everyone, welcome to the cross connection. until cross coming to you live from new orleans where the ss is happening this weekend. we are all still reeling from the shocking testimony out of the surprise january six hearing on tuesday. thanks to cassidy hutchison, former senior aide to donald trump's chief of staff mark meadows, we learned that trump knew that the rioters were definitely armed, and quote did not effing care that they had weapons. she said trump was so upset that the motorcade was not going to the capitol, that he actually tried to grab the steering wheel. of course the headliner is denying all of this. just yesterday, nbc news confirmed that she received a message before her testimony they can certainly amount to witness intimidation. it sounds a lot like it. it's important to remember, these hearings are happening because democrats are in control of congress. if the democrats lose after november's midterms, in a congressional effort to hold trump and his coconspirators

accountable, and the legislation that might serve you, it all goes away. joining me now is current florida congresswoman and candidate for u.s. senate, congresswoman val demings. she is a former impeachment manager and trump's first impeachment trial. we are both in the beautiful city of new orleans celebrating -- before we get into, that i want to ask you, because you served as a house impeachment manager, i have been riveted by the testimony each week but something else more shocking happens every week. i want to hear your, thoughts you've more intimate view, what was the most shocking thing you heard out of the january 6th hearings so far? >> tiffany, it's great to be back with you. let me just say, during the first impeachment trial, there was no doubt in my mind that the president used his power to try to coerce a foreign power. it isn't interesting that it's ukraine to interfere in the

united states election? i knew that we would be at this point, because i knew number one, president trump would not allow us to impeach him and he is a habitual offender. that means he keeps offending. since the hearings, kudos to the chair and all of the members of the select committee. there is no doubt that the president knew what was going on on january 6th. i think as a former law enforcement officer, the most shocking is that he knew that the rioters were armed and could potentially use those weapons against members of congress, against their staff, and his vice president. >> right. knowing that they were armed, will we also know is that this debunks the whole ridiculous talking point that the republicans had that these were actually antifa, black lives matter, because according to them, if they were so concerned that those were the folks who

are violent, then trump would not know that they would not harm him. it is a quagmire of ridiculousness. i want you to take a listen to congresswoman cheney reveal concerns of witness tampering. take a listen, we will talk about it on the other side. >> this is a call received by one of our witnesses. quote, a person let me know that you have your deposition tomorrow. he wants me to let you know that he is thinking about you. he knows you are loyal, and you will do the right thing when you go in for your deposition. >> you've worked in law enforcement for a long time. this definitely appears to be witness tampering. nbc news has confirmed on friday but the message was for cassidy hutchison, and the person who left the message was mark meadows. this is all according to a person familiar with hutchison's deposition. what is the proper accountability here. what does justice look like in all of this? >> well tiffany, i have worked

in law enforcement, but i have also worked with mark meadows. and we worked on the oversight committee, and a lot of that is very disappointing but my hat is off to miss hutchison. isn't it a shame that a 24-year-old is the one that would come forward a person without a powerful position, but someone who has not taken a powerful stance to hold people accountable. if i was still a police detective, i would be very interested in that text message that she received from someone who is pretty much buried in this investigation. >> yes, and i'm curious, just to pretend that merrick garland, the attorney general, is watching this broadcast right now. what would be your recommendation to department of justice considering all of the things that we have heard, and the two systems of justice that are in this country. >> i know that we have all been

anxious to see the department of justice get busy. it has been that way for years with the impeachment inquiries, but certainly with the january six committee. but the department of justice is busy, as we've all heard reports, and i do believe that sometimes it appears the doj is not moving fast enough for us, we want them to make sure that if they move forward with any charges, that they have all of the information that they need for success at the end. i believe that the attorney general is listening and watching as well and that he will make the right decisions as it pertains to moving forward with the prosecution. >> well, we hope you are right. i want to shift, years we were talking about you serving him on forsman and i made the point that should the republicans take the house or the senate, there is a good chance these investigations will go away. i don't know if that point has been punctuated enough for a

lot of our voting electorate. i wanna talk about your senate campaign. you have spoken out about the slogan, defund the police, that's not a policy by anyone, but is certainly a slogan by activists. you have spoken out against this, but the fraternal order of police have endorsed your opponent who is a trump acolyte at this point, what do you find a more effective strategy, appealing to the politically homeless right now, who might hate donald trump, but they are still double down on republican policies, or is it more effective to inspire people and say that we will really imagine this democracy. i want to turn on voters into voters. what's been more effective to you? >> let me tell you this first. marco rubio is an enabler of our former president and i think all floridians need to understand that. he voted against an independent commission that would've had an equal number of republicans and

democrats, but the select committee is doing a good job and it's going to get to the bottom of everything that happened. tiffany, as someone who has worked as a social worker and a career law enforcement officer, if anyone bother to talk to some of the most vulnerable communities, the most vibrant communities, they would tell you that they do not want to defund the police. as a matter of, fact they would like to see more police because they believe that if we take away resources from public safety, they would become more vulnerable. but they have made clear to, me and i clearly understand based on my decades of experience is that they want to be treated with dignity and respect as we all do. our focus needs to be making sure in law enforcement that they had the best training and best equipment, and making sure that they reflect the diversity of the communities in which they serve.

we're also talking to people about the cost of gas, the price of goods and services, inflation, things that keep people up only it. things that marco rubio will talk about, but has not done much about. so don't just listen to what he says, watch what he does in florida has a better alternative if you are interested in this campaign, please go to val demings.com. >> i want to clarify for our viewers that defined the police does not mean less, police it's reimagining how budgets are distributed comes to police. a lot of people hear the slogan and misunderstand it. >> and i say this. if we are going to solve america's problems, then let's have the brightest in the best in policing,let's so make sure that america as a nation is serious about mental health funding. drug addiction funding, make

sure that we are investing into public education in our schools. we have a housing crisis. it's not about taking resources from any of those programs, but it's about holding america to its promise in all of those areas. >> absolutely, thank you for making that point. i want to shift a little bit because flipping through vanity fair, i notice that this model type badass woman on the cover, i love this photo of you. you look amazing. i'm looking at this photo and you are a woman who served at the highest ranks of florida law enforcement. you are trying to run for senate in a state where confederate flags fly freely. the state has restricted lgbtq restricting rights, voting rights, and many officials have called the mob attack on the

capitol legitimate political discourse. what i ask about is your path of victory in a state like florida. >> florida is my home state, it's a place where i was born and raised. i was raised in a rural part of florida. my mother was a made in my father was a janitor. if there is a true american dream story, it is mine. now, i do believe that every person, boy and girl, men and women, regardless of who they were, their sexual orientation, how much money they have, they deserve an opportunity to succeed. remember, that little black girl who grew up in florida went on to become the chief of police serving in the u.s. house and now running for the united states senate. only in america is that story possible. i do believe that when i look at the successes that i've been able to have in the state of florida that there is more to come. i'm talking to people about things that matter to, them not picking and choosing winners

and losers like my opponent politics for 23 years, republicans ran through. they had no problem when the unions were funding different campaigns, they had no problem, who cares, let's make teachers the enemy. no problemwe will make things td rational, we will make them sound irrational to our voting base who lacks intellectual curiosity and does not seem to have -- i think the democratic voters base has a little more democrats -- intellectual curiosity. here -- to tanya brown was sworn to the court this week. there is a celebration of all these beautiful black woman in a city of new orleans who are

by all means on the front lines of democracy every day fighting every day and putting their lives on the line every day to save yet again this republic. what is your message to them, would've democrats done with the pilot we gave them. >> girls all over this nation should be extremely proud, and then by the way, of judge ketanji brown jackson, who grew up in florida, let's talk about florida again. grew up in miami, and now is an associate justice on the supreme court. only in america. i understand what you are saying, i talk to my constituents and people throughout the state, and i traveled from the panhandle down to the keys talking about their frustration. but let me be clear about this. democrats will be on the right side of history because it is the democratic party that is

fighting for our to moxie. fighting for the middle class, fighting for our seniors, working to protect social security and medicare and lower the costs and keep us safe. republicans have taken a vacation or they are permanently removed from any of those things. yes, we have the majority, but the filibuster, as you know, has been an obstacle to moving forward in agenda. sitting in the senate right, now the john lewis voting rights act, the women's health protection act, the equality act, the reauthorization of the balance against women's act. we cannot move those things forward because of the filibuster. let's get rid of it. we have got to expand and maintain the majority in the senate so that we can get things done. remarkable needs to go, i like me and the senate and we will begin that process. >> where we have a time

congresswoman, but thank you so much. best of luck to you and your campaign. programming note for you at home, if you missed, that you can catch this past tuesday's last-minute hearing featuring the testimony from former tacitly houston in its entirety today at 6 pm eastern. the 24th and fifth hearings will be tomorrow, and on the states he lost, you can see it all right here on msnbc. don't go anywhere, because coming up, next some companies are offering to pay abortion travel costs for their employees, but some of those in companies also supported antiabortion candidates. we're going to talk about that on the other side of the break, stay with us. stay with us and forms an antibacterial shield. try parodontax active gum health mouthwash.

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only from us... xfinity. >> as the country begins to grapple with the realities roe v. wade being overturned, some companies seem to be stepping up. disney, microsoft, in the amazon of all publicly pledged to cover travel expenses so that -- all four companies have also donated to supporters of state abortion bans, the very laws that will make such travel necessary. that's according to reporting by insider in bloomberg, which nbc news has not yet independently verified. according to insider, at&t actually top of this list with more than $1 million to antiabortion law behind trigger laws in 13 states. we did reach out to all four companies, none responded except for microsoft, who provided a statement that reads,

in part, microsoft will continue to do everything we can under the law to support our employees and access in critical health care. microsoft did not respond to our question about contributions to anti abortion law makers. joining me now is sacha thompson, she is the ceo and founder of the equity equation. so happy to have you here sacha. i want to get into this because at&t plans to provide financial support for employees to have to travel. and we just said that they are part of the largest corporately traded -- i'm just curious, what role does the private sector play in creating this landscape and what is their responsibility in fixing. it you can't dance with the devil and the -- at the same time. >> absolutely. thank you for having me. this is something that has come to the forefront in the last few years. prior to the summer of 2022, sorry, 2020, companies were not making these types of statements. they are now feeling like they

have to step up. they have to say something. that part of this is new. giving to political campaigns is not. that has always been happening, and we are now at a time where employees and customers, and clients, they are asking for more transparency. that is how we are starting to see both sides at this coin being played. we are starting to see, wait a minute, you cannot say one thing here and then act another way. we are starting to have this reconciliation that is taking place in corporate spaces. >> and this reconciliation, there's always a discussion, should we look to the private sector to write this course? they have too much of a role in shaping policy, it's the governments idea -- job to do that. but even when you talk about the private sector, to get benefits, i have to go travel to get an abortion, it is very

invasive. one, if this is your boss that i have to have an abortion, and then the something is everyone has an office job. i hate that they will be able to do that. not everyone has that level of employment. it is still seeming like outside of being invasive, you are still having to get permission to go and govern your own -- what happens to your own body. is there a different path the private sector can take to make it a little bit less invasive. >> quite a few companies are saying that there are challenges there, especially if they are dealing with issues of trust and psychological safety and lacking what is in the corporate space. many are looking to see how can we take ourselves out of this process, how can we have our employees work directly with their health care providers. or is there a process we can go through where we don't know with their medical condition is, and they are just asking for a medical travel assistance. they are putting other types of medical travel activities under

that umbrella. they are starting to look at ways to review their policies and see how they can help with some of the privacy, but this is so new that many of them are still trying to figure this out. >> and we will keep our eye on all of this. i was wondering, what happens when you come back? do you have to show proof that you had an abortion? it all seems like a quagmire. we will keep these conversations, going you will certainly be back to join us. coming, up a horrific scene in texas. more than 50 people packed into a tracker trailer coming to the u.s. for a better life are now dead. how and why did this happen? we have to hear about this, so please stick around for the next segment. r th next segment

>> i was in the airport for over five hours, maybe six. >> our flights canceled, and we

are trying to figure out how to rebook. there's no one really kind of assisting in trying to help us figure out how to get home. >> i see my flight's canceled. >> i'm not making any more plans for travel. >> all right, we will get to the migrant story in a second, but we are in the middle of the busiest holiday travel weekend of the year so far. i know that that testimony you just heard sounds very familiar to a lot of you. airports are in absolute chaos after thousands of flights were canceled in the late this week. in a letter sent tuesday, bernie sanders urged people to judge to take action, including requiring airlines to issue refunds for passengers who flights are delayed for more than an hour. seriously, why is it so hard to travel these days. joining me now to talk about this is charles liotta, he's the president cofounder of travelers united, and davy sutton, she is a travel correspondent. davey, i want to start with you.

there were over 5800 delays, 639 cancellations for flights landing or departing from the country. traveling socks right now, and it's only going to get worse. i'm just curious why that is and how soon it will get better. and, will i make my flight of new orleans tomorrow? that is my most important question. >> you have all of the questions, welcome the hot mess expressis air travel right now! there is a combination of issues with rising fuel costs, inflations, shortages in flames -- planes and staff. after, that the expected cancellation and delays of weather due to the summer storm. it's really about supply and demand. also, reasons for why the prices are really high right now. it's not just here in the u.s., but there are disruptions in europe, which came to a head before. >> wow. charles, you just heard david say that is due to a lack of

pilots. experts say that they're simply are not enough people signing up to the pilots. the shortage has been forecasted since 2018 in 2019, but the panda -- pandemic expedited the issue. any idea as to why people aren't signing up to be pilots, and how should the airlines be addressing these issues? >> first of, all i just think that the airlines do have a shortage of pilots, and they should find ways to get more pilots quickly. this whole section of the whole hoopla about flights being canceled, it is really coming out of the blue and it's not that different from way back in 2019. we have always had the same kind of problems during a summer period. and we still have the problems whether we have pilots or not. it goes all the way down to flight attendants, tsa people, it goes to people at airports,

and people who deliver luggage and so on. all of these people are shorthanded and they're working their butts off trying to get people going. if we look at the actual figures right now, if we look at 2019, it was only something like 2% of the people who were actually canceled. when we look at today, we're only up to 2.8%. it is not very many people, but boy if you are stuck, you are really stuck. >> and i have to tell, you i think we all got used to quiet empty airports during the pandemic. watching the pandemonium unfold at these pan -- airports, i don't care if i am 1%, 2%, 0.9 9%, i want to get where i'm going. given that, what can travelers do? it seems like we have no recourse. unless you fly private, you are kind of subjected to these

random cancellations. >> yeah, so, at this point that is the position we are in. i'm gonna have people rethink their approach to traveling this summer. be flexible, consider maybe not traveling if you can drive, if the trip is less than seven or eight hours, yes, i know you'll say feels expensive for the red, trump but that's part of what is making fights expensive. you are taking out the gamble, the x-factor, the risk and if you are delayed for eight hours, you could have already been there. account for these, allays it's part of what it takes to travel right now. it is very uncomfortable to fly. planning to fly at least a day before you have to be somewhere. in particular, if you have to travel to something that has a time without flexibility like a cruise departure, and wedding, or a festival activity, give yourself an extra buffer day to account for canceled and delayed flights.

finally, i will tell you that travel insurance, i'm a big advocate for travel insurance. it's kind of essential during the pandemic because there are so many moving parts that are not in our control. if you have travel insurance, you can be compensated for such losses light delayed in council flights, usually a couple of hundred bucks for your trouble in addition to other inconveniences. it's more affordable than people may think. to be five to 7% of your total trip cost although it might be a little bit more right now. >> i see you on the buffer -- i can't miss change action, tonight i have to be back in d.c. tomorrow. let's just hope that the flights are all moving on time. watch my twitter feed tomorrow. if i am, angry you will know what happened. thank you, sadly, i don't think these travel troubles are going away. we will see you next time. coming up for you guys at home, the tragedy at the border that is coming up after the break,

stay with us. stay with us

>> imagine being trapped inside an insulated hot box for hours in the sweltering texas heat with no windows, no air, no water, no relief. growing desperate as each hour seems to collapse your lungs more and more into your consciousness fades and you take your final desperate gasp for air. that unimaginable --

is a 53 people met their death this week and san antonio. why? they were fleeing their home countries and sought just a bit of humanity on the journey to america. they found only suffering instead, and sadly their story is not unique. since 2014, nearly 6000 people have died while migrating across the central and north america in the caribbean, that is according to the un. joining me now is the managing attorney of the -- defense unit at the -- murray so castro. thank you so much for being here. oftentimes we focus on policy, but think it's important for our viewers to focus on humanity here. i'm hoping, based on your work experience and the conversations you have had at the border and beyond, to explain to our viewers what this journey is like for people so desperate they risk this type of death for a better life. >> yes, hi, good morning tiffany.

i am bordered with -- one of the most dangerous cities of the world. some of my clients who come from countries like cameroon, guatemala, nicaragua, venezuela, cuba, they are coming to live another day. they are coming to where their government had tortured them, and they have one or two choices. they stay or possibly die, or they leave their country. any other country coming to the united states to seek asylum. that is something that our country has allowed and as welcomed all of these people with dignity until the trump administration implemented title 42, the remain-in-mexico program. these programs have made it impossible for these people to be able to come into the country and so their desperation is exactly what happened in san antonio. >> it's very tragic, you have

53 people died in such a tragic way, it's so tragic, so much suffering, it is hard to imagine. i saw all of the empathy that people had for ukrainians coming to this country, and i thought about the people who were feeling the same thing traveling to america for a better life. i saw the people protesting the woman's right to choose. they claim to care so much about children. and the children traveling to this country from central america, i wonder where the empathy and compassion goes for these young kids. explain to us what impact the supreme court has on the children who are coming here for a better life. >> the children were one of the exceptions. they allowed children to come especially while they were coming by themselves. that would remain the same way. the supreme court decision that

recently came out, that will allow the president to eliminate in ppe. that will be very helpful for all of my clients who are currently in the mpp program. those are my clients who are seeking asylum, coming from countries where their life is in danger, but then they're put in worst danger in a desperate situation of being in shelters that are overcrowded where people are dying and where no one even notices the body has been dead for three days. they are going to -- as soon as the biden administration will expedite the decision. they will be able to enter the country and united states. unfortunately, because of title 42, which we are hoping that it will end up being resolved the -- program was able to go to the supreme court, and the supreme court will give them the right to get rid of title 42. that will open up the borders again and allow people to come in properly and with dignity

without having to find a way to come in. some of my clients have jumped over the border, wall which is 30 feet tall because they cannot come in. and so we hope that the biden administration will be able to start implementing with a promise they would do without having to risk their life to come in. >> and when i see folks asking how the suspect a driver of the truck, who was driving the truck was allegedly under the influence of meth when police encountered him after he talked to people. i don't even know what accountability looks like here, but what does it look like to you? >> i think he will definitely be facing a life sentence without parole and possibly even the death penalty. one portly, what they have to find out is who he was working for.

it goes way beyond him. he was just a driver involved in a bigger circle of people. and just knowing how people are. it's unfortunate, because people are looking at this just in money, not in human life. >> well we will certainly keep our eye on this, like i, said the stories are sadly far too common. thank you so much marysol castro for being with us, and i hope people watching will extend humanity to everyone who was trying to seek a better life, because this country has not been too kind to a lot of communities of color throughout history. so we should welcome people just as much as we welcome people from ukraine. thank you so much for being here, the olympic gold medals list britney griner's -- we're gonna talk about the case against her in efforts to get her home. keep it right here. it right here

all right we have a lot to discuss is week as a trial for w a va star brittney griner began on monday. and another, newest kevin durant wants to toss the deuces to than that. joining me now is the co-host of, brother from another, on peacock my fellow sports expert and sports analyst michael smith. michael, so happy to have you here with me this morning. i know you are very busy on saturdays, as a basketball coach yourself. so glad we were able to snag your time. i want to get right into it, thank you. i want to get right into it because britney griner's trial for allegedly taking hashish oil into russia began yesterday. it has been 135 days, mike, since she was taken into custody and she faces ten years in prison if convicted. we know this is going to be a sham trial. i am just curious, i don't want her name to fall out the headlines. when we saw the footage of her, and photos of her being escorted, that is what trauma looks like. and seeing this woman, this

black queer woman, in cuffs, being let around like that is heartbreaking. so i just i'm curious, from your perspective of the sports world do to keep her name in the headlines, and put pressure on this administration to make her, and keep her a priority? >> continue the conversation. continue to apply pressure, continue to bring awareness. i'm not sure that awareness is the issue right now, because we have a lot of people both in the wnba, and to a less secure extent the nba, but across the sports world to have britney griner and her wife cherelle top of mind right now. the united states claims to be prioritizing her situation. and i will take the u.s. government at its word, but about fear is that russia may value this black woman, more than the united states does. but, i know it is complicated as well. i do understand because apparently russia is demanding victor boot who is serving 25

years case believes that is time served enough. trevor reed was released and april, that took him almost three years. and there's another marine named paul whelan who has been wrongfully detained since 2018. so maybe there is a situation complicated though it is, where there is a two for one exchange. griner and paul whelan for this victor boot, this arm stealer. but, this trial like you said, it is a sham. it is less than 1% rate of acquittal for criminal defendants in russia. so she is going to be sentenced in a trial that is going to last another two months, over 0.7 grams of marijuana. so, she this is not a large distributor, we know. that we know at this, as this is hostage diplomacy as they call him. and so it is really just a matter of, one version of

britney griner is going to return to us andk four times for south korea for the phoenix mercury playing basketball in russia. >> right. that is the exact point i want to bring up. my awesome colleague abby philip at another network did this great interview with her, take a listen. >> i like to be very frank with my wife and authentic when i do write her, and i told her i said, i saw that picture and honestly for a second i thought you were insane. i said, you know it kind of took me back and i told her you know, i just wanna tell you one thing, if you are losing your mind just be gracious with yourself because you are human and that is okay. >> it is just awful, mike, when i think about what her wife is going through. and this disparity between -- i do want to say, you brought up the point about the pain disparity. in bc sports, you know where

you work simone biles, megan rapid i'll joined olympians to receive the presidential medal of freedom. which is wonderful, a wonderful honor. but it does not do much for the pay disparity by any means. shifting gears though, could that be the reason for kevin durant's wanting to be treated, or is this brother just trying to get a chip? >> i don't know what kevin durant wants. i don't know that anybody who doesn't speak to kevin durant on the regular, even they might be confused as to what kevin durant wants. at this point, are you really going in and the sports, fall i love it. >> well, i am an expert, mike. this is what i do. this is what we talk about, at some sports experts is clue it we talked about. >> yeah, so you tell me what you think it is. i mean, i think that kevin durant for some, even though he is already a two-time champion a two time finals mvp in the league mvp, for some you just can't win for losing. i think that he is searching for something, some kind of already decided to assignis

whatever narrative they wanted to him and everything that he has done since. whether that is in brooklyn, and wherever he ends up next. so no matter how brilliant performer he is, no matter what he does, you're gonna have people that have already made up their mind about kevin durant. and i whatever he's doing, is not to try to silence those critics in those doubters. he's gonna be great where we, goes where he goes is gonna be an instant contender for a championship. so it's a matter whether team can offer the britain next, and put him on a contract for four years mind you. and the crazy thing is that they just a cool, they said they want to trade. so you can be interesting to see when another team offered. some >> yeah, and if he's looking for validation, we've had 11 buses durant on the show. his mother is as big a fan. he is getting all the validation he can use. so we will see where he lands. exactly, exactly. i want to talk about deshaun watson, because this case is so wild and unfortunate. i'm just curious your thoughts

here on deshaun watson. i don't believe the nfl has handed out any punishment. what might that punishment look like, or what should look like? >> well, that one is complicated. i don't have enough time for that one. so it's really, the fascinating thing is going to be this independent arbitrator. so there is a new process right now for the way used to be, tiffany, used to be when roger ellis judge jury and executioner, he wants no part of that. so he in the nfl players association, the lead in the nfl players association, have jointly appointed a former federal judge sue robinson. she, had three days of hearings last. week the nfl present his case. the nfl asked for an indefinite suspension of at least one year. but based on the nfl's case, and based on precedent, and based on the fact that the nfl has three honors at least. robert, craft jerry snyder, whose organization was the subject of hearings on capitol hill, that he wouldn't show up for. based on, that the punishment that they are asked looking for

from this independent arbitrator could be out of whack with president. so, my guess if i had a bed, i think it's gonna come down to between six and ten games. but here's the thing, if the judge, former judge finds that there was a violation of the personal conduct policy, which there was, at minimum a violation of personal conduct policy, then that discipline can be appealed to, wait for a project at all. so roger kudela overturn the first instance of this new process, will he overturn through robinson's decision? that is a sticky situation for robert goodell to be in. but this is all about offense. you and i both know that >> yes, absolutely. optics for certain people, not optics for how we feel, that's for. sure to story i'm actually filling in for michael smith and he's on vacation. i will be joined by doctor nathan johnson, filling in for brother from another, because i'm a sports expert. that's what we. do so you don't commit, that will keep you posted with. that second to you, thank you so much michael smith for being

here. i really appreciate, you and don't go anywhere at home because there is much more to come in the next hour across connection. including widespread efforts to criminalize women seeking abortions and states that impose bans. we're gonna talk about that, and we'll break down some of the explosive testimony from former white house aide cassidy hutchison. a new allegations of witness tampering. i've got two experts to discuss all that, and much more right here across conduction. stay tuned. scus all that, and much more righ here across conduction stay tuned

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jam-packed hour of the cross connection. we begin this hour by the sectioning tuesday's explosive january 6th hearing, and the aftermath that unfolded. >> cassidy, keep in touch with me. we are going to get charges of average climb imaginable if we make that movement happen. >> i remember thinking that moment, mark needs to snap out of this, and i don't have to snap him out of this. but he needs to care. i overheard the president say something to the effect of, i think they have weapons. they are not here to hurt me, take that bags away. let people in, they can march to the capital from here. >> i think most americans know that attempting to influence witnesses to testify and truthfully, presents very serious concerns. >> so here is what we can now confirm. cassidy hutchinson was one of the witnesses that trump allies

sought to trump or with. but witnessed came bearing may not stop there. trump's political organization and allies are paying, or have promised to pay, legal fees fees for several witnesses before the committee. even hutchison's original journey, and she later fired, was not only recommended to her by two former trump aides, but also heat for about donald trump's own political action committee. but there's even more news. since tuesday's hearing, the select committee has subpoenaed trump's white house counsel and the doj is taking deeper into their january 6th investigation, issuing subpoenas to two arizona state senators who may have corresponded with trump's lawyers. joining me now is the bringer of all the funk, roland martin, host of the daily digital show hashtag rolling martin unfiltered. and, we haven't heard from one of our favorites in the long, time jassy rots. he is an attorney at ross law, and co-host of the break dances with wolves podcast on indigenous by radio. so happy to have you guys here. roland, i'm gonna start with. you casting a distance testimony is the strongest evidence that we've had, the

president had direct and advanced warning on the day of that attack, that his crowd was prepared for violence and that he instructed those people to march on the capitol. indifferent that those weapons might be used there, and even -- to remove the mags howell hutchinson's testimony effect public opinion, but most importantly, how is it can affect the doj? because we are waiting for what are you doing over there. >> well remember, general garland said that his prosecutors were watching the hearings intently and this shortly thereafter they made their request for a lot of the committees documents and then -- thompson said hey we saw the hearing on, will literally get them to you and so that set a whole heck of a lot that they were, the committee was also serving as a secondary investigative body. i do think it is gonna be critical, and as you see, each one of these people are seeing how it literally unhinged donald trump's. but again, as i keep saying

tiffany, the thing has expanded just beyond him. it shows you how those in trump world also have been a significant part of the cover-up. and so, to have someone literally sitting in the room, mike meadows wanted her everywhere so that she is someone who has had access to all of these spaces. and now it forces the others in the room to now decide, do you testify in perjury yourself, that is why many of them don't want to testify. >> right, absolutely. jesse, you are an attorney. i am just curious, what does justice and accountability look like here? because the committee is not here to say, guilty or innocent, but they are here to tell the story. and to document what happened on that day. so when we look at two different justice systems here in america, there has to be some justice or accountability. what does that look like? >> good morning tiffany, good morning roland. yeah, but i'm a critical criminal defense attorney. and so i'm always looking at it

from, right now as roland said, there's definitely indications, as we already know people know for a long time that trump's unscrupulous, conniving, really scary dude. however, being scary is not a crime. and currently, as it has it right now, i don't believe that there is sufficient evidence that there could be criminal charges on anything other than witness tampering, which i will get you into second. but a lot of this case regarding january 6th has already been litigated in a case called one juma versus trump. look at, up one universes. trump accounts from the sixth circuit and a lot of what trump said was very very similar to january six. and it was deemed us protected by the first amendment. what they will have to be in order to actually get trump on the charges of inciting a riot, or sedition, or anything like that, is what the feds actually do. which is to build a case, which

is with surveillance. and you know, getting somebody like rudy giuliani who is currently protected by attorney client privilege, getting him to link on to trump. so until that point, justice is going to have been to be something that looks like, we are gonna find a way for this guy not to run for president again. because currently, i don't believe that there is sufficient evidence for charges to be pressed. >> go ahead roland. but you've got to remember, you've got expand the saying. you have to wristband this. first of all you're john about obstruction of congress, second of all we need to about the electors, presenting these false electors. look, that is also documentation. remember, you also have a grand jury investigation going on in georgia. wet he literally was saying, let's go find me 11,000 more votes. he was literally trying to get them to fraudulently obtain votes. and so, that is the case that they are building. so you have multiple, multiple ways in which donald trump is

showing criminal activity. and so, they are picking away, they're pecking away. enforcing now, those around him. now you have this white house counsel who has agreed, supposedly to testify with limited questions. and so now you're gonna have that going on. and so, again with they are doing is very smart. but they are also showing the public how far this individual in his supporters are willing to go to subvert united states constitution. that is significant. this is far beyond richard nixon. that they have gone. >> go ahead jazzy. >> yeah, in that regard, again i limit to january six. i agree regarding georgia, and actually agree regarding the witness which chant. bring i think elizabeth cheney is doing an amazing job. she shown herself to be absolutely brilliant. and if this is a liz equal to the state, if they're able to

produce the goods on the witness tampering. the first thing that i say when i get a kind of the kind of a sort of case, it don't contact anybody. don't contact the alleged victims, don't do any of that stuff. if in fact that is happening, there is actually a substantial case for the witness tampering. but in regards to january 6th, there will be a difficult time showing a key word, nexus, between trump specifically and any accidents actions that were taken. the next assessment been shown yet, just like in one. goma again, this was already litigated in large part. >> all, right well i want to pray really quickly for you guys, just we can paint the picture again for america on how ridiculous and unhinged this president was. this is testimony from cassidy hutchinson. discussing trump's rage on that day, take a listen i will talk about on the other side of the break. >> i first noticed, there was ketchup dripping down the wall and there was a shattered porcelain plate on the floor. the valley had articulated that the president was extremely

angry at the attorney generals ap interview. and a thrown his lunch against the wall. which was causing them to have to clean up. so i grabbed a towel, and started wiping the catch about the wall to help the ballet out. >> and much of miss hutchinson, was this the only instance that you are aware of where the president through dishes? >> it's not. through dishes >> okay, roland, my mind. i just imagine if president barack obama was trying to choke out secret service agents, and tossing dishes across the floor kept running down the wall. this is my challenge with this entire january six committee investigation, because you can not show all of these white men breaking the law with impunity, and then show me people doing ten years in jail over a dime back. that is a democracy that will fall. it is hard to encourage people

to preserve a system that does not value them, but values others. and lets them get away with damn near murder. how do you go out and present this to the public in a way that they find adjustable, and inspires them to fight this kind of ridiculous disproportionate, punishing crystal criminal justice system that only punches simon celebrates and it rewards the others with cable news contracts and book deals? >> because what you have to do is show, what is the effect of these unhinged, deranged, diluted, sick, to minted, evil people in public office. you show them, this is what stephen miller has previously done. this man, there is no bottom. people kept saying for four years, oh they reach the bottom. there is no bottom. and so beloved understand, if you allow trump, and all of his ifs to stay in power, than they are going to unleash only hell on this country. we are already seeing it. the supreme court decisions,

they've accepted this case out of north carolina. well the legislators could literally say, ignore state courts. and so, everybody who is watching, let me be real clear. playing games if you want to, but these people, if you think what they've already done is evil, wait until they possibly get back in controlling the house in the senate. don't play games. folks better understand that black people have understood historically what it meant when the entire apparatus has been against them, they are going to be targeting those who do not agree with them. and it is not going to be pretty. and you do not want to be on the wrong side of, oh man i set it out. and allowed it to happen. no, lks have got to strap up and get ready and target these folks politically at the ballot box. >> fight at the ballot box, absolutely. roland martin, we'll be back later. thank you so much jassy rossi, haven't seen in a while solely will come back more often.

now that the news cycle is back to being more domestic, i will say. all right thank you jassy. and a programming note, if you missed it earlier this week and catch the most recent generous experience in their entirety beginning today at 6 pm eastern and all day tomorrow, starting here at 1 pm on msnbc. coming, up how state-by-state abortion bans could land women, especially women of color, in jail. we're gonna talk about that on the other side, you don't wanna miss. it stay with us. talk about that on talk about that on the other side so they shoot it. miss hmm... dave says “feed it?” and dave feeds it. it stay with us. just then our hero has a breakthrough. "shoot it, camera, shoot a movie!" and so our humble team saves the day by working together. on miro.

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we only wanted to make the world better. >> better? >> better number means better for everyone. it always means worse for some. >> as the realities of the scotus's decision to reverse roe, social media started comparing america to the fictional gilead in the homemade -- handmaid's tale. the horror of that dystopian future actually happened in american history, and a lot of it was state sanctioned like the black enslaved girls and women who were raped and forced to give birth only to have their children taken from them and sold to white families or the nearly 70,000 women who underwent a forced sterilization in over 30 states in the last century, or the

story of lotus fischer, who in 2017 was forced with second degree murder for the stillborn delivery of her child. the difference between handmaid's tale and actual history is that the real life victims were mostly women of color. joining me now is jesse washington, and emma rosters a staff attorney for national -- for pregnant women who is a part of that case. i will start with you, jessica, because when it comes to prosecuting abortion cases, black women and other women of color and disproportionately criminalized. jessica, how should we brace ourselves for what is coming. >> thank you for having me. also, i think we have to brace ourselves. before, raphael we have these laws where black women in particular were already charged for having stillbirth. there was a woman who was charged in 2019 and alabama, a

black woman, for being shot in the stomach and then not being able to carry the prospect -- pregnancy. these things have been happening, and we definitely have to be prepared that these will continue since roe fell and we have all of these data collections and prices centers. and be concerned about this being using as black women in particular and unite. >> i want to talk about-less fisher because the story was so awful. with a specialist impoverished woman who already had three children and then won a fourth child, she gave birth at home and was charged. they charged her phone and look to see if she had searched for plan b pills, all of this seems very dystopian. it seems like what we see fictionalized in the handmaid's tale.

could we talk about with that may look like in a post-roe society. >> i think that letitia's case serves as a harbinger of what we can expect as pregnancy criminalization increases in this country. luis was indicted not only on the basis of records showing that she had searched for abortion occasions, but also a widely discredited test called the one flip test the da clean showed that her stillborn baby had in fact taken a breath. only when my organization, national advocates for pregnant women, presented evidence that this test is so widely discredited in space time junk science that the second grand jury refused to indict her. as we, know black and brown women are already subjected to disproportionate rates of criminalization. we can expect those existing discrepancies to increase in the future. >> and that is a terrifying thought. the places that will detain you to provide abortion services are going to be so overrun.

it is not going to be abortion, but health care for women for things like stds and fertility care, even pregnancy continuation care, and so jessica, what impact do you think this will have, concerning the wealth gap in this country, but latino women, indigenous women,, even api women and even disenfranchised white women who rely on these types of outlets to help them as they navigate whatever is happening with their bodies. >> i think it's definitely going to have a hugely negative impact. i've been speaking with people, clinics are going to close because they are afraid of violating the law. clinics are no longer going to be operate in the states, and folks rely on a lot of these places not just for this clear, but also for basic health care services. there's a lot of research that shows that low income women get most of their health care at a lot of these places that

provide the full spectrum of reproduction health care. i think it will have hugely negative impacts based on speaking with folks on the ground. >> you know, here there have been 1300 prosecutions for miscarriages in united states and women of color are targeted in those. and abortion care is free and other nations and covered by public insurance. i'm curious and, what is the role of social policy in reducing the number of abortions if that is what people want to do. this is a part of an economic challenge. people are just having abortions freely, but sometimes it is them being handcuffed by their circumstances in this is their only path to survival. what can be done in terms of social and economic policy? >> it's no coincidence at the same states that have enacted abortion bans also have largely

failed to pass any kind of -- laws, failed to expand medicaid, and so these are states that are not only criminalizing abortion, but are providing all the necessary support with the pregnancies to term. we also know that one pregnancy and pregnancy outcomes are criminalized. it deters women from seeking medical care that they need. as a result, the rates of eternal mortality and morbidity suffer even more. >> that is so incredibly tragic. this conversation will continue many times as we continue seeing states enacting their trigger laws. i will have to have you both back. thank you so much jessica and emma for providing some very important context to this conversation. still to come across connection, our democracy is in danger. it may be up to young people to save us. we're going to discuss that later. first, the vice president is traveling to new orleans to take part in one of the country 's biggest celebrations a black

culture in music, the essence fast. we'll talk about that more after a quick break. after a quick break.

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lower. longer. leqvio. all right, jake, kendrick lamar, and beyoncé have all blesses with the music. but that doesn't even begin to put a dent in the massive catalog of black music and how that music inspired generations, and has been the soundtrack for multiple movements. and since we are here, in new orleans at the festival culture, where music is taking center stage, i want to discuss all of that. including the fact that vice president herself, kamala harris is joining us. or joining the music vest, back with me's role in martin a host of roland martin, and making her cross connection debut, i'm so excited to have nihilism on. she is a dj and host and new york city's power station, one of five point. that is the radio station. there thank you both for being. here i'll, obesity across connection debut, i have to ask you what is cracking in the

streets? i mean for, me i had just with kendrick lamar and stay say, the latest from his fifth and final studio album. it is amazing, i cannot stop listening to. i think a list of provides 100 items yesterday. but, what doesn't have irritation your neck of the woods? >> i definitely love kendrick lamar. we -- . >> now, like a grabbing a little bit of audio problems for you. we are going to try to fix. that so i'm gonna go to roland, because roland i don't have your kendrick brother, or wet. i mean beyoncé's from your home state, so i know you might love her. but i have to say, roll, and the new song. >> home town. >> that's your hometown, your hometown. girl your new song, you will break my soul, it speaks to a spirit. i listen to when i'm walking to work. but some people are quitting their jobs after that song job. so she really is reflecting the mood of the times, and the great resignation as it has been called.

but it isn't heavy rotation there because i want juggle new school? we >> will obviously, when you talk old-school, their eyes lee brothers are gonna be here tomorrow. and so, that seminal hit by the power is huge. but i think, people need to understand with music, music was the backbone of the black freedom movement. the nixon years, melee to jackson, aretha franklin. you go to the 70s, marvin gray, what's going on is still one of the most unbelievable albums in american history. stevie wonder's music. then you go into the 80s, public enemy, check distill out there doing it. then all the sudden you begin to see it weighing that social, cultural connection. and so when you talk about beyoncé song, when you talk about kendrick, john about common, you can talk about again. >> lizzo, all the great folks.

>> right. and what you're seeing, i think you'll see more of, those are gonna see more of a music reflection of the political upheaval and so, don't be surprised in the next six months to a year if you seem more female artists who have been incorporating the roe v. wade decision within their music. and so, i think that is absolutely going to happen. >> yeah, okay. najla, i hope you back with us. and we have worked out your audio. so, i want you to finish your thought because you are talking about kendrick and i wanna know if you agree with me that it is one of the fire albums. kendrick sonne another level right now, your thoughts? >> sorry about that. yeah, no kendrick's deadly animal know their level. i know that a lot of different feedback about it. people are not liking the project. but i think it is like an emotional amateur album. it's like a healing album. he talked a lot of things that black people go through, trauma wise as far as dealing with family issues, relationship issues. so i love kendrick's album, but

definitely beyoncé's break my soul, which is right on time. like, when she dropped the song it was completely relate-able. it is the message. like, it moves me. so i am happy that beyoncé is back and given us something. >> yeah, i agree. i mean i think anytime that. he yeah gopher will, and go for it. >> there's a surprise guest last night, lauren hill and -- onstage at. and even though that album is came out a long time ago. that album still resonates deeply with jerry show folks who are no longer 20, in their 40s with kids. because education miseducation hornell. and so for people have no understanding about black music, and now it's affecting black people black music has completely changed this nation. and even mickey idol was on the

cage,'s a country singer. so to understand how those lyrics, and what we go through infiltrates all of america music, i think it is critical. and of course, -- . >> go ahead hour. >>, sorry to piggyback off of what you said role in. the score by the ages is one of the classic k-pop albums. it is the score, it is not the nomadic. so if you want to look at black culture, and what kind of grew with one hip-hop is today. the futures is obviously one of them, and then the miseducation barnhill really depicts the plight of women womanhood. you know as your teen, still with a, of dealing with it coming into your self-worth. and having a baby, you know stuff like that. so yeah, good music last. forever >> and janet jackson tonight. >> yes, listen. no it's gonna stop me from saying janet tonight. i have to say, i missed last

night because i love my crosscut actually are some much i was in my hotel prepping for the show. so i just could not sling last night. i know, why that's why when i ask. you because a lot of people were tweeting about nikki minaj's performance last night that essence fast. and the tweets were not kind. so i'm just curious, since you were there what was your take on her performance? >> okay, listen. i like him to saint nick images music. i was there. the video intro was fantastic. i left after ten minutes. -- and again, nikki i love you. but when i come to a concert, i ain't trying to hear you sing to records. i need to hear using. and that was part of the deal. great presentation, great visuals, but boo. when you hit the superdome acing. niles came out before, her and somebody asked if she lip thinking, i said no no. my man is actually singing.

new addition will be singing. so artists, do not hit the stage. we don't do singing to records, i can do that at home. >> yeah, well okay. i have to go back and look at the tweets because people were not happy with. it but before i let you go, i do want you take rolling. because vice president kamala harris is. here she is going to be interviewed by keke palmer. it's an interesting take on such a serious newsweek to have her sit down with an actress to, i don't think is the most politically astute are engaged perhaps. what is your take on that route of interviewing here before black women who have been on the frontline of democracy for so long, who are so desperate and eager to support her in that work that she does. >> well, i think he yesterday. she is participating at mcdonald's featured 22 events. and, remember he has been on various shows. he represents 100 young women who are not interested in politics.

and so i do think that it is interesting when you have someone who can bring that perspective, who can say hey, i don't know that some looking forward to a type of question that she is going to ask. but i do know key personally and so she is someone who is interested in learning more about the issues, and getting more involved. i've actually seen her, and if i'm correct, she was doing some stuff i think when i was here in georgia in 2020. and in o softer in the runoff. so, that as i look at it. as i hope the white house uses that to engage a group of young women who are not politically active. we lived this. you are in this, you live and breathe it. there's all watching the young sisters so i think he will resonate with them. >> yeah, okay. we're gonna talk about young people next who might not be as engaged. so on that day, not, we have 30 seconds left. we're little over time, just your thoughts on young people's engagement in the civic engagement right now.

do young folks here talking to, you and hanging out, with are they engaged and ready for this fight, or are they kind of like i'm a little over it because of this constant trauma in this country? >> i think that a lot of times young people just don't know what steps they can do, and can take. it seems like it is out of our hands. but we are definitely concerned, and more than anything i think we are just trying to keep our sanity through these times. because not only are we in a recession, you know a lot of us just graduate from college, we're trying to figure it out. so we are coming to age in middle of a world we have never seen before. >> all right, well we're gonna have that conversation up next and hopefully your friends are tuning. in you are right, absolutely. thank you so much role in, martin and alex. simone so happy major debut, you have to come back. and don't go anywhere because msnbc reports with alex witt, more revelations about trump's alleged efforts to overthrow the 2020 election are coming out of january six hearings. but will it discourage him from making a presidential run in

2024? that is coming up at noon. but first, young people are out here marching in protesting and they are going to save all of us at the voting booths this november. right? we hope. we are gonna talk about that after the break. hope. we are gonna talk about that after the break. after the break.

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with 20 grams of protein for muscle health. versus 16 grams in ensure high protein. boost® high protein also has key trients for immu. bot® high protein. all right you turnover the 2022 midterms is on track to match 2018's record breaking turnout that delivered democrats that house. that is according to a response into harvard poll. but that same study showed that 42% of young voters don't think their votes make a difference. i'm here to tell you, that is simply not true. in 2020, young voters back to biden by 25 point margin, which helped lead him to victory. and we all the polls, many young people have been in the streets mobilizing, and fighting for justice. but i have to say, we need a lot more. with so much at stake, the question is, will young people save us. this is a young person's game. joining me now is nora getachew ceo do something that work, and chris smalls interim president

of the amazon labor union. thank you both for being here. dinner i wanted to start with. you you know, i think a lot of young people don't necessarily connect the issues in their daily life with politics. so what are some issues that impact young people, and what are some issues that young people care about that they may not be making that connection? >> thanks so much for having me on today, tiffany. you know your last segment, najla me the right point and i wanted to start there. young people, like you said are very passionate. and they care about causes, they care about a democracy that is accessible, representative and equitable. they care about access to mental health support. we've all been living through a pandemic, and young people are coming of age and a moment where there is an economic downturn coming, where there is uncertainty about educational opportunity, and where they don't have economic autonomy. and so i think when we look at young people, and i do that through the lens of running through something that. like the largest organization dedicated young people to take engagement, what we see is that young people are passionate about causes, but a third of

young people aged 13 to 25, are just confused about what to do. so they know that saving the planet is important. they know that having this democracy the represents them is important, but then there is this moment where they are having to look in the mirror and say, but who is letting us sit at the table? who is giving our power in order to make a difference? and so that is why we are here to do with do something, is really be this activation hug hub for young people. so that they don't care what the causes that matter, but they understand the system. democracy, that actually affects their ability, and controls their ability to make changes on those. counts as >> well chris, either way brandi went to invite you to the table, you put your own table. i love your story, so i'm very happy to have you making a debut today this morning on the cross connection. you go up in jersey, pursued a career as a rapper, even toured miguel. and then you started working at amazon, and you are essentially fired for organizing. and you fall back, and you said no that's not gonna work for me, and you unionist. i mean, you toppled a corporate giant, so to speak to speak on behalf of workers and maintain

workers rights. i'm curious, for you because that is a representative organization. when you can have a say in what your work life looks like, much our presented of democracy says, what your government can look like. i'm curious your thoughts on young people getting involved and what messages and two young people who think, oh my vote doesn't really make a. defense >> yes, well definitely that time is now. i think the pandemic really opened up the eyes in this country, especially for us deemed as essential workers. to be put in a position where we don't have a voice. we don't have a say, the government pretty much told us we are essential, workers will go to work. well you know, the country is being shut down, and we are working during this deadly pandemic. we had to create our voice and the companies, the bosses, the corporations that oblast, they had a take care of us. and when i realize that we added have too much of a say

when they terminated me, i realized that's coming together collectively to bargain, and bringing people together, we realize that bringing people together we had power when we come together. and that is what the new generation, they had to lead the way. this is something that is unprecedented in the times that we live in, and my message to the young people is, you know this is our moment to really take control of what our future looks like in the society that we are trying to form and shape right now. >> yeah, i just love. i am a fan, brother. i love what you did at amazon. and even what happened with meat bill, that is all politics. you know, in some states judges are elected. you can shape, it's about reimagined what democracy looks like, and that's why young people have to be inspired to do. jim nora, i also think that it is a lack of knowledge around civics. voter turnout was very low in the midterms, particularly in the state of georgia. this is a crucial senate race,

as you know herschel walker will square off with raphael warnock. thankfully raphael warnock was ahead by ten points in the polls there. but when you get to turnout, young people they did not show up at the polls. when it came to the primary. even putting it on our screen there, then you see that they represent only 4.1% of the vote. when you look at another key state like pennsylvania, we are to break down the numbers but it shows that we will campaign spend money on, young people are last. they are just not a priority. and so, these two things are helping a small group of people introduced policies that do not serve the masses. your thoughts, their, on what can be done about that? >> that is such a important point that you raise, tiffany. what i would say is, there's so much opportunity. so the young viewers are watching, know this, you are creating this new american majority. between the 2020 election in the 2024 election, 17 million young people will enter our

electorate. the face of our lecture it will forever change. and so i want to encourage all young people, one understand that there is incredible distrust in the process. but be clear, it is our responsibility to learn how the process works. so in your seats, you can understand how you register to vote online, vote early. many states have automatic voter registration, and early voting. stu schools that make voting more accessible. we need to make sure that we are demystifying democracy and people. you spoke about civics education, i used to read an office of a national nonprofit focused on getting this civics in. schools the reason that young people down our sand how democracy works is kids were not to get to them. so we have an obligation as a society, and a country, to make sure that our education system includes that fundamental understanding of how does a bill becoming a law, school has not rock if you will. and then we also know that this democracy is for the young people. so i want them to care about the causes, but they also can't be slacked of us. so i don't i'm tweeting, or instagram-ing their way to the election. that is a tool, in the toolbox

for sure. but we need them to do is register to vote, vote early, make sure that they are staying engaged, and that they keep voting. because change doesn't happen just in that first time. >> yeah, exactly. it is >> a -- >>. we're unfortunately at a time. chris smalls, thank you for being here. chris you will have to come back. i love what i see on my screen now. a standoff of key election information, with our plan your vote to it which help you cast your ballot in the midterm election with information on registration headlines, mail-in voting options, want to bring with you on election day, and more. you don't to show up and not have what you need. that's nbc news.com and plan your vote now. and we've seen the means about then elephants revenge, but the real story around this majestic creatures is even more dramatic. details coming, up stay with us. y with us

if you are on twitter, you likely heard the outlandish story of an elephant reportedly trampling an indian woman to death only to show up to a funeral and stomp on her again. soon after, some twitter user speculated the woman was helping -- that's why she was trampled. people quickly made comical

memes siding with the elephant. they were in less and it made for a lot of fodder. i will say, i even laughed that a lot of these myself. but according to snopes, there's no actual evidence that the woman who was killed was working, and the real story is likely much more complicated than that. i want to get into that to talk about these beautiful, magical creatures. joining me now from senegal's abby -- , assistant professor of conservation. thank you so much for being here abby. again, i just wanna say that there is no recording or evidence that the woman was killed because she was harassing the elephant. talk to me about the impact that poachers are having an elephant populations in india and asia and how this could potentially be prompting aggressive behavior from elephants towards humans. >> thank you tiffany for having me. [inaudible] a lot of work focuses in africa,

but that somehow related between africa and india. everything that i will say in africa can also be applicable in india. if i may, before i even answer the questions around poaching in the aggressiveness of the elephant, i just want to get to that question a little bit, but it's important to push back on some of the misconceptions around wildlife poaching, especially in africa. the vast majority of africans were arrested or killed over accusations of portions -- poaching, or any of the things that we've come to love, but the vast majority of these are traditional hunters who are arrested. -- to answer your questions, are elephants getting more aggressive because of poaching? yes they are.

but poaching is by far not the main reason or not the only reason that elephants are getting more aggressive. it's also because they are confined into smaller spaces. having to share more space with humans. they are major drivers of changes that are transforming a lot of their natural habitats into agricultural production, especially in africa. it is pushing them closer and closer into human territories and vice versa. humans are increasingly pushed into dangerous wildlife territories. >> it's interesting, you pointed this out, i saw your tweet, based on this one's location, she was likely out of an indigenous group in india where they faced poverty and displacement. it is pushed him closer natural life habitats, which is what you are talking about. it is this combination of

things. if you talk about climate change and how that impacts people, how that's impacting animals and our interaction with them, i am just in interested and curious, elephants are so beautiful, beautiful animals, they have memories, it's so awful to see them hurt. what exactly -- they are being killed for their tusk made of ivory. when exactly is that being used for, where is that traded and what is the economic demand for this kind of ivory. maybe that is how we stop this kind of thing to not by-products with ivory intent. i don't know the solution, your thoughts. >> absolutely. this goes back to the question around poaching. the ivory trade is definitely an issue. it is a big issue. i don't to miss report here because there is still a lot of reports that are unfolding. a lot of it is in asia, there's also a big market in the u.s.

actually. even though we often report in asia, but the u.s. is also a big market for ivory trading. in order, you talked about how can we save these elephants that we have all come to love. i think that oftentimes the voices that are missing in these conversations are the indigenous people. the vocal communities that are coexisting with wildlife. these are people who have spent millenniums protecting the wildlife. today, they are the same ones who are being pushed off of those lands because of conservation policies and agricultural production as well, which a lot of times is multinational corporations. they are buying huge tracks of land or agricultural production, pushing indigenous people off

of their land, and pushing wildlife off of their land. . we can talk about it, but we also have to talk about indigenous people. the women in india, that was a perfect example of people who were on the brunt of protecting wildlife, but in their voices are never heard within these larger conversations. >> i appreciate you for bringing that up we, should center those voices in this conversation. thank you abby for clearing out these beautiful creatures and what is impacting them. i will say, i laughed at some of the memes as well, but when i saw your tweet, i saw that this is not, funny this is a sad thing that is happening to these beautiful animals, and also the indigenous. coming up tomorrow, on the sunday show, a new discovery in 1985 case of murdered black teen emma till. and arrest warrant was from 1955 for the woman who is at the center of the case.

charles -- is filling in for

all right, thank everybody at home watching the cross connection. i will be back next saturday at 10 am eastern. but stay tuned, because the amazing alex witt has the latest. hey there alex. >> hey there you. you have a wonderful, for them that you back next saturday. gives us something to look

forward to, have a good one. boyfriend be. save >> thank you. a good one. boyfriend be save a very good vigilante, from msnbc world headquarters, here. new york welcome everyone to our sweat reports. we begin with new fallout and legal whiplash. the battle over abortion rights. because, over 90 texas appearing court reversed a lower court order that allowed abortion through six weeks to continue, ordering the states century-old abortion ban to be enforced immediately in civil court. now, it comes as president biden hosted a virtual roundtable yesterday with several governors to talk about protecting abortion rights. those leaders urging the president to deploy federal resources. >> mister, president we would ask that you consider your ability to use federal facilities. what am i talking about? veterans hospitals, military bases, and other places where the federal government controls the jurisdiction, and some of the states that are hostile to women's rights.

>> we are going to have