace. >> that's right. and it's not only the 20 million people who got care. it's the people who didn't suffer from the old preexisting condition rules. it's a pretty broad swath. and as you point out, from the day the law was passed in march of 2010, they have said we have to repeal it. and the democrats have said well, what's your plan? in fact, their plan was obamacare. it's worth mentioning again and again that obamacare was the
slightly more conservative version of romney care, a republican, which was a slightly more conservative version of something richard nixon proposed. so the only plan the republicans have ever had is obamacare. which is why they can't think of an alternative. >> also there's that issue of once you say we're going to take care of the people with preexisting conditions, there's a giant amount of intervention. everything occurs once you do that. >> right, because it's, the phrase they use is the three-legged stool. if you're going to let anybody buy health insurance who has a preexisting condition, to get more people into the insurance pool you have to have a mandate, which the republicans suddenly hate, but which is a concept invented by the conservatives at the heritage foundation and endorsed by president nixon and endorsed by governor romney. now if you hate the mandate, then you can't get rid of the preexisting condition bar. so that falls apart. and with all that come the subsidies. the people, if they have to
abide by the mandate have the money to buy health insurance. this whole thing really falls apart. now what's also amusing about this is nobody's talking about the central problem that obamacare did not solve, which is the cost of health care. i notice that the speaker said and the president-elect has said, we're going to have a better program at lower cost. there isn't a single proposal, even in the drafts that the republicans have done, which they admit, obviously, now aren't realistic that lowers the kohl's of prescription drugs, that lowers the cost of going to your favorite, newspaper-profit hospital whose, which has, you know, profit margins that are much higher than the average insurance company. there's nothing that goes after costs. >> and what we see in this is there's donald trump, absolutely determined, repeal and replace. it's all going to be done at once. and there he is five days after the election saying oh, no, no, no.
there won't be a two-minute gap, a two-year gap. and not a peep out of donald trump. if this is the model, as i expected it to be. donald trump is just going to be taking dictation from the house republicans. >> let's remember that speaker ryan said we need a three-year transition. transition to what? if they needed a transition, they need a law that repeals obamacare and replaces it with x. they haven't told us what x is, because they have no idea. and they've had eight years to deal with it with no idea. >> but it sounds like day one will be repeal. >> and what they're going to try to make this like is the fiscal cliff. there's nothing to take its place after, guess when. >> you democrats have to agree to whatever we've legislated. >> and if you don't agree, it's
your fault. >> thank you. we appreciate it. coming up, our breaking news report of joe biden openly now considering running for president in 2020. also, live from the standing rock sioux reservation, dave archambault will join us with shailene woodley. says it won't let up for a while. the cadillac xt5... what should we do? ...tailored to you. wait it out. equipped with apple carplay compatibility. ♪ now during season's best, get this low mileage lease on this cadillac xt5 from around $429 per month, or purchase with 0% apr financing. what's going on? oh hey!
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joe biden said this today on capitol hill. >> my staff always kids me. every time i come up here, i feel invigorated. this is where i spent my life. i'm going to run in 2020. >> for what? >> for president. so what the hell? anyway. >> we're going to run with that, so. >> that's okay. that's okay. >> just to be clear, were you kidding about running for president in 2020? >> i'm not committing not to run. i'm not committing to anything. i learned a long time ago. >> nbc's kelly o'donnell is one of the reporters asking joe biden about those comments he just made. she had this to say tonight on "hardball" with chris matthews. >> my sense is that he wants to keep that door open.
he's 74 years old now. the facts of the election have played out. it's not even a month since the election. there is, i think in a world if hillary clinton had been president, certainly, he would not have challenged her. but now with donald trump, a republican about to take office, might he reconsider it? >> joining us now, jonathan alter. and a msnbc contributor. what do we have here? >> i'm the other one. >> there's too many jonathans. i'm going to read them off, there's too many jonathans. i knew that wasn't your introduction. jonathan capehart. did you bring your pulitzer prize with you? >> i did not. >> if you had it with you it would make it easier. every presidential election night, as the returns are coming in. and the party that is losing, there's a half-dozen people looking at that and going, okay, do i run in four years? do i run in four years? now it sounds like we know who one of them was.
>> are we surprised by this? we've been talking about the fact that joe biden, vice president biden wanted to, wants to, will forever run for president of the united states. it is something i think is an inherent part of his character and nature. and i don't say that in a disparaging way, it's just something that we all know about him. so i am not surprised to hear him say oh, yeah, i'm going to run in 2020. >> jonathan, you had a chance to talk to him about this recently. >> yeah, i did. i went to south america with him this past week. look, he wants to be vital. and he's vital. he's only four years older than donald trump. and in a hell of a lot better shape than trump is. so his feeling is, he's not going to walk away and go gently into that good night of vice presidential retirement. he's going to stay super active and whether he runs for president or not, and clearly he hasn't made any decision about whether or not to do it, you're a lot more part of the process
if you're possible candidate than a retiree. so it's a smart thing for him to do politically. >> and i will be 78 years old when running, bob dole, 73 is the highest age of any nominee. also thinking about it, i have officially declared. also thinking about it tonight are senator cory booker, 47 years old, elizabeth warren, 67 years old. i am sure bernie sanders is thinking about it. tim kaine should be thinking about it. mark cuban. >> there's going to be a lot of people like trump who don't come from politics. >> that's true. >> i talked to a guy in the white house today who suggested to me that it's going to be a really big field the next time around, maybe even bigger than the 17 who ran on the republican side. >> there are reports that senator kristin gillibrand is thinking about it. kamala harris. would she be in that obama mold? >> i agree with jonathan, that the field in 2020 will probably
be huge. but i think there's something more important for the democratic party in the near term, is that they are going to need voices and big guns to help them get through the next two years of this new president, and so having a former president, president obama, having a former vice president, joe biden, hillary clinton, if she, you know, comes out and becomes more active in the aftermath of the election, i think that's how joe biden and all these folks stay relevant. the party has, like i said, the party has an immediate short-term issue that it has to deal with, and that is white house and congress in the hands of republicans and tearing down everything that they've all worked so hard for. >> it's about whether they're going to enlist to resist. and every citizen, whether politicians or not, has to face that question e >> going to
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in the 500 years of tenses between native-american tribes and those who conquered the country and took it as their own, there have been good days and bad days for the tribe. mostly bad days. the tribes persevered. in the settlers' genocidal march across the continent, some tribes were exterminated. others against all odds survived. some might say miraculously. the standing rock sioux survived for hundreds of years, and they were prepared to do that in a desperate attempt to stop construction of a pipeline
through their sacred lands and under the missouri river, causing a threat to their water supply. it was a protest like no other. drawing tribes why all over the north american continent. when i visited standing rock a few months ago, i found people simply standing their ground and praying. putting more faith in prayer than in the law that has betrayed them so many times over so many centuries. and yesterday, in a shocking development to everyone at the camp, on what was the day before a threatened, forced removal of the protesters. the army corps of engineers, operating under president obama's approval refused to allow construction of the pipeline under the missouri river and said alternate routes for the pipeline would have to be considered.
>> we're obviously so happy. >> yes, because they don't realize the grandchildren, the next generation, and i'm very happy. >> these are tears of happiness right now. >> yes, yes, they are. >> i have a granddaughter. i also love my people. i've been here for a long time and helping the people in the community. helping here at the camp. >> joining us now via skype, dave archambault, also with us by phone, shailene woodley, she's been protesting the pipeline, made several visits to the location since the protests have started. dave, tell us what it was like yesterday, how you got the news and how you told everyone there about the news.
>> i got a phone call from assistant secretary darcy, and she informed me that the corps of engineers was not going to grant the easement and they would come out with the firm notice in a couple hours. so it was a relief. and i wanted to be at the camp and make the announcement to the people, but before i even made the announcement, people were already aware and walking up to me, asking if the news was true, so i would just say yes, and then, you know, it was an overwhelming feeling of relief, because it feels hike the first time in the history of this country that native-americans have been heard. >> and talk about that, dave. this is a group that has, that has been accustomed to, over the centuries, treachery in dealing with the american government and here they were in a protest
that, as i say, legally at certain points, seemed hopeless, but i never had a sensation of hopelessness from anyone there. >> yeah, we felt like the deck was definitely stacked against us no matter what we do. the company had every right and was moving forward regardless, even though the federal government had asked, they said we're going to go on no matter what. and they put their investors' moneys at risk, the banks that loaned them money for this project is at risk, and they continued to force their hand on us, and it just felt like there was nothing we could do. and i truly am so thankful that the administration took the courage to -- >> looks like dave, dave's frozen up there. shailene woodley, you were one of the first to go out to standing rock before any of your colleagues in the acting community went out there, and i
think you inspired many others to join you out there. what brought you out there, and what did it feel like yesterday when you got the news? >> caller: i heard about the pipeline back in february from a few friends. and worked with some of the youth from standing rock. this movement really did stem from the youth out here getting together and recognizing that if they didn't stand up to protect their water, not only would they not have clean drinking water for their future, but all future generations wouldn't either. and at that time, it was really hard to get press. for months and months and months, nobody was paying attention, and now the whole world knows about this. and something, as an outsider, somebody who's come in to support this movement, yesterday being at camp and seeing the relief and the celebration and also the, you know, the knowledge that this is far from over, you know. there's the pipeline that the navajo nation is facing, the
pipeline in new york. there's so many pipelines, but what this movement has done is shown that native-americans for far too long, like you mentioned in our country, have been silenced, have been ignored. the media hasn't paid attention, the government hasn't paid attention. and now that millions of people are watching, i pray that moving forward those millions of people continue to watch and continue to support. and i think that was the feeling that a lot of people were experiencing yesterday, this moment of celebration and also knowing that we have to keep our boot traps buckled. there's a lot of work to do. and we cannot, we cannot ignore the fact that there is that work to do, and how do we move forward in a good way now that we are united and stay in a place of listening and stay in a place of humility to honor the indigenous populations in our country and support them in the
issues that they're facing. >> dave, to shailene's point of getting media attention to this, this was the first national television program to report on standing rock, and i was kind of surprised at the time that we were the first. and it's been fascinating to watch since then how long it took to ramp up to this point where it has become, prior to yesterday, had become "the" story out there for everyone to be covering. yesterday, when that word came and you had the chance to tell everyone about it, that's one of the few times in tribal history where there's a win like this to report to them. how did that feel to the group and to you yourself to be the person who was delivering a victory message to people who were not accustomed to hearing victory messages?
>> it's an overwhelming feeling that i can't describe. it's just joy and excitement. and relief all at the same time. and it wasn't just me that worked at this. it was everybody that was supporting and contributed from our legal team to our tribal staff to the people who, all around the world came, all the tribes who recognized this problem and this and had a true concern for what was happening. and to finally hear the corps of engineers make a decision, and it was in our favor, it was almost unbelievable. >> chairman dave archambault and shailene woodley, thank you both for joining us on this important night, appreciate it. >> thank you. >> thank you. coming up, ben carson thinks he is unfit to run a cabinet department, but that didn't stop
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no cure for that, folks, but if you're a child molester, there's no cure. they can't stop you. pathological, there's no cure. and we're going to put somebody in office who considers himself to have pathological disease. read the definition in the dictionary of pathological disease! and i'm not saying it. he said it about hip self before he knew he was going to run for office. anything meant to stand needs a stable foundation.
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just three weeks ago, dr. ben carson said having me as a federal bureaucrat would be like a fish out of water quite frankly. back with us, jonathan capehart, elysse, here's a guy who's advertised he's unfit for the cabinet. donald trump says that won't prevent you from being in my cabinet. >> it's for a man who's going to oversee employees and a $50 million budget. i frankly have neff demonstrated that much of an interest in
federal housing policy, but then that's the appointment. >> ben carson has publicly said the words that would condemn him, which is "i'm unfit to do this." >> yes. >> what is this about? >> i think it's about several things, president-elect trump has nominated someone who's only qualification for this is that i think he's even said this, his patients have come from public housing. he's from detroit. like that's some blanket job qualification. the other thing you have to cope -- keep in mind is, this is the only african-american who's been nominated for any cabinet post. so the only person donald trump nominates is a person who is woefully unqualified. he's a neurosurgeon. why wasn't he made health and human services secretary. that's at least remotely
plausible. maybe because of the clips you ran before where donald trump was saying that ben carson suffers from a pathological disease, that he got turned down for hhs and was given hud. this, that agency is so vital to millions of americans. millions of americans -- >> and collection. and complex. >> and complex. >> it's a double signal to conservatives that they're not going to see any reform in some of the cronie capitalism. it's a signal to liberals. so neither side is getting any promise of competency from this appointment. >> and the last thing is, hud used to be the place where presidents put their black nominee, and look, everything old is new again. >> thank you both for so