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tv   The Beat With Ari Melber  MSNBC  October 3, 2019 3:00pm-4:00pm PDT

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that's all we have for tonight we'll be back for tomorrow with more "meet the press" daily. the beat with andrew mccari mel right now. >> we're uncovering everything in the impeachment inquiry and probe. democrats warn this is part of a brazen effort to normalize the abuses of power and more on the breaking story of vice president pence's ukraine problem. and you know about our friend tony schwartz, he is here later this hour. we begin with the sitting president of the united states asking a foreign country to target his domestic rival. in 2016, president was then a candidate and he did that as everyone now remembers with russia. this year, as president, he secretly did it with ukraine. and today, right in the middle of some of the most serious push
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back that donald trump has faced in office, this full-blown impeachment probe, the president publically asked china to go after china. >> i have a lot of options on china. if they don't do what we want, we have tremendous power. by the way, likewise, china should start an investigation into the bidens, because what happened to china is just about as bad as what happened with -- with ukraine. [ inaudible question ] >> i haven't, but it's certainly something we can start thinking about. >> lord, i hope there are tapes. well, there is one, you just saw it. before i go any further, let's pause as we sometimes do around here and put what you just saw on your screen, that incriminating request from the president in context. until last week, donald trump tried to hide these kind of collusion requests.
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his administration tried to bury a whistle-blower complaint about one, then they fought releasing a transcript. then they backtracked under an escalated impeachment probe and coughed up the evidence. and that was a turning point. on this broadcast we reported that shift from no collusion to pro-collusion in the trump message machine. so what you're seeing today, which is obviously incriminating, which is something no president has ever publically admitted to doing in office is part of that shift, it continues right now. donald trump having lost that battle to deny and hide collusion, is now doubling down on one of his other ploys. if you watch the news you are familiar with some of his ploys. revealing bad conduct in public to imply something which is egregious must maybe not look that bad if you just admit it and keep doing it, a kind of laundering. what you see and hear, if it feels like a trick, that's
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because it is. that informs why he made another confession today, again on the same collusion conduct that he was hiding and denying last week. last week was a period of time when the united states government had broken federal law to hide a whistle-blower's complaint of collusion about ukraine. keep that in mind as you witness -- because we can make sense of all this, as you witness the president taking that which he was hiding last week and confessing on this effort to abuse his power. >> what exactly did you hope president zelensky would do? >> i hoped if they were honest about it, they would start an investigation into the bidens. it's a very simple answer. >> very simple answer. we're living through a test of our constitution and the president is making it clear, on the ukraine matter, which you just heard the confession on, he
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asked husbaforeigners to take o rivals. on news days like this, this is one i didn't know the president would ask another country to collude and confess to the abuse of the heart in the ukraine scandal that's powering impeachment. so on days like this we watch and report and wait to see how rachel maddow will put it in context in the evening. i can tell you she was on air earlier today. so i have for you right now her early interpretation of the china confession and trump strategy. >> the president walked out on the south lawn today, asked what do you want from the ukraine, he said they ought to investigate biden. i think his theory here is you get caught, you know, murdering somebody and your defense is i killed the guy, he needed to be killed, so what. doing it in public makes it less of a scandal?
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i don't know. but they don't really need an inquiry anymore if they're going to go after him and impeach him for asking ukraine to investigate biden, that's what he just did and announced on if front lawn. >> i'll be joined momentarily by congresswoman jackie hill. but we're going to begin with a former prosecutor and a former ambassador. good evening to you both. ambassador, what does it mean when the president openly calls for this kind of foreign collusion and admits what he was denying last week. >> he's trying to normalize what is illegal conduct or conduct that's subject to an impeachment probe. what's more important, behind this, the fact that he included china, you have to go back and
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examine the law firm of giuliani, barr, and pompeo. the three of these guys have been traveling around the world allegedly doing the president's bidding to investigate 2016 as well as joe biden's son. at the state department it's clear there must be digital footprints over where joe biden's son, hunter, travelled and what both barr, as well as giuliani and as well as pompeo's staff may be doing to support the president's assertion, let's have china investigate, next thing it'll be itemlaly. i served as white house liaison for the state department and there's a political operation under pompeo that deserves to be called out and investigated, whether they were involved in tracking biden as well. >> briefly, if pompeo is in on this, can he continue to serve as secretary of state? >> listen, if he was on that call and the house of representatives in an investigation determines that
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that call should have had mr. pompeo and anyone else on that call call the president out, it is quite clear to me that mr. pompeo has, shall we say, joined the law firm of giuliani and pompeo rather than served independently as the secretary of state. >> stay with me, i want to turn to baird here in new york. if you woke up today and you were busy and now you see in the news, under fire for ukraine collusion, the president is seeking china collusion to go after joe biden to double down on this, when you look at this legally, although an impeachment probe is not about a designed felony, but legally how would you look at a defendant acting this way? >> if i saw a defendant acting this way, i would see it as a pattern. you have more evidence what he was trying to do with ukraine. it makes it difficult to mount an offensive that's not what i was trying to do when he came
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out publically and did it today. whether it's legal or not, we have to put that aside. it's almost certainly not constitutional. and as rachel said, this is one of those articles of impeachment that's not going to need an extensive inquiry. there's a tape, you play the tape, you have the article of impeachment right there. it's cut and dry, whereas perhaps with the ukraine scandal it may not be as cut and dry. >> here's what congressman schiff said about all this. take a listen. >> i find once again the president inviting another country to interfere in our presidential elections repugn t repugnant, and a fundamental breech of his oath of office. >> pretty emphatic, rachel laid it out, you mentioned that. i want to ask you something that lawyers like yourself do know a lot about. that's the timeline, the calendar, what normal people call delaying and what lawyers call dilatory tactics, annoying
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phrase. lawyers like to buy time, the house is using a quasi legal strategy here. is donald trump trying to call their delay or timeline out here while they're on recess and daring them to proceed. because part of what he's done today is make a calculated risk -- it's a risk, but a risk of saying i tried hiding it, now i'm doubling down on it. he may do it for two weeks, there could be a list of ten coun countries by the time congress gets back. >> i think it's an effort to normalize it, saying i'm not sneaking around trying to do it, i'm confident in my ability as the president to make this request or demand of a country that i'm going to do it publically. i don't know if it's a strategy but it's clearly an effort to do that. as far as the timing piece of this, that's the worry, what
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does congress do with something like this? do they file it away and say this will be one more article and we focus on bringing in witnesses to talk about ukraine? i think they sort of have to, they have important witnesses they haven't gotten to speak with, they have evidence they haven't gotten their hands on, including all the evidence on rudy giuliani's phone right now. i think they have to proceed with those requests but they can't get bogged down in the details. as we said before they have to be laser focussed here, get what they need to and move on. >> the other story i want to update you on was this reporting on what lawmakers are learning from what berit was talking about. donald trump's former envoy to ukraine, kurt volker, he apparently warned rudy giuliani that he was getting untrustworthy information about biden, according to "the washington post." abc news saying, the top u.s.
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diplomat in ukraine told others i think it's crazy to who wouit security assistance for help with a political campaign. what does that mean? this is what congress is learnilear learning -- we at nbc have not personally confirmed that reporting yet. but you have high level officials, that donald trump was using pressure on ukraine to go after biden. that's another piece of this that he's been denying. >> there was absolutely no pressure put on him. there was no quid pro quo at all. >> i want to bring in overwhelm jackie spear. on this issue what did congress learn today? >> i was not in the interview earlier today. i just arrived back in washington, so i can't speak to it.
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i can speak to the fact that this is a very sober time, and we have a very solemn responsibility to pursue this impeachment inquiry. this is not a reality tv show and unfortunately that's what the president is attempting to play out here. i think his actions today created another article of impeachment. we have to remind ourselves that china is one of our greatest adversaries and he is linking negotiating a deal on tariffs with whether or not they come up with some dirt on biden. so it doesn't take a lawyer to figure out that this is an effort by the president to, once again, normalize, as many of your other speakers have said, normalize something that is truly wrong. mike pence -- >> let me ask you this, congresswoman. you're saying this new request is an article of impeachment.
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many of your colleagues are on record supporting ukraine as an a article of impeachment. and the mueller report, just the five core influences that were described as obstruction of justice by the president, that would be a third. are you up to three and counting? >> i'm not going to count. i'm going to do what my job is, which is to interview all the individuals we are seeking information from, provide -- have all of the documents provided to us by giuliani and others. and make the case, if there is a case to be made, that we should move forward with article of impeachment. let's remember what mike pence said in 2016, this is basic stuff. you do not solicit a foreign person or a foreign government to solicit them for campaign information and that's precisely
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what president trump has done in ukraine and what he's seeking to do now with china. >> if all that is right and you heard what our guests have said and what i played of rachel maddow and others, what else is congress waiting for? is there now a case to be made to holding a floor vote on the articles of impeachment the week you all get back? >> i think what we need to do is be both expeditious but also very thorough. and that's going to require us to interview a number of people. and frankly, as the president continues to mouth off as he does, regularly, he may be making more articles for us on a daily basis. he would serve himself best if he would turn off his twitter account and stop speaking about impeachment, because this is a serious effort that is under way, and we are not going to allow him to somehow diminish the nature of this inquiry. >> let me follow-up on that and
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whip it around the panel as we're short on time. does more time benefit trump or not on the impeachment vote? it sounds like the congresswoman thinks not and says to go thorough. mark, what do you think? >> there's no doubt that going thorough means that not necessarily that you should necessarily go long. adam schiff is taking the lead on this, he has a great staff. i think there's a danger here that the more this plays out, the more the president is able to sort of try to normalize this with americans and to say that this is just exactly what he claimed it is, a witch hunt. and i think getting the panel to convince the american people that this is serious and not permit the president to regularize it means you have to move quickly. >> berit? >> i agree. it seems more time means congress needs more evidence, they need one more smoking gun, one more amazing witness that can add to this.
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when really they have the evidence. they have the tape, they have the transcript of the conversation with respect to ukraine. i think the danger is if it goes on too long they're not confident with the evidence they have. >> both persuasive arguments. congresswoman i'll give you the last word. the difference between you, me and everyone on the panel, is you have a vote based on your constituents but it does sound from the panel that you should go quicker than you and the speaker sounded. i'll give you the final word. >> i will say the american people deserve to have a full and comprehensive set of principles that they can look at. i don't think we're going to linger. but i do think we're going to make sure that we don't leave any stone unturned. and that's our job. >> thank you, congresswoman, berit and mark. next we'll debate how you conduct this impeachment, we have a top expert on the show
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tonight. mike pence in trouble for his own comments on foreign meddling. and rush limbaugh now so concerned about trump's free fall, he's lashing out at fox news for not defending him enough. and donald trump trying to handle his own impeachment response as a one person war room. and as promised, the one and only tony schwartz is here. i'm ari melber you're watching "the beat" on msnbc. e watching "the beat" on msnbc. you should be mad at non-seasoned travelers. and they took my toothpaste away. and you should be mad at people who take unnecessary risks. how dare you, he's my emotional support snake. but you're not mad, because you have e*trade, whose tech helps you understand the risk and reward potential on an options trade it's a paste. it's not liquid or a gel. and even explore what-if scenarios. where's gate 87? don't get mad. get e*trade and start trading today.
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many of president trump's allies are squirming today trying to avoid the entanglement in this ukraine plot, mike pence insisting president trump is trying to root out corruption but his staff claims he was out of the loop to get the damaging information on biden, even though his team was actually read in on the call. pence met with ukraine's president in september and then the next day was asked if biden was discussed. take a look. >> the answer is no. with president zelensky yesterday we discussed -- we discussed america's support for ukraine and the upcoming decision the president will make on the latest financial support in great detail. >> the financial support at the center of the plot.
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meanwhile, mike pompeo faces a deadline of tomorrow to comply with a democratic subpoena. today the "new york times" has pompeo's criticism of the obama administration during the benghazi probe. >> i dare you to find another congressional inquiry where one party behaved in a way that was deeply obstructive of the people getting the information. >> i'm joined by the author of what's the matter with republicans? what is the matter? >> they bought into a corrupt man and they have never gotten off the exit ramp and his sins became theirs. they don't have the courage to stand up to him. they put their own perceived
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self-interest above the interest of the country. they made accommodations for him. the more aggressive trump was the more accommodating republicans were and now they're intwined with a man that's going to go down and they're going down with him. >> listen to joe biden who spoke out on the other side of this whole scandal. this was last night. >> so i'm not surprised donald trump asked a foreign government for help to beat me. i'm not surprised this president's allegations of wrong doing against me have been debunked across the board by every major publication in the country. we have to do more than beat donald trump. we have to beat him like a drum. >> peter, given your experience, i'm wondering what you think of the way that joe biden is handling this? >> i think he's handling it fine. right now i think donald trump is imploding. the best thing to do is stand
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back and watch it. this is i would say we're somewhere between act 3 and 4 of king leer and his decent into madness. i wouldn't overthink this, donald trump doesn't play four-dimensional chess here, he has a primitive relex on everything and is a morale. that said i think biden is handling it reasonably well. in the end i would say this election is going to be -- whether it's about democratic policies or trump's personality and his conduct. so to the degree that biden or any other democrat can make it about trump the better for them and trump is giving them unbelievable ammunition to work with. >> brittany? >> part of what i think is going on, a couple things. like everyone said today, he's trying to normalize bad behavior. we need to talk about that. i think he's trying to make sure that biden is the opponent. this news cycle puts biden back
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in the news he wasn't really at the top of the ticket of late, you know, it's been a story about elizabeth warren, i think trump is trying to set who his opponent will be and then i think he is back dooring an obama strategy. remember, trump came up with the birtherism story. now he's doing the same thing with biden, if biden were to win he's delegitimizing his presidency and the way he would govern. this is the way trump plays politics. he's not just interested in winning and having power, he's interested in undermining our system of governance by seeding this broad disbelief in american institutions and their ability to do justice. if he does that, it means if he's brought before this impeachment inquiry, you have a
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significant swath of the country that will not get on board with it because they think it's a conspiracy against trump. >> when you look at pence with this, when you look at his evangelical background, what he claimed to be for and jumping on board with donald trump, we have a contrast of the way he used to talk about these issues of pro pryty and profitering. >> i think the american people need to know if the vice president of the united states or his family profited from his position as president during the last administration. >> you need to know out there, this is basic stuff. foreign donors and foreign governments cannot participate in the american political process. >> foreign governments cannot participate in the political process. the president now is on record asking three different governments to go after his rivals, including today. at what point do you think mike
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pence finds a way to draw more contrast or is he just going to wait this whole thing out? >> i suspect he's going to try to wait it out. he's the personal i think is fundamentally weak and if trump or his aides turn on him, he's going to come back back into the trump tribe. this is just -- you know we've seen this a thousand times, these acts of hypocrisy on the republican party. i want to make one point. pence is the latest in a whole slew of people. donald trump is like a black hole in terms of the corrupt gravitational pull that he has. and almost everybody that's been around him, with the exception of i would say james mattis, has been pulled into it. these are people, some of them were good, had good careers. i'm sure in a different reality would be good people. but they got close to him, they decided they were going to throw their hat over the trump wall and this is what happens. there's a huge amount of
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collateral damage in terms of people's integrity. >> when you call donald trump a black hole of corruption, that is definitely an astro physics burn, peter. >> thank you. i was wondering if you would pick up on that, i'm glad you did. >> brittney? >> were these people good people? i think they were corrupt from the top of their feet. mike pence is a big evangelical christian. what you're seeing because the republicans chose to get in bed with this fascist auto cat, every plank of what they say they believe in is crumbling. pence was involved in the shakedown of ukraine then came to the news and said we talked about financial incentives of ukraine or our financial support of ukraine. he's admitting to this stuff, part of the thing i worry about we're not holding pence's feet
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to the fire, the way we should. this is a man that said god told him he would be president. i think part of what we have to do is smash down this entire mode of government say all of it is evil, it's dishonest. is anyone bothered by the fact we have a president that governs by conspiracy theory. >> i have to fit in a break, only 30 seconds but thank you both so much. back in 30 seconds, guess who's here, guess who's back as they say, take a look. here it is, tony schwartz in the pinstripes, coauthor of "the art of the deal". we'll be back in 30. "the art of the deal" we'll be back in 30. nly pay for what you need. wow. thanks, zoltar. how can i ever repay you? maybe you could free zoltar?
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thanks, lady. taxi! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ is the melt down getting worse, donald trump now encouraging china to investigate joe biden. we'll get into all of this right now. so far trump sticking in a one-man war room, providing no guidance or assistance, no coordination with legal advisers. the idea that trump can fix it is on display in this pair of rambling appearances. >> the conversation was perfect he couldn't cary his blank strap, i won't say it but that guy couldn't carry his blank strap. perfect conversation. the call was perfect. nancy pelosi hands out subpoenas like -- she has to approve it.
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she hands out subpoenas like they're cookies. you want a subpoena, here you go, take them. like they're cookies. >> you know what it is, state of mind, our reoccurring series with tony schwartz, the author of the way we are working isn't working, and co-author of "the art of the deal". thank you for coming in. >> thanks for having me. >> let's start with your opinion, which some people call your bias. you have been waiting for this, you have been waiting to see donald trump on the run. is he more on the run in this ukraine scandal than any time we've seen him since he became president? >> i think the objective evidence is obvious that he is. i think what's really interesting is to observe a level of de -- falling apart that -- melting down that is so far beyond what we've seen in his press conference yesterday
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to watch him, especially in that moment where he was going back and forth with the reporter and see that he actually moved from fight, which is his normal physiological place, to what i would call freeze, which is an extreme version of fight where he literally was paralyzed and finally said, ask that guy a question, ask him a question. >> that is fascinating. you've worked with him, you know him, you've studied him. what you're saying is so revealing in that moment. there's a debate in this country, do you interview the president anymore and some of his enablers and people who admit to lying. we want to shout out to router's jeff mason. he held the line, which led to the moment you're calling the freeze. >> the question, sir, was what did you wanted president zelensky to do about vice president biden and his son, hunter? >> are you talking to me?
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>> yeah, i was just a follow-up of what i just asked you, sir. >> listen, are you ready? we have the president of finland, ask him a question. i've given you a long answer. ask this gentlemen a question, don't be rude. >> i don't want to be rude. i want you to have a chance to answer the question that i asked you. >> i answered it. it's a hoax, you know who's playing into the hoax? people like you. >> there's a piece out today called unfit for office, by george conway, kellyanne conway's husband, about why trump is unfit for office. it's first of all, quite extraordinary. it's like a prosecution of trump but particularly around this idea that he's a fiduciary. that he has a responsibility to represent the country in this case, and he is putting his personal interests ahead of it. and that is in violent opposition to what the
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constitution laid out. he also talks about the components of pathological narcissism. that's a psychological diagnosis, but his point is that it doesn't take a psychiatrist to recognize, as you just saw in that piece, that this is a man who is way, way out there. he's way off in the blue yonder. to watch this is frightening, particularly because, ari, it's going to get way worse. because what's happened to him is, when you talk about narcissism, you're basically talking about a guy who's constantly trying to fill himself. i heard peter talk about the idea of a black hole. the black hole is really, at base, about his own sense of himself. there's an emptiness and there's a terror that's setting in that he's going to lose the
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legitimacy that the presidency gave him. >> that's the other thing i was going to ask. i was wondering about this, i don't know the answer. what does it mean to you that the mueller probe, which he triggered with his own brash firing of the fbi director, comes to an end with mueller's testimony and the next day he does this, is that almost a political death wish? >> i think donald trump is undeniably his own worst enemy. and i think that we see it play out over and over again. and psychiatrists talk about the notion that when you are defensive the inevitable outcome of the defense is to pull upon yourself precisely what you were meant to be defending against. so he goes and doubles down on the very illegal act that he's done, because he's in such a state of defensiveness and lack
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of good cognition that all he can do is attack. and that is evidence of what he does to himself every day. every day. and that will get worse. it'll get worse for him. and it'll get worse for us. we are a long way from over in watching this unfold. >> it looks different, feels different, and the president seems to know it's different. tony schwartz, always good to see you. appreciate it. >> good to see you. ahead we'll speak to one of the leading experts on the u.s. constitution and this issue, and how the president's favorite network is defending him but upsetting him. >> that is a violation of federal law. that's an impeachable offense. federal law. that's an impeachable offense. the good news? our protection lasts all day.
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the impeachment probe of donald trump has many people rattled, including insiders in
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the trump orbit. consider these new subpoena threats hang not only over him but people around him. now there's talk of a new career move. >> we ought to start our own network and put some real news out there, because they are so bad, they are so bad for our country. >> there's a context to this. because fox news, of course, has embraced trumpism in the modern era but there are decenting voices to be fair and accurate. for example judge andrew napolitano, a frequent fox analyst is out in public saying what trump did is criminal and impeachable. >> every member of his national security council said give him the aid, the russian tanks are aimed their way. but he held up that aid and instead asked for a favor, which arguably was for his political campaign. that was a violation of federal
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law. that is an impeachable offense. >> that's just one voice on the network, but it is a serious legal voice. it's clearly got some people rattled. take a look at the politics of this at rush limbaugh's view. >> we've even got never trumpers now all over fox news. this phone call very hard to defend. i wouldn't want to have to defend this phone call. if i were the republicans -- there's nothing hard to defend about the phone call, you just don't want to defend it. fox ought to change the name of the network from the fox news channel to the fox never trumper network. >> that's overstatement but there's debate that has percolated between two well known anchors of the fox audience, people trump knows all about, and it's spilled out into the open. >> it is a crime for the president to solicit aid for his
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campaign from a foreign government. >> i think the judge is a fool. >> attacking our colleague on our air, in our work home is repugna repugnant. >> unlike some day side hosts i'm not partisan. >> the really issue is the phone call, the claim that the president pressured a foreign leader -- >> that's reportable, you can watch whatever channel you want. i'm reporting it to you because donald trump does rely on people on that channel. he's hired out of that channel. people leave the administration and go back to that channel. and this kind of tension is clearly a product of the tension around donald trump's presidency and the threat of impeachment. meanwhile, there's this blunt message to the president himself. >> first of all, mr. president, we don't work for you, i don't work for you. my job is to cover you, not fawn over you or rip you, just report
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on you. >> and then consider chris walla wallace, who is a veteran of conservative washington with this message for viewers, you can decide as you listen to it, who else it may have been intended for. >> to dismiss this as a political hack seems to me to be an effort by the president's defenders to try to make something -- to make nothing out of something and there is something here. >> that's chris wallace, fact checking the president's defenders, wherever they may be and wherever they may air. now when we come back, i've got speci something really special for you. we've been doing a lot of special bookings with this issue. wait till you see who's next, a foremost scholar. , a foremost scholar horsepower. (engines rev)
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now you can take control of your home wifi and get a notification the instant someone new joins your network... only with xfinity xfi. download the xfi app today. united states congress is not just debating whether to impeach donald trump but also deciding if they do it, how? do they write articles of impeachment based on this ukraine call which donald trump further confessed to today and confessions make evidence at a trial. or do they broaden the other acts including what bob mueller found regarding obstruction of justice. speaker pelosi said this about the debate when she first announced the impeachment probe last week. >> this is about the constitution of the united states and we have many other,
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shall we say, candidates for impeachable offense in terms of the constitution of the united states. but this one is the most understandable by the public. >> joined by harvard law prof s professer lawrence tribe. good evening. >> good evening. >> if you were advicing the house on drafting articles of impeachment, what would you advise? >> first i would advise of not sum coming to the temptation to take the tour of the whole galaxy, all the way from russia if you're listening, there are emails out there we would love to see, to today china if you're listening i would like you to help me smash joe biden. it's more important to zone in on one common theme.
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one common theme from george washington to the framers of the constitution was the very idea why we need the power of impeachment and can't always wait until the next election. e. that theme is that when someone uses the power and majesty of the presidency, its financial power, its military power not to benefit the united states but to benefit him or herself and his or her own re-election, that is a betrayal of a fiduciary duty to the nation. and that is what is involved in the pattern, the continuing pattern of abuses that it typified bayou crane and china but extends beyond them. the key point september just that it's a federal felony to solicit foreign help in an american election. that sounds technical.
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the point is that it wasn't just soliciting foreign help, it was leveraging the powers that go with the office to intervene in our policy whether it's with tariffs and trade with china or helping the little ukrainian defense against the powerful russian bear. that is that matter of taking the power of the presidency and using it for selfish purchases that is the core impeachable offense. and that could be a central article of impeachment, not an article that gets lost in technical detail. and we have vaufrp wale all the evidence we need to start writing that article, and i look forward to helping to write it. >> have you been contacted? >> well, i don't talk about my direct contacts, but i've had friends and former students who are on the hill, and advise them
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all the time. >> and if asked though in a more formal way you would go in and help, right, for the house? long before we got to meet on television i was reading you in law school. you are one of the foremost constitutional experts and you've advised the congress in the past, so it's a reasonable question. >> well, i would certainly be very happy to advise congress now. that's something that congress, i think, is interested in doing because its interested in getting the law right. this is political process, but there's also some complicated law about what is an impeachable offense, and i'm delighted to be consulted about that if people ask. >> very interesting. when you lay it out as an abuse of power to hold onto power, an abuse of power to interfere with what would otherwise be a free and fair election with a level playing field, it's certainly what the founders were concerned about, it's certainly in the strike zone of impeachment.
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>> not only in the strike zone, it's the very heart of it. it's the very reason we have an impeachment power. otherwise, one could go after all kinds of details that a president might pea engaged in. >> i have 60 seconds left so the last thing i want to ask on that if that's the case are you envisioning one route is a single article, abuse of power in the election context and then the rest of it is the evidence meaning ukraine, kina, other things all go under that umbrella? >> that's one possible way, but i think the cover-up and the attempt when he's not doing it out in the open to hide the details may also form an ancillary article of impeachment. because it was like article 3 in the nixon articles, that is stonewalling congress and making it impossible to get the details one might need to fill out the entire narrative. >> professor tribe, so interesting to hear from you on nights like this with your
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judgment, with your sexpertise. thank you for being on the show. really appreciate it. we've got a lot coming up including next i'm going to explain why tomorrow is such a big dead line the ukraine impeachment fight. and we do have a new mavericks out. you can watch the whole interview and a lot more. the address for that is msnbc.com/mavericks. is msnbc.com/mavericks. as a cio, you want to move your business forward.
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a lot happened today that we weren't expecting. tomorrow there's a lot that's going to happen and we are expecting it because we know there's this deadline for secretary of state pompeo to give up ukraine docs to congress. and the man who deemed this whistleblower complaint urgent will face congress but behind closed doors. we'll be covering all of that at 6:00 p.m. eastern on "the beat." and something big we're planning because of the news. sometimes we get our news assignments as the news happens. this weekend is one of those times. i'll be hosting a live special. you see it right here, trump and ukraine, the impeachment crisis with ari melber, and we have some very special experts both on the law and how congress does this, journalists and historians and federal prosecutors who have dealt with these very issues. i hope you'll consider joining
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me. in fact if you you have your iphone out, put a little calendar reminder this sunday on msnbc. don't go anywhere because up next it's "hardball" with chris matthews. okay, i did it. let's play hardball. good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. flustered and defiant president trump is throwing caution to the wind tonight giving congress even more grounds to impeach him for extorting a u.s. ally. answering the question he refused to address yesterday, trump today gave a detailed confession of the misconduct of some center of his call with ukrainian president zelensky. trump said his goal in that conversation was to get ukraine to deliver dirt on joe biden. >> mr.

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