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tv   The Beat With Ari Melber  MSNBC  October 2, 2019 3:00pm-4:00pm PDT

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interesting aspect of the conversation, i said to him, how would you be with the idea of the white house releasing rough transcripts of your conversations with president trump? and he said look, i will be relaxed about that and even suggested the kremlin had offered to help the white house release transcripts of the conversations in helsinki. so we will see if that happens. >> yes, we shall see. keir simmons, great work in moscow. thank you for getting up for work so early in the morning, let alone late. that's all we have for tonight. we will be back with more "mpt daily" tomorrow. we're late. my apologies to ari. >> no apology necessary. we begin with breaking news. democrats are on fire, just out of a briefing by president trump, with propaganda aimed at
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diversing this campaign foe. and mike pompeo admits he was on the call and as congress showed today starkly than ever how things are changing, with this scene. speaker pelosi you see walking out to the lectern showing she's in this fight. she's in the lead. she's making clear who the democrats are positioning as a top prosecutor in any case against president trump, intelligence chairman adam schiff. it's his committee who did was is many other democrats have not to date and it was schiff who joined pelosi in this unified front today. >> we do place ourselves in an urgency on the threat to the constitution. there any effort by the secretary or the president or by anyone else to interfere will be considered as evidence of obstruction. >> we see the actions of this president being an assault on the constitution. we have no choice put to go forward. >> we're not fooling around
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here. >> a stack warning to a president who's long claimed he welcomes impeachment, it would help him politically. today the president did not seem to be celebrating the march towards this as some kind of political boost. he wasn't taunting house democrats to finish the job, which is what someone would say if they wanted to be impeached. no. the president attacked chairman schiff and advocated -- i say this explicitly, he advocated two separate crimes, the advocacy of exposing the bhb and the advocacy of treason of the member of the opposition party. >> we don't call it shifty-shift for nothing. he's a shifty, dishonest guy. he made up my conversation. he actually made it up. it should be criminal. it should be treasonist. frankly, they should look at him for treason. this country has to find out who that person was because that person is a spy. you people should be ashamed of
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yourself. i think i answered most of your questions. >> he did not answer most of the questions. in fact, in a press conference today a wire reporter in the room confronted the president over ducking the core question of whether or not donald trump saw illegal help to target joe biden. more evidence of the fact we noted on this show since this story broke open, the president has gone from two years of no collusion to being in public pro-collusion, admitting that was the request on the ukraine call and denying opportunities to deny it. today he tried to deny he did not request that collusion. >> look, biden and his son are stonecold crooked and you know it. >> welcome to 2020. trump insists anyone running against him is crooked while speaker pelosi says the real news here is donald trump is scared. >> i think the president knows
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the argument that can be made against him and he's scared and so he's trying to divert attention from that to standing in the way of legislation. >> that's just some of the top news on this huge story right now. we haven't even gotten to joe biden's new response or the pressure on giuliani to say if he is even donald trump's lawyer or some trump cabinet officials like rick perry who say they will be more cooperative with congress than other parts of trump's government. those are stories breaking today as well as this "the new york times" report crossing the wire, with new details on the lengths the whistle-blower went to get incriminating information to congress. let's take a moment to mark where we are in this story right now. ukraine scandal has clearly upended the trump administration, unlying anything we've seen since the appointment of special counsel robert mueller. the democrats are now marching towards something pelosi had long resisted, and i've got to tell you as we try to make sense out of all of this, just
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watching her today, it's clear a vote on impeaching trump looks more likely. pelosi is narrowing the options of any kind of d.c. off-ramp when she publicly names the president an urgent threat to the constitution and when her caucus is prepping these new impeachment subpoenas from three different committees today and setting new deadlines for the end of this week. and then there is the president's response. you need to know this. he's not denying the core evidence that he sought foreign help to try to criminally take out a domestic rival. he stands accused of abusing his power to target domestic opponents and responds by threatening to target his domestic opponents. he we repeat that because we're in grave territory. one of the most consequential things the president is now doing is that he faces potential impeachment for criminally targeting a top domestic rival, joe biden, and he's responding right now today by threatening to criminally target another domestic rival, adam schiff, who, of course, is leading one
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of the probes into trump targeting biden. this is not a drill. this is a test in real time right now of our constitutional system of government. remember, many thought the test would come during the mueller probe because trump ousted two fbi directors and attempted to obstruct the probe. but here's the thing about why that went down differently. it's something that you know as a news viewer about bob mueller. he sticks to the book. he doesn't lean into testing our system of government. he didn't demand the president sit for an interview and he didn't recommend impeachment as other prosecutors investigating presidents have done. so that test, it never came. and legal experts say that was a mark of fairness and restraint by mueller. but the ukraine call notes show donald trump didn't see it that way. we know from his own white house, he told the ukraine prime minister the day after mueller testified that mueller gave a, quote, incompetent in-court performance. trump didn't wait a week or
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month. it was the very next day that he hatched this new collusion plot. and unlike mueller, whatever you think of donald trump, whether you like him or not, and he has his fans, many of them across the country, something we know about him and people agree on, donald trump does lean on testing the system of government. he's doing it right now. and that makes what comes next very, very significant. i turn now to democratic congresswoman jane, ed kirschner and ed thompson. congresswoman, when you see the president blatantly respond to accusations he targeted domestic rivals with the targeting of other domestic rivals including your colleague adam schiff, do you see this as approaching a constitutional crisis? >> not only that but i actually worry when the president targets somebody that adam schiff has gotten death threats.
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he puts people in danger, including potentially the whistle-blower who he certainly wants to disclose and disclaim. so it's -- on many fronts it is really dangerous and serious. ari, when you were going through it, it's not only trying to undercut -- >> wait, i will let you continue. just on the news of that reference you made, is that something you learned from congressman schiff or his staff themselves? >> i absolutely heard it from -- yes. not from adam directly but i know that is actually a fact, that he has received death threats. this isn't the first time when the president has targeted people, that that's the outcome of that. >> i ask you that because you know we're dealing with very serious matters. the congressman made reference to it as well. so take a listen to how he viewed the president's incitement of violence today.
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>> let's not makeness my take here. the president wants to make this all about the whistle-blower and suggest people that come forward with evidence of his wrongdoing are somehow treasonist and should be treated as traders and supplies. this is a blatant effort to intimidate witnesses and incitement to violence. >> congresswoman? >> yes, the president does that. he doesn't hesitate to do that. the kind of tweets that he put out time after time today, there were, i don't know if there were quite a dozen of them, but it seemed like that, just degrading and using profane language, and going after people. my hope is that the american people look at that and say, this is the way the president of the united states talks? and this is the kind of activity
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he would encourage going after people? and i think it is right to say he insights violence. after all, he said that it could be a civil war if he were impeached. what is he talking about? and traitors and spies. you know what happens to them. clearly he was talking about capital murder. >> glenn? >> ari, i loved your opening segment because you hit the nail right on the head and called out what's going on here. the president being accused of criminally targeting opponents is defending himself. by criminally targeting opponents. if i could riff on that for a minute -- >> sure. >> -- he is also, i believe, not just normalizing crime but he's trying to convert confessions to ex-cull pagss. when he in the first instance commits i think what we all recognize as the mother of all campaign finance violations by
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holding hostage congressionally appropriated funds that are designed and destined to go to ukraine to protect ukraine from unlawful russian aggression, he wrongfully uses it as a bargaining chip and says, oh, i know this money is supposed to go to you. i know you want to buy more javelin missiles to protect yourself and your people but i have a favor i need though. and then he he goes on tv, ari, and he brags about how that confession is a perfect conversation and a beautiful conversation. let me just finish up by saying, it really is to take his hypothetical as if he goes out on to fifth avenue, shoots somebody and then brags that, oh, this was a perfect shooting. got him right through the heart. didn't even suffer. this was a perfect, beautiful shooting on fifth avenue. he's turned everything on its head. >> you both lay it out and the seriousness of it.
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i want to play a moment here, mark, for you when you think about what is being done through what is left of the president's exposure to investigative questioning. i mentioned mueller didn't question him. they've shut down a lot of the briefings. he only does certain types of media but there's still a system. you see in the questions and answers he will not even deny what is, according to democrats, a potentially impeachable defense. take a look. >> the question, sir, is what did you want president zelensky to do about vice president biden and his son hunter? >> are you talking to me? >> yeah, this is the followup of what i just asked you, sir. >> listen, are you ready? we have the president of finland asking a question. i've given you a long answer. let this gentleman ask a question. don't be rude. >> i don't want to be rude. i ywant you to have a chance to answer everything. >> i answered everything. it's a whole hoax.
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you know who's playing into the hoax? people like you. >> as mentioned, he used to say no collusion. what does it tell you for this time for his strategy, he's not going that far? >> unfortunately, he felt vindicated by mueller and got some notion what he did, which many of us still think was some form of collusion, was okay so he could do the same thing in this ukraine scenario. he is looking more and more like richard nixon, but at least nixon's excuse was that he was drunk a lot of the times. trump doesn't even drink. the other thing he said in the press conference was very important, what we got is a readout and what we say is a summary of the call, which he admitted to. but today he said the great stenographers, word for word, comma for comma, so is there a verbatim transcript or recording of this call or others? he's admitted to this collusion. but if you cop to a crime like
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this one, and glenn's a prosecutor so he knows this better than me, if you cop to one thing, what you are copping to might be something worse. so is he admitting there's a transcript or audio of this full call, if not other calls, where he's carrying out some of the same behavior or worse? and that further makes it -- it exposes him in the ongoing investigation. sure, he's scared. i will say one other thing too. i will go out on a limb and say while it may not look like republican officials will say as they did with nixon and turn on him, let's be clear, this is a man who took over a party, and many of them resented him at first. he wasn't the person chosen to be their nominee. he took over the party, ran down all of them, dozen or more candidates and been running it ever since. some of these republican elected officials, including senators, have their own political ambition, ari. so if it gets too tight, they
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may back away from him themselves. >> which is why we're in a different place than we were two weeks ago. i wouldn't have predicted this. i'm not in that business. i don't know if any of our expert panelists would have known because the facts evolved. what the senate may or may not do later is up to the senate. congresswoman, we began the broadcast talking about the test of the system. you mentioned that you know on good authority your assertion congressman schiff faced death threats. my question to you on the larger questions facing this president and speaker pelosi who's out of work today while you all are technically in recess is do you see anything donald trump is doing now as a potential for additional articles of impeachment, if he's threatening, as you say, members of congress with prosecution if he's contributing as congressman schiff says to inciting violence? could that itself add to the list? >> it could. but don't you, ari, want to know what are the other conversations in that secret -- where they
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were hidden on a server, conversations you probably had with vladimir putin, maybe other foreign leaders where he was trying to make similar deals? clearly this conversation was one that worried his -- the people around him enough that they wanted to squirrel away, they wanted to hide, they wanted to cover up this conversation. we think that this server has a lot of others, and i think we need to see them and this will just reinforce the notion that the -- that donald trump will sacrifice our national security in order to go after an opponent, and that he will threaten any opponent who questions him. and i think all of those are impeachable offenses. >> congressman cha kowske, thank you. glenn and mark, thank you for joining me. we have a lot more on the show including news that just crossed the wire since i came on the
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air. "the washington post" about this story about donald trump directly involving mike pence in the ukraine scandal. pence's aide pushing back. was he planning for impeachment? mike pompeo admitting he was on the ukraine call. we have a special guest, classifies the call for two different presidents and a lot of new attacks. plus, a lot of you reacted to the interview we had with michael moore and some of his provocative statements about 2020. >> joe biden's this year's hillary. joe biden's not going to excite the base to get out there and vote. >> joe biden making news with his own comments. i'm ari melber. you're watching "the beat." you can never seem to get anywhere. that's why dell technologies created unified workspace, powered by vmware. ♪ a revolutionary solution that lets you deploy, manage, support
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washington post," president trump used -- that's the word in "the post" article vice president pence in the ukraine plot. now aides to pence are pushing back within this story saying he wasn't in on the incriminating part. but here's the reporting, donald trump repeatedly involved and used pence to exert pressure, today pence not to attend the inauguration of the new ukrainian president. this is raising a ton of questions not only for pence but as if donald trump was planning ahead to try to spread around the guilt if you look at the story that way. meanwhile secretary of state pompeo denied he knew anything about the collusion call with ukraine but now a different story. >> what do you know about those
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conversations? >> so you just gave me a report about a whistle-blower complaint, none of which i have seen. >> mr. secretary, do you have any reports you're on the july 25th call with president zelensky? >> as for was i on the phone call, i was on the phone call. the phone call was in the context of now i have been secretary of state for coming on a year and a half. >> three different stories in three days and now this reuters reporting, democrats were contacted by lawmakers and told not to start to their own state department counsel, warning pompeo to, quote, stop intimidating witnesses for trump and any attempt to intimidate witnesses from talking to congress they say is illegal and will be evidence of the impeachment questioning.
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joining us, classifying calls for two presidents now and saying how it's being done under president trump is quite alarming. natasha, a lot of stories breaking right now. i wonder what you think of "the washington post" detailing what looks like a deliberate and long-term effort by president trump to involve mike pence in this plot. at one point the story, we just just got broke in our hour, literally said the president, quote, used pence to tell the ukraine prime minister u.s. aid was being withheld while demanding more aggressive action. >> yeah, ari, it was always pretty unbelievable to think the vice president would have no knowledge of what was going on internally. and now what we're learning from "the washington post" is one of his top aides was actually on that july 25th call as well as secretary of state, of course,
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mpz mp mike pompeo. when vice president pence went to poland and met with president zelensky, we had reported the aid wassing held from ukraine. it was reported first by politico, actually, the president told his national security team to essentially hold up this $250 million security assistance aid to ukraine. we didn't know exactly why at that moment it was happening, but it was certainly the backdrop of pence's meeting with zelensky. and the big question, of course, that everyone had is mike pence going to bring this up with zelensky? is this because of what had been on in the background up until that point, which was all of giuliani's efforts to dig up dirt on biden? we never really got a full comprehensive readout of their meeting together except for the press conference that mike pence gave with zelensky, in which he said we fully support ukraine, et cetera, et cetera. >> what would be donald trump's motivation to try to get pence
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directly involved in this? >> yeah, that's a good question. it's possible that he wanted to make it seem like it wasn't just him, it wasn't just his initiative, his own desire to essentially blackmail the ukrainians into giving him this dirt on a political rival. but it's also just i think a matter of process that mike pence, his aides would be on this call and potentially he just got sucked into this like so many other officials in the white house. >> kelly, do you see this as believable that mike pence's aids with where are on a call that set off alarm bells in the white house that led to abuse of the security system as you have written about, that there was white house counsel involved, that rudy giuliani was popping up in "the new york times" and elsewhere talking about ukraine and mike pence was just laser-focused and out of the loop on everything? >> well, it's not unusual for various national security council staff and office of the
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vice president's staff to participate listening in on these phone calls. that is not unusual. what is unusual is how this call was handled, how the records of this call were handled and that is very abnormal from that process. >> what i'm asking is do you think it's believable mike pence didn't know anything about it? why have your aide on the call and "the post" article says in the next day's daily briefing he would have a readout of the call and rudy giuliani's running around town and mike pence doesn't know anything. >> it's very unlikely if he had an aide on the call, the vice president was not aware of the content of the call. >> spoken with precision. let me give you a chance to tell us a little bit about what you've been writing about. this pence story is blowing up. it's fascinating, especially in the context of impeachment. but you have given us a little broader look how this stuff works and you say it's not working in the trump administration. explain. >> i think it's more important for the american people to understand the rules of classification and systems to protect that classification serve only to protect the
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national security interest of the united states. they're not there to protect the president from embarrassing information, politically embarrassing information and certainly they're not there to protect criminal wrongdoing. so the way this call was handled to me was raising a ton of alarm bells. first of all, these calls are normally classified at levels no more than secret i think is what most foreign calls are classified at. and certainly not at the code word top-secret level which is a system and level of classification for our most, most secret intelligence program. so it tells me that -- it was clear the national security council or national security adviser, maybe white house lawyers, decided this call's content was sensitive enough that they didn't want it to get out, they tried to bury it on this separate server. >> you're basically saying they were abusing normal rules and that makes it more evidence of a cover-up? >> yes. there are ways to restrict presidential phone calls.
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they're actually not widely distributed in the first place. the national security adviser could have restricted where it was sent to, whether the state department got copies, et cetera et cetera. there was no national security reason that i can come up with to put it on this very, very secure separate server. >> it's really interesting to get your expertise on this as someone who's been there, done it and giving us your straight, nonpartisan take. before we go, natasha, we did that and the breaking news on mike pence. do you have time to discuss vladimir putin's chilling stand-up act? do you have that time for us? >> i do. >> take a look. >> is russia as robert mueller alleged attempting to influence the 2020 elections in the united states? >> translator: i'll tell you in a secret, yes, we're definitely intervening so it's a secret to everybody can laugh.
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so go big. but don't tell anyone, please. please don't tell anyplace. >> it's real. your thoughts, natasha? >> at least he's honest. this is completely putin's m.o. he's a master troll. and i think that's part of the reason why he gets along with our president so well. neither of them takes anything that the u.s. intelligence community says seriously and especially when it comes to russia's interference in the 2016 election. it doesn't seem as though putin has gotten any kind of real message from president trump to deter him from doing it again in 2020 and beyond. >> and these are stories you have been crossing both from russia to ukraine to mueller to putin responding to all of that. so it's great to get your expertise as well. natasha bertrand, nagda, thank you both. i will put in our shortest break on "the beat," 30 seconds, and then back with the breaking news rocking the white house. and why mike pence's aides are
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suddenly talking. what's up with your... partner? not again. limu that's your reflection. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ breaking news this hour, right now from "the washington post" -- and it looks like an impeachment-related blockbuster. an apparent effort by president trump to directly involve and to quote "the post" use vice president in this exposed plot to pressure ukraine to target joe biden. the report includes pence's aides saying they didn't know what trump was up to but there
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were instructions to pence to inform ukraine this key reform was being withheld and calling for tough anti-corruption efforts. to what pence's aides are telling, they say he didn't know they were troling for dirt on joe biden. but a pence aide was also on the call where all of that was made clear. donald trump's tweets have turned quite menacing, calling the impeachment inquiry a coup, reference to military takeovers, using profanity i will not say and accusing adam schiff of maybe treason. >> i saw schiff trying to go -- i call him shifty-shift. we don't call him shifty schiff for nothing. he's a shifty, dishonest guy. there's an expression, he couldn't carry his blank strap. i won't say it because they will say it's so terrible to say. but that guy couldn't carry his blank strap. >> i'm joined by a former speechwriter in the bush white
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house david frum and key eye on the trump white house, "trumpocracy: the corruption of the american public." david thank you for joining me. this is a news cycle where i want to hear what you're thinking. i assume you had a chance to take a look at this "washington post" report. your take on what it means. >> two things, first, it's so weird vice president pence did not know the trumps were seeking dirt on the bidens because people reading our paper know that since march. but the fiemt most terrible smoking gun clue where the basic outcome has been known for months and indeed donald trump is not so reckless to let us vice president remain clear. it's going to be very important to president trump in this harrowing circumstance facing him to make sure that the vice president is as dirty as possible to make sure that their interests are aligned, as they say. >> look, let's let you build on that point. viewers know i have had mark
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lawsuiter from the trump on, trump officials back on, they will say you're being unfair and getting ahead of the facts. i ask you what facts and evidence do you have for the view that donald trump may have had knowledge what he was dock is wrong, tonight except anyone might say it disqualifies him, he wanted to spread it around and disqualify others. >> one of the thing that's happened in the trump administration that none of us are quite used to is the complete absence of subterfuge. normally when people take bribes in government, they meet in underground parking lots, look around, move back and forth and make sure the police are not looking. when donald trump wants a bribe, he opens a hotel on pennsylvania avenue, rolls a red carpet down the street and puts his name in big brass on the front door and welcomes the world. and we who are used to people doing wrong things with some tinge of guilt are unready to deal with somebody who does it
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so flagrantly. so when donald trump has been pressing ukraine to give him assistance to pursue this crazy theory he has seth rich was the real hacker and not the russian state, he's been doing that in public. he's been doing that for two years. so what we didn't know is that he directly scud the president of ukraine to do this. we know that because of a transcript or summary from his own white house. we have the confession. people are now -- people around trump are now saying, well, gee, we don't know the protocol for obtaining the confession met every single regulatory rule we would like to compose but the confession is there. >> you lay that out clearly. i appreciate that. david, i wonder what you think of whether we're seeing the beginning of a new -- we're familiar especially with papers like "the post" and "the times," the way they report out things, friday night, late stories. i wonder whether we're getting into a new chapter, which is reporting that relates to people in hike places in washington
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discussing the prospect of a senate trial of the president. because this to me reads like an impeachment-style story, not just a foreign policy story or mueller probe story. it reads like that. and to your point, i pressed you a little bit to back yourself up. now i have evidence we pulled in our archive that does agree with part of your theory, the president, before the story broke this hour, before people were talking about does pence have the same ukraine problem the president has, the president blatantly, publicly urging reporters go ask pence about what he did. take a look. >> i think you should ask for vp pence's conversation because he had a couple of conversations also. i can save you a lot of time. they're all perfect. >> how does that look given this "post" story tonight? >> that looks like donald trump knows he's in trouble. in contrast in watergate, when nixon knew he was in trouble,
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vice president ford who was not his running mate and stepped in when spiro agnew was forced to resign because of allegations and proven bribe taking, president ford went on a plane and spent time fund-raising for republicans as far away from washington as possible. he had a clean record in congress and kept his record clean as vice president. but something else that happened which was important, republicans and democrats alike knew ford's integrity was a important resource for the nation and it was a good thing for everybody that ford being well away from washington so when nixon did go, there was someone untainted who could step into nixon's place. that was a real mercy in the last time we had a completed impeachment crisis. this time the problem we're going to have is we don't have a clean person. the vice president would step into the president's shoes should he be removed but we don't have somebody untainted and can command the confidence of the nation. >> you argue that's deliberately trump's plan? >> well, i think that's just the confluence of events.
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vice president pence early, he ran with trump, which ford did not do with nixon. and pence also saw his path of influence in the election, as close as possible in the election. >> before i break, i have to ask you this other news story here, when you read the story does it feel like other people are trying to burnish him better, or we there yet or just force doggedly information? >> we have to be getting there. what if for some reason donald trump's health wa deteriorate between now and 2020. donald trump discovered he couldn't run for some reason. pence has to be thinking do we want to make a small change because he's threatened by the possibility republicans there say let's sweep the whole ticket away and run someone entirely new. >> i can only imagine how this is playing in the white house the president reads a person he thinks he gave his national
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political career to, mike pence, his aide saying we're not involved with whatever this ukraine thing is. this is quite a story. david, thank you very much, sir. we have a lot more coming up including a lawyer from the impeachment defense saying there's a way to know when you hit an impeachment tipping point. and reaction to michael moore, a whole lot of stuff we will show you later in the hour on "the beat." it's just the wa . when you're under pressure to get the job done, it seems you have to accept the fact that some equipment will sit idle, or underutilized. but it doesn't have to be that way. that's why united rentals is combining equipment, data, safety and expertise to help your worksite perform better. united rentals. a better worksite is here. you may have gingivitis. when you brush, and the clock could be ticking towards bad breath, receding gums, and possibly...
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. i think you should ask for vp pence's conversation because he had a couple of conversations also. coy save you a lot of time. they're all perfect. >> donald trump had publicly roped mike pence into this ukraine scandal. tonight "the washington post" with a blockbuster reporting, trump involved pence in these efforts to pressure ukraine and pence's aide saying he was unaware he had anything to do with dirt on biden. i'm joined by former federal
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prosecutor john flamry, who assisted democrats in the impeachment of bill clinton. a lot of experience here. good evening to you, sir. >> good evening. >> i want to get to several things, starting with the breaking news, what does it tell you that "the washington post" is reporting this out tonight? >> what it tells us is the corruption in the west wing extend from the president perhaps to the vice president. the denial, denial we get from everybody is discouraging. it can't be given much weight. how could you not know doing the things that he was doing that he didn't know what it was about? he quite understood, and there were conversations apparently in the white house, and i assume he's sitting in some corner of the room in some of those meetings and they're talking about why they want zelensky to help them out with the presidential election next year. pence can't claim to be disinterested. he wanted to be the vice president again. >> you lay it out and that's big, and it comes as we're seeing what by my estimation is just one student of the current era, a much faster, accelerated timetable for people that start
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turning in public. off the top of my head, john, the attorney general is now suddenly angry about all of this. mike pence is suddenly out of the loop about all of this. >> right. >> rick perry is suddenly cooperating with congress. he will cooperate, he says, on the impeachment probe, unlike others. rudy giuliani, obviously, has been rudy giulianiing. to save time i will leave it at that. you take it together and what took the mueller probe months and sometimes over a year, by my count in two weeks we're seeing people go a lot of different directions. my question to you as an experienced criminal investigator, why? >> what we have are the rats leaving the ship. we overlook pompeo -- >> you and donald trump are both calling people rats. >> were mice in the press room at the white house. even they were smart enough to get out of the way. >> solid effort. for those sitting here, it was a
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mouse that apparently dropped in the press box. >> yes. what they're beginning to see is this is different than any other earlier disclosure. you have the president saying don't worry what it says but what it basically says is notwithstanding some say there's quid pro quo. i'm holding $491 million you need for your defense against russia but i have a precondition before we give it to you so you can buy the javelins you need. and the subpoena to rudy giuliani is what information do you have on yovanovitch, who he paved the way to get in the way
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of ukraine. >> you're talking about the people over there that want to go after biden. >> exactly. >> we came on the air before the pence story broke, speaking before congress, who told us solemnly, jan schakowsky, adam schiff is facing death threats, speaking of violence and nancy pelosi said we're facing threats to the constitution, and the wider context is whether the president of the united states is abusing his office to criminally target rivals. something we've seen in other countries, ukraine among other places and russia in which putin does. we had dissidents from russia on this show who did hard time because of their run against putin. >> exactly. >> the question is how literal do we take it? i say that because it's my job to follow the facts and not get ahead of it. how literal we take it, not only is the request from ukraine there and adam schiff being threatsened with a treegs investigation, if donald trump can find someone to do it, i
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want to put up on the screen the other context here that the fbi director who replaced comey for being fired for insufficient loyalty, that former acting fbi director is awaiting any decision whether doj is indicting him right here in america. and a judge is pushing back. for your analysis, i want to read this. a judge saying the government will have to make a call. that's ranks to the trump administration. if it and does the, i'm going to start ordering the release of information. in our society, our public has a right to know what's going on. unusual judicial pushback for a very controversial case where the argument is the that bill barr's justice department is doing what trump was asking ukraine to do. what does that all mean? how does that figure into this? >> the short form is are you prosecuting an innocent man for political purposes? and one of the requests to the justice department is the question, isn't it a fact you presented this to a grand jury and they wouldn't indict? that's very unusual, runaway grand jury. i know of one case in which a senator once went before the grand jury and they did not
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indict and there appears to be a similar thing here. what the judge is saying i'm going to release this investigation because there is no investigation. if you don't by november 15th, either form an indictment or not, if not, i'm going to release the information. that's critical. then we'll have a good idea whether these prosecutors were making crime for political purposes against mccabe. >> it is a potential scandal in plain sight against the backdrop of all of this. we're going to stay on that story with john flannery and i think we will be seeing a lot of you on "the beat." >> thank you, sir. hillary clinton is live tonight on rachel maddow 9:00 p.m. eastern. coming up on "the beat" -- how do you attack donald trump's collusion claims when he's now admitting to it? michael moore has advice for the democrats. he did predict donald trump's win and has comments about joe biden that relates to biden's response today. for your busines. when you've got public clouds,
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juul took $12.8 billion from big tobacco. markets e-cigarettes with kid friendly flavors and uses nicotine to addict them. 5 million kids use e-cigarettes. juul is "following big tobacco's playbook." and now, juul is pushing prop c to overturn e-cigarette protections. vote no on juul. no on big tobacco. no on prop c. joe bid biden making news today with new comments about the ukraine scandal and i'm going to show you that in this segment. but first i want to give you some other context. michael moore making waves on the beat and talking about democrats and impeachment. >> any time the democrats make a decision because it's right to do it, it's morally right to do it, they will find millions of
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people flocking to the polls to support them. not only do so many americans now, so many millions want the committee to investigate, they're -- the higher number is for impeach and remove. when that question is asked. trump is on the run. they need to chase him down. he was trying to affect the election next year. >> right. >> there's no greater sin other than actually attacking our country. how could anyone stand for this? this is -- this must -- they must act and act quickly. we are in a dangerous situation. >> moore is one of the few people in public space who ever predicted trump would win in 2016 and he had his own take on biden last night. >> joe biden is this year's hillary. joe biden is not going to excite the base to get out there and vote. he's afraid to be out there. >> this as you say baseiloless attack by trump has worked in a way on joe biden.
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>> it's worked a little bit in a sense it's kept him from being fighting joe. when they attack your family and tr you're trying to be all kumbaya about this, you've got to put the gloves on and depgo out. >> take a look how he's handling it. new remarks. >> it is way beyond anything that i quite frankly thought he would do. i think we should just focus on he's the issue. nobody has ever asserted that i did anything wrong except he and what's that fellah's name rudy hooty. >> you know who trump sounds like these days, that's who's running to replace him and that's the current nature of rebuttal. when we come back i have one
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i want to share one more thing from my interview with musician swizz beatz. >> i've never seen him, i'm recently just seen a pen in jay's hand and it wasn't a write a lyric. >> so when jay does his double and triple intendres that's
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stored up there as well. >> i think he has a library in his head, i don't know. >> you can learn more about that process in the interview on msnbc.c "hardball" is up next. trump knows he's in trouble. let's play hardball. good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. we're witnessing a presidential melt down. trump seems to be deeply agitated now by the impeachment investigation. he's calling his critics traitors and calling the investigation itself a coup. can today in tweets and before the cameras trump spun himself into a frenzy. the president was


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