tv Cross Talk RT July 9, 2014 7:29am-8:01am EDT
ministration into a mishmash of ideas about expanding american idealistic intentions and expanding nato right up to russia's borders. we speak your language. news programs and documentaries in spanish what matters to you breaking news a little turn to angles the stories. you hear. the spanish find out more visit. the interview. still.
below and welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter all of it's not the beginning of the end but rather the end of the beginning as ukraine's civil war deepens so does the divide to end this invented crisis the europeans and watch and seek a diplomatic. resolution what washington calls for more violence. to
cross out the crisis in ukraine i'm joined by my guest marita chef ski in london she is a columnist for the independent and the guardian in washington we have ray mcgovern he is a former cia analyst and here in moscow we cross to marc sloboda he's an international affairs and security analyst crosstalk rules in fact that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it ray if i can go to you first here it looks like the president of ukraine. put a shank oh is he going to dispense with diplomacy after the flurry of the of last week with a variety of capitals including moscow he looks like he's got the green light from the state department to go all the way through and to really use heavy force against the east in ukraine. you're quite right peter it looks like he wants to sort of ethnically cleanse the net skin and other key population centers in the
ukraine before he will rejoin the ceasefire talks i've never quite seen it quite this bad actually least since right before the invasion of iraq when the leaders of france and leaders of germany stood up to george bush and dick cheney and said no we're not in on this we don't want to start a war of aggression now we have the leaders of france and germany and russia joining together talking for two hours on sunday night we could go two hours with pushing trying to persuade him to have renewed the ceasefire he kind of thumbed his nose at that and the german foreign minister immediately called a meeting in berlin of the french foreign minister and the russian foreign minister and and the ukrainian foreign minister now who was not invited and john kerry
who is not involve the telephone calls with the over that we can barack obama you would think that barack obama would say hey john why it why am i not invited anymore to these things or kerry would say hey that's not that's rude not to include me well they're they're deliberately excluding the united states and they're calling for an immediate unconditional cease fire now now the the irony here is not really irony it's sort of the double dealing is that the ukrainian foreign minister was there clean keen he agreed to all this here let's call it what it what happens put a shank go so he will do it but we'll have to do it in kiev and that way there excluding the people in the new skin elsewhere who are trying to guard themselves against the invasion so push and go watch as the offensive in the eastern ukraine making a pot. civil for them to take part in peace ceasefire talks i think couldn't be more cynical couldn't be more distasteful couldn't be more injury or injurious to
the people out that way mary mary this it looks more and more like this is being driven by washington because put a chunk of feel safe that is protectors and backers in washington have given him the green light to to push this through and in this is the violence is intensifying and in the in the reaction on the ground in hope here comes an army out to you have to expect people to defend themselves. i think that things maybe are not quite so much getting worse in the east of ukraine now that poroshenko and the forces from kiev has it appears recaptured slovyansk because that was the military center for what to described i think actually wrongly as the pro russian separatists in the east so that i think once slavyansk was vacated by the by these forces that that really spelt the beginning of the end
and that and the thing that comes next. fingers crossed and you know obviously we don't know what's going to come next actually may be less and less vicious than we're looking at but i do think there's been an acceptance not just in washington but probably in the european union as well that ukraine has to remain a unitary state that there is not going to be any question of a breakaway eastern ukraine either as a separate state or as moving towards russia and it seems to me that russia has accepted that too yes i agree market i agree completely with mary russia wants to have the state remain together however you have a government in care that is killing its own people it would seem with impunity now . well first of all i would like to say that i can't agree with mr mcgovern at all i don't see the light of day in real practical terms between the united states and
the e.u. i think russia is being played as it has so many times before by a placid classic good cop bad cop routine the e.u. has been driving this conflict from the very beginning by trying to make the ukraine make what they termed a civilizational choice they have been fully complicit in what's going on their most recent announcement that they would announce another round of sanctions against russia for doing nothing it seems doing too much of doing nothing i guess. only confirms that they have no real problems with the mass terror and repression campaign that the korean regime is conducting against its own people i don't know what where mary does jet skis getting her facts from but hours after this all the dark ruler of the regime poor shango said that there would be no bombing or
airstrikes against donetsk and lugansk we have seen now airstrikes and bombings against both lugansk and dani and so this is certainly going to get worse we're going to see a mass crisis of refugees we're going to see some true scale urban conflict and it is true that. the aspirations and the interests of the it appears as much that the russian. administration and the people of nova receive the eastern ukraine differ wildly at this point russia would like to see a federated ukraine with an eastern ukraine that it can retain some independence over particularly economically speaking for the people of eastern ukraine to ask them to live in within. the same state with a government that has called them subhumans and asked for them to be cleansed from
the country that has been massacring them with heavy artillery and air strikes for the past three months this is simply absurd and extremely cynical it would be akin to asking the kosovar albanians in serbia to go back to living with the serbians again we're looking at certainly ethnic cleansing at x. the border and genocide and to ask the ukrainian and eastern ukrainian people to go back to living under the rule of this regime is simply insane you know right one of the interesting things if they did this may all may happen but western media won't report on it if the reporting on ukraine is abysmal in western media. i'm sure viewers watching this program are unaware of many facts that have even been mentioned. yeah i was going to say that it's highly ironic for me i used to be a soviet specialist i used to read the v.c. every day to find out what the propaganda was now i have to read the foreign
ministry statements out of moscow in russian to find out what's going on in the world for example here's his lover off earlier this week he's at a press conference in bulgaria and he spells out exactly what has happened that the leaders of those four leaders i mentioned before french russian ukrainian and german had come to this agreement that there should be a ceasefire partition go said no then they can convene the foreign ministers on the second the july they've appealed for it again part of franco sent his army into the east this is how. finishes off he said there's a last thing i want to say here it's very important that the europeans realize what's going to happen here and that they take responsibility for the results of this he finishes up by saying. we we very much want.
to that the the people the people and the government the united states join in this realization that they bear together with the europeans a heavy responsibility for this now everyone's entitled to their own opinion marc is entitled to his pricey lots of daylight now now that the west europeans are realizing that this thing is led by fascist spy neo nazis and they have some experience in that regard mary but you don't hear that in them in the mainstream i mean i've lived in this part of the world tour most of my life and i know the history of ukraine pretty well and i know about these fringe groups in extremist groups and there it's as plain as day who they are but you can't get that from the new york times. well i think you can't get very much from the western media about ukraine at the moment top. initially the crisis and the civil war in syria gave way to ukraine when the crisis was what appeared to be at its height when people were being killed in kiev. and there was an apparent threat of
a russian invasion from the east then ukraine was topping all the news bulletins right across europe and in britain and in america since then what's happened is that because it appears to us that you the situation in ukraine at least in the center of ukraine and in kiev has come down then it's given way to another war so the war that is now in front and center in western reporting is the war in iraq and the advance of what we call the isis forces in iraq consolidating the areas of iraq that it's as though western media can only cope with one military crisis at a time and the caravan as it were has moved on from ukraine yes syria you know but marrying out of mary don't you think that kids really need to you don't you think
it's convenient it's a very convenient because you know because of the propaganda against russia you know it's russians dying there who cares i'm sorry but it gets about point well my view is that i think that western media can generally only cope with one military conflict at a time and the attention to the journalists and the focus is now on iraq now i think that is totally wrong i think that western media should pick people to cope with more than one military crisis at a time or i mean i did surely have to jump in here because i keep we'll keep covering ukraine here on crossfire after a short break we'll continue our discussion on ukraine stay. those are. plenty.
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choose your language. choose the kids the consensus can. choose to give kenyans the invigorating to. choose the stories that impact your life choose the access to your office. welcome back to cross talk we're all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the end of the beginning in ukraine.
ok mark i go back to you if you mention the topic of victoria nuland it seems to me that she really gets everything she wants because even failure is a success you know you go into ukraine you have this forest change sours relations with the west very badly everyone blames russia for one reason or another because they always do so it must be true and then ukraine goes into chaos russia has to pay for it all and by the way putin's under pressure at home because a lot of people here in russia are very frustrated with russia's position it's going to mark about what she's done. the u.s. has played it sandy extremely skillfully here they orchestrated financed backed this regime change using there by now quite. classic but continually updated tactics of unconventional warfare used to exploit the ethnic religious and political tensions in
a country and then direct is its people against its own government as a weapon of u.s. foreign policy this is exactly what's happened in kiev and with this regime that has come to power in the ukraine and the u.s. really wins either way they're all timid goal is to prevent the formation of a new center of power in eurasia around the eurasian union and they. have always magine that by splitting the ukraine from russia permanently they could do this now if the ukraine if russia accepts this. regime change except this violation of international law right on their borders for the sake of business as usual and the murder of hundreds if not thousands of people in the eastern ukraine then the us wins because that goal is accomplished if russia is finally
forced to the point where they feel they have to intervene out of humanitarian concern for their blood kin they are being murdered on the other side of an artificial historical twenty year old border but then the us wins again because they will use that as a rallying cry to you continue to push the e.u. and its relations against russia and the ukraine will be torn apart by even civil war to an even greater degree than it already is so proconsul nuland has really played her hand quite skillfully but this is the european continent we're talking about we're not talking about air conditioned offices in washington d.c. we face the prospect of a failed state and ethnic cleansing in europe and europe is doing virtually nothing . well i would take issue with that peter i am not
pollyanna by any measure but i think what the russians are are depending on is driving a wedge between france germany and themselves on the one hand and the us and put it on the other and i think that explains in large measure or has been so reserved has been so circumspect and so intelligent seems to me in avoiding being trapped into an endless war by sending tanks into eastern ukraine i see this union unraveling i see the same thing happening as happened before you rock when the french and the germans would participate in blood letting in iraq and so i think putin is holding his powder dry is saying let's see if we can pry the europeans into realizing what's really going on in ukraine and put a schenkel was only one ally however powerful will have to come to his senses mary
no matter what happens the people who live in the east of ukraine will not see the government in kiev is legitimate i mean they're killing their own people here you know one of the things that people have said you know russia would risk being called an occupier if it done does anything militarily in their country and it could be described as that but the kiev government now will be perceived as an occupier as things go along. well yes i mean i'm not completely as convinced as you are maybe that this is quite as black and white as it's being shown because when there were the presidential elections there were a reasonable number of people who not only want to go and vote in the presidential election in eastern ukraine but did go out and vote some people weren't able to some people actually boycotted the elections but there was a turnout in the east which made the election of partition more legitimate than it might otherwise have been if that be no turnout if that the no votes for part of
the east then yes we might have been looking at a complete division of the country i'm not convinced that that is actually the only solution now. i think that poroshenko is obviously using some very unsavory means to keep the country together but he's doing this with i think the tacit approval of washington with the passive approval of the europeans and with also with what appears to be the exception of moscow now until and unless putin and russia does something other than sit on the sidelines here i think we're looking at ukraine which is designed to stay together with a looser federal structure for the east and that is what will eventually be negotiated well this is what russia has been pushing here mark my favorite question when it comes to russia putin in ukraine some people say he's doing too much and some
people say he's doing too little well first of all i have to say that i agree with mr mcgovern that the bush administration's hope that they continue to play is that they can draw a divide between the u.s. and the e.u. who may continue to try to appeal to as their more reasonable partners i think this is a tragic mistake i think. every day they follow along this false hope that they've been stronger gone for months with repeated agreements and documents that the e.u. was a party to that they have walked away from without even the slightest acknowledgement of that while this regime continues on its rampages. so i think that. russia is getting played putin is getting played and i think that there is a great deal of resentment now within eastern ukraine against the russian government because of this i mean these are people that are dying by the scores
every day with prayers to russia to save them on their lips and russian people really expected that maybe not through a direct military intervention but at the very least that the russian admin and government should give the people of eastern ukraine the financial military and other support it needs to defend itself on equal terms and it's really a marriage of the key to describe the election quote unquote of poor showing no as legitimate is really in my opinion an obscene carrying sure of democratic process we had a literal pogrom going on in this country where opposition party members were beat repeatedly with an insecure their lives there was assassination attempts on them their offices and houses were burned to the ground we have video seeing opposition party members literally tortured on the my done square by mobs. and just two weeks before the election when there was massive turnout in a referendum
a self organized people's referendum to distance themselves from this regime in kiev. on that day the regime was shelling and killing the people in the attempt to vote against it so i think it's really quite cynical and hypocrite. anyone from someone who considers themself a democratic country to describe the regime of this oligarchy poor shango is legitimate anyway ray as poroshenko tries to keep the country together it seems to me by the use of force and some of these are right wing extremist neo nazi militias let's not forget that that's not the ukrainian army as western media likes to describe them these people go on a rampage and seem to enjoy it here but the more depends on people like this it seems to me he divides the country permanently. well he does and if he sends the ukrainian army led by the right sector and svoboda and other right wing fascist
type groups into it and yet sco city of over a million people that's going to be really a bloodbath and that's going to call in. stronger attempts by europe to stop it. i like take a step back and remember that eduard shevardnadze died this week and who is he will he was the one with got a bit chuff who initiated the policies that resulted in the dissolution of the warsaw pact and should have been the dissolution of nato nato promise not to move one inch farther to the east look what's happened this is at the core of all this and put chain holds the high cards here he has already taken over crimea and as hellmuth schmidt the statesman from germany said that was still house fish that he thought really understandable and nato is not going to be able to take over to
assume that assume ukraine into its membership any any further than it was able to do with georgia and the ukrainians really should remember what happened in two thousand and eight because the way partition is acting now is the way saakashvili in georgia acted then and he's going to not get the kind of help he needs in the end from the united states mary when we reflect upon that because you know it's not quite freely was always seen as a say or good for the americans for nato expansion and look what happened to him and he's disgraced more or less than he needs has and. still like him i like that analogy because i i still see what a shank always a transit transitional figure. i think you may be right about persian copying a transitional figure. but i think that the way that poroshenko is being presented as simply as a stooge of the west i'm not sure that that is the correct reading even for
a transitional figure because persian co has he's talked to putin his officials have been talking to russian officials this is not a situation as it was with saakashvili where there was extreme hostility and even person degree of personal and maty between putin and saakashvili that complicated relations you don't get that impression with putin on policy and quote you get the impression that here are two people who are actually looking for a solution which is going to leave ukraine as a unitary state and in one respect i don't understand my fellow panelists because they seem to be kucing putin of as it were not invading ukraine not coming to the aid of the east ukrainians absent thinking that this is an extremely bad i really urge we had more time we've run out of time larry we have brought a very good paradoxical point many thanks to my guests and why did washington and here in moscow and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next
time and remember crosstalk. we never saw that coming. we had no idea our children were gay. i would actually just at night pray to god you know me normal. they said you're a homo you're a homo and from that day in first grade i swear my life changed forever i became like to read it cool to get stopped still to this day. well alabama and texas
instructs school teachers to tell pupils young people that homosexuality is not an acceptable lifestyle and also instructs them to say that homosexual sex in private is a crime in those states if the church was going to fire me that's what they had to do but i was going to do this way to. put it in your cultural moment in washington d.c. college face i think sometimes people. it was. a pleasure to have you with us here on t.v. today i'm sure.
for bailing the whole world. seems so if panic in gaza is young children and women are among thirty five killed in his role as offensive against the palestinian territories. germany arrests of the french ministry worker accused of spying for the u.s. just days after another alleged double agent working for its suppose that our life was on earth and burned and. civilians seek safety in eastern ukraine as government forces lay siege to the region's biggest cities using the blockade that they shiling.