tv Sophie Co RT June 27, 2014 2:29pm-3:01pm EDT
war and you are going to escape odd foot where would you go into the heart of the aggressors imperialists know you go in the direct opposite direction interestingly enough in both this conflict and the two thousand and eight war in georgia the overwhelming majority of refugees flee towards russia excluding some sort of bizarre stockholm syndrome it seems that for people in break we republics in ukraine and georgia russia is a safe haven they often say that people vote with their feet and in the case of the most recent wars in european history it is clear whose feet are voting for whom and no mainstream media talking points can deny that but that's just my opinion.
whole region i guess today's husain haqqani former pakistani ambassador to the u.s. i will try to figure out what's going on in pakistan now. with the region stream is mine terrorism pakistan is taking action against the taliban holed up in its territory the government is abandoning its talks policy choosing to strike militants with force can is over turn the tide of told in violence and is it ever possible to make peace with terrorists. former ambassador of pakistan to the united states international relations professor at boston university who signed hakani welcome it's great to have you with us today so i'm just going to start from the current events there are stretched to the pakistani government from hardline extremists but also from what i understand of the military takeover is an army coup likely. i'm not sure whether the army would like to take over or directly destroy
mendus influence and i think it would like to continue to erode that influence unfortunately what that does is it better allies this decision making the civilians cannot make decisions because the army is constant be looking over their shoulder and the army doesn't really control everything because after all it has to contend with the civilians so it better lies a decision making it's not a good situation to be in but that's the situation we find the army not liking the civilians the civilians not liking the army and yet and i mean to call or not necessarily imminent there is not a factor they anti-government cleric attack here will country lead a mass revolt last year and is now promising to leave their revolution now and european and backed by your real force or is it just being delusional well i think he has he has basically a few thousand supporters even the last time when he came to islam by the two of the few thousand supporters the question is why is he doing it he has lived abroad for quite a few years why does he feel confident enough to bring his supporters into the
streets jalen the quality of the government a lot of people suspect some followed you must remember that in pakistan's history street demonstrations have sometimes been used by the into so this is intelligence as a means of trying to exert influence on the civilian government and sometimes even to depose it is something like that happening we don't have evidence but we certainly have a lot of suspicion but why do you think that the current parliamentary government is in a session weak position how did it come to this it's besieged from all sides extremists the military now the qadri threat why. well first of all the best way to run bucks on under a civilian government is by building relationships across the board no civilian political party has sufficient strength to run the country on its own even if it wins an absolute mandate like prime minister nawaz sharif's did the muslim league does not have support beyond one job baucus is
a country of several regions it needs a little bit more of consensus building that's one of the problems the other problem of course is the civil military do i'd the civilians have to be made it dept attending the civilian military issues the third is the idiot logical divide box son is it illogically still do very polarized between those who want to be some form of an islamic state everybody has their own version of islamic state but they want to islam is it and those who say bach son needs to be a pragmatic functional state and then above all that is the whole box dannii do logical d.n.e. off on gently wanting either. better to do with india or competition with india which makes it very difficult to invest in things like health care and education and run a functional economy when the civilian government makes decisions about the economy sometimes a military thinks those decisions are motivated by corruption not pragmatism courts
interfere the institutions have not yet all worked out in a manner in which full democracy can move forward let's talk about taliban for instance i mean for many taliban represents extreme extreme islam and prime minister now i shereef was in strong favor of engaging taliban militants in peace talks what do you make of that whitey thing is that. well first of all you must understand that promise an ally sharif in one thousand nine hundred eight said that he actually admired the taliban because of their commitment to islam this brings us to the problem that i have been writing about and speaking about opening up this one is no need to revisit the very fundamental idea of pakistan as an islam extolled because if it's going to be an islamic state people in jackets and die are not going to be able to define islam that islam is going to be defined by the mullahs and everyone will love and offer a different explanation and different vision of what an islamic state is going to look like and that is the real reason why buxton is in such
a mess now the taliban represent the most extreme form and that i live on that have been used by the pakistani state for influence in afghanistan in the past and the taliban who are now coming back and hunting and fighting the pakistani state inside pakistan there needs to be much greater clarity about pakistan's future direction prime minister nawaz sharif talked he could talk to the taliban who are fighting in pakistan and persuade them to accept some kind of a compromise not realizing that you become taliban because you are uncompromising your belief system is so hardline that you do not like people who do not do exactly what to tell them to be so these are not people who are amenable to reason now as fighters fighting them is concerned fighting them would require in national consensus or some kind of national support if the pakistani public opinion remains divided between those who think well the taliban article is good muslims and those
who think the taliban are just being misled by some foreign forces to attack pakistan then in that environment how is it supposed to decide in the battlefield which taliban should he shoot we should negotiate with one of that and the region next question actually because if the government does pinning its hopes on. peace treaty with the taliban isn't launching a military offensive a strange step in that direction absolutely look it reflects confusion it reflects into a logical confusion the really do logical confusion is out of the taleban just some people who are angry with the state or angry with america in afghanistan or are there people who have a vision that means taking pakistan and everywhere else everywhere where there are muslims into the eighth century all evidence points to the fact that these people who want to drag our society into the age century they don't want the young girls
to go to school they don't want to have religious pluralism they want to kill anybody who does not conform to islam as this seat of the slum they don't consider as muslims they don't consider me but release as muslims they don't consider comedies as muslims they don't want christians they don't want to undo it they want beautification of the society this lot of people like. these people are not people of the twenty first century so how does the twenty first century negotiate with the it century what can be the compromise look so the negotiation always means finding middle ground so for example you want hundred i'm willing to give twenty we can settle on fifty but here these are people who believe that either everything that they think god has ordered them to impose has to be imposed or that is nothing as such people will never be amenable to negotiation we're talking about twenty first century fighting the eighth century i mean we see that even nato as late as
armament is unable to defeat the taliban so for example this latest anti taliban north waziristan offensive is one amongst many previous ones that has also proved to child or is this one any different. the big difference is that the eighth century uses twenty first century means of destruction to impose its entry ideas so my point is that you cannot have a negotiation between the ideas now as flight as the military tech destruct and certain the taliban have advantages of terrain they have advantages of surprise and they have the advantage of confusion within society look in russia when for example the extremists have ever attacked. in any city a terrorist attack the whole nation has been united in thinking these are terrorists we need to fight them and so your military intelligence service all kinds of law enforcement people are all on one page in pakistan we have
deliberately created confusion over the last six or seven years we have always said no no no people who operate in the name of islam are good people even when they're slaughtering people like goats so what we have is it confused state apparatus and a confused man even if he has twenty first century need to weapons cannot really prove what you need is latapy what are we trying to do we trying to build in modern pakistan which allows people to practice islam reach and got to just people to remain moderate but which is not going to be bound by any political vision of an islam extent we are not doing that and in that the taliban have an advantage messenger of whole sheriff out there where going to take a short break right now not when we'll come back we'll continue talking to pakistan's former ambassador to the united states who signed hakani about washington's and manned warfare in pakistan and also the threats posed by islamabad
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now we're back with his sign hockey. i'm a former ambassador of pakistan to the united states now international relations professor and just trying to be more about the taliban pakistan is special forces and the military helped create the taliban hoping to wield influence in the region through them so why is islam but so involved with the taliban now has it been worth it what do you think. i think that the pakistani military does realize that the taliban have become a problem for pakistan but it is just too late the taliban have sunk deep roots in pakistan and now it's very difficult to beat the enemy. when it was previously your friend and your creation now washington's drone program has been active in pakistan for years now targeting taliban mainly but also causing civilian casualties and that's been kind of
a problem but is that now becoming less of an issue for the pakistani government what do you think i think that the current government has been able to work out some kind of an arrangement with the americans where by most of the drive drone strikes are now taking place only with some kind of core donation between pakistan and the united states so we don't hear too much about them in the drone strikes were not quite denoted box done used to leak the information to the media we have not seen those leaks and therefore we are seeing less of a reaction as well and groups like imran khan spark a stunt that he can solve which were running the campaign against the drones have shifted their emphasis to other issues but what do you think of the whole thing just like in general the bigger picture the u.s. drones attacking extremists in pakistan is it a good thing for you very frankly the drones were used primarily because pakistan was not to launching a ground offensive and there was nor do we know about allies in those people you know the american attitude was we have
a list of people who need to be federalized who need to be taken out so that they are not a trip internationally they don't attack americans abroad they don't attack americans in america that was a strategy it was not only for baucus down of ghana fund it was also for young men everywhere when there was no ground get ability or if capability in the region to fight the terrorists i think that if the box on the military manifests its interest in fighting the terrorists inside pakistani territory then there will be less drone strikes. there are other issues relating to drones which i think i'd even bigger then drawn to off if be deemed regular warfare because it's basically a war by assassination you're just assassinating people in a regular war a soldier can point a gun at another soldier and sister and then the man can set into there's no option of that in this particular office so those are moral issues that tickle issues that the international community needs to sort out but i think in case of the pakistani
northern territory and not to estimate is primarily it was the lack of action on the ground that made the americans use drones but let me ask you this putting the moral factor aside can taliban be defeated it without the drone offensives what do you think i think that drones were only a way of eliminating lead is but the taliban have shortened remarkable capability of recruiting new members and i think basically the idea of talibanization needs to be confronted somebody needs to stand up and box on and say this we forward is not of a forward these people represent ideas that are not acceptable to pakistani society and these people are not pakistan spock knows for regional influence unless that happens that the taliban will continue to recruit all the way from karachi to not too distant look the not to this done operation will result in a lot of internally displaced persons these people will include the future taliban
as long as the idiology of the taliban is alive they will continue to recruit all over this on an investor you know i've spoken to many pakistanis who are actually surprised when people are interested in their internal politics are like you know it's not a lot and i'm here business but i'm thinking obviously the internal politics of pakistan are a concern for the rest of the world where the very least because of its nuclear country its nuclear program can of pakistan ensure the safety of its nuclear arsenal against any threat. i think that box size nuclear arsenal has the same kind of safety arrangements that most countries do the real problem is spock is on a secure nation it's a different question that i demand of my internal problem and what is there's always such turmoil around who is without harming the country you know what happens when extremists take over the country for example and that is something pakistanis should be open to talk about i mean unfortunately pakistanis have become very wary
defensive in their argument to the rest of the world look. like it's funny he's going to travel to fewer countries without a visa than even north koreans baka son has become the country that is being held responsible for the revival of value in the wood these are things that pakistanis should be a bit of a cunt turn around and say out internal problems are not the problem of the rest of the world no they are because our internal problems are causing problems for the rest of the world also told you is a global problem there isn't is a global problem extremism is a global problem and either to be controlled it or the would really have to come up with ideas to control it and nuclear weapons proliferation is one of them as long as we can assure the wood that the nuclear weapons in the control of an authority the act itself is responsible and we have not done that in the past if you remember our nuclear designs ended up in korea north korea and libya and iran we believed
one man doc b.q. khan but we must come forward and hold all those who did it accountable either we are to sponsible a nation or the rest of the world will continue to wonder about us and not ability to be a responsible nation was actually that no one from the international community has the right to you know coming check up on your nuclear arsenal that's also a problem but that there's another thing seeing how the taliban threat is getting stronger and relations with india are actually getting smoother and i mean originally. a nuclear bomb in pakistan was created because india since to be this threat what does pakistan need the bomb for now well i mean i won't get into what box on these the bomb for or not because i have my own views on unbox son's nuclear deterrent i personally am one of those who feels that box on should be part of some international nuclear industry but i'm in a very small minority in part because. the problem even on the situation in
relation to india is that relations may be small that on the surface but deep down they are not every box funny child is still taught in schools that india is box on the end of the enemy i am one of those who advocates is reorientation of box done completely but sunny's to think of it says as a trading nation not as a warrior nation we need to trade with india we need to trade with the gun is that we need to deemphasize this whole islamic identity that has made us into jihad these rather than productive people. who engage with the rest of the world in a more reasonable way and i think and liz that is done the nuclear issue will only be one of the bigger problem the bigger problem is what is the purpose of box fun in the woods is always going to be a warrior nation that wants to be india's equal without having the economic the sources or the size. of the size of geography and population or its box on
villein to be a nation that begs attention to its hundred eighteen million people. yeah i while ago there were reports that the u.s. special forces were getting ready to move into pakistan and seized a nuclear arsenal in case pro taliban elements came or come to power now do you think that's a realistic plan and do you think washing took still has that plan in mind look americans make all kinds of plans i don't know if you know that the americans even have a plan to deal with some kind of zombie takeover of the looted so they do these exercises but i don't think it's practicable for american special operate. forces to arrive in bug fun without some kind of a support base inside buckets on and you must remember eighty two percent of pakistanis have a negative view of the united states so if american troops ever come to pakistan it's a result in a kind of chaos and war like situation which i don't think the americans want i think the americans would like to have a government in box that dick's responsibility for pakistan's nuclear program and i
think it doesn't buck son's interest to make itself part of the global community with the distro rather than an under strange country that does not allow international observers into box and even for normal check ups on its nuclear. facilities this kind of isolation is not good for baucus than it makes box on more like north korea rather than like south korea which is an economically prosperous and open society talking about north korea you know that u.s. intelligence spends just as much time spying on pakistan as it does on north korea and al qaeda why does it feel the need to spy on its ally but i think that the pakistani u.s. alliance is essentially now just a charade i mean everybody knows that baucus on strategic god's goodness is very different from america's strategic calculus i've written a whole book called magnificent delusions in which i say that the box funny delusion is that it can maintain its strategic calculus with american assistance
and support that as the american delusion is that it can change but this one strategic goal is by giving get aid in arms these two countries need to review their relationship in a way to significant way and we must come to terms of the fact that there are people in pakistan who have ideas about how they would fight america and there are americans who would think that baka son needs to be brought under restraint much more than this say publicly so i don't think that the alliance is really an alliance anymore and i agree that the americans are conducting the kind of surveillance and box that they use. for countries that this deem as hostile and that is not good by the way it's not good either for the u.s. well for pakistan just a little bit more about the nuclear program i mean the i asked either pakistan's intelligence service is responsible for safeguarding the nuclear arsenal but is it really as untrustworthy as the us thinks it is no i don't think look i think sometimes that these questions are framed wrongly i mean who is that untrustworthy
full look no box funny would want to pakistan's nuclear arsenal to fall into the hands of either the americans or the indians or anybody else people like me what are you about what happens when people with jihad these sympathies vehicle will pakistan's nuclear arsenal. nuclear weapons were designed primarily as to tighten we already have that deterrent capability. why do we need to expand on our nuclear weapons program and forty two percent of our school going children do not go to school. we need to think about the bigger picture and the bigger picture is that it's not just the americans sophie many other countries also are getting concerned about baucus as a. as a petri dish for global terrorism most of the people arrested in europe have had some kind of relationship either they went to pakistan or what inbox than when they
became radicalized and built up things we need to address for ourselves so out of radical pakistan which is also nuclear it is definitely a problem but a nuclear box on that is responsible and takes responsible for its nukes i don't think that that needs to be confronted the same be the master had kind of thank you very much for this insight about pakistan's internal and foreign policy as we're talking to her and the hussain haqqani former pakistani ambassador to the u.s. international relations professor at boston university we're talking about the threat of taliban and pakistan's nuclear program that's it for this edition of said think i will see you next time.
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