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tv   Andrea Mitchell Reports  MSNBC  December 16, 2016 9:00am-10:01am PST

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russia the u.s. will respond to the election year hacking. >> we need to take action. we will, at a time and place of our own choosing. some of it may be explicit and publicized. some of it may not be. >> trump's take. still not blaming vladimir putin. now he's taking on the white house press secretary over the russia hack. >> this foolish guy josh earnest. i don't know if he's talking to president obama. you know, having the right press secretary is so important. because he's so bad. but the president is positive. but he's not positive. maybe he's getting ordered from somebody else. >> casualties of war. stand-offs in aleppo today as thousands try to escape the bombed out city. some wounds may take a lifetime to heal. >> as they fled aleppo's ruins, one final trauma.
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children shot at. it was meant to be a cease-fire, yet still gunmen targeted them as they left the rebel-held east. their terror was clear. their mothers close. >> good day, everyone. i'm andrea mitchell in washington. president obama will hold his last news conference of the year in a few hours. he would likely be pressed to explain how he plans to retaliate against russia for trying to destabilize the election through cyber war. bhar the president's options. even more challenging what can he do in the month left in office given donald trump's proclaimed skepticism that russia was even responsible. the president was asked about it on npr. >> if whatever response you take isn't completed by january 20, do you have any reason to have confidence that president trump will continue it?
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>> my view is this is not a partisan issue. part of what we should be doing is to try to take it out of election season and move it in to governing season. >> joining me now is msnbc national correspondent peter alexander at the white house. nbc chief foreign correspondent richard engel in moscow and jeremy peters. first to you, peter. let's talk about the extraordinary situation where the president will be pressed to talk about a highly secret operation if he does have steps. he's pressed also on why politically he didn't take more public action before the election. sort of damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. >> you're right. he'll be pressed on whether he thinks what happened in november was a free and fair election. trump aides say this is all about delegitimizing the election. that's another topic i
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anticipate he'll be asked about in the course of this. so what are the range of options he faces now? does he need to be very public about it, do something where he shows the evidence? a lot of our reporting at nbc news is based on u.s. intelligence officials. he says there are a lot of assessments taking place. how strong does he feel about the evidence, about vladimir putin's direct role in this and what does the response look like with the risk that many people fear this becomes some form of a tit for tat situation. what are the parameters within which he's working and is there potential he could further escalate this and at the end of all the questions is if he has faith in anything he does will stick when donald trump assumes the presidency on january 20. we are barely a month from that date. his options in some ways are limited. >> indeed they are. meanwhile in moscow, richard engel, uchb reporting on the
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reaction there. this as vladimir putin is in japan today. but a lot of reaction in his circle in moscow to what happened, they are feeling good about it. >> reporter: they're saying if the u.s. wants to make the case they are effectively throwing down the gauntlet saying show the evidence. i have been speaking to u.s. intelligence officials who said that the intelligence community is reluctant to show too much evidence. it could reveal sources and methods. this official did echo the reporting we have been having over the last couple of days that said this was a russian campaign. that vladimir putin certainly was involved, had a managerial role and that his role got more direct the more that the campaign seemed to be gaining traction. but like many of the officials who have been saying and making claims like this, this was yet another unnamed official who didn't want to go on camera.
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didn't want to go on the record. will it go beyond this? if it doesn't, russia feels it is sitting pretty. it can continue to dismiss these and make the challenge to the white house, to the cia saying if you've got it, prove it. >> at the same time hillary clinton last night. it was one of few public appearances held since the election. there is audio now of her talking for the first time that we know of about all this. let's listen. >> we have to recognize that as the latest reports made clear, vladimir putin himself directed the covert cyber attacks against our electoral system, against our democracy. apparently because he has a
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personal beef against me. he decided he would be president again. so in the fall of 2011 they had parliamentary elections which were so flawed, so illegitimate that it was embarrassing. i was your secretary of state. at least in those years we stood up for democracy and human rights. >> that was audio obtained by the "new york times." we have confirmed the accuracy and legitimacy of it at nbc news. an interesting take during this period of such group prices between the u.s. and russia over this and also transition. >> the political dynamic of it as well, the implications for the democratic party, andrea. one of the big problems here is that what hillary clinton risks doing is making the democrats look like they are sore losers.
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not only that but they haven't learned lessons from what happened in november. they haven't learned that her message didn't connect with voters. they haven't learned they alienated large swaths of the country. if they are going to rebuild the party and retain their numbers in congress and recapture the majority in the houses and eventually the white house, blaming vladimir putin is not the way to do that. i think politically it's risky. one thing voters don't like is a sore loser. really, that's what she risks sounding like here. >> at the same time john kerry we are told has called rex tillerson promising a smooth transition but the dispute with russia could complicate a confirmation battle. certainly putin would be front and center as this becomes more and more fraught. the other issue of bolton as a possible deputy.
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he's a controversial figure and people on the hill warning rex tillerson would be okay. the state department is welcoming him, the foreign service is pleased he's the least bad option they could get and brings standing. but john bolton is another issue. >> that's right. as you have just alluded to, the confirmation process is already going to be difficult for rex tillerson. why complicate the assembling of the state department team by throwing in john bolton, somebody who could not even get reconfirmed to be united nations ambassador in the bush administration. you have this extraordinary lining up of senior former bush administration officials who are drawing a line saying, no, we are not going to tolerate john bolton. donald trump, you shouldn't name him. those include condoleeza rice,
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bolton and the guy you will have on later, steven hadly. i would be curious what he has to say about whether or not john bolton would make a good addition to rex tillerson's state department. >> good question. richard engel, vladimir putin clearly enjoying the dissension he's sowed in any case as nbc news reported, the confirming reporting that, in fact, nothing happens in russia without putin. what the president will say today is likely what ben rhoads said to us yesterday. when they said october 7 this happened. it was done by russia and it was done at the highest levels of the russian government that's only one person. >> that's the presumption. that's what the intelligence community said then. that's what president obama seems to be saying now. this goes right to the top. things are seen differently from here in moscow.
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people in this country say that the u.s. has a long history of manipulating elections, of changing political processes. that it was american troops, after all, that rolled into iraq and removed the leader there. saddam hussein and brought him to the gallows. if that isn't political interference, what is? a spokeswoman for the foreign ministry posted on her facebook account today saying if the u.s. the dekraaiing political manipulation it should apologize to the former president of ukraine because the people of this country or the kremlin certainly believe the u.s. was active in toppling the previous government in ukraine. there is a long history there and a lot of political animosity that seems to be boiling up with now the u.s. saying that russia
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having a long history of manipulating the political processes in other countries. >> it was not only the u.s. but the rest of europe, the rest of the world, the sanctions against russia precisely because the former president was viewed as a puppet, a stooge of russia who had been plundering their country and was over turned by his own people. that just shows you the two perspectives in this. >> what happened around the time of the sochi olympics there was a street revolution. many believe that was a spontaneous street revolution. they feel it was a western backed plot to over throw a government friendly to moscow. >> as we move on, i want to share something with all of us. the dni, director of national intelligence issued a news
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release pointing out that the intelligence community has been chosen for the eighth straight year as one of the best places to work in government. the agencies have been viewed as the third best place for government workers to be. whether or not that remains true in the coming months and years remains to be seen. >> odd for a recruiting announcement. >> thank you to the work force after all they have been through and are going through. thank you very much. we are pleased to be joined by steve steve inski who interv the president. want to play more of the interview you had with president obama. his first extensive comments on this. >> the irony of this is for most of my presidency there's been a pretty sizable wing of the republican party that has consistently criticized me for not being tough enough on
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russia. some of those folks during the campaign endorsed donald trump despite the fact that a central tenet of his foreign policy is we shouldn't be so tough on russia. >> president obama now facing questions from the rest of the press corps. you have surely set the table. what are your impressions of how he's wrestling with this, how much he can say. it's covert. he doesn't want to disclose what they are about to do or seem to be pushed around by vladimir putin as he hands off to the next president. >> yeah. he's being careful about what he says dauntd say. there is a smackdown here of vladimir putin who is scorned as someone who crushed human rights, democracy and frustrated aims around the world. there is a smackdown of the new wing of the republican party which followed president-elect trump in saying they have a positive view of putin.
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but the president is careful about what exactly he says about the president-elect. he supports his spokesman josh earnest who said it was obvious donald trump knew what was going on during the campaign. he said essentially the same theng, president obama did in the interview. he didn't claim there was collusion between the president-elect and russia, for example. he is being careful about that. he didn't endorse the reported cia finding that moscow's goal was to elect donald trump. he's waiting for the formal and u.s. intelligence report. maybe waiting longer before he ever says specifically that. he is insisting that trump knew what was going on. he's insisting the hack of the dnc and other targets affected the election. at the same time he's insisting he's not challenging the legitimacy of the election. he's saying there is a national security problem here. there is a new game in the way the world is dealing with
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questions of propaganda, covert operations which as the president said have been turbo charged by the internet. there is a problem here, he's saying. >> the trump people at least in the initial days of this have been choosing to focus on the accusation that this is all about trying to delegitimize donald trump and taking offense at that, not the bigger issue of, hey, vladimir putin, according to the intelligence community, personally tried to destabilize america whether it was to elect donald trump or defeat hillary clinton. it was to mess around with our election process and make us look weak in the world. >> when you look at his statements which have largely on on fwiter the president-elect hasn't quite said this is a false accusation. he said democrats are out to get me. this morning the interview played on a cable network at 6:00 a.m. by 6:09 trump was tweeting.
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the president-elect was tweeting again observing one of the things that came out of the dnc hack was the revelation that democrats had been feeding debate questions to hillary clinton during the primaries. he's effectively saying if you think i benefitted from russian cheating she benefitted, too. that's what's said there. it is avoiding the larger issue. we don't truly know what the president-elect will do or say on this issue once the power is his. >> steve inskeep, thank you very much for sharing with us. we appreciate it. >> glad to be here. we have breaking news from the south china sea where the pentagon said a chinese navy ship stole a u.s. naval drone, an unmanned drone from international waters on thursday. the pentagon claims it was from international waters. at the time of the incident the drone was collecting data during a routine survey off the coast of the philippines and was being
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retrieved by a u.s. naval ship. a nearby chinese ship swooped in to grab turned water drone. the issue is being addressed through diplomatic channels. coming up, the cyber strike. what options does president obama have to retaliate against russian hackers? former national security adviser steven hadly joins us. so why are you still putting up with complicated cash back cards? some cards limit where you earn bonus cash back to places they choose... then they change those places every few months. quicksilver keeps it simple. with quicksilver you always earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase, everywhere. 'tis the season for simple. what's in your wallet?
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can't the world be my noodles and butter? get your mind out of the gutter. mornings are for coffee and contemplation. that was a really profound observation. you got a mean case of the detox blues. don't start a war you know you're going to lose. finally you can now find all of netflix in the same place as all your other entertainment. on xfinity x1. mr. putin is aware of my feelings on this. we have been working hard to make sure what we do is proportional. that what we do is meaningful. >> former bush national security
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adviser steven hadly. some will be seen, some won't be seen. what kind of arsenal do we have? >> it's curious. is he thinking about retaliating to a cyber attack in cyberspace in some way. we were concerned and wanted to send a message to russia and deter this behavior means we should have done it before not after the election. second the president called for a review. will it wait for the results to be in before he does whatever retaliation he's going to do. then the question is what is the form of the retaliation and the other question is will he
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retaliate on the eve of the new president taking over and posing a problem for the new president. will he talk to the president-elect before he does this? >> there is a written understanding that unless it is an immediate threat you don't do something right before january 20. that would impact the president-elect, especially in this case, but the president-elect has a different view of it all. >> exactly right. president obama to his credit said he wants a smooth transition. he's had a number of conversations with president-elect trump. he wants to hand him a situation as good as he can. i think that's laudable and the question is he on his way out of office to the russians consistent with that approach. there have been a couple of incidents attributed to the
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ukraines that, who knows, could have been us. another approach is vladimir putin's holdings. he could be one of the richest men in the world. >> there are lots of things you can do. the russians are doing a lot of things around the world. the russians are backing that appear to be think tanks, media but are pretty much instruments of. i talked to a lot of people at the state department who were enthusiastic about rex tillerson. there are a lot of questions
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being raised about him going against the wishes of the state department. going to st. petersburg, opposing the ukranian sanctions. jim baker said yesterday your view is where you are sitting and you can change. you know what i mean. now he'll be representing the united states if confirmed. his world view has been for 40 years in the energy world and not in the world of human rights and soft diplomacy. >> that's true. that's a world he has to learn. if you look at what he's done in noncorporate life in terms of the charitable activities and the like this is a broad gauge man. he's represented exxon mobil. that allowed him to do deals in some of the most difficult markets in the world since oil is in places that are unstable.
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he has international contacts. that will be useful to president-elect trump. but this man is a patriot, a man of integrity. he's been representing exxon mobil. if he's confirmed at secretary of state he'll represent let's let him have the opportunity to face the senators, answer the questions. and people can judge after that. >> john bolton, the former u.n. ambassador. he was the under secretary for nonproliferation. in your administration you were national security adviser. he's not an easy character. as deputy would he make it more complicated for rex tillerson to be confirmed? >> i don't think so. john is a friend. he's a very smart guy. i worked with him effectively in
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the bush administration. i think he should be considered as deputy secretary of state. he has a blunt, direct style that's not to everybody's tastes. he definitely should be considered. there are other names floated. there are a number of people who could do this job. i think what mr. tils nelerson s is. >> there are reports that john bolton knows the building but doesn't have the respect of the foreign service. how important is it -- >> i don't know that to be true. >> i'm talking about the reporting from the past couple of days. how important is it for tillerson to have someone he wants who he can trust? i don't know that part personally. the reporting that he doesn't want john bolton. >> this is a conversation that mr. tillerson will have with mr. trump.
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the goal to get somebody that has both the confidence of the secretary of state designate and there are a number of folks who can fit that bill. finally the intent to nominate david friedman has set off a firestorm within the jewish community. he's a very strong supporter of expanded settlements, very much to the hard right in israeli politics. and if at a recent conference i attended it's been reported though it was an off the record session it was reported in the israeli press that he actually criticized a prominent moderate jewish american group saying they don't represent jews and he would not meet with them if he were the ambassador. this is another case of the trump transition taking someone who is very controversial and injecting them into the middle east situation. >> well, first i heard the
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reports. i was not at that conference. i have not met this man. i don't know his views. one thing we have to recognize is that mr. trump was elected at the head of a populist movement or political insurgency. we have had them over the country's history. i don't think we have had one that captured the presidency. when that happens particularly when campaigning on a platform that suggests a lot of foreign policy the united states has been misdirected and a lot of the elites that were associated with the policies. you're going to see instances where the new team will want to go in a new direction. there will again be confirmation hearings, a debate about this and the senate will have an opportunity to work its will. you're going to see with the result of this kind of campaign and the result of the election probably more discontinuities in
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foreign policy than what's usually the case between the administration which is a fair amount of continuity and consistency. >> rejection not just of the obama years but an objection of the bush years. >> i think every administration since i can remember said that the settlement -- those settlements were illegal. >> thank you very much. great to see you. >> nice to be here. >> coming up, the president-elect tweets his latest reaction to the russian hacking. you're watching "andrea mitchell reports" on msnbc. [burke] at farmers, we've seen almost everything,
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community is saying, the blaming of russia. our own reporting at nbc. do you accept that? do you think president-elect trump accepts russia's involvement in this and vladimir putin's involvement? >> i said to brian williams once we have more details that the facts are incontrovertible he won't be praising behavior like that. talked about how to prevent these cyber attacks, stop isis from using the internet as an instrument for terror. so we are dead set against this stuff. i have said it repeatedly. the president-elect is probably a little bit miffed at the notion that someone will try to delegitimize an historic
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election which is one really the american people brought forth as a message to washington that washington needs a change and an entrepreneurial disruption. i think the notion that the hacking is legitimizing the election is definitely not true. the president-elect through his tweets is messaging that. if you tell me after more intelligence briefings and more understanding from the intelligence community that this is 100% true, you could be sure that there will be a denunciation by the new administration about these acts. i'm not sure how we could be more clear about that. >> you're very clear about it. i saw the interview with brian williams. one reason i want to talk to you. it was an interesting contrast, frankly, with the things donald trump has been saying. he was briefed before the election and has been briefed since. i was told that's part of the brief. he's been critical of the cia,
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dismissive about the cia briefings. the dnc dave to the debate. so that's another aspect of the dnc hack. it has nothing to do with the john podesta hack and wikileaks. we are mixing things up here and taking a tangent. >> this has to be a question the viewers have. the central intelligence agency how is it possible someone inside the cia leaked this information as a journalist. we have not yet identified the source where it's coming from. what could be happening and you may disagree it might be politically motivated.
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there could be somebody that's a democrat that could be leaking the information in an effort to delegitimize the election. that's where -- >> i think- >> let me finish. >> sure. >> the president-elect is tweeting, it was obviously from the hacking. you saw the unfairness and the rigging of the system as a result of the e-mails being exposed. go ahead, andrea. i'm sorry. >> i was going to say that i'm going back to the october 7 declaration by clapper and rogers that, yes, there was a breach from russia at the highest levels. this is the intelligence community. trying to move on -- >> well, julian assange is refuting that. we know that. >> well, that's julian assange. >> he didn't get the information from russia. but you have to understand something and i said it to brian and i will say it to you.
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the president-elect is working super hard on the transition and selection process. we were talking about rex tillerson and the process there. we are working super hard to lay it out for the american people. he's not yet the president. i would say to the american people and i would say to you let's wait for more information until we get the cabinet settled which is his apriori now. we'll have time if everything that's being said is 100% true we'll have time to denounce it. the american people need to know whether it's rex tillerson, president trump. they are for the american people. we are certainly going to defend the interests of our country, the interests of our businesses. and we are going to really focus on middle class families and working class families. i get why this is news. i understand why the president-elect is miffed by it. he's saying, we won fair and square.
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it didn't have an impact in terms of the victory. that's why you are seeing these tweets. >> understood and the president has now said they are going to retaliate either overtly or covertly. he's only president 34 more days. does donald trump want him to not do anything in the final month on such an important issue and let trump take over? >> here is the good news for the american people. the relationship between the current president and the president-elect is fantastic. they get along well. my guess is if there is a retaliation the president-elect will know about it. he'll offer advice as to what that should be and the measure of it. this is another great thing about the democracy where we
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have people that have the best interests of the american people. you share that love. if we are going to retaliate and president obama will do that, my guess is he'll talk to president-elect trump about it. i'm sure the response will be measured and appropriate to what's going on. >> thank you very much. we appreciate your clarifying this for us. it's important. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back.
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we need to be ready for my name's scott strenfel and r i'm a meteorologist at pg&e. we make sure that our crews as well as our customers are prepared to how weather may impact their energy. so every single day we're monitoring the weather, and when storm events arise our forecast get crews out ahead of the storm to minimize any outages. during storm season we want our customers to be ready and stay safe. learn how you can be prepared at together, we're building a better california. donald trump spent thursday night in hershey, pennsylvania taking swings at josh earnest instead of vladimir putin over russian hacking. joining me is bill crystal editor at large for the weekly standard. a lot going on. >> i thought mr. scaramucci said the president-elect is on great
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terms with the president and the president-elect is continuing to enjoy to fight the political campaign. >> he seems comfortable in the rallies. how how big a deal is the russian hacking and are we taking it seriously enough? did president obama wait too long to be out front about it? >> i have been a critic of president obama's policies from the beginning. a lot more flexibility after the election. the trust in letting russia take syria and do the terrible things they are doing there, et cetera. trump made light of questions about cyber espionage or cyber
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warfare. this latest thing, we don't know yet. it's hard to tell. is it hard? are we pretending we don't think putin is involved in these for a couple of years? not just with us but other countries. is it that hard to denounce putin generally while saying as president-elect he doesn't have the ability to know. he's so concerned there may not be a cloud on his election. he hates the delegitimizing. most people aren't. i was an anti-trump guy. it's a legitimate victory, period. can he say putin should not get involved in the elections and a russian government seems to have intended to affect our election and steal our secrets. is that hard to denounce? >> julian assange did it to a cut out. they wouldn't say, here is a
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package from moscow but he's hardly a validator of it being independently obtained. >> and to see conservative journalists and fox tv types. sean hannity has assange on every few days. that's depressing. i'm proud to have been a part of the republican party for years. the criticism in the case of the bush administration, certainly the obama administration has been correct. a lot of people agree romney is right that it's a geopolitical threat. now trump is corrupting the conservative movement. it's one thing to say i don't want to get involved or i think rex tillerson might be a good secretary of state. why make excuses for putin?
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that's distressing. it is one thing to say -- and that's the most distressing thing about what trump has done so far. >> do you have concerns about someone this place to putin? >> he's a good guy. let's see how he does in the hearing. he had one set of priorities when he was head of exxon mobil. another as secretary of state. they don't stop there. why is it so bad he got the order of friendship from russia which if you look at the other list of people who got it isn't a good list to be on. there is a slippery slope. it really is. bad for the country. bad to the degree donald trump encouraged it and doesn't seem to be backing off much. >> case in point. we now have a potential incident in the south china sea.
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what if u.s. intelligence said we were in international waters and the chinese say nobody can believe u.s. intelligence, look what donald trump says. >> in the transitions you try not to let there be daylight between the president-elect and the president. i remember in 1992 when i was part of the outgoing transition from the trump white house. i think the bush administration, president obama personally has performed well. i think you're right. he's unaware of the danger, the actual real world danger that could be done if a foreign government thinks there is a chance to exploit what trump's domestic enmities gel sis and unhappiness and get away with something we couldn't otherwise
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get away with. >> how about over the next couple of hours? he has a news conference and we'll be there.
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why pause a spontaneous moment? cialis for daily use treats ed and the urinary symptoms of bph. tell your doctor about your medicines, and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain, or adempas® for pulmonary hypertension, as this may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. do not drink alcohol in excess. to avoid long-term injury, get medical help right away for an erection lasting more than four hours.
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if you have a sudden decrease or loss of hearing or vision, or an allergic reaction, stop taking cialis and get medical help right away. ask your doctor about cialis.
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in north carolina the legislature is trying to strip the newly incoming democratic governor of power. after a tightly contested election where he defeated the incumbent republican and now roy cooper the current attorney general says he'll sue the legislature if it goes ahead with radical changes. >> most people might think this is a power grab but it is more ominous. if i believe that laws passed by the legislature hurt working families and are unconstitutional, they will see me in court.
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>> final votes on the most controversial bills are scheduled for today. we'll update you on that story throughout the day. we'll be right back. (chuckle) ( ♪ ) come on, dad. ( ♪ )
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a direct appeal to first lady michelle obama from a 7-year-old and her mother trapped in east aleppo. in a video obtained exclusively by nbc news. watch. >> hello, mrs. obama. please help us. >> i talk to you as a mother. i know that you have two beautiful daughters. i have children. i am imploring you to help us. >> since september, the twitter posts have gone viral as she broadcasts the horrors of war. today, bana tweeted please save
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us now. thousands are trapped as pro government forces move to take control of the city. we'll follow the latest developments from the region. there is no typical day. there is nothing typical about making movies. i'm victoria alonso and i'm an executive producer... marvel studios. we are very much hands-on producers. if my office... ...becomes a plane or an airport the surface pro's perfect. fast and portable but also light. you don't do this 14 hours a day, 7 days a week for... ...decades iyou don't feel it in your heart. listen, i know my super power is to not ever sleep. that's it. that's the only super power i have. ♪ everything your family touches sticks with them. make sure the germs they bring home don't stick around. use clorox disinfecting products. because no one kills germs better than clorox. but i keep it growing by making every dollar count. that's why i have the spark cash card from capital one. with it, i earn unlimited 2% cash back on
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that does it on a busy day here. follow us online, on facebook and on twitter. we'll be back with the president's news conference. katy tur is next on msnbc. >> hi, andrea. hope you're doing well. good afternoon. i'm katy tur. this hour on msnbc we are ramping up coverage of president obama's final news conference of the year which is expect ed to begin in the next hour. reporters will ask questions on a wide ranging set of topics including the russian hack. and today president-elect trump's controversial new pick to ambassador to israel. david friedman compared liberal jews to nazi collaborators. and msnbc's exclusive interview with the 7-year-old syrian girl
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who gained an international following on twitter pleading for help as investigations out of aleppo are thrown into chaos. >> i'm afraid they kill us. let's start with politics and the team of reporters. chris jansing is at the white house briefing room. with me are hans nichols and msnbc political correspondent kasie hunt. chris, let's start with you. will president obama talk about this russian hack? if so, what do we expect him to say? >> well, i think the question will be very pointed and it will be what are you going to do about it? it's clear from everything we have heard from this administration including from the president himself he's ready to take action. we heard from hillary clinton. apparently last night according to the "new york times" talking to donors saying this was an attempt to undermine our democracy. here's a little more of