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tv   World Apart With Oxana Boyko  RT  July 6, 2017 4:29am-5:01am EDT

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for me i'm going to end up taking a more conventional position on these issues which is where he is right now. it's interesting you say that because i think what you just said is the basis for an argument you continue sabotaging trumps governance so that he doesn't all collude with the russian war but as a russian i think i see that in a totally different lie because it seems to me that the kremlin is benefiting much more from trump and the united states being sabotaged because in a way takes the united states all of the political scene as a serious player what do you think russia is more interested at this point of time the american corporation or the continuing american absence from the scene well i think i wouldn't call it sabotage trump trump is sabotaging himself well it really is both perhaps i do think so i mean he comes out with tweets every day most recently against journalists on m.s.n. b.c. i know. he's in the hole and he keeps digging and so he is not being
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vilified by the united states or by the democrats he's behaving in such a way this and bring it upon himself with mr cheney or yourself noted that there is such a climate in the united states that makes any kind of not just referential but any kind of french gesture to russia exceedingly difficult political to move this why is that happening that is happening because russia hacked into u.s. e-mail accounts and intervened in our democratic that's why that is why the political environment now is poisonous when it comes to russia i think from the russian perspective no it's not full stop from the russian perspective it's totally different from the russian perspective fits the united states having a meltdown psychological meltdown because their world that it once knew is slipping away and that you're actually i have a question on that topic because you yourself have written a number of books on the changing world order that sooner or later at. the united
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states will cease to be the sort of centralized command and control center around the world i know that i assume with. your fool you emotionally if they see a fool with the help of ministration or would they have ministration but don't you think that your thesis is more in line with the so-called putin's doctrine. well just quickly to come back yes the us is going through a tough time politically and that's largely because of the deep polarization in american society and the degree to which a significant segment of the american electorate feels like it has not been the beneficiary of globalization and russia has not nothing to do with that nothing to do with it whatsoever russia has taken advantage of this by intervening trying to foster differences of opinion and polarization in the west and that's that's a separate issue so both both things are happening to your broader question i mean i'm someone who believes that the world is inevitably going to ward poly centrism
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i don't think it's a good thing from the perspective of stability it may be a good thing from the perspective of and a gallop tarion international order where different countries have their own say but managing a world where there are multiple centers of power is going to be much tougher than managing one where there's one center of power and that's why this moment is so key that's why the russians the americans the europeans the chinese and stead of going after each other need to come together and figure out what the rules of the road are going to perhaps a look at i think mr putin and where they agree with you one hundred percent do you think that kind of argument could be just as well received in washington why is mr putin trying to be a rules buster rather than a rules maker that's what i don't get why is he violating the norm of sovereignty by going into ukraine why is he hacking in to other people's e-mail servers why is he getting doesn't even own the phone that the i'm not sure he's capable of hacking
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when he's clearly been blasting it why is he supporting a regime that carries out chemical weapons attacks this is not a country that is upholding an international order to one of the tearing down i'm sure you know of him is you know one hundred percent that russia does not accept any of that fact if. active-x. the problem you know the problem with rush over the united now you guys need to come out of your alternative reality and understand that there are things happening out there in the world that most of the rest of the world accept but you don't accept it because there has been a narrative generated here that isn't based on fact well that's very dangerous i've been doing this interview of program for number of years and i have world leader after leader coming to this capital and being able to talk and willing being willing to talk to the kremlin i don't see the outline for hope leaders in front of the white house to be honest with you maybe it's the united states that needs to
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come out of the universe of constructive for itself and have a fresh perspective of what is happening around the world because at the end of the day you're absolutely right both when the events in ukraine happened both putin and obama said that it was about the world order and who gets to decide what's orderly and what's not and do you think russia at this point of time is going to yield this initiative to the united states after everything that happened in this. well number one countries are beating a path still to washington not to moscow despite the fact that in the united states we have a bit of a political mess number two the united states is still a country that is generally upholding the order trying to uphold the order that emerged after after world war two and so i think it would be a kind of misrepresentation to say that everybody is coming to moscow and not to
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what i want you if you if we just take the number of visited moscow over the last let's say four months and compare it to the number of leaders will visit washington i think it's i mean those would be just pure figures but i'm absolutely sure that they are in favor of russia but it's a little let's not compare the numbers because elvis of the united states is. it is an important player it's recognized even this country and i'm sure you heard foreign minister lavrov saying that russia is counting on having some sort of pragmatic relationship with the united states. what do you think pragmatism even mean to the americans and those they made because for the russians it's a give and take they're not going to give without taking anything and it seems to me that americans as simply not willing to take to give anything to the russians at this point of time well number one it was russia that walked away from the cooperative relationship with obama obama was about as as pragmatic
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a president as you were going to find number two you know i think that there is a possibility for trump and putin when they meet in hamburg to figure out a way forward but in the end of the day if we cannot figure out common ground on ending the conflict in eastern ukraine if we cannot figure out common ground on mapping out a political vision that brings peace to syria those two issues are going to poison the relationship and so i think we ought to we all be leaning in to try to find a way forward on syria and ukraine i think that's a very valid point but if that doesn't happen if the status quo prevails don't you think that it would be favoring russia much more than it would be favoring the united states how so well the situation in syria how russia to gain a certain amount of political leverage the station in your korea is painful for all of us but i think the general opinion in moscow is that there's not much that
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russia can really contribute at this point of time with the government in ukraine also adjusting its position so if worst comes to boris and the. status quo remains don't you think that russia is disposed to continue increasing his cheerful medical cloud while the united states will continue having political battles over the president's facelift wit you know i think that you create that russian intervention in ukraine and syria are a tactical win and a strategic defeat in the case of ukraine russia. found itself isolated. russia has faced sanctions that are actually increasing not decreasing in the case of syria yes russia has increased its geo political influence in a limited way because it now has a strong ally in the assad but in the wider world when russia is backing
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a country that uses chemical weapons against its own people when russian and syrian aircraft are bombing hospitals is this a win for russia in the court of world opinion i don't think so but. i don't want to get into the issues but then i could turn the table in here and say is it a win for the united states to continue sponsor jihadi groups as it's been doing throughout the middle east and there's the matter of fact is that you cannot accuse me of making a fake news because you know that the united states in even under the obama administration was supporting groups. it doesn't feel like maybe that support was limited nonetheless that's jihadi groups are you referring to and number of them for example in syria there are a number of as a former reporter in syria i know that there have been and number of groups that either the united states or the american allies supported it again i really as i
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stated in my lead i don't want to get into this cycle of recrimination because the at least of groom and that's the last question is for washington this is pretty long do you think there is anything that can sort of kick us out of these dynamic of. blaming each other for what has happened before the record the united states was supporting in syria groups that were vetted and that were not sponsors of terrorism and so in terms of the day that child i mean. in the case of in the case of isis these are countries that the united states has been going after not worked . do i think that pierre is a way forward yes i mean i as i said i think the world would be a safer place if russia and the united states were cooperating if the e.u. and russia were cooperating but we have to number one clear the underlying brush the syria problem the ukraine problem and other issues you can't start from the top
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you have to start from the bottom and secondly quite honestly you know i think president putin has legitimated himself a sensually by running on a platform of standing up to the west of trying to undermine the west as long as that's his political brand it's going to be very cool difficult for him to build a good relationship with the west well mr kushner let me stop you for a minute now we have to take a very short break but we'll be back in just a few moments. when we see on television left wing the sick advocates left wingers out there and they're shutting down professors from speaking at colleges so the shutting down colleges. this is an example of them being or acting in an author terry terry of
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passion become a little dictator yes and this is what links to the fact that as children they were completely shielded from any of the so-called dangers of life kept in a bubble and so when they become young adults anything that disrupts that bubble a loud sound like a professor saying something that doesn't agree with them they go into shock they go into stuff like meltdown. welcome to the wonderful world of blood donation. come here every three we. to get my transfusion to be specific i receive immunoglobulin that my body gets and supporters that it cannot produce itself around the world giving blood is seen as a symbol of generosity no one does this because it helps people that's one of the side effects is that i did this surprise. put the money on
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your car radio you don't have all plasma based drugs today come from private companies and are produced from paid plans from a small company by the role of a murderer and. one of the risks of a donation. to them is prove that the frequency of pathology is much higher in paid donations. to sado if i was. over two years old he would go over the money and that's the truth and who runs the blood business . welcome back to wells apartments charles kupchak a senior fellow at the council on foreign relations mr cobb i asked him before
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about the turning point and i'm absolutely convinced that two thousand and fourteen has become a year when russia finally. broke up with the notion that it could be integrated into the west that it could be you know a country like any other country missed in europe and. many in russia see two thousand and fourteen as a year of geopolitical emancipation a while. you know was hard to reach was painful you know we are not discounting sanctions but ultimately wish cautious russia to charge its own course a course that will not have to be adversarial to the west that but that will have to be. separate from the west and i wonder how much of that do you thing was. president obama's response to the ukrainian events and how much of that was simply . a historic occurrence because again in a number of your books he did ride that sooner or later that would be happening well you know i think that narratives are malleable they are constructed by leaders
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yes in two thousand and fourteen what you might call a narrative of eurasian nationalism or autonomy emerged and it has been guiding russian foreign policy ever since that doesn't need to be the case forever it is not irreversible and i think in the end of the day russia is a european country russia's home is in the european space and that you know the bottom line is people around the world are still heading to the united states they're still rushing to europe they're banging at the doors to get in because they feel that on the perspire in the perspective of jobs universities the dynamism dynamism of society these are places where people want to live in everything right russia should take a lesson from that get away from a model that is so heavily dependent on energy start building in biology kaname get its industrial base back going the best way to do that is to deepen its ties with
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europe speaking of which i really want to ask you about the upcoming visit of trunk to. europe for the g. twenty summit that meeting between put an interim face expected there and i think what's interesting is that it's is that both france and germany at kind of angling for and mediating role between moscow and washington why would they be interested in something like that. well you know i think that the europeans have their work cut out for them and that their priority right now is figuring out how to work with donald trump because trump's first visit to europe did not go very well the needy meeting at nato and then the g. seven in sicily it led to a situation in which uncle a miracle said hey europe may have to be on its own so number one priority i think is going to be let's figure out how to work with trump the second priority will be can we improve the relationship with moscow and there i think the meeting with
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trump and putin is a very important moment i hope they're able to establish a good reporter to my knowledge this will be the first time that they've met face to face but again the personal part i think will be the easy part the tough part will be tackling the issues that you and i have been discussing that i also want to ask. europe you often comment on the european affairs and the at least a number of very serious challenges that face us at the moment the sort of transformation of its political landscape the immigration problem the bracks to challenge the structural reforms and the. immense issues and yes i think his there there is a tendency in the west of trying to pin everything negative on russia it may be a self-serving it may seem like a self-serving question but i honestly ask you don't you think that this tendency of dragging russia into everything is constraining both the analytical ability and
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the solution finding process because with all due respect you can't blame clinton for meeting a pal in the kremlin but the problem of antiestablishment this. grave there then i think the ability of any country to influence let alone orchestrate something like that was you and i were discussing a few minutes ago. most of the problems that are affecting the u.s. and western europe are bubbling up from below but on the issue of blaming russia number one russia doesn't do itself any good by giving western media and others an excuse by mucking around and by interfering in elections and number two i think russians should be careful what they wish for directions really want to see marine le pen win the french election the russians really support britain's exit from the e.u. if i were russian i would want europe to be
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a success and that's because russia has suffered a great deal historically when europe is at war with itself the best investment russia can make in its own future is to have a europe next door that is stable integrated and wealthy i think that has again the kind of statement you're with here from the kremlin and then why is the kremlin working to encourage the dissolution of the e.u. well i don't think that's happening at all and let me try and this argument that i would put in favor pen i don't want to out of the euro zone and she wanted to take french out of the e.u. which would essentially mean they're just not as judging mental and moralistic as the united states meeting with somebody doesn't not necessarily mean that you are going to endorse them first so you're saying the kremlin did not hope that. when they supported i don't think the political climate in the west is still poisonous that most doesn't have many partners to try to maintain relationships in those countries and those parties quote willing to talk to moscow russia seizes this up
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potential may be successful and maybe not but this is a normal political process those parties and not some far right parties i mean if you actually look into van the pounds ideology it's many studies suggest that it has more sort of leftist leaning their right wing wing and you know from their russian point of view russia is a leftist country i think by its own makeup that. that is a natural movement when you think when you when you talk about the campaign of influence with such certainty that presupposes that russia knows the americans the europeans so well dive it would actually know how to pull something as malicious as that you attend conferences like this all the time do you really believe that russians us so well informed about what is happening in the united states in europe really think they're ask a possible as you are. well i was i would number one to say why is it that
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russia's reputation in western europe in the united states is what it is right it's not just grew on a tree it's a response to russian aggression it's a very low numbers terry no question we have no ok because the evidence is there that russia has interfered in the election if they have it it is russia our intelligence agencies. complete confidence high confidence put out the findings that this happened in our intelligence agencies say that that didn't happen why do you think russians should take the chessman if american intelligence agencies so over there so you're telling me that you don't think that russia interfered in the u.s. elections to look another going to accept the argument from authority that's what i'm saying i think you guys are all overcome by the argument if i thought i said i we're just asking for evidence and indeed if there is because i mean the american intelligence agencies produced this report they bought our t. is being in a major source of influence and i encourage you to go and watch the interview that
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we will do with you and you will see that i'm not actually putting somebody else's no i understand i understand that i'm happy to have this conversation a very grateful for having sat through that session this morning and listened to what the narrative is here i think you guys are stuck in an alternate reality and russia today and sputnik and various n.g.o.s put out a set of facts that simply do not accord with reality and that's dangerous and that's one of the reasons that it's so difficult for russia to cooperate wife with the west is just one example of that russia violated ukraine's sovereignty and next crimea and fostered a separatist revolt in the east people are still dying on a daily basis russia is aligned with the regime in syria it's a gassing its own people well but right i mean these are these are facts that they think that the guys lying on the ground foaming at. the mouth were hollywood actors were syrians dying from a gas attack well but i know that there were lots of chemical weapons stolen from
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libya as somebody who played from there i also know that the american media have a very selective few on the web and whatever is happening and not only american media for example our arab media there they also have their points of view and i and my point is that sure russia splinters you may know of a fourth with yours but claiming that it is better based on say can use don't you think that that puts you in the category of donald trump i mean you may disagree with the russians but i bet you that you cannot give me a single international event that would be proven proven because we are talking about syria if you cannot prove what happened to syria not that it can i think that you are living in la la land. to put it politely right i mean go out and get outside of russia go talk to people around the world about what is happening in syria go talk to people around the world about what's happened in ukraine you have
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constructed an alternative reality here in russia that makes it very difficult for you to cooperate with others can i ask you one more and perhaps. the most crucial question because the popular idea that i fear political scientists discussed here in russia is that the kremlin at this point of time basically has no choice but to offer russia and new domestic program a kind of program that will ironically put russia first as opposed to you know foreign policy successes that have been sustaining put in the ratings. for the last couple of years and many attribute that. to president obama and the sanctions the fact that the sanctions have constrained the. leadership and they come to the corporate world's ability to gather additional capital to get the technologies in there why do you think that the what do you think about this idea of the a fact all present on the sanctions can be actually much more beneficial longer
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term in russia as far as democracy growing is concerned as opposed to just being you know a calculus changing mat measure when it comes to ukraine. i mean i think that the. the sanctions have mattered but they have mattered more at the margins and that the core issues that russia has faced when it comes to economic performance or declining energy prices and therefore declining energy revenues and the absence of structural reforms and so even if the sanctions came off tonight it's not as if you would see the russian economy suddenly take off and head down the runway but if it had access to cheap financing for example if they could. you know you wouldn't know it would hear this but coming back to the previous question this is what we share in common we need to have a conversation among all societies especially those that industrialized back in the
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early part of the twentieth century about what's next i don't think that we're going to prosper by building air conditioners and refrigerators we are not going back to an economy in which the average american feels secure because he's building air conditioners right we're now in a knowledge economy digital economy innovation and so i think that all of our societies need to come together to figure out how to make sure that we capitalize on innovation and make sure that our societies are happy and stable that's a nice conciliatory i know it's here on the program long i also invite our viewers to leave comments and i facebook and twitter pages and hope to see you again same place same time here and all the part.
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of that i'll. get you to tell. you that outside of the. by then coffee session not that. bad there is a system on. ok not a threat of course is going on want. so much to look. so it. can you know support was if you have to go to the pope multiple injuries
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among can connect to so the keeps a few of the robot shows real you know mars on the phone to the phone the home team of a complete professional services say yes but i'm going to stop looking at more awesome what in my. own image of nothing. off allowed me to see it something that was. on long enough something not subtle. and the tunnels look my stuff but up to now maybe i'm maybe i'm a bit cooler than. i see at now wants to see you next time i'm out still at the semi i'm going to ask. who's your mole you know to. raise money for both scenarios for the blog i don't
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