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Government 
Publications 






SESSIONAL PAPERS 



VOLUME 16 



FOURTH SESSION OF THE TENTH PARLIAMENT 



OF THE 



DOMINION OF CANADA 



SESSION 1907-8 




VOLUME XLII 




10 917 5C 



Edw. VII. 



Alphabetical Index to Sessional Papers. 



A. 1908 



See also Numerical List Page 5. 

ALPHABETICAL INDEX 

TO THE 

SESSIONAL ^PAPERS 

OF THE 

PARLIAMENT OF CANADA 



FOURTH SESSION, TENTH PARLIAMENT, 1907-8 



A 

Acetylene Gas Buoys 209 

Adulteration of Food 14 

Agriculture, Annual Report 15 

Alaska Boundary 54 

Aluminum Exports and Imports. .136, 136a 
Applications for crossing railway 

tracks 86 

Archives, Canadian 18 

Astronomer, Chief, Report of 25a 

Athabasca Fish Co 225 

Auditor General, Annual Report.. .. 1 

B 

Bait Freezer and Cold Storage 101 

Banks, Chartered 6 

Banks, Unpaid Balances in 7 

Barbados, Trade Conference at 158 

Bastedo, Samuel Tovel 139 

Bate, H. N. & Co 199 

Beauharnois Canal 83 

Belleville Harbour 163 

Bell Telephone Co 122 

Blunden, Frederick 165 

Bonds and Securities 44 

Boone Company 177 

Bounties paid by Government 93 

Bow River 202 

Bridge Materials from U. S 194 

British and Continental Ports 21c 

British Canadian Loan and Invest- 
ment Co 128 

British Columbia : — 

Chinese in Public Schools 74 

Disallowance 84 

Dominion Lands 46 

Indian Reserves 169 

Joly de Lotbiniere, Sir Henri.. .. 75 

Metlakatla Indian Reserve 89 

Natal Act 99 

Patterson, J. W 90b 

Revenue and Expenditure 219 

7461—1 



B 

British Columbia: — 

Richard L. Drury 164 

W. Maxwell Smith Ill 

Brodeur, Hon. L. P., &c, Travelling 

Expenses 109, 109b 

By-Elections, House of Commons.. .. 17b 

C 

Canada Year Book 66 

Canadian Manufacturers' Associa- 
tion 234, 234a 

Canadian Pacific Railway: — 

Business with Interior Department. 45 

Lands sold by 69 

Liability for Taxation 203 

Canadian Transportation 21c 

Canal Statistics 20a 

Cassels, Hon. Walter 182 to 182c 

Cattle Embargo 187 

Census, Agricultural 188 

Census, North-west Provinces 17a 

Central Experimental Farm 80, 112 

Chartered Banks 6 

Chinese and Japanese 74b to 74<7 

Civil Service : — 

Examiners 31 

Insurance 49 

List 30 

Report of Royal Commission . . . . 29a 

Superannuations 51 

Coal Lands 108 to 108ft 

Coal, Timber and Mining Lands. 88 to 88bb 

Cold Storage and Bait Freezer.. .. 101 

Cold Storage Report 15a 

Colonial Conference, 1907 58, 109a 

Colonization Lands 155 to 155d 

Commissions of Inquiry 182d 

Congdon, F. T 55 to 55/ 

Convicts in Penitentiaries 179 

Criminal Statistics 17 

Customs Department Officers 156c 



7 Echv. VII. 



Alphabetical Index to Sessional Papers. 



A. 1908 



D 

Dairy and Cold Storage Report.. .. 15a 

Delisle, Michel Simeon 210 

Dividends Unpaid in Banks 7 

Dolkese Indians 197, 197a 

Dominion Lands 90c 

Dominion Police 67 

Dredging Work.. 121 to 124c, 141, 141a, 204 

Drill Halls 193 

Drysdale, lion. Arthur 176 

Dunne, M. C 81a 

E 

Eclipse Manufacturing Co 129 

Edwards, W. C. & Co 199 

Elections, House of Commons 175 

Elections, Forms for 61 

Electricity and Fluid Exportation Act 137 

Electric Light, Inspection of 13 

Estimates 3 to 4a 

Exchequer Court Rules 53 

Excise Revenue 12 

Expenditure by Government in N.S. 102 
Experimental Farms 16 

F 

Fast Line of Steamers 100 

Fertilizers, Analysis of 235 

Fishermen, Bounty to 56 to 56b 

Fire Extinguishers 160, 160u 

Fisheries Act, Violation of 168 

Fisheries, Annual Report 22 

Fisheries Treaty 215, 215a 

Fishing Licenses 143 

Forbes, F. F., Judge 85 

Forestry, Report of Supt. of 25 

France and Canada, Commerce. .10a, 10b 

G 

Garrison Artillery Companies 196 

Gas, Inspection of 13 

Gaudet, Victor, Eeport of 211 

Geographic Board 21a 

Geological Survey Report 26 

Georgian Bay Ship Canal.. 19a, 178 to 178b 

Government Vessel? 148, 148a, 170 

Governor General, Expenditure for 

office of 146 

Governor GeneraFs Warrants 50 

Grain, Movements of 192 

Grain Trade, Eeport of Royal Com- 
mission 59 

Grand Trunk Pacific Town and Deve- 
lopment Co 90c 



G 

Grand Trunk Railway: 

Entrance into Toronto 63 

Major's Hill Park Site 76 

Sale of Liquors 61, 61a 

Grazing Lands 155a 

H 

Harbour Commissioners 23 

Heath Point 198 

Hillsboro' Bridge 186 

House of Commons : — 

Changes in the Staff 149 

Elections for '. 17b 

Internal Economy .. ..37, 37a 

Returns presented 150 

Hudson Bay, Railroad to 138 

Huntingdon, Waterway in 161 

I 

Immigrants, Expenditure for 81j 

Immigrants in Canada 81d, 81g 

Immigration Agents 81c, 81b 

Immigration Agents in Ontario.. ..81b, 81/t 
Immigration from the Orient and 

India 36a 

Imperial Conference, 1907 58, 109a 

Indian Affairs, Annual Eeport 27 

Indian Agent Yeomans 103 

Indian Reserves 159 

Industrial Disputes Inspection Act.. 131 
Inland Revenue, Annual Report.. .. 12 

Insurance, Abstract 9 

Insurance, Annual Report 8 

Intercolonial Railway: — 

Accident at Mulgrave 205b 

Belfast and Murray Harbour.. .. 205i 

Claims for Damages 205 

Fences 205ff 

Freight Rates 119, 205a 

Highway Crossings 39fc, 397 

Locomotives 205d, 205/ 

New Accounting System 20oh 

Steel Rails 205e 

Trains Breaking Down 205c 

Various Expenditures 78 

Winter and Summer Tariffs 127 

Interior, Annual Report 25 

International Boundary 54a, 54b 

International Waterways Commission. 

19b, 19c 
J 

Japanese and Chinese 74b to 74o 

Joly de Lotbiniere, Sir Henri 75 

Justice, Annual Report 34 



7 Edw. VII. 



Alphabetical Index to Sessional Papers. 



A. 190S 



L 

Labour Department, Annual Report of 36 

Lake, Major General, Memorandum of 22S 

Lands, Dominion 90c 

La Societe Canadienne 200 

Library of Parliament, Annual Report 33 

List of Shipping 21b 

M 

Madden, Report of Justice CO 

Mail Subsidies to Steamships 82 

Manitoba Homestead Entries 155?; 

Marconi Stations 183, 183a 

Marine and Fisheries Department, 

Bookkeeping in 142 

Marine, Annual Report 21 

Measures, Inspection of 13 

Meat and Food Inspection Act.. 91, 131, 134a 
Members of Parliament appointed to 

Offices 52, 230 

Metlakatla and Songhees Indians.. 1976 

Midland Towing and Wrecking Co... 123 

Military Institutions, Provisions for.. 104 

Military Service, Appointments to the 94 

Militia, Colonels in the 73 

Militia Council, Annual Report.. .. 35 

Militia Dress Regulations 41a 

Militia General Orders 41 

Miller, X. B 81 

Mill Settlement, West 171 

M. J. Wilson Cordage Co 113 

Mines, Report of Department.. ..26 to 26b 

Mining, Coal and Timber Lands 88 to 8866 

Mint, Royal 71 

Moncton Car Work= 107 

Montcalm-Milwaukee Collision 221 

Montreal Examining Warehouse. . . . 120 

Montreal Turnpike Trust 126, 126a 

Mounted Police 28 

Mulgrave, Xova Scotia 2056 

Mc 

McDonald, A. G 81f 

Mcllreith, R. T 1S1, 181a 

N 
National Transcontinental Railway. 39 to 39h 

Engineering Staff 62a 

Resignation of Mr. Hodgins 62 

Routes in New Brunswick 180 

Values of Tenders 626 

Xew Brunswick and Xova Scotia Mails 171c 

Xewspapers, Money paid to.. .. 174 to 1746 

Xorth Grove, Grenville 171a 

Xova Scotia, Expenditure by govern- 
ment in 162 

7461— n 



O 

Office Specialty Co 184 

Opium Traffic 366, 36c 

Orders in Council 47 

Oriental Labourers, Report of W. L. 

M. King 74a. 74h 

Ottawa Improvement Commission.. .. 70 

Ouimet, Judge J. A 65 

P 

Peace River Valley 106 

Penitentiaries, Annual Report 34 

Petit Rocher Breakwater 147, 147a 

Petrel, Steamer 21S 

Pevelan & Co 72 

Piers or Docks in Ontario 92: 

Police, Dominion 67 

Police, Royal Xorthwest Mounted 2S 

Port Burweil Harbour 217 

Port Maitland 92, 92a 

Postal Charges iffi 

Postal Service Delays I7it? 

Postmaster General, Annual Report. 24 

Pound Xet Licenses 130 

Power, Augustus, Report of 55 

Prince Edward Island : — 

Alex. McLeod 171ft 

Archibald McDonald I7id 

Branch Railway Lii.e- 190 

Expenditure 216 

Freight and Passenger Rates.. .. 205a 

Freight on Winter Steamers.. .. 110 

Leasing Properties 145 

Lobster Fishery 231 ^ 

Mail Service i~\j 

Mrs. Mary Finlay 171^ 

Removal of Pest Office m g 

Rights of Vessels 20> 

Terms of Union 1S9 

Wharf at Little Sand^ 125 

Winter Communication 212 

Withdrawal of Winter Steamers.. 110a 

Printing and Lithographing 220 

Public Accounts Annual Report .... 2 

Publications having Xewspaper Rate. 195 

Public Buildings 229, 232 

Public Printing and Stationery . . . . 32 

Public Works, Annual Report 19 

Q 

Quebec Bridge: — 

Report of Royal Commission.. .. 154 

Reports and Orders in Council.. 154a 

Stock Subscribed 1546 

Quebec, Founding of 287 

Quebec Harbour 233 



7 Edw. VH. 



Alphabetical Index to Sessional Papers. 



A. 1908 



B 

Railway Commissioners, Report of 20c 

Railway Crossings 39/, fc and I, 115 

Railways and Canals, Annual Report. 20 

Railways not under Commissioners.. 39j 

Railway Statistics 20b 

Reductions and Remissions 95 

Regina Lands District 77 

Robertson, E. Blake, Report of 81fc 

Robins Irrigation Co 206 

Ross Rifle Company 68 to 68d 

Ross Rifle Hand-book 42 

Royal Northwest Mounted Police.. .. 28 



Sabourin, Major 153 

Samovici, A., and Bolocan, H 116 

Saskatchewan, Province of: — 

Fishing Licenses 105, 151 

Homestead Entries 90, 90a 

Saskatchewan Act 185 

Valley Land Co 90d 

Savard, Doctor Edmond 222 

Secretary of State, Annual Report.. 29 

Seed Grain 25d 

Seizures by Inland Revenue Depart- 
ment 156 to 156b 

Senate: — 

Appointments to 52, 114 

Bills sent from 121 

Committee on Railways, &c 166 

Debates 135 

Senators appointed to office 230 

Shareholders in Chartered Banks.. . 6 

Shepley, Mr., K.C 175 

Shipping, List of 21b 

Six Nations Indians 197c 

Sorel, Piers at 167 

Spain, Commander, Expenses of 162 

Standard Chemical Co 72 

St. ^drews Rapids 96 

Steamboat Inspection 23a 

Steamship Fast Line 100 

Steamship Traffic 10c 

Steel Concrete Co 172 

St. Gabriel de Brandon 171/ 

St. Lawrence River, Damming of.. 140, 140a 
Supplies for Department of Marine 

and Fisheries 214 

Supreme Court, N.S., Suit in 117 

Sutherland Rifle Sight Co 226 



T 

Temperance Colonization Co 223 

Timber, Application to cut 78 

Timber, Coal and Mining Lands. .88 to 88bb 

Tobacco Industry 157, 157a 

Tonnage at St. John and Halifax 227 

Topographical Surveys, Report on 25b 

Toronto Harbour 213 

Trade and Commerce, Annual Report 10 

Trade and Navigation, Annual Report 11 

Trade Unions 43 

Transcontinental Railway 39 to 39h. 

Transport on Government Account.. 224 
Treaty between Great Britain and 

United States 215, 215a 

Treaty Powers 144 

Trent Canal 133 

U 

Unclaimed Balances in Banks 7 

Unforeseen Expenses 48 

United States Warships 191 

V 

Valleyfield, Regiment in 153a 

Volunteer Camps, Contracts for.. .. 118 

W 

Waugh, James S 81e 

Weights, Measures, &c 13 

Wilberforce, Dam at 132 

Windsor, Detroit and Belle Isle Ferry 

Co 98 

Y 

Yukon : — 

Criminal Conspiracy 97 

Estates of Deceased Persons.. .. 55b 

Finnic, O. S 152 

Lands at Whitehorse 55e 

Lord's Day Act 57 

Mining Regulations 201 

Morality of the Yukon 55d 

Ordinances 40 

Placer Claims 173, 173a 

Report of Commissioner 25c 

Report of Mr. Beddoe 55a 

Rev. John Pringle 55c, 55/ 

Right to divert water 87 

W. H. P. Clement 55i 

W. W. B. Mclnnes 55g 



7 Edw. VII. -List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



See also Alphabetical Index, page 1. 

LIST OF SESSIONAL PAPERS 

Arranged in Numerical Order, with their titles at full length; the dates when Ordered 
and when Presented to the Houses of Parliament; the Name of the Senator or 
Member who moved for each Sessional Paper, and whether it is ordered to be 
Printed or Not Printed. 

CONTENTS OF VOLUME 1. 

(This volume is bound in two parts.) 

1. Report of the Auditor General for the nine months ended 31st March, 1907. Partial report 

presented 28th November, 1907, by Hon. W. S. Fielding; also 2nd December and 17th 
December Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

CONTENTS OF VOLUME 2. 

2. Public Accounts of Canada, for the fiscal period of nine months ended 31st March, 1907. 

Presented 28th November, 1907, by Hon. W. S. Fielding. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

3. Estimates of the sums required for the services of Canada for the year ending 31st March, 

1909. Presented 11th December, 1907, by Hon. W. S. Fielding. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

3a. Further Supplementary Estimates for the year ending 31st March, 1909. Presented 9th 

July, 1908, by. Hon. W. S. Fielding.. .Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

4. Supplementary Estimates for the twelve months ending 31st March, 1908. Presented 

3rd February, 1908, by Hon. W. S. Fielding. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

4a. Supplementary Estimates for the year ended 31st March, 1908. Presented 16th March, 

1908, by Hon. W. S. Fielding Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

5. (No issue.) 

6. List of Shareholders in the Chartered Banks of Canada, as on the 31st December, 1907. 

Presented 8th May, 1908, by Hon. S. A. Fisher. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

CONTENTS OF VOLUME 3. 

7. Report of dividends remaining unpaid, unclaimed balances and unpaid drafts and bills 

of exchange in Chartered Banks of Canada, for five years and upwards, prior to 31st 
December, 1907. Presented 29th June, 1908, by Hon. W. S. Fielding. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

CONTENTS OF VOLUME 4. 

8. Report of the Superintendent of Insurance for the year ended 31st December, 1907. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

9. .Abstract of Statements of Insurance Companies in Canada, for the year ended 31st Decem- 

ber, 1907. Presented 14th May, 1908, by Hon. W. S. Fielding. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 
5 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 5. 

10. Keport of the Department of Trade and Commerce, for the fiscal year (nine months) 

ended 31st March, 1907. Part I.— Canadian Trade. Presented 29th November, 1907, by 
Hon. W. S. Fielding. Part II. — Trade of Foreign Countries and Treaties and Conven- 
tions. Presented 11th March, by Hon. W. Paterson. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

CONTENTS OF VOLUME 6. 

10a. Convention respecting the Commercial Relations between France and Canada, entered 
into at Paris on the 19th day of September, 1907, between His Majesty and the President 
of the French Republic. Presented 28th November, 1907, by Hon. W. S. Fielding. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

10b. Correspondence and memoranda in connection with the Convention of 1907, respecting 
the commercial relations between France and Canada. Presented 9th January. 1908, by 
Hon. W. S. Fielding Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

10c. Supplement to Report of Department of Trade and Commerce, with statistics showing 
steamship traffic, &c. Presented 17th March, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

11. Tables of the Trade and Navigation of Canada, for the nine months of the fiscal year 

ended 31st March, 1907. Presented 2nd December, 1907, by Hon. W. Paterson. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

CONTENTS OF VOLUME 7. 

12. Inland Revenues of Canada. Excise, &c, for tLe nine months ended 31st March, 1907. 

Presented 28th November, 1907, by Hon. W. Templeman. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

13. Inspection of Weights, Measures, Gas and Electric Light, for the nine months ended 

31st March, 1907. Presented 28th November, 1907, by Hon. W. Templeman. 

Printed for both distribution qnd sessional papers. 

14. Report on Adulteration of Food, for the nine months ended 31st March, 1907. Presented 

28th November, 1907, by Hon. W. Templeman. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

15. Report of the Minister of Agriculture, for the year ended 31st March. 1907. Presented 

2nd December, 1907, by Hon. S. A. Fisher. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 
15a. Report of the Dairy and Cold Storage Commissioner for the year ending 31st March, 
1907. Presented 10th February, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

CONTENTS OF VOLUME 8. 

16. Report of the Directors and Officers of the Experimental Farms for 1906 Presented 

10th January, 1908, by Hon. S. A. Fisher. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

17. Criminal Statistics for the year ended 30th September. 1907. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 
17a. Census of Population and Agriculture of the Northwest Provinces: Manitoba, Saskat- 
chewan and Alberta, 1906. Presented 18th February, 1908, by Hon. S. A. Fisher. 
See 17 a, 1907. 
17b. Return of By-Elections for the House of Commons of Canada, held during the year 
1907. Presented 6th March, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

18. Canadian Archives. See No. 15, page Iv. 

6 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 9. 

19. Report of the Minister of Public Works, for the fiscal period ended 31st March, 1907. 

Presented 2nd December. 1907, by Hon. W. Pugsley. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 
19a. Georgian Bay Ship Canal Survey. Eeport on the Precise Levelling; from 1904 to 1907. 
Published by the Department of Public Works. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

19b. Progress Report of the International Waterways Cdmmission. Supplementary Report 
to 31st December, 1907. Presented 5th June, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 
19c. Supplementary Report of the International Waterways Commission, 1908. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

20. Report of the Department of Railways and Canals, for the fiscal period from 1st July, 

1906, to 31st March, 1907. Presented 29th November, 1907, by Hon. G. P. Graham. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

CONTENTS OF VOLUME 10. 

20a. Canal Statistics for the season of navigation, 1906. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

20b. Railway Statistics of Canada for the year ended 30th June, 1907. Presented 16th 

January, 1908, by Hon. G. P. Graham. Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

20c. Second Report of the Board of Railway Commissioners for Canada, 1st April, 1906, to 

, 31st March, 1907. Presented 29th November, 1907, by Hon. G. P. Graham. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

21. Report of the Department of Marine and Fisheries (Marine) for 1907. Presented 18th 

December, 1907, by Hon. L. P. Brodeur. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 
21a. Seventh Report of the Geographic Board of Canada, 1907-8. 

Printed for both distribution and sessioyial papers. 

21b. List of Shipping issued by the Department of Marine and Fisheries, being a list of 

vessels on the registry books of Canada, on the 31st December, 1907. Presented 24th 

June, 1908, by Hon. L. P. Brodeur. ..Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

CONTENTS OF VOLUME 11. 

21c. Report on British and Continental Ports, with a view to the development of the port 
of Montreal and Canadian transportation. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

22. Report of the Department of Marine and Fisheries (Fisheries) for 1907. Presented 18th 

December, 1907, by Hon. L. P. Brodeur. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

23. Report of the Harbour Commissioners. &c. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 
23a. Report of the Chairman of the Board of Steamboat Inspection, 1907. Presented 27th 
February, 1908, by Hon. L. P. Brodeur. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

CONTENTS OF VOLUME 12. 

24. Report of the Postmaster General, for the nine months ended 31st March, 1907. Presented 

3rd December, 1907, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier. 

F'rinted for both distribution and sessional papers. 

25. Report of the Department of the Interior, for the fiscal period from 1st July, 1906, to 

31st March, 1907. Presented 29th November, 1907, by Hon. F. Oliver. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

7 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 13. 

25a. (1906) Report of the Chief Astronomer for the year ended 30th June, 1903. Presented 17th 
December, 1907, by Hon. F. Oliver.. .Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

25a. (1907) Eeport of the Chief Astronomer for the nine months ending 31st March, 1907. 

Printed for both distribution and sessioyial papers. 

25b. Annual Report of the Topographical Surveys Branch (Department of the Interior) 
1906-7. Presented 8th June, 1908, by Hon. F. Oliver. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

25c. Report of the Commissioner of the Yukon Territory, for the year ended 31st March, 
1908 Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

25d. Correspondence and papers relating to Seed Grain in Saskatchewan and Alberta. 
Presented 18th July, 1908, by Hon. F. Oliver. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

26. Summary Report of the Department of Mines (Geological Survey), for the calendar year 

1907. Presented 16th January, 1908, by Hon. W. Templeman. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

26a. Summary Report of the Mines Branch of the Department of Mines, for the fiscal year 
1907-8. Presented 17th July, 1908, by Hon. W. Templeman. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional paper'*. 

266. Annual Report on the Mineral Production in Canada, during the calendar year 1906. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

CONTENTS OF VOLUME 14. 

27. Report of the Department of Indian Affairs, for the year ended 31st March, 1907. Pre- 

sented 29th November, 1907, by Hon. F. Oliver. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

28. Report of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police, 1907. Presented 29th January, 1908, by 

Sir Wilfrid Laurier Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

29. Report of the Secretary of State of Canada, for the year 1907. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

CONTENTS OF VOLUME 15. 

29a. Report of the Royal Commission on the Civil Service, with appendices and evidence 
taken before the Commissioners. Presented 26th March, 1908, by Hon. W. S. Fielding; 
also Analytical Index of evidence and memorials. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

CONTENTS OF VOLUME 16. 
29a. Report of the Royal Commission on the Civil Service — Continued. 

30. Civil Service List of Canada, 1907. Presented 3rd December, 1907, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

CONTENTS OF VOLUME 17. 

31. Report of the Board of Civil Service Examiners, for the year ended 31st December, 1907. 

Presented 8th May, 1908, by Hon. S. A. Fisher. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

32. Annual Report of the Department of Public Printing and Stationery, 1907. Pesented 11th 

May, 1908, by Hon. S. A. Fisher Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

33. Report of the Joint Librarians of Parliament for the year 1907. Presented 28th Novem- 

ber. 1907. by the Hon. the Speaker Printed for sessional papers. 

8 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 190S 



CONTENTS OE VOLUME 17— Continued. 

34. Report of the Minister of Justice as to Penitentiaries of Canada, for the nine months 

ended 31st March, 1907. Presented 4th December, 1907, by Hon. J. Bureau. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

35. Annual Report of the Militia Council of Canada, 1907. (Interim Report presented 6th 

March, 1908.) Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

36. Report of the Department of Labour, for the nine months ended 31st March, 1907. Pre- 

sented 18th December, 1907, by Sir "^ ilf rid Laurier. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

36a. Report of W. L. Mackenzie Ring, C.M.G., Deputy Minister of Labour, on his mission 
to England to confer with the British authorities on the subject of immigration to 
Canada from the Orient, and immigration from India, in particular 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

36b. Report by W. L. Mackenzie King, C.M.G., Deputy Minister of Labour, on the need for 
the suppression of the opium traffic in Canada. Presented 3rd July, 1908, by Hon. R. 
Lemieux Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

36c. Return to an address of the Senate, dated 16th July, for all correspondence, reports, 
memorials and protests forwarded to the Government in connection with the opium 
trade in Canada, whether asking for the suppression of said trade or otherwise. Pre- 
sented 18th July, 1908.— Hon. Sir Mackenzie Bowell Xot printed. 

37. Minutes of proceedings of the Board of Internal Economy of the House of Commons, 

pursuant to Rule of the House, number 9. Presented 2nd December, 1907, by the Hon. 

The Speaker Xot printed. 

37a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 10th February, 190S. Minutes of 
proceedings of the Board of Internal Economy of the House of Commons from 1st 
January, 1902, to 1st January, 1906. Presented 6th March, 1908.— Mr. Roche (Marquette). 

Xot printed. 

38. A copy of the new rules of the Supreme Court of Canada, promulgated on the 19th day of 

June, 1907. Presented 28th November, 1907, by the Hon. The Speaker Xot printed. 

38a. Rules and orders of the Supreme Court of Judicature for Ontario, passed on the 27th 
March, 1908, under the power conferred by the Criminal Code. Presented 12th May, 
1908, by Hon. A. B. Aylesworth Xot printed. 

39. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th July, 1908, showing the length 

of the National Transcontinental Eailway from Moncton, New Brunswick, to Prince- 
Rupert, in the province of British Columbia, and the estimated cost of the same. 

Presented 6th July, 1908.— Hon. G. P. Graham Xot printed. 

39a. Report of the Commissioners of the Transcontinental Railway for the fiscal period 
ending 31st March, 1907. Presented 29th November, 1907, by Hon. G. P. Graham. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

39b. Supplementary return to an order of the House of Commons, dated )2th December, 
1907, showing: 1. The estimated quantities used by the Transcontinental Railway Com- 
mission for arriving at the moneyed values of the tenders for the construction of the 
50 miles, more or less, from Moncton westerly ; for the construction of 62 miles, more 
or less, from Grand Falls westerly; from the south side of the St. Lawrence river, 
easterly 150 miles ; for the 45 miles more or less westerly from near La Tuque ; and 
for the 150 miles easterly from near Abitibi, known as the Abitibi section. 2. The 
various prices which each tenderer placed opposite the several items in the schedule or 
form of tender. 3. The total number so ascertained of each tender. Presented 24th 
January, 1908. — Mr. Schell (Glengarry) Xot printed. 

39c. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 8th January, 1908, for a copy of 
all tenders received up to date (30th November, 1907) by, and now under contract to, 
the commission appointed for the construction of that portion of the line of the 

9 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 17— Continued. 
Transcontinental Railway between the city of Winnipeg, in the province of Manitoba, 
and the city of Moncton, in the province of New Brunswick; that such copy or 
return shall contain (1) signatures attached to the tenders; (2) the total amount of 
each tender as " moaeyed out" by the said commission; (3) the quantity of each class 
or kind of material as used by the said commission in figuring out the cost; (4) the 
price per unit of prices submitted by those who responded to the invitation for 
tenders; and (5) the total cost of each item in the schedule, which, added together, 
gives the grand total cost of each undertaking tendered for. Presented 24th January, 
1908.— Mr. Taylor Not printed. 

39d. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 29th January, 1908, showing to 
whom, and when, the National Transcontinental Railway Commission awarded contracts 
for the transportation of supplies, on District E, between the following points, namely : — 
(a)Grassett to Cache 9, (b)Montizambert to New Cache 9 A, on Negogami river; (c) Jack- 
fish to Caches 10, 11 A, and 12 (d)Nipigon to Caches 12 A, 13, 14, 15, Orababika and 
Wabinosh warehouses and Cache 16, on District F; the distances in each contract, the 
contract rate and terms ; the amounts that have been paid to date on each contract ; 
who erected the cache and dwelling house at the line crossing on Kebinakagami river; 
also the new buildings at line crossing of Negogami river, and the warehouses at 
Jackfish; the cost of these buildings, respectively; and if tenders were invited for 
above transportation and building contracts. Presented 6th February, 1908. — Mr. Boyce. 

Not printed. 

39e. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 3rd February, 1908, for a copy of 
the clauses and conditions, regulations and specifications contained in the contracts, in 
virtue of which the National Transcontinental Railway is being built, and that are 
for the purpose of safeguarding, securing and guaranteeing the suppliers of the con- 
tractors, to whom the work of construction has been accorded, thb payment of theii 
claims against the said contractors; likewise a list of the contracts signed, up to the 
present, in which appear the said clauses guaranteeing or securing the said suppliers 
the payment of their said bills or claims. Presented 13th February, 1908. — Mr. Morin. 

Not printed. 

39/. Return (in part) to an Address of the House of Commons, dated 23rd March, 1908, for a 
copy of all orders in council, reports, surveys, contracts, tenders, agreements, books, 
memoranda, documents, and papers of every kind, showing, relating to, or concerning 
the length of the National Transcontinental Railway from (a) Winnipeg to Quebec, 
(b)Quebec to Moncton, and the estimated or probable average cost per mile of the same, 
aud all other information relating to the total cost or the cost per mile of the said 
railway. Presented 21st April, 1908. — Mr. Borden (Carleton) Not printed. 

39#. Letters from the chairman of the Board of Commissioners of the Transcontinental 
Railway, the chief engineer and others, in connection with certain allegations made by 
Major A. E. Hodgins, late district engineer of Section F, Transcontinental Railway. 
Presented 24th April, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier Not printed. 

39/i. Copy of the commission appointing Lucien Pacaud, Esquire, of the city of Quebec, as 
police magistrate, to carry out the law against the sale of intoxicating liquors within 
certain limits, along the line of the eastern extension of the Transcontinental Railway. 
Presented 8th May, 1908, by Hon. A. B. Aylesworth Not printed. 

39i. Return to an order of the Senate, dated 1st April, 1908, based on the records in the 
offices of the Railway Commission, showing the total number of persons killed or 
injured by being struck by engines or trains on highway crossings, said return to show 
the number of persons so killed or injured on the lines of each railway company 
separately for the years ending 31st March, 1905, 1906 and 1907, such return to include 
all persons killed or injured as above described irrespective of any contention of the 
railway companies or opinion of the officers of the Railway Commission as to the legal 
rights of the said persons to use the highway crossing at the time of the accidents. 

Presented 12th May, 1908.— Hon. Mr. McKay (Truro) Not printed. 

10 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 17— Continued. 

39;. Return to an order of the Senate, dated 9th April, 1908, giving a list of all railways in 
Canada which are not under the control or jurisdiction of the Board of Kail way Com- 
missioners; and stating in each case the reason why the railway is not controlled by 
the commission. Presented 12th May, 1908.— Hon. Mr. McKay (Truro) Not printed. 

39k. Return (in part) to an order of the Senate, dated 27th March, 1908, showing, separately, 
the highway crossings at rail level on all railways, except railways under construction, 
within the jurisdiction of the Railway Commission in respect of which highway cross- 
ings, protection has been ordered by the board since its organization, said return to 
give the character of the protection ordered in each case, the name of the railway com- 
pany, the local designation of each highway crossing, and the county and province in 
which it is situated, and the date of the order and regulation in respect thereof; also 
a similar return giving the highway crossings ordered to be protected by the proper 
authority in each case on all railways not under the control of the board, including 
the Intercolonial Railway, and including orders made regarding railways under con- 
struction; also a similar return respecting all highway crossings, which had orders and 
regulations in respect to them in force, on the 1st day of February, 1904. Presented 
18th July, 1908.— Hon. Mr. Ferguson Not printed. 

391. Supplementary Return to No. 39fc. Presented 4th June, 1908 Not printed. 

40. Ordinances of the Yukon Territory passed by the Yukon Council in the year 1907. Pre- 

sented 3rd December, 1907, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier Not printed. 

41. General Orders issued to the militia between 2nd November, 1906, and 1st November, 

1907. Presented 9th December, 1907, by Sir Frederick Borden Not printed. 

41a. Dress Regulations for the Canadian militia, 1907. Presented 9th December, 1907, by 
Sir Frederick Borden Not printed. 

42. Ross Rifle Hand-book, 1907. Presented 9th December, 1907, by Sir Frederick Borden. 

Not printed. 

43. Return under chapter 125 (R.S.C.), 1906, intituled: " An Act respecting Trades Unions," 

submitted to Parliament in accordance with section 33 of the said Act. Presented 9th 
December, 1907, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier Not printed. 

44. A detailed statement of all bonds or securities registered in the Department of the 

Secretary of State of Canada, since last return, 4th December, 1906, submitted to the 
Parliament of Canada under section 32, chapter 19, of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 

1906. Presented 9th December, 1907, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier Not printed. 

45. Return (in so far as the Department of the Interior is concerned) of copies of all orders 

in council, plans, papers, and correspondence which are required to be presented to the 
House of Commons, under a resolution passed on 20th February, 1882, since the date of 
the last return, under such resolution. Presented 11th December, 1907, by Hon. F. 
Oliver Not printed. 

46. Return of orders in council which have been published in the Canada Gazette and in 

the British Columbia Gazette, between 1st December, 1906, and 1st December, 1907, in 
accordance with provisions of subsection (d) of section 38 of the regulations for the 
survey, administration, disposal and management of Dominion lands within the 40- 
mile railway belt in the province of British Columbia. Presented 11th December, 1907, 
by Hon. F. Oliver Not printed. 

47. Return of orders in council which have been published in the Canada Gazette between 

1st December, 1906, and 1st December, 1907, in accordance with the provisions of 
section 8 of chapter 55 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1906. Presented 11th December, 

1907, by Hon. F. Oliver Not printed. 

48. Statement of expenditure on account of miscellaneous unforeseen expenses from the 1st 

April. 1907, to the 28th November, 1907, in accordance with the Appropriation Act of 

1907. Presented 11th December, 1907, by Hon. W. S. Fielding Not printed. 

11 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 17— Continued. 

49. Statement in pursuance of section 17 of the Civil Service Insurance Act, for the nine 

months ending 31st March, 1907. Presented 11th December, 1907, by Hon. W. S. 
Fielding Not printed. 

50. Statement of Governor General's Warrants issued since the last session of parliament, on 

account of the fiscal year 1907-S. Presented 11th December, 1907, by Hon. W. S. Fielding. 

Not printed. 

51. Statement of superannuations and retiring allowances in the civil service during the 

year ended 31st December, 1907, showing name, rank, salary, service, allowance and 
cause of retirement of each person superannuated or retired, also whether vacancy 
filled by promotion or by new appointment, and salary of any new appointee. Pre- 
sented 11th December, 1907. by Hon. W. S. Fielding Not printed. 

52. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing: 

1. The names (a) of members of parliament and (b) ex-members of parliament who 
have been appointed to the Senate by the present administration, distinguishing 
between classes (a) and (b), giving the date of retirement in class (b) and date of 
appointment in all cases. 2. The names of members of parliament and of ex-members 
of parliament appointed to offices of emolument under the Crown by the present 
administration, distinguishing between the two classes and giving dates as in paragraph 
one mentioned. 3. The names of senators and ex-senators appointed to offices of emolu- 
ment under the Crown by the present administration, distinguishing between the two 
classes and giving dates as in paragraph one mentioned. Presented 12th December, 
1907. — Mr. Lennox Not printed. 

53. Exchequer Court rules (amended), general order of the 12th September, 1907. Presented 

12th December, 1907, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier Not printed. 

54. Copy of articles of convention of the 21st August, 190G, between the United States and 

Great Britain, as to the demarcation of the boundary line between Alaska in the 
United States and the British possessions in North America. Presented 16th December, 
1907, by Hon F. Oliver Printed for sessional papers. 

54a. Copy of a treaty between Great Britain and the United States providing for the more 
complete definition and demarcation of the international boundary between the Domi- 
nion of Canada and the United States, signed at Washington on 11th April, 1908. 
Presented 19th May, 190S, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

54b. Correspondence, orders in council and despatches in connection with the negotiation of 
a treaty between Great Britain and the United States for the definition and demarcation 
of the international boundary between Canada and the United States. Presented 4th 
June, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier. ..Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

55. Report of the investigation held last winter by Augustus Power, K.C., of the Justice 

Department, in respect of Mr. F. T. Congdon. Presented 16th December, 1907, by Hon. 
F. Oliver Not printed. 

55a. (1) Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 190S, showing all 
correspondence, petitions, statements, reports and papers having any relation to the 
claim of Mrs. Louise F. Wiley, and her infant daughter, concerning certain mining 
claims held by her husband in the Yukon, and which on his death without will are 
allowed to have gone into the possession or trusteeship of Frederick Tennyson Congdon, 
then public administrator in the Yukon, under appointment of the Dominion govern- 
ment, and all correspondence, reports, and papers, bearing upon Mr. Congdon's exa- 
mination, defence and connection therewith. Presented 24th February, 1908. — Mr. Foster. 

Not printed. 

55a. (2) Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 22nd January, 1908, for a 
copy of all orders in council, correspondence, reports, memoranda, evidence and other 
documents and papers of every description relating to the estate of the late Orren 

12 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 17— Continued. 

Leonard Wiley, or to the claim of Louise F. Wiley, or of her infant daughter, against 
the government or against Frederick T. Congdon as public administrator of the Yukon 
Territory, or otherwise as an official of the government, or to any charges against the 
enid Frederick T. Congdon as public administrator or otherwise as an official or 
employee of this government; excluding therefrom, however, any papers relating to the 
subjects which may be included in return ordered on the 13th instant, on motion of the 
honourable member for North Toronto. Presented 24th February, 1908. — Mr. Foster. 

Not printed. 

55b. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 29th January, 1908, for a copy 
of all orders in council, correspondence, evidence, memoranda and other documents 
and papers of every description, relating to or touching the conduct of all persons who 
hnve acted as public administrator in the Yukon Territory, or who have had charge 
or control by reason of their official position, of the estate of deceased persons in the 
Yukon Territory. And a copy of all 6uch documents and papers aforesaid as set forth 
and describe the action, if any, of the government in respect of any claims, charges or 
proposed proceedings against any such official in respect of his duties, acts or dealings 
as public administrator. Presented 24th February, 1908. — Mr. Lennox Not printed. 

55c. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, for a copy of 
all telegrams, affidavits, papers sent by and all correspondence had with Rev. John 
Pringle, presently of the Yukon, in connection with the condition of public matters 
therein and with public officials thereof, and especially in reference to one Frederick 
Tennyson Congdon, at one time commissioner of the Yukon, and one Girouard, registrar, 
and one Lithgow, controller and member of the Yukon Council and in particular letters 
sent by Rev. John Pringle, on or about January, 1902, and in or about January, 1905, 
and on or about 31st July, 1907, to the premier of Canada, and other ministers, detailing 
the condition of public matters in the Yukon and the replies thereto. Also showing 
what action, if any, was taken by the government in relation to the matters dealt 
with therein and the reports of any commissioner appointed to investigate the charges 
or any part of them. Presented 2nd March, 1908. — Mr. Foster Not printed. 

55d. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 20th January, 1908 for a copy of 
all correspondence relating- to the morality of the Yukon. Presented 11th March, 1908.— 
Mr. Thompson Not printed. 

55c. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 10th February, 1908, showing the 
parties to, whom were made the original grants from the Crown of the lands comprised 
within the limits of the town of Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, and any assignments 
made thereof, with names of parties, dates, and consideration therefor. Presented 
lGth March, 1908.— Mr. Foster Not printed. 

55/. Supplementary return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, 
for a copy of all telegrams, affidavits, papers sent; by. and all correspondence had with 
Reverend John Pringle, presently of the Yukon, in connection with the condition of 
public matters therein and with public officials thereof, and especially in reference to 
one Frederick Tennyson Congdon, at one time commissioner of the Yukon, and onn 
Girouard, registrar, and one Lithgow, controller and member of the Yukon Council; 
and in particular letters sent by Reverend John Pringle, on or about January, 1902, 
and in or about January, 1905, and on or about 31st July, 1907, to the Premier of 
Canada and other ministers, detailing the condition of public matters in the Yukon 
and the replies thereto; also showing what action, if any, was taken by the government 
in relation to the matters dealt with therein and the reports of any commissioner 
appointed to investigate the charges or any part of them. Presented 7th April, 1908.— 
Mr. Foster ..Not printed. 

13 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 17— Concluded. 

55a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated ISth February, 1907, for a copy of 
all letters, memorials, telegrams, petitions, resolutions and other communications, 
documents and papers from any person or persons in the Yukon to the Prime Minister 
or to the government, or any member or official of the government, respecting the 
official acts or conduct of Mr. W. W. B. Mclnnes as commissioner of the Yukon; 
including any petition asking for the removal of Mr. Mclnnes from his position as 
commissioner. Presented 7th April, 190S — Mr. Whitr Not printed. 

55/i. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 190S, for a copy of 
the report made by Mr. Beddoe upon the condition of the books, accounts, &c, of the 
financial administration of the Yukon, and especially with reference to the condition 
in the public administrator's office. Presented 21st April, 1908. — Mr Foster. 

Not printed. 

55i. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 30th March, 1908, for a copy of 
all orders in council, reports, correspondence, documents, and papers relating to the 
appointment of Mr. W. H. P. Clement as legal adviser to the council of the Yukon Ter- 
ritory, or as public administrator in the Yukon Territory, or to any other office of 
emolument in the Yukon Territory, or relating to the resignation of the said W. H. P. 
Clement from any such office, or relating to the circumstances under which and reasons 
for which the said W. H. P. Clement ceased to act as such legal adviser, public admin- 
istrator or in any other such capacity. Presented 7th May, 1908. — Mr. Sproule. 

Not printed. 

56. Statement of expenditure as to bounty to deep-sea fishermen, for the year 1906-7. Pre- 

sented 18th December, 1907, by Hon. L. P. Brodeur Not printed. 

56a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, showing the 
names and residences of all fishermen in the county of Cape Breton to whom fishing 
bounties were paid between 31st December, 1905, and 1st January, 190S, together with a 
statement .of the amount paid to each person, the date on which it was paid, and the 
name of the officer or person by whom the sum was paid. Presented 11th February, 
1908.— Mr. Borden (Carleton) Not printed. 

56b. Supplementary return to Xo. 56a. Presented 13th July, 190S Not printed. 

57. Correspondence and instructions with regard to the Lord's Day Act in its application to 

the Yukon Territory. Presented 18th December, 1907, by Hon. A. B. Aylesworth. 

Not printed. 

CONTENTS OF VOLUME 18. 

58. Minutes of Proceedings of the Colonial Conference held at the Colonial Office, Downing 

Street, London, from the 15th April to the 14th May, 1907. Presented 22nd May, 1908, 
by Sir Wilfrid Laurier Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

59. Report of the Royal Commission on the Grain Trade of Canada. Presented 8th January, 

1908, by Hon. F. Oliver Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

60. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, for a copy of 

the report of the Honourable Justice James Henry Madden, appointed by order in 
council, 15th May, 1907, to investigate and report upon the matter of arrears for rentals 
on certain leases at Dunnville, Welland Canal feeder. Presented 9th January, 1908.- 
Mr. Lalor Not printed. 

61. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy of 

all correspondence, petitions, statements, papers, orders in council, and proclamations 
respecting the setting out of limits for prohibition of the sale of liquors along the line 
of the Grand Trunk Pacific under the Public Works Construction Act. Presented 9th 

January, 1908.— Mr. Foster Not printed. 

61a. Supplementary return to No. 61. Presented 27th January, 1908 Not printed. 

14 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS 0E VOLUME 18— Continued. 

62. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy of 

all correspondence, documents, papers, memoranda, and reports, relating to the retire- 
ment, resignation,, or dismissal of Mr. Hodgins, C.E., from the service of the National 
Transcontinental Railway Commission, and the grounds or reasons therefor. Pre- 
sented 9th January, 1908.— Mr. Borden (Carlcton) Not printed. 

62a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, showing what 
changes, if any, have been made in the National Transcontinental Railway Commis- 
sion's engineering staff during the current calendar year. Presented 9th January, 
1908.— Mr. Macdonell Not printed. 

62b. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th December, 1907, showing : 
1. The estimated quantities used by the Transcontinental Railway Commission for 
arriving at the moneyed values of the tenders for the construction of the 50 miles, more 
or less, from Moncton westerly; for the construction of 62 miles, more or less, from 
Grand Falls westerly; from the south side of the St. Lawrence river, easterly 150 
miles; for the 45 miles more or less westerly from near La Tuque; and for the 150 
miles easterly from near Abitibi, known as the Abitibi section. 2. The various prices 
which each tenderer placed opposite the several items in the schedule or form of tender. 
3. The total amount so ascertained of each tender. Presented 9th January, 1908. — 
Mr. Schell (Glengarry). See also 39b Not printed. 

63. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy of 

all orders in council, correspondence, reports, opinions of the Department of Justice, 
memoranda, papers and documents; also of all plans or route maps relating to the 
proposed new eastern entrance of the Grand Trunk Railway Company into the city of 
Toronto. Presented 9th January, 1908. — Mr. Macdonell Not printed. 

64. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy of 

all writs, forms and instructions issued and used in and for the purposes of the several 
elections for Dominion constituencies in the year 1907. Presented 9th January, 1908.— 
Mr. Barker Not printed. 

65. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy of 

the order in council appointing Honourable J. A. Ouimet as judge of the Court of the 
King's Bench, as well as a copy of all correspondence, reports, medical certificates and 
order in council concerning his being pensioned. Presented 9th January, 1908. — 
Mr. Lanctot (Laprairie-Napierville) Not printed. 

66. The Canada Year Book, 1906. Presented 10th January, 1908, by Hon. S. A. Fisher. 

Printed separately. 

67. Report of the Commissioner, Dominion Police Force, for the year 1907. Presented 13th 

January, 1908, by Hon. A. B. Aylesworth Not printed. 

68. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1G07, showing: 

1. The number of officials of the government, civil or military, or officers of the active 
militia who perform , services in any way connected with the manufacture of rifles for 
the government by the Ross Rifle Company. 2. Their names, ranks, and duties, and 
the amount of their individual salary or remuneration. 3. The total amount, (apart 
from contract cost of rifle), or expenditure by the government with the Ross Rifle 
Company, including any bonus, loans, inspections, cost of testing, commissions, or 
expenditure of any kind, with the individual amounts. Presented 16th January, 1908.— 
Mr. Worthington Not printed. 

68a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing 
reports of commissions, boards of inquiry, inspections, reports of industrial officers, to 
the government or any member thereof, including reports from the comptroller, com- 
missioner, or any officer, or member of the Northwest Mounted Police, the Dominion 
Rifle Association, or any member thereof, or any rifle association or club, or any 

15 



7 Edw. VII. List, of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 18— Continued. 

member thereof, or to the commandant, or any member of the Bisley team, regarding 
the efficiency of the Ross rifle, to date. Presented 9th April, 1908. — Mr. Wcrthington. 

Not printed. 

68b. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th March, 1908, for a copy of all 
correspondence between the government or any department thereof, and the Ross Rifle 
Company, or any representative thereof, or between the government and any bank or 
other institution which has made advances under the contract between the government 
and the said company, or any representative of such bank or institution, relating to the 
accounts and financial or other affairs of the Ross Rifle Company, including any letters 
or correspondence from any official of the Bank of Montreal to the Auditor General. 
Presented 9th April, 1908. — Mr. Worthington Not printed. 

68c. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 18th March, 1908, for a copy of 
all correspondence, reports, communications and other papers and documents of every 
kind and description not already brought down, relative to the rifle known as the Ross 
rifle, or to the contract between the government and any person or corporation with 
respect to the said rifle, or to the value or efficiency thereof, or to any alleged defects 
therein; also a copy of all letters, telegrams, despatches, reports, and other communi- 
cations of every kind from the British government or any member or official thereof, 
or from the War Office, or Secretary of State for War, or any officer or official or 
person . employed by or in the service of the British government, to the Governor 
General of Canada, or to the government of Canada, or to the Minister of Militia, or 
to any officer or official or person in the public service of Canada, relative to the said 
rifle, or to the value or efficiency of the said rifle or any defects therein, or any matter 
or thing connected therewith. Presented 9th April, 1908. — Mr. Worthington. 

Not printed 

G8d. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy of 
all contracts between the Ross Rifle Company and the government, or the Department 
of Militia, for the supply of rifles, ammunition and other articles, and all orders in 
council, correspondence, reports ,documents and papers, relating to such contracts, 
and the subject-matter thereof, and to the operations of the company, and tc its dealings 
with the government, or any of the departments, including the Department of Customs, 
and the Bank of Montreal, or any banking institutions. Presented 9th April, 1908. — 
Mr. Worthington Not printed. 

69. Return of lands sold by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, from the 1st October, 

1906, to the 1st October, 1907. Presented 13th January, 1908, by Hon. F. Oliver. 

Not printed. 

70. Report of the Ottawa Improvement Commission for the nine months ended the 31st 

March, 1907. Presented 13th January, 1908, by Hon. W. S. Fielding. 

Printed for sessional papers. 

71. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing : 

1. How much money has been expended to date on the Royal Mint, for construction 
and equipment, respectively. 2. The sums required to complete on both accounts. 
3. The officers and employees, and at what yearly salaries, are required to man the 
institution. 4. The face value of copper and silver and gold coinage obtained by the 
government per year for the last ten years, and what it has cost the government 
therefor. 5. The total profit on coinage in the ten years. 6. The amount of coinage it 
is in contemplation to issue in 1908, and in what denominations. 7. Who is to make 
the purchases and fix the price of bullion necessary for the use of the Mint. 8. Upon 
what system the officers and employees of the Mint are appointed, promoted and dis- 
missed. Presented 13th January, 1908. — Mr. Foster Not printed. 

16 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1903 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 11— Continued. 

72. Supplementary return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 10th December, 

1906, for a copy of all orders in council, correspondence, and all other papers, relating 
to the Standard Chemical Company (Limited), or Pevelan & Co., in its dealings with 
the Customs and Inland Revenue Departments from the date of the incorporation of 
the said company to the present date. Presented 16th January, 190S. — Mr. Robitaille. 

Not printed. 

• 

73. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907 showing: 

1. .All promotions that have been made to the rank of colonel in the active militia 
during the past year, with names. 2. The nature of service, merit or seniority justi- 
fying such promotions. 3. The record of war services of such officers. 4. Previous to 
the gazetting of such promotion the positions held by such officers on the seniority list 
of the colonels. 5. The number of lieut.-colonels who were outranked or superseded by 
such promotions, with thtir names and services. Presented 17th January, 190S. — 
Mr. Worthington Not printed. 

74. Eeturn to an address of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy 

of all orders in council, correspondence, documents and papers relating to Chinese 
seeking admission to the public schools of British Columbia as students, and relating 
to the remission of head-tax on such persons Presented 20th January 1908. — 
Mr. Borden (Carleton) Not printed. 

74a. Report of W. L. Mackenzie King, commissioner to inquire into the methods by which 
oriental labourers (Japanese) haw been induced to come to Canada. Presented 20th 
January, 1908, by Hon. R. Lemieux Xot printed. 

74b. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 12th December, 1907, for a copy 
of all correspondence between the Government of Canada and the Imperial authorities, 
and a copy of all correspondence between the Government of Canada, and any person or 
persons, and of all reports communicated to the Government in respect to the Anglo- 
Japanese convention regarding Canada. Presented 21st January, 190S.— Mr. Borden 
(Carleton) Printed for sessional papers. 

74c. Supplementary return to Xo. 74b. Presented 21st January. 

Printed for sessional papers. 

74rf. Supplementary return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 

1907, for a copy of all orders in council, correspondence, documents and papers, during 
the past ten years, relating to the immigration of Chinese and Japanese into Canada. 
Presented 2-tth Februaiy, 1908. — Mr. Borden (Carleton) Not printed. 

74c. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated ISth December, 1907, for a copy 
of all orders in council, correspondence, documents and papers, during the present year, 
relating to the immigration of Japanese into Canada. Presented 9th March, 190S. — Mr. 

Borden (Carleton) Not printed. 

74'. Report of W. L. Mackenzie King, C.M.G., Deputy Minister of Labour, commissioner 
appointed to investigate into the losses sustained by the Chinese population of Van- 
couver, in the province of British Columbia, on the occasion of the riot in that city in 
September, 1907. Presented 30th June, 1908, by Hon. R. Lemieux. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

74j. Report by W. L. Mackenzie King, C.M.G., Deputy Minister of Labour, commissioner 

appointed to enquire into the losses and damages sustained by the Japanese population 

in the city of Vancouver, in the province of British Columbia, on the occasion of riots 

in that city in September, 1907. Presented 30th June, 1908, by Hon. R. Lemieux. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

74h. Report of W. L. Mackenzie King, C.M.G., commissioner appointed to enquire into 

methods by which Oriental labourers (Hindoo and Chinese) have been induced to come 

to Canada. Presented 13th July, 1908, by Hon. R. Lemieux Not printed. 

17 
7461—3 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 18— Continued. 

75. Return to address of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy of 

all correspondence, instructions or communications sent by the Government of Canada, 
through the Secretary of State or otherwise, to Sir Henri Joly de Lotbiniere, as Lieu- 
tenant Governor of British Columbia, during the years 1905 and 1906, respectively. 
Presented 21st January, 1908.— Mr. Borden (Carleton) Not printed. 

76. Copy of an order in council regarding sale of a portion of Major's Hill Park, Ottawa, to 

the Grand Trunk Railway Company as a site for a hotel. Presented 21st January, 1908, 
by Hon. W. Pugsley Not printed. 

77. Return to an order of the House of Ccmmons, dated 16th December, 1907, for a copy of 

any declarations or affidavits made by Robert Cruickshank, or other persons in the 
Regina Lands district, or any other complaints in regard to alleged improper or unau 
thorized charges by individuals, whether in the 'service of the Government or not, for 
locating settlers on homesteads, or obtaining for them entries for homesteads, by can- 
cellation or otherwise, together with all correspondence, reports, or other papers on the 
subject; also all communications, reports, correspondence, or other papers between the 
Department of the Interior and any of its officials and any person or persons in regard 
to homestead entries, cancellations, protections, inspectors' reports, &c, for the s.w. J 
sec. 16 and the n.w. \ sec. 20 and the n.w. and s.w. \ sec 36, all in tp 14, r. 9, w. 2nd M. 
Presented 23rd January, 1908. — Mr. Lake Not printed. 

78. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing how 

many applications were refused for permission, *as granted by order in council passed 
on 16th May, 1906, for saw-mill owners to cut timber. Presented 23rd January, 1908. 
— Mr. Roche (Marquette) Not printed. 

79. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th February, 1907, showing the 

total expenditure each constituency, as denned prior to last Redistribution Act, the 
the years 1897, 1898, 1899, 1900, 1901, 1902, 1903, 1904, 1905, and 1906, for: (a) Harbours 
and rivers, including dredging, wharfs, docks, breakwaters, piers, or other improve- 
ments and repairs, (b) For public buildings and lands, including repairs, extensions, 
&c. (c) Maintenance and caretakers, including fuel, lights, &o. (d) Expenditure in 
connection with Intercolonial Railway, including purchase of lands, erection of build- 
ings, repairs, &c, and improvements, and the place where spent. Presented 29th Janu- 
ary, 1908. — Mr. Sproule Not printed. 

80. Return to an order of the House of '"'ommons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing a 

summary of stock, implements, chattels, grain, hay, roots and all other kinds of fodder, 
with their value, for the years ending 1st December, 1906 and 1907; also the amount 
paid for all kinds of live stock, their kind and number, the amount paid for all kinds 
of feed, giving the kind, the amount of all kinds of product sold, and their kind ; the 
amount paid for all kinds of grain and seed for distribution for the same years, on 
the Central Experimental Farm, Ottawa. Presented 23rd January, 1908.- -Mr. Jackson 
(Elgin) Not printed. 

81. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing the 

number of immigrants secured and located by Mr. N. B. Miller, of the town of Napanee, 
in the county of Lennox and Addington, the names of such immigrant, his age, the 
names of the respective parties with whom they were located, also the township in 
which such party resides; also the amount of money received by the said N. B. Miller 
from the government for his services in salary, commission, or both; also the amount 
of moneys received by the said N. B. Miller, respectively, from residents in the said 
county of Lennox and Addington for his services in securing the aforesaid immigrants. 
Presented 23rd January, 1908. — Mr. Wilson (Lennox and Addington) Not printed. 

81a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing the 
number of immigrants secured and located by Mr. M. C. Dunne, of Yarker, in the 
county of Lennox and Addington, the names of each such immigrant, his age, the names 

18 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1903 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 18 — Continued. 

of the respective parties with whom they are located, also the township in which such 
party resides; also the amount of money received by the said M. C. Dunne from the 
government for his services in salary, commission, or both: also the amount of moneys 
received by the said 14. C. Dunne, respectively, from residents in the said county of 
Lennox and Addington for his services in securing the aforesaid immigrants. Pre- 
sented 23rd January, 1908.—- Mr. Wilson (Lennox and Addington) Xot printed. 

81b. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, showing list 
of the names of immigration agents appointed by the government in each county of the 
province of Ontario, the county in which each such agent is employed, the number 
of immigrants placed by each such agent, and the amounts paid to each such agent 
for his services and expenses. Presented 30th January, 1908. — Mr. Clements.Xot printed. 

81c. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy of 
all reports received by the government from each of the special immigration agents 
sent to Great Britain and the continent of Europe, for the fiscal year ending 31st 
March, 1907. Presented 30th January, 1908. — Mr. Wilson (Lennox and Addington). 

Xot printed. 

81d. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th December, 1907, showing the 
number of immigrants who reached and settled in Canada during the fiscal years of 
1905-6 and 1906-7, and from what countries they came. Presented 11th February, 190S. 
— Mr. Paquet Xot printed. 

81e. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 22nd January, 1908, for a copy of 
all correspondence between the Department of the Interior and James S. TVaugh, immi- 
gration distribution agent, subsequent to 1st December, 1907. Presented 11th February, 
1908— M r. Gordon Xot printed. 

81/. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 3rd February, 1908, showing what 
special immigration agents the Government of Canada has in the British Islands j their 
respective names, and from ^vhat parts of Canada they come ; the arrangements made 
by the Government with the said agent or agents as to salary and expenses ; the date 
of their respective appointments, and at what time they left this country to take up 
their work. Presented 11th February, 1908.— Mr. Wilson (Lennox and Addington I. 

Xot printed. 

81<7. Return to an Address of the House of Commons, dated 29th January, 190S, for a copy 
of all orders in council now in force with respect to immigration from every country 
from which immigrants come to Canada ; also a copy of all circulars in force at the 
present time with reference to immigration. Presented 13th February, 1908. — Mr. 
Wilson (Lennox and Addington j Xot printed. 

81/i. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 20th January, 1908, for a copy of 
all certificates by farmers resident in the riding of West Kent, and returned to the 
department by emigration agents for the said riding, and on certificates such agents 
were paid for placing emigrants with each farmer, giving the names of each emigrant 
and of each farmer such were placed with, giving the total amount received by each 
agent up to the present time Presented 3rd March, 190S. — Mr. Clements .. .Xot printed. 

81 i. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th March, 1908, for a copy of all 
certificates by A. G. McDonald, immigration agent for Prince Edward County, Ontario, 
claiming payment for immigrants by him alleged to have been placed with farmers or 
other employers; also, a copy of all certificates or communications by such farmers or 
other employers received by the Department of the Interior relating to immigrants so 
claimed as placed by said A. G. McDonald, giving in each case the name and post offke 
address of the immigrant and of the farmer or the employer. Presented 13th April, 

1908.— Mr. Alcorn Xot printed. 

19 
7461— M 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1903 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 18— Continued. 

81;'. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 23rd March, 1908, showing the 
expenditure of the Government for food, clothing and other maintenance for immi- 
grants after landing in Canada for the years 1900, 1901, 1902, 1903, 1904, 1905, 1906, 1907, 
1908, to 1st March. Presented 30th April, 1908.— Mr. Schaffner Not printed. 

81k. Report of E. Blake Robertson, assistant superintendent of immigration, respecting 
Joseph Bernstein, Halifax. Presented 27th May, 1908, by Hon. F. Oliver... Not printed. 

82. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, showing the 

total amount paid by this Government each year, during the past five years, towards 
mail subsidies to steamships; the names of the countries served, the names of steamers 
and contractors, and the steamship subventions. Presented 28th January, 1908. — Mr. 
Armstrong Printed for sessional papers. 

83. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, for a copy of 

the lease, conditions, &c, passed between the Government of Canada and a company 
for the use of the Beauharnois Canal. Presented 24th January, 1908.— Mr. Bergeron. 

Not printed. 

84. Copies of a letter and telegrams between the Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia 

and the Honourable the Secretary of State for Canada, on the subject of the disallow- 
ance of a Bill of the Legislature of British Columbia, intituled: "An Act to regulate 
immigration into British Columbia." Presented 24th January, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid 
Laurier Not printed. 

85. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 8th January, 1908, for a copy of all 

correspondence between the Department of Justice, or any department of the Govern- 
ment, and Mr. Frederick Fraser Forbes, now a district judge in the province of Sas- 
katchewan, or any other person or persons, in reference to the personal or professional 
6tatus or character of Mr. Forbes, or his appointment as a judge as above-mentioned, 
and of all writings and documents of any kind in reference to the foregoing matter. 
Presented 28th January, 1908.— Mr. Taylor Not printed. 

86. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated' 15th January, 1908, showing the 

number of applications made to the Board of Railway Commissioners for the privilege 
of crossing railway tracks with telephone and telegraph wires and with water mains 
each, over the said period from 1st February, 1904, to the 1st January, 1908; the total 
number of applications granted over said period; the total number of applications 
refused; the date of each application; the date each application was granted; the length 
of time from the application to the granting of same; and what time should elapse 
before the board should give its decision. Presented 27th January, 1908.— Mr. Barr. 

Not printed. 

87. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th December, 1907, showing, in 

respect of all grants of right to divert water and construct ditches made under the 
provisions of the Yukon Placer Mining Act, 1906, the number of the claim, name and 
address of the grantee, date of issue, length of term, source of water, quantity that may 
be diverted, estimated expenditure within one year, time limit for construction, sum 
paid for the privilege and the name and address of present holder, if rights have been 
transferred. Presented 30th January, 190S. — Mr. Boyce Not printed. 

88. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing the 

timber lands sold or leased by the Department of the Interior subsequent to the date 
of those included in Sessional Paper, No. 167a, brought down to the House on the 9th 
of April, 1907; the description and area of such lands, the applications made therefor, 
the notice of advertisement for sale or tender, the tenders received, the amount of 
each tender, the tenders accepted, the name of the person or company to whom each 
lot was sold or leased, and the name and address of each person or company to whom 
any of such leases have been transferred. Presented 30th January, 1908. — Mr. Ames. 

Not printed. 
20 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 190S 



CONTENTS OE VOLUME IS— Continued. 

88a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing, in 
respect of timber berth number 1279, all applications, correspondence, reports, adver- 
tisements, terders, leases, transfers, or memoranda of any description. Presented 3rd 
February, 190S. — Mr. Ames Xot printed. 

88b. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, showing, in 
respect of timber berths numbers 1031, 1118, 1097 and 1098, all bonuses, rentals, or dues, 
paid to date by the lessees or other assigns to the Government, together with a copy of 
all applications, correspondence, reports, advertisements, tenders, leases, transfers or 
memoranda of any description in connection therewith. Presented 18th February, 190s. 
— Mr. White Xot printed. 

88c. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated ISth December, 1907, showing, ui 
respect of timber berths numbers 1050, 1265, 1267, 1274 and 1275, all bonuses, rentals or 
dues paid to date by the lessees or other assigns to the Government, together with a 
copy of all applications, correspondence, reports, advertisements, tenders, leases, trans- 
fers or memoranda of any description in connection therewith. Presented 18th Febru 
ary, 1908.— Mr. Boyce Xot printed. 

88d. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th February, 1908, for the pro- 
duction of all the original applications and tenders filed in the Department of the 
Interior in respect of timber berths numbers 1050, 1265, 1267, 1274 and 1275, and that 
the names be laid upon the Table of the House, said papers not to be part of the 
archives of this House, but to be returned by the Clerk to the Department of the 
Interior after inspection. Presented 24th February, 1908. — Mr. Boyce Xot printed. 

88c. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th February, 190S, for the pro- 
duction of all the original applications and tenders filed in the Department of ^the 
Interior in respect of timber berths numbers 1031, 1118, 1119, 1097 and 1098, and that 
the same be laid upon the Table of the House, said papers not to be part of the archives 
of this House, but to be returned by the Clerk to the Department of the Interior after 
inspection. Presented 24th February, 1908. — Mr. White Xot printed. 

88/. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th February, 190S, for the pro- 
duction of all the original applications and tenders filed in the Department of the 
Interior in respect of timber berths numbers 1048, 1049, 1122 and 1168, and that the 
same be laid upon the Table of the House, said papers not to be part of the archives 
of this House, but to be returned by the Clerk to the Department of the Interior 
after inspection. Presented 24th February, 1908. — Mr. Boyce Xot printed. 

88g. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 10th February, 1908, that there be 
laid on the Table for inspection the original applications and tenders in respect of 
timber berths numbers 1220, 1226, 1238 and 1272, said papers not to be part of the 
archives of this House, but to be returned by the Clerk to the Department of the 
Interior after inspection. Presented 24th February, 1908.— _\Z>. Lake Xot printed. 

88!i. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, showing, in 
respect of timber berths numbers 104S, 1049, 1122 and 1168, all bonuses, rentals, or dues 
paid to date by the lessees or other assigns to the Government, together with a copy of 
all applications, correspondence, reports, advertisements, tenders, leases, transfers and 
memoranda of any description in connection therewith. Presented 9th March, 190S. — 
Mr. Boyce Xot printed 

88i. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, showing, in 
respect of all timber berths at present under license or authorized to be licensed within 
the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and the Northwest Territories, (a) 
number or designation of each berth; (b) number of license for 1907-8; (c) area of 
berth in square miles ; (d) name and address of present license holder ; (e) name and 
address of original applicant, with date of his application; (/) date of issue from Ottawa 
of advertisement; (g) date fixed therein for opening of tenders; (h) name and address of 

21 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 18— Continued. 

successful tenderer; (i) amount of bonus paid; (j) date when definite selection of blocks 
was completed and the returns of the survey filed with the Department of the Interior 
at Ottawa; (fc) amount of dues collected during the year ending the 30th of April, 1907. 
in respect of each berth for ground rent, stumpage royalty, and the cost of fire guard- 
ing, &c. ; also the amount, if any, unpaid and overdue at the termination of said year ; 
(I) whether license was issued according to order in council of April 14th, 1903, or of 
July 23rd, 1906; (hi) in case of berths upon which during the year 1906-7 no timber was 
cut, whether notification has been served on license holder to operate a saw-mill, and 
the date of such notice. Presented 11th March, 1908.— Mr. McCarthy (Calgary) 

Not printed. 

88j. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, bringing the 
information as contained in Sessional Paper No. 167b, brought down April 26th, 1907, 
up to date. Presented 13th March, 1908.— Mr. Ames Xot printed. 

88k. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 3rd February, 1908, for a copy of 
all letters, correspondence, applications, advertisements, reports, memoranda, valua- 
tions, estimates, tenders, transfers, or other writings or papers in respect of or in con- 
nection with timber berths numbers 1413, 1414 and 1415. Presented 16th March, 1908.— 
Mr. Lennox Not printed. 

881. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 1908, for a copy of 
all applications to homestead or purchase, reports, agreements of lease or sale, corres- 
pondence exchanged between the Department of the Interior and any person whatso- 
ever, and papers of every description dealing with or treating of the sale or lease of 
surface, mining, timber, or any other rights in respect of the n.w. J of section 8, town- 
ship 53, range 4. west of the 5th M. Presented 19th March, 1908.— Mr. Ames. 

Not printed. 

88m. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, showing, in 
respect of timber berths numbers 1220 to 1226, 1238 and 1272, all bonuses, rentals or 
dues paid to date by the lessees or other assigns to the Government, together with a 
copy of all applications, correspondence, reports, advertisements, tenders, leases, trans- 
fers or memoranda of any description in connection therewith. Presented 24th March, 
1908.— Mr. Lake Not printed. 

88/i. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 9th March, 1908, for a copy of 
applications, recommendations of applications, and replies thereto, instructions, regard- 
ing advertising, and a copy of all tenders and replies thereo, for timber berths numbers 
652, 657, 677, 679, 681, 683, 684, 721, 722, 730 and 743. Presented 30th March, 1908.— Mr. 
McCraney Not printed. 

88(.. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 2nd March, 1908, for the production 
of all the original applications and tenders filed in the Department of the Interior in 
respect of timber berths 1046, 1047, 1052, 1058, 1068, 1070, 1093, 1094, 1099, 1191, 1192 and 
that the same be laid upon the Table of the House, said papers not to be part of the 
archives of this House, but to be returned by the Clerk to the Department of the 
Interior after inspection. Presented 13th April, 1908. — Mr. Ames Not printed. 

88p. Return to an Address of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 1908, for a copy 
of all orders in council, letters, telegrams, reports, recommendations, tenders or com- 
munications of any kind in relation to the granting of sixteen townships and certain 
timber limits in the Peace River region, as referred to in a motion of the 15th January, 
ult., reference 102, not already brought down. Presented 13th April, 1908.— Mr. Hughes 

(Victoria and Haliburton) Not printed. 

22 



1 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLTJME 18— Continued. 

SSq. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 1908, showing the 
total sum (money or scrip) that the Government has received on account of the lands, 
mines, minerals, timber &c, in the various Dominion lands offices in the provinces of 
Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, distinguishing between each province, during the 
following periods: from 1st July, 1896, to 30th June, 1905, and from 1st July, 1905, to 
31st December, 1907. Presented 21st April, 1908.— Mr. Lake Not printed. 

88r. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 19th February, 1908, showing all 
sales of Dominion lands other than coal lands, of 160 acres and upwards, in the pro- 
vinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, which have been made by the Govern- 
ment dviring the calendar year 1907; the prices obtained; names of purchasers; dates 
of sales; and in general terms, the grounds upon which sales were authorized. Pre- 
sented 21st April, 1908.— Mr. Lake Not printed. 

88s. Return to an order of the House of Commons dated 17th February, 1908, showing: 1. How 
many applications for timber licenses were received by the Government of Mr. Mackenzie, 
what area in square miles they covered, how many licenses were issued, what area they 
covered, and under how many of those licenses operations were actually carired on, and 
what area these included. 2. How many applications for timber licenses were received 
by the Government from November 1st, 1878, to July 1st, 1896, and what area in square 
miles they covered, how many licenses were issued, and what area they covered, under 
how many of these licenses operations were actually carried on, and what area they 
covered. 3. How many permits to cut lumber were given to applicants as above in 
leases where licenses had not issued during each of these periods. Presented 21st April, 
1908.— Mr. Foster Not printed 

88t. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 1908, showing a list 
of timber berths awarded between 1st June, 1904, and 15th July, 1906, with the number 
of tenders in each case, the amount of each tender, the name of the successful tenderer, 
the area of each berth, the dates of notice and opening of the tenders in each case. Pre- 
sented 22nd April, 1908.— Mr. Crawford Not printed. 

88u. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, showing what coal 
lands were granted to sundry persons through the agency of P. E. Lessard, of Edmon- 
ton, together with copies of all letters, papers and documents relating to the applica- 
tion, sale, lease or cancellation of the same. All from the general file for the group of 
claims, and not the special file for each section. Presented 7th May, 1908. — Mr. Ames. 

Not printed. 

88r. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 23rd March, 1908, showing what 
coal areas are held by F. E. Keniston, of Minneapolis; said return to include a copy 
of all letters, documents and correspondence relating to the application, sale, lease or 
cancellation of the same, from the general file for each group of claims, and not the 
special file of each section. Presented 7th May, 1908. — Mr. Ames Not printed. 

88 w. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, showing what 
coal lands are now or have been at any time owned, controlled, leased or operated in 
townships 53 and 54, range 7, west of the 5th meridian, by the Alberta Development 
Company (Limited), together with a copy of all applications, correspondence, deeds 
of sale and other documents in connection therewith. Presented 12th May, 1908.— 
Mr. Ames .Not printed. 

88j. Return to an order of the Ho\ise of Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, showing what 
coal lands in townships 9 and 10, ranges 21, 22 and 23, west of the 4th meridian, were 
granted through the agency of J. W. Bettes (or his firm), of Winnipeg, Manitoba, 
together with a copy of all letters, documents and papers relating to the application, 
sale, lease or cancellation of the same. All from the general file for the group of claims, 
and not the special file for each section. Presented 18th May, 190S. — Mr. Arnes. 

Not printed. 

23 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers: A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME IS— Continued. 

88y. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 2nd March, 1908, for the production 
of all original tenders filed in the Department of the Interior in respect of timber 
limits numbers 645, 646, 675, 703, 705 and 733 to 737, and that the same be laid upon 
the table of the House, said papers not to be part of the archives of this House, but to 
be returned by the clerk to the Department of the Interior after inspection. Presented 
20th May, 1908.— Mr. McCraney Not printed. 

88z. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 23rd March, 1908, showing what 
coal areas were obtained through the agency of Malcolm McKenzie on behalf of clients; 
and a copy of all letters, documents and correspondence relating to the application, sale, 
lease or cancellation of the same; also the same information in regard to J. H. Moss, of 
Toronto. All from the general file for each group of claims, and not the special file for 
each section. Presented 27th May, 1908. — Mr. Ames Not printed. 

88aa. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 1908, for a copy 
of all applications, leases, assignments, correspondence, and papers, of every description 
in connection with or referring to the granting or sale of the mining rights in sections 
17, 20, 21, 28, 29, 32 and 33, of township 8, range 4, west of the 5th meridian. Presented 
27th May, 1908.— Mr. Perley Not printed. 

88bb. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, showing what 
coal lands in townships 41 and 42, ranges 17 and 18, west of the 5th meridian, were 
granted through the agency of McGiverin & Hayden, Ottawa, together with a copy of 
all letters, documents and papers relating to the application, sale, lease or cancellation 
of same. All from the general file for the group of claims, and not the special file for 
each section. Presented 27th May, 1908. — Mr. Ames Not printed. 

89. Return to an Address of the House of Commons, dated 20th January, 1908, for a copy of 

all papers and correspondence between the government of Canada and the government 
of the province of British Columbia, relating to the application of the Grand Trunk 
Pacific Railway Company to acquire a portion of the Metlakatla Indian Reserve, British 
Columbia, and to the general question of the claim of said province to the Indian 
reserves therein, since the date of said application. Presented 30th January, 1908. — 
Mr. Ross (Yale-Cariboo) Not printed. 

90. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 15th January, 1908, for a copy of all 

correspondence, reports, locations, records of payments made on, payments returned, 
homestead entries, cancellations thereof; of any order, direction or other authority 
given to any homesteader or person who had entered for homestead to re-enter after 
concellation of entry or default thereunder ; any evidence of sale by Peter Luensen to 
Frederick Heintz, and any correspondence, affidavits, memoranda, or otlier documents 
by the department, or any of its officers, with W. L. MacKenzie, Peter Luenson, 
Frederick Heintz, Alexander K. Thom, Wm. R. Gardner, Thomas J. Oliver, or any 
other person in regard to the n.e. i sec. 32, township 36, r. 16, west of 2nd m., Saskat- 
chewan. Presented 30th January, 1908. — Mr. Porter Not printed. 

90a. Supplementary return to No. 90. Presented 1st April, 1908 Not printed. 

90b. Return to order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, showing: 1. Any Gov- 
ernment lands near New Westminster, British Columbia, sold to one J. W, Patterson, 
and, if sold, by what department of the Government. 2. Whether they were Indian or 
military reserve lands, or either of them. 3. The prices Mr. Patterson paid for said 
lands, if any were sold to him. 4. The date of such sale or sales. Presented 27th April, 
1908.— Mr. Reid (Grenville) , ..Not printed. 

90c. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th March, 1908. showing all lands 
acquired from the Government by the Grand Trunk Pacific Town and Development 

24 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1903 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME IS— Continued. 

Company, together with the area, location, purchase price of each tract, and a copy of 
all correspondence between the Government and the company or any individuals inter- 
ested therein or connected therewith, as to the general terms and conditions under' 
which the Government land should be granted to the said company. Presented 27th 
April, 1908. — Mr. Ames Xot printed. 

90d. Keturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 30th March, 1908, showing all the 
lands granted to the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company under their contract of May, 
1902, specifying those which are patented as well as those unpatented, to date. Pre- 
sented 30th April, 1908.— Mr. Boche (Marquette) Xot printed. 

90e. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 1908, showing the 
approximate total area of Dominion lands disposed of by the Government in each of 
the provinces of Manitoba, Alberta and Saskatchewan, between the 1st July, 1896, and 
the 30th June, 1903, distinguishing between lands for agricultural purposes, glazing, 
irrigation, timber and coal; and also from the 1st July, 1905, to the 31st December, 
1907. Presented 7th May, 190S.— Mr. La ke Xot printed. 

91. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 22nd January, 1908, showing the 

names and number of establishments being operated under the law and legulations of 
the "Meat and Food Inspection Act"; when they were individually put under the 
operation of the Act ; and the names and number of inspectors for each establishment, 
presented 30th January, 1908. — Mr. Hughes (Victoria and Haliburton) Xot printed. 

92. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 15th January, 1908, for a copy of 

all papers, correspondence, tenders and contracts, in connection with building piers at 
Port Maitland, Ontario. Presented 30th January, 1908.— Mr. Lalor Xot printed. 

92a. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 3rd February, 1908, for a copy of 
all correspondence, contracts, telegrams, reports, plans and specifications, together with 
all other information not already brought down, in possession of the Government, 
relating to the construction of piers or docks already constructed or under construction 
at the following places: Bayfield, Huron county, Ontario; Grand Bend, county of 
Huron, Ontario; St. Joseph, county of Huron, Ontario; together with a statement of 
ail moneys expended, and to whom paid, and the date of payment, and nature of the 
work done or material used. Presented 7th May. 190S. — Mr. Armstrong Xot printed. 

92b. Supplementary return to No. 92a. Presented 11th May, 1908 Xot printed. 

93. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, showing the 

total amount of bounties paid by the Government since 1896, and the amount for each 
year on each article. Presented 30th January, 1908. — Mr. Clements. 

Printed for sessional papers. 

94. Eeturn to an address of the Senate, dated 19th February, 1907, for a statement showing 

the names, christian names, age, and country of origin of all the persons who, coming 
from the British Isles, from English colonies or from foreign lands, as strangers 
to Canada, have been placed, whether by order in council, by decision of the Militia 
Council, or otherwise, in any branch whatsoever of the military service of Canada, in 
the permanent force or in the volunteer force, together with the date of each of these 
appointments, the nature of the employment, the rank of the holder (before and after 
Ms appointment), and the yearly amount which he receives for his services. Presented 
22nd January, 1908.— Hon. Mr. Landry Printed for sessional papers. 

95. Eeturn of reductions and remissions made under Eevised Statutes of Canada, chapter 81, 

section 88, ss. 2. Presented (Senate) 22nd January, 1908, by Hon. Mr. Scott. Xot printed. 

25 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 18— Continued. 

96. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 17th December, 1906, for a copy 

of all orders in council, advertisements for tenders, tenders, specifications of every 
kind, plans, drawings, reports, letters, telegrams, correspondence, contracts, agreements 
and other documents and papers of every kind, touching or relating to any works at 
or near St. Andrews Rapids, in the province of Manitoba, and especially such documents 
as aforesaid in connection with any tender or contract by or on behalf of Charles 
Whitehead, or Kelly Brothers, or any subsequent tenderers or contractors. Presented 
29th January, 1908.— Mr. Borden (Carleton) Not printed. 

97. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, for a copy of all 

papers, correspondence, and evidence, in respect of the trial for criminal conspiracy 
against certain persons in the Yukon in connection with the Dominion elections of 1904. 
Presented 3rd February, 1908.— Mr. Foster Not printed. 

98. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, for a copy of all 

correspondence between Major E. S. Wigle, of Windsor, Honourable R. F. Sutherland, 
A. H. Clarke, and the Minister of Inland Revenue, respecting the extension of the 
franchise of the Windsor, Detroit and Belle Isle Ferry Company. Presented 3rd 
February, 1908.— Mr. Clements Not printed. 

99. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 29th January, 1908, for a copy of all 

correspondence, telegrams, or reports, respecting the refusal of the lieutenant governor 
of British Columbia to give his assent to a bill passed by the legislature of that province 
in 1907, respecting immigration and commonly referred to as the Natal Act. Presented 
3rd February, 1908.— Mr. Smith (Nanaimo) Printed for sessional papers. 

100. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy 
of all papers and correspondence between the government of Canada and any of its 
ministers with reference to the establishment of a fast line of steamship communication 
between Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand and Canadian ports. Presented 
3rd February, 1908.— Mr. Foster Not printed. 

101. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy 
of all correspondence, enclosed clippings, agreements, statements, &c, between the gov- 
ernn:»?nt or any member thereof, and especially the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, 
the Minister of Railways, the Minister of Agriculture, the Minister of Militia, and Sir 
Wilfrid Laurier, and one F. E. Williams, of St. John, New Brunswick; one W. H. 
Trueman, of St. John, and any other person or persons whatsoever in relation to the 
establishment of a bait freezer and cold storage established in St. John, New Brunswick. 
Presented 5th February. 1908.— Mr. Foster Not printed. 

102. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing the 
expenditure by the Dominion Government on (a)wharfs; (b) harbours and river 
improvements; (c) dredging; (d) public buildings; for each year since 1896, in the 
counties of Digby, Yarmouth, Shelburne, Queen's, Lunenburg and Pictou, Nova Scotia, 
specifying the works by name, with amounts expended thereon. Presented 6th February, 
1908.— Mr. Foster Not printed. 

103. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 20th January, 1908, for a copy of 
letters, telegrams, and reports, regarding complaints made by John Franklin and 
Stapieton Brothers, with respect to Indian Agent Yeomans. Presented 6th February, 
1908.— Mr. Foster , Not printed. 

104. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 20th January, 1908, showing the 
amount paid each year for provisions for the Royal Military College, for the Halifax 
Garrison, and the Permanent Military School in Quebec, the average number of men 
provisioned each year of the above institutions, and cost per man per day. Presented 
10th February, 1908.— Mr. Foster Not printed. 

26 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 18— Continued. 

105. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing the 
number of fishing licenses issued by the Government for any of the lakes in the pro- 
vince of Saskatchewan, to whom issued, and on what lakes. Presented 10th February, 
1908.— Mr. Chisholm (East Huron) Not printed. 

106. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 15th January, 1908, showing what 
lands have been sold, leased, given as homesteads, transferred or set apart in any way 
by the Government to each : individuals, companies, syndicates, or other organizations 
in the Peace River Valley, or along or near tributaries thereof, in the Northwest of 
Canada; when each area was allotted; the terms between the Government and the 
various parties or organizations concerned; what prices per acre were realized from 
these transactions; with whom the Government conducted negotiations in each case; 
the regulations governing the securing of land in the Peace River Valley; and how far 
it is from Edmonton to Dunvegan. Presented 11th February, 190^. — Mr. Hughes (Vic- 
toria and Halihurton) Not printed. 

107. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 22nd January, 190S, for a copy 
of all orders in council, reports, memoranda, correspondence, documents, plans, tenders 
and advertisements of every kind, nature and description, relating to the proposed 
acquisition under lease of certain car work shops with railway sidings at Moncton, 
New Brunswick. Presented 12th February, 1908. — Mr. Barker Not printed. 

108. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th December, 1907, showing all 
coal lands leased, sold or otherwise disposed of from the 1st of March, 1907, to date, 
giving the area disposed of, the party to whom, the consideration therefor, the assign- 
ments made, if any, the date thereof, and the name of the assignee in each case. 
Presented 13th February, 1908. — Mr. Ames Not printed. 

108a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 190S, showing, in 
respect of each of the undermentioned blocks disposed of as coal lands by the Govern- 
ment, viz.: Section 13, of township 9, range 4, west of the 5th m.; section 16, township 10, 
range 3, west of the 5th m., section 15, township 11, range 4, west of the 5th m. ; section 
20, township 12, range 4, west of the 5th m.; section 5, township 13, range 4, west of the 
5th m.j section 21, township 19, range 7, west of the 5th m. ; when and by whom t!ie first 
application was made for right to acquire; when and to whom the original grant of 
mining rights was made; what transfers of rights have been recorded, the date of 
transfer, and date of registration of same; who the present owner or occupant is, as 
known to the department ; and the name and address of each company or person above 
referred to. Presented 16th March, 1908. — Mr. Ames Not printed. 

108b. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 2nd March, 1908, for a copy of 
(a) an order in council of the 19th May, 1902, and the regulations therein referred to and 
approved for the disposal of coal lands, the property of the Dominion Government, in 
Manitoba, the Northwest Territories and British Columbia. (b)A copy of ail orders in 
council altering, amending or cancelling any such regulations for the aforesaid pur- 
poses, and the said amended or other regulations. (c)A copy of all orders in council 
approving, amending or cancelling regulations as regards the Yukon for the purposes 
aforesaid, and 'he said regulations and amended regulations. Presented 24th March, 
1908.— Mr. Barker Nat printed. 

108c. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 1908, showing, in 
respect of each of the undermentioned blocks disposed of as coal lands by the Govern- 
ment, viz.: sections 2, 4, 9, 15, 17, and 28, of township 7, range 3, west of the 5th m., 
when and by whom the first application was made for right to acquire; when and to 
whom the original grant of mining rights was made; what transfers of rights have 
been recorded, when such transfers were dated, and when registered with the depart- 
ment; who the present owner or occupant is, as known to the department; and the name 
and address of each company or person above referred to. Presented 24th March, 1908.— 

My. Ames Not printed. 

" 27 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OE VOLUME 18— Continued. 

lOSd. Keturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 1908, for a copy 
of all inquiries, applications, leases, contracts, agreements, assignments, correspon- 
dence and papers of every description, in connection with or referring to the granting 
of coal mining privileges in section 11, township 8, range 4, west of the 5th meridian. 
Presented 27th March, 1908.— Mr. Ames Not printed. 

108c. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th March, 1908, showing: 

1. What leases for coal lands in the Northwest Territories were granted by the Govern- 
ment in the years 1903 and 1904. 2. To whom, and on what dates the same were granted, 
and the amounts paid therefor. 3. "Whether the person to whom the lease was granted 
was the original applicant. 4. Whether any assignment of such leases has been made, 
when, and to whom. 5. Who the present holders are of said leases. Presented 1st 
April, 1908.— Mr. Boyce Not printed. 

108/. Supplementary return to lOSe. Presented 6th April, 1908 Not printed. 

108,;. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th December, 1907, for a copy 
of all applications, reports, correspondence, leases, contracts, deeds, sale and documents 
of every description in connection with the purchase of coal mining lands either on 
their own behalf or on behalf of clients, by the firm of Hough, Campbell & Ferguson, 
or by any individual member of said firm, together with a copy of the regulations 
governing the sale of such rights at the time of purchose. Presented 30th April, 1908 — 
Mr. Ucrron Not printed. 

108/i Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 19th February, 190S, setting forth 
in respect of the following coal lands: 1. The name and address of the first applicant 
and the date thereof. 2. The names and addresses of all subsequent applications, with 
date thereof, in the order of application. 3. The name and address of the party to 
whom the mining rights were granted, with date of sale of lease by the Government. 
4. Price paid per acre, sale or lease. 5. Date and amount of first payment on account 
of purchase price. 6. Dates and amounts of each subsequent payment on account of 
purchase price. 7. Total amount paid as purchase price and balance, if any, still un- 
paid. 8. How long reservation was made by the department in favour of the grantee 
or his assigns. 9. The name and address of all parties to whom assignments were 
made, with date of each assignment, and date of its registration with the department. 
10. The name and address of present owner of said mining rights. 11. A copy of all 
correspondence in reference to the same : Township 7, range 3, west of 5th m. ; sections 1, 

2, 3, 4, 5, 6, less the s.e. J; section 7, less e. i; section 8; section 9; section 10, less s.w. \; 
section 11, less s.e. \; section 14, less e. J; section 15; section 16, less n.e. \; section 17; 
section 20, less e. i of n.e. \; section 21, less s. * and n.w. \; section 22; section 28; 
section 27, less e. |; section 32, less e. \; section 33; section 34, less e. }. Township 7, 
range 2, west of 5th m. ; section 18, 20 and 21 Township 6, range 3, west of 5th m. ; 
sections 27 and 28; section 32, less w. i; sections 33 and 34. Presented 22nd April, 1908 — 
Mr. Ames Not printed. 

109. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 22nd January, 1908, showing on 
what dates since June 30th, 1906, advances were made on account of travelling expenses 
to Honourable L. P. Brodeur, to Mr. Wiallard, his private secretary, and to Napoleon 
Potvin, his messenger, respectively, for what amounts, and to what accounts they were 
severally charged; also what refunds, if any, have been made on any of these several 
advances, and on what, dates. Presented 14th February, 1908.— Mr. Foster.. Not printed. 

109a. Eeturn showing all advances to Ministers of the Crown and their private secretaries, 
on account of travelling or other expenses in connection with the Imperial Conference 
of 1907, the date of such advances, and the appropriation against which it was charged. 
Presented 2nd March, 1908.— Mr. Foster Not printed. 

28 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 18— Continued. 

109b. Return (as far as the Department of Inland Revenue is concerned), to an order of 
the House of Commons, dated 22nd January, 1908, showing the advances made each year 
since July 1, 1904, to December 31, 1907, on account of travelling expenses to Honourable 
L. P. Brodeur and his private secretary and messengers, the date and amount of each 
advance, and the appropriation to which it was charged, the dates at which each 
advance was finally accounted for, and the dates on which any repayments were made to 
the treasury, and the amount of such repayments, and all correspondence with the 
Auditor General's Department in connection therewith. Presented 2nd March, 1908. — 
Mr. Foster Not printed. 

110. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 8th January, 1908, showing the 
total quantity of freight carried on the winter steamers between Prince Edward Island 
and the mainland during the past two seasons, 1905-6 and 1906-7; the amount of fi eight 
that was delayed in transit for those two seasons; the freight rate on the different 
classes of goods carried; the amount received for freight during those two seasons; the 
amount received for passengers and the number carried; the number of days the 
steamers failed to cross in each of those years; and the amount of damages paid to 
shippers for delay of goods in transit. Presented 14th February, 1908. — Mr. Martin 
(Queen't) Not printed. 

110a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 20th January, 1908, for a copy of 
all correspondence, telegrams, &c, in the possession of the Government or any member 
or official thereof, respecting the withdrawal of thf winter steamers from Charlottetown 
on or about the 8th January, instant, and their replacement some days later. Presented 
1-lth February, 1908.— Mr. Martin (Queen's) Not printed. 

111. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 3rd February, 1908, for a copy of 
all correspondence, reports and papers, respecting the salary, expenses, duties and 
annual period of employment of W. Maxwell Smith, Dominion fruit inspector in.British 
Columbia; also full details of his expenses during the years 1906 and 1907, respectively. 
1908. — Mr. Jackson (Elgin) Printed for sessional papers. 

112. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, for a copy of 
pedigreed cattle, if any, did the Central Experimental Farm, Ottawa, sell during the 
years 1906 and 1907; and how many in each year, giving the different breeds, the name 
of purchaser, his place of residence, price paid, and breed. Presented 14th February, 
1908. — Mr. Jackson (Elgin) Printed for sessional papers. 

113. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, for a copy of 
all papers, accounts and correspondence, in connection with the seizure of the M. J. 
Wilson Cordage Company, of the city of Chatham, Ontario, by the Dominion Govern- 
ment, in the year 1904. Presented 17th February, 1908.— Mr. Clements.. ..Not printed. 

114. Return to an order of the Senate, dated 31st January, 1908, showing the appointments 
made to the Senate from confederation, with date of appointment and date when the 
appointees ceased to be senators. Presented 11th Fbruary, 1908.— Hon. Mr. Wilson. 

Printed for distribution. 

115. Return to an address of the Senate, dated 29th January, 1908, showing the number of 
persons killed and of those otherwise injured, separately, at railway crossings during 
the last three years, giving the number in each year separately; giving also for each 
year the number of persons thus killed or otherwise injured in thickly populated 
places separately from those killed or otherwise injured in the rural distiicts, showing 
also the number of such accidents at protected crossings separately from unprotected 
crossings. Presented 11th February, 1908.— Hon. Mr. Beique Not printed. 

116. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy 
of all communications, reports, correspondence, or other papers, between the Depirt- 

29 



Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 18— Continued. 

meiit of the Interior and any of its officials, and A. Samovici, H. Bolocan, and any other 
person or persons in regard to the n.w. \ section 20, township 22, range 13, west 2nd m., 
including applications for cancellation, protections, homesteads, inspectors' reports, &c. 
Presented 18th February, 1908.— 3/ r. La he Not printed. 

117. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy of 
all correspondence between the Departments of the Marine and Fisheries and Justice 
of Canada and the Attorney General of Nova Scotia, or any official acting under his 
authority, in connection with the suit in the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia of the King 
by Dr. Tail, of Cheticamp, in the county of Inverness, Nova Scotia, versus William 
Ancoin. Presented ISth February, 1908. — Mr. McLennan Not printed. 

118. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, for a copy of 
all contract? for food for men at the volunteer camps throughout Canada for the season 
of 1907; also for the regular troops at Halifax, Quebec and other places. Presented 
18th February, 190S.— Mr. Smith (Wentirorth) Not printed. 

119. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 3rd February, 1908, for a copy of 
all correspondence between the Railway Commission and the Department of Railways and 
Cauals, or the Intercolonial Railway, and between the Railway Commission and the 
Canadian Pacific Railway, and the Grand Trunk Railway, and between the Railway 
Commission and the Fredericton Board of Trade, in reference to the alleged discrimina- 
tion against the city of Fredericton in the matter of freight rates; and alr-o for a copy 
of all other papers and documents on file with the Railway Commission in relation 
thereto. Presented 19th February, 1908. — !/>. Crocket Not printed. 

120. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th December, 1907, for a copy of 
all offers, reports, valuations, plans, deeds of purchase, correspondence and other papers 
of every description in connection with the purchase of site for the new Montreal 
examining warehouse, together with a statement of all expenditure and all indebtedness 
incurred to date in this connection. Presented 19th February, 1908.— Mr. Ames. 

Not printed. 

121. Return to an order of the Senate, dated the 30th January, 1908, showing: 1. Title of 
each Bill by years sent by the Senate to the House of Commons, from 1867 to 1907, 
inclusive, that was (a) amended by the Hous of Commons, or (b) rejected. 2. Title of 
each Bill by years sent up by the House of Commons to the Senate, from 1867 to 1907, 
inclusive, that was (a) amended by the Senate, or (b) rejected. 3. The total number of 
Bills for each year as above to be tabulated in four periods, (a) 1867 to 1873, inclusive; 
(b) 1S74 to 1878, inclusive; (c) 1879 to 1896, first session, inclusive; (d) 1896 to 1907, inclu- 
sive. Presented 19th February, 1908. — Hon. Mr. Ross (Middlesex) Not printed. 

122. Report of the commissioners appointed to inquire into a dispute between the Bell 
Telephone Company of Canada (Limited) and the operators of the said company at 
Toronto, with respect to wages and hours of employment, etc. Also copy of evidence 
taken under Royal Commission in the dispute between the Bell Telephone Company of 
Canada and its operators, in February, 1907. Presented 24th February, and 11th March, 
1908, by Hon. R. Lemieux Not printed. 

123. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 17th February, 1908, for a copy of 
the contract and all correspondence relating to a payment of $3,900 to the Midland 
Towing and Wrecking Company, as set out at page P — 32 of the Auditor General's 
Report for 1906-7, and of the advertisement calling for tenders. Presented 10th March, 
1908.— Mr. Bennett Not printed. 

124. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, showing what 
sums have been expended or voted for the dredging of the Riviere a la Graisse, aft 
Rigaud; to whom the contracts were given; and what sums have been voted or paid out 
for dredging Dorion Bay, Vaudreuil station. Presented 24th February, 190S. — Mr. 
Bergeron Not printed. 

30 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OP VOLUME 18— Continued. 

124a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated ISth December, 1907, showing what 
sums have been voted or expended for the dredging of the river bottom between Charle- 
magne and Terrebonne; since when the dredging has been going on there; what sums 
have been voted or expended for wharfs at Terrebonne and at St. Francois de Sales; 
and who obtained the contracts. Presented 24th February, 1908. — Mr. Bergeron. 

Xot printed. 

124b. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing: 
1. What harbours or rivers in the province of Ontario were tenders invited for dredging 
work by the Department of Public Works during the present year. 2. The names of 
the successful tenderers at each of the said places for which dredging tenders were 
invited in Ontario in 1907, and the prices asked by each party respectively. 3. Amounts 
of the tenders respectively of the different persons tendering at each of the foregoing 
points. 4. Also at what points new tenders were invited, and when the first tenders were 
accepted. Presented 9th June, 1908.— Mr. Bennett Xot printed. 

124c. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th of April, 1908, for a copy of 
all the correspondence exchanged between the Government and Messrs. T. B. Mongenais, 
Hugh McMillan and others, relating to dredging work done in the River Rigaud, 
formerly the River Graisse, up to the year 1890. A copy of the reports and corres- 
pondence relating to the construction or purchase of the Graham wharf. A copy of the; 
report and correspondence relating to the dredging done at Como up to 1900. A copy 
of the reports and correspondence relating to the dredging done at Vaudreuil Village, 
and also those relating to the construction and repair of the wharf situated in that 
village since 1867. And also a copy of the report and correspondence relating to the 
deepening of the River St. Louis at Beauharnois. Presented 30th Jure, 1908.--Mr. 
Boyer Xot printed. 

125. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 3rd February, 190S, for a copy of 
all correspondence, telegrams, engineer's reports, &c, in the hands of the Government 
or any member or official thereof, respecting proposed repairs to the wharf at Little 
Sands, in Prince Edward Island. Presented 25th February, 1908. — Mr. Martin (Queen's). 

Xot printed. 

126. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th February, 1908, for a copy of 
the report made by John Fraser, of the Auditor GeneraFs Department, on the 7th 
January, 189S, of a special examination held by him of the financial affairs of the 
Montreal Turnpike Trust. Presented 10th March, 1908.— Mr. Monk Not printed. 

126a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 22nd January, 1908, showing: 
1. The present indebtedness to the Dominion Government of the Montreal Turnpike 
Trust (a) on capital account, (b) for arrears of interest. 2. The amounts collected at 
each toll gate belonging to the said Turnpike Trust during the three years ending 31st 
December, 1905, 1906, 1907, respectively. 3. The names of all parties who have com- 
muted their tolls during each of the above-mentioned years, 1905, 1906, 1907, and the 
amount of the commutation money paid to the Trust in each case. 4. The amounts 
expended on each section or road division, under the control of the said Trust, during 
each of the said years, ending 31st December, 1905, 1906, and 1907, respectively, and the 
contracts given out during each of the said years, with the name of the contractor and 
the date and amount involved in each case; and a statement in each case also as to 
whether the contract was awarded after tender called through the newspapers. 5. The 
amount paid out during each of the said three years, 1905, 1906, 1907, at each toll gate 
for salaries of day and night guardians, and any other expenditure at each of the toll 
gates maintained. 6. The names of all parties holding passes for free use of the roads 
under control of said Trust, during each of the said three years above referred to, 
. 1905, 1906, 1907, with a statement in each case of the reason why the pass was so granted. 
7. The expense of the said Trust during each of the said years, for rent, salaries of the 

31 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME IB— Continued. 

office, inside or outside service, giving name and remuneration of each official. 8. The 
actual present indebtedness in detail of the said Trust outside of its bonds due to the 
Government of Canada. 9. The amounts collected, by said Trust, year by year, since 
the 1st February, 1905, from municipalities under special agreements made as to their 
share pro rata of the bonded indebtedness of the Turnpike Trust. 10. The names of all 
those members of the Trust appointed or elected to represent the bondholders since 
the 1st July, 1896, with the date of the election in each case. 11. The amounts paid by 
the Trust to any of its members or officials during each of the said three years, 1905, 
1906, 1907, whether as travelling or personal expenses, or indemnity for attendance or 
for any other reason whatever. 12. The name of the auditor of the Trust, and the 
date of the audit made of the company's affairs, in each of the said three years, 1905, 

1906, 1907, respectively. 13. A copy of the agreements between the Trust and any muni- 
cipalities on the Island of Montreal, by which the Trust ceded to said municipalities 
any portion of its roads, said copy to be certified by the president and secretary of saio. 
Trust. Presented 20th March, 1908.— Mr. Monk Not printed. 

127. Return to an address of the Senate, dated 24th January, 1908, for a copy of the different 
tariffs in force upon the Intercolonial Railway, in 1896-7 and 1906-7, between Quebec 
and St. Flavie, and all intermediate stations between those two points, for the carriage 
of passengers or of goods, under the operation of the winter-tariff and under that of 
the summer-tariff. Presented 24th February, 1908. — Hon. Mr. Landry.. ..Not printed. 

128. Statement of the affairs of the British Canadian Loan and Investment Company, 
Limited, for the year ended the 31st of December, 1907. Presented 25th February, 
1908, by the Hon. The Speaker Not printed. 

129. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 19th February, 1908, showing how 
much money has been paid since 1896 to the Eclipse Manufacturing Company of 
Ottawa; how much each year; and the general character of the supplies furnished. 
Presented 27th February, 1908. — Mr. Blain Not printed. 

130. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 10th February, 1908, for a copy 
of all correspondence between Mr. A. E. Dyaient, M.P., and the Department of Marine 
and Fisheries as to granting of pound net licenses in 1905 to Messrs. Low & Roque, of 
Killarney, as also to any other persons; also a list of persons to whom pound net 
licenses were granted in that year. Presented 27th February, 1908. — Mr. Bennett. 

Not printed. 

131. Return to an ox % der of the House of Commons, dated 12th December, 1907, showing: 
1. The number of disputes dealt with under the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act, 

1907, to the 1st of December, 1907. 2. The dates at which the several applications for 
the operation of the Act have been received. 3. Names of the parties concerned in the 
several disputes. 4. Name of the party making application. 5. Locality of dispute. 
6. Number of persons affected. 7. Nature of dispute. 8. Names of members of board 
of conciliation and investigation where same has been established. 9. Date on w T hich 
board was established. 10. Date of sittings of board. 11. Result of the reference of 
the dispute under Act. Presented 27th February, 1908. — Mr. Smith (Nanaimo). 

, Not printed. 

132. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th February, 1908, for a copy of 
correspondence, plans, and other data in connection with the flooding of roads above 
the dam at Wilberforce, in Haliburton County, and the proposals, if any, for improving 
said roads and the bridge so as to prevent obstruction of traffic. . Presented 27th Feb- 
ruary, 1908.— Mr. Hughes (Victoria and Haliburton) Not printed. 

133. Return to an order of the House. of Commons, dated 17th February, 1908, for a copy of 
reports, plans, surveys, and other data, in connection with the proposal to construct a 
branch canal from Balsam Lake, on the Trent Canal, to the head of Gull River waters, 
in Haliburton County. Presented 27th February, 1908.— Mr. Hughes (Victoria and 
Haliburton) Not printed. 

32 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 18— Continued. 

134. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy of 
all correspondence received by the Department of Agriculture in connection with the 
inspection of meats and the regulations in connection with the Inspection of Meats and 
Canned Foods Bill. Presented 27th February, 1908. — Mr. Clements Not printed. 

134a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 9th March, 1908, for a copy of all 
correspondence, telegrams, reports and recommendations in possession of the Govern- 
ment, with respect to the inspection of packing houses, or the Meat Inspection Act, 
including the appointment of inspectors. Presented 25th March, 1908. — Mr. Armstrong. 

Not printed. 

135. Return to an order of the Senate, dated 26th February, 1908, for a detailed statement 
of the expenses incurred during the past three years, in connection with the synoptical 
reports of the debates of the Senate, furnished by the special reporter of that House, 
as well as a statement of the nature and particulars of the agreement with the present 
reporter. Presented 27th February, 1908. — Hon. Mr. Wilson Not printed. 

136. Return to an address of the Senate dated 11th February, 1908, showing the amount of 
imports of oxide of aluminum during the years 1S03, 1904, 1905, 1906 and 1907, with the 
values of such imports for each one of said years separately. Presented 28th February, 
1908.— Hon. Mr. Ellis Not printed. 

136a. Return to an address of the Senate, dated the 11th February, 1908, showing the 
amount of aluminum exported during the years 1903, 1904, 1905, 1906 and 1907, with 
the values of such exports for each one of the said years separately. Presented 28th 
February, 1908. — Hon. Mr. Ellis Not printed. 

137. Regulations in virtue of the provisions of the Act 6-7 Edward VII., chapter 16, "The 
Electricity and Fluid Exportation Act." Presented 17th March, 1908, by Hon. W. 
Templeman Not printed. 

138. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 22nd January, 1908, for a copy of 
all correspondence, documents, resolutions and other papers, which have passed between 
t he Government of Canada, or any member of the Governrment, and any railway 
company or any individual relating to the building of a railroad from any point in 
Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, or British Columbia, to Fort Churchill or any point 
on Hudson Bay. Presented 2nd March, 1908. — Mr. Schaffner Not printed. 

139. Copy of an order in council appointing Mr. Samuel Tovel Bastedo, agent on behalf of 
1 he Dominion Government, to confer with the provincial governments with a view to 
settlement of the Fisheries question. Presented 11th March, 1908.— Hon. L. P. Brodcur. 

Not printed. 

140. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th February, 1908, for a copy of 
all correspondence, papers, writings, plans and letters between the Government and the 
International Waterways Commission, on one part, and the St. Lawrence Power Com- 
pany and the Long Sault Development Company, of the other part, with regard to the 
entire damming of the St. Lawrence river, in the vicinity of Cornwall; together with a 
copy of all memorials, letters and resolutions of protest sent to the Government by 
the Board of Trade of Montreal, the Chambre de Commerce, District de Montreal, the 
Shipping Federation of Montreal, the Dominion Marine Association, and others. 
Presented 2nd March, 1908. — Mr. Gervais Not printed. 

140a. Supplementary return to No. 140. Presented 13th July, 1908 Not printed. 

141. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 17th February, 1908, for a copy of 
advertisement calling for tenders for dredging work on Holland river, Trent Valley 
canal system, tenders received, schedules showing pries paid, recommendation of person 
for inspector, date of payments made to the contractors, and the contract with con- 
tractor. Presented 2nd March, 1908.— Mr. Bennett Not printed. 

33 
7461—3 



7 Edw. Vll. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME IB— Continued. 
141a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, showing what 
contracts for dredging in the St. Mary's river, Kaministiquia river, Mission river, Port 
Arthur harbour, Fort William harbour, and in Thunder Bay, or of any of the inlets 
or rivers thereof, have been let during the years 1904, 1905, 1906 and 1907, showing also : 
(a) the names, addresses and calling of all the tenderers in each case; (b~. the amount of 
each tenner ; (c) the nature and extent of the work to be let in each case; (d) the names, 
addresses and calling of the successful tenderer in each case; (e) the prices at which 
each contract was let, (/) the nature or form of security for the due performance of 
the work in each case, and (g) the disposition of or change in the form of any such 
security after it was originally given or deposited ; also, for a copy of all tenders, 
contracts, bonds or other securities, and of all correspondence relating or incident to 
all or any such tenders or contracts, including all correspondence relating to such con- 
tracts, or incident thereto, before and during the performance of the work and on file 
up to the date of the order for such return. Presented 17th July, 1908. — Mr. Boyce. 

Not printed. 

142. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, for a copy 
of all orders in council, correspondence, contracts, papers and reports in connection with 
the employment of certain experts to prepare a system of accounting and book-keeping 
in the Department of Marine and Fisheries. Presented 2nd March, 1908. — Mr. Foster. 

Not printed * 

143. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated, 11th December 1907, for a copy of 
all correspondence in connection with the application, granting, operation or renewal 
of license and lease conveying the privileges of fishing in Cedar, Moose, Cormorant and 
Tlear water Lakes; also a copy of said license and lease. Presented 3rd March, 190S. — 
Mr. Ames Not printed. 

144. Certain papers referring to Treaty Powers, &c. Presented 3rd March, by Hon. L. P. 
B'odeur Printed for sessional papers. 

145. Return to an order of the House of Commons dated 11th March, 1907, for a copy of all 
papers, affidavits and correspondence between the Government, or any official thereof, 
with the Prince Edward Island Railway, or any official thereof, or any other persons 
in reference to the leasing of the properties of Widow James Wiggins and Charles 
Malley, at Alberton, Prince Edward Island. Presented 3rd March, 1908. — Mr. Lefurgey. 

Not printed. 

146. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing the 
total amount of money paid yearly from the year 1892 to 1st December, 1907, on each 
of the following accounts: (a) Salary of Governor General; (b) Travelling expenses of 
Governor General; (c) Expenditure on Rideau Hall, capital account; Expenditure on 
Rideau Hall, maintenance; Expenditure on Rideau Hall grounds, capital account ; 
Expenditure on Rideau Hall grounds, maintenance; (d) Expenditure on furnishings 
of all kinds for Rideau Hall; (e) Expenditure on any other account in connection with 
the office of Governor General; (/) Expenditure on any other account in connection 
with Rideau Hall and grounds; (g) Total expenditure of every kind yearly since 18912 
in connection with the office of Governor General; (h) Total expenditure of every kind 
yearly in connection with Rideau Hall grounds. Presented 5th March, 1908.— Mr. 

Wilson (Lennox and Addington) Not printed. 

147. Ret urn to an address of the House of Commons, dated 15th January, 1908, for a copy 
of all correspondence, telegrams, orders in council, contracts and tenders, with the 
names, and amounts of each, in possession of the Government, or any member or official 
thereof, respecting the construction of a breakwater at Petit Rocher, on the eoutlu 
western side of Baie des Chaleurs, as detailed on page 74 of the Report of the Minister 
of Public Works for the year ended 31st March, 1907. Presented 5th March, 1908.— Mr. 
Taylor Not printed. 

147a. Supplementary Return to 147. Presented 12th June, 1908 Not printed. 

34 



Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 18— Continued. 

148. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 17th February, 1908, showing the 
individual name and place of residence of the captain and crew of each of the Govern- 
ment steamers Lansdowne, Aberdeen, Druid, Brant, Lady Laurier, Minto and Stanley. 
Presented 5th March, 1908.— Mr. StanfieJd Not printed. 

148a. Return to an order of the Senate, dated the 5th of February, 190S, for a statement 
showing, in so many columns : 1. The names of the officers actually employed on board 
of Government vessels or of vessels hired by the Government for the season of naviga- 
tion in the River St. Lawrence- 2. The amount of wages or salaries paid monthly to 
each of them for the period of their annual engagement. 3. The amount of wages or 
salaries paid monthly to those who are only employed for a part of the year. 4. The 
amount of wages or salaries paid monthly to those wiio, over and above their real ser- 
vice, are paid a part of their wages or salaries during the months in which the vessels 
are laid up for the winter. Presented 20th February, 1908. — Hon. Mr. Landry. 

Not printed. 

149. Relurn showing -what changes have occurred in the House of Commons branches of 
the Clerk of the House and the Sergeant-at-arms' service since 1st July, 1907. Pre- 
sented 5th March, 1908. — Mr. Owen Not printed. 

150. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 10th February, 1908, showing: 
1. How many Returns or Sessional Papers have been presented to Parliament in answer 
to motions for the same, since the 1st of January, 1906. 2. How many of these Returns 
were taken out of the Office of Routine and Records, and the Journal Office, by mem- 
bers of this House, since the above date, giving also the name of the member to whom 
delivered. 3. For what length of time such Returns were retained by the members who 
obtained them. 4. How many of these Returns had not been returned to the proper 
officer of the House of Commons on the 1st of January, 190S. 5. In the case of those 
returned, how long they were out with the members. 6. How many of these Returns 
are still in the possession of the members, and how long they have had them. 7. The 
means usually adopted by the Clerk of Routine and Records and the Clerk of Current 
Sessional Papers to have outstanding returns retransferred to their possession. 8. The 
average cost to the country of preparing these Returns by the various departments 
interested, during the above period. Presented 6th March, 1908. — Mr. Johnston. 

Not printed. 

151. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th December, 1907, showing: 1. 
The number of fishing licenses, the names of the parties to whom issued, and also the 
amounts of the revenues received from each license, on any or all of the lakes in the 
province of Saskatchewan. 2. For a copy of all correspondence in connection with each 
license so issued and in force, or about to be issued. 3. Also for a copy of the different 
forms used for fishing licenses in the province of Saskatchewan. Presented 9th March, 
1908. — Mr. Chisholm (East Huron, Not printed. 

152. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 20th January, 1903, for a copy of 
all correspondence, documents and papers, in the investigation into the case of Mr. O. 
S. Finnie, chief clerk in the gold commissioner's office, Dawson, Y.T. Presented 6th 
March, 1908. — Mr. Thompson Not printed. 

153. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 19th February, 190S, for a copy of 
all correspondence between Lieut.-Colonel Mallette, of the 64th Battalion, and the 
Department of Militia and Defence, concerning Major Sabourin, of St. John, Quebec. 
Presented 6th March, 1908. — Mr. Bergeron Not printed. 

153a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 19th February, 1908, for a copy 
of all correspondence between Lieut.-Colonel Mallette, of the 64th Battalion, and the 
Department of Militia and Defence, for the organization of a regiment in Valleyfield, 

Quebec. Presented 6th March, 1908. — Mr. Bergeron . .Not printed. 

35 
7461— 3£ 



; Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 18— Concluded, 

154. Keport of the Royal Commission on the Quebec Bridge inquiry; also the Report on the 
Design of the Quebec Bridge by C. C. Schneider ; with Appendices. Presented 9th 
March, 1908, by Hon. G. P. Graham. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers 

CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19. 

154. (Vol. 2.) Royal Commission Quebec Bridge inquiry. Minutes of proceedings. Evidence 
and exhibits Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

154c. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 12th December, 1907, for a copy 
of all orders in council, correspondence, reports, memoranda, papers and documents, 
since the 1st day of January, 1900, relating to the Quebec Bridge, including all reports 
and orders in council, relating to the plans and specifications for the works of the 
undertaking, or to any approval thereof by the Governor in Council, or by the Depart- 
ment of Railways and Canals. Presented 26th May, 1908.— Mr. Borden (Carleton). 

See No. 154. 
. Return to an address of the Senate, dated 29th Januray, 1908, for a statement showing: 
1. If the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company has fulfilled the obligation which was 
imposed upon it by clause 4 of the agreement made, between it and the Government, 
on the 19th day of October, 1908, which clause reads as follows : " 4. The company will 
procure subscriptions for additional stock to the amount of $200,000, such new stock to 
he issued at a price not below par and to be immediately paid up in full, the proceeds 
to be applied in the first place to the payment of the discount at which the bonds of 
the company were issued as aforesaid, to wit the sum of $188,721." (Being exactly the 
difference between the sum of $472,000, the amount of bonds issued, and the sum of 
?: 1 83,279, for which these same bonds were accepted.) 2. When did the company so 
furnish subscriptions for additional work to the amount of $200,000. 3. Who are the 
] ersons or the companies who divided among them this additional stock to the round 
turn of $200,000. 4. On what date and for what amount did each of these persons or each 
of these companies become owner of the aforesaid stock. 5. On what date did each of 
the aforesaid persons or companies pay into the hands of the company the price (in 
part or in whole) of the stock so subscribed. 6. And if this amount of $200,000 was paid 
in full and in what manner, distinguishing the amount paid in cash from the amount 
paid in promissory notes or in any other ways. Presented 2nd June, 1908.— Hon. Mr. 
Landry See No. 154. 

154c. Return to an address of the Senate, dated the 29th January, 1908, showing: 1. The 
amount of money really paid by each of the present directors of the Quebec Bridge and 
Railway Company into the capital 6tock of the said company. 2. The date each of 
these directors made each of his payments. 3. Among these payments or instalments 
the proportion or amount that has been paid by means of promissory note6 or of 
unaccepted cheques. 4. By whom individually, and for what amount each one. 5. The 
amount of money each of its directors has received from the Quebec Bridge Company 
and from the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company up to this date, directly or indi- 
rectly, personally or otherwise. 6. The nature of the services rendered for which each 
of these amounts was paid. 7. The amount the present secretary has received out of the 
funds of the company since he has been in the service thereof. 8. The resolution that 
subsequently to the collapse of the Quebec Bridge, within a few days immediately 
following the disaster, the bridge company has voted giving a bonus of $3,000 to its 
president. 9. The name of the funds, out of which the amount of this bonus was raised. 
10. The resolution, if any, the company, on the same occasions, voted to aid the families 
of the victims of that disaster. Presented 18th February, 1908.— Hon. Mr. Landry. 

Not printed. 

155. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 10th February, 1908. showing what 

:and has been withdrawn for settlement, or set apart, or sold, for colonization pur- 

36 



7 Edw. YII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Continued. 

poses, since 1S96; the location and amount in each case, specifying townships, sections 
half or quarter-section; to whom it has heen sold, or alienated, and on what terms of 
settlement; the price per acre, on te^ms of payment, and the nationality of the settlers 
in each colony ; when the land was sold, alienated, reserved, or set apart, for such pur- 
pose, in each case; and how many of these companies have complied with their con- 
tracts, and to what extent. Presented 9th March, 1908. — Mr. Sproule Not printed. 

155«. Rpturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 190S, showing 
what lands, if any, have been reserved for grazing purposes or for acquisition by mean? 
of irrigation within the tract described as follows: Townships 12 to 19, inclusive, in 
ranges 15 to 21, west of the 4th meridian; and when such lands were so reserved, and for 
how long it is the purpose of the Government to continue such reservation. Presented 
16th March, 1908.— Mr. Lennox Not printed. 

155?;. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th March, 1908, for a copy or 
all correspondence, telegrams, reports, applications, surveyors' plans and maps, in 
reference to the homestead entrios for the southwest quarter of «ection 27, township IS. 
range 10, east, in the province of Manitoba. Presented 27th March, 190S. — Mr. Staples. 

Xot printed. 

1 55c. Return to an order of the House of Commoas, dated 2:1th January, 1908, for a copy of 
all correspondence, applications, recommendations for patent, and all papers in any 
way relating to the disposal of or granting of privileges in connection with the s.e. \ of 
section 2, township 8, range 2, west of the 5th meridian. Presented 3rd April, 1908.— 
Mr. Hcrron Not printed 

155d. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 23rd March, 1908, for .a copy of 
all correspondence, applications and all other papers and documents relating in an;. 
way to any and all applications for or in connection with or relating to the southea-" 
quarter of section 14, township 12, range 6, west 4th meridian. Presented 6th April, 
1908.— Mr. Herron Xot printed 

156. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 2nd March, 1908, showing who 
made the seizures under the Inland Revenue Department in the fiscal years 1906 and 
1907, in Cornwall, London, Ottawa, St. Catharines, Toronto, Joliette and Montreal, an 1 
what the seizures consisted of; the name of the party or parties from whom tke 
material was seized; the amount realized by the sale of such seized material; and how 
this seized material was disposed of. Presented 9th March, 1908. — Mr. Barr. 

Xot printed. 

156a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 1908, showin. 

number of seizures under the Inland Revenue Department in the years 1906 and 1907 
the name of the party or parties making the seizure; the description and quan*: 
material seized; the name of the parties from whom the material was seized; how the 
seized material was disposed of, whether by public auction or by private sale, and what 
the amount realized thereon was. Presented 9th March, 1908. — Mr. Barr.. .Xot printed. 

156b. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 9th March, 1908, showing the 
number of seizures made by the Customs Department for the fiscal years 1905, 1906 and 
1907; the reason for each seizure; the disposition of each case; the amount received 
by the Government, and by the party seizing or giving information in each case; and 
the names of the ports at which such seizures took place. Presented 23rd April, 1908.— 
Mr. Cockshutt Xot printed. 

156c. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 4th May, 1908, showing the names 
of all officers employed in the Customs Department at the ports of Niagara Falls, Pori 
Erie, Sarnia and Windsor; the rank and duties of their respective appointments, their 
salaries at the time of appointment, present rank, and increase of salary to any of 
these officers since date of their appointment. Presented 4th May, 1908. — Hon. W. 
Paterson Xot printed 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Con tinned. 

157. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated Stli January, 1908, for copies o' 
all documents, petitions, memoranda and correspondence received by the Government 
since 1904, to this day, regarding the amendments to be made to the Inland Revenue 
Act for the purpose of encouraging and protecting still more the Canadian tobacco 
industry. Presented 9th March, 190S.— Mr. Dubeau Not printed 

157a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th February, 1908, for a copy 
of all correspondence between the collector of customs at Charlottetown, Prince Edward 
Island, and the Minister of Customs, or the Commissioner of Customs, including 
declarations or statements in writing made by Messrs. Donald Nicholson and Evelyn 
B. Harnett, of the Hickey & Nicholson Tobacco Company, Limited, respecting alleged 
infraction of the provisions of the Inland Revenue Act, and of the regulations in 
respect of tobacco and cigars and tobacco and cigar manufactories, by Messrs. T. B 
and D. J. Riley, of Charlottetown, or one of them. Also a copy of the reports of 
William Caven and other officials and collectors of Inland Revenue; and of all corres- 
pondence, letters and telegrams between the said T. B. and D. J. Riley, or either of 
them, and the Government, or any department, or officer thereof; and of all corres- 
pondence between the officers of Inland Revenue in Charlottetown and the Government 
or any department or official thereof, respecting said alleged infraction of said Act or 
regulations; and all other correspondence, statements and information in possession 
of the Government relating to the matter aforesaid; together with a statement of the 
moneys paid voluntarily or otherwise in settlement or otherwise of penalties for such 
infraction of the law, to whom paid, and the date of payment. Presented 16th March, 
1908.— Mr. McLean (Queen's) Not printed. 

158. Papers relating to Trade Conference at Barbados. Presented 10th March, 19DS, by Hon. 
W. S. Fielding Not printed. 

159. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 29th January, 1908, for a copy of 
all applications, tenders, correspondence, telegrams, or written communications of any 
kind, in connection with the sale of certain lands in the Ocean Man, Pheasant Rump, 
and Chasastapsin Indian Reserves, on the 15th November, 1901; together with a copy 
of advertisements of sales, the names of the newspapers in which they were inserted, 
and the dates of insertion. Presentc-d 12th March, 1908.— Mr. Lake Not printed. 

160. Retain to an order of the House of Commons, dated 22nd January, 1908, showing how 
many fire extinguishers were purchased by the Government for the different depart- 
ments of the public service since the 30th June, 1906, to January 1st, 1908; from whom 
they were purchased, and at what price ; and the total amount paid for the same. Pre- 
sented 12th March, 19flfc". — Mr. Taylor Not printed. 

160a. Supplementary Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 22nd January, 
1908, (as far as the Department of Marine and Fisheries is concerned), showing how 
many fire extinguishers were purchased by the Government for the different depart- 
ments of the public service since the 30th of June, 1906, to 1st January, 1908 ; from whom 
they were purchased, and at what price; and the total amount paid for the same. 
Presented 26th March, 190S.— Mr. Taylor Not printed. 

161. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 22nd January, 1908, for a copy 
of all letters, correspondence, plans, surveys, estimates, &c, in connection with the 
proposal to open a waterway in St. Anicet and Ste. Barbe, in the county of Hunting- 
don, from Lake St. Francis to St. Louis River. Presented 12th March, 1903.- Mr. Walsh. 
(Huntingdon) Not printed. 

162. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th March, 1908, for copies of all 
correspondence between the Auditor General and the Department of Marine and 
Fisheries, concerning the travelling expenses of Commander Spain in 1905-6. Presented 
12th March, 1908.— Eon. L. P. Brodeur.. Not printed. 

38 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1903 



CONTENTS OE VOLUME 19— Continued. 

163. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th February, 1908, showing: 
1. The total revenue of Belleville, Ontario, Harbour, for the years 1903, 1904, 1905, 1906 
and 1907. 2. The expenditure for the years above-mentioned in the harbour ; (a) for 
salaries, and to whom, (b) dredging in each year; (c) for building retaining walls along 
the river at entrance of harbour ; and (d) to whom or what persons such last-named 
sums were paid. 3. What money, if any, the Government has advanced to the Harbour 
Commissioners of Belleville for improvements, how much and when. 4. If any money 
has been advanced, what security the Government holds for repayment of the same. 
5. The tenders received for building the retaining walls for improvement of Belleville 
Harbour, the tenderers, the amount of each tender, and to whom the,, contract was 
awarded. Presented 13th March, 1903. — Mr. Porter Not printed. 

164. Copy of the order in council appointing Mr. Richard L. Drury, of Victoria, B.C., as a 
special officer of the Immigration Branch of the Department of the Interior in Japan. 
Presented 17th March, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier Not printed. 

165. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 19th February, 1908, for a copy 
of all letters, telegrams, reports, documents and papers (so far as the same are not of 
a confidential character) in relation to the trial and conviction of one Frederick 
Blunden, for cattle stealing at Macleod, in the province of Alberta, in 1904. Presented 
19th March, 1908.— Mr. Ward Not printed. 

166. Return to an order of the Senate, dated the 17th March, 1908, for a copy of the Minutes 
of the meeting of the Standing Committee of the Senate on Railways, Telegraphs and 
Harbours, held on the 21st and 22nd of May, 1901, be laid on the table. Presented 18th 
March, 1908. — Hon. Mr. Landry Not printed. 

167. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 23rd March, 1908, for a copy of the 
interim report of the commissioner appointed to investigate alleged irregularities at 
Sorel in connection with construction of piers on Lake St. Peter. Presented 23rd 
March, 1908.— Hon. L. P. Brodeur Not printed. 

168. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 20th January, 1908, showing all 
fines imposed for violation of the Fisheries Act in Division No. 2, Nova Scotia, com- 
prising the counties of Antigonish, Colchester, Cumberland, Guysborough, Halifax, 
Hants and Pictou. showing the amount of each fine, dates on which same were imposed 
and paid, the place of trial in each case, the offence charged, and the names of the 
convicting justices or fishery officers. Presented 23rd March, 1908. — Mr. Sinclair. 

Not printed. 

169. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 11th March, 1908, for a copy of all 
orders in council, reports, correspondence, documents, letters and papers not already 
brought down, relating to a grant by His Majesty of any Indian reserves in the province 
of British Columbia to the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company, or to any officer of 
the company, or to any person on behalf of that company. Presented 24th March, 
1903. — Mr. Borden (Carleton) Printed for sessional papers 

170. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 20th January, 1908, showing the 
amount paid each year for provisions on each of the Government steamers for the last 
three fiscal years, the average complement of officers and men provisioned on each for 
each year, and the cost per man per day. Presented 24th March, 190S. — Mr. Foster. 

Not printed. 

171. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th February, 190S, for a copy of 
all petitions and correspondence relating to the establishment of a post office at Mill 
Settlement, West, and also at north side of Newcastle Creek, in the electoral division 
of Sunbury and Queen's. Presented 26th March, 1908.— Mr. Wilmot Not printed. 

39 



Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. v , A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Continued. 

171a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th March, 1908, for a copy of 
all letters, petitions, correspondence and other papers in connection with the applica 
tion to establish a post office at North Grove, in the county of Grenville. Presented 
3rd April, 1908.— Mr. Reid (Grenville) Not printed. 

171b. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 29th January, 1908, for a copy of 
all letters, telegrams and petitions, in possession of the Government, or any member or 
official thereof, respecting the dismissal of Mrs. Mary Finlay as postmistress at the 
head of St. Peter's Bay, and the appointment of her successor. Presented 3rd April, 
1908. — Mr. Martin (Queen's) Not printed. 

171c. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 190", showing the 
number of post offices receiving daily, tri-weekly, semi-weekly, and weekly mails, in 
each county of the provinces of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, and the total postal 
revenue and expenditure in each of said counties. Presented 3rd April, 1908. — Mr. 
Crocket .. Not printed. 

17 Id. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th March, 1908, for a copy of 
all correspondence, telegrams, petitions, &c, in possession of the Government or any 
member or official thereof, respecting the dismissal of Archibald McDonald as post- 
master at Whim Road Cross, Prince Edward Island, and the appointment of William 
McGinnon as his successor. Presented 3rd April, 1908. — Mr. Martin (Quvcyi's). 

Not printed, 

171e. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing 
what complaints respecting the inadequacy of postal service or delays therein, or re- 
specting lack of or defects in postal facilities or means of communications, have been 
received by the Post Office Department since the 1st day of January, 1907, and the 
general nature of such complaints. Presented 29th April, 1908. — Mr. Armstrong. 

Not printed 

17 If. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 9th March, 1908, for a copy of all 
petitions, letters of recommendation, written requests and correspondence with the 
government in connection with the opening of a Post Office Savings Bank in the post 
office at St. Gabriel de Brandon, in the province of Quebec. Presented 29th April, 1908.— 
Mr. Monk Not printed. 

171g. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 9th March, 1908, for a copy of all 
correspondence, telegrams, petitions with signatures thereto, in possession of the 
Government, or any member or official thereof, respecting the removal of a post office 
from <Vngus McDonald's place in Pisquid, Prince Edward Island, to Russell Birt's, of 
the same place. Presented 29th April, 1908. — Mr. Martin (Queen's) Not printed. 

17 Ih. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th March, 1908, for a copy of 
all correspondence ,telegrams and petitions in the possession of the Government or any 
member or official thereof, respecting the dismissal of Alex. McLeod in 1905, as post- 
master at Valleyfeld East, Prince Edward Island, and the appointment of his successor. 
Presented 29th April, 1908. — Mr. McLean (Queen's) Not printed 

171i. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 190S, for a copy 
of all correspondence, telegrams, reports, memoranda, resolutions and any information 
in the possession of the Government, relating to changes in postal charges or regula- 
tions within the past two years, between the United States and Canada. Presented 5th 
May, 1908.— Mr. Armstrong Not printed 

171;'. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, for a copy of 
all correspondence, telegrams, reports and memoranda, in possession of the Govern- 
ment, or any member or official thereof, respecting the establishment of daily mails 
and improvement of the mail service in the county of Queen's, Prince Edward Island. 
Presented 26th May, 190S.— Mr. Martin (Queen's) Not printed. 

40 



Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME Id— Continued. 

172. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 1903, showing what 
sums of money were paid during the fiscal years 1905-6 and 1906-7 by any department 
of the Government to the Steel Concrete Company, Limited; for what purpose such 
payments were made; what orders for work or material to be done or supplied by that 
company are now being filled, and the aggregate amount payable for same. Presented 
26th March, 1908.— Mr. Boyce Not printed. 

173. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 9th March, 1908, showing how 
many renewals of placer claims were granted by the Gold Commissioner at Dawson, on 
or subsequent to the 1st of August, 1906, at $10 each; why the fee of $15, as required by 
6 Edward VII., chapter 39, was not collected in these cases; and what shortages were 
afterwards collected. Presented 27th March, 1908.— Mr. Lennox Nol printed. 

173a. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 9th March, 1908, showing how 
many renewals of placer claims were granted by the Assistant Gold Commissioner at 
TThitehorse on or subsequent to 1st of August, at $10 each; why the fee of $15, as- 
required by 6 Edward VIL, chapter 39, was not collected in these cases; and what 
shortages have been collected. Presented 30th March, 1908.— Mr. Lennox.. Not printed. 

174. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated $th January, 1908, showing: 1 
What sums of money have been paid for advertising and printing, respectively, to the 
Sun and Star newspapers of St. John, N.B., the Chronicle of Halifax, the Echo and the 
Glace Bay Gazette, and the St. John Globe, during the following periods respectively: 
the fiscal years 1904-5, 1905-6, and from June 30, 1906, to date. 2. In what offices or job 
offices the printing is done for the Sun, Star, Chronicle and Echo. Presented 30rb 
March, 1908.— Mr. Foster Not printed. 

174a. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th June, 1908, showing all sums 
of money paid by the Government, or any department or official thereof, during th° 
years 1902, 1903, 19)4, 1905, 1906 and 1907, for advertising, printing, or for any other 
purpose, or on any other account whatever, to the Sault Express, a newspaper published 
at Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, or to any person or persons, firm or company for or in 
respect of any work done by said newspaper for the Government, or any department 
or official thereof: also showing what amounts, if any, are disputed and unpaid, and 
showing for what purpose such moneys were paid, and accounts were incurred, respec- 
tively, and by what departments, or officials of the Government. Presented 30th March, 
190S.— Mr. Boycc Not printed. 

1746. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 22nd January, 1908, showing what 
amount has been paid by the Dominion Government for all purposes, from 1st January, 
1901, to 1st January, 1908, to the following papers: Alberta Star, Cardston; Lethbridge 
Herald, Macleod Advance, Nan ton News, The Frank Paper. Presented 30th March, 
190S.— Mr. Herron , Not printed. 

175. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 15th January, 1908, showing the 
various services on which Mr. Shepley, K.C., has been engaged by the Government 
since 1896, and the amount that has been paid him for salary and expenses for each. 
Presented 30th March, 1938.— Mr. Foster Not printed. 

176. Eeturn to an address of the House of Commons, dated 16th March, 1908, for a copy of 
all orders in council, letters, telegrams, correspondence and papers of every description 
and nature relating to the appointment of the Hon. Arthur Drysdale as justice of the 
Supreme Court of No'ta Scotia, and especially all such documents as relate to the date 
of his acceptance of said appointment or the date of his declaration of intention to 
accept the same. President 30th March, 1908. — Mr. Taylor Not printed. 

177. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 23rd March, 1908, showing how 
much has been paid to C. Boone or the Boone Company, since 1896, and the amount 
paid for work in each year at each point where same was performed by said party, 
firm or company. Presented 30th March, 1908. — Mr. Bennett Not printed. 

41 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Continued. 



178. Maps and plans in connection with the Montreal, Ottawa and Georgian Bay Canal. 
Presented 30th March, 1908, by Hon. W. Pugsley See 178b. 

178a. Further maps and plans in connection with the Montreal, Ottawa and Georgian Bay 
Canal. Presented 13th May, 1908, by Hon. W. Pugsley See 178b. 

178b. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th July, 1908. Report of the 
engineer on the Georgian Bay Ship Canal, together with estimates, plans, &c, illus- 
trating the project in its main features. Presented 6th July, 1908. — Hon. W. Pugsley. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

179. Return to an order of the Senate, dated the 12th February, 1908, for a copy of: 1. The 
number of convicts under the age of twenty, and their respective nationalities. 2. The 
number of convicts fiom the age of twenty and upwards, and their nationalities, in 
each of the penitentiaries under Dominion control, for the years 1903, 1904, 1905, 1906 
and 1907. Presented 31st March, 1908. — Hon. Mr. Comeau Not printed. 

180. Return to an order of the Senate, dated the 18th February, 1908, showing with respect 
to the two routes of the Transcontinental Railway that were surveyed between Grand 
Falls and Chipman, in the province of New Brunswick, the estimated cost of each of 
the lines, that is to say: 1. The "Back Route/' so-called. 2. The St John Valley 
route. With the following details: (a) Cubic yards of ordinary excavation and fills; 
(b) cubic yards of loose rock; (c) cubic yards of solid rock; (d) cubic yards of concrete; 
(e)niiles of steel trestle and cost; (/)number and cost of bridges. And with respect to 
the " Back Routes/' giving the last-mentioned details as regards the following sub- 
divisions of that route: 1. Grand Falls and Tobique River. 2. Tobique River and 
Intercolonial Railway. 3. Intercolonial Railway and Cbipman. And is it the intention 
to adopt a pusher grade in the route selected? Presented 31st March, 1908. — Hon. Mr. 
Thompson Not printed. 

181. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th February, 1907, for a copy of 
all letters, accounts, vouchers, cheques, correspondence and documents relating to any 
amount paid to Mr. R. T. Mcllreith, barrister, of Halifax, for legal services, by the 
Government of Canada, during each of the fiscal years ending, respectively, 30th day 
of June, 1902, 1903, 1904, 1905 and 1906. Also relating to all amounts similarly paid to 
any legal agent or representative of the Government at Halifax during each of the 
fiscal years ending respectively, 30th June, 1891, 1892, 1893, 1894, 1895, 1S96 and 1897. 
Presented 1st April, 1908. — Mr. Crocket Not printed. 

181a. Supplementary return to No. 181. Presented 3rd April, 1908 Not printed. 

182. Copy of order in council relative to the appointment of the Honourable Walter Cassels, 
a commissioner to investigate and report upon certain statements contained in the 
Report of the Civil Service Commission, reflecting upon the integrity of the officials of 
the Department of Marine and Fisheries. Presented 2nd April, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid 
Laurier Not printed. 

182a. Correspondence between Sir Wilfrid Laurier and the Honourable Mr. Justice Cassels 
on the subject of the appointment of the latter to investigate and report upon certain 
statements contained in the Report of the Civil Service Commission, reflecting on the 
integrity of the officials of the Department of Marine and Fisheries. Presented 7th 
April, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier Not printed. 

1825. Correspondence between the Honourable Mr. Aylesworth and the Honourable Mr. 
Justice Cassels on the subject of the appointment of the latter to investigate and report 
upon certain statements contained in the Report of the Civil Service Commission, 
reflecting on the integrity of the officials of the Department of Marine and Fisheries. 
Presented 19th April, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier Not printed. 

182c. Letter of instructions from the Minister of Justice to George H. Watson, Esq., K.C , 
respecting the appointment of the latter as counsel to act with Honourable Mr. Justice 
Cassels in the investigation upon certain statements contained in the Report of the 

42 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Continued. 

Civil Service Commission, reflecting on the integrity of the officials of the Department 
of Marine and Fisheries. Presented 1st May, 1908, by Hon. A. B. Aylesworth. 

Not prhited. 

182d. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 15th January, 1908, showing all 
commissions of inquiry appointed between 1896 and 1908, the dates of appointment 
thereof, the names of the commissioners appointed and the secretary and counsel, or 
others appointed to assist them, the purpose or object of each such commission, the 
date of report of each such commission, what legislation, if any, has been enacted in 
consequence of such commissions and reports, the cost of each such commission, includ 
ing salaries, travelling expenses, witness fees, fees of counsel, and other assistants, and 
for printing, distinguishing each separately. Presented 5th May, 1908.— Mr. Porter. 

Xot printed. 

183. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, showing the 
various Marconi stations established by the Government, their location, the cost of 
construction and maintenance of each, the messages sent by each, the rate of tolls and 
the receipts, and all contracts, reports, papers and correspondence, in connection there- 
with. Presented 3rd April, 1908. — Mr. Foster Xot printed 

183a. Supplementary Return to Xo. 183. Presented 11th May, 190s Xot printed. 

184. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 17th February, 1908, showing what 
quality or quantity of goods or supplies have been furnished by the Office Specialty 
Company to the Dominion of Canada in every department of the service since 1S96, and 
the total amount for each year. Presented 3rd April, 1908. — Mr. Bennett. .Xot printed. 

185. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 19th February, 1908, for a copy 
of a memorial addressed to His Excellency the Governor General, respecting a refer- 
ence to the Privy Council in regard to the constitutionality of the Saskatchewan Act 
passed by the Legislative Assembly of the province of Saskatchewan on the 23rd May, 
1906; together with a copy of all correspondence, telegrams or other communications, 
relating thereto, between the Dominion Government or any member thereof, and the 
Government of Saskatchewan or any member thereof. Presented 31st March, 1908. — 
Mr. Lake Printed for sessional papers. 

186. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 29th January, 1908, for a copy of 
all reports, plans, specifications, tenders, correspondence, telegrams, and all other 
papers, documents, and other information in connection with the construction of the 
Hillsboro' Bridge and approaches, including land purchases necessary therefor. Pre- 
sented 6th April, 1908. — Mr. Lefurgey Xot printed. 

187. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 10th February, 1908, showing what 
action, if any, has been taken by this Government since 19th March, 1903, which would 
have for its object the removal of the cattle embargo upon Canadian cattle entering 
Great Britain. 2. For a copy of a resolution said to have been passed some years ago 
by the committee on agriculture, which requested that the Minister of Agriculture of 
the Dominion should invite the ministers of the different provinces in the Dominion to 
form themselves into a committee, whose object was to lay before the Government pf 
Great Britain the importance of removing the cattle embargo. 3. Also showing what 
efforts, if any, have been made by the Minister of Agriculture to comply with the 
wishes of the above-named committee so expressed; together with a copy of the report, 
if any, of the same to the House, and what efforts have been so made; with what reason, 
if any, the Government assigns for not taking action in the matter. Presented 6tb 
April, 190S. — 3/?-. Armstrong Xot printed. 

188. Census and Statistics, Bulletin V., Agricultural Census of Ontario, Quebec and thp 
Maritime Provinces, 1907. Presented 6th April, 190S, by Hon. S. A. Fisher.. Xot printed. 

43 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME Id— Continued. 

189. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 30th March, 1908, for a copy of 
all memorials, documents, telegrams, and correspondence between the government of 
Prince Edward Island and the Government of Canada since 30th June, 1904, wflth 
respect to the non-fulfilment of the terms of union and for claims for damages in 
respect thereof. Presented 7th April, 1908.— Mr. McLean (Queen's) Not printed. 

190. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 17th February, 1908, for a copy of 
all correspondence, telegrams, reports, memoranda, resolutions, and any other informa- 
tion in possession of the Government or any member or official thereof, respecting the 
construction of branch railway lines in Prince Edward Island. Presented 13th April,. 
1908.— Mr. Martin (Queen's) .Not printed. 

191. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 30th March, 1908, for a copy of 
all orders in council, reports, documents, correspondence and papers, from the 1st day 
of January, 1907, to the present time, relating to the passage of United States wari 
ships or training ships through the St. Lawrence canals and Great Lakes, including 
a statement showing the number of United States war ships or training ships which 
have passed through the St. Lawrence canals during that period, and a statement of all 
such war ships or training ships now on the Great Lakes, and particulars of the 
tonnage, horse-power, armament and crew of such war ship or training ship, and of the 
naval reserves or other naval forces of the United States Government, or of any State 
Government upon the Great Lakes; also all correspondence respecting the proposed 
passage of the gunboat Nashville through the St. Lawrence canals and river on her 
way to the Great Lakes next summer. Presented 7th April, 1908.— Mr. Taylor. 

Not printed. 

192. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 29th January, 1908, for copies of 
all papers, representations, memorials and correspondence had with the Minister of 
Finance or any member of the Government in reference to the proposed action of the 
Government through or in conjunction with the banks, to facilitate in a financial way 
the movements of the grain from the western provinces of Canada. Presented 7tb 
April, 1908.— Mr. Foster , Not prir, ted. 

193. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, J307, showing: 
1. How many drill halls have been constructed or are under construction by the Gov- 
ernment since 1896. 2. In what localities these buildings have been constructed, and the 
cost of construction in each case. 3. What military organizations exist in the respective 
localities in which these drill halls have been erected, and the numerical strength of 
each such military organization. Presented 7th April, 1908.— Mr. Worthington. 

Not printed. 

194. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated March, 1908, for a copy of all 
orders in council and regulations made by the Governor in Council, or prescribed by 
the Minister of Customs under the provisions of chapter eleven (11) of the Acts of 
1907, (6 and 7 Edward VII.), relating to materials to be used in Canada for the 
construction of bridges or tunnels crossing the boundary between the United States 
and Canada, and all similar regulations or legislative or administrative provisions of 
the United States Customs Laws relating to such materials. Presented 8th April, 
1908.— Mr. Clements Not printed. 

195. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 15th January, 1908, for a complete 
list of the publications in Canada enjoying the newspaper rate. Presented 8th April, 
190S. — Mr. Cockshutt Not printed. 

196. Partial Return to an order of the Senate, dated the 17th March, 1908, for a copy of 
the service-roll of the Garrison Artillery Companies of Ottawa and Morrisburg, giving 
names of the militiamen who were on active service, and who were in barracks at Fort 
Wellington, Prescott, during the months of November and December, 1865, and during 
the months of January, February, March, April, May and June, 1866; and also a 

44 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Continued. 

statement showing what was the daily pay paid to the soldiers of these two corps and 
that which the militiamen belonging to Company No. 2 of the Ottawa Field Battery 
received at the same time, or that which was received by other corps of the Military 
District of Ottawa, which were also called out for active service. Presented Sth April, 
190S.— Eon. Mr. Landry Xot printed. 

197. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 16th March, 1908, for a copy of all 
orders in council, reports, memoranda, agreements, contracts and other documents and 
papers of every kind, nature and description, from the 1st of January, 1900, up to the 
present time, relating to or touching the Dolkese or Dokis Indian reserve, or touching 
the surrender thereof of the timber thereon, and especially all such documents as 
aforesaid as relate to any proposals or arrangements for the surrender of any rights 
by the Indians in the said reserve or in the timber thereon, or to the sale or disposal of 
the said timber or any part thereof. Presented 9th April, 1908. — Mr. Borden (Carleton). 

Xot printed. 

197c Supplementary return to No. 197. Presented 2nd July, 1908 Xot printed. 

197?> . Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 23rd March, 1903, for a copy of 
all opinions of the Minister of Justice, or Deputy Minister of Justice, or any official of 
the Department of Justice, to the Minister of the Interior or any official of the Depart- 
ment of the Interior, with respect to the Metlakatla and Songhees Lndian reserves, or 
either of the said reserves, since the 1st day of January, 1906. Presented 22nd April, 
1908.— Mr. Borden (Carleton) Xot printed. 

197c. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, for a copy of all 
petitions, memorials, documents, correspondence and papers touching any matters, 
transactions or negotiations between the Department of Indian Affairs and the council 
of the Six Nations reserve, or the chief or chiefs of the said council or the Indian 
Eights Association or Warriors' Association, from the 1st day of January, 1906, to the 
present time. Presented 18th May, 1908. — Mr. Lake Xot printed. 

198. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th March, 19C3, for a copy of 
contract and all correspondence in connection with purchase of cement from E. A. 
Wallberg, by the Department of Marine and Fisheries, to heighten Heath Point. Pre- 
sented 13th April, 190S.— Mr. Staples Not printed. 

199. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 19th February, 1908, showing: 
1. What amount the firm of H. X. Bate & Co has received from each department of 
the Government since the year 1896 for supplies, giving the amount paid each year 
separately. 2. What amount the firm of W. C. Edwards & Co. has received from each 
department of the Government since the year 1896 for supplies, giving the amount paid 
each year separately. Presented 13th April, 1908.— if?-. Taylor Xot printed. 

200. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th March, 1908, for a copy of all 
petitions, letters and applications, by or on behalf of " La Societe Canadienne d'immi- 
gration et de placement/' for assistance from the Government, and the answer by the 
Government or its officials to the same. Presented 13th April, 1908. — Mr. Monk. 

Xot printed 

201. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 30th March, 1908, for a copy, as it 
appeared printed in the Yukon World and Official Gazette for nine months cf the finan- 
cial year 1906-7, of a synopsis of mining regulations referred to in the Auditor 
General's Eeport, 1906-7, at page L — 37, and also setting forth the number of times thr- 
said advertisement appeared in the newspapers referred to in the time stated. Pre- 
sented 13th April, 190S. — Mr. Lennox Xot printed 

202. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 1908, for a copy of 
all correspondence, leases or other papers in connection with the leasing or proposed 
leasing of Kananaski Falls, on the Bow river. A copy of all correspondence and other 

45 



7 Echv. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 190S 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Continued. 

papers in connection with the selling or otherwise disposing of 1,000 acres or any lands 
to the Calgary Power and Transmission Company (Limited). A statement showing an 
estimate of about the number of acres and territory owned by the Stony India(n 
Reserve, held in trust for the Indians, the said statement showing the quantity on each 
side of Bow river. Presented 13th April, 1908. — Mr. Reid (Grenville) Not printed. 

203. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 29th January, 1908, for a copy of 
all correspondence, telegrams, memoranda and reports, between the Government and 
its officers and solicitors and the provincial or territorial governments, in regard to 
the cases taken to test the liability for taxation of the Canadian Pacific Railway 
Company in the cases Rural Municipality of North Cypress vs. Canadian Pacific 
Railway; Rural Municipality of Argyle vs. Canadian Pacific Railway; Springdale 
School District vs. Canadian Pacific Railway ; together with copies of all judgments of 
the courts before whom the cases were tried, and of the refusal of the Judicial Com- 
mittee of the Privy Council of the application for leave to appeal to that court. Pre- 
sented 21st April, 1908.— Mr. Lake Not printed. 

204. Copy of a Report of the Privy Council approved by His Excellency the Administrator 
on the 21st April, 1908, on a memorandum dated 20th April, 1908, from the Minister of 
Public Works, recommending that the order in council of the 30th March, 1908, 
providing for the continuation of certain contracts therein mentioned for dredging at 
various places in the provinces of Ontario and Nova Scotia be cancelled. Presented 
23rd April, 1908, by Hon. W. Pugsley Not printed. 

205. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 27th April, 1908, showing claims 
for damages to property, or personal injury or loss or damage on the Intercolonial 
Railway, which have been settled since 1st January, 1908; nature of the claims so 
settled; amount of damage claimed in each case; the settlements arrived at, and the 
names of the persons so settled with. Presented 27th April, 1908.— Hon. G. P. Graham. 

Not printed. 

205a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, for a copy of the 
Report of the "Deputy Minister of Railways and Canals, and* the Deputy Minister of 
Maiine and Fisheries in reference to their meeting with delegates of the Boards of 
Trade of Prince Edward Island at Charlottetown in June last, to take into considera- 
tion the removal of the heavy freight and passenger rates on the Prince Edward Island 
Railway and the Intercolonial Railway, and on freight and passenger rates to and 
from Prince Edward Island; also all correspondence, telegrams, &c, in possession of 
the Government or any member or official relating thereto, and other questions dis- 
cussed at said meeting. Presented 27th April, 1908.— Mr. Martin (Queen's). Not printed. 

205b. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 30th March, 1908, for a copy of 
all letters, telegrams and other documents relating to an accident which happened at 
Mulgrave, Nova Scotia, on the 3rd of December last, whreby Captain James Forrestall 
lost his life; and also the evidence taken at the investigation subsequently held by 
officers of the department and the report made thereon. Presented 7th May, 1908.— 
Mr. Sinclair Not printed. 

205c. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, showing the 
number of trains, both freight and passenger, on the Intercolonial Railway breaking 
down or detained from defects in engines during the months of October, November and 
December, 1907, and the causes of such defects. Presented 18th May, 1908.— Mr. Reid 
(Grenville) Not, p7 in ted. 

205d. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, showing the 
number of locomotives on the Intercolonial Railway out of service on the 31st December, 
1907, and the date of purchase of each engine out of service, from whom purchased, 
type of engine, passenger or freight, haulage capacity, when in efficient state of repair, 
when put out of service, and when last used. Presented 18th May, 1908.— Mr. Reid 

(Grenville) Not printed. 

4G 



7 Edw. VII. J-.-- t Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLTTME 19— Continued. 

205e. Return to an order of the House ox Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, showing th^ 
number of tons of new steel rails lying along the line of the Intercolonial Railway 
unused, date when purchased, if required, and when to be used. Presented ISth Mar, 
1908.— Mr. Beid (Grenville) Xot printed. 

205/. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 1903, showing the 
number of locomotives in service on the Intercolonial Railway on the several Sundays 
in the months of October, November and December, 1907, hauling freight trains. 
Presented 18th May, 1908.— Mr. Reid (Grenville) Xot printed. 

2Q5g. Return to an order of the Senate, dated the 12th May, 1908, for a copy of ell the corres- 
pondence exchanged in 1906 and 1907, between Mr. L. C. A. Casgrain, of Nicolet, and 
Messrs. J. Butler, Deputy Minister of Railway and Canals, and T. C. Burpee, engineer, 
or any other persons in the Department of Railways and Canals, on the subject of the 
fences along the line of the Intercolonial Railway across the county of Nicolet and the 
neighbouring counties. Presented 21st May, 1908. — Eon. Mr. Landry Xot printed. 

205/i. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 10th June, 1908, for copies of all 
accounts, vouchers, correspondence and other papers relating to a payment of 8S,399.6S 
to K. Falconer in connection with New Accounting System on Government Railways, as 
set out at Page W— 192, Report Auditor General, 1906. Presented 10th June, 190S.— 
Hon. G. P. Graham Xot printed. 

205i. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 190S, for a copy of all 
correspondence, telegrams, reports and recommendations in possession of the Govern- 
ment, or any member or official thereof, with respect to improved railway service on 
the Belfast and Murray Harbour Branch Railway. Presented 10th June, 1908.— 
Mr. Martin (Queen's j Xot printed. 

206. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated ISth March, 1908, for a copy of 
all papers necessary to bring the information contained in Sessional Paper No. 90, 1907, 
up to date. (Robins Irrigation Company.) Presented 28th April, 1905. — Mr. ±mes. 

Xot printed. 

207. Certified copies of Reports of the Committee of the Privy Council, dated 30th March, 
190S, and 16th April, 1908, approved by His Excellency the Administrator, and of the 
28th April, 1908, approved by His Excellency the Governor General, on certain estimates 
of expenses in connection with the celebration of the founding of Quebec by Samuel de 
Champlain, submitted by the National Battlefields Commission for the sanction and 
approval of the Governor General in Council. Presented 30th April, 1905, by Sir Wilfrid 
Laurier Printed for sessional papers. 

208. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, for a copy of all cor- 
respondence, reports, telegrams, resolutions, petitions, &c, in possession of the Govern- 
ment or any member or official thereof, respecting the demand of the Charlottetown 
Board of Trade or any person in Prince Edward Island, for federal legislation to give 
sailing vessels and steamers equal rights in their proper loading turns at the coal ports 
in Nova Scotia and Cape Breton. Presented 5th May, 1908. — Mr. Martin (Queen's). 

Xot printed. 

209. Return to an address of the Senate, dated 10th April, 1908, showing: 1. The number of 
automatic low pressure acetylene gas buoys which have been purchased by the Govern- 
ment during the years 1904-5-6-7 from the International Marine Signal Company, of 
Ottawa, giving each year separate, and the prices paid for the same. 2. Whether ten- 
ders were called for their supply ; if so how many tenders were received, from whom, 
and the prices at which they were offered. 3. How many other gas buoys, beacons, 
whistling buoys and light appliances were purchased from the same company during 
the same period of time, the price* paid for the same; whether any tenders were called 
for ; if so, the names of the tenderers and the prices asked. 4. The quantity of the 
carbide purchased by the Government during the years 1903-4-5-6-7, the price paid, from 

47 



Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. . A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Continued. 

whom purchased and whether by tender or otherwise. Presented 6th May, 1908. — Hon. 
Sir Mackenzie Bow ell .Not printed. 

210. Eeturn to an address of the Senate, dated 30th January, 1908, showing: 1. Has Mr. 
Michel Simeon Delisle, of the parish of Portneuf, in the county of Porta euf, merchant, 
and, since 1900, member of the House of Commons, at any time after the general 
elections of 1896, received any sum of money whatsoever coming from the federal 
treasury. 2. If so, when, how much, and for what object at each time. Presented 6th 
May, 1908. — Hon. Mr. Landry Not printed. 

211. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th May, 1908, for a copy of the 
report made by Mr. Victor Gaudet as a result of the investigation held by him into 
charges preferred against E. Roy, foreman of works, under the Department of 
Marine and Fisheries; and of the evidence in connection therewith. Presented 11th 
May, 1908.— Hon. L. P. Brodeur Not printed. 

212. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 9th March, 1908, for a copy of all 
correspondence, telegrams, reports, and all other information, not already brought 
down, in possession of the Government or any member or official thereof, in reference to 
winter communication, and the construction of a tunnel between Prince Edward Island 
and the mainland of Canada. Presented 2nd July, 1908. — Mr. Martin (Queen's). 

Not printed. 

213. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 3rd February, 1908, for a copy of 
all tenders, contracts, correspondence, plans, specifications, certificates, schedules, and 
all other papers and documents, including settlement, agreements, claims or adjust- 
ments thereof, relating to the contract of Messieurs Murray & Cleveland to do the work 
at the eastern gap at Toronto Harbour, which work was completed in or about the 
year 1896. Presented 14th May, 1908.— Mr. Macdonell Not printed. 

214. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, for a copy of all 
letters, telegrams, memoranda and correspondence of every kind between the Minister 
of Marine and Fisheries, or any officer of his department, and any person or persons, 
respecting the purchase of supplies for the Department of Marine and Fisheries at 
Quebec, St. John, New Brunswick and Halifax, during the years 1892, 1893, 1894, 1895 
and 1896. Presented 14th May, 1908.— Mr. Johnston Not printed. 

215. Copy of a treaty between Great Britain and the United States concerning the fisheries 
in waters contiguous to the Dominion of Canada and the United States, signed at. 
Washington on April 11, 1908. Presented 19th May, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier. 

Printed for both distribution and sessional papers 

215a. Correspondence, orders in council and despatches in connection with the negotiation 

of a treaty between Great Britain and the United States concerning the fisheries in 

waters contiguous to the Dominion of Canada and the United States* Presented 4th 

June, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier.. .Printed for both distribution and sessional papers. 

216. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 29th January, 1908, showing the 
total expenditure by the Department of Public Works in Prince Edward Island over 
the following periods: 1873 to 1878; 1878 to 1896; 1896 to 1907; and the total expenditure 
by the Public Works Department in Prince county over periods 1873 to 1878; 1878 to 
1882; 1882 to 1887; 1887 to 1891; 1891 to 1896; 1896 to 1900; 1900 to 1907, respectively. And 
the expenditures by the Public AVorks Department in the counties of Queen's and 
King's for the years and the periods of years above-mentioned. Also the total expendi- 
tures in said province by the Post Office Department, the Department of Railways and 
Canals, and the Department of Militia and Defence. And further, the total expendi- 
tures by the Department of Marine and Fisheries, including the development, propaga- 
tion and preservation of the fisheries, and in the maintenance of winter communication 
across the Northumberland Straits, for the years and periods of years above referred to. 
Presented 26th May, 1908. — Mr. Lefurgey Not printed. 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Continued. 

217. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy of 
all correspondence, contracts and appointments of overseers in respect to Port Burwell 
Harbour, in the county of Elgin, Ontario, since 1st January, 1907; also a return 
showing pay-sheets, amount of new material used, from whom purchased, of all day or 
contract work on the said harbour, giving names of overseers and by whom appointed 
for the same. Presented 26th May, 1908.— Mr. Marshall Not printed. 

218. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th May, 1908, showing the names 
of all persons who furnished supplies to the steamer Petrel between the 31st March, 
1907, and 30th April, 1908, the amount paid to each such person, and the date of each 
payment. Presented 4th June, 1908. — Mr. Chisholm (Huron) Not printed. 

219. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 19th February, 1908, (a) showing 
the revenue contributed by the province of British Columbia for each and every year 
from 1572-3 to 1905, inclusive, under the following heads: 1. Customs. 2. Chinese 
Immigration. 3. Inland Revenue, Excise, Weights and Measures, Gas Inspection, 
Electric Light Inspection, Methylated Spirits, Sundries. 4. Post Offices. 5. Public 
Works, Telegraphs, Esquimalt Graving Dock, Casual. 6. Experimental Farm. 7. 
Penitentiary. 8. Marine and Fisheries, Sick Mariners' Fund, Steamboat Inspection, 
examination of Masters and Mates, Casual and Harbours, Fisheries. 9. Superannua- 
tion. 10. Dominion Lands and Timber. 11. Vancouver Assay Office. 12. Miscellaneous. 
13. Public Debt. 14. Any other source. And (b)showing expenditure by the Dominion 
of Canada on account of the province of British Columbia, for each and every year 
from 1872-3 to 1905, inclusive, under the following heads : 1. Public Debt. 2. Charges 
of Management. 3. Lieutenant Governor. 4. Administration of Justice, Jtidges, &c. 
5. Penitentiary. 6. Experimental Farm. 7. Quarantine. 8. Immigration. 9. Pensions, 
&e. 10. Militia. 11. Public Works, Buildings, Harbours and Rivers, Dredging. 12. 
Telegraphs, Agency. 13. Mail subsidy. 14. Marine and Fisheries, Dominion Steamers, 
Lighthouses, Meteorological Marine Hospital, Steamboat Inspection, Miscellaneous, 
Fisheries, Fisheries Inspection, Hatcheries. 15. Indians. 16. Subsidies. 17. Dominion 
Lands. 18. Customs. 19. Inland Revenue, Excise, Weights and Measures, Gas and 
Electric Light. 20. Esquimalt Dry Dock. 21. Post Office. 22. Chinese Immigration. 
23. Defences, Esquimalt. 24. Chinese Immigration Inquiry. 25. Bounty on Minerals. 
26. Miscellaneous. 27. Vancouver Assay Office. 28. Railway Subsidies. 29. Any other 
source. Presented 10th July, 1908. — Mr. Boss (Yale-Cariboo).. Printed for distribution. 

220. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 3rd February, 1903, showing during 
the last ten years how much money has been expended by years by this Government 
for printing and lithographing done outside of Canada; and for what reason such 
work was done out of Canada. Presented 4th June, 1908. — Mr. Macdonell . .Not pointed. 

221. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 5th June, 1908, for a 
copy of the evidence taken in the Montcalm-Milicaukee collision case, and a copy of the 
decision of the wreck commissioner and of the assessors on the collision. Presented 
5th June, 1908. — Hon. L. P. Brodeur. Xot printed. 

222. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, for the pro- 
duction of the following: 1. A copy of the appointment of Doctor Edmond Savard, of 
Chicoutimi, as paymaster for the county of Chicoutimi. 2. A copy of the instructions 

. given to him as such regarding the validity of the receipts. 3. A copy of all corres- 
pondence that took place between Doctor Edmond Savard and the Department jpf 
Public Works of Canada in regard to the St. Fulgence pier, in the county of Chicou- 
timi. 4. A copy of all correspondence that took place between the Auditor General and 
the. Department of Public Works regarding the said Doctor Edmond Savard, pay- 
master, concerning the St. Fulgence pier. 5. A copy of all the pay lists in connection 
with the said St. Fulgence pier during the period of time that the said Doctor Savard 

49 
7461—4 



Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Continued. 

was paymaster. 6. A copy of all the pay lists for works done to the wharfs of Chicou- 
timi and St. Alexis during the time that the said Doctor Savard was paymaster. 
Presented 9th June, 1908. — Mr. Bergeron Not printed. 

223. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th March, 1908, showing: 1. All 
lands or interests in lands granted by the Government to the Temperance Colonization 
Society, together with the dates of such grants, description of lands granted, 
consideration paid, or terms upon which such lands were granted, and all 
other particulars of sale. 2. Showing the terms of settlement or otherwise upon 
which such lands were granted, or held by the Society, and the conditions or 
regulations in force from time to time regarding such grants, and the holding 
thereof respectively. 3. Showing wherein or in what respect and with respect to what 
lands, the said Society lived up to, and complied with such conditions and regulations, 
and wherein the Society failed to comply therewith. 4. Showing what lands, if any, 
have been reclaimed by the oGvernment from the Society for such non-compliance 
with such terms and conditions, or for any other cause or reason. 5. Showing what 
lands the said Society still hold, as far as known. 6. Showing whether the said 
Society is still in existence, and if so, who compose the same as far as known. 7. Also 
for a copy of all correspondence, reports, memoranda, orders in council, or other docu- 
ments in possession of the Government, relating to the said Society or the lands 
granted thereto. Presented 10th June, 1908. — Mr. Macdonell Not printed. 

224. "Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, showing the 
number of men and the quantity of supplies, material and mails transported o ; n 
Government account over the Qu'Appelle, Long Lake and Saskatchewan Railway, the 
Calgary and Edmonton Railway, the Lake Manitoba Railway and Canal Company, and 
the Winnipeg Great Northern Railway, with the cost of same at current transport 
rates, since the beginning of the contract arrangements made with each, up to date. 
Presented 17th June, 1908.— Mr. Foster Not printed. 

225. Supplementary Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 17th December, 
1906, for: 1. A copy of all leases and agreements between the Government, repre- 
sented by the Department of Marine and Fisheries, and (a) the Athabasca Fish Com- 
pany (J. K. McKenzie, Selkirk, Manitoba), or their assigns, Messrs. Butterfield & Dee; 
(b) A. McNee, Windsor, Ontario; (c) the British American Fish Corporation, of 
Montreal and Selkirk (F. H. Markey). 2. A copy of all reports, correspondence or 
documents, relating to or touching upon the application for securing of, transfer of, 
or enjoyment of any privileges under said leases. 3. A statement of all rentajs, 
bonuses, or payments to the Government in respect of such leases to date. 4. All 
information in the possession of or procurable by the Government with reference to 
(a) the number of tugs, boats and men employed; (b) the quantity and value of nets 
used; (c) the number and value of fish taken; (d) the quantity of fish exported under 
each of said leases during the last period of twelve months, for which such figures are 
available. Presented 26th June, 1908. — Mr. Ames Not printed. 

226. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 23rd March, 1908, for a copy of all 
contracts, papers and other documents between the Government or the Department or 
Militia and Defence, or any member thereof, or any one acting for or on its behalf, and 
the Sutherland Rifle Sight Company, or any one acting for or on its behalf, relating to 
the purchase of rifle sights or any other materials. Presented 26th June, 1908— Mr. 
Worthington Not printed. 

227. Return to an order of the Senate, dated 18th June, 1908, showing the tonnage entered 
at St. John, N.B., and Halifax, N.S., for the years 1905, 1906 and 1907. Also the value 
of imports for the same years at St. John, N.B., and Halifax, N.S., and also the value 
of exports for same year from St. John, N.B., and Halifax, N.S. Presented 7th July, 
1908.— Hon. Mr. Domville Not printed. 

50 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Continued. 

228. .Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th July, 1908, for a copy of a 
memorandum hy Major General P. H. N. Lake, C.B., C.M.G., Inspector General, upoa 
that portion of the Report of the Civil Service Commissioners, 1908, which deals with 
the Military Administration of the Militia. Presented 13th July, 1908. — Sir Frederick 
Borden Printed tor distribution. 

229. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, showing the 
population of each town, village or other place in Canada, in which any public building 
has been erected at the expense of Canada since 1st January, 1897, or for a ipublic 
building in which any public money has been voted, expended or appropriated since 
that date, together with a statement of the amount voted, expended or appropriated 
in each case, the total cost of each such building, the estimated total cost of any such 
building not yet completed, the purpose of each such building in each instance, the cost 
of the annual maintenance and upkeep thereof ; and so that the said statement shall 
show the information aforesaid by division of the said towns, villages or other places 
in the following classes: Those having a population not exceeding 2,000, 3.C00, 4,000. 
5,000, 6,000, 7,000, 8,000, 9,000, 10,000; also giving the names of all other towns and vil- 
lages in Canada of each of the said classes in which nc such public buildings have been 
erected up to the present time. Presented 13th July, 1908 —Mr. Borden (Carletonj. 

Xut printed. 

230. Return to an address of the Senate, dated 2nd July. 1908 - .1. The names of 
all senators and members of the House of Commons who have been appointed to office 
of emolument during the years 1896-7-8-9, 1900-1-2-3-4-5-6-7 and 8. 2. The name of th* 
office to which each senator and member was appointed. 3. The salary attached to each 
office. Presented 14th July, 1908. — Hon, Mr. Landry Not printed. 

231. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 10th February, 190S, for a copy of 
all petitions, letters, correspondence, reports, documents, papers, and other informa- 
tion in relation to the granting of a license in the year 1905 to E. H. McLennan and G. 
A. Redmond, both of River John, Nova Scotia, for the erection of a factory and to fish 
lobsters, with the date of such license. Presented 16th July, 1908. — Mr. McLean 
(Queen's) Not printed. 

231a. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 23rd March, 1908, for a copy 
of all correspondence, telegrams, petitions, orders in council, applications for licenses, 
in possession of the Government or any member or official thereof, respecting the 
granting of lobster fishing and packing licenses in Piince Edward Island for the yeai - 
1904, 1905, 1906 and 1907-8, and the report of the inspectors thereon. Presented 18th 
July, 1908. — Mr. Martin (Queen's) Not piinted. 

232. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th December, 1P07, showing: 
The amounts paid by the various departments of the Government since July, 1896, for 
sites for the following purposes, respectively: (a) court houses; (b) Royal Northwest 
Mounted Police purposes; (c) jails or penitentiaries; (d) armouries; (e) post offices; (f) 
Daminion lands office; (g) land titles offices; (h) customs offices; (t) inland revenue; (;> 
weights and measures; (k) other Dominion Government purposes, in the following 
villages, towns or cities, respectively: Winnipeg, Brandon, Regina, Moose jaw, Medicine 
Hat, Lethbridge, Calgary, Macleod, Cardston, Pincher Creek, Red Deer, Lacombe, 
TVetaskiwin, Edmonton, Battleford, Prince Albert, Saskatoon, Yorkton and Dauphin. 
Presented 17th July, 1908. — Mr. McCarthy (Calgary) Not printed 

233. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 30th March, 1908, for a copy o 
specifications, tenders, contracts, orders in council, extension or renewal of contract- 
in connection with Quebec Harbour improvements in 1903, and subsequently; ; 

all letters, correspondence and memoranda in connection therewith: and also a state- 
ment of the sums of money paid on account of the work in and subsequent to 

Presented 17th July, 1908.— Mr. Lennox Not printed 

51 



7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908 



CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Concluded. 

234. Copy of a telegram from the Canadian Manufacturers' Association relative to the 
woollen industries, and Sir Wilfrid Laurier's reply thereto. Presented 18th July, 190S, 
by Sir Wilfrid Laurier : • • . Not printed. 

234«. Correspondence, &c, from the Canadian Manufacturers" Association relating to the 
woollen industries in Canada. Presented 20th July, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier. 

Not printed. 

235. Eeturn to an order of the Senate, dated 6th May, 1908, calling for copies of all corres- 
pondence with the Department of Inland Eevenue and officers, referring to analysis of 
fertilizers and for the decision of the department on questions raised during /the 
yeais 1906, 1907 and 1908, to date. Presented 18th July, 1908.— H on. Mr. Domville. 

Not printed. 



7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a A. 1908 

CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION" 

1908 

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 
VOL. II 

POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT. 
PRIVY COUNCIL OFFICE. 
PUBLIC HEALTH. 
PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT. 
RAILWAYS AND CANALS DEPARTMENT. 
TRADE AND COMMERCE DEPARTMENT. 
AUDITOR GENERAL. 
SUPERINTENDENT OF INSURANCE. 
CIVIL SERVICE ASSOCIATION. 
CIVIL SERVICE ASSOCIATION OF WESTERN CANADA. 

Pages 769 to 138? 

PRINTED BY ORDER OF PARLIAMENT 




OTTAWA 

PRINTED BY S. E. DAWSON, PRINTER TO THE RING'S MOST 
EXCELLENT MAJESTY 

1908 
[No. 29a— Vol. 11—1908] 



7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a A. 1908 



TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION. 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 

Witnesses who Appeared before the Commission, and were Examined; also 
Memorials and Statements Submitted by Witnesses. 

Board of Civil Service Examiners — 

Dr. A. D. DeCelles, General Librarian of Parliament 1 

Dr. John Thorburn 11 

Dr. John C. Glashan 28 

Department of the Secretary of State — 

Jos. Pope, C.M.G., I.S.O., Under Secretary of State 40 

Memorandum from Mr. Pope 48 

Department of Agriculture — 

George F. O'Halloran, Deputy Minister of Agriculture 51 

Memorandum from the Registrar of Trade Marks, Copyrights, &c 69 

Memorandum from Patent Office 76 

Department of Customs — 

John McDougald, Commissioner of Customs 83 

Henry McLaughlin, Surveyor, Montreal 102 

Memorandum from delegates, Custom House, Montreal Ill 

William Drysdale, Assistant Appraiser, Montreal 114 

Joseph Zepherin Corbeil, Appraiser, Montreal 115 

Robert Smeaton White, Collector, Montreal 117 

F. Alfred St. Laurent, Express Department, Montreal 131 

Captain W. H. Carter, Surveyor, Quebec 133 

Delegates with Capt. Carter — 

E. Beaudet, Chief Clerk, Quebec. 

A. Gaumond, Appraiser, Quebec. 

J. G. Watters, Appraiser, Quebec. 

Col. L. N. Laurin, Chief Landing Waiter, Quebec. 

W. E. Edge, Check Clerk, Quebec. 

L. M. Vallerand, Preventive Officer, Quebec. 

J. A. Belleau, Clerk, Quebec. 

J. Fullerton, Examining officer. 

Colonel Joseph B. Forsyth, Collector, Quebec 139 

J. B. St Amant, Clerk, Quebec 144 

Memorial from Customs Officers, Quebec 145 

Letter from J. A. Belleau, Preventive Officer, Quebec 146 

Letter from E. Beaudet, Acting Chief Clerk, Quebec 146 

Letter from Pierre Hamel, Clerk, Quebec 147 

Letter from Placide Langlois, Acting Preventive Officer, Quebec 148 

Memo, from Collector, Quebec 149 

Letter from Charles Pageau, Examining Officer, Quebec 150 



iv ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1903 
Department of Customs — Continued. 

Letter from L. G. Faguy, Assistant Bookkeeper, Quebec 151 

Letter from F. Wood Gray, Asst. Tide Surveyor and Preventive Officer. . 152 

Letter from J. Bell Forsyth 152 

Dr. Smith, Windsor, Ont 152 

J. R. McCaffry, Chief Clerk, Toronto 157 

Alex. Patterson, Jr., Appraiser, Toronto . . . 161 

F. T. Pattison, Secretary, Petition from the Officers of the Customs Service 

of the Province of Ontario 162, 163, 164 

Report of a Meeting of the Customs Mutual Benefit Association, Canada. . 164 

Memorial from the Custom Service of the Dominion of Canada 165 

Memorial from the Custom Service west of Lake Superior 167 

Letter from S. J. Westman, Asst. Hardware Appraiser 168 

Memorial from the Ports of Vancouver, Victoria, Nanaimo and New West- 
minster, B.C 163 

Memorandum of the Out-door Staff of the St. John- Staff (Customs) . . . . 171 
Memorandum of the Appraisers and Clerks of the St. John, N.B., Custom 

Staff 172 

Letter from James McKay, Collector of Customs, Port of St. George, N.B. . 174 

Thomas Scott, Collector of Customs, Winnipeg, Man 175 

Department of Finance — 

T. C. Boville, Deputy Minister 180 

T. O. Boville, Deputy Minister 208 

T. C. Boville, Deputy Minister, Statement 213 

J. G. Ridout, of the Asst, Receiver General's Office, Toronto 216 

Memorandum from the Asst. Rec. General, D. Creighton, Toronto 221 

Deputation representing the Labourers and Charmen in connection with the 

Government Buildings in Ottawa 223 

Delegates — 

R. H. Maveetey. 
Rich. Berthiaume. 
Jean Savary. 
Martin Watson. 
Robt. Wimperis. 

Statement from Labourers and Charmen in connection with the Govern- 
ment Buildings in Ottawa 225 

Petition from the Charwomen in the employment of the Government of 

Canada 225 

Geological Survey — 

A. P. Low, Director of Geological Survey 227 

Statement from A. P. Low . • • 235 

Memorandum accompanying statement , 23? 

Secretary of the C.S.C. acknowledging receipt of above 239 

Memorandum from Hugh Fletcher 240 

Memorial from the Technical Officers of the Geological Survey Dept. . . . 242 

Department of Indian Affairs — 

Frank Pedley, Dep. Sup. General of Indian Affairs 24? 

Memorandum from Frank Pedley 263 

Jas. A. J. McKenna, Asst. Indian Com. for Manitoba and the N. West. . 264 

Memorandum from J. A. J. McKenna 275 

Memorandum from Gordon J. Smith. Supt. Six Nations 276 



TABLE OF CONTENTS v 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Department of Inland Revenue — 

W. J. Gerald, Deputy Minister -"- 

Memorandum from Deputy Minister 295 

Dr. Anthony Freeland, Collector of Inland Revenue, Ottawa 297 

Petition from the Officers of Inland Revenue (Excise Branch), Montreal. . 310 

Memorandum from Inland Revenue Officers, Montreal 313 

Statistics from Inland Revenue Officers, Montreal 311 

Petition from Officers of the Inland Revenue, St. Hyacinthe 319 

Petition from the Temperary Officers at Montreal 319 

Petition from the Asst. Inspectors of Weights and Measures. Division of 

Montreal 320 

Statistics, monthly expenses, W. L. Ross, Montreal 321 

Letter from Michael Hughes 322 

Letter and statement from A. Aubin 322 

P. X. J. A. Toupin, Collector of Inland Revenue, Montreal 323 

John David Fox, Accountant 323 

John David Fox, Accountant 325,326.325 

F. X. J. A. Toupin (resumed) 324, 325, 326, 328, 332 

William Oaven, Dep. Collector of Inland Revenue, Montreal 336 

J. 0. Bousquet, First-class Exciseman. Montreal '. 339 

Dr. Louis Victor Benoit, Coll. of Inland Revenue, St. Hyacinthe 312 

David Joseph Brennan, Special Class Officer 316 

John Eckford Gow, Special Class Exciseman, Joliette 319 

Joseph Olivier Chalus, Inspt. of Weights and Measures, Montreal 352 

Joseph A. Daoust, Asst. Inspt. of Weights and Measures, Montreal 359 

Etienne Boudet, Asst. Inspt. of Weights and Measures, Montreal 361 

Jean Paschal Morin, Inspt. of Weights and Measures, St. Hyacinthe 362 

M. Hughes. Excise Office, Montreal 361 

J. B. A. LaRue, Dep. Collector Class B, Quebec 366 

Chas E. Roy, Inspt. of Weights and Measures. Quebec 369 

Letter from Chas. Dupont Hebert, Three Rivers 372 

Statement from Dr. C. J. Rinfret, Dist. Inspector, Quebec 373 

Letter from Dr. C. J. Rinfret 373 

Letter from A. T. Gravel, Three Rivers ". . . . . 374 

Memorandum from the Excise Officers of the Inland Revenue, Quebec. . . . 375 
Letter from Paul Parent, Asst. Inspector and Caretaker. Weights and 

Measures, Quebec 375 

Dr. C. J. Rinfret (evidence) 375 

D. Arcand (evidence) 379 

Xazaire Levasseur, Inspt. of Gas and Electric Light, Quebec 350 

Memorandum from Xaz. Levasseur 382 

Thos. Alexander, Coll. of Inland Revenue, London, Ont 353 

Thos. Alexander, Coll. of Inland Revenue. London. Ont., representing the 

Collectors 383.351 

J. H. Kenning, Windsor. 

J. B. Powell, Guelph. 

George Rennie, Stratford. 

Jas. McSween, Windsor. 

J. O'Donohue, Brantford. 

Memorial from the Officers of the Excise Branch, Out-side Service, in 

Western Ontario 384 

W. R. Frankland, Collector, Toronto 337 

W. C. Strattqn, District Inspector, Toronto 391 

J. H. Kenning. Inspector of Distilleries 393 

Thos. Alexander, Collector Inland Revenue, London 395 



vi ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Department of Inland Eevenue — Continued. 

J. B. Powell, Collector Inland Eevenue, Guelph 396 

W. F. Miller, Collector Inland Eevenue, Hamilton 398 

Thos. Alexander, Collector Inland Eevenue (recalled), London 401 

J. H. Kenning, Collector Inland Eevenue (recalled), Windsor . . 402 

E. C. Jamieson, Toronto, Chief Officer, general distillery, Gooderham & 

Worts 403 

Memorial presented by E. 0. Jamieson 405 

Statement— Gooderham & Worts' distillery 407 

Donald McPherson, Special Class Exciseman, Hamilton 40S 

Statement 409 

Letter from G. A. Boutellier, Officer in Charge, Hiram Walker & Sons, Ltd., 

distillery 411 

Wilbur Henderson, Deputy Collector, Toronto 412 

Letter on behalf of Dy. Coll. Special Class A.. (Sgd.) W. Henderson and 

W. A. Thrasher 414 

W. J. Hayward, Inspector of W. & M., London 415 

E. J. Milligan, Asst. Inspector of W. & M.. Toronto, memorial and evidence. 417 

A. T. Freed, Inspector of W. & M., Hamilton 413 

Letter (Sgd) W. G. Hayward, from Inspectors and Asst. Inspectors of 

W. & M., Toronto 420 

Statement, E. J. Milligan, Asst. Inspector, et al 422 

D. McPhee, Inspector Gas and Electric Light, Hamilton (memorial and 

evidence) • 423 

A. F. Nash, Inspector Gas and Electric Light, London 426 

Gas and Electric Inspection Service Petition. (Sgd.) D. McPhee 429 

Letter (Sgd.) J. K. Johnstone, Inspector of Gas 431 

Letter (Sgd.) D. McPhee, Inspector of Gas 432 

Letter, J. K. Johnstone, Toronto; A. F. Nash, London 432 

Letter (Sgd.) H. G. Eoche, Inspector of Gas 433 

Dr. Barrett, Inspector Inland Eevenue, Winnipeg 435 

Letter from Dr. Barrett, Inspector Inland Eevenue, Winnipeg 444 

Ormond Higman, Chief Electrical Engineer. Ottawa 445 

Ormond Higman, memorandum .> 450 

Department of the Interior — 

W. W. Cory, Deputy Minister 451 

W. W. Cory, statements 478 

Letter, Frank Nelson 492 

N. B. Sheppard, Clerk, Lands Patent Branch 492 

Letter, N. B. Sheppard 498 

P. A. Begin, Draughtsman 500 

Letter (Sgd.) N. B. Sheppard, et al 503 

Patrick Doyle, Immigration Agent, Quebec 504 

Patrick Doyle, statements 509 

Edmund Valin and P. Charest, Quebec, Guardians of Immigration 510 

Dr. J. P. Lavoie, Quebec 511 

L. Stein and J. P. Stafford, Quebec 511 

J. Obed Smith, Commissioner of Immigration. Winnipeg 513 

Department of Justice — 

E. L. Newcombe, Deputy Minister, statement and evidence 525 

Memorandum re Penitentiary Branch 546 

Lt.-Col. A. P. Sherwood, Com. and Supt. of Dominion Police 548 

George W. Kennedy, Constable 555 

Deputation representing Kingston Penitentiary: Eev. Father McDonald, 

E, A. Caughey, C. S. Wheeler, M. P. Eeid, P. M. Beaupre 559 



TABLE OF CONTENTS Vll 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Department of Justice — Continued. 

R. A. Caughey, Asst Supt. of Binder Twine Factory 559 

P. M. Beaupre, Trade Instructor 565 

M. P. Reid, Keeper 569 

C. Wheeler, Guard 572 

Rev. Father McDonald, Roman Catholic Chaplain 573 

Requisition re Staff of Subordinate Officers 580 

Requisition re Chaplains Kingston Penitentiary 581 

Letter, Rev. A. W. Cooke, Protestant Chaplain 582 

Letter, M. J. Kennedy, Messenger 583 

Letter, W. S. Hughes, Accountant and Clerk 583 

Memo. D. O'Leary, Warden 584 

Department of Public Printing and Stationery — 

Dr. S. E. Dawson, C.M.G., King's Printer "". 585 

R. Belanger, Proof Reader, Printing Bureau 593 

Letter, Proof Readers (Sgd.) R. Belanger et al 598 

J. C. Shipman, Foreman 600 

John Munrb, Foreman 605 

Memorial of the Foreman's Association, Govt. Printing Bureau 608 

Deputation representing Pressmen, Govt. Printing Bureau : J. C. Trow- 
bridge, Pressman ; E. J. Pearce, Pressman 611 

Deputation representing Printers, Bookbinders and Finishers, Govt. Printing 

Bureau, memorial submitted 614 

James Firth, C. E. Clendinnen, Secy. Ptg. Bureau Employees Protective 

Association 616 

Petition 618 

Department of Labour — 

W. L. Mackenzie King, C.M.G 620 

W. L. Mackenzie King, C.M.G., statement 635 

Department of Marine and Fisheries — 

Lt.-Col. F. F. Gourdeau, Deputy Minister 639 

Lt.-Col. F. F. Gourdeau, statement 655 

Bruno St. Pierre, Third-class Clerk 658 

(Sgd.) Bruno St. Pierre, Petition 660 

Charles A. LeBel, Asst. Agent M. & F. Dept., Montreal 662 

Wm. Laurie, Inspector of Steamboats, Montreal 677 

Letter, Wm. Laurie, Inspector of Steamboats, Montreal 681 

Capt. James Riley, Montreal, Supt. of Pilots, Examiner of Masters and 

Mates, &c 682 

John Uriah Gregory, I.S.O., Quebec 686 

F. F. Payne, Secretary of Meteorological Service, Toronto 693 

Memorial of the Meteorological Service 696 

Department of Militia and Defence — 

Colonel Eugene Fiset, Deputy Minister 699 

Colonel Eugene Fiset, letter inclosing draft of a Militia Order about to be 

issued re preparation of estimates, 1908-9 727 

Major-General Lake, Chief of General Staff 735 

Joseph La Rochelle, attached to the Dominion Arsenal, Quebec 757 

Employees Dominion Arsenal, statement 759 

Letter, Civilian Members of the Staff of the R.M.C., Kingston, Ont. . . . 760 

Royal Northwest Mounted Police — 

Lieut.-Col. Frederick White, C.M.G., Comptroller of N.W.M.P 761 

Lieut.-Col. Frederick White, C.M.G., Comptroller of N.W.M.P., statement. 768 



viii ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Post Office Department — 

Statement number of employees Inside Service, &c, &c . . . 769 

Dr. R. M. Coulter, Deputy Postmaster General 773 

John Purcell, Railway Mail Clerk, Ottawa Division, 787 

Letter (Sgd.) John Purcell, on behalf of the Railway Mail Clerks, Ottawa 

Division ■ 792 

Statement, John Purcell, on behalf of Railway Mail Clerks, Ottawa Division, 

increased cost of living ; • . . 794 

Francis G. Allen, Clerk, Ottawa Post Office 798 

Statement, cost of living 805 

Wm, Henry Pennock, First-class Clerk, Ottawa Post Office 815 

Wm. Henry Pennock, letter 826 

M. A. Dupuis, of the International Money Order Exchange Office 827 

Letter, employees International Money Order Exchange 828 

Walter Rowan, Chief Clerk and Superintendent of Money Order Branch. . 829 

Amable Emery Spenard, Letter Carrier, Ottawa (memorial and evidence) . . 837 

Michael Fagan, Letter Carrier, Ottawa 845 

James W. Ross, Letter Carrier, Ottawa 846 

Memorial of Letter Carriers, Ottawa Post Office 849 

E. Barcelo, Superintendent Montreal Post Office 851 

Memorial, employees Montreal Post Office 859 

Theophile Avill Giroux, of Montreal Post Office Staff 882 

Alfred Jacques, Supt. of Letter Carriers Montreal (memorial and evidence). 883 
Jeremiah Coffey, of Montreal Post Office Staff (memorial re night work, 

and evidence 887 

Wm. Fleming, of Porters Staff, Montreal Post Office 892 

Edmond Beauchamp, Montreal Post Office 893 

Thomas Callaghan, Montreal Post Office 893 

J. P. Chillas, Asst. Inspector P. O. Dept., Montreal Division 894 

Memorial, Asst. P. 0. Inspectors, Montreal 902 

Ulderic Clermont, of Inspection Staff, Montreal 904 

Ulderic Clermont, memorial 906 

Joseph Lallier, President Railway Mail Clerks' Association, Montreal. . . . 907 

Alphonse Leblanc, Railway Mail Clerk, Montreal District 912 

Charles Wm. Caudlish, Montreal District • . . 914 

Letter on behalf Railway Mail Clerks (Sgd.) Jos. Lallier and Z. Raymond. 915 
Letter (Sgd.) J. D. Anderson, Railway Mail Clerk, T. DeLamadeleine, 

Montreal 916 

Octave Z. Talbot, Supt. Railway Mail Service, Quebec 917 

Letter, Supts. Railway Mail Service (Sgd.) E. P. Bent, Halifax: O. 

Talbot, Quebec 923 

F. M. McNaughton, Chief Clerk, Railway Mail Service, Quebec 924 

Memorial, Clerks in Offices of Supts. of Railway Mail Service 925 

Louis E. Simard and J. P. Martineau, on behalf of Railway Mail Clerks, 

Quebec 929 

Louis E. Simard 929 

Louis E. Simard, statement 931 

Memorial of Railway Mail Clerks of Canada 932 

Wilfrid Albert Boulet, Supt. of Letter Carriers, Quebec 938 

D. L. Auge, Letter Carrier. Quebec 939 

Memorial of Letter Carriers, Quebec 943 

Letter, of Letter Carriers, Quebec (Sgd.) P. Alph Pelletier 944 

P. E. Lane and J. J. Battle, deputation from Clerks of City P. O., Quebec, 

memo, submitted 946 

P. E. Lane, Clerk. Quebec -- 946 

Letter. J. J. Battle, Quebec 951 



TABLE OF CONTENTS ix 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Post Office Department — Continued. 

Sir "Wilfrid Laurier's answer to delegates of the City Post Office of Canada 

at Ottawa, June, 1906 ; 952 

Reply of Postmaster General to the Post Office Clerks' delegation, Wednes- 
day, November 7, 1907 952 

Letter, Ulric Vezina, Clerk, Quebec 953 

G. E. Evanturel and F. Kindellan, representing P. 0. Staff, Quebec. . . . 953 

A. Bolduc, Quebec Post Office Inspector 957 

Deputation from Federated Association of Letter Carriers and the Toronto, 

Hamilton and London Association 960 

Alexander McMordie presents memorial, supplementary memorial 973 

R. Guy, President of Federated Association of Letter Carriers (memorial 

and evidence » ■ • • 974 

M. M. Empey, memorial of London Association of Letter Carriers 976 

Robt. A. Locker presents memorial from Letter Carriers not members of 

Federated Association of Letter Carriers 979 

Memorial of Letter Carriers, Toronto 982 

E. Rolston, Letter Carrier, Hamilton 983 

W. W. Leak, Toronto 984 

W. Hammond, Toronto 985 

W. J. Mankey, Toronto 955 

G. Adams. Petition (Sgd.) W. H. Bythell, C. G. Adams and J. Philipps, 

Toronto 9S6 

Thomas Ball, Mail Transfer Agent, Toronto 987 

James F. Harper, Mail Transfer Agent, Hamilton 989 

James F. Harper, memorial 991 

James F. Harper, letter 992 

J. McL. Hartley, Railway Mail Clerk, Toronto (memorial and evidence) . . 993 

W. G. Jessop, Railway Mail Clerk, Toronto (memorial and evidence) .... 1002 

Ross. Cuthbert Clark, Railway Mail Clerk, Toronto 1009 

Letter, Albert Jones, Mail Clerk, Belleville 1011 

J. S. Boddy, Clerk, Toronto '. . 1013 

J. S. Boddy, memorial, Clerks, Toronto P. 1017 

G. N. Fraser, Clerk, Toronto 1018 

G. N. Fraser, memorial, City Dept. Sorters doing duty on railway trains. . 1018 

Albert Edward Crate. Toronto 1019 

F. W. Davies. Toronto 1019 

A. Carrother. sr.. Third-class Clerk, London 1021 

John A. "Webber, Hamilton (evidence and memorial) 1023 

A. Carrother (recalled), London 1025 

G. B. Sweetman, First-class Clerk, P. O. Inspt's Office. Toronto 1025 

James Henderson, P. 0. Insp., Toronto Division . 1029 

James Carter, in charge of Dead Letter Branch, Toronto 1032 

George Ross, Chief P. O. Supt. Canada 1034 

George Ross, memoranda 1038 

Alex. H. Reed, Messenger, Railway Mail Service, Toronto 1045 

J. B. Allan, Petition from P. O. employees. Vancouver, B.C 1047 

Garrett O'Connor, Railway Mail Clerk, B. & G. R. P. 0. Letter 1050 

Memorial, Inside Staff Letter Carrier's Branch of Winnipeg P 1052 

Letter, J. S. B. Benzie, Checker or Insp. of Letter Carriers, Winnipeg. . . . 1053 

Letter, Sidney J. "Wood, Registration Dept.. Winnipeg 1055 

Letter, Sidney J. Wood, Registration Dept., Winnipeg 1055 

Memorial of Letter Carriers, Winnipeg 1056 

Letter, Jos. Dixon. Clerk. G.P.O.. "Winnipeg 1059 

Letter, Frank R. Sutton. G.P.O.. Winnipeg 1060 

Letter, J. E. ISTorris. Railway Mail Clerk, Winnipeg 1060 



x ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Privy Council Office — 

Statements. Rodolphe Boudreau, Clerk of P. C 1063 

F. K. Bennetts, Asst. Clerk 1065 

Public Health— 

Dr. Frederick Montizambert, I.S.O., Director General of Public Health.. 1071 

Statement 1°" 9 

Dr. Joseph D. Page, Supt. of Detention Hospital, Quebec 1082 

Dr. Joseph D. Page, enclosing copies of correspondence with Dr. Logan, 

Shore Inspector for Dominion Line, Liverpool 1086 

Public Works Department — 

A. Gobeil, I.S.O., Deputy Minister 1088 

A. Gobeil. I.S.O., statement 1108 

J. J. O'Meara, Elevator Staff 1110 

J. J. O'Meara, statement, Elevator Staff 1113 

Alex. K. McDonald, representing the various Mechanical and Labouring 

Branches, P. W. Dept 1114 

W. L. St. Pierre, representing the various Mechanical and Labouring 

Branches, P. W. Dept 1119 

Arthur Beaulieu, representing the various Mechanical and Labouring 

Branches, P. W. Dept . 1121 

A. R. McDonald, representing the various Mechanical and Labouring 

Branches, P. W. Dept. (recalled) 1121 

A. R. McDonald, representing the various Mechanical and Labouring 

Branches, P. W. Dept., statement 1122 

' Nelson Smith, Foreman Electrical Staff 1124 

Mr. Mahon, Electrical Staff 1127 

Thomas Wensley, Engineer in charge of Parliament Buildings 1127 

John Thompson, Engineer in charge of the Printing Bureau 1133 

Wm. Graham, Second Engineer in charge of the Printing Bureau 1134 

Telesphore Dugal. Fireman at Western Block 1135 

Thomas Whalen, Fireman at Eastern Block 1137 

Thomas Whalen, statement, East Block, Govt. Heating Staff 1142 

Wm. Hill, Fireman in charge of the Supreme Court Building 1143 

Wm. Hill. Fireman in charge of the Supreme Court Building, statement. . 1146 

C. Desjardins, Clerk of P. W. Dept., Montreal 1148 

Employees of P. W. Dept., Montreal, Petition and Letters 1149 

O. Eenaud, Elevator Man, City Post Office, Montreal 1154 

Joseph Dutrisac, Messenger, Post Office Building, Montreal 1154 

Phileas Beland, Clerk of Works, Quebec 1155 

David P. Kennedy, Engineer of the Quebec Examining Warehouse 1157 

A. DeCary, Resident Engineer, Quebec 1159 

Jean Roy, Caretaker, P. O. Building, Quebec 1165 

A. Samson, Dock Master of the Levis Graving Dock 1166 

Letter (Sgd.) H. R. Gorman, Lockmaster at River du Lievre Lock 117G* 

Letter, A. Le Bourdais, Supt. of Telegraph Service, Magdalen Islands. . . . 1171 
Deputation of Caretakers, Firemen. Elevator Men, Watchmen and Cleaners 

employed by P. W. Dept. at Toronto — 

Thomas J. Enright 1172 

William Murphy 1174 

Thomas Letray 1175 

T. Jones 1176 

Wm. Gribble 1176 

Memorandum presented by T. J. Enright 1177 

Letter (Sgd.) W. P. Murphy, Toronto, representing Elevator Men 1178 



TABLE OF CONTENTS xi 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Public Works Department — Continued. 

James Eustace, Bridge Tender on Burlington Canal 1179 

Letter (Sgd.) Bod'k McLeod, Caretaker Dominion Public Building at 

Guelph 1180 

Railways and Canals Department — 

M. J. Butler, Deputy Minister 1181 

M. J. Butler, statement and memos 120S 

Joseph Giroux, Bridge Master, Atwater Bridge, Lachine Canal 1212 

Joseph Giroux, statement on behalf of Bridge and Lockmen, Lachine Canal. 1215 

Pierre Drolet, of Lachine Canal Staff 1216 

John H. Conroy, Lockmaster, Lachine Canal 1218 

Mr. St. Denis, Lockmaster, Lachine Canal 1221 

P. Duchesne, Bridge Master. Lachine Canal 1221 

Edward Paradis, employee, Lachine Canal 1222 

Victor Geoffrion, MP., Vercheres 1222 

George Bourgouin, Collector, Lachine Canal 1223 

Letter (Sgd.) George Bourgouin, Collector, Lachine Canal, and statements. . 1229 

J. A. Thesseault, Collector of Canal Tolls, Lachine. 1230 

T. David, employee, Montreal, letter 1237 

Julien Brunet, employee, Lachine, letter 1237 

J. B. Brunet, employee, Montreal, letter 1238 

Philodelph Cousineau, employee, Lachine, letter 1238 

Letter (Sgd.) John N. F. Hillman, on behalf of Welland Canal Lock and 

Bridge Tenders' Association 1239 

David Pottinger, I.S.O., General Manager, Government Railways 1240 

David Pottinger, I.S.O., statements 1257 

Trade and Commerce Department — 

W. G. Parmelee, I.S.O., Deputy Minister 1260 

W. G. Parmelee, I.S.O., statements 1270 

George Roy, Chief Inspector of Hides. Quebec 1275 

George Roy, memorandum 1277 

Office of Auditor General — 

John Fraser, Auditor General 1279 

John Fraser, Auditor General (recalled) 1306 

Insurance — 

Wm Fitzgerald, Superintendent of Insurance 1320 

Wm. Fitzgerald, memorandum 1324 

Deputation representing Civil Service Union — 

Messrs. A. G. Kingston, President; J. O. Doyon, Vice-President; J. L. 

Payne, Secretary • 1326 

A. G. Kingston, President C. S. Assn 1328 

M. D. Grant, Chief Clerk, Insurance Branch 1332 

R. H. Coats. First-class Clerk, Dept. of Labour 1334 

J. O. Doyon, Vice-President C. S. Assn. . . 1336 

J. Lambert Payne, Secretary C. S. Assn 1337 

Memorial of the Civil Service Association 1338 

Appendix ' A ' 1364 

Appendix <B' 1375 

A. G. Kingston (recalled) 1376 

Supplementary memorandum re cost of living 1376 

Petition, J. K. Barrett, H. M. Sutherland, W. J. Gow. C. E. Kavanagh. 

members of Committee resident in Winnipeg 1380 

Memorial of the Civil Service Association of Western Canada 1381 



7-8 EDWARD VIJ. 



SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 



A. 1908 



CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION. 



NAMES OF WITNESSES ARRANGED ALPHABETICALLY 



Name. Page. 

Adams, G 986 

Alexander, Thomas 395-401 

Allen, Francis G 798 

Auge, D. L 939 

Arcand, D .'i79 

Ball, Thomas 987 ' 

Barcelo, E 851 

Barrett, Dr. J. K 435 | 

Beaupre, P. M 565 

Beauchamp, Edward 893 

Beaulieu, Arthur 1120 

Begin, P. A 500 

Belanger, R 593 

Beland, Phileas 1155 

Benoit, Dr. Louis Victor 342 

Bennetts, F. K 1065 

Boddy, J. S 1013 

Bolduc, A 957 

Boudet, Etienne 361 

Boulet, Wilfrid Albert 938 

Bousquet, J. 339 

Boville, T. C 180 

Brennan, David Joseph 346 

Butler, M. J .. 1181 

Bourgouin, George 1223 

Callaghan, Thomas 893 

Candlish, Charles William 914 

Carter, Capt. W. H 133 

Carter, James 1032 

Carrother, A 1021 

Caven, William 336 

Caughey, E. A 559 

Charles, Joseph Olier 352 

Charest, P 510 

Chillas, J. P 894 

Clark, Ross Cuthbert 1009 

Clermont, Ulderic 904 

Coffey, Jeremiah 887 

Conroy, John H 1218 

Corbeil, Joseph Zepherin 115 

Cory, W. W 451 

Coulter, Dr. R. M 773 

Crate, Albert Edward 1019 

359 

585 

1019 

1 



Daoust, Joseph A.. .. 
Dawson, S. E., C.M.G. 

Davies, F. W 

DeCelles, Dr. A. D.. . 



DeCary, A 1159 



Name. Page. 

Desjardins, C 1148 

Doyle, Patrick 504 

Doyon, J. A 1336 

Drolet, Pierre 1216 

Drysdale, William 114 

Dugal, Telesphore 1135 

Duchesne, P 1221 

Dutriasac, Joseph 1154 

Enright, Thomas J 1172-1175 

Empey, M. M 976 

Eustace, James 1179 

Evanturel, G. E 953 

Fagan, Michael 345 

Firth, James 614 

Fiset, Eugene 699 

Fitzgerald, William 1320 

Forsyth, Joseph B 139 

Fleming, William 892 

Frankland, H. R 387 

Fraser, John 1279 

Fraser, G. N 1018 

Freeland, Dr. Anthony 297 

Freed, A. T 418 

Geoffrion, Victor, M.P 1222 

Gerald, W. J 278 

Giroux, Joseph 1212 

Glashan, Dr. John C 28 

Giroux, Theophile Avila 882 

Gourdeau, F. F 639 

Gobeil, A., I.S.0 1088 

Gow, John Eckford 349 

Grant, M. D 1332 

Graham, William 1134 

Gregory, John Uriah 686 

Gribble, William 1176 

Guy, R 974 

Hammond, W 985 

Harper, James F 989 

Hartley, I. McL 993 

Hayward, W. J 415 

Henderson, Wilbur 412 

Henderson, James 1029 

Higman, Ormond 445 

Hill, William 1143 

Hughes, M 364 

Jamieson, R. E 403 

Jacques, Alfred 883 



tiv ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 
NAMES OF WITNESSES ARKANGED ALPHABETICALLY— Concluded. 



Name. Page. 

Jessop, W. G 403 

Jones, T 1176 

Kennedy, George W 555 

Kennedy, David P "1157 

Kenning, J. H 393-403 

King, W. L. Mackenzie, C.M.G.. .. 620 

Kingston, A. G 1328-1376 

Lake, Major General 735 

Lane, P. E 946 

Larue, J. B. A 366 

Lallier, Joseph 907 

Laurie, William 677 

LaRoehelle, Joseph 757 

Lavoie, Dr. J. P 511 

Leak, W. W 984 

LeBel, Charles A 662 

Leblanc, Alphonse 912 

Levasseur, Nazaire 380 

Letray, Thomas 1175 

Low, A. P 227 

Mahon, — 1127 

Manhard, L. E 981 

Maukey, W. J 985 

Maveetey, R. H 223 

Miller, W. F 398 

Milligan, R. J 417 

Morin, Jean, Pascal 362 

Montizambert, Dr. Fredk., I.S.O.... 1071 

Munro, John 6$5 

Murphy, William 1174 

McCaffrey, J. R 157 

McDonald, Rev. M 573 

McDonald, A. R 114-1121 

McDougald, John 83 

McKenna, James A. J 264 

McMordie, Alexander 960 

McNaughton, F. M 924 

McLaughlin, Henry 102 

McPhee, D 423 

McPherson, Donald 408 

Nash, A. F 426 

Newconibe, E. L 525 

O'Halloran, George F 51 

O'Meara, J. J 1110 

Page, Dr. Joseph D 1083 

Paradis, Edward.. 1222 

Parmelee, W. G., I.S.0 1260 

Patterson, jr., Alexander 161 

Payne, F. F 693 

Payne, J. Lambert 1337 

Pedley, Frank 248 



Name. Page. 

Pearce, E. J 611 

Pennock, William Henry 815 

Pope, Joseph, C.M.G., I.S.0 40 

Pottinger, David, I.S.0 1240 

Powell, J B 396 

Purcell, John 787 

Reed, Alexander H 1045 

Reid, M. P 569 

Renaud, 1154 

Eidout, J. G 216 

Eiley, James 682 

Rinfret, Dr. C. 1 375 

Rolston, E 983 

Ross, James W 846 

Ross, George 1034 

Rowan, Walter 829 

Roy, Charles E 369 

Roy, Jean 1165 

Roy, George 1275 

Samson, A 1166 

Scott, Thomas 175 

Sheppard, N. B 492 

Sherwood, A. P., C.M.G 548 

Shipman, J. C 600 

Smith, J. Obed 513 

Smith, Nelson 1124 

Smith, Dr. J. A 152 

Spenard, Amable Emery 837 

Simard, Louis E 929 

St. Denis, — .. : 1221 

St. Pierre, Bruno 658 

St. Pierre, W. L 1119 

St. Amant, J. B 144 

St. Laurent, F. Alfred 131 

Stafford, J. P 511 

Stein, L 511 

Stratton, W. C 391 

Sweetman, G. B 1025 

Talbot, Octave Z 917 

Thesseault, J. A 1230 

Thompson, John 1133 

Thorburn, Dr. John 11 

Toupin, Francois X. J. A 323 

Trowbridge, J. G 609 

Valin, Edmond 510 

Webber, John A 1023 

Wensley, Thomas 1127 

Whalen, Thomas H37 

Wheeler, C 527 

White, R, S 117 

White, Frederick, C.M.G 761 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 



769 



Deputy Postmaster General, 

Ottawa, May 20, 1907. 

Dear Sir, — I beg to enclose herewith the information asked for in your letter of 
the 14th instant. 

Yours truly, 



(Sgd.) E. M\ COTJLTEE, 

Deputy Postmaster General. 



Thos. S. Howe, Esq., 

Secretary, Civil Service Commission, 
The Senate, Eoom No. 2, Ottawa. 



Statement showing the number of employees in the Post Office Department, inside 
service, on June 30, 1892 and 1906, divided into classes, and the total amount of 
salary paid. 



Chief clerks 

1st class 

2nd class 

Jr. 2nd class 

3rd class 

Messengers and packers . 
Temporary employees . . . 



June 30. 1892. 



Number. 



121 
31 
59 



269 



June 30, 1906. 



Total 
Salary. 



i Number. 



15,900 
17.500 
52,990 



90,460 
14,280 
23,300 



10 
17 
41 
127 
99 
18 
54 



366 



Total 
Salary. 



22,000 
29,250 
55,100 
121,840 
59,840 
11.372 
27,307 



Number of letter carriers in 1892. 
Number of letter carriers in 1906. 



466 

738 



MEMORANDUM. 

Number of post offices in operation year ended June 30, 1892.. .. 8,288 

Number of post offices in operation year ended June 30, 1906.. .. 11,141 
Number of letters passing through post office year ended June 

30,1892 ' 102,850,000 

No. of letters passing through the post office year ended June 

30, 1906 323,644,000 

Revenue in 1906 $5,933,342 53 

Revenue in 1892 2,652,745 79 

An increase of 123 per cent. 

Expenditure in 1906 $4,921,577 22 

Expenditure in 1892 3,316,120 03 

An increase of 48 per cent. 
29a— 49 



770 



ROYAL COMMISSION OH THE CIVIL SERVICE 



7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 
MONEY OEDER TRANSACTIONS. 

ORDERS ISSUED. 



Year. 


Number. 


Value. 


1892 




919,996 
2,178,549 


S cts. 
12,825,701 42 


1906 




37,355,673 37 







ORDERS PAID. 



Year. 



1892. 
1906 



Number. 



Value. 



8 cts. 

No record kept. 12,266,238 91 
1,869,925 32,809,872 74 



Total business in 1892. 
Total business in 1906 



825,000,000 
70,000,000 



POST OFFICE SAVINGS BANKS. 



Deposits 

Withdrawals 

Balance due depositors 



June 30, 
1892. 



7,056,002 00 

7,230,839 14 

22,298,401 65 



June 30, 

1906. 



S cts. 

10,805,458 00 
12,324,529 26 
45,736,488 51 



ROYAL COMMISSION OH THE CIVIL SERVICE 



771 



SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 



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29a — £9£ 



772 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 
POSTAGE STAMPS. 



— 


No. of Pieces. 


Value. 


Issue, 1906 

„ 1892 


387,908,230 
151,282,800 


S cts. 

7,068,927 85 
3,356,740 60 






Increase 


236,625,430—156% 


3,712,187 25—110% 



Note — This increase of 110 per cent. In the value of the postage stamp issue, occurred 
notwithstanding the reduction on the 1st January, 1899, of the domestic letter rate of postage 
from 3 cts. to 2 cts. per ounce. 

Statement showing number of mail services on stage routes, and the cost thereof, 
in existence on June 30, 1892, and June 30, 1906, respectively. 



Year Ended. 



No. of 
Stage Mail Services 



June 30, 1892 

„ 30,1906 

Increase 

Percentage of increase 



4,500 
7,400 

2,900 



65% 



Total Cost 
Per Annum. 



781,243 60 
1,121,412 29 



340,168 69 



44% 



Statement for Civil Service Commission re Mail Service by Railway and Water. 



On June 30, 
1S92. 



On June 30, 
1906. 



Actual track mileage of railways conveying mails 13,303 miles. 2C 274 miles. 

Miles travelled per annum while conveying mails 14,118,021 miles. ;23,672,855 miles. 

Number of railway companies performing service for 

f^l Department 

Amount expended for conveyance of mails by railway. 

Steamboat companies performing service for P.O. 

Department 



44 
SI, 106, 950. 71 



60 



67 
$1,545,685 27 



59 



Increase. 



6,971 miles. 
9,554,834 miles. 

23 

§438,734.56 



No contracts are made with any of the railway companies for the conveyance of 
mails, the usual rate of payment being 8c. per mile travelled by postal car, and 4c. 
per mile travelled by baggage car, except in the case of the Intercolonial, Prince Ed- 
ward Island and Grand Trunk Railways, and the main line and some of the branches 
of the Canadian Pacific Railway, which are paid at a track mile rate per annum. 

(Sgd.) B. M. ARMSTRONG, 

Controller. 



ROYAL COMJJISSIOX ON TEE CITIL SZRVICE 77£ 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 



Ottawa, Wednesday, May 22, 1907. 

The Royal Commission on the Civil Service met this morning at 10.30 o'clock. 
Present : — Mr. J. M. Courtney, C.M.G., Chairman. 

Mr. Thomas Fyshe, Montreal, and 

Mr. P. J. Bazix, Quebec. 

Dr. R. M. Coulter, sworn and examined. 

By the Chairman: ■ 

Q. You are the Deputy Postmaster General? — A. Yes. 

Q. How long have you been in that position? — A. Since August, 1897. 

Q. On June 30 last you had at headquarters, including temporaries, 366 em- 
ployees? — A. Yes. , 

Q. As against 269 on June 30, 1892 ?— A. Yes. 

Q. The number of post offices in operation in the same period ran up from 8,200 
to 11,100?— A. Yes. 

Q. And the number of letters that passed through the post offices ran up from 102 
millions to 323 millions ? — A. Yes. 

Q. The revenue which in 1892 was $2,600,000 has run up to about $6,000,000 '.— 
A. Yes, nearly six millions. 

Q. And the expenditure which in 1892 amounted to $3,300,000 has run up to 
$4,900,000 or about $5,000,003 ?— A. Yes. 

Q. That is to say, you have now a surplus of $1,000,000 instead of a deficit which 
you had before of $700,000?— A. We really had a deficit of $1,250,000. 

Q. You have turned a deficit into a surplus? — A. Yes. 

Q. And the rate of postage has been reduced from three cents to two cents? — A» 
Yes. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. They are far from doing as well as that in the United States? — A. They have 

a deficit of $16,000,000. 

■ 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Owing greatly to the influx of immigration, the money orders sent abroad have 
run up from $919,000 to $2,178,000 ?— A. Yes. 

Q. The total money orders issued have run from about $13,000,000 to over $37,000,- 
000?— A. Yes. 

Q. And the orders paid have run from over $12,000,000 to $22,000,000?— A. Yes. 

Q. That is to say, the total business of money orders for the fifteen years has run 
from $25,000,000 up to $70,000,000?— A. Quite correct. 

By Mr. Fyshe: , 

Q. I see that you contemplate establishing a postal route through to the Arctio 
circle? — A. Yes, we are giving a service now as far as Fort Macpherson. 

Q. That cannot pay? — A. No. The Yukon service does not pay either. 

By the Chairman: 
Q. In the post office savings bank I find that in 1892 there were 231,000 transac- 
tions as against 339,000 in 1906?— A. Yes. 



774 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. And the balances have run up in that period from $22,000,000 to $45,000,000? 
—A. Yes. 

Q. There are many branches in your department. Taking first the postal stores, 
they include all the forms sent out for stationery, the mail bags, stamping material, 
letter boxes and letter carriers' uniforms? — A. Yes. 

Q. The uniforms include the ordinary uniforms, great coats, boots and caps? — A. 
Yes. 

Q. In 1892 you issued 21,000.000 of printed forms, &c, and in 1906 47,000,000 
odd?— A. Yes. 

By Mr. Fyshc : 

Q. Where do you get the supply of these forms? — A. From the Printing Bureau. 
Q. Do you think that is more economical than to have outside contracts for 
them? — A. That is not a question I have given much consideration. 

By Mr. Bazin : 

Q. You supply your employees with these uniforms? — A. Yes. 

Q. How many a year do you give them? — A. Two uniforms each year — one in 
summer and one in winter. 

Q. Complete? — A. Yes. 

Q. Is that entirely free to them, or do you charge them a certain percentage? — A. 
Free. We give them two complete uniforms during the year, one for summer and 
One for winter; boots (twice per year); helmets and caps; oilskin capes, waterproof 
coats, leather leggings, and in some parts of the country rubber boots as protection 
for wet weather. For winter, great coats, fur caps, and in some places fur collarettes 
and chamois vests. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. The number of postage stamps issued has run up from 151.000,000 in 1S92 to 
over 387,000,000 in 1906 ?— A. Yes. 

Q. And the value from $3,200,000 to over $7,000,000 ?— A. Yes. 

Q. Or an increase of 110 per cent? — A. Yes. 

Q. The number of mail services has increased from 4,500 to 7,400? — A. That is 
right. 

Q. Or an increase of 65 per cent? — A. Yes. 

Q. Looking over the Civil Service List, I find that altogether the inspectors' 
offices and city post offices, including letter carriers and all that class, you have about 
2,300 employees?— A. Yes. 

Q. That is excluding the rural post offices? — A. Yes. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. I suppose yours is the most numerous of all the public departments ? — A. Yes, 
I think it is. We are pretty nearly one-third of the Civil Service. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. What is your salary?— A. $4,000. 

Q. The nations of the world occasionallv meet together for postal conferences? 
—A. Yes. 

Q. And you occasionally have to go to these conferences? — A. Yes. 

Q. You went to one in Rome two years ago? — A. Yes. 

Q. And now and again you go to Washington to make certain arrangements? — 
A. Yes. 

Q. Outside of these do you ever have a holiday ? — A. I have had no holiday in the 
ten years that I have been here. You may call these holidays, but they involve a great 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX TEE CIVIL SERVICE 775 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

deal of work. I do not think I have been off duty for pleasure but once in the ten 
years. 

Q. Do you think that is right to yourself? — A. No. 

Q. Have you broken down under the work? — A. I broke down once and was away 
on sick leave. There is never a time when we are not a little pressed. 

Q. Yours is a huge machine, grinding day in and day out? — A. Yes, a treadmill. 

Q. All your employees, temporary and permanent, have passed the Civil Service 
examinations ? — A. Yes. 

Q. How do you find out when a new clerk is wanted? — A. Generally by a report 
from the chief clerk and the head of the branch, and after investigating that, I make 
the necessary recommendation to the Minister. 

By Mr. Fyslie: 

Q. Do you not appoint a man yourself? — A. No. 

Q. Is not that a weakness? — A. This involves the question as to whether appoint- 
ments shall be made as a matter of patronage vested in the Government or if men shall 
be appointed by competitive examinations. I am of the opinion that considerable could 
be said from both standpoints, but might say that so far as my experience in the 
department is concerned, any viciousness, if such exists, has been modified by the 
character of the Ministers under whom I have served. I have never yet had a man 
appointed that I did not approve of, or whom the departmental officers reported as 
unfit. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Is there not constant pressure to have men appointed ? — A. Yes, and it is a 
constant fight to keep them out. 

Q. Your people are graded like a regiment — you have 10 chief clerks, 17 first-class, 
41 second-class, 127 junior second-class, 99 third-class, 18 messengers and packers and 
54 temporary employees \ — A. Yes, that is right. 

Q. What hope has a boy coming into the department of 18 ever to get beyond a 
second-class clerkship ? — A. The department is so large and the number of prizes so 
few that some difficulty has been found in securing the right stamp of men to enter 
the department. In the old days when the cost of living was lower and the prizes 
outside in business were fewer, a much superior class of men naturally entered the 
service, but under the present conditions where prizes in outside business are greater 
than prizes in the department, and the prizes greater in number and the rewards 
higher, men are not inclined to enter the service, and we are having increasing difficulty 
in procuring men of the right calibre. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Is there any essential difference between the first, second and third-class clerks ? 
— A. Oh, yes. 

Q. What is the difference? — A. I would not make a man a first-class clerk unless 
I considered that he could take charge of other men and plan and direct the work of 
his branch. 

Q. Don't they rise from third to second and from second to first just by the lapse 
of years ? — A. No, not with me. 

Q. So that it really does not necessitate essential difference of work? — A. I would 
place in the ranks of third and junior second-classes men able to do routine work; in 
the second-class men who have shown their ability to do something more than routine 
work, and have proven themselves to be reliable and intelligent in connection with the 
duties assigned to them, and who have evinced a higher interest in such work than the 
men referred to as fit for the third and junior second-classes. In the first-class, I would 
place men, as stated above, who would be able to take charge of other men and plan or 
direct the work of their branch, and who might be eligible for the higher offices of the 
department. 



776 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 
By the Chairman: 

Q. In your department there are only 27 chief clerks and first-class clerks out of 
a total of 366? — A. Yes. The number is altogether too small. Of course, there are 
more men deserving, but we have not the first-class clerkships to give them. 

Q. It is like a regiment graded down, and each grade has its own specific duties? 
—A. Yes. 

Q. A man does not go on doing the same service all up the line? — A. Oh, no. 

Q. And the prizes are so few that you are at a disadvantage in getting good men 
to join the service? — A. That is decidedly the case. 

Q. Every clerk comes in on probation? — A. Always. 

Q. Do you ever throw a man out? — A. Oh, yes. We try a man for three or four 
months, sometimes for five or six months, and if he is found wanting we unhesitatingly 
ask for his dismissal. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. You cannot dismiss him yourself ? — A. No, but 1 have never had any trouble 
in having it done. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. There is an age limit ? — A. Yes, 35 years. 

Q. But they generally come in at the minimum of 18 or 20 years? — A. Yes, from 
18 to 20 is what we aim at. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Have you any special system by which they are selected ? Do you apply to any 
of the schools or colleges? — A. No. All appointments are made on the nomination 
of the Postmaster General, who takes the responsibility therefor. 

Q. Seeing that the prizes are so few, don't you think that the kind of people who 
would press to get in are apt to be third rate? — A. It is getting to be more so every 
day, because the prizes outside are becoming greater than the prizes inside. 

Q. In short, it is no career? — A. No, it is no career. 

Q. It seems to me that an ambitious man would rather select the work of a 
mechanical trade ? — A. There are some branches of mechanics that are much better 
paid than the Civil Service — no question about that. 

By Mr. Bazin: 
Q. Have you more applicants than you need? — A. Yes, but very often applicants 
of a very inferior order. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. I suppose one inducement they have to enter is the considerable salary to be- 
gin with? — A. No, they do not get a big salary to begin with. 

Q. How much?— A. $500. 

Q. It is not a big salary for a man of any experience, but it is quite a salary for 
a youngster? — A. But they go very slowly up at the rate of $50 a year, and in my 
opinion no person in the service can live and should be called upon to live on a salary 
less than $500 a year at the present cost of living. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Who are the officers in your department to whom the Civil Service Act does 
not apply? — A. There are none practically. 

Q. What is the difference between a controller of the railway mail service and the 
superintendent of the railway mail service ? — A. The controller is the man who has 
complete control of the whole railway mail service. The superintendents are district 
superintendents. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 777 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. They are appointed regardless of age or previous service ? — A. The superinten- 
dent must always be promoted from the service. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. And the controller? — A. He must be in the service, but not necessarily in the 
railway mail service. 

Q. What salary does the controller get? — A. $2,500. 

Q. And he supervises all the railway mail service? — A. Yes. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Do you report on the efficiency of a probationary clerk? — A. Always. 

Q. There are certain political appointments, such as city post masters and post 
office inspectors? — A. Yes. 

Q. They can be appointed without regard to age? — A. Yes. 

Q. As a matter of fact, they are political appointments? — A. They are political 
appointments. In the carrying out of the system, I have striven as far as possible 
that the inspectors should not be political appointments, and I may say that under the 
present Postmaster-General I have been very successful. 

Q. And under his predecessor too? — A. And under his predecessor too. We have 
appointed three men in the west every one of whom has been promoted from the 
service. So that I have been extremely lucky in my Ministers, all of whom have recog- 
nized promotion. 

Q. Come to the latest vacancy in a city postmastership, that is, Kingston — the 
post office became vacant ? — A. Yes. 

Q. In the papers it is stated that the patronage committee nominated some alder- 
man ? — A. I could not say. 

Q. Wns that alderman appointed? — A. An Alderman Stewart was appointed. 

Q. You have no direct dealings with the patronage committee? — A. No. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Isn't that bad ? — A. It might be, but in this case the appointment happens to 
be a good one. 

Q. How can it be a good appointment to a technical work of which the man has 
had no experience at all ? — A. When I say a good appointment, I am taking into con- 
sideration appointments usually made. This man, I understand, is a good business 
man, and he will learn the duties of the office. 

Q. How old a man is he? — A. I think between 40 and 50. 

Q. A failure in business, I suppose? — A. lSo, I think he has been a successful 
business man. 

Q. Then why does he want the appointment? — A. I could not say why; but he 
certainly shows signs of making a good postmaster. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Do you think it is worse in the case of inspectors? — A. Very much worse. I 
think the inspectors should not be political appointments, and they were not until a 
few years ago, when the Act was changed. I think they should be made more a matter 
of promotion solely. 

Q. Do you ever get applications from clerks who have resigned their positions to 
re-enter the service ? — A. I cannot say that I have had that experience, though I be- 
lieve it has occurred in the past. I do not think it does now. I have been losing my 
clerks. In the last ten yeas I have lost nine or ten first-class men who would not stay 
in the service — that is, here in Ottawa. 

Q. How is it in the west in the outside service? — A. In the west in the outside ser- 
vice we are losing good men constantly. We cannot hold them. 



778 ROYAL COMMISSION O.Y THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII.. A. 1908 
By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. That is quite marked in the commecial world — banks and other offices ? — A. I 
may say that these nine or ten men who have left us have done so practically in the 
last three years. In the western part of Canada we cannot hold our men at all. We 
are constantly training- new men, which is very disastrous to the service. We get a 
man and train him for a few months, and he works only until he can get another 
position. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. You examine railway mail clerks and clerks appointed to city post offices ( — A. 
Yes. 

Q. The railway mail clerk as to his ability to sort letters ? — A. Yes. 

Q. And as to the geography of the country '. — A. Yes. His work is practically on 
the car. 

Q. In sections 4ii and 17 of the Civil Service Act. it is provided that the head of 
the department shall promote, or after probation may reject. Would that not be better 
to be on the report of the deputy? Practically the law does not give you anything to 
say? — A. This, of course, leaves no discretion to the deputy minister at all if the 
ALinister chooses to promote without consulting him. My experience has been that in 
most cases I have been consulted in reference to any promotion that was to be made. 

Q. I think in your department the deputy minister has to recommend ? — A. Xot 
necessarily, although, as stated above, on most occasions I have been consulted. 

Q. With regard to the system of exchanges and transfers authorized by the Act. 
do you find many transfers in your department? — A. A good many. 

Q. You have such a wide department that it is necessary to transfer men inside 
and outside ! — A. We have constant applications from people. We are opposed to 
many transfers, and of course we suffer. The smaller departments have got some of 
our best men because the prizes and chances of promotion are much greater in a small 
department. That is one of our difficulties, that in a big department there are not so 
many prizes. 

Q. The only increment to these classes is $50 a year? — A. Ye-. 

Q. That is to say a chief clerk gets $50 and a messenger $50 '. — A. Yes. 

Q. Should there not be some difference? — A. I think there should be some differ- 
ence, considering the difference of responsibility. I am strongly of the opinion that 
an increase of $50 is no good to any man. Take a man who comes in at $500 a year. 
The chief difficulty that man has, and the chief difficulty we have in retaining him, is 
that no man can live in the city of Ottawa to-day on $500 a year, unless he lives in 
abject poverty. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. He cannot get board cheap enough? — A. Xo, and a great many of them are 
married men especially the messengers. I think in all cases the increases should be 
$100 until a man's salary attains $700 or $800. That is true also in the outside service, 
in the city post offices. The small increase is the cause of losing so many of our men. 
Stampers and sorters, and the class of men. must get $700 or $800 before they can live. 
Of course, in the Civil Service, I think the increases must be on a fixed basis on 
account of the pressure to which those in authority may be subjected. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Which only suggests that in each class there should be annual increases? — A. 
Yes. 

Q. And in that case also, should not the deputy head report ? — A. Yes, As a mat- 
ter of fact I do. 

Q. Do you ever stop a man's annual increase? — A. Oh, yes. 

Q. Do you ever reduce a man who has been promoted '. — A. Yes, we have reduced 
one or two. 



ROYAL COMMISSIOy OS THE CIVIL SERVICE 779 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 
By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. For what reason would you do that? — A. Where a man would not perform his 
work well, sometimes for drinking or neglect of duty or failure to show the ability for 
his position that we expected he would show. As a rule it has been either for careless- 
ness or drinking or something of that nature. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. You were saying that there was difficulty in getting men at the minimum of 
$500. If there was some latitude by which you could take new comers at any figure 
between $500 and $1,000, do you think it would be advantage I— A. Xo, I am not in 
favour of that. It would open the door to too much pressure. 

Q. You would have to take special votes for them { — A. Yes. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. I do not see why the political head should not want to divest himself of patron- 
age altogether? — A. With the men we have had as Postmasters General we have not 
had any friction. They have always been men of high character, anxious to do the 
best for the service. But if a weak man came in, this weakness might become appa- 
rent. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. If a clerk is appointed after May 1, his first increase comes only on July 1, 
twelve months? — A. Yes. 

Q. But in the case of inspectors or assistant inspectors it comes twelve months 
from the date of appointment \ — A. Yes. 

Q. Is there any reason for that '. — A. When the Post Office Act was amended by 
Sir William Mulock in 1903, affecting the inspectors and railway mail clerks, he 
changed it so that they became eligible for an increase at the expiration of the year. 
No special reason was given by him for so doing. 

Q. Would that be because the post office inspector was a political appointment \ — 
A. I could not say what the reason was. In a department the size of ours to have 
these increases coming twelve months from the time of appointment would add very 
materially to the departmental work. The appointments are so numerous and the in- 
creases necessarily so numerous that unless they come at a fixed date, they would be- 
come an almost constant source of consideration and would make it most difficult to 
keep track of the increases. It would involve a very material increase in the work of 
the department, as well as the Treasury Board and Council. Many mistakes would 
necessarily occur, whereas under the present system by giving increases on the first of 
each quarter, all increases are taken up four times a year and are attended to wholly 
without trouble and without mistake, and the experience under all Governments has 
been that it is to the mutual advantage of the service and the Government. 

Q. In section 92, provision is made for deduction of pay of any officer for 
absence which is not authorized or on account of illness. Do you ever deduct their 
pay? — A. Yes, very frequently. 

Q. Do you have monthly reports from your chief clerks '. — A. Yes. 

Q. And reports of daily attendance? — A. Yes. All absentees both on the inside 
and the outside service are constantly reported to me. 

Q. In an enormous department like yours, you have to have them? — A. \es. I 
have to wade through these every month. In our outside service, if we did not watch 
that, the drain through absentees would be enormous. 

Q. You strictly exact the deductions in pay for absences that cannot be accounted 
for? — A. Yes. 

Q. You have 54 temporary employees. Are they put on through political influ- 
ence? — A. I presume all appointments are made through patronage. I may say, how- 
ever in our department the staff is kept down to its absolute needs. We do not take 
people unless we have work for them. 

Q. Notwithstanding the increase in the work, you have reduced your tempor- 



780 ROYAL COMMISSION OX TEE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

aries from 59 to 54? — A. Yes, and a good many of these temporaries will be made per- 
manent as time goes on. 

Q. I suppose in your big department, you have to be very careful about tbe annual 
leave of absence? — A. Yes. 

Q. Is three weeks enough? — A. Well, I think it is. I think there is not much 
complaint. 

Q. In your department, a great deal of the work is purely mechanical and routine? 
— A. Yes, there is considerable work of a routine character, but there is a very large 
amount of the work of a higher technical character requiring close attention, good in- 
telligence and good ability. 

Q. The three weeks holidays strictly adhered to? — A. Yes. My own opinion is 
that you have a right to insist on a man taking his three weeks. I think the holiday 
is given for the benefit of the department rather than for the benefit of the individual. 
We find that the man who takes his holidays is the best man. 

Q. Have you suspended any? — A. Oh, yes, we suspend a great many of our people. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Among the outsiders or the insiders? — A. Among the outsiders, and I have 
suspended men inside. 

Q. On the whole, the clerks are a superior class to the letter carriers, for instance? 
— A. Yes. Taking my whole department, I will put my clerks against any body of 
men in Canada of the same order. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Have these suspensions always been for personal reason, on account of negli- 
gence or misconduct in the performance of their duties? — A. Yes, personal. 

Q. Not from any political desire to kick a man out ? — A. No. After a man enters 
our department we exclude considerations of politics altogether. — t 

Q. And when a promotion comes it makes no difference whether a man was 
appointed by the present Government or by the late Government? — A. No, and the 
records of our department will show that. 

Q. Do these suspensions often lead to dismissal? — A. My experience has been that 
with one or two exceptions in the last ten years I have been able to reform and make 
a good clerk of every man suspended. Firmness and kindness will accomplish it. In 
only one instance I think did we dismiss a man in the inside service. 

Q. Then a dismissal in your department is very rare ? — A. Very rare, that is, in 
the 'inside service. 

Q. And in the outside service ? — A. Not so rare. 

Q. They are dismissed for cause? — A. For cause, absolutely. No man need fear 
dismissal if he does his duty and behaves himself. 

Q. That is to say, it does not follow that dismissals are made for political reasons? 
— A. Never in the ten years I have been here have I seen one. 

Q. Although I suppose with the change of a government there are certain dis- 
missals of postmasters? — A. Yes, I suppose there are. But since I have been here 
these have been mostly the small postmasters — $10 or $20 men in the rural post offices. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. In the Kingston case, what would be the salary of the postmaster? — A It 
would depend on the revenue. 

Q. That is rather arbitrary, is it not ? — A. On the whole I am of the opinion that 
the scale works as well as any other system that might be devised. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. How many attendance books do you keep in your department? — A. We keep 
one in every branch. In the accountant's branch we have two. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CITIL SERVICE 781 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. Are these books brought to you every day? — A. Every morning. They are 
initialled by the chief clerk and then brought to me. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. How long has that been in force? — A. I found that system in effect when I 
came here. I think it has been in force 25 years. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Then you indirectly see that every man is at his duty ? — A. Yes. I watch that 
closely. 

Q. Do you perambulate the department every day? — A. Very often I go through 
the rooms, and I insist that the chief clerk shall go through the rooms and see that 
the people are at work, because you will occasionally finda man will sign the book and 
go out ; but on the whole my experience here has been that the conduct of the staff has 
been very creditable. We are a working department and have to be. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. All the outside men have regular uniforms { — A. The letter carriers — not the 
railway mail clerks or city sorters. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. What are the office hours? — A. From half past nine until half past four, with 
an hour for luncheon. 

Q. Is the hour for luncheon the same hour for all the staff? — A. Yes. They go at 
half past twelve and come back at half past one. 

Q. Then between half past twelve and half past one the department is dead* — A. 
Practically, although in certain branches where information may be needed for the 
public one man is retained to supply such information during the time the others are 
absent. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. That is like work — six hours a day? — A. Our work is largely accounting, and 

wlien a man works at that six hours, he is pretty well done out. Some of my men 
work ten or twelve hours. Some of the chief clerks rarely get out before six o'clock. 
I never get out before half past six myself. 

By the Chairman: 

Q._ If any one of the staff are wanted, they stay I — A. I think it is safe to say that 
all the leading men of my department stay till five or half past five and often till 3ix 
o'clock. 

Q. Some of your salaries are scheduled (reading) : ' The salary of a post office in- 
spector on appointment shall be $2,000, with increases of $50 per annum for six years 
and $100 per annum thereafter up to a maximum of $2,600.' Does that apply to all 
inspectors (■ — A. Yes, to all inspectors. 

Q. And the salary of an assistant post office inspector rises in the same way from 
$1,200 to $1,800?— A. Yes. 

Q. And that applies to all of them? — A. Yes. 

Q. What do you pay the post office inspectors when they go out on their rounds? — 
A. Just their actual expenses. 

Q. ATr. Griffin, who was 50 years in the postal service had the theory that it would 
be desirable to pay them less salary and more travelling expenses, because he argued 
that a certain inducement should be held out to a post office inspector, for example, in 
Ottawa, to turn out on a winter morning to go to Riviere De3ert? — A. That is the 
English system of payment. There was a per diem allowance here at one time, but it 
was abolished for some reason. 

Q. The English system is to pay rather reduced salaries, but good travelling ex- 
penses? — A. What they call poor salaries in England are a little better than our best. 



782 . ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

I do not think we have an inspector who it would not be safe to say is out three or four 
hundred dollars in travelling expenses — money which he had to spend, but could not 
put into his account. They have to swear to their bill ,and I can only allow them what 
tbey put in it. 

Q. Generally speaking, the English system is the best? — A. Possibly. 

Q. I suppose the chief towns of the man at Ottawa would be Arnprior and 
Almonte? — A. Yes, and also Cobalt and Haileybury. In a new country like British 
Columbia and the Yukon, where they have hard travelling, the work is hard on their 
clothing and hard on them in every way. A per diem allowance would be a boon. 

Q. You think something approaching the English system would be better? — A. I 
think something could possibly be done in that direction. The old per diem allowance 
was abused, I understand, but it should be possible to devise a scheme that would not 
admit of abuse. 

Q. Coming to the railway mail clerks, they receive on appointment $400 a year? 
— A. No, $400 and mileage — half a cent a mile for every mile travelled in tbe cars, 
and an additional allowance of half a cent per mile for every mile travelled between 8 
in the afternoon and S in the forenoon. 

Q. What would be the average earnings of a railway mail clerk? — A. $400 for his 
first six months and mileage, and after that $500 and mileage. The mileage will range 
from $200 to $700. 

Q. In Colonel White's time a railway mail clerk was sent to the penitentiary for 
stealing — have you had anything of that kind? — A. We had about a year ago a bad 
case of a man being sent to jail for stealing $10,000 of bank money going through the 
registered mails ; but as a rule the clerks are honest. 

Q. You do not think the initial salary is too big? — A. No. 

Q. It does not involve drinking and loafing habits? — A. No. I think our railway 
mail service is improving in the character of the men we are getting into it. 

Q. A registered letter can be traced all the way along? — A. From the time you 
get the receipt till the person to whom it is addressed gets it you can trace it from 
hand to hand. 

Q. What is the highest salary a railway mail clerk can attain to, when he becomes 
a chief clerk? — A. No. when he becomes superintendent, $1,S00. 

Q. There is only that one man over them all? — A. Yes. 

Q. A senior railway mail clerk travelling on a train gets how much? — A. $1,200. 

Q. What would his mileage be? — A. It would range from $200 to $700, with an 
average of from $300 to $400. 

Q. Once a railway mail clerk, always a railway mail clerk? — A. On the whole, 
yes. 

Q. They wear out quickly, owing to the constant travelling? — A. Yes, they do. 
We have to give them lay offs. A man does not go continuously on duty. He goes on 
for a day or two and then is off for 24 hours. The lay off ranges from 24 to 48 hours, 
according to the nature of the work. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. Would you say that these men have more nervous wear and tear than the 
ordinary railway conductor? — A. About the same. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. A junior railway mail clerk is a better man, as a rule, than the man at the 
top of the class ? — A. More active, yes. There is a good deal of nervous strain on them, 
and they are liable to accident, and the knowledge of this makes them nervous. 

Q. Formerly they were superannuated at the age of 50? — A. Not so much now. 
I think ours will run lip on the average to 60 years. 

Q. They will be pretty well worn out at 60? — A. Pretty well. 

Q. And that is owing to nervous strain ? — A. Nervous strain on the train. 

Q. Could there not be some way of diffusing them throughout the service? In 



ROYAL COMMISSION OH THE CIVIL SERVICE 783 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

England a railway mail clerk goes into the inspectors office I — A. I do not think tnat 
would work with us. "We have taken some into the railway mail superintendents office. 
Q. You do not think you could diffuse them throughout the service i — A. I have 
not given that consideration; but speaking offhand, I think there would be some diffi- 
culty. I have frequently sent a clerk from the office on to the road and taken a rail- 
way mail clerk into the office, and we have found that to work well. 

Q. Coming to city postmasters, the scale laid down in the Act was laid down in 
1882?— A. Yes. 

Q. The highest man is paid $1,000 ?— A. Yes. 

Q. So that no man in your service exceeds you in point of emolument ? — A. Xot 
now. They did for years. 

Q. Montreal and Toronto each sells $1,000,000 worth of postage stamps now? — 
A. Yes. Toronto is over the $1,000,000 mark, and Montreal of about $900,000. 

Q. Do you think the scale of graduation could be reduced '. — A. I am of opinion 
it should be revised. If the men who are getting the salaries in the big offices are not 
underpaid, certainly those in some of the other offices are overpaid. I think that scale 
should be subject to revision, particularly in the case of assistant postmasters. The 
maximum salary of an assistant postmaster is $2,000, and there are several assistant 
postmasters who, basing their salary on the revenue of their office, are getting the 
$2,000, and yet in the large offices, where the responsibility is much greater, the work 
much more arduous, the hours longer, and the duties require a much higher adminis- 
trative ability, they are also receiving only the $2,000. If these men in the larger 
offices are not underpaid, then most decidedly men in the smaller offices who are 
getting this amount are overpaid. My opinion in regard to assistant postmasters in 
large offices is that the scale should be overhauled and their salary increased. I do 
not wish to make comparisons, but an examination of the scale and of the duties 
required of the assistant postmasters will show very clearly the absolute inequality 
of the amount paid. It is absurd that the assistant postmasters of Montreal, Toronto 
and "Winnipeg should only be paid the same salary as many of the assistant postmasters 
of the smaller offices. I think the whole thing should be readjusted. 

Q. Have you anything to suggest regarding the salaries of clerks in the city post 
offices ? — A. Yes. I am of the opinion that the present schedule as arranged does not 
work out in the best interests of the clerks and should be re-arranged. 

Q. The clerks in the city post offices, the inspectors and the railway mail clerks, 
are all nominated by members ? — A. Yes. 

Q. You occasionally transfer a man from one part of the service to another ? — 
A. Yes. 

Q. Does not the member for the district who has the patronage take care of the 
promotions all the way up '. — A. My experience has been that once a man is in the ser- 
vice members are not inclined to interfere. Occasionally it has been tried, but an 
explanation of the departmental position that after appointment (which is regarded 
as patronage) all promotions must be made on seniority and merit, sufficed to stop all 
further pressure. 

Q. There was a ruling of the Treasury Board in 1S79 that the discovery that any 
one was using or attempting to use political influence was tantamount to asking for 
his resignation? — A. That is still in existence. 

Q. Has it ever been quoted to a clerk ? — A. Yes, but even when quoted to a clerk 
to-day, he is apt to be back at us to-morrow. I think the rule is nonoured in the 
breach rather than in the observance, but it is a good rule and should be enforced. 
Q. How far can a junior clerk in a city post office go? — A. Up to $1,200. 
Q. After how many years of service? — A. He comes in at $100 as a fourth class 
clerk, and goes up by annual increases of $50 to the maximum of this class, which is 
$700. He may then be promoted to the next class, the minimum of which is the maxi- 
mum of the class from which he has just been promoted, viz., $700. He goes up by 
increases of $50 to the next class of $800, and so on up to $1,200, at which the majority 



784 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

would stop. After that point has been reached a man must have special merit to 
warrant his being placed in a higher position. 

Q. In the city post offices is there a distinction of duties between a third class, 
a second class and a first class ? — A. Yes. First-class clerks are men put in charge 
of their fellow employees, have control under the chief officers of the organization and 
are responsible for the carrying out of the same; who plan and carry out the work, 
and are possessed of some initiative. 

Q. That might occupy 25 years ? — A. It may take a good long while; but where 
a man does his duty we shove him along. 

Q. But even in that case it would take 15 years? — A. Yes, if the routine was 
absolutely lived up to; but many men of merit are more rapidly promoted than that, 
but at the best promotion has been slower than it should be. 

Q. In the railway mail service, what necessity have you for the distinction of 
third, second and first class \ — A. That schedule respecting railway mail clerks is 
done away with; it is obsolete. 

Q. A man of 50 in the railway mail service, if he lasts that long, cannot get more 
than about $1,500 a year?— A. That is all. 

Q. Coming to the inspectors, an inspector of a division has five or six counties? 
— A. Yes. 

Q. How are subordinates in the inspectors' office appointed ? — A. The assistant 
inspectors are promoted from the service. 

Q. When a boy enters an inspector's office, who nominates him? — A. It is a 
matter of patronage as a rule. 

Q. How do you arrange the districts in which there are half a dozen counties? — 
A. The Members of the Commons are asked for nominations. 

Q. And they agree among themselves, do they ? — A. I am unable to say as to what 
method is pursued in obtaining these nominations. When a vacancy occurs, the Min- 
ister is communicated with, and a nomination is obtained by him and returned to us. 
Q. Is the number of persons employed in your department out of proportion to 
the increase of work? — A. No. We are hard at work all the time. 

Q. The Civil Service Examiners have to look into three qualifications : char- 
acter, health and age. Have you had any person foisted on you whose character did 
not turn out to be proper? — A. No, I cannot say that I have. 

Q. What about their health? — A. We insist on them coming in in good health. 
Q. And if they manage to pass the examiners and get in on a fluke? — A. We 
expose it if we can. 

Q. What is your idea of a system of superannuation? — A. I think the abolition 
of the system of superannuation was the greatest blow that was ever struck at the 
service. I may say that to-day we have men who are helping to carry the burden of the 
department on their shoulders, men with ability whom we could not afford to lose, and 
the only reason we are able to hold them (in view of their training and their oppor- 
funities outside the service) is that they are on the superannuation list. Since its 
abolition the new appointments have not the same inducement to rjemain in the ser- 
vice, and when opportunity offers outside, they leave without any hesitation whatever. 
I am strongly of the opinion that if the service is to be kept up to its present standard, 
the superannuation system should be restored. 

Q. When the returns come in from the city post offices and the larger outside 
offices, where there is a money order system and a savings system, do you distribute 
the accounts between the money order branch and the accountants branch ? — A. Yes. 

Q. You have no objection to the members of the Commission going over your de- 
partment? — A. No. I shall be very glad to have them do so. 

Q. Are all the offices of your department now in the same building? — A. All ex- 
cept the savings bank branch and the dead letter office, which are in the city post office 
building. These two branches are those that we could place outside most easily. The 
room for the present staff is absolutely inadequate for the departmental work, with- 
out taking into consideration the question of growth at all. 



R07AL COMMISSION 01/ THE CIVIL SERVICE 785 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. There is a good deal of overcrowding yet?— A. A great deal. 

Q. You do not get so many desirable men to enter the service now as formerly? 
- — A. Oh, no. 

Q. And you get more women? — A. More women. 

Q. What proportion of women have you got in the department to the men? — A. I 
could not tell that off-hand. 

Q. The women are herded together and sometimes with men?— A. They all work 
together. 

Q. Are the women in separate rooms?— A. No, they are all together. 1 may say 
that I have never seen anything to indicate that men and women cannot work to- 
gether in perfect concord. Their associations in our department are of the happiest 
kind. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. What is your opinion generally as to the desirability of employing women? — 
A. For certain branches of our work they are good up to a limited point. 

Q. They would not be good to control or manage?— A. No. Very rarely do you 
get one with that power. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. And of course you cannot be stern with them as you can with men? — A. I do 
not suppose that is necessary. 

Q. They require the privilege of their sex ? — A. Yes, they do, and you have to 
give them to them. 

Q. What is the salary of a letter carrier? — A. He comes on at $1.25 per day. 

Q. Sundays included? — A. No. They are only paid for the days when on duty. 
After a month that is increased to $1.50 ; after two years it is increased to $1.75 ; 
after two more to $2, and after two years more to $2.25. Then he is allowed holidays 
of two or three weeks in addition, and he is given a bonus of $20 at the end of the 
year, if regular in attendance and efficient in his work. 

Q. Do they get tips or Christmas boxes from the public? — A. A good deal al- 
though that is against the rules. 

Q. A letter carrier after eight years' service, if paid for Sundays, would get $730 
& year? — A. $726, with bonus and everything. 

Q. With two suits of clothes, caps, boots, overcoats and oilcloth? — A. Yes, and 
free transportation on street cars. 

Q. And his qualifications are ability to read and write and do his work smartly? 
—A. Yes. 

Q. Any intelligent labouring man could do that? — A. Yes, any intelligent labour- 
ing man could do it. I think the early stage of the work is perhaps a little trouble- 
some. I think it would be well perhaps to start them at $1.75. The cost of living has 
gone up, and I have found some distress on the part of the letter carriers when they 
first go on; but after some years in the service they do pretty well. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. Are they married men? — A. Generally they are. If a letter carrier shows 
ability beyond being a letter carrier, he has a chance of being appointed a clerk. 

By the Chairman: 
Q. But a man who is appointed by political influence as a letter carrier, with a 
knowledge of reading and writing, and physical strength, in eight years, besides his 
uniform gets $726 a year? — A. Yes. 

By Mr. Bazin: 
Q. And the pay is the same in every city? — A. Yes. 
29 a— 50 



786 ROYAL COMMISSION' O.Y THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 
By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. I suppose they are usually as intelligent as ordinary mechanics? — A. Oh, yes. 
They are a pretty intelligent body of men. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. What do packers and sorters get? — A. They start atfthe same rate as the letter 
carriers. 

Q. Of course they get no uniform? — A. No. 

Q. One would think it would require more intelligence to pack up books and mail 
bags than to deliver letters? — A. The letter carriers do a good deal of intelligent work 
in the delivery of registered letters. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. Have you had any case of a letter carrier being assaulted? — A. No. We have 
never had a case of that kind. There is a good deal of healthy respect for the law, 
and men hesitate about attacking a man in uniform, because they know that all the 
resources of the department would follow them up. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. What is the walk of a letter carrier, how many miles does he travel in a day? 
— A. I cannot tell you that offhand, but I will give you that information. 

Q. You are extending the system? — A. We are extending it to all towns of 12,000 
people and $20,000 of revenue. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. In the smaller towns do you allow the postmasters to take the revenue and 
employ their own staff? — A. We allow them forty per cent of the revenue, and out of 
that they employ their own staff. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. How do you establish a city post office? In Ontario towns become cities by 
Act of the Legislature? — A. I think they do. 

Q. When a place becomes a city, does the post office become a city post office? — 
A. No. We go by the revenue and the business done. 

By Mr. Bazin: 

Q. Are the country post offices under the supervision of the nearest city, or under 
the supervision nf Ottawa? — A. They are under the supervision of the inspector of 
the district. 

Q. For instance, is Pontiac under the supervision of the Quebec post office? — A. 
No, it is under the supervision, owing to contiguity of territory, of the post office in- 
spector of the Ottawa district, These districts, as they approach the border of Pro- 
vinces, are arranged according to geographical contiguity and convenience rather than 
on provincial lines. 

The Chairman. (To the witness.) — You will send in a memorandum of any ob- 
servations you wish to make. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Have you any check on the cost of stationery supplies ? — A. Oh, yes. We have 
an official called the controller of postal stores, and he has a regularly organized staff 
and watches the prices of everything. 

Q. I am curious to know whether the printing department can supply these forms 
that you use as cheaply as you could get them by contract from outsiders? — A. I think 
we are getting them pretty low now. 



ROYAL COMMISSION "X THE CIVIL SERVICE 787 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. Bearing the cost of supplies by the Printing Department with the cost from 
outside stationers, in mind, would it not be highly proper to take tenders from Eng- 
land I — A. I would have to be put in the Cabinet before I could answer that question 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Are your stores ever audited by the Auditor General ? — A. Xot that I know 
of, more than the general accounts. 

Q. Do you know, roughly, the value of the stores you have on hand? — A. I da 
not. That can only be ascertained by taking stock. This is done yearly. 

Q. Under the law the stock of the stationery office is checked every year by the 
Auditor General. Would it not be desirable, in continuation of the auditing of the 
purchases that a stock audit should also be made by the Auditor General? — A. Wo 
would not object to that. Of course, our postal stores accounts are all audited. 

Q. In 1892, when we had the last Civil Service Commission, Mr. Matheson. then 
Superintendent, of the Post Office Saving Banks, spoke of the danger arising from the 
fact that hundreds of thousands of pass books of depositors were unprotected. What 
is the state of your records now ? — A. We have sheet metal casings for all our records 
All our books are kept in a fire-proof vault, which runs from the bottom to the top of 
the building, and they are absolutely safe. 

Q. For the convenience of your department, you do a lot of mapping? — A. Yes 

Q. Mapping is done by a dozen different departments. Would it not be more 
convenient to get the mapping all done together ? — A. Looking at it rough-shod 1 
should say yes : but there is this about our department that has to be borne in mind 
We want everything in a hurry, and for that reason we like to keep every thing undeT 
our own hands. The only fear we have is that in a department where they did that 
work we might have to wait for weeks for a map. and it would retard our work. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. Would not a little foresight as to your wants provide for that ? — A. We have to 
change our mail routes frequently. I think the principle is an excellent one for every 
department but ours. If it could be guaranteed that the men when we wanted them 
would be put at our disposal, I would not object. 

By Mr. Bazin: 
Q. You have to map every route that a mail goes through '. — A. Oh, yes. I would 
not have any objection to such a scheme so long as I knew that a man would be put 
on our work when we needed him. 



Ottawa, June 20, 1907. 
The Royal Commission on the Civil Service met this morning at 10.30 o'cleck. 

Present: — Mr. J. M. Courtney, C.M.G.. Chairman. 
Mr. Thomas Fyshe. Montreal, and 
Mr. P. J. Bazix, Quebec. 

Mr. John Purcell, sworn and examined. 

By the Chairman : 
Q. You are a railway mail clerk in this division '. — A. Yes. 
Q. You were appointed in 1SSS ? — A. Yes. 
29a— 501 



788 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. You have consequently served 19 years ? — A. Yes. 

Q. What class are you in now? — A. The classes are abolished. 

Q. What is your salary now?— A. $1,000. 

Q. You get some mileage in addition? — A. Yes. 

Q. How many days in a week are you out? — A. Four days. 

Q. What is your run? — A. From Pembroke to Ottawa and return, 105 miles, on 
the Canadian Pacific Railway main line. 

Q. Do you go out on the same train, leaving at the same hour each time? — A. 
Yes, leaving Pembroke at 7.07 in the morning, arriving at Ottawa at 10.30, leaving 
Ottawa at 5 p.m., arriving Pembroke at 8.25. 

Q. How many hours are you at work on the day you are on duty ? — A. From 6.45 
to 10.45 a.m. 

Q. That is, 15J hours you are on the road ? — A. Not on the road all the time, but 
either on the road or here. 

Q. The next day you have a day off? — A. Yes. 

Q. The next day you go on that same run again? — A. Yes. 

Q. How long have you been on this Ottawa-Pembroke route? — A. Ten years. 

Q. Doesn't it get on your nerves ? — A. Yes, very much. I am two days on and one 
day off. I run four days and am off two days in the week, that is not including 
Sundays. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. The train does not run on Sundays ? — A. No. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Then you are four days a week on and two days a week and the Sunday off? 
—A. Yes. 

Q. The railway mail clerks are a distinct class? — A. Yes. 

Q. Once a railway mail clerk always a railway mail clerk ? — A. Yes. A man might 
get to be superintendent. 

Q. You have nearly fifty railway mail clerks in the Ottawa division? — A. Yes. 

Q. In that district there is only one superintendent? — A. Yes. 

Q. Then it is a chance of one in fifty that one of you may become superinten- 
dent ?-^A. Yes, when the vacancy occurs by death. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. Is not that a political appointment? — A. No. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Then beyond the superintendent what is the higher grade? — A. There is the 
controller of the railway mail service; he is the head of the branch. 

Q. There is a superintendent in each district? — A. Yes. 

Q. And at the top of all there is a controller? — A. Yes. 

Q. How many railway mail clerks are there altogether? — A. About 450 in the 
Dominion. 

Q. And there is one controller for the 450? — A. Yes. 

Q. There would be only one superintendent in the Montreal district where 
perhaps the number of railway mail clerks would be double the number in the Ottawa 
district? — A. Yes, and there may be less in other districts. 

Q. But each district has a superintendent, and over all the superintendents is the 
controller? — A. Yes. 

Q. Once a boy is appointed as a railway mail clerk there is no chance under our 
system of his getting out of the railway mail clerk service? — A. No. not under the 
system. 

Q. What is the highest pay a railway mail clerk gets? — A. $1,200 and mileage. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 789 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. What will the mileage amount to on the average for the highest appointment?' 
—A. We have no $1,200 men. 

Q. Suppose you had $1,200 what would be the average mileage you would get? — 
A. I would draw about $240 a year. 

Q. That is to say, in the ordinary course of things, if you got to the top of the 
railway mail clerks you would draw $1,440 a year ? — A. I would draw that on the run 
I am now on. 

Q. Your run is 105 miles? — A. 105 miles each way — 210. 

Q. On the run between Ottawa and Toronto, there is a man leaving at night from 
each end? — A. Yes. 

Q. Then each man only goes half way? — A. Xo. Half the men are furnished by 
the Toronto district, and the other half by the Ottawa district, and they run in paire 
right through. 

Q. I suppose a man goes up one day and comes back the next? — A. He goes up 
one night and conies back the next night. 

Q. And the other man leaves Toronto one night and goes back the next night? — 
A. Yes. 

Q. We are to understand that a man who gets to the top of the tree as a railway 
mail clerk will get $120 a month as his salary and mileage ? — A. Yes. There are four 
runs in this division that pay a larger mileage than that — the Ottawa and Tort 
Williams (two runs), the Ottawa and Toronto, and the Ottawa and Soo ; but they 
do a lot of running for it and the general complaint is that there are not enough men. 
Q. When an appointment is made to a vacant railway mail clerkship, it is made 
at $400 and the mileage? — A. Yes. 

Q. How long does it take a man to get into the work? — A. To get the distribu- 
tion done so as to be able to take ninety-nine and a-half per cent of the Province of 
Ontario, it would take the average man from two years to two years and a half. 

Q. All Tailway mail clerks travel in couples? — A. It all depends on the run. If 
the work requires two, two go on if we have them. 

Q. Does not the work become after a time purely mechanical? — A. On a through 
run like the Ottawa and Tort William, where a man has to sort for every railwav post 
office and the post offices of the cities and towns in the Province as well, a good deal 
of headwork is required; but there is always a certain amount of routine work. 

Q. The railway mail clerk, after five years' service, will attain to what salary if 
he passes the examination? — A. $700. 

Q. And a proportionate mileage, I suppose, of about $200? — A. It depends on 
the run. 

Q. Would not a railway mail clerk of five years' standing with youth and health on 
his side, be in all probability more efficient in his duties than a railway inni! clerk 
of thirty years' standing? — A. It is possible. It altogether depends on the man. 

Q. Does not the mere fact of doing the same work day after day dull the man 
— A. No, I do not think so. Of course, the older a man grows the more the jarring 
and vibration of the train affects him. 

Q. Isn't it a matter of fact, to your knowledge, that very many railway mail 
clerks before the age of 60 have been placed on the superannuation list ? — A. Very 
few live to be superannuated. 

Q. Do you know anything about the English system? — A. Xo. 
Q. You are not aware that in England after a certain time the railway mail 
clerks are taken off their work and put in the inspector's office? — A. I am not aware 
of that. 

Q. Do you think it would be desirable, in the interest of the state, that the rail- 
way mail clerks should be occasionally taken off their runs and put in the inspector's 
office? — A. Yes, if the position were better. If there was more salary attached to 
ir. it would be very much better for their health. 

Q. In the interest of the state do you think it would? — A. Yes, I think it would. 



790 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. Did you ever hear of a railway mail clerk being appointed as a city post- 
master or to any position in a city post office? — A. No, 3ir, I never did. 

Q. Did you ever hear of a railway mail clerk becoming anything but a railway 
mail clerk, except when he became superintendent of the railway mail clerks ? — A. 
That is all. 

Q. No railway mail clerk, whatever his ability might be, could become a city 
postmaster or an inspector ? — A. No. 

Q. Is there any hope in your branch of the public service of a man getting any 
promotion or betterment in any way? — A. Not under the present system. 

Q. Then, the result of the whole thing is that railway mail clerks, owing to the 
nature of their occupation, they being constantly on the road, get their nerves shat- 
tered, and become unfit for public service at a comparatively early age? — A. Yes, 
that is correct. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. What do you call a comparatively early age? — A. Before 50. I feel that I 
need rest now. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. What holidays do you get? — A. We are supposed to get three weeks annual 
leave. 

Q. Do you get the three weeks ? — A. We get the three weeks now by doubling up 
and relieving each other. 

Q. You pay for it by doing five days work in the week instead of four? — A. Six 
days. I do not consider the three weeks a holiday. I consider them just so much time 
off. 

Q. Since Mr. Armstrong, the controller, has been in office, he has devised a system 
of case examinations here? — A. Yes. 

Q. That is, you have a large case with different names on it, and you are given a 
bundle of letters to be distributed over a certain number of counties, and you have to 
do it correctly? — A. Yes. A man has to know every post office in the Province of 
Ontario, and he is supposed to do ninety per cent of the distribution correctly. 

Q. What are your annual increments? — A. $50. 

Q. If you do not pass this case examination, is not your annual increment with- 
held? — A. Yes, no increase is given. 

By Mr. Bazin: 
Q. You do all the sorting up of the mail in the car? — A. Yes. We open up all the 
bags except perhaps the through bags. I wish to submit this statement with regard 
to the work of the railway mail clerks. (Statement read and filed). 

By the Chairman: 
Q. When you entered the service was the scale as at present? — A. No. 
Q. When was it changed? — A. It was changed in 1903. 

Q. What was the change? — A. $240 was added to the maximum, and classes 
abolished. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. Can you give us a statement showing what it cost you to live when you went 
into the service and what your salary then was, and a comparative statement as to your 
salary and the cost of living now? — A. I do not think I could. There are a few sug- 
gestions which we wish to make which are not included in the memorandum. For 
instance, the mail car, being placed next to the engine, is very much harder to ride in 
than it would be if it were back two cars further in the train. I do not know whether 
it is possible to compel the railway company to put the mail car further back. When 



ROYAL COMMISSION "V THE CIVIL SERVICE 791 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

the car is next the engine, it is very hard on the system to work in it. We would like 
to have the baggage car and the express car placed before it. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. You are on your legs all the time \ — A. Xearly all the time. 

Q. When you are sorting out the mail sitting down is an impossibility '. — A. It is 
impossible. A man has to stand on his legs all the time. 

Q. And the train stops at every station? — A. Yes, with the exception of a few 
through trains. 

Q. You are perpetually making up mail bags and taking in mail bags '. — A. Yes : 
making them up, sorting the letters and newspapers and handling the registered 
matter. One man has to carry on the work in the car alone, while in the city post 
office there are different men for different work. 

Q. Do you find that candidates are now willing to enter the railway mail service 
at $400 a year? — A. Xo. 

Q. There is a dearth of candidates now for the vacancies in the railway mail ser- 
vice ? — A. Yes. 

Q. There are vacancies and they cannot fill them '. — A. They cannot fill them with 
qualified men. 

Q. In your service you must have men — a woman could not do the work ? — A. X . 
We must have men. 

Q. You are on the superannuation list? — A. Yes. 

Q. Do you think even if the Superannuation Act were restored to the Statute 
Book or extended that men might be found to enter the service \ — A. Xo, I do not 
think so. 

Q. But if there were a Superannuation Act on the Statute Book, there would be 
a greater readiness on the part of men to remain in the service ? — A. I do not think so. 

Q. Are any of the railway mail clerks leaving the service now? — A. Yes. 

Q. They go to other occupations i — A. Yes. 

Q. That is to say, the prospect is so deadly that they leave when they have any- 
thing left in them S — A. Yes. The salaries are too small to attract the proper class 
of men. At present there are labourers employed at $1.50 a day to act as railway mail 
clerks, and they do a poor class of work. 

Q. You know that there have been very serious disasters in the train service in 
Canada — that now and again a postal car has been burned up. In your service have 
not men frequently, at the risk of their lives, endeavoured to save the mails ? — A. Yes. 
I had one experience of that kind myself. Some years ago I was running to Fort 
"William, when the train ran into a burning trestle. The engine ran off, and the mail 
car jumped over the engine, the baggage car went on top of it, and the passenger cars 
went to the side of the track. I happened to be in the dining car at the time, getting 
my dinner. I ran out immediately and got a coupling pin and started to break in the 
door of the mail car, in which the mails were scattered about. I got the door opened 
with the assistance of one or two others, and I saved as much of the registered matter 
as it was possible to save, because by the time we got in the flames were all around. 
I pulled some of the registered bags out of the flames. Some of them were in the 
bottom under the letter case, and the papers were thrown on top of them. I saved all 
the mail I could, but left my own clothes. 

Q. You lost your own effects at that time ■ — A. Yes. 

Q. What compensation was given to you ? — A. Xone whatever. 

Q. You saved the mail and you lost your clothing, and got no additional com- 
pensation or reward of any kind '. — A. Xo, I saved what mail I could. Of course, the 
papers were burnt and so were the ordinary letters. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. Didn't you apply for any compensation { — A. We applied for the cost of our 
clothing, but it was not allowed. 



792 ROYAL C0111I1S8I0X OX THE CIVIL .SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 190& 
By the Chairman: 

Q. Hasn't it happened that railway mail clerks have been permanently disabled 
in consequence of their efforts to save the mails during fire and otherwise? — A. They 
have been injured by accidents, and a man was killed in an accident at Stittsville a 
few years ago — Robert Peden. 

Q. He had a wife, hadn't he? — A. Yes. 

Q. What compensation was paid to his wife? — A. I never could find out, if any. 

Q. Do you know whether any compensation was paid at all ? — A. I do not know. 

Q. Do you know whether any annuity has ever been given to the widow of a rail- 
way mail clerk who has been killed in the discharge of his duty? — A. I do not know. 

Q. Do you know if any compensation or allowance has been paid to the dependent 
relatives of a railway mail clerk who has died in the performance of his duty ? — A. No. 
I knew of one case where the father of a railway mail clerk who died got three 
months' pay. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Was the father dependent on the son? — A. No. I think that was probably to 
pay funeral expenses. It was about $40 a month. The man was only in the service 
for a short time. 

Q. Is there no consideration for a widow or dependent young children in such 
cases? — A. There is no provision made. It is at the option of the Government. 

Q. There is no provision on the statute book for it? — A. There is no provision on 
the statute book. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Have you any insurance on your life? — A. Yes. 

Q. There is no Government system of insurance on your lives? — A. No. 

Q. There is no system of Government insurance on railway mail clerks? — A. No. 

Q. There is no system of insurance by which the Government pays to insure 
their lives? — A. No. We would like to get more assistance; we have not help enough. 
We cannot even get our holidays. 

Q. There are plenty of vacancies and no applicants now? — A. I do not know; but 
we are only getting labourers at $1.50 a day to do the work of railway mail clerks. 

Q. They are only transitory? — A. They are only transitory, and they are a very 
poor class. For instance, between Montreal and here and on other routes where they 
do the work, if you step into a car after they have left off, you have to check over a 
lot of their work. If you allow it to go the way they leave it, it would be mis-sent,, 
and would be delayed. 

Q. You have a big machine continually grinding, and you have to keep up with 
it?— A. Yes. 



Ottawa, June 20, 1907. 
To the Civil Service Royal Commission, 
Ottawa, Out. 

Gentlemen, — The railway mail service of the Ottawa district would respectfully 
ask you to present to the Government for consideration their claims for an increase 
in the maximum salary now paid them from $1,200 to $1,500 per annum, and that 
the yearly increase be advanced from $50 to $100, also that all clerks who have now 
served 15 years be placed at the present maximum, $1,200 per annum at once. On 
entering the service a railway mail clerk is required to possess the same educational 
qualification as his confreres in the city post office or in the inside service, and unlike 
those gentlemen he must every twelve months pass a stiff examination in his official 
duties, and in order to qualify at all for promotion must take as high as 90 per cent 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 793 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

on these examinations, besides, the nature of the employment demands the exercise 
of superior strength and stamina, while the inside service have at the most only 
three examinations, the railway mail clerks have to pass an examination every year 
|in order to obtain the annual increase in salary. 

We think a railway mail clerk should be exempt from further examination after 
he reaches his maximum salary. It is quite evident he is well qualified, and furtheT 
examinations should be unnecessary in his case. 

Without at all claiming to be a superior class of men to clerks of the cit; 
office or the inside service, we do claim that the difficulties and dangers by which 
we are surrounded while engaged in our work demands superior qualifications !"0 
either of these branches, and entitles us to a higher remuneration for our services. 

Let us compare our duties with the duties in a city post office. The work in a 
city post office is carried on in a well lighted and well ventilated room; it admits 
of a division of labour ; one clerk takes charge of registered matter, a second sorts let- 
ters, newspapers are sorted by a third, while a fourth clerk perhaps looks after the 
receipt and despatch of mails, thus, the confusion and liability to error inseparable 
from hastily turning from one class of work to another is avoided; pot so, however, 
with the railway mail service, for one clerk carries on all these duties, often alone 
and amid the tumult and disorder of a rapidly moving train, the air of the car vitiated 
by the burning lamps or reeking with smoke and dust. He has to accommodate him- 
self in carrying on his work in postal cars of various sizes and designs gotten up 
without regard to the requirements of his route, and change from time to time with- 
out notice to suit the convenience or caprice of the railway officials. 

It is said that the mileage allowance to railway mail clerks fully compensates 
him for the smallness of his salary. Let us examine this statement. The Toronto 
district, where the average mileage for each clerk is about $240 per annum, and we 
find that each clerk has to pay out a large proportion of this sum for meals, sleep- 
ing accommodation during his absence from home on duty, and add to this the 
increased expense inseparable from such a manner of living and we find but a small 
pittance left to compensate him for the inconvenience and the irregularity of his 
life, to say nothing of the ever-present risk of life and limb to which he is exposed on 
duty. 

As twenty-five years' service in a postal car is as hard on a man as thirty-five 
years in an office, we think that the age at which a clerk may be superannuated should 
be reduced from 65 to 50 years, and the length of service reduced from thirty-five 
to twenty-five years, also that the superannuation be restored to recent and new ap- 
pointments, or at least give them the option of superannuation or the retirement fund. 

We think that the postal car should not be placed next the engine as at present, 
but that at least one or two cars should intervene, baggage and express. 

There is no position in the Government more exacting that that of a postal clerk, 
and none that has so many requirements. He must not only be sound in wind and 
limb, but possessed of more than ordinary intelligence and a retentive memory. His 
work is constant and his only recreation study. 

He must not only be proficient in his immediate work, but he must have a gene- 
ral knowledge of the entire country, so that the correspondence he handles shall reach 
its destination at the earliest possible moment. He must know no night and no day. 
He must be impervious to heat and cold. Rushing along at the rate of 40 or 50 miles 
an hour in charge of that which is sacred — the correspondence of the people — catching 
his meals as he may; at his home only semi-occasionally, the wonder is that men com- 
petent to discharge the duties of so high a calling can be found for so small a com- 
pensation. 

They have to take the hazardous risk of their toilsome duties. There are no pub- 
lic offices which are so emphatically ' public trusts ' as those whose duties comprise that 
of handling the correspondence of the people, because upon the proper and skilful per- 
formance of that duty depends — to a far greater degree than in the case of any other 



794 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

function accomplished through Government agency— the business and social welfare of 
the entire community. 

Trusting you will give these representations your favourable consideration. 

^Ye have the honour to be, sir, 
Yours respectfully, 

(Signed) JOHX PURCELL, 

On behalf of the Railway Mail Claries 
of the Ottawa District. 



Ottawa, July 13, 1907. 
The Civil Service Royal Commission, 
Ottawa, Out. 

Gentlemen,-— I beg to submit on behalf of the Railway Mail Clerks of the Ottawa 
district a statement on the increased cost of living: 

This statement was prepared by the railway mail clerks of the Toronto district, 
and in our opinion fairly represents the conditions in this district. 

Your obedient servant. 

Signed on behalf of the Railway Mail 
Clerks of the Ottawa District. 

(Signed) J. PURCELL. 



INCREASE IN THE COST OF LIVING IX TORONTO. 

The cost of living may be classified as follows : (a) food; (6) fuel ; (c) clothing; 
(d) rent; (e) miscellaneous expenditure. The question of increase may therefore be 
discussed under these heads. 

(a) Eood. — The following are the principal articles of food consumed in working- 
men's families, arranged approximately in the order of proportionate expenditure : 
Butter, meat, sugar, milk, bread, flour, fish, potatoes and other vegetables, eggs, tea, 
fruit, oatmeal and cheese 

The following are sold in the St. Lawrence market and the prices are quoted daily 
in the newspapers : Potatoes, apples, cabbage, onions, turkeys, geese, hens, butter, 
eggs, beef, lamb, veal and hogs. 

The average minimum prices of the Saturday market have been taken out for each 
year and the whole combined in a series of index numbers as follows. These index 
numbers show the percentage of advance in each year since 1897, as compared with 
the prices of that year: — 

Pel- 
cent. 

Prices of 1897 100 

1898 112 

1899 132 

1900 132 

1901 127 

1902 150 

1903 147 

1904 147 

1905 158 

1906 164 

ADVANCE OF 61 PER CENT. 

Thus, so far as the commodities which are sold in the market are concerned, the 
prices of 1902 represented an advance over 1S97 of 50 per cent, while the prices of 
1906 represented an advance of 64 per cent. Of the commodities in the first of the 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 795 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

foregoing lists, including some which are not sold in the market, not all have advanced 
in an eq'd*jl degree. The following will illustrate this point: — 



Butter.. 
Beef.. .. 
Sugar.. . 
Milk.. .. 
Bread.. . 
Flour. . . 
Fish.. .. 
Potatoes. 
Mutton. . 
Eggs.. .. 
Lard.. .. 
Tea.. .. 
Apples. . 
Oatmeal. 
Cheese. . 



Index 


Index 


No. 


No. 


of 1S97. 


of 1906 


100 


149 


100 


136 


too 


110 


100 


113 


100 


92 


1(111 


105 


100 


125 


100 


162 


100 


157 


100 


167 


100 


150 


100 


100 


100 


122 


100 


100 


100 


129 



Total 100 128 



This shows an advance in the prices of these foodstuffs, which are those entering 
most importantly into the consumption of workingmen's families, of 28 per cent. In 
the above statement no account is taken of the relative importance of the commodities, 
this is of the proportions in which they enter into consumption. This varies with the 
size of the family and with the ages of the children. For a normal family of 5 •"• 
persons, certain ' weights ' may be attached to the percentages given. This has been 
done, and the resulting percentage does not differ materially from that given above. 
It is, therefore, not necessary to detail the calculation. 

For some families the net total excess of the cost of the food in 1906 over 1897 
will be greater or less than 28 per cent, in proportion to consumption of those com- 
modities which have been subject to the higher rates of increase. Moreover, it must 
be realized that the comparison is between two periods in which the standard of com- 
fort is assumed not to have varied. As a matter of fact, the advance of the standard 
of comfort has added greatly to the cost of living, and would have added to it had 
there been no advance in the prices of commodities. 

Apart from the general causes which affect wholesale prices in all the markets of 
the world, the following specific causes are alleged by those in the various trades con- 
cerned to have been influential in producing the advance of local prices. 

So far as local produce is concerned, the chief cause is undoubtedly the increase 
of demand due to the increase of population, coupled with increased resources result- 
ing from relatively higher wages and greater profits. This increase in demand has 
gone on at a rate too rapid for the local production of foodstuffs to cope with, especially 
coincident as this enlarged demand has been with drafts from the agricultural popula- 
tion of Ontario to the Xorthwest. To these influences must be added the concurrent 
increase in demand from abroad, stimulated as it has been by improved shipping 
facilities — cold storage on railways, at ports, and on board steamers. &c. 

Although the wages of the persons engaged in the distribution have advanced and 
profits of retail dealers are undoubtedly higher, the farmer has been benefited also by 
enhanced prices and by steady demand. 

The chief advances have occurred in the following commodities : — 

Eggs, 67 per cent. Cooking eggs have advanced on account of the increased shipp- 
ing demand, and on account also of the larger local demand. Fresh eggs have sent 
from the region around Toronto in large quantities to the mining towns asd camps of 
Cobalt, and this has constituted a new field for demand. 

Potatoes, 62 per cent. The principal cause of this increase is the deficient crop 
of the last year or two. United States potatoes have been largely imported to make 
up the deficiency. 



797 ROYAu COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Mutton, 57 per cent. This increase has been caused chiefly by the increase of 
local demand, coupled with a dimunition in sheep farming. 

Lard, 50 per cent. This has been due to the demand in northern Ontario and 
the Northwest, and to the increased price of hogs. Lard is not shipped abroad. 

Butter, 49 per cent. Increase in the price of butter falls very heavily upon the 
poorer families, by whom a large quantity is consumed, relatively to the quantities of 
other articles, the expenditure upon butter being approximately the same as that upon 
all meats. The advance has been due largely to the advance in the price of lard. It 
has taken place chiefly in cooking butter. 

B. Fuel. — Pursuing the same method as that adopted in presenting the prices of 
food, the variations in the prices of coal may be presented as follows : — 

1897 100 

1898 95 

1899 78 

1900 10o 

1901 105 

1902 HO 

1903 (strike year) 181 

1904 11* 

1905 124 

1906 121 

The causes of these fluctuations being almost wholly external to Canada need 
not be discvissed here. 

COST OF CLOTHING. 

C. Clothing. — Of all items in domestic expenditure, clothing is perhaps the most 
difficult to present in statistics. During the past ten years the principal raw materials 
have advanced in price as follows: — 

1897. 1906. 

Raw cotton 100 175 

Web cotton 100 133 

Canadian wool 100 150 

Australian wool 100 150 

Fine wool 100 130 

Flannel 100 200 

On the other hand, machines have increased in output and labour, in efficiency, 

so that the price of the unfinished article is not advanced proportionately to the price 

of raw material. The following is based upon prices quoted by some of the leading 

retail houses for goods of the same quality in 1S97 and in 1906: — 

1897. 1906. 

First quality, suits 100 125 

Second quality, suits 100 118 

Causes other than local determine the prices of the great staples, cotton and wool. 
The increase of demand has, it is understood, stimulated production, and has affected 
prices to a comparatively moderate extent. 
Shoes have advanced as thus : — 

1897. 1906. 
Shoes 100 125 

If the index number 120 is taken for 1906, as representing the price of clothing 
in general as compared with 100 for 1907, this would mean an increase of 20 per cent, 
which, in the absence of more precise data, may perhaps be provisionally accepted. 

THE ITEM OF RENT. 

D. Kent. — The most conspicuous of the increases in the items of household ex- 
penditure has been the increase in rent. 

The increase in rent may be set down broadly to the increase in population, and 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 797 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

to the failure of the house-building industry to keep pace with it. That the popula- 
tion has outgrown the means for its accommodation is obvious from the following: — 
Assessment of real property per head in Toronto from 1892 to 1906 : 

1892 T $819 

1893 833 

1894 777 

1895 732 

1896 667 

1897 631 

1898 613 

1899 586 

1900 576 

1901 583 

1902.. '. 583 

1903 579 

1904 581 

1905 591 

1906 611 

Eight ' samples ' workmen's houses, upon which no improvements have been exe- 
cuted by the owners during the past ten years, and the history of which has been made 
available, exhibit the following increase in rents: — 

Index number, 1897 100 

Index number, 1906 195 

This is an increase of 95 per cent in ten years. It is true that the number of 
houses is not large, but there is reason to believe that they are fairly representative. 
The error is probably not of great magnitude. The reasons for the advance may 
be set forth as follows: — 

(a) The absence for several years of speculative building, due partly to the 
collapse of the building boom about 1891, to slow recovery from the depression which 
ensued, and recently to the dearness of money. 

(&) The increased cost of materials. 

(c) At certain junctures increased wages have been an element of importance, 
but at present other factors seem to predominate. 

(d) Miscellaneous expenditure always increases with the increase of resources. 
Much of the advance in the standard of comfort appears in the provision of the thou- 
sand odds and ends that are dispensed with when wages are low and that are the occa- 
sion of ' leakage ' when wages are high. In a comparative review such as this they 
may be disregarded. 

The amount of weight which seemed to be attached to the different items of house- 
hold expenditure is very difficult to determine. A very extended inquiry would be 
necessary to find a basis for an accurate 3eries of figures. The proportions which have 
been found to prevail in the United States, still less those in Europe, cannot be taken 
as applying conclusively to Toronto. Erom such material as is available the follow- 
ing ' weights ' have been provisionally determined. It must be emphatically stated 
that they are very approximate. Moreover, the main percentages exhibit unfortunately 
various degrees of probable accuracy. The percentage advance attributed to food pos- 
sesses a high probability of accuracy; that attributed to clothing is very approximate; 
that attributed to rent possesses a fair degree of probable accuracy, although the num- 
ber of cases upon which it is based is not large. 

INCREASES IN CHIEF ITEMS MAKING UP COST OF LIVING. 

Table showing percentage increases in the cost of the chief items of working-clas3 
expenditure as between 1897 and 1906 : — 

1897. 1906. 

Food 100 128 

Kent 100 195 

Fuel 100 124 

Clothing 100 120 



798 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Application of the following ' weights ' to the above table yields the result also as 
follows : — 

Food, 10; rent. 5; fuel, 2; clothing. 2. 

1897. 190G. 
" Weighted " index number 100 144 

This ' weighted ' index represents the increase in the cost of the necessaries of 
life in a normal workingman's family, so far as the material at present available enables 
a general conclusion to be drawn. It is offered with due reserve. 

These figures apply for the most part to workingmen's families. In middle class 
households, although precise details are wanting, it is probable that rent had not ad- 
vanced in quite so great a proportion as has been the case in the working class. On 
tthe other hand, domestic service has increased very heavily, and the cost of miscel- 
laneous foodstuffs consumed by the middle class has also increased. The following 
increases in retail prices of fine groceries are given by way of example: — 

1897. 1906. 

Cocoa 10n 12.5 

Raisins 100 147 

Currants 100 133 

Almonds 100 170 

Starch 100 140 

Biscuits 100 114 

Pepper (black) 100 130 

Figs 100 125 

Candles 100 125 

Tinned salmon 100 131 

Good clothing has also increased in price. It should be remarked that some por- 
tion of the observed increase in the cost of living must be attributed to a general ad- 
vance in the standard of comfort of all classes. Earnings in the working class have 
been higher, and have been more freely spent. Trading profitts have also been higher, 
and the expenses of the trading class have risen proportionately. 

SALARY CLASS HARD HIT. 

On the other hand, the salaries class have suffered by the advance of prices, and 
by the increased standard of comfort around them with which they naturally desire to 
keep pace. In a period of falling price, of course the class with fixed incomes gains, 
but the current has been in the other direction for some time. The advance of rent 
has fallen heavily upon the class of persons who live on a small fixed income. Many 
of these have been compelled seriously to diminish their comfort, to remove to a 
smaller house and to practice economy in clothing and otherwise. The rise in the wages 
of domestic servants has compelled this class to do without them. 

The pressure upon household accommodation has led large numbers of families 
to take in lodgers in order to increase their income, or to enable them to pay the en- 
hanced rents. This practice has contributed still further to enhance rents, the cost 
of houses and the price of land in certain portions of the city. 



Ottawa, June 20, 1907. 
Mr. Francis G. Allen., sworn and examined. 

By the Chairman : 
Q. You are a clerk in the Ottawa post office? — A. Yes. 
Q. You entered the service in 1886? — A. Yes. 
Q. You are still a junior third class clerk '. — A. Yes. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 799 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. You are now 51 years of age? — A. Yes. 
Q. And your salary is $1,000?— A. Yes. 

By Mr. Fyslie : 
Q. What did you get when you went in ? — A. $400. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. And in twenty-one years you have gone on, by promotion I presume, from the 
fourth class to the junior third, and then to the senior third, and then to the junior 
second?— A. When I entered the service there were only three grades— first, second and 
third. I was a third-class clerk. 

Q. You entered at $400 and got annual increments ?— A. Yes, of $40 for a while, 
and then they raised it to $50. 

Q. In the third-class it went up to what? — A. $800. 

Q. Then you passed a promotion examination? — A. Yes. In the Bill brought in 
by Sir William Mulock there were five or six different classes provided for. I was 
made a junior second on the 1st of December, 1903. 

Q. What is the minimum salary of a junior second? — A. $900. 

Q. Since then you have had increases amounting to $100? — A. Yes. 

Q. And you are on the eve of another increase of $50? — A. Under the new law 
we hardly know where we are. We are supposed to get an increase of $50 each year, 
but it takes three years to get $100. I was at the maximum of my class for eight 
years, during which I got no increase. This Bill makes four classes, and a junior and 
senior in each class, so that there are practically nine classes, and at each step we are 
held up for a year without any increase. 

Q. I presume that the explanation of your only having two increases in three years 
is the fact that when you got to the higher grade you had to wait for twelve months 
at the minimum before you got an increment? — A. That is right. 

Q. Are the statements in this pamphlet (showing) got up from personal expe- 
rience? — A. Yes. I got up that pamphlet myself at the request of the Postmaster 
General, and I can swear to the correctness of every statement in it. 

Q. The statements A, B, C and E relate to Ottawa, and the statements F and G 
relate to other places? — A, Yes. When the post office employees formed this asso- 
ciation for the purpose of getting our salaries increased, I was appointed secretary, 
and I communicated with each city post office, of which there are but fifteen, where 
the staff is paid by the Government. In the other offices the staffs are paid by the 
postmasters themselves. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. Where the postmaster pays his own staff there cannot be the same discipline that 
there is where the Government pay them ? — A. I do not see why. I have visited many 
of the offices within the last three months in reference to this matter. In some of 
the offices, Stratford, for instance, a new arrangement has been made, where there is 
what is called a semi-staff. The postmaster's salary is based on the revenue of the 
office, but the staff is paid by the Governmentt. 

By the Chairman : 
Q. This is a new departure? — A. A new departure within the last year. They are 
paid less than the staff in the city offices. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 
Q. Would they be paid less than similar men would get in outside positions in 
these various localities? — A. No, they would be paid about the same. 

Q. But I should judge there- would be less to look forward to in the way of pro- 



800 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

motion?— A. They call it a semi-staff. They get $360 on appointment and are taken 
en two months on probation, after which they get $400. 

Q. That. I presume, is a fixed rule? — A. Yes. 

Q. Is it incumbent on the postmaster to pay these salaries ? — A. The Government 
pays them. They have an annual increase of $50 up to $800, or in special cases to 
$900. No more women are to be employed, but those who are there now have to be 
retained. 

Q. Why is that? — A. It is believed that women are not best suited for the work 
in post offices, and they are not to be paid more than $600. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Coming back to the Ottawa post office, you are now a junior second-class clerk? 
—A. Yes. 

Q. Bf-'.oiij! that there is a senior second-class ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Then a first-class ?— A. Yes. 

Q. Then the assistant postmaster and the postmaster? — A. Yes. There is also a 
superintendent in each office; that is a new arrangement in offices where the revenue 
reaches a certain amount. In most of the large offices there is a superintendent, but 
he does not get any more salary unless the revenue of the office reaches a certain 
figure. 

Q. What do the superintendents get? — A. $1,500, I think. 

Q. That is equivalent to a first-class clerkship? — A. We have first-class clerks 
who get $1,500, but that is only after thirty-five or thirty-seven years' service. 

Q. Besides the superintendent there is the assistant postmaster and the post- 
master? — A. Yes. 

Q. Could you, if you lived to 100, become a postmaster? — A. No, not unless I was 
a Member of Parliament or an ex-Member of Parliament. 

Q. How are the assistant postmasters appointed? Do they mount up? — A. Yes, 
they are supposed to. 

Q. The assistant postmaster of the Ottawa post office has been in the service 40 
years ? — A. Yes, ever since he has been a boy. 

Q. And he has gradually mounted up by length of service ? — A. Yes. 

Q. But under no condition could you ever become a postmaster under the pre- 
sent system ? — A. No. I may be wrong there. I could not, perhaps, in a city like 
Ottawa : but at Stratford the postmaster who has lately been appointed was assistant 
postmaster for a number of years before that. But he is an exception. 

Q. The present inspector of the Ottawa district was an old employee of the Ottawa 
post office before it became a city post office? — A. Yes. 

Q. And he became inspector by promotion? — A. Yes. 

Q. But by no possibility could you become a post office inspector? — A. No. 

Q. Under the Act city postmasters and inspectors are political appointments? — • 
A. Yes. 

Q. Suppose there was a vacancy in the post office at Kingston, as there was the 
other day, nobody in the service at Ottawa could obtain that? — A. I think not. 

Q. Do you know of any place to which any member of the Ottawa staff has ever 
been appointed outside of Ottawa? — A. No. 

Q. The promotion could only be in Ottawa ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Has anybody ever been appointed over your head since you have been in the 
service ?— A. That cannot be done in a city post office in the same way that it can be 
in some other branches of the service. 

Q. Is there any hope of a boy entering a city post office at the lowest grade be- 
coming a city postmaster or an inspector? — A. I think not. 

Q. There is no hope of an intelligent youth in the outside post office service get- 
ting beyond a certain limit? — A. No. If he got to the first-class that would be the 
limit. We have only two in the first-class. 

Q. Those are Mr. Pennock and Mr. Mercer? — A. Yes. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX TEE CIVIL SERVICE 801 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. One was appointed in 1878 and the other in 1872? — A. Yes. 

Q. But the general circumstances of the case now are that a boy entering the 
Ottawa post office at the age of 19 at the lowest rank could never hope to look forward 
to anything beyond a possible first-class clerkship after nearly 40 years of service? — 
A. That is right. 

Q. You are under the old Superannuation Act? — A. Yes. 

Q. What is your opinion of the abolition of that Act? — A. I think it was a big 
mistake, the biggest mistake the Government ever made. 

Q. If you had not the benefit of .the Superannuation Act would you remain in 
the service? — A. No, sir, decidedly not. 

Q. Is the absence of the Superannuation Act detrimental to the service? — A. Yes. 
Then the age limit has been reduced to 16 years in order to get people to come into 
the office, because a man of 18 will not come in at the wages paid. I would leave 
today if they would superannuate me. The help we are getting into the office now, 
under the new Act are younger and the new arrangements that have been made are 
very inferior. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 
Q. They are taking in inferior material ? — A. Yes. Competent young men will 
not stay at the salary given. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Are there people appointed in the Ottawa post office, who have not passed 
any examination and who are classed as labourers ? — A. I could not say as to that. 
These details are kept by the sssistant postmaster. 

Q. There are two fourth class clerks in the list who are stated to have been born 
in 1866, over 41 years of age. Did they come in at $400 a year? — A. One of them, 
McCallum, was a letter carrier for many years, and then he was put on the staff as 
a clerk. 

Q. What was his salary as a letter carrier when he iwas appointed clerk ? — A. 
I think he was at the maximum, $600. 

Q. I thought Dr. Coulter stated the other day that the maximum salary of a 
letter carrier was $720 a year ? — A. If they take that class they give up certain rights 
which they had under the eld Act. There are a great many who have done that and 
would like to go back again, because they did not see the effect of it at the time, I 
have been told. They are taking in now a class of men, and classing them as 
labourers. These men are paid $1.50 a day, in some cases $1.25; and after they have 
been there a year, if the assistant postmasters think they would make efficient clerks, 
he can recommend them, and they will be put on as clerks. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. What do you use labourers for? — A. There is no appropriation made by the 
government to pay extra clerks, but they have an appropriation for labourers, and the 
names of these men are put on the pay-list of labourers. 

Q. That is a misnomer ? — A. Yes. 

Qi They pass no examination? — A. Only a small preliminary examination. 
They spend a year as labourers at $500, then they are made permanent clerks and 
the pay reduced to $400 a year. They could not be made permanent otherwise. 

Q. Surely no man would submit to his salary being reduced $100 a year in order 
to get the different title ? — A. Some of them do in order to be made permanent. 

By the Chairman : 
Q. If they continue as labourers they do not get more than $1.50 ? — A. Yes, 
they go up to $2.25 a day. We have men to-day getting $2.25 a day, and we have other 
' 29a— 51 



802 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD Vtl., A. 1908 

men doing the same kind of work who have been there twice as long, getting only 
$1.50. 

Q. When they are appointed as clerks they begin at $-±00 ? — A. Yes. 

Q. And rise to $600 ?— A. Yes. 

Q. And then they go on by promotion? — A. They are supposed to. 

Q. Your junior second class clerks are women ? — A. Not ours. We have only 
five women. 

Q. Do you find that more women are coming into the city post offices than for- 
merly ? — A. No. They have reduced the number. I believe it is an understood thing 
that no more women will be put on the outside post office service. The experience 
is that they are not suitable for the heavy work. They will not put out those who are 
there, but they will not appoint any more. The women can do certain clerical work, 
but there is night work, Sunday work and other work about the office that we should 
not make them do. 

Q. So the tendency is to drop women from the outside service of the Post Office 
department ? — A. That, . I believe, is the policy of the department at present. It 
is liable to be changed though. If another Minister came in there might be a change 
on that line. 

Q. Of course, the Ottawa post office is in the patronage of the members for 
Ottawa?— A. Yes. 

Q. If a vacaancy happens in the Ottawa post office the appointment lies with the 
two members for Ottawa ? — A. Yes. 

Q. It is not like the department where the Minister has the say, but is entirely 
within the patronage of the local members ? — A. Yes. 

Q. In the recent appointment of the postmaster at Kingston it is stated in the 
papers that the nomination was made at the instance of the local association ? — A. 
I believe that is correct. I was there about a month ago and spoke to the new post- 
master. I know him personally. 

Q. The appointment is a rather good one ? — A. Yes. I believe he is a good man. 
They seem very well satisfied with him there. 

Q. Still it is rather hard lines on the officials of that post office that none of them 
had any chance ? — A. Yes. I have been told a man who was doing the work of assist- 
ant postmaster for a number of years at Kingston could not be confirmed assistant 
postmaster because the association would not recommend him. 

By Mr. Fyshe ': 

Q. Did the Deputy Minister or Minister ask their opinion ? — A. I do not know 
anything about that. 

Q. Do you think he was not appointed because the association would not recom- 
mend him? — A. That is what I was told. 

Q. If the opinion of the association was against him, it must have been for a 
good reason? — A. I do not know. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Among the third-class clerks there is one getting $800 per annum who is 49 
years of age. He was appointed in 1885. Did he fail to pass the promotion exami- 
nation ? — A. No. I think he has passed his promotion examinations ; but I believe his 
conduct report has been against him. 

Q. Considering the manner of appointments, is the staff of the Ottawa post 
office fairly efficient? — A. It is not as efficient as it used to be. 

Q. Is that owing in a great measure to inferior people being appointed at the 
commencement ? — A. Decidedly. 

Q. People who are appointed for sporting or other proclivities ?— A. We have had 
them. Of course, you will understand that the difference between our service and the 
other services is in the qualifying examination, which could only be passed by a youth 
who had gone as far as the Collegiate Institute. That has been eliminated. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 803 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. Was not that very unwise ? — A. Very unwise. Some of the men we get in now 
are not good readers and the writing we have to deal with is not always the best. The 
qualifications have to be lowered because the salary is so low that good men will not 
come in. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. In consequence of the appointment of all these incompetent people, is not the 
work of the efficient element of the staff greatly increased? — A. Yes, decidedly. 

Q. What are your office hours? — A. That is one of the great grievances we have 
— the office hours. In the city post office we are supposed to work seven and a half 
actual working hours daily. That sounds very innocent, but when you start at seven 
in the morning, and your hours are scheduled to cover to six or seven o'clock at night, 
it makes a long day. Besides that, our hours are changed every week and in some 
branches every day. The consequence is that on one day I will get my breakfast at a 
certain hour, and the next day two hours later; and it is the same case with my din- 
ner hour. That destroys a man's digestion. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. What is the reason for that? — A. The real fact of the matter is that there are 
not enough men there to do the work. We have a branch in the office called the 
Government office, where only the Government work is attended to. From that branch 
we send the first batch of mails to the departments at eight o'clock every morning. 
Previous to that the mails have to be sorted, so that to get that work done men must 
be there from half past six or a quarter to seven every morning. This is hard in the 
winter. Some have to get up at half past four or five to be on duty in time in some 
branches. 

Q. Do you live out of town? — A. No, in the city. I have to do two and a half 
hours' work in the morning, then I go home for three or four hours and then come 
back and do the rest of the time. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Do you have the same hours every day or do the hours shift? — A. I have the 
same hours now because my doctor advised me to that effect. 

Q. But if it were not for this, your hours would shift daily? — A. Yes. I will 
read the hours to you. There are seven men in one branch. One comes on at 6.30 
a.m. and works till 9; then he goes away and comes at 1, and works till 6 at night. 
Another man starts at 12.30 and works till 4.30; then he is off till 6 in the evening, 
and he works from 6 to 9.30. In the next week the first man takes the other man's 
hours. 

Q. Why are they changed about? — A. Simply because the men will not stand the 
work otherwise. In our general delivery the man has to be on duty at 6 o'clock every 
morning and he works till 8.30; he then goes away and comes back at 1 and works 
till 6. The other man comes on at 8, goes away at 1, comes back at 6 and works till 
8.30. They change around every week. In some branches they change every day. 

Q. How long are the wickets open to the public? — A. From 8 to 8. 

Q. What about Sundays? — A. That is a tender spot. I work every fourth Sun- 
day. During the session I start at 1 o'clock in the morning and work till 12, then I 
get my dinner, come back at 1 and work till 5. 

Q. Do you get any additional remnueration for your Sunday work? — A. No. 

Q. Do you have much work to do? — A. As much as three of the men do on any 
other day. 

Q. What holidays do you get? — A. We are entitled to three weeks. 

Q. What holidays do you get? — A. We get them if we can; if we cannot, we 

29a— 51J 



804 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

don't. Last year I got all but eight days, and I had them transferred to this year. I 
started to take my holidays, and after I was away a day I was called back. That is 
the way we get them in many cases. 

Q. You cannot go a distance? — A. No. But it is most advisable to go a distance, 
because then they cannot send for you. 

Q. The inspector's office is in the same building? — A. Yes, upstairs. 

Q. How often is the post office inspected? — A. I do not think the inspector has 
anything to do with that now. That i* transferred to Mr. Ross, the superintendent of 
city post offices. 

Q. The inspector of the Ottawa district looks after the rural post offices? — A. Yes. 

Q. How often does M~. Ross come to the office \ — A. He comes in and out at all 
times. He is on the road pretty nearly all the time. 

Q. When he comes to your room, what does he do ( — A. He does not do anything. 
We have no regular inspection like a bank or a commercial house. I have never seen 
the inspector come into my office in twenty years and watch me doing my work or ask 
me how I did it. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. Who supervises you { — A. The deputy postmaster. 

Q. He does not bother you much, I suppose? — A. He does not require to. Each 
senior clerk looks after his branch. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. What is your particular branch ? — A. The Government branch. 

Q. Does the city post office sell stamps ? — A. Yes, but that is done by an outsider 
on commission, not by the post office staff. 

Q. How many people of the fixed staff are employed in this Government branch? — 
A. Four or five of us. 

Q. Are there any senior seconds there? — A. No, they are in another branch. I 
may say that within the last two years I was senior clerk in the Government branch; 
but two months ago I was transferred to another part. The branch was divided into 
two parts, and I tqok the other part because of the regular hours. 

Q. Then you are the senior officer in the Government distribution branch? — A. 
Yes. 

Q. And the other officers of that branch are senior third-class clerks? — A. No. I 
have some who are classed as labourers with me. 

Q. They are juniors to yourself in position? — A. Yes. The standing of a clerk 
does not make any difference in his work. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. The standing should correspond with the work? — A. Yes, but we cannot have 
that. I may say that we asked Sir William Unlock to place the clerks in the outside 
service on the same basis in regard to salaries as those of the inside service, although 
in the matter of time we work three months more than they do each year. We are 
not allowed any statutory holidays or any extra pay for work on Sundays. We argued 
our case before Sir Wilfrid Laurier, and he replied that he did not know that there 
was any difference between the salaries paid to the inside and the outside service, and 
that it should not be so. That was in June, 1906. The classes which I would ask the 
Commission to look particularly into, are the lower grade clerks and labourers in our 
office. The man who takes mails containing annually thirteen and a half million dol- 
lars on his back to the Bank of Montreal, gets only $600 a year, while the men hauling 
about newspapers get $800 a year. In consideration of the increased cost of living an 
immediate increase of 25 per cent to lower grades, and 20 per cent to second-class 
clerks, and 10 per cent to first-class clerks should, at least, be given, and the same 
percentages added to the maximum salary of each class; also the number of classes 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 805 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

should be reduced to three — first, second aud third. The annual increase should be 
$100 instead of $50. Sunday work and night work should receive special consideration. 
The Superannuation Act should be restored, and the age limit reduced from 65 to 60 
years. Length of service reduced from 35 to 30 years. No clerk should be appointed 
until he has reached eighteen years of age, and has passed the qualifying examination. 



Statement of the case presented by the deputation to Hon. R. Lemieux, Postmaster 
General, Nov. 7, 1906, asking for an increase in salaries to employees of the City 
Post Offices. 

At a meeting of the delegates held at Ottawa previous to waiting on the Post- 
master General, it was thought advisable that the following statements should be 
printed and sent out to the different offices interested. Many others were received 
but there was little difference between them when compared. 
To Hon. P. Lemieux, Postmaster-General : — 

Before going into the subject for which we have met to-day, Sir, you will allow 
me on behalf of the gentlemen here representing the different Post Offices under your 
department, to thank you heartily for the interest you have taken so far in ^matters 
which to us is of such great importance. 

There are reasons which we claim entitles us to consideration and we will take 
them individually. 

First, then, Cost of Living. 

Second, Comparison of Salaries. 



COST OF LIVING. 

Statement " A." 
Senior Second Class Clerk, with a Family of 4, Salary of $1,200 Per Annum. 

Expense?, 
Month. 

K-iit and tuxes ! $33 00 

Fuel 5 50 

Food 30 00 

Clothing 15 00 

Schooling, college 12 00 

Medical expenses 2 50 

Church 3 00 

Recreation 2 00 

Insurance 12 00 

Lighting 1 00 

Superannuation 2 00 

Servant 6 00 

Sundries 2 00 

S126 00 
Income 
per month. 

Salary, government $100 00 

Income, private 36 60 

$136 00 

Total expenses 126 00 

Salary from government 100 00 

Deficit, per month $26 00 



806 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 
1 Statement " B." 

Junior Second Class Clerk, with a Family of 6, on a Salary of $1,000 Per Annum. 

Expenses, 
Month. 

Kent, per month $12 00 

Fuel 4 50 

Food 43 00 

Furnishings 2 00 

Clothing 10 00 

Schooling 3 00 

Medical expenses 1 00 

Church 2 00 

Recreation ■ 2 00 

Insurance 6 50 

Superannuation 1 75 

Light and gas 3 00 

Help 2 00 

$92 75 

Expenses, 
month. 

Salary, per month $ 83 33 

Other sources 20 00 

$103 33 

Expenses per month $ 92 75 

Salary, Department • 83 33 

Deficit $9*2 



Statement " C." 

Junior Third Class with a Family of 6, on a Salary of $800 Per Annum. 

Expenses, 
month. 

Kent $14 00 

Fuel 4 00 

Food 35 16 

Clothing 11 00 

Schooling 2 50 

Insurance 3 00 

Church 1 60 

Kecreation * 30 

Furnishings 2 40 

Tobacco 35 

Medical expenses 1 30 

Car fare 3 00 

Newspaper 30 

Sundries 1° 

Xmas presents 

Superannuation 1 33 

Light 65_ 

$82 71 
Income. 

Salary, Government $800 00 

Other sources 156 00 

$956 00 

Expenses per month $82 71 

Salary 66 66 

Deficit $16 05 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX TEE CIVIL SERVICE 807 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Statement -" D." 

Senior Third Class Clerk, with a Family of 11, on a Salary of $800 Per Annum. 

Expenses, 
month. 

Rent $12 00 

Fuel 4 50 

Food 37 50 

Clothing 11 75 

Schooling 5 50 

Medical Ex 2 00 

Church 1 95 

Recreation 50 

Insurance 3 52 

Lighting 1 00 

Superannuation 3 34 

Help 5 00 

Furnishings 3 50 

$92 06 
Income. 

Salarv, annum $800 00 

Other sources 292 72 

S1.092 72 

Expenses, per annum $1,104 72 

Loss per annum 12 00 

Expenses per month $ 92 06 

Salary from Department 66 66 

Loss per month $ 25 00 



Statement u E." 

Second Third Class Clerk with a Family of 4, on a Salary of $900 Per Annum. 

Expenses, 
month. 

Rent $20 00 

Fuel 5 60 

Food 21 00 

Clothing 6 00 

Schooling 

Medical expenses 5 00 

Church 3 33 

Recreation 83 

Insurance 7 00 

Lighting 1 00 

Superannuation 3 00 

Help 

Furnishings 5 00 

S77 76 

Income. 

Salary, annum , $ 900 00 

Rent of rooms ISO 00 

$1,080 00 
Expenses, annum 931 00 

Balance $ 149 00 

Without rent of rooms deficit would be per annum $ 31 00 



808 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 
Statement " F." 

Senior Third Class Clerk with a Family of 9, on a Salary of $900 Per Annum. 

Expenses, 
Month. 

Rent $15 00 

Fuel 6 87 

Gas, cooking 2 00 

Food 38 93 

Furnishings 1 25 

Clothing 12 00 

Schooling 50 

Medical expenses 2 15 

Church 2 50 

Recreation 1 10 

Insurance 1 00 

Superannuation 2 50 

Light 1 69 

Help 8 00 

Interest 1 58 

$97 07 

Income, 
month. 

Salary, annum $900 00 

Private income 160 00 

$1,060 00 

Expenses, annum 1,164 84 

Income, annum 1,060 00 

Deficit $104 84 

Expenses, month 97 07 

Salary, government 75 00 

Deficit $22 07 



Charlottetowx, P.E.I. 

Per 
annum. 

Rent $150 09 

Fuel 70 00 

Water 15 00 

Church 30 00 

Insurance 100 00 

House furnishings 25 00 

Help 75 00 

Food 320 00 

Clothing 150 00 

Schools 40 00 

Medical services 20 00 

Sundries 50 00 

Superannuation 30 00 

Recreation Nil 



$1,075 09 
Salary received from government 800 00 



Deficit $275 09 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 809 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

In the City of Quebec for one Year. 

House rent— at $12 per month $144 00 

Fuel 60 00 

Light - 18 00 

Sundry expenses, tenants, repairs 3 00 

Removal of snow 5 00 

Taxes — personal, &c, and water rates 27 00 

Food : 

1 large loaf of bread per day at 16c 65 70 

Meat average, 15 lbs. per week at 15c 117 00 

Butter " 6 " 25c 78 00 

Cheese " 1 " 15c 7 80 

Fish " 5 " 15c 39 00 

Tea and coffee 2 40c 41 60 

Sugar 6 " 5c 15 60 

Eggs 4 doz. " 25c 52 00 

Potatoes I bush. " 50c per bush 13 00 

Milk 7 qts. " 8c. per qt 29 12 

Vegetables 50c 26 00 

Pickles, sauces, jams, &c 25 00 

Fruits .' 10 00 

Cereals — Oatmeal, Force, &c 10 00 

Clothing : — 

Underwear — Parents, 8 suits per year 16 00 

Underwear — Children, 8 suits per year 10 00 

Sundry wearables — Ties, stockings, collars, shirts, &c 20 00 

Suits — Parents, hats, caps, dresses. &c 100 00 

Suits — Children's hats, caps, dresses. &c 30 00 

Footwear — Boots, rubbers, &c, for family 35 00 

Laundry 52 00 

Schooling 50 00 

Medical services 20 00 

Church expenses 30 00 

Recreation 25 00 

Insurance, Fire and Life 95 90 

Sundry expenses 25 00 

$1,294 82 

Memo of Living Expenses for a family of six (6) in Halifax for one year. 

House rent, flat $ 225 00 

Fuel 75 00 

Light, electric 25 00 

Food 360 00 

Clothing 80 00 

Taxes (including schools, etc.) 7 00 

Medical attendance 25 00 

Church, etc., expenses 20 00 

Insurance life 34 00 

Superannuation 16 00 

House furnishing, repairs, etc 50 00 

Help, (one girl) 75 00 

Sundries 50 00 

Recreation .. .. 

$1,042 00 

Salary from Government $ 850 00 

Rents — An increase of 25 per cent to 30 per cent since 1890-96. 

Extract of a letter written by a leading real estate agent in Ottawa : 

January, 1906. 
Dear Sir, — 

" As requested I have examined our books, extending back to the year 1S90 and 
find that rentals are now from 25 per cent to 30 per cent higher than then, more 



810 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

particularly is the increase noticeable with houses of medium size and rental (that's 
what the P. 0. clerk wants) . " I think my estimate is if anything below the average 
and will be as steady in advance in rents in the future as has been in the past." 
I can add nothing to that. 

Taxes. 

From enquires made at the City Hall the estimate given is that taxes have risen 
fully 15 per cent in the last ten years. 

Fuel. 

Please listen to the following quotations from J. Heney & Son, Ottawa : 



— 


Coal. 


Hard Wood. 


Soft Wood. 


Medium 

Wood. 


In 1800 

Tn 1906 


§ cts. 

6 50 

7 25 


$ cts. 
4 50 
6 00 


S cts. 

3 00 

4 00 


S cts. 
1 75 
3 00 



Last year we had our furnace going nearly 8 months. 

Comparison in prices of market produce for the years 1896, 1901 and 1906. 



Articles. 




Pork, per cwt $4.75 to $5.00 

Beef, hind quarters, lb 4|c. 

Lamb, quarters, lb 5c. to 7c. 

Beef, front quarters, lb 2Jc. 

Butter, pails, per lb 17c. to 18c. 

Butter, per lb. prints 20c. 

Eggs, per dozen 14c. to 16c. 

Potatoes, per bag 35c. to 45c. 

Turnips, per bag 35c. 

Grapes, per basket | 15c. 

Chickens, per pair . . 45c. to 65c. 

Turkeys, per lb ! 9c. to 12c. 



Ducks, per pair 
■Geese, apiece. . 



50c. to 75c. 
50c to 75c. 



$7.80 to S8.10 

5c. to 6c. 

6c. to 10c. 

3ic. to 4c. 

20c. to 22c. 

22c. to 25c. 

22c. to 23c. 

80c to SI. 00 

60c 



45c. to 65c 
9c to 12c 



•">0c. to 75c. 
50c. to 75c. 



1906. 



SS.00 to $8.50 

6|c. 

8c. to 12c. 

4c. 

25c. 

30c. 

25c. to 30c. 

90c. to S1.00 

60c. to 70c. 

30c. 

75c. to $1.00 

$1.25 to §1.50 

each. 

Sl.OO 

SI. 00 



The prices quoted above are market prices and are lower than store prices. 



Food. 



Meat has increased greatly. Steaks and roasts of beef have risen from 10c, and 
12, to 12£c, and 17c. Mutton and lamb, from 7c, and 10c, to 12c, and 15c lb. Pork 
about the same. Poultry is now out of reach of lower grades. 

Butter, eggs and cheese have risen greatly. In 1890 we could get eggs for 12c; 
to-day they are 25c to 30c. 

Cheese, 10c to 15c. These prices are on the market: you will pay more for them 
at the stores. 



ROYAL COM ill SSI OX OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 811 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Groceries. — Whilst in some lines there has been no increase — in others there has. 
Wholesale grocer quotes a rise of 10 per cent since 1890. 

Boots and shoes, &c. — In last 10 years 20 per cent. 

Dry goods. — In last 10 years, 10 per cent. 

Carpets. — In last 10 years, 5 per cent. 

Furniture in last 10 years, 10 per cent. 

Furs. — 100 per cent. 

These are quotations from a departmental store. Wages have risen 20 per cent 
In 10 years, in this store. 

Bread. — Price not gone up, but weight gone down. Loaf l£ lbs., formerly 2 lbs. 

Cakes. — About same proportion. Price same, but size reduced. 

Vegetables. — Hard to compare. This year very high. Potatoes used to be 50 
<;ents; this year $1.00, and will likely reach $1.50 this winter. 

Clothing. — Increase in custom made; ready-made not much higher. 

School. — Costs more now because we want better education. 

Medical expenses. — We live at a faster pace, consequently the machinery wants 
more repairing. Doctors' fees have risen. 

Church. — If we are getting better, we are going to church oftener, and conse- 
quently the plate comes round oftener. We are giving more to missions, &c. 

Becreation. — We are getting to realize that we are confined closer to our offices. 
We take more outdoor exercise and fresh air, more trips in the country now required. 

Insurance. — The rates for fire risks have risen. Life risks are higher. Let me 
quote figures : — 

1899 1906 

Straight life policy, 35 vears $26 10 $28 95 

Pay life policy 20 yearly 33 50 36 95 

Endowment policy 20 years 47 50 51 40 

Needs no comment. 

Light. — In 1890 coal oil was cheaper. To-day we must have electricity. P. O. 
clerks are expected to keep up with the times, except in regard to salaries. 

Superannuation. — Like the P. O. clerks, the Government must keep up with the 
times. Two per cent used to be the rate. Now 5 per cent. Like loyal subjects we 
submit. The rate goes up without our consent, but we have to ask for increase in 
salaries. 

Help. — Most of us do without help. Others cannot. Wages have risen. In 1890 
we could get a woman to do the washing for 50 cents a day. Now we pay 75 cents to 
$1.00 a day. Domestic servants from $4 and $5 to $8 and $12 per month. 

I can safely say that in the foregoing statements I have not exaggerated any one 
item, and I am willing to have all the prices tested. 

As regards the expenses which I have taken the trouble to give in detail, I may 
state they have been submitted to many prominent men in business and I have yet to 
find one who carefully analyzed my statements to say they were above the mark. All 
claim them too low. There was one gentleman, however, challenged the cost of food 
in ' Statement B,' so we went into the matter carefully together. You will observe the 
item in question amounts to $43 for 6 persons per month. Now let us see what that 
means. 

A family of 6 with 3 meals a day, equals 18 meals a day or 540 per month and 
that gives you about 8c. per meal per head. Not very high living. Let's go into the 
matter further — I paid a visit to the jail, but unlike most visitors to that institution, 
was let out again. Mr. Kehoe gave me the following particulars: 

A meal last year cost exactly 7 cents per head. This quarter it has increased to 
7i cents. Bemember the food is furnished by tender and is practically wholesale prices 
The cost given is for the bare cost of raw materials and is away below what we have 
to pay for the goods supplied. Of what do the meals consist you ask? 



812 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Breakfast. — 1 pint of oatmeal gruel with molasses, 1 pint of pea coffee (split peas 
ground) i lb. of bread. 

Dinner. — 6 ounces of cooked meat without bone, 8 ounces bread and 8 ounces 
potatoes. 

Tea. — 1 pint of oatmeal gruel, with molasses, 1 pint of pea coffee and 8 ounces 
bread. 

If you look at ' Statement D ' you will find the cost per meal there will be 3i cents 
per meal. That's high living. Only a few days ago one of the city papers stated that 
the prices on the market were 35 per cent higher this year than last. 

Mr. Whitney at Cornwall said to school teachers that 60 cents a few years ago 
was equal to $1.00 to-day. 

It costs the directors of ' The Old Men's Home ' on Bank street, $125 per head a 
year. This does not include interest on capital and does not include the donations of 
food and clothing. Xow at that rate a family of six would cost $750. The speaker 
has had the honour of having to maintain his family for the last twenty years on $650 
per annum, taxes and rent included. 

' There has been a gradual and positive advance in the price of commodities since 
1S90 all over the continent. The United States Bureau of Statisticians figure out the 
difference at 17*7 per cent for that country from 1S90 to 1905, which would mean that 
$S3 would go as far sixteen years ago as $100 would to-day. It is doubtful, however, 
whether, taking everything together, the increase has not been considerably greater in 
Montreal than the figures given by the United States Bureau. Rent, which may be 
reckoned at about twenty to twenty-five per cent of the ordinary man's monthly in- 
come, has certainly been advanced considerably. Houses that were fifteen dollars only 
a few years ago are now twenty, and in some cases more. This represents a rise of 
a third or over/ — Witness. 

' The weekly earnings of all classes of workmen have increased 42 per cent since 
1S90, according to figures officially given out at Washington.' 

I will read an extract from the Monetary Times of October 5, 1906: — 

' The high cost of commodities is another problem which takes a lot of solving for 
those in receipt of fixed incomes. While wages have gone up say 30 per cent, prices 
for the necessities of life have gone up about as much, which leaves things largely as 
before. Latest statistics show that there has been a slight reaction in the cost of 
necessaries during the past few months, but for all practical purposes the comparison 
holds good. Labour, while better off inasmuch as it has found full employment at 
good wages, has had to pay out a large proportion of its increased value in the shape 
of living expenses. For those with fixed incomes the problem of prosperity has been 
much more acute; they have had to pay one-third higher prices for everything they 
bought and no more money to do it with.' 

BANK CLERKS. 

A member of the Government once said to me that the ' outside service ' was better 
paid than ' bank clerks/ and I should like to discuss that with you, sir, in case you 
might be of that opinion. 

Xow, what are the facts? I find the hours are about similar and a number of 
other details such as holidays, sick leave, superannuation. &e., but when it comes to 
salaries there is a great discrepancy. The different banks are much the same as re- 
gards salaries. Some at the start pay $300 per annum; others $250, and some $200. 
I have prepared a statement showing a comparison with the salaries of the post office 
clerks, and it will speak for itself. Some banks pay a bonus in addition to the regular 
increase, and my statement will be found to be a fair one. One bank has received 
notice that the amount of salary a man must receive before he can marry has been 
raised $200, which shows the bank realizes the cost of living has greatly increased. 

Another bank manager told me that in the majority of cases a clerk would reach 
$1,000 in seven years. Bank of Montreal increased salaries 20 per cent to 30 per cent 
in last five years. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 



813 



SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Comparison between salary of a Bank Clerk and a Post Office Clerk. 



Years. 



Bank Clerk. 



P.O. Clerk. 





Salary. 


Bonus. 


Total. 


Salary. 


1 


S 

200 

300 

400 

500 

600 

700 

800 

900 

1,000 

1,100 

1,200 

1,300 

1,300 

10,360 


$ 


$ 

200 
300 
100 
500 

600 

700 

800 

900 

1,150 

1,205 

1,380 

1,495 

1,560 


s 

400 


2 




400 


3. 




500 


4 




550 


6 . 




600 
650 


7 

8 


150 
' 165 

180 
195 
260 

950 


700 
750 


9 


800 


10 


850 


11 


990 


12 

13. . 


950 
1,000 






11,250 


9,100 



Total, Bank Clerk § 11,250 

Total, P.O. Clerk 9,100 

S 2,150 
Bank Clerk receives S2,150 in 13 years more than P.O. Clerk. 

Average Bank Clerk, salary per annum, S 865 

Average P . O. Clerk, salary per annum 700 

The statement I have prepared goes no higher than $1,300, but an accountant or 
manager would of course exceed that. In one bank there are over 1,000 employees, 
and 10 per cent of this number are accountants or managers. 

In a bank one man handles the cash ; in the post office I might say all the em- 
ployees handle articles of value, and in some branches as much money is handled in a 
day as many banks do. 

SCHOOL TEACHERS. 

It has often been said that school teachers are the worst paid class of people in 
the country, but a comparison with the post office clerk will not bear out that state- 
ment. 



School Teacher. 


P.O. Clerk. 


Year. 


Amount. 


Year. 


Amount. 


1 


S 
640 


1.. 


S 

400 
450 


2 

3 


680 
720 


2 


3.. 


500 


4 


760 

800 
840 
880 
920 
960 
1,000 

8,200 


4 


550 


5 

6 


6 


600 
650 




7 


700 


8 


8 


750 


9 


9.. 


800 


10 


10.. 


850 










6,250 



814 ROYAL COMMISSIOy OX THE CITIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

10 years school teacher gets $ 8,200 

10 years post office clerk gets 6.250 

In favour of school teacher $ 1,950 

AVERAGE DURING 10 YEARS. 

School teacher $ 820 

Post office clerk 625 

School teacher receives $195 more per annum than post office clerk. 
This is based on salary paid a second class teacher. On a first-class certificate 
difference would be greater. 

The increase in teachers' salaries in the city of Ottawa since 1899 is 27 per cent.. 

erne OFFICIALS. 

Salaries to clerks in Ottawa during the past 5 years have risen 20 per cent. 

In 1902 in presenting our case to Sir Wm. Mulock, I said we must remember that 
in addition to being Postmaster General, he was Minister of Labour. May I today 
take the liberty of drawing your attention to the fact that your responsibilities are 
even greater, for in addition to holding the positions referred to, you must also add 
a portion of the Department of Justice, and I hope in considering our claims you will 
remember your triple responsibilities. 

In the banks a bonus is paid when business is prospering and the least the de- 
partment can do is to follow their example and give the post office clerks a substantial 
increase, something tnat will enable them to do their work more cheerfully and show- 
ing them that the faithful discharge of their duties will no longer go unrewarded. 

If I could only express to you in words what I have witnessed during the time 
I have been employed in the post office, of the hardships, trials and anxieties of many 
of the men on account of their small salaries, how they have struggled to make both 
ends meet, in many cases failing, and how little their grievances have been remedied, 
I am sure, sir, I could touch your heart, but I feel a ' better day is coming.' I feel 
that the Government have realized that something must be done, and done at once, 
for you must admit that to a great many it is getting serious — when a man is trying 
to do his best and finds he is getting behind financially it is serious. We have to 
ask, I will not say beg, for relief, and in this age, ' an age of sunny ways.' I am sure 
the Government will do what it can to better the position of those who are now under- 
paid. 

May I thank you, sir, for the kindness you have shown us today and the willing- 
ness you have evinced before in listening to our demands, and I tru3t that the ad- 
ministration of this great department will add to your laurels and may our hearts 
today be filled with joy as we go out to send the ne.vs to our fellow clerks that the 
Postmaster General has acceded to our request and that he will ' render unto Csesar- 
the things that are Caesar's.' 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX TEE CIVIL SERVICE 815 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. £9a 



Ottawa, June 21, 1907. 

Mr. William Henry Pexxock, of the City Post Office Service, called and sworn 
and examined. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Mr. Pennock, you are a first-class clerk? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. In the City Post Office Service at Ottawa ?— A. Yes. sir. 

Q. There are only two first-class clerks, you and Mr. Mercer '. — A. Yes. 

Q. You were appointed on the 2nd of May, 1878? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That is to say you have been 29 years in the service V—. A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You went in in the old days when it was an ordinary post office, did you not?- 
— A. No, it was a Government post office when I went in. 

Q. It was uot very long after that I know. What did you go in at ? — A. I think I 
was appointed at $800. 

Q. And after thirty years of arduous service all that you get now is? — A. $1,500, 
the maximum salary of a first-class clerk in the outside service. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. Is that the maximum? — A. Yes, that is the maximum. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. You came in in the good old days before there was a Civil Service Act or Civil 
Service examination or anything of that kind? — A. I think at that time in order to 
get promotion you had to pass an examination almost the same as the qualifying ex- 
amination, when they brought in the first Civil Service Act. 

Q. How many promotion examinations have you passed? — A. I cannot remember 
they are so numerous, and just now they are giving us an examination every year. I 
have to pass an annual examination to retain my rank. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. That will be on the duties of the office ? — A. Yes. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. You are Chief of the Money Order and Savings Branch? — A. Yes, of course 
we take in all the money in our office. 

Q. Xot for stamps? — A. For the stamp sales, and everything. 

Q. What is the amount of cash you receive in the course of the year at the city 
post office ? — A. The last year it amounted to $1,279,717.76. 

Q. Divide that, how much for money orders, for instance? — A. Money orders is- 
sued, $229,551.12; savings bank deposits, $866,770; stamp sales, $115,97S; postal 
notes sold, $67,41S.31 ; and I have estimated the free matter as $60,000. Mr. Bates 
tells me that the free matter in our office is fully one half of the total, but I have not 
included that in the total. 

Q. The free matter is the Government correspondence which would bring the total 
up very largely? — A. It would bring up the total revenue, but I have not included it 
in the total, of course. 

Q. The postal notes are so much money '. — A. Yes, the postal notes sales, they ar6 
so much cash taken in over the counter. 



816 ROYAL COMMISSION OX TEE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. I do not know exactly how the postal notes are payable — are they payable to 
bearer '. — A. No, payable to the person named and not transferable. 

Q. That is to say, if you buy a postal note payable say in Toronto .A. Yes, 

payable to John Smith. 

Q. 'To John Smith, Toronto, he simply signs his name '. — A. He cannot endorse it 
to any one, but he can sign it. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Is it more than an ordinary money order '. — A. A money order can be endorsed. 

Q. The banks redeem a great many of them ( — A. Yes, they take both postal notes 
and money orders. 

Q. They will not redeem a postal note '. — A. They put their stamp on it and we 
take it. 

Q. But holding them responsible '. — A. Holding them responsible. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. A postal note is practically a note for a certain amount of money named on 
*he face of it '. — A. Yes. 

Q. It is not a blank like a money order? — A. Xo. 

Q. It has the amount printed on the face of it, now what amount of postal notes 
have you in your possession at one time '. — A. Do you mean in dollar-; 

Q. Yes '. — A. Well, our sales are about $250 a day and we keep a month's supply 
on hand as a rule. 

Q. That is about $7,500?— A. Yes. 

Q. That is practically all cash like bank notes; — A. Yes, we have to account for 
every one of them. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. They have to be filled in though. They are the same as bank notes practically, 
but what I want to know is how much cash you have on hand in these postal notes ? — 
A. These postal notes are only given for the sums named on the face of them, for in- 
stance if a person wants to send a postal note for $5.09 he buys a $5 postal note and 
attaches to it postage stamps for the odd amount of nine cents. 

By the Chahfaan: 

Q. The $5 postal note is like a bank note for $5? — A. Yes, only payable to the 
person named. 

Q. In whose custody are those postal notes, how are they kept? — A. They are kept 
in my custody. 

Q. Are they kept in a vault '. — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Is there any joint custodian with you ; — A. Xo, I carry the keys. 

Q. Supposing anything were to happen to you. that you were sick one day, what 
then '. — A. I would have to send them the keys. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Supposing there was anything wrong, supposing another man takes the keys, 
would he check over your accounts '. — A. When I go away on my holidays, my assist- 
ant checks it over and satisfies himself he has got all that is in the books. Every month 
we have to balance the whole stock; the postmaster and assistant postmaster and my- 
self have to make a check once a month of everything, stamps, notes, everything. 

Q. But if you were sick for a day, would not the man who takes your keys have 
to go over the whole thing and check it '. — A. Xo, it has not been the custom; of course 
he knows it is all there; if he was taking it up for any length of time it would be 
necessary. But if it is only for a short time he does not do so. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 817 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. From one month's end to another it is entirely under your control? — A. Yes. 

By Mr. Bazin: 
Q. And you will be responsible yourself? — A. I suppose that the postmaster is 
really responsible, but I would be held for it. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. That is the custom of the department? — A. I think the money order clerk in 
every city post office is the same. 

Q. Are these postal notes numbered consecutively? — A. Yes, and we also have 
the check letters, that is they are numbered in series. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. You keep a check of everything that is issued? — A. Yes. 

Q. And when they are paid they come back to you to be cancelled? — A. They 
come to us, and the banks send them in to us, we check them off and send them in to 
the department. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. A postal note payable in Toronto does not come back to you? — A. No, it goes 
back to the department through the city post office. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. How do you know then when to mark them off? 

The Chairman. — He does not mark them off. He issues a postal note payable in 
Toronto, they cash it there and send it to the Post Office Department here; he sends a 
return to the Post Office Department of all postal notes issued by him. 

Mr. Fyshe. — And they compare the two returns and mark them off? 

The Chairman. — Yes, he has nothing to do with it except to issue the order; he 
has nothing to do with the payment. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. If a Toronto man sends a postal note payable here then you pay it and send 
it to the department, and the department checks it off with the return from Toronto, 
you have nothing to do with the adjusting of accounts between the different post 
offices? — A. No, but these figures I have given represent the amount of cash handled 
in our office. 

Q. Yes, what I was coming down to was how much cash you put through your 
office in a year?— A. $1,279,000. 

Q. And in postal notes you have $7,500 on the average in cash, these are in dif- 
ferent denominations, printed on the face of them, and are kept in the vaults ? — A. Yes. 

Q. And you are the sole custodian, and once a month the postmaster and deputy 
postmaster here check it over with you? — A. That is right. 

Q. And you render a daily statement to the department of the sales of postal 
notes, the issue of money orders, and the deposits in the savings bank? — A. Yes, and 
the post office inspector also inspects our office twice a year. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. How much value do you say you have on hand all the time? — A. $7,500 in 
postal notes on the average, we try to keep enough on hand to last a month. 

Q. You can get them replaced just as you want them? — A. Yes. 

Q. Who do you get them from? — A. From the accountant of tbe Post Office De- 
partment. 

29a— 52 



818 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CITIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. He has them locked up in the vaults, I suppose; he gets them from the printer? 
— A. He gets them from the American Bank Note Company, who print them. 

Q. They are very much like currency? — A. Very much, when they are once signed 
if a responsible person gets them he can hand them over as cash, provided they are 
presented by somebody we know, they are accepted. 

Q. They are practically a crossed cheque? — A. They can be crossed, too. 

Q. Yes, I know. They serve the same purpose as a crossed cheque. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. The difference between a money order and a postal note is that a postal note 
has its value printed on it and tbe money order is in blank, to be filled in for the de- 
sired amount? Well, the money orders are issued by the accountant of the depart- 
ment, like the postal notes? — A. Yes, in blank books. 

Q. How many do they issue at a time? — A. Usually twenty books with 100 orders 
in each. 

Q. When you send in your requisition to the superintendent of the Money Order 
Branch he sends you about 2,000 blank money orders in books like cheque books? — A. 
Yes. 

Q. And as the public come in for Money Orders you fill them up ? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you advise the Superintendent of the Money Order Branch of the daily 
issue? — A. Yes, and we send advice to the Post Office at which they are payable. 

Q. That is right, and if a servant girl here buys a Money Order from you, payable 
in Montreal, you advise that office of the issue? — A. Yes, but with a Postal Note of 
course that has the amount on the face of it and there is no need of advice in that case. 

Q. And what about stamp sales? You get stamps from what officer? — A. The 
superintendent of the Postage Stamp Branch. I might also mention about the Postal 
Notes, that we supply what are called non-accounting offices with Postal Notes from 
our office. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. What do you call a non- accounting office? — A. A place like Britannia Bay, 
where no account is sent to the Department. 

By the Chairman: 
Q. Do they issue these notes? — A. Yes, they issue the notes but they do not report; 
they issue the notes but have to send in the cash with their order. 

By Mr. Fysli e : 

Q. You supply them with blank forms ?— A. Yes, when they send in their requisi- 
tion with the cash we send them a blank form and envelope for the next time. 

Q. Have you any more to say about Postal Notes ?— A. No, except that the amount 
issued to the non-accounting offices is included in the total. 

Q. As the amount is printed on the Postal Notes you have to send them a variety 
of values? — A. Yes, we send them a variety. 

By Mr. Bazin: 

Q. And thev send you the cash? — A. Yes. 

Q. What denominations are the Postal Notes?— 20 cents, 25 cents, 30 cents, 40 
cents, 50 cents, 60 cents, 70 cents, 80 cents, 90 cents, $1.00, $1.50, $2.00, $2.50, 
$3.00, $4.00, $5.00, and up to $10.00. You can pay all sums of money and can make up 
the odd amount by adding postage stamps. 

By Mr. Fyshe. 

Q. They are intended to provide for small transactions ?— A. Yes, instead of send- 
ing cash through the mails, that is the intention, to avoid the risk of sending cash. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OH TEE CITIL SERVICE 819 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. As a rule do you not find that cash going through the mails is wonderfully 
safe? — A. "Well, I think it is, but if it is lost, it is lost. 

Q. But there is not as much chance of its being lost when registered? — A. No, 
there is not as much chance but there is often a dispute, a man says he only got 
$5.00 in a registered letter and the man at the other end says he sent $10.00. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Gradually the practice of sending cash through the mails is dying away? — 
A. Yes. 

Q. What is the commission on Postal Notes and Money Orders? — A. It is a 
little cheaper if you have to buy one Note only to send a Postal Note, but if you have 
to send more than one in order to make up the amount you want, it becomes higher 
than the Honey Order. 

Q. What is the commission on a Postal Note? — A. On a $10.00 note you would 
have to pay 5 cents and if you buy a Money Order for the same amount it is 6 cents. 
But if you were sending a large amount like $100 the commission would be 30 cents 
for the Money Order and you would have to send ten $10 Postal Notes and pay 5 cents 
for each. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 
Q. That is a little dearer than a bank draft ? — A. Yes. a little dearer.. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Does that rate apply to the Yukon now as well as to other places? — A. Yes, 
for orders payable in the Yukon, but when they issue orders they charge double com- 
mission. 

Q. But practically your rate for money order business all over Canada i? the 
same at the present day, the only exception being in the case of orders issued in the 
Yukon ? — A. Yes, on foreign orders the minimum rate is 5 cents, you can send up 
to $5 on that. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. Can you transfer money to England for that ? — A. Yes, up to $5 it is 5 cents. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Do you now issue many money orders in favour of the relatives of Italians 
who have come out here ? — A. Yes, a great many of them. 

Q. Those Italian labourers in sending money +o their families use the money 
order office a great deal ? — A. Yes, also the Austrian, we did not have so many Aus- 
trians until the last few years, now we have a great number of them, they all seem 
to be a very thrifty sort of people and send almost all their spare money home. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. Well, in sending money to England it will be payable in sterling of course ? — 
A. Yes, we issue it in our currency and it goes through the exchange office where 
they convert it into sterling. 

Q. Do you collect here the exact rate of exchange ? — A. I collect the money, if 
a man wants to send $5 to anyone we take his money and give him an order, and the 
Exchange Office will put on it the amount in sterling before it goes over. 

Q. How much will he get on the other side ? — A. The payee will get £1.0.7 in 
England for the $5. 

By the Chairman : 
Q. There is in the city post office the International Money Order Exchange ? — 
A. Yes. 

29a— 52i 



820 20YAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. What is the man called who is in charge of it — Mr. Dupuis ? — A. I do not 
know the name of the man in charge now, the Exchange Office used to be in Montreal 
for this district ; it has recently been moved to Ottawa. 

Q. Does he collect the exchange on the money orders ? — A. Yes, all the foreign 
orders go through his office. 

Q. Is that office attached to the department or to the city post office ? — A. To 
the city post office. 

Q. Is that for convenience ? — A. Yes. 

Q. How long has that arrangement been in existence ? — A. 40 years, Mr. Bouret 
is the man who used to be in Montreal. He had been there as long as I have been in 
Ottawa. 

Q. Now then we will come to the savings bank. A depositor comes in and puts 
$2 or $3 in and you notify the Savings Bank Branch at once ? — A. We send in the 
return every day. 

Q. Then the savings bank branch of the department notifies the depositor im- 
mediately of the amount received ? — A. Yes. 

Q. When a depositor, we will say it is a servant girl, leaves Ottawa and goes to 
Winnipeg and she wants to withdraw her money from here you can arrange, through 
the department, for the transfer to Winnipeg can you not ? — A. There is no transfer 
required, the pass book can be presented at any savings bank office, the only thing is 
that the application for withdrawal would in that case have to go to Ottawa. 

Q. Where the account originated? — A. Where the books are kept. 

Q. Then, as I understand it, if this servant girl moves from Ottawa to Winnipeg 
she takes her book up there. You do not go through the formality of paying off the 
account here and reopening it at Winnipeg. If she wants to withdraw money after 
getting to Winnipeg, what happens then ? — A. She goes to the post office and fills up a 
form of application for her money. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. And shows her pass books ?:A. She need not do that, she is not supposed to do 
that although it is done in practice. That application is addressed to the Postmaster 
General at Ottawa, it comes down here through the mail, and they charge her account 
and send the cheque to the Postmaster at Winnipeg for the amount she asks for, and 
she gets her money. 

Q. Supposing the pass book gets into the wrong hands? — A. When she opens her 
account they have her declaration and they have her signature which she makes at 
that time; she states her occupation, whether married or single, and other particulars. 
If there is any doubt or suspicion when they compare the signature on the application 
for withdrawal with the original signature given when the account was opened, she is 
required to be specially identified before she can get the cheque at Winnipeg. 

By the Chairman: 
Q. Then the system is that when a depositor opens an account in the Post Office 
Savings Bank the signature is taken and the post office advises the department of the 
initial deposit, and also of all subsequent deposits, if made in the same place, and the 
department notifies the depositor that the amount has been received and credited to 
the account. Then if the depositor wishes to withdraw any money he gets a form at 
the post office, fills up the form and sends it to the Post Office Department and the de- 
partment issues the cheque. No money passes through your hands in connection with 
the department except as deposits, or when you might cash these cheques? — A. As a 
rule we cash these cheques. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. What do you do with the money you receive, how often do you send it to the 
Finance Department? — A. We deposit to the credit of the Receiver General in the 
Bank of Montreal. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 821 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. Every day? — A. Yes, every day. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. The department gets the original and duplicate and the triplicate goes to the 
Finance Department daily, then about the stamps, when you want stamps you make a 
requisition on the chief clerk or the superintendent of the postal stamps branch, don't 
you? — A. Yes. 

Q. What amount of stamps do you get from him at a time? — A. I suppose we 
usually get about $5,000 worth at a time. 

Q. Those are divided into .A. A half cent, ones, twos, fives, sevens, tens, 

twenties, and fifties. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. But mostly in ones and twos? — A. Yes. 
Q. And does the American Bank Note Co. print all those too? — A. Yes. 

By the Chairman: 
Q. How often are the stamps verified? — A. We count them every day in our office. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Every day? — A. Yes, that is we do not count the big stock in the office every 
day, but we always count the stock in use. 

Q. You treat it as a banker would treat his daily cash? — A. Yes, we have a petty 
cash account and we take a thousand dollars out of our vault and we put it in the 
petty cash, and we balance that every day. 

Q. The system is pretty thorough, I suppose? — A. It is very good, there has not 
been a dollar lost in the Ottawa post office in my time. 

Q. That is very satisfactory. — A. Yes. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. What do you call your daily turnover in cash here? — A. You mean the amount 
you deposit? 

Q. Yes, you deposit daily, and you say it is $1,250,000 during the year? — A. That 
ij' not all cash you know. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. What will it be? — A. I mean we cash savings bank cheques and pay money 
orders and postal notes out of that, but of course we deposit the cheques in the Bank 
of Montreal. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Taking the bank cheques and everything else, what is the amount per day I — 
A. I suppose it runs from $5,000 to $6,000 per day. 

Q. Then you have also got up comparisons with other cities, Toronto being $2,- 
000,000? — A. Yes, I wanted to show the different places that went over $1,000,000; 
Montreal had $1,740,000, Winnipeg, $1,350,000, then Ottawa comes in, and then Van- 
couver with $776,000 ; Hamilton $584,000, and Victoria $283,000. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. These are all the big offices and you have given us the amount of the year's 
transactions in each place? — A. That is in point of volume of business. Leaving the 
latter three out would give those that went over $1,000,000. 



822 ROYAL COMMISSIOX OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 
By the Chairman: 

Q. Although you have given the aggregate showing of each place you have men- 
tioned, when you come to enter into details there is a great difference in the business 
transacted. Take Winnipeg, for instance, more than one half of the total amount is 
in money orders? — A. Yes. 

Q. That is on account of the large number of immigrants that come in there, and 
the same thing happens in Vancouver, where out of $776,000 they have $576,000 in 
money orders, so that while they stand in the order named in the aggregate, it is differ- 
ent when you take the details? — A. Yes. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. This illustrates the benefit the bank system is to the Government, if it were 
not that you have the Bank of Montreal at all these places you would have to forward 
all this money and have special officers for the purpose ? — A. I want to prove from this 
that while there has been an enormous increase in the business in these principal' 
offices in Canada the salaries have remained the same since Confederation. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. To do this work of which you are the chief, you get a salary of $1,500 per an- 
num? — A. Yes. 

Q. The only possible promotion you could get here would be in the event of Mr. 
Bates dying and the appointment coming to you, that you could get $2,000? — A. Yes. 

Q. He is next beyond you? — A. Yes. 

Q. And that is the only possibility of an increase in your position? — A. At present. 

Q. How long has this scale beeen $1,500 as the maximum for a first-class clerk? — 
A. It was made so at Confederation, when the Post Office Act was passed in 1867. 

Q. Then for forty years the scale of a first-class clerk in the city post office has re- 
mained at $1,500?— A. Yes. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. Have you any idea how it was fixed? — A. By Act of Parliament, I suppose the 
Postmaster General brought in a Bill to regulate the salaries. 

By the Chairman: 
Q. At all events we are at the point that the maximum salary of a first-class clerk 
in the city post office is $1,500 ? — A. Yes. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. And that it was fixed forty years ago? — A. Yes. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. And the only possibility of going up in your case is if Mr. Bates happened to 
resign or give out, and he is a man of 67, it cannot be very long before he goes out, 
you may possibly succeed him? — A. Yes. 

Q. But you cannot get the postmastership ? — A. ISTo. 

Q. In no case can you get the postmastership or be moved out of Ottawa? — A. 
Oh, yes, it is not against the law. 

Q. But it is against the custom? — A. Yes, some other post office would object. 

Q. And some other local influence would object? — A. Yes. 

Q. Once a boy goes into the city post office if he chooses to remain in the service 
and has not enterprise enough to get out, he climbs up to the limit 

Mr. Fyshe. — With painful effort. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 823 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 
By the Chairman: 

Q. He climbs up to the limit of a first-class clerkship after thirty years' service 
or so, is not that the case? — A. That is the case. 

Q. In the case of the city post office, the patronage lies with the members sup- 
porting the Government here? — A. Yes. 

Q. And the same would apply to Kingston, the parties supporting the Govern- 
ment would have the patronage there. Therefore when a vacancy happened the other 
day in Kingston on the death of the postmaster, it is notorious that the postmaster was 
appointed on the nomination of the Patronage Committee. You could not have got 
that position? 

Mr. Fyshe. — And there was a deputy there who could not get it either. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Yes, and if anything happens to the postmaster here in Ottawa, or whenever it 
comes to his time for retirement, no man in the office can get that position. Xow, com- 
ing to another thing, you of course being one of the older servants, are under the old 
system of superannuation? — A. Yes. 

Q. If anything happened to you, your family would get nothing under the law? — 
A. Xo. 

Q. A person appointed under the city post office now comes under the retirement 
fund? — A. Yes. 

Q. He contributes towards that fund and 4 per cent is added to it? — A. Yes. 

Q. Is there an unwillingness on the part of young men to enter the service in 
the city post offices \ — A. Yes, I have prepared a statement here. They found they 
could not get persons to apply, young men to apply for clerkships, who had passed the 
qualifying examination, on account of the small pay in the outside service. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. The pay is $500?— A. Xo, $400. 

Q. That is in the outside, this is the inside ? — A. Yes, the maximum and minimum 
in all classes is less in the outside than the inside, the reason why I could never under- 
stand. In the inside service a man in my class can go to $1,900, and I could never un- 
derstand why it should be. 

Q. Xor anybody else? — A. The man who happens to get into the inside service 
can get $400 more in the same class in the inside, than I can get in the outside, and I 
maintain that the man outside has more responsibility. 

Q. He can easily have that anyway? — A. Yes. We have been kicking for some 
time, and trying to get that altered. We waited on Sir Wilfrid Laurier a year ago 
and pointed this out to him ; he said it was the first he had ever heard of it from any- 
body, but they have not yet corrected it. Sir Wilfrid said if there was a wrong he 
would have it righted that session or the next, but instead of that, it has been put off 
again, and I hope you Gentlemen will help us along. I said that young men would 
not enter the service at $400, good men that have pased the qualifying examination, 
and they appoint men at $1.25 a day to Grade A in the outside service and they do not 
ask them to pass the qualifying examination for entrance to the service. The result 
is they get a lower class of people. 

Q. They get cheaper people? — A. A cheaper labouring class, and if they show any 
ability at all they advance them by these grades, A. B. C. D. and E. 

Q. When was this alteration made? — A. I think it was two years ago. 

By the Chairman : 
Q. At all events to meet the inability, that is what we are trying to get at, of 
getting third class clerks on the old scale owing to the development of the country 
and all that, and the want of applicants to come in, this new system has been recently 
devised? — A. Yes. 



824 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. And they come in without examination or anything? — A. Without any quali- 
fying examination at all, they are appointed to these grades. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. This a fine exhibition of Government? — A. They could get cheaper men, you 
understand that way, and if they show any ability at all they are promoted to clerk- 
ships on passing the preliminary examination in reading, writing, &c. It opens the 
back door to filling the outside with an inferior class of employees. 

By Mr. Bazin : 
Q. And for that privilege they lower pay? — A. After they get into clerkships they 
get the same pay as men appointed under the old regulations. 

By the Chairman: 
Q. Mr. Allen told us that in his case the result of the change is that an experi- 
enced clerk, like you for instance, in addition to the ordinary work which you have 
for years had to do, you now have to do the work of these lower grade men who are 
sent in nominally to help you? — A. Yes, if they are not able to do it. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Do you find that this degradation, as we may call it, of the service, has made 
it more difficult for competent men in the department inasmuch as the inferior class 
of men being unable to do their work, it makes more for the competent men to do? 
— A. Yes, that is so. 

Q. The work of all the incompetents? — A. Yes. 

By the Chairman: 
Q. What are your office hours? — A. From 8 a.m. to six in the evening. That is 
another thing that we haye to thank the law for. We have to open at 8 o'clock in the 
morning. Of course I believe in the principle of asking the public to do business 
within reasonable office hours; but once you open the office at 8 o'clock in the morning 
to please somebody who wants it opened at that time for his particular convenience, 
you might as well keep it open all night, because there are people who would come 
there late at night as well as early in the morning. At the time that order was given 
I felt badly about it, because I had to take week about with my assistant in coming 
down at 8 o'clock in the morning, which in the winter time is very disagreeable. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. And you work until six at night? — A. No, I do not work until six every night, 
because we balance our cash as soon as the rush of business is over, and we take turn 
about in going off at five. The business practically stops at five, and although we take 
everything up to six o'clock, we balance up the account every day as soon as the rush 
is over, and one of us goes home. 

Q. You lock up the money? — A. Yes. 

Q. When did this eight o'clock business begin? — A. Two years ago. 

Q. What were your hours before that? — A. From nine until four. 

Q. Do you think that a reasonable time was allowed the public to do business 
under the old hours. How many people as a rule come in daily between eight and nine ? 
— A. There may be two or three, but of course when the office is open it will get so that 
it will increase, the custom will grow, so that a man knowing that the post office is 
open at eight o'clock will drop in at that time on his road to the market instead of 
coming in later, as he used to. It is the same with the late hours. If you leave the 
office open late people will get in the habit of coming late. 

The Chairman. — Whatever wisdom there was in establishing this new system, now 
that it is in operation it is most unlikely to be abolished. 



ROYAL COMMISSIOX OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 825 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Of course that may be the tendency, but it seems to me there would be no 
difficulty whatever in your establishing pretty much the same hours as the bank? — 
A. There would be no difficulty, and on Saturday we have to stay until six o'clock too. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Do you work in your office on Sunday ? — A. No. 

Q. What are your holidays ? — A. Three weeks. 

Q. Do you take them? — A. Yes. 

Q. Can you take them all together? — A. Usually I do take them all together. 

Q. Who takes your place when you are away? — A. Mr. Bell, a very good man. 
does it. 

Q. He is a senior third-class clerk? — A. Yes. 

Q. Have you anything to do with the letter carriers in your department? — A. 
No, sir. 

Q. Mr. Pennock, you have given us very good information; you will have a copy 
of this evidence to revise, and if you like to add anything we will be very glad to 
receive it? — A. I would like to mention the case of the young lady clerks. 

Q. You have only a few there ? — A. I have two. and another injustice that I want 
to point out as between the inside and the outside service is that these young lady 
clerks do responsible work in my office and they cannot go higher than $S00 in the out- 
side service, whereas if they were in the inside service they could go to $1,100. They 
feel very badly that because they work in the outside service they should be stepped at 
$800. 

Q. The third-class clerks in the inside service can only get $700, and in comparison 
nine-tenths of the lady clerks are in third-class clerkships? — A. Yes. that is quite 
true, but some of them have gone into the class beyond. Of course the ones I have are 
old employees. 

Q. Mr. Allen, who was here yesterday, said that as a rule women could do very 
little, they could not do the ordinary work for a city post office? — A. That may be 
true as regards handling mail bags, but in my branch, the Money Order Branch, they 
are very useful. 

Q. But as a rule in a city post office the work is stamping and handling mail bags, 
&c, and they could not do it, and of course they are mere incidents in the city post 
office? — A. Well, that may be so. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Have you some ideas ? Wouldn't you like to put in writing some sugges- 
tions for the improvement of the department? — A. Yes, I would. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. I have already told you that when you have your evidence handed to you for 
revision whatever suggestions or additions you have to make we will be glad to receive 
them? — A. I would like to recommend that they abolish the mode of entrance to the 
outside service without the qualifying examination. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Of course you have had long experience, and I would like to get your opinion 
of that? — A. They will never elevate the service by that means, if you insist upon a 
high standard of entrance, with corresponding pay, you can get good men into it, and 
then you will elevate the service. 

Q. And give them a chance of promotion ? — A. Yes. 



826 ROYAL COMMISSIOX OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Supplementary evidence of Mr. W. H. Pexxock. 

Regarding the classification of clerks and increase of salary the following scale is 
recommended : — 

4th Class Appointed at $600 with a yearly increase of $50 to $800 

3rd Class " $800 " " $50 to $1,100 

2nd Class " $1,100 " " $50 to $1,500 

1st Class " $1,500 " " $50 to $1,900 

To meet present conditions an immediate increase of ten per cent to salaries 
should be allowed. 

The department has laid down the following rules in regard to leave of absence to 
newly appointed employees: — 

(1) No employee can obtain statutory leave of absence, or any portion thereof, 
until he has served full six months from the date of his probationary appointment. 

(2) After six months of permanent employment an employee may obtain one 
week's leave as a portion of the statutory three weeks' leave of absence. 

(3) After one year of permanent employment an employee may, if he has already 
had one week's leave, be granted the remaining two weeks of the statutory leave of 
absence, or the full three weeks if he has not had any previous leave; and no further 
leave can be granted until the expiration of the second year of permanent employment 
when three weeks' leave may be granted either at one time, or in such portion as may 
best suit the exigencies of the service. 

Thus with the exception of one week's leave granted, or which may be granted, 
at the conclusion of six months' service, the statutory leave accruing from the first 
year of service will fall within the second year of service, and the leave accruing from 
the second year of service will fall within the third year of service, and so on.' 

It is recommended that the annual leave to newly appointed employees be granted 
as follows: — 

' That the portion of annual leave due the employee in the calendar year in which 
he is appointed be granted within that year, and that the full annual leave for the 
second year be granted within that year, and so on; thus, for the portion of the first 
year, if the clerk is appointed during the first quarter he should receive seventy-five 
per cent of the annual leave; if appointed during the second quarter he should receive 
fifty per cent, and if appointed during the third quarter he should receive twenty-five 
per cent.' 

At present when an employee is absent through illness his salary is withheld for 
the time of his absence until permission to pay him is obtained from the department. 

In case of such absence, when a medical certificate is furnished, and the Post- 
master is satisfied that the employee is unable to perform his official duties and re- 
commends in his report to the department that the employee should be paid his salary 
during the time of his absence, it is respectfully requested that the salary should not 
be withheld but paid to the employee at the regular time of paying salaries. 

Post Office, Ottawa, June 6, 1907. 

The Civil Service Commission, 
Ottawa. 

Gextlemen, — I beg to bring to your attention the pay of first-class clerks, outside 
service, in charge of money order and savings bank business, in city post offices. The 
maximum salary is $1,500, the same as at confederation, notwithstanding the work has 
increased to such an extent that in the principal cities the receipts are now over a 
million dollars a year each. I beg to submit that the maximum should be increased 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 



827 



SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

to $1,900, the same as in the inside service, for first-class clerks, and a chief clerkship 
should be made, for the clerk in charge of the money order and savings bank business, 
in cities where the receipts are over a million dollars a year. 

I am, gentlemen, 

Your obedient servant, 

W. H. PEXXOCK, 

M.O. Clerk, Ottawa P.O. 




Money order- 
Savings Bank Dept. 

Stamp sales 

Postal notes sold . . . 



5 cts. 

338 95 

355. 'i7i. 

1,194,382 16 
1"7.768 80 



Montreal. 



576,337 41 

458,919 00 

646,009 11 

59.S43 32 



mmpe^. 



■-' 

747.^2 92 
104,135 00 
376,5- _ 



2,076,659 91 1.741.1m- 84 1,357,244 14 



Ottawa. 



Money orders issued . 
Savings Bank Dept . . 

Stamp sales 

Postal notes sold 



Free matter . 



$ cts. 

551 42 

866,77" 00 

115,978 03 

67,418 31 

1.27:'. 717 76 
"00 00 



Vancouver. 



I cts. 

587,197 8 

28 
107,480 06 



"6,305 92 



Hamilton . 



I cts. 

225.2"! 56 
220,130 00 
139,42 



584,760 59 



Money orders issued . 
Savings Bank Dept. 
Stamp sales 



Victoria 
776 15 
J46 21 



277 36 



Ottawa, June 21, 1907. 

Mr. A. IT. Dupuis, of the International Money Order Exchange Office, called, 
sworn and examined : — 



By the Chairman : 

Q. \Vhere are you stationed? — A. At Ottawa. 

Q. In the Post Office Department or in the city post office? — A. In the Inter- 
national Money Order Exchange Office, in the city post office. 

Q. Where is your office? — A. Eight at the post office building. 

Q. Tour duty, as I understand it, is that you get the returns of the money orders 
payable out of Canada, and arrange the exchange, is that what you do? — A Yes. 
arrange the exchange for all money orders payable out of Canada. Our Internatinal 
Money Order Exchange Office is the only one sending foreign money orders for all the 
foreign money order business. 



828 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. Mr. Pennock, who has recently left, is the first-class clerk in the city post office 
who has charge of the money order branch. He issues the money orders payable in 
Italy, what have you to do with that? — A. We have nothing to do with the local 
money order branch, but all the foreign money orders are transmitted to us for com- 
putation into foreign currency except those sent direct. 

Q. Well, you are called the International Money Order Exchange; it is a big 
title, and I want to know what your duties are? — A. All the money orders that come 
from the different post offices, whether in the country or from the cities, we make a 
conversion of those money orders into the currency of the country in which they are 
payable and send them to France or whatever country they are drawn upon. 

Q. Who are you accountable to, who is your chief officer? — Mr. Lariviere. 

Q. Where is he stationed? — A. He is stationed with us in the International 
Money Order Exchange Office. 

Q. But where is it. I cannot find your name in the post office list? — A. It was 
formerly in Montreal; the office was transferred up here only last fall. 

By Mr. Bazin : 
Q. Were you transferred from Montreal to Ottawa? — A. Tes. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. How many officers were transferred from Montreal to Ottawa? — A. Six clerks. 

Q. There were six of you came from Montreal to Ottawa ? — A. Yes. 

Q. And as far as I can make out, your duty is to make out the computation of 
the exchange on the money orders issued in Canada and payable out of Canada or of 
the money orders issued out of Canada and payable in Canada? That is to say, if 
a man from Germany comes in and deposits a sufficient number of marks and buys a 
money order in Ottawa and pays for it here, in dollars, you adjust the exchange on 
it? — A. We just make the exchange on the money order. 

Q. You make the computation of that? — A Yes. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 
Q. Do you transfer the foreign coin? , 
The Chairman. — ~No, he is simply a computer. 

By Mr. Bazin : 

Q. Supposing the order is for a number of marks, for instance ten marks, you 
have to convert it into our currency? — A. We have to compute the exchange, and 
each clerk is held personally responsible as to the correctness of his computations. 

Witness retired. 

• INTERNATIONAL MONEY ORDER EXCHANGE/ 

To the Commissioners, the Royal Commission, Civil Service of Canada : 

We, the undersigned, employees of the Post Office Department and clerks in the 
' International Money Order Exchange Office,' respectfully submit : 

1st. That, as fourth-class clerks (clerks in city post offices), we -are appointed at 
the salary of four hundred dollars per annum : 

2nd. That we strongly recommend that the minimum salary of this class be in- 
creased to six hundred dollars, and the maximum salary to eight hundred dollars per 
annum; or that we should receive a third-class appointment; 

3rd. That, on account of the responsibility incurred through the special character 
of the work connected with our branch, we should be remunerated on the same basis as 
the clerks of banking institutions; 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 829 

SESSIONAL PA ER No. 29a 

4th. That an average of about forty thousand dollars is daily converted into foreign 
monetary denominations and each clerk is held personally responsible as to the correct- 
ness of his computations; 

5th. That we are entitled to an annual increase of fifty dollars, which, in some 
instances, has not been granted; 

6th. That our office hours are from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., and, occasionally, we are 
obliged to perform night work without any additional remuneration; 

7th. That, for the above reasons and the actual conditions and increasing necessi- 
ties of life, we sincerely hope that it will be in the power of the Commission to endorse 
the just demands of a most deserving class of public servants. 

All of which is respectfully submitted, 

Signed:— Signed:— 

M. D. McCLOSKEY, S. A. JAMIESON, 

JAS. YUILL, W. W. HEATHER, 

P. J. VAUGHAN, A. DUBOULAY. 

O SAUVE, LAWRENCE LANE, 

L. BARNWELL, A. M. DUPUIS. 
M. ROY MURRAY, 

Ottawa, Can., May 31, 1907. 



Ottawa, June 21, 1907. 

Mr. Walter Eowan, Chief Clerk and Superintendent of Money Order Branch, 
called, sworn and examined : — 

By the Chairman: 

Q. We got this letter from Mr. Dupuis? — A. Is that an application for the in- 
side service? 

Q. No, it is the International Money Order Exchange, perhaps you had better read 
the letter. (Document handed to witness). 

(Dupuis' petition). 

Q. You are Superintendent of the Money Order Branch of the Post Office Depart- 
ment? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long have you been in the service ? — A. 33 years, since 1874. 

Q. You are now drawing $2,150, I suppose?— A. $2,150, it will be $2,200 next 
October, I think. 

Q. The money order business has quadrupled within the last few years, has it 
not?— A. It has trebled, I think. 

Q. What is the International Money Order Exchange, what is that? — A. The 
advices of money orders issued throughout the country on Germany, Austria, Italy. 
Hungary, &c, are sent to the International Money Order Exchange at Ottawa to be 
converted into the money of the country in which they are payable. 

Q. As, for instance, if a money order is issued here in favour of some Italian 
immigrant's family, payable in Genoa, or somewhere else, the conversion is made from 
dollars into lire, or Italian currency? — A. If it is for Italy we convert it into francs. 
After being converted into the moneys of the country they are listed in lists which 
give the whole particulars, the number of the order, the place of issue, the name of the 
payee and the residence of the payee, and the name of the remitter, but not the place 
of payment, that is left for the Italian Department to select. We give the full address 
of the person to whom it is payable and they make it payable at the office that is most 
convenient. 



830 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. That is the aggregate of the money orders on Italy, not the individual money 
orders? — A. Each individual money order is listed in that way. They issue a new 
order from this list. The original order issued in Canada, the Canadian order, is of 
no value over there, it does not go to the country at all. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. There is a new order issued? — A. Yes, at the internationel money order ex- 
change office in Italy or Germany, or whatever country it is. 

Q. And the amount payable is expressed on that order in the currency of that 
country ? — A. Yes, not on the order when it is issued here. 

Q. Who checks the calculation when it is made here? — A. The calculation is made 
by one man, and then when it is listed an addition of the list is made in the money 
of both countries. 

Q. It would not be all one currency, it would not be all in francs? — A. Well, we 
had better start in at the beginning and make up the list at Ottawa for Germany, say. 
There are two columns for money, one is for dollars and cents and the other is for 
marks and pfennings. These two columns are added up and the total is converted at 
the table rate. 

Q. And they agree when correct? — A. Yes; to prove that the individual calcula- 
tions have been correctly made. 

Q. And that is all the check you have? — A. No. another clerk goes over the 
figures and makes the addition and checks it. 

Q. Does that clerk make the individual calculations or does he just cast up the 
aggregate and compare it with the figures? — A. Yes, that is all he does. They call it 
off to see that it is properly entered and to see that there is no error. We have never 
had one in that account. 

Q. But that does not provide against a cross error amounting to the same thing? 
—A. No. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. When was this international money order exchange invented? — A. In 18S3 we 
started it in Canada. 

Q. In 1883?— A. Yes. 

Q. Did you have men then at other places to make up these calculations? — A. No, 
it was at Montreal; we started it at Montreal. 

Q. In 18S3 the foreign orders went to Montreal and were made up in that office? 
—A. Yes. 

Q. From all over Canada? — A. Yes. 

Q. Now then, the officials in that office were brought here to Ottawa. When were 
they brought here? — A. In November last. 

Q. And the complaint is now that they being transplanted from Montreal, where 
they had settled down and where they were drawing certain pay, were brought up as 
strangers in a strange land at the same rate of pay \ — A. Well, the whole staff was 
brought from Montreal in order to start the business here. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. What superior advantages had you for doing this in Ottawa? — A. On account 
of the Christmas rush the Montreal office was always overcrowded, and it was getting 
so unwieldy that it was almost impossible to handle it there. It would get two or 
three days behind before I would know anything about it, whereas when it is located 
here I can watch it every day, and can take the clerks from the Money Order branch 
at the head office and put them into the exchange office in order to pull it through. I 
have had to put four men there from my own office every day this week in order to 
pull it through. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 831 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 
By the Chairman: 

Q. In 1883, when this money order transfer was beginning to take place men were 
selected in Montreal to make this computation? — A. Yes. 

Q. And finding that the development of the business was getting very great, you 
have now, in order to have them close to you at headquarters, transferred this branch 
to Ottawa?— A. Yes. 

Q. You have brought them up to Ottawa? — A. Yes. 

Q. Partly in order to get them under your own eye, and partly so that if a rush 
of work comes on in order that the work should be done promptly you can supplement 
the staff with men out of your own office and have the work brought up to the hilt? — 
A. Just so. 

Q. That is the whole thing?— A. Yes. 

Q. Who invented the title ' International Money Order Exchange ' ? — A. I do not 
know. It is a term used in the United States and we used it. I do not know, I am 
sure, whether the British office use it. I do not think they do. 

Q. They are not likely to do so? — A. I think in Britain the whole thing is done 
in the comptroller's office in London; all the foreign work is done there. 

Q. Then this grandiloquent term 'The International Money Order Exchange' is 
borrowed from the United States? — A. I think we got that term when we established 
the exchange offices with the United States about 1878. We had a number of them 
scattered over the land ; there were exchange offices on the Canadian and the American 
side. The term I think came to us then under the convention with the United St 

Q. Does it not give a rather undue importance to what simply amounts to the 
clerical work of computation? — A. Do you mean the title is too grand for it? 

Q. Yes. — A. Well, there is a great deal of responsibility attached to it. 

Q. It is a matter of clerical work in making the computation? — A. Yes. 

Q. It is nothing else but that? — A. Yes, but there is always this trouble that a 
clerk will make an error, people are not perfect. 

Q. Yes, you make a deposit for the wrong person ; you may say it is ' James 
Smith ' instead of ' John Smith ' ; humanity will always err ? — A. Then these foreign- 
ers write very bad hands. The formation of their letters is very different from our 
own, and it is very difficult to decipher them; it has happened with us, not frequently, 
but only once that I know of, that the slip accompanying the advice with all the in- 
formation concerning the payee has been detached from the one it belongs to and 
attached to the next one. and by that means the clerk made the order payable to the 
wrong person. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. Have you many cases of that kind? — A. Only one case that I know of. 

Q. And you have had millions of money orders? — A. Yes, I only mention this to 
show it is possible and that the clerks in the International Money Order Exchange 
have a certain amount of responsibility in that way. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. How many of them are responsible in that way? — A. Everyone working on the 
foreign list. 

Q. Are they all doing that same work, these seventeen men? — A. I try to change 
them around so that they will all know how to do all the work. 

Q. Have you got them divided into senior and junior, among these seventeen men 
is there one man answerable to you? — A. Yes, he was a second-class clerk and was 
brought here and made a first-class clerk. 

Q. That is Mr. Lariviere? — A. Yes. 

Q. And these other people besides Mr. Lariviere. who are in this business, are 
fourth-class clerks? — A. Mr. Murphy was brought from Montreal; he has been pro- 
moted. 



832 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 



Q. Mr. Murphy's name is not here? — A. All the others, Mr. Florence 

Q. I will read you the names of those men who signed? — (Reads list). — A. They 
ere all new men. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. When a man applies for a money order payable in Germany, say, down in 
Montreal, he goes to the regular Money Order Office? — A. Yes. 

Q. And he states what he wants; does he get a money order at once? — A. He gets 
a receipt for his money. 

Q. And it has to be forwarded to Ottawa? — A. Yes, the particulars. 

Q. I mean the application? — A. Yes, all the particulars. 

Q. And is the money order written here? — A. No, the advice containing the par- 
ticulars of that order and of every other order issued in Canada is retained here. 

Q. Where is the money order written that is given to the customer? — A. It is 
written right there in the post office at the time. 

Q. Is not the computation made there? — A. No. 

Q. The money is not collected there? — A. The money is collected there, yes; the 
computation is made there to a certain extent. If you said you wanted to remit so 
many marks they would have to look up their table to see how many dollars they 
would have to remit to make up that amount. 

Q. Does not that settle it? — A. No, we could not trust that all over the country. 

Q. When a man comes in to buy a money order on Germany you give him a 
receipt? — A. Yes. 

Q. The man holds the receipt; that is his voucher? — A. Yes. 

Q. The advice of that and of every foreign money order is sent up to Ottawa ? — A. 
Yes. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. They make up a list, and that list is sent to Rome, Berlin, or wherever it is, 
and the authorities at Rome or Berlin make the money order payable in the district 
where the payee resides? Is that it? — A. Yes. 

Q. The man who asks for the money order gets a receipt? — A. Yes. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. He does not get in fact what he wants, an order for a stipulated amount any- 
where? — A. He gets just what he wants. 

Q. No, he does not, he wants a draft payable in a certain place? — A. He gets a 
receipt for his money and this receipt says it is payable there. 

Q. He has a receipt in dollars and cents, not an order for foreign money? — A. 
No, but we have it changed into foreign currency. 

Q. Then in the course of carrying this out there is ample opening for mistakes 
in transcribing the writing. These men write what they want and some of them are 
very bad writers, and these men in the Money Exchange Office copy that from this 
very bad writing, and make the computation? — A. Yes, but we get over that by send- 
ing the handwriting of the individual who bought the order, the original accompanies 
our list. 

Q. That is a terribly cumbersome method? — A. No. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. The Post Office Department in Canada has made an arrangement with these 
foreign countries, with the Italian and other postal departments, and it is these for- 
eign departments wish these arrangements to be made, it has nothing to do with you? 
— A. We have to abide by the convention and to make the best convention we can. 
We enter into a convention with each country, which is signed by the Postmaster 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 833 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

General here and the Director General of Posts, or whatever his title is, in the differ- 
ent countries. 

Q. You simply receive the money and show the application for the order and the 
amount of money you receive, and you transfer that to the other side, and that settles 
it? — A. Certainly they pay it. 

Q. We will put it in another way: every three years all the nations of the world 
meet together in postal conference. Dr. Coulter went to Rome the other day; there 
was a triennial meeting, they gather at Berlin, Rome or whatever it is, and they form 
a convention and bring all postal matters up to date; they arrange about international 
despatch of money orders and all that sort of thing, and this is the system that Ger- 
many, Italy and other countries have laid down at that convention. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. It has been decided in that conference? — A. Yes, they are all parties to it, 
but we make in some cases a better agreement with individual countries than the 
general agreement, and then we have a specific agreement covering that particular 
country. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Sometimes this general convention is modified by two countries coming to a 
special agreement ? — A. Yes, like the United States and Canada, which two countries 
have a special postal arrangement. 

Q. The United States and Canada met together and agreed on a separate postal 
arrangement outside the convention, but as a rule this convention guides the postal 
business of the world? — A. Yes, just so. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. Respecting the work of settling with the foreign countries for what you owe 
them, how is that arranged ? — A. We deduct our credit from theirs, and then the 
balance is paid. If we owe 10,000 marks we, through the High Commissioner for 
Canada in London, England, buy a draft for the amount and forward it to the Ger- 
man postal department. 

Q. And if they owe you so many dollars? — A. They never owe us. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. They never owe us now, it is all on one side; since. this great rush of immi- 
gration we have more money here in Canada than they have in Germany? — A. It is 
exceedingly heavy also to Austria and Italy. 

Q. Now, to come to these people "who have sent in this memorial, it is the gra- 
dual outcome of the development of the international money order system, and all 
these people who have signed this memorial are new people? — A. They are new peo- 
ple, yes. 

Q. Mr. Dupuis, who came here, said he was only seven and a half months in 
the service? — A. He was in Montreal before coming here, so was Mr. Sauve and Mr. 
Duboulay. 

Q. All these people are what you call 'new'? — A. Yes, all the others came in 
since we brought the exchange office here in November. 

Q. Without taking into account the question whether $100 is enough or not, 
they have only been in the service since November, and they knew what they were 
coming to when they entered the service*? — A. Certainly. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. Still it is not a high order of work?— A. Still, I think $600 is only a fair wage. 
29a— 53 



834 ROYAL COMMISSION ON TEE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

By the Chairman : 

Q. "Without taking that into account, they knew when they were appointed last 
November what they were coming to, there was no deception or anything of that 
kind ? — A. No, sir. 

Mr. Bazin. — Except that Mr. Dupuis said he didn't know he was to be transferred 
to Ottawa. 

By the Chairman : 
Q. Were each of these men notified that the staff was coming to Ottawa ? — A. 
Each man in Montreal was given a chance to elect whether he would remain in Mont- 
real or be transferred to Ottawa and they elected to come here. There were Mr. 
Dupuis, Mr. Sauve, Mr. Duboulay, Mr. Murphy, Mr. Florence and Mr. Lariviere, 
these were all brought from Montreal. Of course in addition we brought up trained 
men that we had in Montreal to assist in the work, until we got it established here so 
that we could run the office without them, but the other men who signed the memorial 
have been added since. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. Do you think that a young man can dress himself respectably and live like 
a respectable member of society, and keep himself on $400 a year ? — A. I do not think 
it is enough, sir. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. That is another question. You think, as a matter of fact that the minimum 
pay might be raised from $400 to $600 ? — A. I think so — I think it would only be 
right that $600 should be the minimum. 

Q. But it is a matter of fact that these young men knew when appointed what 
they were coming to, and they made their election to come to Ottawa ? — A. Yes, they 
were notified, and all of the men that were brought from outside knew that they would 
only get $400, that is all we can pay them. 

Q. And they made their election? — A. Yes. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. And they would not have had any more down there, they would have been just 
as badly off down there ? — A. Yes. 

Q. And apart from the question of their transfer there is the other question 
whether in any case the amount is enough ? — A. Yes. 

By the Chairman . : 

Q. Can women be employed in this work ? — A. We have had two women employed 
here. 

Q. Are they a success ? — A. They can do good work but the hours are too long. 

Q. What are the hours ? — A. They come on at 9 o'clock in the morning and work 
until they get through, that may be six or seven o'clock. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. The work cannot be so very heavy ? — A. Oh, yes, it is very heavy. You may 
judge of that when I tell you that I had over fifty men there from November until the 
first of January. 

Q. Fifty men employed in the International Money Order Exchange Depart- 
ment ? — A. Yes, and I shall require sixty this year. 

Q. The work simply consists of taking this exchange book and converting the 
money into foreign currency, I should think a man would do an infinite amount of 
that kind of work in a day ? — A. They do a fair day's work ? I haven't the figures 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 83S 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

with me, but I can tell you the experience of the Xew York Exchange office and can 
give you the actual figures of what they require a man to do in a day there. 
Mr. Eyshe. — We ought to go and have a look at that office. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Where is your office? — A. On the fourth floor in the post office. 

Q. You have to put them there because you haven't room in the department ? — A. 
Yes. 

Q. They are not on the city post office staff ? — A. They are under me, but they 
are on the Ottawa city post office pay-list. 

Q. Why should they be there, they are not on the local service in Ottawa ? — A. 
Well, they were on the Montreal local pay-list and they were transferred to the 
Ottawa local pay-list. 

Q. Because they were on the local pay-list in Montreal, the office having been 
established there when it was the chief foreign office, you perpetuated the practice by 
putting them on the Ottawa local pay-list; why shouldn't they be attached to the 
department ? — A. I do not want them on the inside service for many reasons, but it 
is advisable to have them at Ottawa in order that the work of the branch may be 
carried on promptly and that I may, when required, take on men to fill in these posi- 
tions. 

Q. Coming to another phase of the question, there are 17 permanent men in this 
International Money Order Exchange business ? — A. Yes. 

Q. You say you had fifty there about Christmas ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Where did you get the others ? — A. We took any person who could write a 
decent hand and add up figures. 

By Mr. Bazin : 
Q. From your own department, of course? — A. No, we took them from outside. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. They were all taken on recommendation; they all belonged to the proper school 
of faith? — A. We can only get them in one way, through the regular routine. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. Who recommends them? — A. Whoever has the right to do that. 
Q. The local member? — A. Yes, the politicians. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. These people have no connection whatever per se with the city post office, but 
by being tied up to the city post office, vacancies in their ranks would be filled on the 
recommendation of the political party in Ottawa? — A. Oh, yes, the same as any other 
party. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Are these people examined as to their qualification for these positions? — A. 
Certainly for the permanent positions, but not for the temporary positions. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. These seventeen people have nothing to do with the Ottawa City Post Office 
any more than with the Montreal or Victoria Post Offices, but being tied up to the 
Ottawa City Post Office when the vacancies occur in their ranks, those vacancies would 
be filled up on the recommendation of persons supporting the Government here in 
Ottawa? — A. Oh, not at all, it is not a local patronage. 

29a— 531 



836 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. But they belong to the city post office? — A. No, the filling of these positions 
in this exchange is done from the whole country. 

Q. That is what I wanted to ascertain ? — A. I thought you were speaking entirely 
of the extra help; when we are in need of that we have to get men from right around 
here. 

Q. When you raised the staff from 17 to 50 at the time of the rush of business, 
did you discharge those extra men after the pressure was over? — A. Yes. 

Q. How long did they stay ? — A. I think the longest was six weeks, up to the first 
of the year, first of January. 

Q. That is to say that a lot of Europeans were sending money to their friends, 
and there was such a rush about Christmas time and New Year that you had to get 
the International Money Order Exchange Office augmented, and that when that rush 
was over the extra officers were dispensed with? — A. Yes, it is the same thing in New 
York, they had fifty extra hands on at Christmas and they let them go as the work 
slackened down, so many at a time. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. What amount of education have these men, do you take any steps to test them ? 
— A. Which do you mean? 

Q. These $400 men in the International Money Order Exchange? — A. Certainly, 
they pass the examination required by law before the Civil Service Examiners. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Preliminary or Qualifying ?— A. They would have to pass the Qualifying, the 
Preliminary does not qualify for anything. 

Q. This must be a work that is increasing in volume? — A. Yes, very rapidly. 

Q. Can you find men to come in at $400 ? — A. Those men came in at that, but of 
course I suppose with the expectation of improving their positions within a very short 
time. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. How long do you expect them to be working for $400 before raising them? — 
A. The present law only allows an annual increase of $50. 

Q. Do you think that is a proper way of advancing the salary? — A. By an annual 
increase? 

Q. By having it fixed by law? — A. I do not see how we can do it any other way 
in the Government service. 

Q. Is not the judgment of the superior officer of any account? — A. Yes, provided 
you could get it to work in the right lines it would be. 

Q. To invoke a law of that kind is of course simply to abandon any attempt at the 
exercise of judgment. It means to abandon any attempt at regulation by the good 
judgment of the superior officer. The law is blind, that is a blind law applied to cir- 
cumstances that require something more than blindness? — A. You mean with regard 
to the annual increase? 

Q. Yes? — A. Of course, a promotion is supposed to take in the judgment of the 
superior officer who makes a report on the qualification of the man. 

Q. You cannot deal with live men by dead acts, that is the ground I take about it ; 
it seems absurd to do a thing like that mechanically? — A. You mean that the increase 
should not be automatic? 

Q. No, because the work is not automatic, a man's capacity is not automatic. 
One man is worth five times as much as another? — A. Yes, that is true enough. 

Q. Then the poor ones you do not want at all 

The Chairman. — And the good ones won't stay. 
A. But I do not believe that a young man should start off at too high a salary. If 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 837 

SESSIONAL PA?ER No. 29a 

he starts off at $600, with an opportunity of going to $800, I think it will be satis- 
factory. 

Q. Yes, I quite agree with you that some mistakes are made by tbe regulations of 
the service. I think some of them get too much as beginners? — A. $400 is not too 
much. 

Q. Certainly not, it is too little \ — A. $600 would be a fair start, probably. 

Q. Are these men in tbe Money Order Exchange regarded as esteemed foreigners, 
or what? — A. They are regarded as part of the post office staff. 

Q. As foreigners ? — A. Xo, not foreigners, but as part of the city post office staff. 

Q. They have to do that foreign work, that is all? — A. That is all. 

Witness retired. 



Wednesday, September 4, 19"7. 

The Commission resumed at 10.30 a.m., present, Mr. J. M. Courtney, C.M.G., 
Chairman, Mr. Fyshe and Mr. Bazin. 

Mr. Amable Emery Spenard, Letter Carrier of the Ottawa City Post Office staff, 
called and sworn, and examined. 

By Mr. Courtney : 

Q. Have you a memorial that you desire to submit to the Commission ? — A. I 
am sorry to say, Mr. Chairman, that it is not in as nice shape as I would like to have 
it for presentation to the Commission. However, I will read it, if you so desire, and 
would respectfully beg that if possible I may be permitted to take it back and strike 
off copies for the board. 

Q. I daresay that would be all right, is it a very long document ? — A. No, it is 
only a few pages. 

(Memorial of the letter carriers of the Ottawa post office read.) 

Q. Well, that is a very good memorial. The pay of the letter carriers begins at 
$1.25, does it not ? — A. There are two classes of salaries attached to the letter car- 
riers branch. There is what we call the old bill, which applies to those who come under 
the Civil Service Act, with a minimum of $360 per annum up to a maximum of $600, 
with a yearly increase of $30; the latest law is $1.25 per day for the probationary 
period of three months, and on appointment as a permanent employee the carrier is 
paid $1.50 per day for two years. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. That is for the next two years ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Then he gets $1.75 per day ? — A. Yes, for another two years and $2 is the 
maximum. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. I thought it was $2.25? — A. Excuse me, with the exception of a special class 
which on recommendation for efficiency and good conduct, men are recommended for 
$2.25, but according to what I know of the Act $2 is the maximum pay. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. Is that because you only get paid for the days you work ? — A. That is all. 
Q. You do not get paid for Sundays I — A. Xo, sir, never. 



838 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. You do not do any work on Sundays? — A. We do work on Sundays ; we 
have a staff of men working on every Sunday in this post office. I think it requires 
five men to do the work on Sundays and w,e all do that work, taking turns about. 
But although those carriers who are under the old bill are not paid for Sunday work, 
those who are working on the per diem allowance under the new bill are paid for every 
day they work. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. But practically with regard to the old bill, I suppose it will all work out the 
same in the end. that is to say that a man getting $600 under the old bill ? — A. $600 
less superannuation. 

Q. Yes. well, the man getting $600 less superannuation would wait there until 
in the course of time $600 was reached, and then would he get $2 per day ? — A. No, 
sir. I am one of those who did not come under the new bill — I may say that under 
the old bill, although fifteen years in the service, I never got a cheque for more than 
$48.25 per month. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. You never did r — A. Xo, I never did and I have been appointed for fifteen 
years. 

Q. You were paid by the year, were you ? — A. Yes, sir. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. You have spoken about the hours, what time do you begin to work ? — A. We 
require to be at work at 6.30 in the morning, a man needs to reach the office at that 
time if he wants to get through with his work and be on the street at the proper time 
to give efficient service. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. When do you get your breakfast ? — A. We need to be up early enough before 
starting for the office, probably at 5 o'clock. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. You get there at 6.30 to sort the mails out for your route? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. "What time do you start on your walk ? — A. According to the lateness of the 
train ; of course, sometimes we may be delayed, but if the train is on time we should 
leave the office at 8 o'clock. 

Q. What time does your walk occupy ? — A. I suppose from two and a half to 
three hours after that. 

Q. Then after that, say you go back with the undelivered mail to the post office, 
or do you go home to lunch ? — A. We do not necessarily go back to the post office 
unless we have valuables in our bag, such as registered letters, those we cannot keep. 

Q. Then more trains come in from Montreal and other places with other letters, 
do you begin sorting again ? — A. Well, no, there is a special staff in the office for 
sorting. 

Q. The letter carriers can go home for lunch after they get through with their 
walk? — A. Yes. 

Q. What time do you come back ? — A. 12.30 p.m. 

Q. You begin another round then ? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And that takes two or three hours again ? — A. They must be back at the 
office at 3.45 p.m. for the third delivery. 

Q. When do you have your evening meal, your supper ? — A. After we are 
through with the last trip. 

Q. Then you go back again for the third time ? — A. Excuse me, that four o'clock 
trip is our last trip. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIYIL SERVICE 839 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. Then your work is practically from 6.30 until 4 in the afternoon ? — A. No, 
you might say that our work is not through until 5.30. 

Q. Then you are working eleven hours per day every day with an hour for dinner 
on the average ? — A. Oh, no, we have more than an hour for dinner on the average. 

Q. How long do you have for dinner on the average '. — A. Say a couple of hours. 

Q. Then you have nine hours per day of steady work? — A. Well, we might say 
that, yes. 

Q. The city I know is distributed into districts, how many miles per day does the 
average letter carrier walk? — A. Really I have never gone so far into details as that; 
I do not know the distance, but of course it could be figured out by the men. 

Q. I suppose you each walk about the same number of miles? — A. Yes, on the 
residential walks. 

Q. How far does the city delivery extend — to Hintonburg? — A. Yes, to Hinton- 
burg on the west, and to Rockcliffe on the east, and as far as the Ottawa river on the 
north and to Ottawa East on the south to the canal. 

Q. Well, in the Hintonburg direction, how far do you go there? — A. To the old 
St. Lawrenee and Ottawa track. .* 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. I suppose you walk at least eight or nine miles a day? — A. I should think we 
walk more than that. 

(Mr. James W. Ross, of the Ottawa Post Office staff. — In my time I calculated I 
walked about fifteen miles per day.) 

By the Chairman: 

Q. As the city extends and the population increases more letter carriers are ap- 
pointed? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And the districts are not so extensive, the walk is not so long ? — A. No, because 
■the population is denser, there are more people to serve. 

Q. Therefore, as the population increases the tendency is to decrease the mileage 
to be covered? — A. Yes, naturally. 

Q. By the way, how are you appointed? You all pass an examination, do you 
not? — A. I do not know if the Primary examination has always to be passed, but I 
know in my time you could not be appointed without passing the Preliminary examina- 
tion. 

Q. In the case of a letter carrier coming in to-day does he pass an examination? 
— A. I am under the impression he does. 

Q. You do not know that for certain? — A. They have to pass an examination be- 
fore the chief clerk of the post office. 

Q. You have to have political pull to get in? — A. Oh, yes, you must have a 
political recommendation. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. From whom? — A. The local Member here. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. In addition to your pay what uniform does the Government give you? — A, 
They give the outside men, that is the men on the regular walks, one complete suit 
of summer uniform. 

Q. That is the lighter uniform for summer wear, but they also furnish heavier 
uniforms of the same colour for winter? — A. Exactly, the Government furnishes over- 
coats and winter tunics, every second season, that is you have to make your overcoat 
and winter tunic last two seasons. 

Q. And you have winter hats? — A. Oh, yes, and we have two pair of boots per 
year. 



840 LOYAL COMMISSION 02f TEE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII.. A. 1908 

Q. Then, in fact, as far as your outward person is concerned, you are clothed? — 
A. Oh, yes. 

Q. Practically, although you are now paid a per diem allowance, the work is not 
casual work, you are never dismissed as in other trades, it is steady work ? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. It is not like the ordinary stone mason, for instance, who may be out of em- 
ployment, you have permanent work? — A. Yes, sir, so long as our conduct is good." 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Nothing but sickness will stop you? — A. Nothing else, provided you give effi- 
cient service, of course. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. What leave of absence do you receive during the year? — A. Well, under the 
old bill, under which I am employed, I get three weeks holidays. 

Q. And what do those new men who are under the new bill get? — A. They only 
get twelve working days, and the two Sundays, which makes two weeks. 

Q. They get a fortnight's holidays and you get three weeks? — A. Yes. 

Q. And every day they are absent from sickness or any other cause beyond that 
fortnight their pay is deducted? — A. Yes. 

Q. That regulation is rigid, I believe? — A. Yes. 

Q. And no favouritism can get over that? — A. Oh, no, because the Act is plain. 

Q. Of course we cannot ask you to judge yourself, but do you think a better class 
of letter carriers could be secured if they were freed from the necessity of going to the 
politicians to get their appointments? — A. I think so, but I think the greatest draw- 
back to the department getting as good a staff of letter carriers as we used to have is 
the small pay, that I believe has a great deal to do with it. For instance, I am leaving 
the service myself. 

Q. You are? — A. Yes, sir, I am under leave now, and as soon as my leave of 
absence expires I am going to leave, because I realize that my family cannot live on 
$48.25 per month. I have two children and t am only living from hand to mouth, and 
I feel that as a poor man I must protect my family with life insurance which I cannot 
afford to pay for out of my salary; I must also give my children a good education, 
(which, for a poor man, is the best thing he can do, but I cannot afford to educate my 
children as I would like to on the salary I am receiving. I have had inducements 
offered me from outside and I am going to risk it, and my resignation is being con- 
sidered, although it has not been accepted as yet. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. You have been fifteen years in the service? — A. Yes, sir, and the position I 
am taking has a maximum of $1,400 per annum, so I think I am not doing badly. 

Q. Is it commercial work you are going to? — A. I have been appointed city 
assessor for Ottawa. 

Q. Will that be a permanent appointment? — A. Yes, sir, and the salary is $1,400 
per year. 

Q. But is not that appointment subject to municipal politics? — A. Oh, no, I 
did not have to have political influence to get there, I was appointed by the Mayor on 
the recommendation of the assessment commissioner. 

Q. Would not another council have the power to turn you out? — A. No, sir, I 
am not under the Council at all, I am right under the immediate supervision of the 
commissioner.. 

Q. Which commissioner? — A. The assessment commissioner, Mr. Stewart. 

Q. But that is a municipal position, is it % — A. Yes, it is a municipal position, 
but Mr. Stewart, under whose supervsion I am, has been there for 18 years. 

By the Chairman: 
Q. Then to revert back to the question we were considering, you think on account 



ROY A L COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 841 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

of the small pay there are not as good a class of men entering the service as letter 
carriers as there used to be? — A. I feel that way, sir, and I think the officials of the 
post office will bear out that statement of mine, that the staff is inferior to what it 
used to be. 

Q. You require a certain knowledge of both languages in a place like Ottawa? — 
A. Ye3, I find it very handy to have both languages. 

Q. Is it especially so in Sandy Hill, where the French and English are mixed ? — 
A. Yes, and in Lower Town also. 

Q. But in Sandy Hill, for instance? — A. Yes, even on Sandy Hill. 

Q. The great qualifications for a letter carrier, I suppose, are ability to sort 
quickly and deliver promptly; you would necessarily have to be able to read and 
write and to have a certain amount of mental intelligence? — A. Oh, certainly, you 
must have mental intelligence. 

Q. Is there any check kept on you in regard to the collection of the insufficient 
postage paid on letters forwarded? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Is there a check kept in the office? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You have to account far every penny? — A. Yes, in fact the letter carrier has 
to pay the whole thing into the post office before he leaves and has to collect the money 
later on his walk. 

Q. If I get a letter delivered to me with insufficient postage prepaid you have to 
pay that four cents to the Post Office Department before you start out on your walk 
with that letter? — A. Yes, and I have to collect it from you afterwards or lose it. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. That does not seem to be reasonable? — A. Yes, sir — but it is safe for the 
Government. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Supposing you cannot deliver that letter? — A. We are given credit for the 
amount in that case and the letter sent to the dead letter office. 

Q. Is that done every day before going out on your round? — A. Yes, sir, it is done 
every trip. 

(Mr. Michael Fagan, of the Ottawa City Post Office Letter Carriers staff. — In re- 
gard to the unpaid postage, I may say, Mr. Chairman, they now use what is known as 
the ' postage due stamp,' and the carrier when he receives the money puts his initials 
across the stamp, which has been affixed to the letter, and cancels it. We have to buy 
that stamp before we leave the office.) 

Q. You are an intelligent man, Mr. Spenard, have you any knowledge of what 
is done in other countries of the world with regard to labour? — A. Well, I have been 
in touch with what has been done by the Civil Service Commission and the Congress 
of the United States. 

Q. Are you aware that in England lately there has been passed an act for the com- 
pensation of injuries received by workmen or servants in the discharge of their duties? 
— A. I have read that. 

Q. If any accident happened to you in the discharge of your duties, or if you got 
pleurisy or anything of that description in the discharge of your duty there is no com- 
pensation comes to you? — A. You see that-is just why we would like that every body 
would be placed under the yearly allowance instead of per diem allowance, because in 
the case of those of us who are under the old bill, and who come under the Civil 
Service Act, a doctor's certificate will guarantee our wages if we are sick, while if you 
are paid on the per diem allowance you get nothing. The effect is that under the new 
bill if you are not at work you cannot expect anything, except that in the case of men 
who have kept their holidays until pretty nearly the end of the year, then in case of 
sickness they would receive pay for fourteen days on account of their holidays. In 
that case our family would not have to suffer by losing pay during sickness of a short 
duration. But if a man has to keep his holidays until the end of the year in order to 



S42 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

insure himself against possible sickness they are not of much good to him, and then if 
he happens to be sick for a couple of weeks it means that he gets no holidays at all, 
and be is compelled to work the whole year around without rest, which is so necessary 
to a carrier on account of the nature of his work. 

Q. In the case of sickness or disability, supposing you sprained your ankle or did 
anything that laid you up there would be no compensation coming to you from any 
source under the new bill? — A. Not unless you had your holidays coming to you for 
that year. 

Q. So that although in England the employer has to compensate his workmen for 
sickness or disability incurred in the discharge of their duty, the officials of the post 
office, the letter carriers under the new system would have nothing coming to them if 
they were laid up by sickness or disability ? — A. Nothing at all. 

Q. "When was this new system of the per diem allowance of from $1.25 to $2 per 
day instituted? — A. I remember well it was in 1901. 

Q. Although the commodities were not as expensive as they are now — the cost 
of living is greater now than it was when the old Act was put in force in 18S2 ? — A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. In framing that measure of 1901, the circumstances were taken into account 
of the cost of commodities at that time — one would presume, therefore, that the peo- 
ple appointed since 1901 were better paid than those who were appointed in 1882 or 
subsequent prior to 1901 ? — A. Probably. 

(Mr. James W. Eoss. — But they reach the maximum quicker now than under the 
old Bill ?) 

Q. They reach the maximum quicker, of course ? — A. They reach it now in about 
four years. 

Q. At present once a letter carrier always a letter carrier ? — A. That seems to 
be the policy of the office. 

Q. And that policy is not confined to the letter carriers I am afraid ? — A. I do 
not know about other branches of the service. 

Q. I suppose that you consider if you were an exceptional man and were doing 
good work you should be able to pass from grade to grade and perhaps become city 
postmaster uutimately ? — A. That is my contention, that should be a possibility. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. I see that in your memorial you say that letter carriers should have the privi- 
lege of being promoted to clerkships on the recommendation of the postmaster after 
examination on the subject of duties of office alone ? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. But an examination of that kind will only show that you were efficient as 
letter carriers, it would not show that you would probably be efficient as clerks ? — A. 
Oh, no, what is meant by that is ( upon passing that examination and proving them- 
selves efficient.' The postmaster would always pick out good men on the letter car- 
riers staff, he would have the opportunity of observing their work and if he thinks 
that a man would do as well, and probably better, in a more important position in the 
office, then on passing that examination, he should be promoted. 

Q. You expect though that he would have to pass that examination as to his 
fitness ? — A. Oh, yes. 

By the Chairman : 
Q. I presume, as a matter of fact, if you passed your examination the appoint- 
ment should be probationary as regards your fitness ? — A. Yes. We have on our 
staff here now, Mr. Fagan, who has passed an examination as to the duties of office 
on the same question paper as the second or third-class clerks have passed, so I think 
that man is good enough for promotion. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 
Q. That is quite right ? — A. This barrier between the letter carriers' staff and 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CITIL SERVICE 843 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

the clerks' staff should be eliminated. In the United States Letter Carriers' case. 
Congress has recommended that the barrier between the clerks and letteT carriers should 
be eliminated so that the postmaster may say to one man ' you will be a clerk ' and to 
another man ' you will be a letter carrier ' whenever the interest of the service require 
it, and as the abilities of the respective men may warrant. 

(Mr. Fagan. — As regards the clerks' branch and the capability of carriers to per- 
form the work in that .branch I may say that as a rule the letter carriers are always 
looked upon in all city post offices as the best posted men in regard to the city dis- 
tribution because they have the experience ; in that way they are doing clerks' work, 
I may say there are six carriers now doing inside work in the Ottawa city post office. 
We have the name of ' clerks ' if we want to take it on the outside, but on the inside 
we are ' letter carriers,' so that individually we look upon it as if it were an ' Irish- 
man's promotion.' We get the same salary as the letter carriers for doing clerks' 
work, and we lose our uniform, and we lose our car fares, which amounts to a con- 
siderable item during the year. 

Q. The letter carriers get free rides ? — A. Yes, the letter carriers in uniform are 
carried on the street care free, but by going inside and doing clerks' work we are de- 
prived of the uniforms and in consequence we cannot ride free. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. I regret to hear that you think of leaving the service, Mr. Spenard, are there any 
other carriers leaving the service ' — A. Some years ago we had Mr. Usher who left 
the service and went into business for himself and he has been doing handsomely ever 
since. Also T. Donovan, who since leaving the service has been accountant for Mr. 
Scott, wholesale grain merchant, drawing a larger salary, and others. 

Q. Are there any of the new appointees leaving the service, do they stay any 
length of time or do they just come in and go out again ? — A. Some of them could 
not stand the work, a good many. 

Q. I am not talking about the unsuitable men, but of men who are efficient, do 
those men who have come in under the new regulations and who are efficient, stay in 
the service i. — A. Yes, generally most of them. 

Q. That would seem as if they were contented with their lot? — A. They are not 
contented, sir. 

Q. They are not ? — A. Xo, sir. 

Q. What I wanted to find out is whether the discontent under the new system 
is leading to resignation ? — A. I think I can explain that, Mr. Courtney, why these 
young men are apparently content. A good many of them are too young and most 
of them are not well educated enough to take positions outside and as they have never 
yet drawn much money in wages, so that when they get hold of $1.25 or $1.50 they 
think it is a good position and it it is worth while keeping it. 

(Mr. Fagah. — With respect to men going out, at the present time quite a number 
of those coming in are not physically able to stand the strain of the work, but they 
have to live and it is right they should be provided with employment of some kind.) 

Q. I have asked whether you have sufficient men, mentally and physically, and I 
understood that they were efficient but it comes out now that you think they are not 
efficient physically, they are puny compared with thfc broader and stronger class of 
men under the old system? — A. Yes, I may say that the present Superintendent Mr. 
J. N. Larue has his own time in this way, in the old times the carriers always looked 
upon themselves and upon their work with some degree of interest, they felt they 
should take every means to try to find the party to whom correspondence was addressed; 
these new comers if addresses are not exactly correct they do not seem to take the same 
trouble, they do not know the party or they do not seem to want to know them. 

Q. That is to say if a letter is addressed to 470 instead of 460 on a certain street, 
although the person is well known in the vicinity they would not bother themselves 
very much about it? — A. Xo, that is the way; I may say that I know that because I 
happened to be working with the Assistant Superintendent in looking up matters in 



844 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

that way, they do not seem to care much, they are in the job and do not seem to care — 
they know too much I might say. 

Examination of Mr. Spenard resumed. 

Q. Is there a large percentage of the^ letters returned? — A. I might say yes, I 
think there are quite a few that possibly might be delivered although, of course, I do 
not like to say that they could or could not, because the carrier on his route is supposed 
to know more than the man who is sorting in the office and the carrier should know 
more about it. I do not think that the same interest is taken that used to be with 
the old class of letter carriers. 

Q. Well, you have presented your case very fairly and admirably and I do not 
think I have anything more to ask you. 

Mr. Spenard recalled. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 
Q. You 3aid, Mr. Spenard, that during the whole of your service in the Department 
you never drew a monthly cheque for more than $48.25? — A. That is $50 less three 
and a half per cent for superannuation. 

By the Chairman: 
Q. That is 2% to the Government and li%for your retirement? — A. No, I was 
made permanent on the 16th May,, 1893, and the new Act raising Superannuation fees 
from 2i% to 3% had been enacted one month previous to that. I do not come in 
under the Retirement Act. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Now that you are going to leave the service, do you get any benefit from the 
money that has been retained from your salary on account of superannuation? — A. I 
expect I may get leave for a few months with pay, but I have no reason to ask for 
superannuation. 

By the Chairman: 
Q. He cannot get any refund of his superannuation contributions, but what he 
hopes to accomplish is to get leave of absence for some period of time with his pay, 
but he gets no refund of his superannuation contribution? — A. No, I cannot get any 
refund under the law. I have subscribed $196 to the superannuation fund since I 
have belonged to the service, I am told that by the officials of the Post Office Depart- 
ment. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. That is without including the interest? — -A. Without interest, I have that 
on the authority of the Department. 
• Q. Where do you live? — A. At 18 Gloucester street. 

Q. What rent are you paying? — A. When I was all alone I paid $11 per month. 

Q. For board? — A. No, for rent only. 

Q. You said ' when you were alone ' did you rent a house for yourself ? — A. I 
might say I do not live in a house alone now, there are some people living in the house 
with me outside my own family. You see my salary was so low that I rented a 
bigger house and paid $25 per month rent and am renting rooms, the revenue from 
which helps me along; only for that I do not know how I would have been able to live. 

Q. What do you get from renting the rooms? — A. When all the rooms are rented 
I can get as much as $40 a month. 

Q. You would make something out of that ? — A. Oh yes, when they are all rented, 
but they are not always rented; in the summer time we cannot get lodgers. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 845 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. If you had to go in and rent a house for your own family use what would you 
get a house for? — A. I do not think I could get a good decent house for less than $15. 

Q. Would you pay as much as that i — A. Certainly, houses that used to be $10 
or $11 are now $15 per month. 

Q. That would he $180 per year for real ! — A. Yes sir. 

Q. And you are only getting somewhere less than $600? — A. Less than $600. 

Q. And you have to pay taxes too? — A. Oh no sir. everything is clear, taxes and 
water rates are included in that amount; but with regard to the item of fuel, that has 
gone up considerably. We used to be able to get four foot wood for $2 per cord and 
now you have to pay $3 and $3.50 per cord. 

Q. Do you burn coal? — A. Xot in the small houses for kitchen purposes. We 
used to use a lot of wood which was cheap, but now it is cheaper to burn coal for 
heating purposes and even coal for which we used to pay S6 and $6.50 has gone up to 
$7 per ton. 

Q. How do you manage to get along that way ? — A. By the assistance and good 
financing of my wife. 

Q. You men must have very clever wives. 

Witness retired. 



Ottawa, September 4. 1907. 

Mr. Michael Fagan, Letter Carrier, Ottawa City Post Office, called, sworn and 
examined. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Now Mr. Fagan what have you to say with reference to this promotion? — A. 
In reference to the clerkship Mr. Chairman I desire to say that for something like 
eight years I have been doing the work of a clerk although paid a letter carrier's 
salary. At the same time I have been deprived of my uniform and consequently 
I have been deprived also of the privilege of riding free on the street cars; I have 
spoken several times to the Deputy City Postmaster who has stated that he would re- 
commend me for a clerkship. I went several times and inquired about it, and he 
has always been going to see about it, but so 'far as I know there has been nothing 
done. This has been going on now for about six years. Sometime about a year ago, 
or in April last we were all notified to go up for examination; I spoke to the Deputy 
Postmaster and wanted to know why I. being a letter carrier had to go up and pas? 
an examination that was provided for clerks only. He replied that it was a good 
thing for me, that it would bring the matter of my promotion to a head, that is the 
matter of appointing us carriers who are working as clerks to the position of clerks. 
I happen to be one of the lucky, or unlucky ones. I do not know which it is, I passed 
the examination and I went in afterwards and I asked him about it. but there has 
been nothing done yet. I feel that, possibly, if I wanted to go out and look for polit- 
ical influence I could get that position, but I do not feel that I should do that. I feel 
that having shown that I am qualified for that position, if I have been doing my duty 
there is no reason why I should not have that clerkship, especially if my length of 
service is taken into consideration — I have some twenty-four years service in the 
office. 

Q. I do not know anything about individual cases, but perhaps that might not 
be owing to any demerit on the part of the Deputy Postmaster. Mr. Bates, who might 
have sent it on in the ordinary course to the Department, and it may have stuck there 
some how or other ? — A. Well, of course, we have our own opinions on the matter. 



846 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VI!., A. 1908 

but I tell you I do not think that justice has been done to us. We know a case of 
a man who has lately been put over our heads. 

Q. Would that arise from political influence? — A. I suppose it must have been. 

(Mr. Ross — They said so, they went outside.) 

A. — (Continued) I feel that if a man does his duty he should not have to go out- 
side for influence. I feel that if a man is fit for the position he occupies he is entitled 
to the salary for the work he is doing without having to go outside to get it; proba- 
bly I may be a little sensitive in that way, but I do not feel that a position that has 
to be begged for when you are doing the work and are entitled to it is much encour- 
agement to a man to do what is right. 

Mr. Michael Fagan recalled. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. You have ten children Mr. Fagan? — A. Nine living. 

Q. Are these entirely dependent on you on this salary of $2.25 per day? — A. 
All but one, I managed to get one boy through the business college but the others 
are all dependent on me. 

Q. You have a wife and eight children dependent on your labours? — A. Yes. 

Q. And you have a salary of $2.25 per day? — A. In fact it was less than that, 
1 was under the old bill, and I was like many others in the office when the new bill 
came out we grabbed at the $2.25. 

Q. And now that you have the gentlemanly employment of clerk in the inside, 
instead of letter carrijer you lose your clothing? — A. And the car fare as well. 

(Mr. Ross — This" gentleman has to spend four car tickets per day and I have to 
spend two.) 

Q. Is there anything derogatory in being classed as a letter carrier and doing 
clerk's work? — A. Nothing at all, 

Q. Who has laid this regulation down? How does this come to pass that because 
you go inside, although you are still graded as letter carrier you cannot wear the uni- 
form? — A. I cannot tell you that, in fact we do not know what we are, we are like 
somebody's lost child, and we have been deprived of these privileges. 

Q. In the Civil Service List are you still classed as letter carrier? — A. Yes, but 
what seems strange is they ask us to pass an examination as clerks and still keep us 
on the list as letter carriers. 

Witness discharged. 



Ottawa, September 4, 1907. 

Mr. James W. Ross, Letter Carrier Ottawa City Post Office, called and sworn and 
examined. 

By the Chairman: 
Q. You were desirotis of giving us some of your experiences Mr. Ross? — A. I 
might say that I have been in the service for seventeen years. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Were you born in this country? — A. Yes, I was born down near Cornwall at a 

place called Dickinson's Landing. As I mentioned before I have been seventeen years 

in the service and I have had what is called an Irishman's promotion, I have been 

going backwards. When I entered the service I had passed the qualifying examin- 






ROYAL COMMISSION OH THE CIVIL SERVICE 847 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

ation and I worked as a letter carrier for about twelve years, then they took me inside 
to do the same work as Mr. Fagan here does, clerk's work, and although I asked to be 
made a clerk I never got it. I never wanted to go inside but when I did the work I 
asked to be appointed as clerk. 

Q. Do you not get extra pay ? — A. When the new Bill came in I took the benefit 
of the new Bill, and then they put me on at $2 per day. I went on that way for a 
short time and then they put me at $2.25 per day and I have kept at that ever since. 
But when they took me inside I lost my uniform, my free boots and my free rides on 
the cars. 

By Mr. Bazin: 

Q. Why did you go inside? Did you go inside because they asked you or were 
you obliged to go in? — A. Well, we always think you know — at least I do — that it is 
better to do as you are told. I suppose if I had ' kicked ' I need not have gone in, 
we did ask to come out at one time and they said they would look into it but that is 
the last we have ever heard of it. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. You think the mouse should not quarrel with the cat ? — A. Xo sir, I do not 
think it should. I do not think I have a black mark against me, I never was suspend- 
ed or anything like that, and I do not see why, when I am doing clerk's work, I should 
not get clerk's pay and be made a clerk. 

Q. Have you spoken to your superior about it? — A. I have, I went up to see 
Dr. Coulter once by myself and spoke to him about it, and he said that all these pro- 
motions come through Mr. Bates, Deputy Postmaster. I spoke to Mr. Bates about it, 
and that is the last I have heard of it; that is three years ago. 

Q. You did not lodge any written complaint ? — A. No, I wrote to the Department 
asking for promotion but I never heard anything from them. 

Q. Are you a married man? — A. I am sir. 

Q. Have you a family? — A. I have sir. 

Q. What rent do you pay? — A. Well, of course, you see I live in my own house 
and do not pay any rent. 

Q. How did you manage to get a house of your own? — A. I had a little means 
before I went in as letter carrier and my wife had a little. 

Q. So that helps you? — A. That helps us quite a little, yes sir. 

Q. Still that has nothing to do with the emoluments from your office? — A. I do 
not think the Government should take advantage of what a man has if he gives hi3 
labour honestly and truly I think he ought to be paid for it. 

Q. Who do you consider the head of your Department? — A. In the Post Office? 

Q. Yes ?— A. Mr. Bates. 

Q. Are you not subject to the supervisor of the letter carriers? — A. Yes sir, Mr. 
Larue. 

Q. Although doing a clerk's work you are classed as a letter carrier? — A. Yes. 
' Q. And you are under Mr. Larue? — A. So we are. 

Q. Who was Superintendent when you were taken in? — A. Mr. Warwicker was 
Superintendent when I was taken in. it was he took me in. 

Q. Does he agree with the Assistant Postmaster that his staff should do clerk's 
work? — A. I think so: he claims that letter carriers who have thoroughly studied their 
duties and have become acquainted with the work of the branch make better men for 
the inside than can be obtained by bringing in clerks from the outside, for the simple 
reason that they know the duties of the office better. If you bring in a man from out- 
sjd" the service to do the work of sorting he could not do it at all. it would take him 
two years to become efficient. 



848 ROYAL COMMISSION OS THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 
By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. You do a lot of sorting, I suppose? — A. Yes, we do the sorting for the whole 
city, we have to know the whole city. 

Q. That is your work? — A. Yes, that and some other little clerical work. 

Q. And you think you are quite competent to do clerk's work? — A. Yes, I am an 
old school teacher, I taught school for nine or ten years before entering the service. 
In reference to. the age of retiring we think that the letter carrier should not be a3ked 
to put in thirty-five years before he is retired, we think twenty-five years would be 
long enough considering the nature of the work and the exposure to which he is 
subject; it is pretty heavy work. 

By the Chairman: 
Q. You consider that the old style letter carriers should go out at a fixed age, but 
what about the new people, those who are under the new regulations, those who have 
no superannuation or anything else? — A. Yes, well, if I was in that boat I would 
not stay in the Post Office; if I could get my retiring money out of it I would not 
stay in the Post Office, I would leave, that is with the wages I am getting. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. At what age can you retire? — A. There is no fixed age, we are supposed not 
to be under sixty years. 

Q. And you must have served thirty-five years? — A. Yes, to get the full allowance. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. That is thirty-five fiftieths of your salary? — A. That is seven-tenths of our 
salary. 

Q. That is the only thing that keeps you in the service, and if you were to die 
about the time you were retiring your family would get nothing? — A. No, only my 
insurance which I have outside the Government insurance fund. 

Q. I suppose ther« are a great many men in worse circumstances than you are? — 
— A. I think there are a great many worse off than I am. This gentleman here (Mr. 
Fagan) has a family of thirteen children. 

Mr. Fagan — Oh no I had ten and I lost one.) 

A. (Continued) This gentleman has ten children and how can he keep them at 
$2.25 a day and educate them. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. Do you keep an account of your household expenditure? — A. I can give you 
that because I keep a cash account the year round. 

By the Chairman: 
Q. How many children have you? — A. I have four. 

Q. Are thpy all dependent on you? — A. No, no, all but one; I have one boy 
attending McGill college. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. How can you send a boy to McGill college on your salary? — A. I have inde- 
pendent means. I made it before I went into the service. 

Q. Do you not think you would be better off if you had never gone into the 
service ?— A. I certainly do. I went into the service because at the time I was troubled 
with rheumatism and I wanted to get lighter employment and be in the open air. 

By th^ Chairman : 
Q. Finding that you were troubled with rheumatism which was laying you up 
sometimes and was an injury to you in your former employment you came into the 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 849 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Government service as a letter carrier ? — A. I came into the service because I would be 
outdoors and because the work would not be as hard on me as the occupation I was 
then engaged in. After I had been in the service a short time I took typhoid fever 
and was laid up with that and since then I have never been troubled with rheumatism. 

Q. You entered the Post Office service as a letter carrier thinking it was an easier 
job than the employment in which you were then engaged? — A. I must tell you it was 
an easy job when I first came into the service because we had lots of letter carriers 
and none of them had very heavy work. I have been able to do my trip in half an hour 
sometimes. 

Q. How long ago is that? — A. That was seventeen years ago but it is not that 
way now, the work is heavy now, I could never have stood the work then if it had 
been as heavy as it is now. 

Witness retired. 



Mr. James W. Eoss, recalled. — I desire to state, Mr. Chairman, I mentioned that 
the examination was for clerks only, that was when we were told to write on it, and 
I said that as we were letter carriers and not clerks we were not included in the 
officials who were required to pass the examination. Of course it is true I failed in 
my first examination, and I wrote again and I do not know whether I have passed 
the second examination or not. 

By the Chairman: . 

Q. You were a schoolmaster before entering the service, and still you failed to 
pass an examination — of course there is no discredit in failing to pass an examina- 
tion? — A. Yes, you do not get as much mathematics in your examination under the 
Civil Service Act, but the Post Office Act is about as much mixed up as anything you 
can get; it is worse than trigonometry. 

(Since being examined by your Commission I have been informed that I have 
passed the clerical examination on the duties of office referred to in my evidence. — 
J. W. E.) 



MEMOEIAL OF LETTEE CAEEIEES AT OTTAWA POST OFFICE. 

To the Honourable the Eoyal Commissioners appointed to inquire into matters per- 
taining to the Civil Service of Canada. 

The letter carriers of Ottawa post office desire to express their satisfaction upon 
the appointment of a Eoyal Commission to deal with matters affecting them. They 
are confident that justice will result of your work. They realize the hard task of th',- 
Commissioners, and beg to offer any assistance they can to lighten their work. 

The staff at Ottawa is composed of forty-six permanent employees, out of a 
total of over 600 stationed throughout the different cities of the Dominion, all of whom 
are working under the same circumstances and conditions now existing in this city. 

The letter carrier, unlike most of the workmen, has from the outset of his career 
to accept full responsibility for all his acts, and is placed upon duties of a responsible 
nature. The importance of his work in the performance of duties so exceptionally 
severe require of him a large expenditure of both physical and mental force, more 
arduous and exacting than that of any other class of the service, and should not be 
lost sight of in determining his standard of remuneration. 

29a— 54 



850 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

His services are reliable from the start, and with every year's experience his knowl- 
edge of the work increases and his usefulness to the public and the department in- 
crease accordingly. His duties commence from one and a half to two hours before 
despatch of delivery. During this time he has to set up his mail and be responsible 
for its safe delivery. Each delivery he repeats the routine of the previous one, and in 
addition to this he has to keep an up-to-date re-direction book of newcomers and 
removals, re-direct all necessary correspondence, keep a record of undelivered matter 
on his walk, collect insufficiently paid correspondence, make all inquiries from the 
public as to delayed and missing matter. Considerable tact and mental activity are 
required in order that his duties are promptly and efficiently performed, and while he 
is rendering this valuable service to the department and the public without supervi- 
sion, are of themselves important factors in determining the responsible character of 
his work, and should enter into the consideration of his wages. 

The essential qualities demanded of him are that he has a big physical standard. 
He must also possess a good character as to honesty, sobriety, civility, and punctuality 
in dealing with the several matters passing through his hands, and while unlike most 
other members of the civil service, he has to perform his duties in all kinds of 
weather, entailing upon him a greater amount of physical disabilities, he feels that 
the salary paid him is entirely insufficient to maintain him and secure the necessaries 
of life for an average family. 

He is aware of the enormous increase of rents in the several cities of the Do- 
minion, which during the last seven or eight years has increased from 40 to 60 per 
cent, while the cost of living has increased 33 per cent, and in some cases 50 per cent. 
He has been granted permission by persons and firms who have furnished information 
to the ' Civil Service Association,' and contained in its memorial to your honourable 
body, to say that the same statistics stand to-day with a slight increase on some lines 
of goods. 

While the wages of all other workmen have been advanced, in some cases several 
times, and especially so among provincial and municipal employees and the profes- 
sions generally, he feels he should participate in this prosperity. Also, while the 
carrier has to consume long hours of work every day he sees his fellow-workmen in 
other emplojment going to wovk at eight and nine o'clock a.m. He sees them enjoy- 
ing the Saturday halt' holiday and the statutory and local holidays, when they can 
have a little recreation, so necessary to their physical health. He is also aware that 
the late Postmaster General, Sir Wm. Mulock, stated that eight hours should consti- 
tute a day's work in the post office for both clerks and carriers. 

He feels that the present law governing his salary is manifestly unjust to him 
as he is paid on a per diem allowance and no matter how laborious or exacting the 
duties he is called upon to perform in addition to the severe discipline and hardship 
of the service the postal laws prohibit him from engaging in any gainful occupation 
while in the service, and the physical ills he may contract through exposure to all 
kinds of weather, with the ever increasing and responsible duties devolving upon him 
due to the rapid growth of our city, he is subject to loss of pay in accident and sick- 
ness, a disability not attached to any other branch of the service. 

While his duties are more arduous and exacting than any other branch of the 
service, should entitle him to pay in accident and sickness. 

In striking contrast with the law governing the letter carriers' salaries, the law 
regulating the salaries of the other officers of the department whose salaries are paid 
by a yearly allowance, and no matter how laborious and exacting his duties are, and 
the irregular hours at which he takes his meals (barring exposure and risk of acci- 
dents) is subject to loss of pay in sickness, and that as a simple matter of justice the 
disability attached to him in this respect should be removed. 

It would be a distinct encouragement to the best efforts and proper ambitions of 
a letter carrier if provision were made to assure his advancement, and the following 
is respectfully submitted : — 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 851 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

That upon evidence satisfactory to the Postmaster of the efficiency and faith- 
fulness of a letter carrier, he shall recommend him eligible for transfer to the service 
of clerk up to the grade of junior second-class after having successfully passed an 
examination, such examination to have reference only to the duties of office. 

He is gratified to note that the Post Office Department is a source of revenue and 
no longer a burden on the tax-payers of the country. He is proud of the fact that 
while performing a most useful service, lie is helping to produce a fund from which 
any compensation recommended by your honourable body would be drawn. 

He feels confident that an examination of this question will establish the justice 
of his claim, viz., increased compensation. 

Yearly salary in lieu of per diem allowance. 

Pay during sickness, as all other branches of the Civil Service. 
- Promotion to clerkship when recommended by the postmaster. 



Post Office Building, 

Montreal, Wednesday, Sept. 11. 1907. 

The Commission met at 10.30 a.m. Present : Mr. J. M. Courtney, C.M.G., I.S.O... 
Chairman, Mr. Thomas Fyshe and Mr. P. J. Bazin. 

Mr. E. Barcelo, Superintendent Montreal Post Office, called, sworn and examined. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. You are post office superintendent at the Montreal city post office ? — A. Yes. 

Q. You have been there twenty-three years ? — A. Yes, I have been twenty-three 
years in the service in August. 

Q. "What position did you occupy when you entered the service ? — A. I entered 
the service as a temporary hand, as stamper. 

Q- And you passed through all the grades up to the position of post office superin- 
tendent which you now occupy ? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That is to say you passed through the junior third, the senior third and so on? 
— A. No, sir, at that time there were no junior or senior third, I passed through the 
third, second and first-class. 

Q. And then became post office superintendent ? — A. Yes. 

Q. And you were made post office superintendent on March 1, 1905 ? — A. I be- 
lieve that was the date, yes, sir. 

(Memorial of the employees of the Montreal Post Office submitted and read.) 
By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. You ask in the memorial that those officials who work on legal holidays be 
allowed four weeks holidays instead of three ; I suppose practically everybody would 
work on Sundays and holidays ? — A. Practically everyone, except Money Order and 
Savings Branch, and letter carriers, on Sundays. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. That is everybody connected with the distribution of the mail? — A. Yes, those 
actually engaged in sorting the mails, incoming and outgoing. 

Q. You will allow this memorial to form part of the exhibits? — A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Also the scale of prices of commodities? — A. Yes, sir. 
29a— 54* 



852 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. What are all these figures? — A. That is a statement from the different dealers 
doing business in the city showing the prices of commodities in daily use. We also 
have an item about the pension system which will form a part of our memorial. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. You are superintendent of the city post office in Alontreal, you have three 
hundred permanent employees in the post office? — A. I think we have more permanent 
employees than that. 

Q. That is counting the number in the Civil Service List? — A. They are not all 
on that list. 

Q. Will you give us the exact number of employees engaged in the post office ? — A. 
One postmaster, one assistant postmaster, one superintendent, seven first-class clerks, 
13 senior second-class clerks, 28 junior second-class clerks, 21 senior third-class clerks, 
33 junior third-class clerks, 17 fourth-class clerks, three stampers and sorters, one 
porter, one messenger, two joiners, 16 letter carriers at per annum allowance, 211 grade 
men at per diem allowance. All those I have mentioned are on the permanent staff. 
On the temporary staff there are 73 labourers, porters, and letter carriers, making a 
total staff of 432. 

Q. Next to the postmaster and assistant postmaster, you are the chief officer in 
the post office? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How are the' juniors appointed? — A. The juniors? 

Q. Yes, the letter carriers, third-class clerks, &c, how are they appointed? — A. 
The letter carriers, third-class clerks, labourers and sorters are appointed by the depart- 
ment at Ottawa. 

Q. On the nomination of? — A. I believe on well 

Q. On the nomination of the local member, I presume \ — A. I do not know exactly, 
we get the names of those appointed from the department at Ottawa. 

Q. You, here, have nothing to do with the selection of the men to be appointed? — 
A. No, sir, we have not. 

Q. The names of the people to be appointed are given to you by the department 
at Ottawa ? — A. The names of the people are given to us by the department. 

Q. What do you do if you find a man is inefficient? — A. We are asked by the 
department to report after a certain time as to his proficiency. 

Q. If you find a man utterly inefficient, what then? — A. We report accordingly to 
the department. 

Q. In such case, is the man ever got rid of? — A. Yes. 

Q. He is? — A. Yes, I think there are instances where they have been gotten 
rid of. 

Q. But the moderately inefficient, the dull man, is he allowed to remain? — A. As 
far as permanent employment is concerned? 

Q. Yes. Once a man gets in unless he has very bad habits, or is utterly foolish, 
you cannot get rid of him, is that the case? — A. No, I would not say that. 

Q. You think you have quite a reasonable lot in the employment of the post office 
here ? — A. That is as to permament employees ? 

Q. Yes ?— A. 1 think so. 

Q. Referring to the temporary employees, how long are they continued as tem- 
porary before they get permanent positions? — A. We have temporary employees who 
have been here for years and years. 

Q. Why can't they be appointed permanently? — A. Because they were appointed 
at a time when they had not passed the necessary examination, and also by reason of 
their over age. 

Q. But they are still kept on the temporary list ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Take a letter carrier, I presume the test of a good letter carrier is that he de- 
livers his letters? — A. That he delivers all his letters promptly, yes. 



ROYAL COMMISSION 0-Y THE CIVIL SERVICE 853 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. If he brings back a proportion of his mail that shows he is rather inefficient, 
does it not? — A. Yes, or if he delivers them to the wrong address. 

Q. The test is that he delivers all his mail properly ? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What happens to a man if he does not deliver all his mail, if he brings back 
a large proportion of his letters? — A. First of all, at the beginning he is given a 
caution, that is done in the first place, but if it is found that this happens too often, 
then he is reported to the department as inefficient. 

Q. Then if he goes on still being inefficient? — A. He is reported to the depart- 
ment who find a way to put him out — if it is before he is made permanent of course. 

Q. That comes to another thing. Do you ever make any man permanent who 
comes back after his daily delivery with a lot of letters undelivered? — A. If we find 
that a letter carrier is doing his duty properly or right, but if he is not we report him 
to the department. 

Q. Is he ever got rid of? — A. Sometimes we ask that he be given another chance, 
and he may be able after further trial to do the work properly. 

Q. But if he does not? — A. If he does not we report him to the department and he 
is got rid of. 

Q. Are they always got rid of in such cases? — A. Yes, on the recommendation of 
this office. 

Q. Is there not such' a thing as strength in politics that would keep an inefficient 
man on the staff as letter carrier? — A. I do not think so against the will of the office. 

Q. Politics would not prevail in such case? — A. I do not think they could. 

Q. That is a good thing. Now with regard to the subordinate positions, what is 
the lowest grade of clerk, is it the junior third? — A. No, stamper and sorter. 

Q. Now, with regard to the fourth-class clerks, have you ever put letter carriers 
to do their duty? — A. Yes, we have. 

Q. Do these letter carriers wear uniforms whilst performing that duty ? — A. No — 
if it is only temporary they are allowed to wear their uniform, that is if they are 
going back to carrying letters they are left with their uniforms, but if they are to 
remain at the clerk's work, they are not supplied with uniforms. 

Q. Although they are graded as letter carriers they are not supplied with uniform 
when employed at clerk's work? — A. They are not. 

Q. Then the fact is a letter carrier may sometimes do clerk's duty, being still 
graded as a letter carrier and is at the same time deprived of his uniform and of his 
car tickets? — A. Yes. 

Q. Then he would suffer, wouldn't he? — A. Yes, I believe so. 

Q. Does that system prevail to any great extent here? — A. To a good extent, sir. 

Q. You do that for dread that you would have incapable fourth-class clerks put 
upon you because of politics? — A. No, we have done that from necessity; we have 
found that the distribution of mails to be delivered by the letter carriers was done 
better by men who had gained experience as letter carriers, and they were taken in 
to the office as sorters. 

Q. Could not these letter carriers be given some compensation for the deprivation 
of uniforms and the privilege of riding on the street cars? — A. Yes, I believe so, but 
there has been nothing done, no arrangement has been made to give them compensation 
for it. 

Q. As they are graded as letter carriers is there any lack of dignity about it, why 
should they not be allowed their uniform still, although doing clerks' work? — A. I do 
not know the reason exactly except that they are not carrying letters outside. 

Q. Well then, the orders from Ottawa are that nobody should wear uniform except 
actually engaged in the outside work of delivering letters? — A. I believe so, I do not 
know whether it is a cast-iron rule. 

Q. Did any instructions come down from Ottawa to that effect? — A. It is so long 
since this has been the rule I do not know. 

Q. It is habit? — A. It is the habit, but it has been the habit for so long that I 
do not know really how the order was first given. I might say, in that connection, that 



854 ROYAL COMMISSIOH OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

many of these carriers have been given an opportunity of being made clerks, but, I 
believe, it was on condition that they would begin with a lower salary than they are 
now receiving, that is they would be reduced in salary. 

Q. But they would have the prospect of promotion to higher grades? — A. Yes. 

Q. That is to say that the letter carrier would suffer a temporary reduction in his 
salary in the hope of benefiting by promotion to higher grades in the future? — A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. You were saying that all these nominations and appointments come from 
Ottawa. Do you find the local politicians coming into the post office to find out whether 
they have any vacancies? — A. I would not know very much about that, because they 
would go to the assistant postmaster. 

Q- Who is the assistant postmaster? — A. Mr. L. J. Gaboury. 

Q. He has only been appointed recently? — A. Since October last. 

Q. Mr. J. L. Palmer had long service in that position before Mr. Gaboury's 
appointment. What was Mr. Gaboury's position before he was appointed assistant 
postmaster? — A. He was clerk in charge of the local dead letter branch. 

Q. Did he come down from Ottawa? — A. Eeally, I could not tell you, I only 
knew him after he was here as clerk in the local dead letter branch. 

Q. I cannot find his name on the permanent staff in the Civil Service List? — 
A. I think he formed part of the Interior Service before being named deputy post- 
master. I think he belonged to the Ottawa inside service. 

Q. He had apparently $900 per year salary? — A. Oh, I could not tell you, I never 
knew what his salary was before. 

Q. I only find one Mr. Gaboury here, but whatever he was he was brought from 
Ottawa to be made assistant postmaster? — A. He was not brought from Ottawa, he 
belonged to the inside service, but was doing service in the post office here as clerk in 
charge of the dead letter branch. 

Q. He was doing duty here although a member of the inside service? — A. Yes. 

Q. Practically Mr. Gaboury is a new man so far as the work of the post office 
is concerned? — A. I believe Mr. Gaboury, before he took charge as assistant post- 
master, spent some time in this office and the Toronto office making himself familiar 
with the nature of the work. 

Q. You say that the local politician does not come to inquire about vacancies 
in the post office ? — A. Not to my knwledge. They may sometimes, but I could not say 
to what extent. 

Q. How do you find out when vacancies have to be filled up here? — A. When 
we find that the work has increased and that we need additional help, or when some 
of the employees have left the service, then we apply for assistance. 

Q. The pressure to appoint does not come from outside? — A. Oh, no, we make 
enough pressure, but we do not always obtain all that we ask for. 

Q. The promotion here in the post office is very slow, is it not? — A. Yes, sir, 
very slow. 

Q. How long have you been in the service, do you say? — A. I have been twenty- 
three years. 

Q. I suppose you consider that you might have been assistant postmaster or even 
postmaster? — A. Oh, well, I have not that ambition. 

Q. There is no prospect of any junior here ever attaining the rank of post- 
master? — A. Not postmaster, I do not believe so. We always were under the impres- 
sion that was not a position to which one of the staff could attain. 

Q. How many postmasters have you had here within the last ten years? — A. I 
think there would be two — I do not know exactly when Mr. Dansereau retired; he 
was followed by Mr. Beausoleil, and Mr. Harwood is the present postmaster. 

Q. How long was Mr. Dansereau postmaster? — A. A few years. 

Q. And who was his predecessor? — A. Mr. Lamothe. • 

Q. He was superannuated as an old man? — A. Yes. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 855 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. Then Mr. Dansereau came in and spent a little brief existence, and Mr. 
Beausoleil came in, what became of him? — A. He died. 

Q. And then Mr. Harwood came in? — A. Yes. 

Q. He was appointed at the mature age of sixty-seven, was he not? — A. I do 
not know his age exactly. 

Q. That is the record in the Civil Service List,; he was born in 1838, the same 
year I was, and he was appointed when he was in his sixty-seventh year? — A. I sup- 
pose the record is correct. 

Q. I suppose you had practically to tell him all that is doing in the post office? 
■ — A. Oh, well, he does not ask us much.* 

Q. He d : d not ask you?— A. No. 

Q. You do not know anything, I suppose, of the railway mail clerks' or inspec- 
tor's branches? — A. No, sir, not very much. 

Q. They are distinct branches? — A. Distinct branches. 

Q. We will have them here. Have you, besides that which is contained in this 
voluminous report you have kindly given us, any other suggestions. We wish you to 
be frank in making sugestions to the commission? — A. Well, we have the night ser- 
vice difficulty. We find it is necessary to have a night service here, and it is not 
always an easy matter for us to get employees to do the night service. There are 
always some objections offered owing to the fact that the night service is more 
strenuous, and we find that sometimes the clerks cannot remain on that service any 
length of time; and especially when they are newly married they object to go on that 
service; they say they cannot leave their wives alone, and that they have to find 
people to go and remain in the house whilst they are on duty. 

Q. This night service is a necessity in the post office? — A. An absolute necessity. 

Q. Could you not arrange that by adopting the method which is in force in the 
Dominion police? They have to furnish a night service, and it is arranged by shift- 
ing the hours so that the men who would be on night service one week would be on 
the day shift the next week. The force is divided into watches? — A. That would 
give rise to another difficulty which involves a change in the habits of the men, a 
change in their hours for meals and all that, and we find that owing to the nature 
of the work it is rather hard on the system, that the stomach, for instance, does not 
do its work as easily or satisfactorily under constantly changing conditions. 

Q. But would it not tend rather to the benefit of the office if the occupation of 
the staff were varied? — A. To the benefit of the office? 

Q. Yes, to change the men around so that they would have a variety of occupa- 
tion? — A. Not very much, because it is practically the same work. 

Q. Practically the same work only that it is done in the night time instead of 
the day? — A. Night instead of day. 

Q. Do you shift men about from the money order and savings branch to the 
general routine of the office? — A. No. 

Q. Or is it that when once a man gets into the sorting branch he stays there ? — A. 
Yes, as a rule. 

Q. And that goes on from the time he enters the service until the time he leaves? 
— A. Not altogether, but pretty much so. 

Q. Do you know anything of the English public service ? — A. No, sir. 

Q. You are not aware that the post office officials there are shifted about all over 
the Kingdom ? — A. I do not know that. 

Q. That the man who might be assistant postmaster at Brighton might be ap- 
pointed postmaster at Cardiff if a vacancy arises there ? — A. No, sir, I am not aware 
of that. 

Q. And that there is no bar to the letter carrier rising in the public service ? — A. 
No, I have not any knowledge of those things. 

Q. Do you not think it would be better that all the positions in the service should 
be open to any member of the service ? — A. I think it would be better, sir. 



856 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

* 7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. The remuneration of the office is based on the amount of revenue received is 
not that the theory upon which the salary is fixed ? — A. Well, I do not know. 

Q. Did you ever read the Civil Service Act? — A. I think I have read it once, 
but I do not remember if I read it entirely or only parts of it. 

Q. It begins the schedule of salaries for city postmasters ' When the postage 
collections exceed $250,000 ' ? — A. I know about that. 

Q. And that applies to assistant postmasters also \ — A. Well, I did not know that 
it applied to assistant postmasters. 

Q. Yes, ' When the postage collection exceeds,' and so forth. I was going to say 
that almost everything regarding the city post offices remuneration hinges on the 
amount of revenue received ( — A. I knew about the postmasters, but not about the 
assistant postmasters or clerks. 

Q. What is the present revenue of the post office at Montreal? — A. I think it 
will be close on one million dollars this year. 

Q. What I am trying to bring out is this, that the whole scale of salaries is 
based on a revenue of $250,000 when this Act was promulgated and now the revenue 
of the Montreal office is $1,000,000. If the theoiy which seems to be laid down in the 
Civil Service Act with respect to the salary still holds good the remuneration should 
be varied as the revenue of the office increases ? — A. I believe it should be readjusted. 

Q. Have any of your letter carriers recently been arrested or sent to prison for 
stealing letters ? — A. Not very recently, not since the beginning of the year. 

Q. Have there been many complaints about the theft of letters ? — A. Well, I think 
there have been less lately. 

Q. How do you find them out, by decoy letters ? — A. Well, we find out that there 
have been thefts first of all by the complaints, but I might say that these complaints do 
not come to us directly, they go to the Post Office Inspector. 

Q. Then the uniform system is to have decoy letters for the purpose of detecting 
the thief ? — A. We employ some other means sometimes. Lately we have dispensed 
with the services of a few men who were not arrested but who we found were not doing 
the proper thing. They were not tested by decoy letters. 

Q. Have any letter carriers been dismissed lately on account of drunkenness? — A. 
There have been two dismissed since January. 

Q. When you see that a man is given to drink, or when his habits begin to be 
suspicious, his expenditures lavish, do you keep guard on that man ? — A. Yes, but 
we have very few like that. 

Q. I do not know whether you have or have not. But in a large service like yours 
— how many letter carriers have you — A. 150 at least. 

Q. Naturally in a number like that there must be a certain proportion of men 
who require watching ? — A. There are, but those who are drunkards we dispense with 
their services. 

Q. You think all these fourteen grades ought to be simplified, you have said that 
in your memorial ? — A. They should be very much simplified. 

Q. Coming to the question of superannuation I think you were going on to ex- 
emplify that, would it not be desirable that some provision be made for pensions to 
those dependent on public servants as well as for public servants themselves '. — A. 
Yes, sir, it would be of much value. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 
Q. You do not mention pensions to dependents in your memorial ?— A. I do not 
think we do. 

By the Chairman : 
Q. You simply ask that the old system be restored? — A. And that a clerk with 
twenty-five years service should, if he desires, be able to obtain a pension and retire 
from the service. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 857 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. Under the old system was there not the disability that if an official died none 
of In- abatements went to his family '. — A. Yes, that was found to be an undesirable 
state of affairs. 

Q. Frequently in a large service like the Montreal post office officials have died 
after paying into the superannuation fund for years and nothing went to their 
family? — A. They only got the two months' gratuity. 

Q. But they got no refund of the superannuation payments? — A. None that I 
know of. 

Q. Is there anything else that strikes you and that you would like to say to the 
Commission? — A. Well, personally I have nothing else, except that I might add, we 
have mentioned it in our pension memorandum, that clerks should be allowed to retire 
after passing a certain age. As it is now, they figure on our list as members of the 
staff though they are not doing the service that we might expect, and, therefore, the 
staff suffers to that extent. Our work is of a nature that requires quick action and 
clear memory, and after attaining a certain age we cannot expect that vigour and 
energy and quickness of action which are necessary for the prompt performance of 
the work. 

Q. By the way, how many people have you in the post office here who are classified 
as labourers? — A. We have seventy-three on the temporary list who are classified as 
labourers, porters and letter carriers. 

Q. Are not these men shoved into the service because they have not passed the 
examination? — A. I believe so. 

Q. Is it not a fact that because they have not passed their examination, having 
to be employed you have to classify them as labourers? — A. Yes, sir, because they 
have not passed the examination and because they are over age. 

Q. Under the recent regulations and definitions have you had such a good lot 
coming into the service? — A. No, sir. Very often you will find that a man after 
entering the service remains a few weeks and then resigns because he finds that the 
position is not what he expected it to be; it is not sufficiently remunerated. 

Q. Looking at the openings for any decent man now in Canada, have you as many 
applicants for the service here now as before? — A. Xo, sir, I do not believe so. 

Q. Are the men who apply as good as they used to be? — A. No, sir, they are not 
as good that is true. 

Q. Have you many women employed in the post office here \ — A. We have a steno- 
grapher and typewriter, and I know on our list there are the names of one or two other 
women who are employed in the dead letter office. 

Q. The number of women employed is few? — A. There are a few but they are not 
under our direction. 

Q. Are there frequent resignations in the present staff? — A. They are quite fre- 
quent; much more so that before. 

Q. How are the stamps sold? — A. The stamps are sold by an official to the dealer. 

Q. And the cash comes to the office here? — A. To the office here, yes. 

Q. Do the officials handling the stamps give any fidelity bonds ? — A. Oh, yes, they 



do. 



Q. Who pays the premium on those? — A. They do. 



By Mr. Bazin: 
Q. Is there a special branch for this? — A. They are sold in the accountant's 
office. There is just one man attending to the sale of these stamps. 
Witness retired. 

Mr. Edouard Barcelo, recalled. 

By the Chairman: 
Q. What is your opinion on this question of passing the night work around? — A. 
I believe that the idea of shifting the men around is quite right to a certain extent, 



858 KOYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

but if you take the Money Order and Savings Bank branches, there are only a very 
limited number of men employed there as compared with the whole staff, so that it 
would be a little difficult to have all the hands employed in one of the larger branches 
passing through either of those branches. 

Q. I know it would, but the officials in the Money Order and Savings Bank 
branches get three weeks' holidays yearly? — A. Oh, yes. 

Q. And the work of the branch is going on whilst they are away? — A. Yes, but 
I would say in that respect there are only ten or eleven men in that branch. 

Q. When one of that particular branch takes his holidays how is his work done? 
— A. They go one at a time. 

Q. Then the remaining ten or eleven do his work whilst he is away, is that it? — 
A. We generally get in a temporary hand to do it. 

Q. Would it not be better to get a permanent hand from one of the other branches 
to go in there? — A. It would, certainly, and it has been done to some extent, but not 
as regularly as it might be. I believe it would have a good effect if the men were 
made au fait with all the work in the different branches that is in the money order, 
savings, registration and delivery; outside of that there are practically no other 
branches. It really takes a long time for a man to get posted in the despatch branch, 
and to learn the routine of distribution, and it is the same way in the delivery branch, 
because there are details which a man does not grasp very quickly, and it is only time 
that gives him experience. That might be done in these branches. 

Q. Generally speaking, it would be a benefit to the service if the people employed 
in the office had a general understanding of the duties of all the branches of the office? 
■ — A. There is no doubt of that. 

Q. There are only daily returns made to the department at Ottawa? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. From the accountant's branch? — A. No, sir, they are made from the assistant 
postmaster's office. 

Q. All the chiefs of the different branches send their returns to the assistant 
postmaster? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. The accountant of the savings bank and the registration and everything else 
is all sent to the assistant postmaster? — A. Yes, that is as far as the staff is con- 
cerned. 

Q. And then the assistant postmaster sends them on ? — A. Yes, I generally do that 
myself. 

Q. When is your office closed here for the sale of stamps to the public? — A. Do 
you mean for retailing stamps? 

Q. Yes? — A. They close at 7 o'clock, that is the regular stamp vendor, and then 
we assume the sale of stamps until 10 o'clock at night. 

Q. When do you cease to sell to the dealer?— A. Well, practically early in the 
afternoon. 

Q. The banks close at 3 o'cock?— A .Yes. 

Q. You have a certain amount of money always on hand not deposited? — A. Yes, 
Bir, but not from that source, it is more from the money order and savings bank. 

Q. But you have a certain amount of money necessarily lying over night? — A. 
Yes. 

Q. At what hour do you deposit your money with the banks? — A. Close to 3 
o'clock. 

Q. And then you deposit as much as you can? — A. Ap much as we can. 

Q. Then the balance has to remain until next morning? — A. Yes. 

Q. There is no help for that? — A. I do not see any. 

Q. What kind of vaults have you?— A. We have a good vault, a brick vault, and 
the stamps and post cards are kept in the vault, but the money is now kept in an 
ordinary burglar proof safe. 

Q. Who has the keys of that?— A. Well, the clerk in charge, the accountant in the 
Money Order branch. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 859 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. The money derived from the sale of stamps is put in this burglar-proof safe, 
is it not? — A. Yes, it is all handed over to the Money Order branch. 

Q. You say that the sale of stamps goes on until 10 o'clock at night ? — A. Pardon 
me, that is not the post office, the stamps are sold to the public by the stamp vendor. 

Q. Yes, he has a stall in the building? — A. Yes, that is his own private affair. 

Q. But after he closes up at 7 o'clock? — A. He hands us over a certain amount 
of stamps which we sell on his behalf, these stamps have not been paid for by the 
department. 

Q. Anything he turns over to you is at his own risk? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you go on selling at his risk until about 10 o'clock at night? — A. Yes. 

In reference to the night work, I do not think it would be very easy to make a 
change, unless it was for a certain length of time, because as I was telling you a few 
minutes ago, we find a difficulty in obtaining willing men for the night work. They 
have always more or less good reasons to bring forth against it, and when we find a 
man is willing to work at night time we are glad to have him continue to do so. 

Q. But Mr. Coffey is quite a young man? — A. Yes. 

Q. And you are not always lucky in having a man like Mr. Coffey ? — A. No, we 
were lucky in having Mr. Chandler who preceded him. 

Witness retired. 



To the Honourable the Royal Commission appointed to inquire into Matters per- 
taining to the Civil Service of Canada 

On behalf of the employees of the Montreal post office we beg to submit that 
since the establishment of the scale of salaries now in force the cost of living has in- 
creased 40 per cent, and to meet this ever-increasing cost we beg respectfully to ask 
that our salary be increased at least 33J per cent, this placing Civil Service em- 
ployees on the same footing as 20 years ago. 

It is an indisputable fact that all classes of labour have been advanced at least 
33 ; > per cent during the last ten yeaVs, and more than 50 per cent since the estab- 
lishment of the present Civil Service scale of wages. This in a large extent is due 
to the fact that living in a large crty like ours is manifestly more expensive than in 
smaller cities. The cost of car fare, for instance, alone being a very large item each 
month. We would, therefore, humbly submit that the commission take into con- 
sideration that, in ou\r humble opinion, the time has now come when classification of 
cities be established, such as is done in the United States, as larger salaries are 
needed to meet the expensive cost of living in such cities. 

With further reference to the subject of the increased cost of living, see exhibit 
A, attached herewith. 

EXAMINATIONS. 

We recommend the establishment of the preliminary and qualifying examina- 
tions — preliminary fclr carriers and porters and qualifying for clerks. Experience 
shows that such examinations had the effect of bringing a better class of men into 
the service. 

CLASSIFICATION. 

We beg respectfully to recommend that the fourteen different classes now ex-, 
isting in city post offices be abolished, and that in addition to the assistant postmaster 
and superintendent three classes only be established, namely, first, second and third. 
(Third class to include third class clerks, letter ca!rriers and porters.) Second class 



860 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE! CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII.. A. 1908 

to include clerks having had ten years' service and having the proper qualifications ; 
first class to include all clerks in charge of branches and those doing specific duties. 

SALARY. 

In reference to the foregoing recommendations folr the establishment of three 
classes only, in addition to the assistant postmaster and superintendent, we beg to 
recommend that the following be the scale of salaries: — 

Third-class clerks — To commence at $500 per annum, with an annual increase 
of $100 up to $900, and then advanced by an increase of $50 per annum up to the 
maximum of that class, which should be $1,200. 

Letter carriers and porters. — To be placed at the same salary as third-class clerks, 
and if their services are satisfactory after five years, that they may be given a clerk- 
ship on the recommendation of the postmaster, without being obliged to pass the 
qualifying examination. 

Second-class clerks. — To comprise persons who have passed through the various 
stage of the thiird class — promotions to this class to be made in order of seniority, 
all things being equal. The salary of thi3 class to commence at $1,300, with an annual 
increase of $100 until $1,400 is reached, then $50 annually until $1,600 is reached, 
which shall be the maximum of this class. The number of second-class clerks to 
be at least 25 per cent of the inside staff of this office. 

First-class clerks. — Salary of this class to commence at $1,700 and advance by 
annual increases of $100 up to $2,000, which should be the maximum of this class. 

Office superintendent. — Salary of superintendent to be fixed at $2,500 annually. 

Assistant postmaster. — Salary of assistant postmaster to be fixed at $3,500 annu- 
ally. 

SUNDAY WORK. 

An item that we desire to hiring to the notice of the commission is that of Sun- 
day work, which is a necessity here, and which we consider as extra work, and in our 
opinion should be paid for at the rate of double time, the same as is done in all other 
concerns. We would at the same time suggest that extra pay may be allowed for 
overtime, the same as is done in the customs and other places. 

LEGAL HOLIDAYS. 

We also beg to recommend that it would be in the interest of the service to keep 
this office open on legal holidays, and give the same service as on any other day; our 
experience for the last few years being that it is an absolute impossibility to do the 
work properly by working only half a day on such holidays. This half day on holi- 
days demoralizes the business of the office for the next day dfcr two. As a recompense 
for those obliged to werk on such holidays we beg to ask that the annual leave be 
four instead of three weeks. 

AGE. 

In our opinion the question of age should receive the serious consideration of the 
Commission. We would respectfully suggest that the entrance age be between eighteen 
and twenty-five. 

TEMPORARY EMPLOYEES. 

We beg to recommend that temporary employees now in the service who do work 
of a permanent nature and who entered the service under thirty years of age be made 
permanent, and that temporary employees now in the service who entered the service 
when over thirty years of age be granted a per diem allowance of $2.50 and receive 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 861 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

two weeks annual leave ; that in future no temporaries should remain in the service 
as such over six months, and that pay in all such cases be $2,50 per day. 

CITY SORTERS ON MAIL TRAINS. 

We also beg - to recommend that employees in this office who sort mail for city de- 
livery on incoming mail trains be granted mileage, the same as railway mail clerks. 

SUPERANNUATION. 

We strongly recommend the abolition of the retirement fund, and the re-establish- 
ment of the superannuation system, as heretofore, with the exception that clerks after 
twenty-five years, and carriers after twenty-one y^ars of service may retire, if they wish 
to do so. The advantages of the superannuation system over the retirement fund are 
so obvious that we need hardly point out that efficient employees have no reward be- 
fore them by persistency of service under the retirement fund, and are free to choose 
their own time of withdrawal, while at the same time there are the usual constraints 
put upon an inefficient employee to remain in the service. In further, connection with 
the subject see Exhibit B. 

In conclusion we beg respectfully to draw the attention of the honourable Com- 
mission to the fact that our exhibit showing the increased cost of living covers only 
increases of recent years, and that this increase is ever climbing upwards, is we think, 
emphasized by the fact that during the present week we are notified that bread is 
advanced 2 cents per loaf, milk 8 cents per gallon and coal 75 cents per ton. 

The whole respectfully submitted. 

(Signed) 

E. BARCELO, 

J. TAYLOE, 
A. E. MOEIX, 
H. CHANDLER, 
A. JACQUES, 
T. CALLAGHAN. 

Montreal, September 11, 1907. 



We respectfully beg to append to our memorial the following statement showing 
increase of revenue, etc., for this office since April, 1907, over corresponding months 
during 1906. 



Months. 



April . 
May. . . 
June . . 
July. . 
August 



1906. 



$ Cts. 

53,890 30 

59,100 00 
54,138 00 
57,053 48 
61,477 37 



1907. 



$ cts. 

69,533 89 
74,058 00 
67,412 47 
70,830 50 
74,888 46 



Increase. 



s cts. 

15,643 39 
14,898 00 
13.274 47 
13,777 02 
13.411 09 



This statement shows the revenue from the sale of postage stamps to local dealers 
alone. Other sources of revenue from money order, postal notes, &c, are not com- 
pared herein. 



862 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 
BRITISH MAIL RECEIVED. 



Months 




May. . 
June . . 
July. . . 

August 



Si( ks. 



1,079 
9S1 

1,003 
1,064 



1907. 



Sacks. 



1,524 
1,570 
1,446 
1,697 



Increase. 



Sacks. 



445 
579 
443 
633 



BRITISH MAIL FORWARDED. 



April 



— Letters., 

Papers. 
— Letters. 

Papers. . 
— Letters. 

Papers. . 
— Letters. 

Papers. 
August— Letters. 

Papers. , 



May 

June 
July 



Lb. 

8,401 

2S.431 
10,479 
32,172 
10,372 
34,126 
11,121 
38 450 
11,094 
39.876 



Lb. 



Lb. 



12,858 


4,457 


46,630 


18,199 


12,872 


2,393 


37,984 


5,812 


13,639 


3,267 


39,347 


5,221 


14,220 


3,099 


45.434 


6.9S4 


15,887 


4,79a 


47,208 


7,332 



Registered letters and parcels registered during 1906-7 : — 



April . . . 
May. . . 
June . . 
July . . . 
August . 



No. 

85,963 
88,312 
90,032 
88,436 
87,669 



Xo. 

103,578 

100,527 

93,524 

100,975 

100,950 



Xo. 

17,615 
12,215 
3,492 
12,549 
13,281 



In connection with the above, we beg respectfully to point out that Montreal is 
a distributing centre for the Dominion, and is obliged to handle very large quantities 
of matter which is credited to the revenue of other places. 

We would also like to point out that this city is very cosmopolitan, and on that 
account the legal holidays are not generally and equally observed by the trade. This 
explains why we have to work on such holidays almost as much as on ordinary days. 



EXHIBIT <B. 



The Superannuation Fund. 

The principal reasons for its maintenance and the conditions in which it should 
be established: — 

I. 

Its re-establishment would be as much in the interest of the department as that 
of the employees. 

1. We are in an era when the Governments of the other countries, the directors 
of large financial and educational institutions, even the religious institutions, estab- 
lish pension funds for their employees. We, therefore, conclude that it would be very 
advantageous for the Government of Canada to establish this very system as it is 
done elsewhere. 

2. The department through the pension fund would insure the permanent ser- 
vices of better qualified employees, because when an employee has been several years 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 863 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

in the service, the prospect of it holds him to his post, whereas without it he is tempted 
to leave for more lucrative positions. 

II. 

It would also be in the interest of the employee: 

1. The salaries of the Post Office Department being lower than that of other 
institutions requiring the same qualifications, there must be a serious inducement for 
a man to accept a position in this department, and keep it when he has obtained it. 

Moreover, the past experience has always demonstrated that it was easier to retain 
the services of well qualified employees, because notwithstanding the fact that the 
salary was not exorbitant, the prospect of a pension fund was in reality a great in- 
ducement for them to stay. 

2. Although it is the apparent intention of the department to increase the 
salaries, it would be only to help the employees to a limited degree to face the require- 
ments, because we firmly believe that it would be desultory to hope for a real tangible 
increase, that would be proportionate to the actual cost of life. 

We must, therefore, conclude that if it has been impossible to make any savings 
up till now, there would be hardly any possibility of making any after the projected 
increase. , 

3. Another motive imposes itself: it is the security that the pension fund gives 
in case of invalidity through illness, old age or debility. 

I here mention the case of debility, because it is a general cause of invalidity in 
the postal service. The work requires a greater degree of energy than in any other 
department, because it necessitates a concentrated and constant attention, and the 
means of recuperation, in the majority of cases, are almost nil through the irregularity 
of the hours of duty, or rest, of meals, and the frequent changes of habits required 
by the service. 

If, for instance, a man has work in day time during a year or two, and that he 
is called to change to night work, he must necessarily change completely his habits of 
living. Then, the waste of nervous energy increases, imperceptibly perhaps, but con- 
stantly and surely. 

4. We were lately informed by the papers that thirteen clerks in St. John, N.B., 
post office, had become insane since 1893. The cause was attributed to the unsanitary 
state of the building, but a well posted person on the nervous tension exacted for post 
office work will readily attribute this state of things to the constant strain on him. 

In conclusion we would like to draw your special attention on the re-establishment 
of the pension fund. What induces to-day several employees to option for the present 
system called the ' Eetirement Fund,' is the fact that there is not a fair equilibrium 
between the contribution to the pension fund, and the prospect of enjoyment of the 
superannuation. The chances are almost all on the side of the department if the 
employee cannot obtain his superannuation before the sixty-year age limit. It has 
been demonstrated that under these conditions the number of those who have been for- 
tunate enough to enjoy the superannuation has always been extremely small. This is 
the main reason why the actual has been preferred by a certain number of employees, 
as they believed it is preferable to draw a smaller amount of retiring than contribute 
to a fund with such limited prospects of enjoyment. 

Therefore, we respectfully suggest, that the pension fund be demandable after 
twenty-five years service. England, France and Belgium have pension funds of this 
kind, and Canada should adopt them too. 

We might add to the preceding suggestions that at the age when a man has given 
twenty-five years of his life to the service, that his health is so shattered either through 
illness or the multiplied exigencies of the service, that he shortens his existence in 
continuing under these conditions. 

Hd is not yet incapable of work, but if he had the option of asking for his super- 
annuation he could take a well deserved and needed rest and insure himself a long 



864 ROYAL C0M11ISSI0X OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII.. A. 1908 

lease of life, because notwithstanding the woes and tribulations of this life, we natu- 
rally want to cling to it as long as possible. 

We can affirm here that the majority of the employees under the actual system 
would prefer the Pension Fund System,if it was re-established with this stipulation 
that it could be demandable after twenty-five years' service. 

(Signed) T. A. GIROUX. 

Montreal, September 11, 1907. 

SUMMARY. 

Exhibit A. 

Groceries, advanced from 25 to 30 per cent. See Exhibit 1 

Meats " 20 to 25 " " 2 

Provisions " 25 to 30 " " 3 

Milk and cream 20 " " 4 

Dry goods " 25 to 30 " " 5 

Bread ". " 20 to 25 " " G 

Furniture " 25 to 30 '* " 7 

Coal " 20 to 25 " " 8 

Hardware 25 9 

Ice " 60 " " 10 

Real Estate " 33J " " 11 

Montreal, le 29 .iuin, 1907. 
J. R. C, 

Cher Monsieur, — Nous vox>s exposons respectueusement quelques uns des motifs 
pour lesquels nous demandons une augmentation de salaire, nous vous soumettons 
done humblement que le cout de la vie a augmente considerablement depuis nombre 
d'annees. 

Epiceries augmentation de 25 a 30 p. 100 voir Exhibit n° 1 



Viandes " 20 a 25 

Provisions " 25 a 30 

Lait et Creme " 20 

Marchandise seche 25 a 30 

Pain " 20 a 25 

Meubles " 25 a 30 

Charbon " 20 a 25 

Ferronnerie 25 

Glace " 20 



9 
10 



Une autre question non moins importante est la question sociale qui a aussi son 
importance et ses obligations. 

Respectueusement soumis, 

(Signed) W. H. PRUDHOMME. 
L. J. FILION. 
L. D. A. R. de COTRET. 

A. Dionne, Son & Co., 

WHOLESALE AND RETAIL GROCERIES AND MEATS. 

Montreal, le 19 juin 1907. 

Monsieur, — A votre demande de renseignements concernant l'augmentation de 
la valeur des marchandise depuis les deux a trois dernieres annees nous constatons 
une augmentation par cent sur les: — 

Epiceries de 20 a 25 

Provisions " 18 a 25 

Poissons " 10 a 15 

Volailles " 35 a 40 

Viande " 30 a 40 

(Signe), A. DIONNE FILS & Co. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 865 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Mathewson's Sons, 
wholesale grocers. 

Montreal, June 14, 1907. 
R. Decotret, Esq. 

Dear Sir, — We think it is within the mark to say that the bulk of goods in our 
line have advanced twenty-five per cent in the last fifteen years. 

Yours, 

MATHEWSON'S SONS. 

Hudon, Hebert & ClE. 
d'epiceries, vlns et liqueurs. 

Montreal, 25 juin 1907. 
M. J. L. Gaboury, 

Sous-directeur des postes, 
Montreal. 

Monsieur, — Nous avons regu votre lettre du 21 juin. Au sujet des articles de 
consommation qui font l'objet de notre commerce, apres etude, nous constatons que 
dans la derniere decade, il s'est produit, en moyenne, une hausse de 15 pour 100, et 
ceci au bas mot. Cette hausse s'applique aux articles de toute premiere necessite 
com m p. a d'autres qui sont en tres grand usage. 

Nous esperons que cette information vous sera d'utilite pour le but que vous 
avez en vue. 

Bien a vous, 
(Signe) HUDON, HEBERT & CIE, Ltmitee. 
Zeph. Hebert, gerant. 

Joseph Lamoureux & Co., 

MANUFACTURERS OF CHEMICAL PRODUCE, FRENCH BLACKING, STOVE POLISH, CONCENTRATED 
LYE, JAMS AND JELLIES, ETC., ETC. 

Montreal, 21 juin 1907. 
Monsieur R. De Cotret, 

Chef de la station C. 

En reponse a votre demande, savoir l'augmentation du cout de la vie, nous pou- 
vons vous dire que les marchandises dont nous faisons le commerce ont certainement 
augmente de 25 a. 30 pour 100 et nous avons augmente le salaire de nos employes en 
proportion. 

Vos devoues, 
(Signe) JOS. LAMOUREUX & CLE. 
E. B. 

Herron-Leblanc, Limited. 

Marrotte, Lellanc & Company. 

windsor coffee and spice steam mills. 

Montreal, 22 juin 1907. 
Mi. R. de Cotret, 

Chef de la Station Postale C, 
Montreal. 

Cher monsteur, — Notre opinion ayant ete solicitee, nous recommandons au 
departement des Postes ce que nous avons fait nous-memes a nos employes et nous 
29a— 55 



866 ROYAL COMMISSION ON TEE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

voyons qu'une augmentation de salaire est urgente vu le cout de la vie qui a aug- 
ments de 25 pour 100 depuis quelques annees. Veuillez nous croire, cher monsieur, 

Vos humbles serviteurs, 
(Signe) BZERRON-LEBLANC, LIMITED, 

Joseph Leblanc, President. 

Sugars & Canners, Limited, 
maple syrup. maple sugar. 

Montreal, June 21, 1907. 
Mr. R. Decotret, 

Chief Post Office Station C, 

Amherst Street, Montreal. 

Dear Sir, — Agreeable with your request, we unhesitatingly state that we are in 
a position to know that the cost of living has increased during the past ten years from 
25 to 30 per cent, and we have increased our workmen's pay in this proportion. 

Yours truly, 
(Signed) SUGARS & CANNERS, LIMITED, 

J. C. Gardiner, Mgr. 

iETNA Biscuit Company, Limited. 

Montreal, 21 juin 1907. 
M. R. Decotret, 

Bureau poste, rue Amherst, 
Montreal. 

Monsieur, — En reponse a votre demande de vous donner notre opinion sur l'aug- 
mentation du cout des produits et aliments necessaires a la vie, nous croyons pouvoir 
vous certifier que depuis quelques annees le cout en est monte de vingt-cinq a trente 
pour cent, et que pour ces raisons nous sommes obliges de payer nos employes beau- 
coup plus cher qu'avant. , 

Vos devoues, 
(Signe) .ETNA BISCUIT COMPANY, Ltd. 

Per J. B. S. Pres. 

Masson et St-Germain, 
fabricants de biscuits et sucreries. 

Montreal, 19 juin 1907. 
M. R. Decotret, 

En ville. 

Cher monsieur, — En reponse a votre demande verbale nous declarons que dans 
notre estimation le cout de la vie est augmente d'au moins 25 a 30 pour 100 compare 
a il y a dix ans. 

Vos tout devoues, 
(Signe) MASSON et ST-GERMAIN. 

William Galbraith & Sox, 
wholesale grocers 

Montreal, June 17, 1907. 
Thomas Lamoureux, Esq.. 
Montreal. 

Dear Sir, — Referring to our conversation regarding the proportionate cost of 
living now and say fifteen to twenty years ago. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 867 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

I have no hesitation in stating that considering the advance in rents and in fact 
nearly all the necessaries of life, the cost of living has advanced from 25 to 35 per cent- 
Then it must be remembered that the pay for ordinary labourers twenty years ago 
was $1 to $1.25 per day. whereas, to-day similar men are getting from $9 to $10 per 
week. 

Yours very truly, 

(Signed) WM. GALBRAITH. 

Laporte, Martin et Cie. 
montreal. 

Montreal. Can.. 14 juin 1907. 
M. R. Decotret. 

Chef du bureau de poste, station " C ", 
Ville. 

Monsieur, — En reponse a votre demande nous devons vous declarer que depuis 
une quinzaine d'annees, le prix des marchandises en general a augmente de 25 a 30 
pour 100. 

Esperant que cette information pourra vous etre de quelque utilite, nous nous 
souscrivons. 

Vos devoues, 
(Signe) LAPORTE. MARTIN et CIE, 
Per L. A. Delorme, sec.-tres. 

L. Chaput, Eils et Cie. 

Montreal, 19 juin 1907. 

M. R. DE C'OTRET, 

En ville. 

Monsieur, — Repondant a la question que vous nous posez sur l'augmentation du 
cout de la vie a Montreal depuis une quinzaine d'annees, nous n'hesitons pas a decla- 
rer que l'augmentation est au moins de 25 a 30 pour 100 de plus. 

Nous verrions avec becoup de plaisir une augmentation proportionnelle dans les 
salaires des employes du bureau de poste. 

Esperant que le gouvernement agreera favorablement votre suggestion, nous demeu- 
rons, 

Vos devoues, 
(Signe) L. CHAPUT. FILS et CIE. 

N. Collin & Cie, 

MARCHANDS EPIC1ERS. 

Montreal. 17 juin 1907. 

Nous, soussignes, declarons par la presente que depuis de dix ou quinze ans le 
prix des marchandisjes d'epicerie ont certainement augmente de 25 a 30 pour 100. 

(Signe) N. Collin et Cie. 

D. C. Brosseau, & Cie, Limitee, 
epiciers en gros. 

Montreal, June 17, 1907. 
R. DE COTRET; Esq., 

City. 

Dear Sffi, — As it has been experienced by the jjast ten or fifteen years the cost of 
living has considerably grown up. 
29a— 55^ 



868 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 



7-8 CDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Cost of labour and salaries in all branches consequently have all been advanced 
and we would see it convenient for all Government employees in the post office to 
have their salaries increased proportionately to the high cost of living. 

Dear, sir, yours truly, 

(Signed) T). C. BROSSEAU & CO., 

Limitee. 

Per S. BESCHALETETS, 

Secretaire. 



L. 0. BArgencoubt, 

EPICIER ET MARCHAND DE YINS. 

Montreal, 19 juin, 1907. 

M. D. E. de Cotret, 

liaison de poste, 

Montreal-Est. 

Cher monsieur, — En reponse a votre demande de renseignements au sujet du coiit 
de la vie aujourd'hui compare a ce qu'il etait il y a quinze ans passes, je desire vous 
informer que je considere que les choses les plus necessaires a la vie content mainte- 
nant 25 a 30 pour 100 de plus qu'il y a une quinzaine d'annees. 

Prenons. par exemple, les ceufs qui se vendaient autrefois 2 douzaines pour 25 cents, 
et qui ne se vendent jamais maintenant moins que 20 cents la douzaine. 

Le beurre, le saindoux, le lard, le jambon, le bacon, les feves, les pois, sont aug- 
mented d'au moins 15 a 25 pour 100. Le saindoux qui se vendait 10 cents la livre vaut 
aujourd'hui 16 cents, le lard qui se detaillait 9 et 10 cents se vend aiijourd'hui 15 cents, 
ainsi de suite. 

Les fruits, legumes et viandes de conserves (canned goods) ont subi une hausse de 
15 a 25 pour 100. 

Le prix du savon et autres articles pour le lavage est augmente de 10 a 12 pour 100. 

Les biscuits ont monte de 12 a 15 pour 100. 

Je puis ajouter qu'il n'est pas probable que les prix ci-dessus mentionnes subis- 
sent une baisse avant longtemps, si jamais cela arrive. 

Bien a vous, 
(Signe) L. O B'ARGENCOURT. 



VlAU ET FRERE, 
MANUFACTURERS de biscuits, etc. 

Montreal, 17 juin 1907. 

M. R. de Cotret, 
Ville. 
Cher monsieur, — En reponse a votre demande verbale, nous declarons que dans 
notre estimation, le coiit de la vie est augmentee d'au moins 25 a 30 pour 100, compare 
a il y a dix ou douze ans. 

Nous serions heureux de voir le gouvernement prendre votre demande en consi- 
deration et vous accorder une juste augmentation de salaire. 

(Signe) VIAU et FRERE, 

J. B. Beguise, gerant. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 



869 



SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Lockerby Bros., Limited, 
wholesale grocers, teas, coffees and specialties. 

Montreal, June 17, 1907. 
Thomas Lamoureux, Esq., 
City. 

Dear Sir, — Replying to your conversation over the 'phone of recent date re cost 
of living, would say that to my knowledge the cost of living is 25 per cent more to- 
day than it was ten years ago. 

Trusting this will be of service to you in obtaining your advance. 

I remain, yours very truly, 

(Signed) A. L. LOCKERBY. 

Diamond Flint Glass Co. )Limited). 
montreal works. 

Montreal, June 21, 1907. 
B. De Cotret, Esq., 

Post Office, Station C, 

Amherst St., Montreal.' 

Dear Sir, — Replying to your inquiry regarding the increased cost of living in 
Montreal. Erom our own experience we know that the cost of rents, food, &c, has in- 
creased a great deal during the past few years, and we are now paying the majority 
of our employees about 20 per cent more wages than formerly. 

Yours truly, 
(Signed) DIAMOND FLINT GLASS CO., LTD., 
Montreal Wroks. 
N.M.Y, E.W. 

J. S. Stanford, 
jellied and delicately prepared meats. 

Montreal, June 21, 1907. 
Mr. L. Filion, 

Dear Sir, — Please find as follow a statement showing the increase in the follow- 
ing meats, poultry and vegetables. 

RETAIL PRICES. 



Year. 


Beef. 


Pork. 


Lard. 


Veal. 


Chick- 
ens. 


1904 


5-17 


6-16 


5-15 


4-15 


11-17 


1C03 


5-17 


6-17 


5-15 


4-15 


10-16 


19l)6 


5-18 


6-18 


5-17 


4-17 


10-18 


1907 


5-20 


6-18 


6-20 


5-20 


12-20 



Turkeys Ducks. 



12-17 
12-18 
13-18 
14-20 



12-15 
12-15 
13-17 
13-17 



Geese. Vegetables. 



10-12 
10-13 

12-14 
11-13 



(Alarked in- 
crease, 5 to 
15 p.c. 



A. DUFORT, 
BOUCHER. 

Montreal, 19 juin 1907. 

Je, soussigne, declare par la presente que depuis une quinzaine d'annees le lard a 
certainement augmente au moins de 20 a 30 pour 100. 

(Signe) NAZ. DUFORT. 



870 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Eacette Freres, 
bouchers. 

Montreal, 19 juin 1907. 
Nous, soussignes, declarons par la presente que le cout du lard a augmente d'au 
moins 25 a 35 pour 100 depuis quinze ans. 

(Signe) RACETTE FPERES. 

Alfred Richard, 
fresh beef, salted, salt tongues, mutton and veal. 

Montreal, 19 juin 1907. 
Je, soussigne, declare par les presentes que les viandes out augment ees de 20 a, 25 
pour 100 depuis les dernieres dix annees. 

(Signe) ALFRED RICHARD, 

19 marche Bonseeours, 

Montrea 1 . 

Wm. Clark, Packer and Preserver of Meats, 

Montreal, June 17, 1907. 
Mr. Thomas Lamoureux, 
City. 
Dear Sir, — Replying to our conversation over the 'phone of recent date re cost 
of living, would say that to my knowledge the cost of living is 25 per cent more" to- 
day than it wa3 ten years ago. 

Trusting this will be of saVvice to you in obtaining your advance, I remain, 

Yours truly, 

(Sgd.) W. CLARK. 

Dandzl Furlong, 
Wholesale and Retail Dealer in Choice Beef, &c, 

Montreal, June 19, 1907. 
L. Filion, Esq., 

Dear Sir, — In response to your request about the relative prices of fresh meat3 
now and the past few years what increase in the price to the consumer, and if in- 
crease, what in my opinion is the cause. 

Beef, alive or dead, is from 25 to 35 per cent dealrer than it was three years ago, 
and the same can be said of all other meats; the increased cost to householders may 
be traced, firstly, to the greater export trade, and also to the rapid rise in wages of 
help and the very great increase of feed of all kinds, also the shoirtage of hay are 
reasons for the unusual conditions of affairs. There are, no doubt, perhaps some other 
minor causes which will develop more in time, but the main cause I believe to be 
the foregoing. 

Hoping this will meet your requirements, 

I beg to remain, 

(Sgd.) D. FURLONG, per M F. 

Geo. Dubois, 

BOUCHER. 

Montreal. 28 juin 1907. 
M. R. de Cotret, 

Chef de la station C, 

Rue Amherst. 
Monsieur, — En reponse a votre demande, je dois vous dire que depuis une quin- 
zaine d'annees les viandes sont augmentees sans exagerer 25 a 30 pour 100, et que le 



ROYAL COMMISSION OH THE CIVIL SERVICE 871 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

cout de la vie est augmente en proportion, et il serait desirable que le gouveri.em ent 
prendrait en consideration cette augmentation dn cout de la vie actuelle pour rendie 
justice aux employes du bureau de poste en general. 

Je suis votre, etc., 

(Signe) GEORGES DUBOIS. 

W. Champagne. 

Montreal, 19 juin 1907. 

M. R. DE C'uTRET. 

Je, soussigne. declare que depuis douze a quinze ans les provisions ont augmentees 
de 15 a 30 pour 100. 

(Signe) W. CHAMPAGNE. 

J. A. Yaillancourt. 

NEGOCTANT COMMISSIONAIRE. 

Montreal. Canada, 22 join 1907. 
M. R. de Cotret, 

Chef de la station postale C, 

Departement des Postes. 

Rue Amherst, Montreal. 

Monsieur, — En raison de l'augmentation constante dan? les prix des produits ali- 
mentaires et autres, loyers, etc., je crois qu'une augmentation proportionnee s?rait 
bien justifiee et approuvee. 

Agreez, monsieur, Fexpression de mes sentiments devoues et salutations empressees. 

(Signe) J. A. VAILLAXCOURT. 

The Guaranteed Pure Milk Company, 
montreal. 

Station 'B,' Monteeal, June 21, 1907. 

Sir, — Will you be so kind as to favour me with a statement of the increase in the 
price of milk and cream, for the last three to five years, and oblige, 

Tours very truly, 

(Signed) L. FILIOX. 

Clerk in charge. 

The only increase in price of milk and cream during the last five years took place 
on May 1, 1907, when an increase of 1 cent per quart on milk and an increase of 5 
cents per quart on cream has been in force since the above date. 
Yours truly, 

(Signed) THE GUARANTEED PURE MILK CO. 

Per A. Loynachan. 

R. J. Inglis, 

HIGH CLASS CIVIL AND MILITARY TAILOR. 

Montreal, June 26, 1907. 

L. FlLION, 

Station 'B/ Montreal. 

Dear Sir, — Replying to yours of the 21st inst., would say that fifteen per cent is 
the closest we can figure in the advance of clothing in the last four or five years. 

Yours truly. 

(Signed) R. J. INGLIS. 

Per D. S. Inglis. 



872 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

' 7-3 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Dupuis Freres, 
le grand magasin departemental de l'est. 

Montreal, 18 juin 1907. 
M. R. de Cotret, 

Chef du bureau de poste, 
Station C. 

MoNSffiUR, — En reponse a votre demande, nous vous informons que depuis une 
dizaine d'annees il y a eu une augmentation de 20 a 25 pour 100 dans le prix des 
marchandises que nous debitons. 

Bien a vous, 
(Signe) DUPUIS FRERES. 

A. McDougall & Co. 

Montreal, June 19, 1907. 
Mr. R. de Cotret, 
Montreal. 

Dear Sm, — In answer to your inquiry regarding the increase in our lines of goods 
since fifteen years we beg to say that there has been an increase of price of not less 
than 20 per cent to 25 per cent during that time, and we are certainly pleased to give 
you that information. 

Yours truly, 

(Signed) A. McDOUGALL & Co. 



The Dominion Oil Cloth Co., Limited. 

Montreal, June 21, 1907. 
R. de Cotret, Esq., 

Chief, Post Office Station O, 

Amherst St., Montreal. 

Dear Sir, — In reply to your inquiry the writer has no hesitation in stating that 
the cost of house rents, supplies and many articles of wearing apparel has increased 
very considerably in Montreal during the past ten years. 
Yours very truly, 

(Signed) THE DOMINION OIL CLOTH CO., LTD. 
John Baillie, Man. Director. 



Fin ley, Smith & Co., 
woollens and tailors' trimmings. 

Montreal, June 20, 1907. 
Mr. R. de Cotret, 

Chief, Post Office, Station C, 

Amherst St., City. 

Dear Sm, — In reference to the matter of the price of woollens, we have no hesi- 
tation in saying that there has been an increase of twenty- five to thirty per cent, in 
the cost during the past fifteen years. 
Believe us, 

Yours truly, 

(Signed) FINLEY, SMITH & CO. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 873 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Maison Vallieres, 
importateurs de kouveautes. 

Montreal, 15 juin 1907. 
M. R. de Cotret, 

Chef du bureau de poste, 
Station C. 

Monsieur, — II est bien reconnu de tous, que la vie coute beaucoup plus cher 
depuis quelques annees; pour notre part, nous sommes obliges de payer de 20 a 25 
pour 100 plus cher a nos employes, nous esperons que le gouvernement rendra justice 
aux employes du bureau de poste, qui, en general, ont des salaires insuffisants pour 
subvenir a leurs besoins. 

Bien a vous, 
(Signe) A. S. VALLIERES et CIE. 

Hodgson, Sumner & Co., Limited, 
importers of dry goods. 

Montreal, June 19, 1907. 
Mr. R. de Cotret, 

Section C, Post Office, 

Amherst Street, City. 

Dear Sir, — In answer to the inquiry made, in your behalf, this morning, we beg 
to say that the prices of such goods as we deal in have been advancing materially for 
some years past, and that, in so far as the cost of living is affected by the use which 
must be made of such goods, such cost of living must necessarily be higher than it 
was some years ago. That, speaking generally, the cost of living is much higher 
to-day than it was some years ago is, of course, an obvious fact. 

Yours truly, 

HODGSON, SUMNER & CO., LIMITED, 

John T. Carroll, Secretary. 

Greenshields. Limited, 
dry goods, wholesale. 

Montreal, June 17, 1907. 
Mr. R. de Cotret, 

City. 

Dear Sir, — Referring to your inquiry about the increased cost of living in the 
city, we believe in the past fifteen years it must have gone up at least from 20 to 25 
per cent. Salaries and cost of labour have all been advanced, and we hope to hear 
that the Government employees in the post office will have their salaries increased in 
proportion to the increased cost of living. 

We are, dear sir, yours truly, 

GREENSHIELDS LIMITED, 

E. E. B. Fetherstonhaugh, Director. 

The New York Silk Waist M'f'g Co., Limited. 

Montreal, June 19, 1907. 
Mr. R. de Cotret, 

City. 

Dear Sir, — In reply to your inquiry with regard to the increase in cost of living 
in this city, we have no hesitation in affirming that during the last fifteen years it has 



374 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

certainly shown an increase of not less than 25 per cent; in some localities owing to 
the scale of rents it would show even as much as 30 per cent. We certainly should 
he well satisfied if the Government could see their way clear to increase the salaries 
of our excellent post office clerks, officials and postmen also. 

Yours truly, 
THE NEW TOKK SILK WAIST M'FG CO., LIMITED, 

J. S. Leo, Secretary-Treasurer. 

A. O. Morin ET Cee, 

IMPORTATEURS ET MANUFACTURERS. 

Montreal, 17 juin 1907. 
M. R. de Cotret, 

Chef du bureau de poste, station " C ', 
Montreal. 

Monsieur, — Xous vous prions de vouloir bien noter que depuis une quinzaine 

•d'annees les prix des differentes marchandises ont augmente de 25 a 30 pour 100. 

Agreez, monsieur, nos salutations amicales, 

(Signe) A. O. MORIN et CIE. 

Par R. S. J. 

A. Racine et Cie, 

IMPORTATEURS DE MARCHANDISES SECHES EN GROS. 

Montreal, 17 juin 1907. 

M. R. DE COTRET, 

Chef du bureau de poste. 
Station C. 

Monsieur, — En reponse a votre demande, nous nous informons que depuis une 
quinzaine d'annees il y a eu une augmentation de 25 a 30 pour 100 sur les prix de la 
marchandise seche. 

Croyez-nous, monsieur, vos, etc., 

(Signe) ALPHONSE RACIXE et CIE. 

Par J. V. B. 

Maison Letendre, Fils ET Cie. 

Montreal, 18 juin 1907. 
M. R. de Cotret, 

Chef de departement, bureau de poste. 

Monsieur. — En reponse a votre demande. nous declarons que depuis nombre d'an- 
nees la marchandise en general est augmentee de 25 a 30 pour 100. 
Dans Fespoir que cette information pourra vous etre utile. 

Vos bien devoues, 
(Signe) LETENDRE, FILS et CIE, 

p. Hurtubuise. comp. 

A. Langlois, 

BOULANGER. 

Montreal, 26 juin 1907. 

Cher monsieur. — En reponse a votre demande, il me fait plaisir de vous don:er 
•des explications sur l'augmentation du prix du pain depuis cinq ans. 

1. La farine a subi des hausses ehaque annee variant de 20 a 25 pour 100. 

2. Le salaire de nos employes est augmente de 25 pour 100. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 



875 



SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

3. L'entretien du roulant est plus dispendieux, tels que reparage des ventures, nour- 
riture des chevaux dont les prix ont subi une hausse de 75 a 100 pour 100 sur les prix 
de l'au dernier. 

4. Les assurances sur le feu ont subi une hausse de 25 pour 100, meme plus. 

5. Le loyer est augmente de 30 pour 100. 

En un mot notre marchandise n'a pas augmentee si nous comparons les prix de 
1902 avec les prix d'aujourd'hui, notre pain a subi une baisse pour nous de 15 pour 
100. Veuillez recevoir mes salutations, et je serai toujours heureux de vous renseigner 
sur nos prix et les causes de toute augmentation. 

Votre tout devoue, 
(Signe) AOH. LANGLOIS, 

319 rue Mentana. 

H. A. Wilder & Cv., 

MANUFACTURERS OF AND DEALERS IN FURNITURE, CARPETS, ETC. 

Montreal, June 26, 1907. 
Mr. L. Filion, 

Station B., Post Office, 
City. 

Dear Sir, — In reply to your letter of June 24, re increase in the price of goods 
in our line for the last three to five years, we may say that the price of furniture ha9 
increased from twenty-five to thirty-three and a third per cent during this time. 
We trust that this information may be what you require, and remain 

Yours truly, 
(Signed) H. A. WILDER & CO. 

J. O. Labrecque et Cie, 
agents pour le celebre charbon diamant noir. 

Montreal, 18 juin 1907. 

Monsieur, — Lorsque nous sommes entres en affaire nous vendions notre mar- 
chandise comme suit, savoir : — 

Le stove j> 5.25 

I/erable 6.50 

L'epinette 5.00 

Les slabs 4.00 



Maiutenant $6.50 

7.50 

6.50 

5.50 



Nous sommes avec respect, 

Vos tout humbles serviteurs, 

(Signe) J. O. LABRECQUE et CIE. 



The F. F. Moore Company, 
coal and wood. 

Montreal, June 15, 1907. 
Mr. R. de Cotret, 

Post Office ' Station C \ 
Amherst St., City. 

Dear Sir, — We the undersigned certify that the price of anthracite coal for family 
use has raised from $5.50 in 1896, to $6.50 in 1907, an increase of $1 per ton. 

Yours truly, 
(Signed) The F. F. MOORE CO.. 

Per J. K M. Disy. 



876 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

The Montreal Hardware Manufacturing Co. (Limited). 

Montreal, 21 juin 1907. 
M. E. de Cotret, 
Chef, station C, 

Departement des Postes, 
Rue .Amherst, Ville. 
Monsieur, — Nous avons tou jours considere que les employes de votre departement 
etaient ceux des moins remuneres de tous les departements publics et nous conside- 
rons que vous devriez avoir une augmentation de salaire en rapport avec les conditions 
du jour pour loyer, aliments, etc., lequel n'est certainement pas moins de 25 pour 100 
sur celui des cinq dernieres annees precedentes. 

Bien a vous, 
(Signe) THE MONTREAL HARDWARE MFG. CO., Ltd. 
Diet. A. G. Y., A. G. Yon, Sec -tres. 

to D. M. 

C. Galibert et Fils, 

TANNEURS. 

Montreal, Canada, 21 juin 1907. 
M. R. de Cotret, 

Cher monsieur, — En reponse a votre demande nous venons vous dire que d'une 
maniere generale, le cout de la vie a Montreal a considerablement augmente depuis 
quelques annees. 

Bien a vous, 
(Signe) CTE. GALIBERT et FILS. 

The Letang Hardware Co., Limited. 

Montreal, 28 juin 1907. 
M. R. de Cotret, 

Chef de la station C, 

Bureau de poste, rue Amherst. 
Monsieur, — En reponse a votre demande, nous avons constate que depuis une 
quinzaine d'annees, le cout de la vie a certainement augmente de 25 a 30 pour 100 en 
consideration nous prions le gouvernement de prendre cette augmentation du cout de 
la vie, pour augmenter le salaire des employes. 

Vos tout devoues, 
(Signe) LA CIE DE FERRONNERIE LETANG, LTEE, 

G. Letang. 

Le prix de la glace, article indispensable aux families durant la saison d'ete, a 

augmente de 60 pour 100 depuis 10 ans. et les documents ci-joints prouvent cet avance. 

Quant au cout de transportation, il consiste dans le fait 'de l'obligation ou. se 

trouvent les cornmis qui vont se loger loin du bureau a cause de la hausse des loyers 

au centre de la ville, ce qui entraine une depense de trois a quatre dollars par mois. 

Respectueusement sounds, 

(Signe) A. SAURIOL. 

Nap. Masson, 
marchand de glace, bois et charbon. 

Montreal, 15 juin 1907. 
A ceux que ceci peut concerner : 

Je declare que, etant marchand de glace depuis 1895 et que les prix courants pour 
la glace etaient pour la fourniture a domicile dans le temps de $5 par 10 livres et 



ROYAL C03IUISSI0X OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 877 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

<ju'actuellement depuis 1906 le prix est de $8 pour $10 livres, et les prix a la tonne en 
1895 etaient de $2 et qu'actuellement $3. 

(Signe) NAP. MASSON. 



N. Archambault, 

MARCH AND DE GLACE. 

1907. 

A ceux que ceci peut concerner : 

Je declare qu'etant marchand de glace depuis 23 ans, et que le cout de la glace 
depuis 1895 est augmente de 60 pour 100, en 1S95 le cout etait de $5 par 10 livres pour 
la saison, et depuis 1906 le cout en est de $8 par 10 livres. 

(Signe) N. ARCHAMBAULT. 

Par H. M., proc. 



National Trust Company, Limited, 
real estate department. 

Montreal, July 8, 1907. 
J. Taylor, Esq., 

City Delivery Branch, 

Post Office, Montreal. 

Dear Sir, — In reply to your letter of June 20, I have no hesitation in saying, 
from the experience we have had in the Peal Estate Department of this company, ,that 
rentals generally have increased from 25 to 33 per cent during the last ten years, and 
in many cases the advance has been as much even as 50 per cent. 
It is unnecessary I think to quote specific cases. 

Yours very truly, 

(Signed) A. G. ROSS, 

Manager. 



The Cradock Simpson Company, 
real estate insurance and financial agents. 

Montreal, July 8, 1907. 
F.H.S., E.C. - 
Mr. J. Taylor, 

City Delivery Branch, 

Montreal Post Office, Montreal. 

Dear Sir, — With reference to your inquiry of June 28, re increased cost of living 
in the city of Montreal, we inclose you, herewith, a table showing the various increases 
on properties under the management of this office. 
Trusting this will be satisfactory. 

We remain, yours very truly, 
(Signed) THE CRADOCK SIMPSON COMPANY, 

Per T. W. R. Shane. 



878 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 
TABLE SHOWING INCREASE IN RENTALS OF VARIOUS PROPERTIES IX 1895 AND 1901 AND 1907. 



Street and Numbers. 



33 Wellington street 

35 .. 

37 « 

39 

1002 St. James street 

1004 .. 

1006 .. 

Prince Arthur street— Block of upi>er and 
lower flats — 

Lowers rented in 1901 

1907 

17 Emily street 

19 .. 

21 .i 

97 Osborne street 

99 

101 .. 

103 » 

135 Bayle street 

137 

143 .. 

692 W. Sherbrooke street 

698 » 

141 Mackay street 



ix . Rental per Annum. Present Rental — 1907. 



1895 




8 96 -No 

96 

96 

96 
120 
108 

84 



1901. 
1895 '. 



No taxes 8120- 

96 
108 
120 
144 
144 
96 



-No taxes. 



144 .. and uppers 

180 

186 

186 

186 

240 

240 

240 

240 

400 

360 

300 

750 and property taxes. . 

700 

650 



168 

204 

204 

204 

2<»4 

300 

300 

300 

300 

400 and 

400 

400 

800 and property taxes. 

750 m 

750 



taxes. Abt. 865 



Liverpool and London and Globe Insurance Company. 

Montreal, July 8, 1907. 
J. Taylor, Esq., 

Post Office, City. 

Dear Sir, — In response to yours of the 8th inst., I beg to state that the property 
owned by myself and that of what I controlled has increased 25 per cent these last 
four years, and the salary of servants and clerks has increased at least that much. 

Very truly, yours, 

(Signed) CYRILLE LALRIX. 

D. W. Ogilvie & Co., 

Real Estate and Insurance Brokers, 

Montreal, June 28, 1907. 

J. Taylor, Esq., 

City Delivetry Branch, Montreal Post Office, 
Montreal. 

Dear Sm, — We acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 2Sth instant. We here- 
with give you a few specific cases of increase in rentals of residential property dur- 
ing the last few years, and trust same will be of some value to you : : — 

No. 4351 to 4361 Montrose avenue, Westmount, self-contained cottages, five 
years ago welre rented at from $20 to $30 per month, and are now $35 to $40 per 
month. 

Nos. 957 to 965 St. Catherine street west, tenements, five years ago were rented 
at $18 and $20 per month, and are now $25 and $27.50 per month. 

No. 343 Prince Arthur street about ten years ago rented for $25 per month, and 
now at $35 per month. 

A self-contained house on the corner of Tupper street and Seymour avenue seven, 
years ago rented for $22.50, and now ffents for $35 per month. 

Yours truly, 
(Sgd.) D. W. OGILVIE & CO., Inc., per G. F. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 87S 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

John James Brown & Sox, 

Real Estate Experts and Architects, 

Montreal, June 25, 1907. 
J. Taylor, Esq., 

General Post Office, 
Montreal. 

Dear Sir, — Being asked, by you an opinion on the advance of rentals since 1900, 
I would say the advance since that date bus been from 15 to 30 per cent, on the 
whole, the average being at least 25. Property renting at $10 is advanced to $13 
and $11; property irenting at $12 advances to $15; property renting at $15 is advanced 
to $20 ; property renting at $20 advanced, to $25 ; property renting at $25 is advanced 
to $30 and $32.50, and so on'. Eor instance, a property on St. Hubert, north of 
Rachel, where our clients were getting for the lowetr $13, they are now getting $16.5<J; 
where they were getting $15 for the middle they are now getting $20; $18 for the 
upper, now $22. On Park avenue, above Sherbrooke, tenements renting for $20 are 
bringing $25; tenements renting for $25 are bringing $30 a month. 

The same general increase is thlroughout the whole of Montreal, and there is no 
doubt that as Montreal increases in population, which is not problematical, but an 
absolute fact, rent will increase again. These facts and statements can be corro- 
borated by any other real estate firm of standing in this city. 

Yours respectfully, 
(Sgd.) FITZJAMES E. BROWXE> 

W. Ernest Bolton. Real Estate and Financial Agent, 

Montreal, June 26, 1907. 
L. D. A. de Cotret, Esq., 

Chief of Station O, 

Post Office. 

Dear Sir, — In answer to your inquiries as to inorease of real estate values dur- 
ing the past ten years, I beg to state that in my opinion real estate in Montreal has 
increased from 25 per cent to 40 per cent during that period, and of course rents 
have gone up accordingly. 

Yours very truly, 

(Sgd.) W. ERXEST BOLTOK 

C. E. E. Desai lniers et Fils, 

AGENTS d'lUMEIBLES ET d'aSSURANCES. 

Montreal, 20 juin 1907. 

M. R. DE C'OTRET, 

En ville. 

Cher monsusur, — En reponse a votre demande verbale, nous declarons que dans 
notre estimation, le cout de la vie et les loyers sont augmented d'au moins 25 a 30 pour 
100 compare a il y a dix ans. 

Vos tous devoues, 
(Signe) C. E. L. DESAUENIERS et FILS. 

Johnson & Grace, 
real estate agents. 

Montreal, June 19 ,1907. 
M. R. Decotret, 

City. 
Dear Sir, — In answer to your request whether or not the cost of living has in- 
creased within the past few years, we would say that the cost of living in general, and 



880 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

particularly house rents, of which we know something about, has increased in some 
cases 25 per cent and in some others to 35 per cent, and that we speak from experience 
of estates which we are the administrators of. 

Now, as to food and clothing, I think it is evident to the general public that 
within the last five years same has increased 25 to 30 per cent. We think in general, 
that the post office employees are not paid a sufficient salary to meet the daily require- 
ments, which are increasing yearly. 

We sincerely hope that our liberal Government will take into serious considera- 
tion the question of raising salaries of the post office clerks, which class is the most 
deserving one. 

We remain respectfully yours, 

JOHNSON, GEACE & LEE AGE, 

Eer J. E. Grace. 

Mendoza Langlois, 
immeubles et debentures. 

Montreal, 27 juin 1907. 
M. E. de Cotret, 

Chef du bureau de poste, 
Station C, Montreal. 
Cher monsieur, — Eelativement a votre demande d'informations concernant l'aug- 
mentation des loyers subie depuis cinq ans, je dois vous dire qu'il n'y a pas une seule 
maison que je connaisse qui n'a pas ete augmentee de 25 a 30 pour 100, voire meme 
dans une multitude de cas que je connais, les loyers ont ete augmentes a 100 pour 100. 
Cette augmentation a ete motivee par la rarete des logements ainsi que la hausse des 
prix des materiaux, et des salaires de tous les corps de metiers, et je dois ajouter en 
terminant qu'il n'y a aucune perspective de baisse tant sur le prix des materiaux que 
sur les prix de la main-d'ceuvre, et qu'en consequence, les prix actuellement etablis 
des loyers se maintiendront et subiront encore dans un avenir prochain une autre 
augmentation. Ear l'ere de progres sans precedent que traverse le Canada, l'on ne 
peut s'attendre a ce que Montreal, etant la metropole de tout le Canada laisse ses 
valeurs tombre en depression. 

Bien a. vous, 

(Signe) M. LANGLOIS. 

A. DlONNE, FlLS et Cie, 
EPICERIES ET VIANDES. 

Montreal, 19 juin 1907. 
M. L. Filion, 

Commis en charge, station E, 

Montreal. 
Monsieur, — Les taxes sur la propriete ainsi que la main-d'ceuvre et les materiaux 
etant considerablement augmentes depuis deux a trois ans, les loyers ont du etre en 
proportion, c'est-a-dire de 25 a 30 pour 100 au moins. 

(Signe) A. DIONNE, FILS et CLE. 

Montreal, 21 juin 1907. 
M. Louis Filion, 

En ville. 
Cher monsieur, — E me fait plaisir de vous faire part de mon experience concer- 
nant l'augmentation genefale des prix pour articles de mon commerce. D'abord, mon 
loyer est augmente de 35 pour 100. Le salaire de mes employes de 25 pour 100, et les 
medicaments etrangers ont subi une augmentation de 25 a. 50 pour 100. Qunnt aux 
produits canadiens, l'augmentation varie de 10 a 25 pour 100. 

A vous, 
(Signe) J. G. MIGNEEON. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CITIL SERVICE 881 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Laflamme & Johnston, 
real estate brokers. 

Montreal, June 20, 1907. 
Mr. E. Decotret, 

Montreal. 

Dear Sir, — Relative to the proposed requisition about to be placed before a Royal 
Commission concerning an increase of salary. We as citizens concerned in the 
common welfare of the post office clerks strongly support such a measure, owing to the 
excessive increase of living expenses, such as rent, &c. 
Wishing you success in your endeavours. 

We remain, respectfully yours, 

LAFLAMME & JOHNSTON. 



Montreal, June 19, 1907. 
Postmaster, Montreal, Que. 

With reference to the increased cost of living, I beg to make the following state- 
ment : — 

When I came to Montreal six years ago, I paid $5 a month for a room at 520 
St. James street, and for board at Morton's, 17a Bleury street, I paid 15 cents a meal. 
At present I am paying $7 a month for the same room, and 20 cents a meal for the 
same board at Morton's. 

Yours truly, 

H. W. JOHNSTONE. 



Montreal, 19 juin 1907. 

Je, soussigne, habite la maison portant le n° 584 Saint-Denis. En 1904, je payaie 
$18 par mois, je paie maintenant $22 par mois pour la meme maison contenant 6 appar- 
tements. Mes depenses pour les chars en moyenne sont de $2.50 par mois. 

(Signe) CHS. LEFEBVRE. 

Memorandum, 
post office, ' e ' office. 

June 18, 1907 

Mr. Taylor, — Regarding my rent, I may say that I am living at 334 St. Antoine 
street, since four years. 

The first year I was paying $12, now, for the same house, I pay $16, an increase 
of $4 since four years. 

(Signed) D. E. HIJRTEAU. 

1269 St. James St. 

Montreal, June 20, 1907. 
To whom it may concern • 

I am a property owner in this city, renting both stores and dwellings, and can 
truthfully say, that within the past ten or twelve years my rents have increased from 
twenty-five to fifty per cent. 

(Signed) WM. McCONNELL. 

29a— 56 



882 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 



7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Montreal, June 29, 19U7. 
J. Taylor, Esq., 

City Delivery Branch, 

Post Office, Montreal. 

Dear Sir, — In reply to your letter of 28th instant, I beg to state that during 
the past ten years, I have increased the rentals of the dwellings under my control, at 
various times, amounting in all to probably twenty per cent. I am satisfied that this 
is the experience of all estate agents in this city, and takes in all classes of dwellings. 

Yours very truly, 

(Signed) W. E. COOPER. 



Montreal, September 16, 1907. 

Mr. Theophile Avill Giroux, of the Montreal post office staff, called, sworn and 
examined. 

By the Chair mafa : 

Q. You are the gentleman in the department who has given special attention to 
the pension system, I believe? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. The gist of the whole business is, I suppose, you consider that with any proper 
system of pension a stability would be given to the service? — A. Yes, sir, and an 
inducement would be offered to a good man to come here and take a position in the 
service. 

Q. And you would get qualified men ? — A. Men who are bjetter qualified. 

Q. That is to say, that if they were certain of a pension men would come into 
the service and would stay in it, and would be better qualified at the beginning of 
their career I — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And I suppose it would be economical, from your view, for the state that a 
man looking forward to a pension in his old age might accept a lower salary ? — A 
He might aecept a lesser salary if he has a pension in sight. 

Q. What is your position in this office ? — A. Chief of branch. 

Q. What is your branch? — A. The letter dispatch branch. 

Q. Have you been twenty-three years in the sjervice ? — A. Yes sir. 

Q. You entered the service in the same year as Mir. Barcelo ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Have you always been in that service ? — A. Yes sir. 

Q. I asked Mr. Barcelo the question and I will ask you — what is your opinion, 
do you not think a change of duty would be beneficial? — A. It would be to a cer- 
tain extent, but with regard to the different branches, the sorting of the papers and 
letters could not be well interchanged with otheir branches, and then the number of 
men required at certain hours of the day at the different branches of the work would 
prevent the possibility of giving the same number of hours to every man. The change 
might be made in some instances but it could not be done regularly. 

Q. That is to say in the event of promotion to another blranch of the service, 
the money order or saving's bank branch, would it not rather defeat the promotion 
of a man who knew nothing about the work in those branches, he having been con- 
fined to the work in the sorting departmjent ? — A. It certainly would be in that re- 
spect. 

Q. To carlry out the theory of giving promotions to people inside the service, 
thereby giving encouragement to the officials already in the service, would it not be 
better that their duties should be varied so that they may become acquainted with 
the work in the different branches ? — A. Theoretically the work should be varied 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 883 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

but the number of employees being so limited generally we cannot afford even to let 
a man go into another branch in order to learn to work in that branch. We havte 
to keep him at the work in which he is experienced. 

Q. Then it is once a letter carrier or once in the letter sorting department always 
there ? — A. He might go to the paper sortation. 

Q. But he would always be a sorter ? — A. Always a sorter. 

Q. Is there any gentleman here who looks after the sale of the stamps, who is 
in the selling branch I — A Xo sir, no one in the selling branch. 

Q. "Will you kindly have this memorial on the pension question translated and 
sent in so that it may form a part of the appendix of the report \ — A. I will do so 
with pleasure, do you want two copies '. 

Q. You had better send in both the English and the French translation? — A. Very 
well. I will do so. 

Witness retired. 



Montreal, September 11, 190". 
Alfred Jacques, Superintendent of Letter Carriers, called, sworn and examined. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. You are Superintendent of Letter Carriers at the Montreal City Post Office? 
— A. Yes sir. 

Q. Were you ever a letter carrier yourself '. — A. I was for ten years a letter carrier. 

Q. What was your district '. — A. I was in the west, the north, the east, all around 
the city. 

Q. Did you ever have a beat on St. James Street here in the city ( — A. Xo, this 
is the only place I did not work, the head office. 

Q. Who distributes the letters to the Bank of Montreal and the other banks around 
here in the centre of the city ' — A. The banks all have boxes. 

Q. Practically all the business establishments on St. James Street have boxes, I 
suppose? — A. Well no. on St. Jame? Street alone v,e have four carriers from St. Lam- 
berts Hill to McGill Street. 

(Memorial of the letter carriers employed at the Montreal City Post Office read.) 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. How is it that if a letter carrier is appointed a clerk he is reduced in salary? 
—A. The letter carriers go up to $700, but if they are appointed a clerk they have to 
go back and commence at $600 again. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. But they may go up to $1,000 as a clerk, they lose a step in the beginning if 
they accept appointment as clerk, with the hope of ultimate gain in going up to $1,000. 
— A. It is not very encouraging to a carrier to have to lose $100 in salary right away 
in order to become a clerk, and his chances to go up to $1,000 are very small. 

Q. You are now Superintendent of Letter Carriers? — A. Yes sir. 

Q. You regulate the beats, the districts, that the letter carriers take '. — A. I do. 

Q. Are the districts often changed 1 — A. Well, as a matter of fact I took charge of 
this branch on the 1st of January last and we have been going all around the beats. 
because I was then convinced by my own experience that they are too large: so we 
have been over them and found out what changes are necessary in order to put the 
beats on a proper footing. 

29a— 56 i 



884 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-Z EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. I presume that the arrangements you speak of will lead to a shortening of the 
beats, it is rather a lessening of the distances the men have to travel than a change in 
the beat. The letter carrier will be still in the same beat but he might only have a 
portion of the beat that he formerly covered? — A. Yes, a part of the beat only. You 
see we actually require a general revision of the beats. 

Q. Then this readjustment is going to be made I suppose? — A. Yes sir, if we get 
the extra men required. 

Q. The letter carrier looks forward to Christmas boxes does he not? — A. Yes, in 
some parts of the city naturally. 

Q. I suppose that in Griffintown the Christmas boxes will not be very large? — A. 
They will be very small. 

Q. But in Sherbrooke Street they would be worth quite a lot? — A. All in the 
West, and in the business parts of the city. 

Q. Has it ever been the case that a week, or a few weeks before Christmas the 
man delivering letters on a beat on Sherbrooke Street has been sent to Griffintown or 
vice versa ? — A. That has not been done since I am in charge, of course, I was not in 
charge at Christmas time, I only took charge in January. 

Q. But you have heard of such a thing? — A. I heard of such a thing — well it was 
not a week before Christmas, but it was around Christmas time men were changed ; in 
fact I might say I was myself changed, but it was about a month and a half before 
Christmas. 

Q. You were changed from a good district to a bad district? — A. From a pretty 
good district to a poor one. 

By Mr. Bazin: 
Q. Was it done intentionally ? — A. I could not say that. 

Q. Was it done as a punishment? — A. I never could find out the reason for this 
change. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Just done out of down right sheer cussedness? — A. I could not say but I have 
seen that done to some letter carriers — it is not part of their salary I know, but to some 
of them it means a hundred dollars, and I tell you it makes a man feel rather queer to 
be treated that way. 

Q. You have heard of this being done, but, of course, in your own jurisdiction it 
has not been done, you have not done it yourself? — A. Well no — I have not had an 
opportunity. 

Q. Well, looking at you, I presume you would not do such a thing as that? — A. 
No sir, I would not. 

Q. You have great sympathy with the letter carriers naturally? — A. I have. 

Q. You have been one yourself? — A. Yes I have been there long enough to know 
what it is. 

Q. For how long a period have these letter carriers who are doing clerks' work on 
the inside, and who are deprived of their uniforms, their street car tickets and their 
Christmas boxes, been kept at that work and still graded letter carriers? — A. As a 
matter of fact it seems that the Department is entirely against letter carriers being 
appointed clerks. That is the conclusion I have arrived at judging from what I can 
see, of course, I am not in the secrets of the Department. 

Q. These letter carriers are employed in the office to do clerk's work? — A. Yes. 

Q. And they have done it perhaps for many months? — A. For years, you have 
letter carriers on the inside work at the Montreal Post Office who have been engaged 
on that work for eighteen or twenty years. 

Q. And they have been deprived during all that period of the perquisites which 
letter carriers enjoy, uniform, street car fares and Christmas boxes? — A. Yes. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OS THE CIVIL SERVICE 885 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. Does it happen through dread of politics putting in inefficient junior clerks i 
— A. Well, really 1 do not know. 

Q. Weil, nave you an idea I You want a good man to sort letters on the inside 
do you not i — A. We want a good man certainly. 

Q. And if you applied to Ottawa you might have an inefficient man put there \ 
— A. Well, a carrier would be a better man and that is why the letter carriers are 
asking the privilege of being appointed clerks after five years' service. 

Q. What we want to get at is the idea of how it is that they are employed there 
for years and years doing this clerical work and still are graded as letter carriers, being 
deprived in the meanwhile of their privileges. Is it because the Post Office and the 
Department have a dread of the politicians? — A. Well, in one way I suppose so, 
really, because these carriers are doing the clerk's work. In one branch alone there 
are about twenty or twenty-three of them so employed and surely it would require 
several more men to do that work if they were outsiders. That sorting is work which 
it takes a long time to learn, and the proper way to learn it is to go around delivering 
letters throughout the city. 

Q. And the proper way is that when an efficient letter carrier can do the sorting 
he should be made a clerk? — A. That would be my view. 

Q. How many letter carriers are there you say doing this work twenty-three? — 
A. That is in one branch only. 

Q. Well how many are there altogether ? — A. There are about forty-five carriers 
inside doing clerk's or porter's work, but most of them are doing clerk's work. 

Q. Have you any letter carriers who are graded as labourers { — A. No, we haven't 
any. 

Q. You haven't any of that? — A. Not unless there are some inside that I do not 
know about. 

Q. Nobody who is employed in delivering letters on the street is graded as a 
labourer? — A. No 

Q. They have all passed an examination? — A. Well, we might call those men tem- 
porary that are a: pointed for the vacation time, there are nine of them. 

Q. Those letter carriers are doing night duty as well as day duty? — A. Some of 
them do night duty. 

Q. And in addition to being deprived of their uniforms, their street car fares 
and their Christmas boxes and in addition to losing whatever advantage there may 
be, in having to deliver letters within fixed hours during the day these letter carriers 
who are required to do sorting have to work at night also? — A. Some of them have to. 

Q. And the highest position that a letter carrier can get is $2.25 per day? — A. 
Yes. 

Q. Does he contribute to any retirement fund or anything of that kind? — A. Some 
of the old carriers contribute to the superannuation fund and those who have been 
appointed since 1902 contribute to the retirement fund. 

Q. Do the people who are now appointed contribute to the retirement fund ? — A. 
Yes, with interest at 4%. 

Witness retired. 



To the Honourable the Royal Commission appointed to inquire into matters pertain- 
ing to the Civil Service of Canada. 

On behalf of the Letter Carriers of the City of Montreal, allow us to call your 
kind attention to the following questions in which they are interested, namely: — 

INCREASE OF SALARY. 

As far as the increase of salary is concerned we think it would be useless for us 
to insist on the necessity of increasing the letter carriers salary, as we know that state- 



866 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

merits proving the increase in the cost of living within the last lew years, nave been 
placed before you in sucii a strong manner by the clerks in tnis office, that we feel 
sure you have no hesitation to admit it. 

But one point we want to insist upon is that the letter carriers consider that there 
should be no difference in pay between themselves and Third Class Clerks. In fact, 
they perform the sam^e duties, but the carrier with the greater responsibility. For in- 
stance, a clerk at the Registration Office, with proper accommodation, is safeguarded a 
great deal more than the carrier who has to liustle around the streets with a bag 
loaded with mail matter, and is greatly exposed to lose some articles or to commit 
some errors which are always counted against him. If a letter is misdelivered, though 
very often, it received faulty treatment in the hands of several clerks, the letter 
carrier is always sure to be blamed as it is almost impossible, in most of the cases, 
to find out who are the clerks at fault, etc. For these reasons, we submit that the letter 
carriers be placed on the same footing with regard to pay, as Third Class Clerks. 

PROMOTIONS. 

The letter carriers will also consider it in the interest of the Service if they were 
eligible to clerkship work after five years service on recommendation of the Postmaster. 
It would be a great inducement for any intelligent carrier to show such zeal as would 
make him worthy of this promotion. Actually some carriers are doing clerks work, 
but it is a very small promotion if you consider that they have to lose, in round figures, 
one hundred dollars a year, by being deprived of their uniform and free transportation 
on street cars; and if they are lucky enough to be appointed clerk they have to stand 
a further reduction in their salary of another hundred dollars a year. 

BONUS. 

Another point we have to draw your attention to is the bonus. 

Clause 7 of the Civil Service Act as amended May 15, 1902, reduced from 3 to 2 
weeks the annual leave of absence a letter carrier was entitled to, but in place of the 
third week, he was to receive a bonus of twenty dollars or ten extra days of vacation, 
to his choice, if his services were satisfactory; now, for the last year or so, letter 
carriers who were unfortunate enough to be absent through illness more than 20 days 
during the year, not only did not receive pay for the time they were absent but were, 
we think, unjustly deprived of the $20 bonus, though their services were reported to 
be satisfactory by the Postmaster. We will not venture any comments, the facts speak 
for themselves. 

SICK PAY. 

The sick pay is another important point to be looked into. The letter carrier is 
the only post office employee who does not get paid when absent through illness. 
Would it not seem quite natural to you that if there is an employee of the Post office 
Department who should be paid when absent through illness, it is the letter carrier? 
In fact is not the performance of his duties of a nature to expose him to all sorts of 
sickness more than any other employee? His arduous duties have to be performed 
during all kind of weather, and this every day in the week, and every week in the year. 

We know that the objection to grant sick pay to the letter carrier, is that there 
are too many abuses. Well, if such is the case and if there is no means of controlling 
absences of a day or two, it seems very easy to control a serious illness of several 
days ; in any case if this matter was left to the Postmaster of each city we think that 
he is in the best position to judge and that he would render justice to everybody, and 
sick pay would only be refused for good cause, and the deserving man would not have 
to suffer on account of a few unworthy letter carriers. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 887 

SESSIONAL TAPER No. 29a 

EIGHT-HOUR DAT. 

For several years past the letter carriers of the Dominion complained that they 
had to work over eight hours a day, sometimes nine, ten and more, to be able to com- 
plete their work. They have not yet seen the end of their trouble in this respect, but 
we think that the least that ought to be done, is to give extra pay for all overtime in 
the post office as it is done in the Customs and in any other business concern. 

In conclusion we might again call your kind attention to the statements placed 
before you with regard to the extraordinary increase of the cost of living, by the 
clerks of this office, and we feel confident that the conclusion of your careful investi- 
gation will be a strong recommendation of the increase of salary we respectfully beg 
to ask. 



Montreal, September 11, 1907. 

The Royal Commission on the Civil Service met this morning at 10.30 o'clock. 

Present: — Mr. J. M. Courtney, C.M.G., Chairman. 
Mr. Thomas Fyshe, Montreal, and 
Mr. P. J. Bazix, Quebec 

Mr. Jeremiah Coffey, of the Montreal post office staff, called, sworn and ex- 
amined. 

(Memorial of the Montreal post office staff in reference to night work read). 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Well, Mr. Coffey, how long have you been in the service? — A. Twenty-three 
years I think. 

Q. Have you been entirely on night duty all that time I — A. Xo, sir. 

Q. How long have you been on night work? — A. Seven months. 

Q. Are you employed on night work Sundays as well as other days { — A. Well, we 
are not employed on Saturday nights, but we are employed on Sunday nights. 

Q. That is for six nights a week you work at night, I observe you look washed out 
now? — A. I am on my holidays, I have been about ten days away from the office, you 
may judge what I must have looked like before I commenced my vacation. 

Q. How do you manage to be awake in the day time? — A. At present I am on my 
holidays. 

Q. I know, but you cannot change your habits of life in a few hours. How do 
you manage to keep awake all night after being accustomed to sleep at night ( — A. It 
is perhaps a little bit awkward at the beginning, but we become somewhat accustomed 
to it after a time. 

Q. Do you think that the system is a good one that requires a man to be for seven 
months straight on night duty with the prospect of being engaged in the same way for 
years' — A. It is not very easy to change off the work from night to day or from day 
to night, for the reason that the distribution is entirely different at night from what 
it is on the day shift. For instance Messrs. Donohue and Giroux are in charge of the 
staff from 3 to 11 o'clock and I am in charge there from 11 at night until 7 in the 
morning. Now the distribution of the Murray Bay route is entirely different accord- 
. ing to the hour at which the mails are despatched. It goes by way of Quebec at night, 
but in the morning it is sent by the Intercolonial Railway — I mention this just as an 
illustration, it is only one instance but it is practically the same in regard to every 



888 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

other route; there is a change in the distribution, and the morning stuff is sent by a 
different route from the afternoon, and the afternoon distribution is different from the 
night, so that to change from one man to another would not be conducive to a prompt 
and efficient handling of the mails. A man changing from one shift to another would 
for a short time anyway not be nearly as efficient as though he remained on his re- 
gular shift. 

Q. Does not all that tend to make a man perfunctory in the performance of his 
duties? — A. I do not know about that. 

Q. Would you not be more on your mettle if your duties were changed? — A. As 
a matter of fact, my position has been changed, I might say considerably, since I have 
been in the office. I have been in nearly all Departments. 

Q. In your case you have been shifted about a bit, but do you not think the 
system of keeping a man at night work for ypars at a time tends to get him into a 
groove ? — A. I think so. 

Q. Would it not be better all round, for the benefit of the state generally and for 
the benefit of the Post Office in particular, if the duties were changed occasionally? 
Variety, you know, is the spice of life? — A. There is no doubt of it, but to make it 
week about, as it is, say, in the railway, telegraph or other service, it would be practi- 
cally impossible on account, as I say, of the change there is in the various distributions ; 
and if you get a good man to take up other duties, it will take him a couple of days 
before he will do it all right. . 

Q. Granted all that, is it impossible to make the change? — A. I understand there 
is nothing impossible now. 

Q. But would not the benefits to the service from a change of the occupation of 
the different officials be greater than under the present system? The plea now is that 
you are more correct in your work because you are acquainted with the system and are 
going on doing the same work from day to day ? — A. Well, in my opinion, if the men 
were changed a little more you would have men more generally efficient. Of course, 
being continually tied in one place they haven't an opportunity of knowing very 
much more than that pertains to their particular duties unless they keep their eyes 
and ears open, but, a man can do that in any place and can learn a little more than 
what is simply his duty if he so desires. 

Q. That is to say the boy employed in the country branch bank knows much more 
than the boy who is appointed to the chief branch where he may be discount clerk, 
teller or anything else? — A. There is something in that. Of course, in all the banks 
the boy is generally sent around from one Department to another and has to assist 
others at the different duties before he is put to work entailing direct responsibility. 

Q. I was coming to that. Do you not think that in this bank system, one of 
the great systems of the country where the men are continually changed to the ad- 
vantage of the institution, do you not think that the same principle may be applied 
to the public service? — A. Well, in a slightly modified form, not in the same way ex- 
actly 

Q. The whole tendency in the public service is that once a man enters it he does 
the same duty until he goes out or gets to be an old man? — A. Yes, there is a good 
deal in that. 

Q. And the mainpoint that you are making here is that night work is detrimental 
to the health, and being detrimental to the health and being opposed to all social 
arrangements and to all matters of domestic enioyment there should be an increased' 
emolument attached to it? — A. That there shoidd be some consideration. 

Mr. Fyshe — I think that is very reasonable. 

The Chairman — Oh yes, the only thing is whether we cannot shift it around in- 
stead of having a man engaged at night work eight or ten years, whether it cannot be 
arranged to have it done turn and turn about by the staff. 

Witness retired. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CITIL SERVICE 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 



To the Civil Service Commission in session at Montreal: — 

The undersigned respectfully represent that in all trades and conditions of life it 
is considered that night work being more arduous should be paid for at a higher rate 
of wages than similar work in the day time. The rate of extra pay varies from one- 
quarter additional to double pay. 

Xo provision is made for night work in city post offices, although the principle is 
recognized in thje railway mail service of the post office where night mileage is double 
that earned in the day time. In the Customs and Inland Bevenue Departments night 
work is also recognized. 

We understand that when the Government of Canada took control of the Post 
Office Department, and arranged the scale of salaries there was scarcely any night 
work to be done, but with the ever increasing number of mails arriving at city post 
offices at all hours it is necessary to put on night duty more and more employees, in 
order to give the despatch the public expects and the Department desires to give. 

An employe at any business naturally objects to night work. In the post office 
the eyes, brain and hands must act instantly, and the strain is much greater than at 
the same work in day time. Not only is this so, but it is practically impossible to get 
the necessary rest during the day, to repair the wear on the system during night. All 
household arrangements of the night worker must be altered, and he cannot have his 
meals at the same hours as the rest of the family, nor make any social engagements, 
except at the expensje of "the necessary rest, and consequently health. 

In taking this matter into consideration we would request that an additional 
amount equal to at least 25 per cent be granted to those whose duties require their at- 
tendance between the hours of 7 p.m. and 7 a.m. in proportion to the time worked 
between those hours. 

Signed on behalf and with authority of night workers Montreal post office. 

(Signed) JEE. COFFEY. 



Montreal, June 22, 1907. 
Mr. J. Coffey, 

Committee on Night Duty, 

Montreal Post Office. 

I am pleased to give you below my opinion on the questions regarding night duty. 

Yours truly, 
(Signed) T. T. W. BURGESS, M.D. 

Comparison with day work generally. Generally speaking, night work is more 

General efiect on system. wearing than day work unless one has been 

accustomed to it from youth up, and is, 
•„_ . « , ,_. .. .. therefore, more wearing on the system, 

inflect of electric light on eyes. Has a tendency to be injurious 

Efiect of contiuuous work on Heart, .Brain, Continuous work, if carried to excess, has 

- S,erves - a tendency to be injurious to all these 

organs, but especially to the brain and nerv- 
ous system. 
Is it possible to get during day time in a 
large city the necessary rest and recrea- Scarcely possible, 

tion? 



890 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 



Le travail de nuit et le travail de jour 
compares. Effet general sur la constitu- 
tion. 



7-8 EDWARD VII.. A. 1908 
Montreal, Juin 29, 1907. 
Cjier monsieur, — Je suis heureux de vous dormer les renseignernents suivants 
sur la question du travail de nuit : — 

' En soi, le travail de nuit n J est pas plus 
dangereux que le travail de jour. Tout de- 
pend des conditions sanitaires dans lesquel- 
les il est fait. 

Les efiets ne sont pas appreciables si la 
lumiere ne depasse pas un certain degre 
d'intensite et si elle vient d'en liaut. 

Nul si ce travail s J acconiplit dans de bon- 
nes conditions et si le travailleur peut se 
reposer tres bien durant le jour. Si non, 
le systeine nerveux pourra souffrir ainsi, 
comme resultat, tout espeee de trouble or- 
ganique. 

Oui ; mais pas dans tous les cas, taut s'en 
faut. En somme, le travail de jour est 
bien preferable. 



Effet de la 
yeux. 



lumiere artificielle sur les 



Effet du travail continuel de nuit sur les 
yeux. 
Le eoeur, 
Le cerveau, 
Les nerfs. 



E. G. DAGENAIS. M.D. 



Est-il possible d'avoir le repos et la recrea- 
tion necessaire durant le jour dans une 
grande ville. 

Votre tout devoue. 

(Signed^) 
M. J. Coffey, 

Comite sur le travail de nuit, 

Hotel des postes. Montreal. Que. 

Montreal, June 22, 1907. 
Mr. J. Coffey, 

Committee on Night Duty, 

Montreal Post Office. 
I am pleased to give you below my opinion on the questions regarding night duty. 

Your3 truly, 

(Signed) J. A. J. GUEEIX. 



Comparison with day work generally. 
General effect on system. 

Effect of electric light on eyes. 

Effect of continuous work on 

Heart, 

Brain, 

Nerves. 

1> it possible to get during day time in a 
large city the necessary rest and recrea- 
tion? 

Cher monsieur, — Je suis heureux de 
sur la question du travail de nuit: — 

Le travail de nuit et le travail de jour 
compares. Effet general sur la constitution. 

Effet de la lumiere artificielle sur les 
yeux. 

Effet du travail continuel de nuit sur 
Le cceur, 
Le cerveau. 
Les nerfs. 

Est-il possible d'avoir le repos et la re- 
el eation necessaire durant le jour dans 
une grande ville? 

Votre tout 

M. J. Coffey, 

Comite sur le trnvail de nuit, 

Hotel des Postes, Montreal, Que. 



More fatiguing as man's vitality is at its 
height in the morning— injurious. 
Injurious. 

Depends on nature of work. 

Injurious. 

Injurious. 

No. 



Montreal, 21 juin, 1907. 
vous donner les renseignernents suivants 



Le travail du jour est preferable au tra- 
vail de nuit. II est plus naturel, plus hygie- 
nique. Le travail de nuit est plus deprimant 
sur le systeme nerveux. 

Le travail a la lumiere artificielle est plus 
fatiguant pour la vue que le meme travail 
a la lumiere du jour. 

L'aceommodation est moins facile. 

La conjonctive se congestionne plus faci- 
lement. 

Le systeme nerveux s'epuise plus facile- 
ment; le sommeil leparateur ne venant pas 
a son heure normal. 



devoue, 
(Signe) 



A. W. EOFCHEE. M.D. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 



891 



SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Mr. J. Coffey, 

( onimittee on Night Duty, 

Montreal Post Office. 



Montreal, June 22, 1907 



duty. 



I am pleased to give you below my opinion on the questions regarding night 

Yours truly, 

(Signed) H. B. CAEMIOHAEL. 



Comparison with day work generally. 
General effect on system. 

Effect of electric light on eyes. 



Effect of continuous work on 

Heart, 

Brain, 

Nerves. 



Is it possible to get during day time in a 
large city the necessary (a) rest and (b) re- 
creation ? 



-Night work being an unnatural method 
of employment necessarily tends to general 
deterioration of health. 

Electric light or any other artificial light 
is much harder on the eyes than ordinary 
daylight. 

The effect on the brain and nervous sys- 
tem generally depends largely on the inHi- 
vidual and on his habits as to night work, 
but speaking generally, night work would 
have a more deleterious effect on this sys- 
tem than day work. 

(a) Almost impossible except under un- 
usual circumstances. 

(b) Yes. 



Mr. J. Coffey, 

Committee on Night Duty, 

Montreal Post Office. 



Montreal, June 18, 1907. 



I am pleased to give you below my opinion on the question regarding night duty. 

Yours truly, 



Comparison with day work generally. Night work much more injurious. 

■General effect on system. 

Effect of electric light on eyes. 

Effect of continuous work on 

Heart, 

Brain, 

Nerves. 

Is it possible to get during day time in a 
large city the necessary rest and recrea- 
tion? 



Bad. 

All affected more or less seriously. 

« 

Depends on circumstances. 



Montreal, 



190: 



Mr. J. Coffey, 

Committee on Night Duty, 

Montreal Post Office. 

I am pleased to give you my opinion, on one question regarding night duty, for 
the others the opinion of a general physician is of more importance. 

Yours truly, 

(Signed) J. W. STERLING. 

Comparison with day work generally. 
General effect on system. 

Effect of electric light on eyes. 

Effect of continuous work on 

Heart, 

Brain, 

Nerve9. 

Is it possible to get during day time in a 
large city the necessary rest and recrea- 
tion ? 



If properly shaded in a good light. 



892 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 



Montreal, September 11, 1907. 

The Royal Commission on the Civil Service met this morning at 10.30 o'clock. 

Present — Mr. J. M. Courtney, C.M.G., Chairman. 
Mr. Thomas Fyshe, Montreal, and 
Mr. P. J. Bazin, Quebec. 

Mr. William Fleming, of the Porters Staff, the Montreal Post Office, called, sworn . 
and examined. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. How long have you been in the Department here? — A. One year. 

Q. Are you permanent? — A. No sir, temporary. 

Q. What is your occupation? — A. Porter sir. 

Q. How old are you may one ask? — A. Forty-nine. 

Q. What was your previous occupation? — A. Bank messenger. 

Q. In what bank were you employed ? — A. The Imperial. 

Q. Why did you leave the bank? — A. I resigned my position to take something 
better, to go into business for myself. 

Q. May one ask what business you went into? — A. I kept a store. 

Q. Then you thought it better to enter the public service? — A. No sir, I went back 
to my trade then. 

Q. Could you not get back to the service of the Imperial Bank? — A. I might have 
if I had tried, if they required me I might. 

Q. How did you get into the Post Office here ? Through whose recommenda- 
tion? — A. By application. 

Q. To whom? — A. To my member. 

Q. Who is your member? — A. Mr. Gervais. 

Q. And he backed your application, I suppose and you have come in temporary? 
— A. Certainly 

Q. You expect to be appointed permanently by and by I suppose? — A. That is 
what I am here this morning for. 

Q. You passed the examination? — A. Some time ago. 

Q. How long ago?— A. In 1878. 

Q. That was at the outset of your career? — A. Yes, sir, I was a young man then; 
I thought at that time it would do me no harm to get in. 

Q. You were long over age, of course, when you came in? — A. Certainly. 

Q. And you think that having passed that examination then, although you are 
long over age now you should be permanently appointed, is that it? — A. I think I 
should. 

Q. That is contrary to law you know? — A. Well, of course, there is always some- 
thing to the effect that if a man is competent to do the duties he has to perform, after 
a probation of six months he should be entitled to the credit of what he has done. 
There are several of us here who are competent to do the work and we think should 
not be debarred from being appointed permanently and having our two or three weeks 
holidays, if we do not obtain those holidays there is a certain amount of work on our 
shoulders on account of the other men who are permanent going on their holidays; 
we do that extra work and get no benefit from it. 

Q. How are you graded ? — A. I cannot answer that question. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 893 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. Are you graded as a labourer? — A. It is about tbe same tbing I presume. 

Q. But are you graded as a labourer? — A. I am doing labourer's work tbat is a 
certainty. 

Q. Wbat do tbey pay you? — A. $1.50 per day and I have a family to support on 
tbat. 

Q. Your contention is tbat you bave served sis months and having passed the 
examination thirty years ago you should be appointed permanently? — A. "Well, after 
passing an examination at any time, or on approbation of your superiors after serving 
on probation if you can do tbe work of a man twenty years of age at the age of 
forty-nine you should be entitled to tbat privilege, that is my idea. So long as you 
can stand a test at any time. 

Q. Are there many like you in the Post Office? — A. Yes sir, there are plenty, T 
should think there are ten or twelve. 

Q. Do you not think that for a man of your attainments and experience work on 
the outside would be very much better than remaining on the inside? — A. That is 
not the question tbat I am looking after at all. The only tbing I am looking after 
is tbat if I am capable of doing tbe work tbe Post Office requires of me then they 
should remunerate me for the work I do which they do not. 

Q. What do you consider proper remuneration? — A. We are saying that if we 
were appointed permanently and if we are capable we should start at $500 and run up 
to $900 or $1,000 per annum. 

Witness retired. 



Mr. Edmond Beauchamp, of the Montreal Post Office staff, called, sworn and ex- 
amined. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. You, I understand, are exactly in the same position as the last witness ? — A. 
No sir, I am working here since nine yeara. 

Q. Are you still on the temporary list ? — A. Yes sir, I have worked here for be- 
tween nine and ten years and we have some working here who have been employed 
some fifteen or twenty years in the building and we are still on the temporary list. 
We never have one hour of holidays and when we did get an increase we worked very 
hard to get it. 

Q. You have been |employed temporarily for nine years without holidays ? — A. 
Yes sir. 

Q. How old are you ? — A. I am forty-eight, and I have worked in everything, 
I have worked in the distribution and the other work and have done all the work I 
have been asked. I think that when appointments are to be made to the staff that we 
who have been employed here temporary for some years should be given the preference. 

(Memorial of the temporary employees at the Montreal Post Office read.) 

Witness retired. 



Mr. Thomas Callaghan, Montreal Po3t Office staff, called, sworn and examined. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. How often do you pay the employees in the post office here ? — A. Twice a 
month. 

Q. Do you draw the cheques? — A. Yes, sir, the gross cheque is drawn by the 
department, and is sient here payable to the order of tbe Postmaster and the Assistant 
Postmaster. It is deposited in the bank and we draw on that. 



894 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. Is that a cheques for one half month's pay? — A. No, sir. the cheque is for the 
whole month's pay. 

Q. How do arrange it, when is the cheque sent ? — A. About the 13th or 14th of 
the month. 

Q. Then why do you not pay them this cheque for the whole month, they would 
then get their pay for the whole month on the 15th or thereabouts ? — A. The depart- 
mental regulations are that employees be paid on the 15th and last day of each month. 

Q. I do not see why, because in the inside service the clerks are paid on the 15th 
of the month ? — A. Deduction of pay is made for all absence from whatever cause, 
except statutory leave. In July, 1907, an advance cheque covering one month's salary 
for all the employes of this office was received. At the end of each month a pay list 
is made and completed, showing the exact amount earned and paid. This pay list, 
duly receipted by each employee, is forwarded to the Accountant, Post Office Depart- 
ment, Ottawa, and on its return a cheque equivalent to the amount paid out is re- 
turned to this office, and is deposited in the bank to cover the following month's dis- 
bursements. 

Q. And before that they used to send a cheque at the end of the month ? — A. No 
sir, we used to make a pay roll about the 8th or 9th of the month, and they sent a 
cheque for the amount so estimated, and all amounts over estimated for were returned 
to the department, being deducted from the amounts estimated for on the following 
month's pay sheet. 

Witness retired. 



Montreal., S-eptember 11„ 1907. 

Mr. J. P. Chillas, Assistant Inspector, Post Office Department, Montreal division,, 
called, sworn, and examined. 

(Memorial of the inspectors' branch staff, Montreal post office, read.) 

By the Chairman: 

Q. The main point in this memorandum, as far as I can gather, is that you wish 
to be put on a parity with the assistant postmaster ? — A. Of the first-class post offices. 

Q. Are you inspecting all the time? — A. Very nearly, we have also to oversee the 
clerical work of the office. There are nearly 900 post offices in the Montreal division, 
about 300 of which are accounting offices which require to be inspected at least once 
a year. 

Q. That is in the division of Montreal? — A. In the division of Montreal; we have 
also the supervision of very nearly 700 mail services. 

Q. You not only supervise post offices, but you have to supervise the railway mail 
clerks? — A. No, the railway mail clerks belong to the railway mail service branch and 
come under the supervision of the railway mail service superintendent. 

Q. You have an office, where is your inspector's office? — A. Right above here in 
the post office block. 

Q. Are there only three inspectors ? — A. There are one inspector, two assistant 
inspectors and a staff of clerks for office work. 

Q. You have a large clerical staff? — A. Nine clerks, besides the inspector and two 
assistant inspectors. The clerical part of the work is heavy and requires a staff of 
several clerks. 

Q. To whom do you report ? — A. To the Postmaster General at Ottawa. 

Q. You do not report direct to the local postmaster? — A. Oh, no, we report to the 
Postmaster General at Ottawa. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OH THE CIVIL SERVICE 895 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. You are independent of the local post office? — A. Oh, yes. 

The hour of adjournment having arrived, Mr. Chillas' further examination was 
postponed. 

The memorial of the clerks in the inspector's office at the Montreal post office was 
read. 

The Commission adjourned. 



Montreal, Sept. 12, 1907. 
Mr. J. P. Chillas, Assistant Inspector, Montreal Post Office, recalled. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. You say that the duties of the assistant post office inspectors are to superintend 
the performance of the mail service, that is to say, you look after all contracts in your 
division? — A. We see that mail contractors properly fulfil their duties. 

Q. Do you ever find that you have given new contracts out for stage routes where 
the railways run? — A. New routes are sometimes organized along the railway line. 

Q. What I meant to say was, are you giving any contracts to stage routes where 
the railways run parallel? — A. No, not as a rule, I do not know of any such case in 
this division. 

Q. If a new railway has been opened, are the old stage routes continued ? — A. They 
are until the railway can take the service over, the stage and railway service may run 
parallel for a while, but eventually the stage service is superseded by the railway 
service. 

Q. Is it (ever a fact that both the railway and stage are paid for doing the same 
work at the same time? — A. Not in this division. 

Q. At once when a new railway is open, you advise the department, do you? — A. 
The Railway Mail Service branch does that. 

Q. But through your office?— A. No, direct to the department through the con- 
troller of railway mail service. 

Q. When the contract has been laid down, you are advised of it, and you see to 
the satisfactory performance of the provisions of the contract? — A. We see to the 
organization of side services connected with a railway and the supervision of such, 
services afterwards passes under the control of the railway mail service branch, but 
matters connected with the advertising of such services, payment of contractors and 
other details are of the province of the inspector's office. We have the exclusive super- 
vision of all stage routes. 

Q. And your duty is to induct new postmasters into their officers ? — A. Yes. 

Q. And teach them their duties ? — A. Yes. 

Q. And when any postmaster happens to be an unusually dull one you have to 
go down and instruct him ? — A. Yes. 

Q. You have also to see that the postmasters do their duty in rendering their 
accounts ? — A. Yes. 

Q. How then do you inspect the other offices ? — A. All the accounting offices, 
which number about 300 in this division, are supposed to be inspected at least once 
a year; there are a certain number of them that require to be inspected more fre- 
quently, where postmasters are somewhat negligent in rendering accounts or account- 
ing for monies taken in by them. 

Q. You say they are supposed to be inspected at least once a year ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Are they absolutely inspected at least once a year ? Is it any more than 
' suppose ' ? — A. As a rule they are inspected yearly, but there may be some cases 



896 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

where, through pressure of work, the inspection of some accounting offices could not 
he carried out. 

Q. In such a case as that when is the deficiency caught up ? How far has a post 
office gone without inspection — eighteen months ? — A. We are notified by the depart- 
ment when any office has not been inspected within twelve months, and are called upon 
to inspect such office as soon as possible. 

Q. All your returns of inspection are sent to the department at Ottawa ? — A. 
Yes. 

Q. Are they examined in the department at Ottawa ? — A. Yes. 

Q. And any failure to inspect a post office is brought to your attention ? — A. 
Yes. 

Q. Are you supposed then to make an inspection of that post office ? — A. Yes, 
as soon as possible. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 
Q. Your inspections are all recorded at Ottawa you say ? — A. Yes, 

By the Chairman : 

Q. You are supposed also to inquire into the complaints of misconduct or mis- 
conduct or mismanagement in respect to the performance of such duties ? That is to 
say misconduct or mismanagement of the postmaster ? — A. Misconduct might mean 
dishonesty, and in such case the work required of us is generally of a disagreeable 
nature, requires knowledge of the duties of the office, prudence and whatever action 
we may take must be based on experience acquired in the service. 

Q. Do you inspect the work of the railway mail clerks in addition to that of 
the post office staff? — A. No, except in cases of delayed, missent or missing matter. 

Q. Any miscarrying or loss of letters you may have to trace out ? — A. Yes, whether 
the cases have occurred in the railway mail service or city post offices. 

Q. Montreal comprises thirty-eight counties? — A. That is the Montreal postal 
division. 

Q. Which is the nearest division to the east ? — A. Quebec. There are but two 
postal divisions in the Province of Quebec, that of Quebec and Montreal. Ottawa is 
the nearest division to that of Montreal. 

Q. Is there no division of Sherbrooke ? — A. No. 

Q. Then the nearest on one side is Ottawa, and on the other side Quebec? — A. 
Yes. 

Q. Do your thirty-eight counties run down to Quebec? — A. Down to Three 
Rivers. 

Q. And does Quebec division come up to Three Rivers — A. Montreal division 
embraces Three Rivers and St. Maurice counties. 

Q. Take Portneuf, for instance? — A. That is in the Quebec division; then our 
division embraces all the eastern townships up to the border line. 

Q. Then, you say, in your position of assistant inspector you began at $1,200? — 
A. Yes. 

Q. And you ran up by yearly increments of $50 ? — A. During six years, and $100 
for the balance. 

Q. And the maximum is $1,800? — A. $1,800. 

Q. That is the full maximum of an assistant inspector? — A. Yes. 

Q. Are all inspectors paid the same in each division? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And the assistant post office inspectors? — A. Yes, all in the same scale of 
salary. 

Q. You do not go on a revenue basis? — A. No. 

Q. Then where the assistant post office inspector is at his maximum, say at 
Quebec, he would be paid the same as you ? — A. Yes. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 897 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. You think there is some reason that the assistant inspectors of the Montreal 
division should be paid as much as the assistant postmaster \ — A. Yes, the assistant 
postmaster on appointment -receive^ $2,000 a year. 

Q. Eunning up to how much? — A. That is the maximum and the minimum, and, 
of course, if his salary is to be raised we would like to be treated in no less liberal 
way. considering that our duties are as onerous and as responsible., if not even more 
so, than his. 

By Mr. Fyske : 

Q. But do you not require to be employees of some experience to reach 
maximum of capacity '. — A. Yes. we should. 

Q. You think it is easier for the assistant postmaster, experience is not ~o neces- 
sary in his case as hi yours? 

By the Chairman: 

Q. You were saying that there are 300 accounting offices and there other 

ordinary offices ? — A. Yes. 

Q. How often do you inspect those ordinary offices? — A. We have no regular 
period of inspection; we could not go over the whole territory in the year. Xon-ac- 
counting offices are inspected as occasion offers. 

Q. How many assistant inspectors are there? — A. Two, Mr. Joseph A. Zvladore 
and myself. 

Q. There are the inspector and two assistant inspectors to look after 900 post 
offices in thirty-eight counties? — A. Besides the several mail routes. 

Q. Yes. you call attention to the fact that up to some few years ago you had a 
per diem allowance when on yotir visits ? — A. Yes. 

Q. You are now simply paid travelling expenses: — A. 1 

By Mr. Fysl 
Q. And you lose by that? — A. We most certainly do. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. The change in effect has had this result that I presume human nature being 
the same the world over, you do not go out more than you are compelled to go? — A. 
It can hardly be otherwise. 

Q. You would not naturally go out and have the discomforts of travelling in 
these out of the way places if you were only paid what you are out of pocket and not 
quite that ? — A. It necessarily becomes a hardship for us to do so. The withdrawal of 
the per diem allowance, and the actual loss resulting to us therefrom, has certainly 
lessened the desire to travel. 

Q. That was perhaps a little perquisite in the per diem allowance that might have 
covered the additional outlay to which you were subjected? — A. Yes. it might have 
helped to cover extra expenses in connection with wear and tear of clothes or for extra 
wearing apparel required when travelling at certain seasons of the year, and to over- 
come, in some measure, the discomforts with which we meet throughout certain sec- 
tions of the country. 

Q. Then the effect, as I said before, is that it has discouraged any more travelling 
than you are absolutely called upon to do? — A. It certainly has had that tendency. 

Q. In these thirty-eight counties there are not many principal towns? You have 
to put up at all sorts of places when you are out of your district? — A. All sorts of 
places. 

Q. I suppose, with the exception of St. Hyacinthe, Three Pavers, and perhaps one 
or two other places, they are all country taverns ? — A. Country taverns with poor fare, 
poor lodgings and pretty high prices. 

29a— 57 



898 ROYAL COMMISSION 0A r THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-3 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. Do you travel much in winter? — A. As much as in any other season of the 
year. 

Q. Do you arrange your duties so as to travel less in winter than in summer? — 
A. This is a difficult matter to arrange, although we may make some effort to cover 
long distances, during the summer season, but we cannot foresee what will happen, and 
it frequently occurs that long journeys have to be taken during the most rigorous ^ 
seasons of the year, and when discomforts of all sorts have to be met with. 

Q. Of course, I do not know as much of the topography of your district as I do 
of Ottawa, but have you anything in the division of Montreal corresponding with the 
Upper Ottawa district, where they have to travel hundreds of miles on stages ? — A. We 
have some few routes which require some fifty, sixty or seventy miles of staging. 

Q. And you have to cover that in all kinds of weather? — A. In all seasons and 
in all kinds of weather. 

Q. Over bad roads and in everything else? — A. Generally over bad roads and 
sometimes in very bad weather. 

Q. How are the new post offices established? You have to induct the new post- 
master, what is the first step?— A. The first step towards the establishment of a post 
office is taken by the interested parties petitioning the Department for a post office. 

Q. Take some place or other up the north country how do you get at it that it is 
in need of a post office? Somebody makes application I suppose? — A. Yes, to the 
Department. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 
Q. Having so many signatures I suppose ? — A. Yes, and that application is referr- 
ed to the Inspector for report. Material for this report is obtained through a visit to 
the place, when the requirements for an office are looked into, cost of service estimated, 
after which report as to the value of the application is made to the Department. 
When authority for the establishment of a new post office is granted measures have to 
be taken to instal the new postmaster, instruct him as to the duties of his office and 
organize its service, that is conveyance of mails. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Are these applications made politically often? Does the Member apply? — A. 
This may occur sometimes. 

Q. Sometimes the Member finding that a small settlement of half a dozen families 
is away from the mail makes an application to have a post office? — A. Such cases may 
occur, but the Inspector's report is based on actual facts. 

Q. But begin with the beginning, with the application, are they not sometimes 
made for political ends? — A. I suppose in some cases they are. 

Q. Are they not often made for newspaper ends? The papers finding that they 
can circulate a great many copies in an out of the way place put pressure on to secure 
a service? — A. This has not been done to our knowledge. 

Q. You never heard of that? — A. No. 

Q. As a matter of fact, although occasionally political exigencies have led to the 
application for a post office; the post offices are created after examination by your 
office?— A. Yes. 

Q. And the application i< treated as a matter of merit rather than anvthing else? 
—A. Yes. 

Q. Is there a constant number of new creations of post offices? — How many post 
offices have there been created in your division in the last few years? — A. Within the 
last five years two hundred and fourteen. 

By Mr Fyshe : 
Q. That is not a very great number? — A. That is because the district comprised 
in Montreal postal division is an old one and throughout pretty well settled, and tho 
requirements for new post offices less than throughout new settled districts. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 899 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

The Post Office Inspector's Office is cue, which, we might say, embraces every 
branch of the postal service, and in order to properly fulfil the duties of an inspector 
or assistant inspector, one has to be familiar with the full details of the service so as 
to be in a position to issue proper instructions to those under his charge and jurisdic- 
tion. This knowledge of his duties is acquired by years of service in the department. 
Of the outside service of the Post Office Department, the Post Office Inspector's Office 
is perhaps the one which has the largest range of duty, and not the smallest part of 
responsibility. The Inspector's powers of control are large, his duties are heavy and 
responsible and the inspectors are officers to whose judgment the efficiency and smooth 
and economical working of the postal machine is largely due. The outsiders come to 
him with their troubles and complaints, he has to correct postmasters' errors, oversee 
their work and satisfy the public that their interests are being properly watched. 

By the Chairman: 
Q. That requires a certain amount of tact, you are between the public and the 
department? — A. Yes, sir, the close supervision of the work allotted to us may have 
the effect of saving the department money. That is why it is we think the salary of 
an inspector, or assistant inspector, should bear some proportion of the work and 
responsibility attached to our office. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. How many years does it take you to reach the maximum? — A. Well, it will 
be ten years. 

Q. And the maximum is what?— A. $1,800. rising from $1,200. 

Q. You get $1,200 on appointment, an increase of $50 a year during six years; 
then you get $100 a year during the balance, that is three years, so that in ten years 
from the date of your employment you may obtain the maximum ; then the super- 
annuation is based on the average salary for the last three years in the service. I 
have an idea that the superannuation should be based on the higher salary that a man 
should be paid? — A. That is what we think also. 

Q. And that rate would be the maximum of your office? — A. Yes. 

Q. I went on this principle in the bank in handling the pension system. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Practically in the public service you do go out at the highest salary you receive, 
only it is the average for the last three years. But never in my experience or in your 
experience did a man get up and then get a reduction in salary? — A. No. 

Q. What a banker does in his generosity to a decayed official does not happen in 
the public service. You are superannuated at your highest salary? — A. No, we do not 
know of any case where superannuation was on the basis of a reduced salary. I am 
sorry to say that Air. Bain, our post office inspector, is ill at home, otherwise he would 
have been here and he would have put the case before you with more ability and 
authority than I can do myself. 

Q. Your office is worked altogether by the inspector and assistant inspectors? — 
A. Yes, with a staff of clerks. 

Q. You were speaking of the inspector's salary? — A. It was $2,000 at one time, 
and the same salary was then paid the postmasters at Montreal and Toronto. At the 
present time a post office inspector is appointed at $2,000, with annual advances, rising 
to $2,600, whereas the postmasters at Montreal and Toronto get $4,000 each. 

Q. The inspectors get a maximum of $2,600? — A. Yes, and the assistant post- 
masters at Toronto and Montreal get. on appointment. $2,000. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. But they stay at that? — A. Yes. I do not know if it is right, that we should 
make any suggestion as to the figure of our -alary, or whether we would be allowed to 
make a suggestion as to the figure at which we think our salary should be fixed. 

29a— 57£ 



900 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. That is in your memo., I think?— A. Not the figure. Are we allowed to make 
any suggestion as to the figure at which our salary should be placed? 

Q. Yes ? — A. Well, of course, I am only speaking of rumour now, but I did hear 
that the inspectors had put in a demand for an increase to $3,500, as a maximum, 
which would be still $500 less than the postmaster at Montreal and Toronto, and I 
think that the duties of a post office inspector arc no less onerous or responsible than 
the duties of a postmaster. 

Q. They are much greater, because the duly of postmaster is apparently filled by 
amateurs who have never had any experience and who do not profess to follow it at all 
in many cases? — A. You cannot say that of the inspectors or assistants. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Of course, wo do not say that, we do not say anything, we are obtaining in- 
formation? — A. Then the rumour says that the assistant inspectors expect to get a 
maximum of $2,500, which we think would be only fair considering the salary that the 
postmasters and assistant postmasters get, and considering also the duties which we 
are called upon to fulfil. I would like to make a comparison between the duties and 
responsibilities that rest upon us now, and the duties and responsibilities which rested 
upon the Montreal postal division, say ten years ago. There were then two other 
divisions. Sherbrooke and Three Rivers, and the Montreal district consisted of eighteen 
counties, 3-iS post offices. 53 accounting offices and 273 mail routes. 

Q. What of the Three Rivers and Sherbrooke divisions?— A. They have been 

abolished. 

Q. I know that, but what had they then?— A. The Sherbrooke division comprised 
ten counties, embracing mostly the eastern townships and Three Rivers, twelve 
counties. Of these some fifteen counties have been added to the Montreal division. 

Q. Was it not a fact that they were abolished because practically the inspections 
were too small? — A. I believe that was the reason invoked for their abolishment. 

Q. I think that in working out your comparison you should show what Sher- 
brooke and Three Rivers had? — A. Well, no doubt that would be good information. 

Q. It is a very fair comparison to make between what the Montreal division 
was ten years ago and what the Montreal division is now; that is a very fair compari- 
son from your standpoint, but what you would also have to do in elaborating that is 
to show to what extent you have had an increase in the staff in order to cope with the 
enlarged amount of work? — A. I can give you that, ten years ago or so, that is, before 
the Sherbrooke and Three Rivers divisions were abolished, the staff of the Montreal 
inspector's office was composed of a personnel of nine, whereas at present it is com- 
posed of twelve. 

Q. Yes, you should also show the extent of the work performed at Sherbrooke 
and Three Rivers, which practically did not amount to much. I believe? — A. The 
Sherbrooke and Three Rivers divisions were not without their raison detre, I believe. 
However, the present Montreal postal division, which has taken in a considerable por- 
tion of the two divisions which were abolished, is now composed of 38 counties, 900 
post offices, 300 accounting offices, and about 700 mail routes, and the staff of the 
Montreal postal division is composed of one post office inspector and two assistant 
post office inspectors. 

Q. I thought there were three, Mr. J. A. Madore, Mr. D. Nelligan and yourself? 
—A. There were three, but one was superannuated. 

Q. And his place has not been filled? — A. No. There are two senior second- 
class, one third-class junior, three fourth-class, four temporaries and one messenger. 

Q. I am going to ask a question before you go any further. Do you propose — 
has application been made to appoint another assistant inspector in the place of Mr. 
Nelligan? — A. Not that I am aware of. 

Q. Do you think it is necessary or desirable to have another? — A. Well, I am not 
quite prepared to say so now. and unless a duly qualified assistant would be appointed 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 901 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

in Mr. Xelligan's place, we might not obtain the relief required. Mr. Xelligan's 
superannuation dates from Xoveniber 1 last. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 
Q. How old is he? 

By the Chairman : 
Q. He will be sixty on his next birthday I— A. Had some thirty-eight years of 
service. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 
Q. Was he incapacitated?— A. He was ill. 
Q. What superannuation did they give him {—A. He got $1,240, I think. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Why did he not get the full superannuation? — A. He got the average of the 
last three years' pay on thirty-five years' service, that ia, $1,240 instead of $1,260. 

Q. And you are not prepared to answer that question? — A. Well, we would like 
to have one year's experience and see how we can get along without a third assistant 
inspector. Then we might be in a better position to say to what extent another 
assistant inspector would be of assistance to us, and if we could get along without 
another one. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 
Q. Of course, if you did you would have a much stronger reason for get y v. 
increase of pay. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Why, in proportion to your small staff, have you four temporaries \ That is 
a very large proportion is it not ? — A. Yes ; they have been very recently appointed. 

Q. Are they efficient men? — A. Two of them are women. 

Q. Is it a fact that young men in this present day are not desirous of entering 
the public service '. — A. I think so ; and young men of good or fair education are what 
we require in this office. 

Q. But you cannot get the type you want ?— A. Xo; probably on account of the 
figure ox salary, and the fact of the superannuation having been withdrawn has les- 
sened the inducement of a good young man to enter the office. 

Q. Then another thing, I suppose that the utter lack of prospect deters young 
men of good ability from entering the service? — A. If the department does not re- 
serve the prizes which are to be found in the office for young men already in the ser- 
vice it can hardly be expected that those who are already there will take any interest 
in it, or will consider themselves anything else but temporary clerks awaiting some- 
thing better. 

Q. Yes, and they disappear? — A. Yes, they disappear. I am expressing the 
opinion that it would be far better if young men were obtained for the service, and 
after their being trained let them see that there is something ahead for them. 

Q. Then these four temporaries are entirely political, I suppose? — A. Perhaps so. 
At any rate women in our office are not very desirable unless as duly qualified steno- 
graphers and typewriters, and as a matter of course women in any office are generally 
there only en passant. 

We heard that there was something thought of re-establishing the superannuation 
-ystem for something better, and as far as we are concerned, we would be strongly in 
favour of what they call a provident fund such as they have in banks. 

Another point which we consider of importance to us is that in the event of the 
maximum of salary being increased, old employees such as ourselves, or say employees 



902 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

who have put in twenty or thirty years of service, be made to enjoy, at once, the maxi- 
mum figure of salary, instead of having to attain it by yearly increments, otherwise 
if an employee of some thirty-five or thirty-eight years of service has to wait ten years 
or so to attain the maximum figure of salary, his chances to reach it, or to even enjoy 
the benefit of it are rather slim. 

I desire also to call attention to the question of a per diem allowance, and to 
point out that in the case where this allowance was paid it most frequently was paid 
for time put in after the regular official day, that is, it was a matter of very frequent 
occurrence that after the full official day had been put in in the office we had to leave 
the city by some late afternoon train in order to reach our point of visit, and it was 
not a matter of rare occurrence that we also had to put in extra work late in the 
evening or even late at night in order to be able to return to the city and to our offi- 
cial duties by an early morning train. This is the condition of things which actually 
exist?, and which constitutes long and arduous extra work and for which we receive 
nothing; in fact which, as a rule entails upon us, besides the extra work, material loss. 

Witness retired. 



Post Office Inspector's Office, 

Montreal, September 11, 1907. 

To the Honourable the Royal Commissioners appointed to inquire into matters per- 
taining to the Civil Service of Canada. 

Gentlemen, — The undersigned, assistant post office inspectors of the Montreal 
postal division, desire to respectfully lay before you the following facts: — 

The duties of post office inspectors and assistant post office inspectors as laid out 
in the Postal Act are as follows: — 

(a) Superintend the performance of the mail service, taking care that, as far as 
the state of the roads and other circumstances permit, the stipulations of all contracts 
for the conveyance of the mail are strictly complied with by the contractors. 

(&) Instruct new postmasters in their duties. 

(c) Keep the postmasters to their duty in rendering their accounts and paying 
over their balances. 

(d) Inspect every post office, from time to time, to see that it is properly kept, 
and that the postmasters and their assistants perfectly understand their instructions 
and perform their duty well in every particular. 

(e) Inquire into complaints or suspected cases of misconduct or mismanagement 
in respect of such duty, and also into complaints of the miscarriage or loss of letters 
or other mail matter; and, 

(f) Generally do all and whatever he is, from time to time, instructed or re- 
quired by the Postmaster General to do for the service of the Post Office Department. 

The above shows that the duties assigned to a post office inspector and assistant 
inspector, are identical with the exception, however, that somewhat more responsibility 
rests upon the post office inspector on account of his position as head of the office. 

That the duties of an assistant post office inspector are of a very general nature, 
covering mostly all points connected with the postal service. 

That the supervision of the work assigned to him requires full knowledge of the 
duties as laid down in the Post Office Act, which knowledge is acquired by long years 
of service. 

That the fulfilment of his duties is at times of a very arduous nature and that the 
almost constant travelling over the territory assigned to him presents, at times, con- 
siderable fatigue, discomfort, nothing said of tbe danger to life and limb. 

We think it well to call your attention to the present composition of the Montreal 
postal division. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE S03 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

It comprises thirty-eight counties, about nine hundred post offices, of which there 
are very nearly three hundred accounting offices ; mail routes in the division number 
about seven hundred. 

This will give you an idea of the constant supervision required of the Montreal 
post office inspector and of his two assistants, in order to see that the duties assigned 
to them and that the full work of the postal division under their care are properly 
carried out and attended to. 

The present maximum salary attached to the position of an assistant post office 
inspector is that of $1,800 a year, the minimum, $1,200. The maximum salary is 
reached by yearly increments of $50 or $100 according to the years of service. 

We beg, most respectfully, to make a comparison between salary attached to the 
position of a city assistant postmaster, and that of an assistant post office inspector, 
and we shall take for the purpose that of the Montreal post office, and of the Montreal 
postal division. 

It seems to us that the duties attached to the position of the assistant postmaster 
of Montreal, are no more numerous, do not carry any more responsibility and we 
venture to say are often times less arduous and less difficult of application than those 
attaching to the position of assistant post office inspector of the Montreal postal divi- 
sion, nevertheless the salary of the assistant postmaster of Montreal, is fixed at $2,000 
a year, on appointment, whilst that of assistant post office inspector is fixed at $1,200 
on appointment with a maximum of $1,800 obtainable by yearly increases of $50 or 
$100. 

We are led to believe that the salary of the assistant postmaster of Montreal, and 
of other cities of importance, is to be raised to a higher figure and if it should occur 
to you that the office of assistant post office inspector of Montreal, is of equal import- 
ance to that of assistant postmaster of Montreal, and carries with it as great a re- 
sponsibility, or requires of the incumbent as much labour, then we hope that it may 
please you to recommend that, on the score of salary, we be treated with equal liber- 
ality. 

We also respectfully beg to submit that in the event of an increase of salary being 
attached to our division, the maximum figure be granted at once to such of those as 
have served a large number of years in the service, and who, on account of the many 
years put in, cannot very well afford to wait the attainment of the maximum figure by 
means of the yearly increases. 

Some years ago a per diem allowance of $3.50 was granted to post office inspectors 
and assistant post office inspectors when travelling on duty, for the purpose of meet- 
ing expenses of board and lodging. This per diem allowance has been taken from us 
and we are now paid, when travelling on duty, simply actual and reasonable expenses, 
which have to be itemized in accounts rendered to the department. It is easy to under- 
stand that the existing system of paying actual expenses must, necessarily, work loss 
to us as there are many items of absolute necessity which cannot be covered or in- 
cluded in the accounts rendered and we think that if the former per diem allowance 
could be reverted to it would only be fair and just to those who are compelled to 
travel, on duty, to leave the comforts of a home and to meet' with the very frequent 
discomforts of the small country inns, besides wear and tear to clothes and danger 
to health. 

It seems a hardship to us to find that, on our return from an official trip, we 
have had to draw from our income in order to cover full expenses of the trip, and 
although we know that this is not expected by the department, nevertheless it is one 
of those things which exists and cannot very well be avoided. 

The undersigned are two long service men, one having very nearly completed 
thirty-seven years of service, the other thirty-three, and we feel that we are justified 
in expressing some opinion as to the system of superannuation to which we have con- 
tributed for so many years. In this connection we quite agree with the recommenda- 
tions contained in the memorial of the Civil Service Association, presented to you, 



904 ROYAL COMMISSION OX TEE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

and which suggests the establishment of a provident fund, applicable to those de- 
pendent upon us and whom we leave behind. 

The whole respectfully submitted. • 

(Signed) J. P. CHILLAS, 

Asst. P. 0. Inspector. 

-J. A. MA POKE, 

Asst. P 0. Inspector. 



Montreal, September 12, 1907. 

Mr. Ulderic Clermoxt, the Inspectors' Staff, Montreal Division, Post Office De- 
partment, sworn and examined : — 

By the Chairman: 

Q. You and your colleagues bare sent in this memorial I — A. Yes. 

(Memorial from the clerks in the inspectors' office, Montreal division, read.) 

Q. You consider that having to attain a thorough knowledge of French and 
English, and also a full knowledge of the post office administration, you should not be 
kept in the same standard as clerks who perform routine work which requires less 
education, and that a special class should be established for clerks in the post office 
inspectors' offices. What would you call the special class? — A. Under the law the 
clerks in the postal division inspectors' offices are on the same basis as the clerks in 
the post office, where routine work is done, such as the sorting of letters in bags. The 
clerks in the post office inspectors' branch are mostly engaged in writing correspondence, 
both in English and French, and to all these foreigners, and we have a great deal 
of difficulty in doing that work because we have to deal with all kinds of foreigners, 
Austrians, Italians, Finlanders, and other nationalities. Our work is of an entirely 
different description to that of a clerk in the post office. 

Q. The Civil Service Act, I do not know what is in your Post Office Act, when 
talking of the inspectors' branches, only deals with the post office inspector and assist- 
ant inspector, it does not deal anyway with the clerks employed by them? — A. I saw 
yesterday, I think it is there in the book, that the clerks in the inspectors' office are on 
the same footing as the clerks in the post office. 

Q. Yes, exactly, I was going to say there is no distinction. Your contention is 
that they should be distinct from the ordinary clerks I — A. Yes, on account of the 
different nature of the work they are called upon to perform. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Do you think tljey should not be on the same footing as post office clerks I — 
A. I think they should not. 

Q. You think the work is more responsible? — A. Yes. and more complicated. Of 
course, their work is such that they have to learn it thoroughly, but all they have to do 
is sort letters correctly. 

Q. But a man doing the Savings' Bank or money order work, do you think he is 
on the same basis as the man who is sorting letters? — A. No, sir: that is work which 
differs from the general work of sorting downstairs — oh, yes, they are on the same 
footing as the post clerks. 

Q. Do you consider your work is of more importance than that of the clerks 
employed downstairs doing savings' bank and money order business ?— A. The savings' 
bank, I suppose, will deal with that themselves, I am only talking for our own office. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE S05 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. You express no opinion about those two branches, but with regard to the 
ordinary sorting branch you think you should be in a better position? — A. Yes, I think 
so on account of having more important duties to perform. 

Q. You ask ' that the clerks in the Montreal division be placed on the same level 
as those in other divisions,' where is the difference, please? — A. The difference is that 
in the other divisions they have nearly all first-class and second-class clerks, I can 
say that in a small division like down below in New Brunswick they have first- 
clerks and senior second-class clerks, which we have not in Montreal. There has not 
been a first-class clerk in Montreal for years, if there ever has been one. 

Q. Why is that? — A. I do not know, the vacancy has never been filled, I suppose. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Your service only commenced about two years ago? — A. You will not see my 
name with the post office inspectors' division, although I am twenty-five years in the 
service. 

Q. Then you consider that you should be like the divisions in Toronto and Ottawa, 
that there should be first-class clerks in this division I — A. Yes, because there are no 
senior second-class and first-class clerks here in Montreal. 

Q. Do you consider that is by design or accident that there has been no first-class 
clerks here ? — A. I do not know. 

Q. It has never been brought to the notice of the department, has it? — A. I sup- 
pose it has, I think we should get all that is coming to us; the work that the first- 
and senior second-class clerks perform in other divisions we do here in Montreal. 
Take me, for instance, I am a junior second-class clerk, and I get $900, with over 
twenty-five years' service. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. You are graded lower and yet do the same work? — A. We must, because we are 
clerks. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. In Quebec there are no first-class clerks I — A. Xo, but you will see there arc- 
two senior second-class clerks, with $1,200 salary. 

Q. That is your contention, that the Montreal division should not be graded .ess 
than the other divisions? — A. Yes, that the classes should be represented in the Mont- 
real division the same as in the others. 

Q. You complain of the old scale of salary and say that the conditions of life 

have so changed during the past ten years ? — A. I mean the present scale of 

salary. 

Q. You say that the present scale of salarv is now inadequate to meet your wants f 
—A. Yes. 

Q. Then you go on ' that a pension free of charge be granted after twenty years' 
service whether a clerk is in good health or not.'" What do you mean by that ? — A. I 
tell you, we are two that have signed this petition. Mr. A. Madore and myself, as far 
as the pension fund is concerned I am on the pension fund yet, but Mr. Madore is not 
on it, and he insisted on my putting that, but it is really that we desire to have the 
pension fund again and as to the twenty years, of course. I told him that twenty years 
was rather a short service; I think so, but I think that thirty-five years is rather long. 
Now, after thirty-five years, take a man that gets into a department at twenty-five or 
thirty years of age, if he has served thirty-five years he is almost gone. 

Q. Then you take it for granted that if there is a vacant position there caused by 
the superannuation of Mr- Neligan? — A. He was assistant inspector. 

Q. Then you consider that that position of assistant inspector should be filled up 
by the promotion of a clerk in the department? — A. Yes, sir, all things being equal. 



906 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. There are three assistant inspectors in Montreal, there are only two assistant 
inspectors at another place, possibly there might not be a third assistant inspector 
appointed again. Do you think that once an assistant inspector is appointed that what- 
ever changes in the office may occur there should always be the same number? — A. No, 
I do not say that. 

Q. There were three assistant inspectors and now there are two, as in the other 
division; possibly, I do not know, but possibly it may not be desirable to fill up that 
vacancy which has occurred by Mr. Neligan's superannuation. I ask whether you con- 
sider that once having, for some reason or other, three assistant inspectors appointed 
for any division that there should always be a third inspector ? — A. Well, as Mr. Chillas 
has said he is not prepared to answer that just now; I am not prepared to answer that 
question. 

Q. Might it not be possible that because Montreal having taken in the other 
divisions of Sherbrooke and Three Rivers that explains why there were three assistant 
inspectors? — A. Well, I think the fact of there being three assistant inspectors here 
is explained by the abolition of the Three Rivers division; Mr. Chillas was there, and 
there were two here, Mr. Neligan and Mr. Madore, and they brought Mr. Chillas here 
when the division was abolished. That is how there came to be three inspectors here. 

Witness retired. 



Montreal, September 11, 1907. 

Mr. Ulderic Clermont ' and Mr. Alexandre Madore, clerks in the Montreal Post 
Office, Inspector's Office, respectfully beg to submit the following facts before the 
Royal Commission: — 

1. That the duties performed by clerks employed in post office inspectors' offices 
require a thorough knowledge of both the French and English languages and also a 
thorough knowledge of the post office administration and regulations; consequently 
we think that we should not be kept on the same standing as clerks performing routine 
work or duties requiring less education; and a special class should be established for 
clerks in post office inspectors' offices. 

2. That clerks in the Montreal division be placed on the same level as clerks in 
other postal divisions, performing the same duties. The Montreal division, although 
the most important one in Canada, consists only of one inspector, two assistant inspec- 
tors, two second class junior, one third class junior, two fourth class and five temporary 
clerks. You will notice that we have no first class nor second class senior clerks; and 
the same duties performed by the first and second class clerks in other divisions are 
performed by us here. 

3. That the conditions of life, especially in Montreal, are so completely changed, 
that the old scale of salary is now inadequate to meet our wants. 

4. That a pension, free of charge, be granted after twenty years of service in 
the Post Office Department, whether a clerk is in good health or not; and that such 
law be retroactive. 

5. That for the good administration of the Post Office Department, the position 
of assistant post office inspector be filled by promoting a clerk in the office of the 
division where such position is vacant. 

We are, gentlemen. 

Yours very respectfully. 

(Signed) ULDERIC CLERMONT, 
A. MADORE. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 907 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 



Thursday, September 12, 1907. 

Mr. Joseph Lallier, president of the Railway Mail Clerks Association for the 
Montreal division, called, sworn and examined. 
Memorial of Railway Mail Clerks read. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Is that another memorial you have there, Mr. Lallier? — A. This is a memorial 
that has been prepared by the committee. 

(Memorial read.) 

Q. Mr. Lallier, when a railway mail clerk is appointed it is at $480 a year? — A. 
$100 now. 

Q. That is not a very great difference. What does he get after two years' service 
now? — A- After two years' service? 

Q. Yes' — -A. If he passes the examination he gets $50 increase after the first year. 
After two years, $550. 

Q. Then this old scheme of $480 and $520 is out of date ?— A. Yes, that was be- 
fore the new regulation. 

Q. Are you divided into two classes? — A. There are no classes at all. 

Q. Then you begin at $400 now ?— A. $400. 

Q. Then you have what is called a case examination? — A. Yes, case examination. 

Q. That is every twelve months? — A. Yes. 

Q. Then you have to pass a time test, to show how many letters you can sort in 
a given time? — A. It is not exactly with regard to time, it is with regard to the loca- 
tion of different places. 

Q. It is a geographical test and a time test also? — A. Yes. 

Q. You have to distribute in the case quickly? — A. Yes, but the time is not so 
important as accuracy, the time is mentioned in his report. 

Q. Who examines you yearly in this ? — A. The superintendent. 

Q. The superintendent examines the railway mail clerks every year? — A. Yes, he 
is supposed to do so, but sometimes he is replaced by others. 

Q. He is the man who is responsible for the examination? — A. Yes. 

Q. After you have passed this first examination, what happens then, do you get 
an increase of salary if you pass successfully? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How much? — A. $50 a year increase. 

Q. If you do not pass the examination, you get no increase? — A. Yes, and if we 
pass less than 75 per cent we run the risk of being decreased. 

Q. Then the second examination, what happens if you pass that do you get an- 
other increase ?— A. Yes, another $50. 

Q. That is if you pass? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How many yearly examinations are there? Supposing you served thirty-five 
years, you would have to pass thirty-five examinations? — A. Yes, we have to pass the 
examinations even after we have reached the maximum, until we are sixty years of 
age. 

Q. How many railway mail clerks are there in this division? — A. About sixty, I 
believe. 

Q. Do you shift about on the different routes, or are you always on the same 
route? — A. There are some railway mail clerks who are always on the same route and 
oth r ones are changed occasionally. 

Q. Wh?t is your route? — A. From Montreal to Island Pond. 

Q. That is down on the border? — A. Yes. 

Q. How i; any years have you been on that route? — A. Seven years. 



908 ROYAL COMMISSION ON TEE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. Would it not be better for the public service if you were shifted about ( — A. I 
do not think so. 

Q. Does it not become perfunctory when you are running regularly on the one 
route, can you not do the work sometimes almost mechanically? — A. Oh, no, we have 
to be particular to perform our duties carefully. 

Q. In passing over this route for seven years, have you noticed that there are any 
places where stages have mail contracts where there are railways running also I — A. 
Stages, oh, yes. 

Q. Do you know of any places where stages continue to be paid for carrying the 
mail where lines of railway are in existence? — A. Not to my knowledge. 

Q. Have you been in any accidents? — A. No, sir. 

Q. But you always run the risk of accidents in the train? — A. Every day. 

Q. What are your hours, what time do you leave here? — A. 4.15 and I have to get 
down to the car at 2.30 or 3 in order to perform my work. 

Q. When do you leave Island Pond to come back? — A. At 1 o'clock a.m. in the 
winter and 2 o'clock a.m. in the summer. 

Q. You are off duty now then? — A. I came in this morning. 

Q. And you have not been to bed yet? — A. No, sir. 

Q. You have been on this route for seven years, and you always leave in the 
afternoon and come back in the morning? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You turn night into day? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Would it not be desirable to have a change in the routes so that the night 
clerks might become day clerks? — A. There are two trains on that route. 

Q. Could not you shift around with the other clerk? — A. The other clerks live at 
the other end, while we live at this end. 

Q. Do you get any special allowance for night work? — A. We get what we call 
4 night mileage. 

Q. That is the inducement to take up night work? — A. Yes. 

Q. What is the day mileage? — A. One-half cent per mile. 

Q. What is the night mileage? — A. One cent per mile. 

Q. What is the mileage between this city and Island Pond and return? — A. $2.50 
per trip. 

Q. Then in addition to your salary you get $2.50 per day? — A. Not $2.50 per day, 
but per trip. 

Q. But on all the trips the clerk does? — A. Yes. 

Q. Do you go on Sundays? — A. We come back hero on Sundays. 

Q. Then you are working seven days a week practically? — A. No, six days a week. 

Q. Your mileage is about $7.50 per week? — A. Yes. 

Q. That is to say, you get something over $30 per month in addition to your pay? 
— A. That is $30 per month, but that i3 big mileage in comparison with the others, 
that is about the biggest. 

Q. But all mileages are not to the same amount? — A. Oh, no; there are some clerks 
make $90 a year in mileage, and they have to spend twice that in their expenses. 

Q. Where i3 your home? — A. In Montreal. 

Q. You have to pay for lunch and dinner outside of Montreal? — A. Yes. 

Q. And the mileage is supposed to be an indemnity to cover that? — A. Yes, the 
mileage is to replace the old night allowance of years ago, and it merely is to pay 
expenses. 

Q. In doing this work on the railway train, day in and day out, you are on your 
feet all the time? — A. Yes. 

Q. Does not that to some extent affect the nerves? — A. It does gradually. 

Q. Many officers of the railway mail service have had to be put on the retirement 
fund long before they have arrived at the usual age? — A. Yes, many; it causes kidney 
disease in some, and others are made sick in different ways. 

Q. Standing on your feet all these hours you get liable to diseases of the nerves 
and other diseases? — A. Certainly we feel the effects ailer every Inp sometimes. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 909 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. As a rule the railway mail clerks have to be retired from the public service 
at an earlier age than the other officers ? — A. Sure. 

Q. If his health gets undermined ?— A. Yes, a man that has been thirty years in 
the service is practically a physical ruin. 

Q. How many routes are there running out from Montreal? You h 
Pond route, do you know how many routes there are?— A. No, I could not say. Well, 
there is the route from Montreal to Toronto, Montreal to Waterloo, Montreal to 
Island Pond, Nicolet to Montreal, Montreal to St. John, Montreal to Ottawa and 
Fort William, Montreal and Ottawa, Montreal and Dundee, Montreal and Levis, Mon- 
treal and Quebec — these are 17 routes in all out of Montreal. 

Q. The staff in this district is under Superintendent Briegel?— A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And there is an office staff to get your reports, of about four or five clerics? 
— A. Yes, five. 

Q. Then you have what you call train porters? — A. Yes. 

Q. What are these? — A. They are supposed to handle the bags. They are only 
on one route from Montreal to Toronto. 

Q. They come down with the bags to the trains, I suppose? — A. Oh, no; they lift 
and handle the bags on the trains. 

Q. That being a heavy route with many bags, you are obliged to have a porter 
help you on the trains? — A. Yes. 

Q. There are only two train porters, are there? — A. Yes. 

Q. What is a 'Mail Transfer Agent'? — A. He is a man employed at a station 
to look after the arrival of the trains and to look after the despatch of the mails. 

Q. He is the man who takes the bags from you, puts them in the wagon and takes 
them to the post office? — A. He doesn't take them himself to the post office. 
Q. He takes them from the train to the wagon? — A. Yes. 
Q. And he is what you call a mail transfer agent? — A. Yes. 
Q. Is the staff on this division large enough to do the work? — A. I think so. 
Q. Is there any difficulty when vacancies occur through men breaking down in 
health in getting men to replace them? — A. Not that I know of. 

Q. That would seem as if people were content to come in at the salaries paid? — 
A. There are always some who are ready to work for nothing. 

Q. For the honour and glory of the thing? — A. Some have the idea that when they 
get into this service they are getting into a position with nothing to do. We have had 
examples of clerks coming into the service thinking that all they have to do was to 
jump into the car and throw the bags off at the different stations, but when they found 
they had to work making up the bags they left. 

Q. A boy beginning in the railway service begins at $500 a year. What does the 
average boy get for his mileage? — A. $10 or $15 per month, and he has to spend $25 
or $30 sometimes because he has to go around to odd places. 

Q. A boy entering the service — you get them at the age of nineteen? — A. 
Eighteen. 

Q. A boy now entering the service gets $400 for the first six months and $20 to $50 
mileage? — A. Not in six months, he gets some mileage but not as much as that; he 
gets as much mileage as $10 or $15 per month. 

Q. That is $120? — A. But he has to pay out his expenses. I want to call atten- 
tion to the fact that one man has to spend $1.50 in expenses, and has 84 cents in 
mileage. 

Q. A boy gets $400 a year to begin with on appointment apart from his mileage, 
whatever that may be? — A. Yes. 

Q. Then after six months he gets $500 a year and his mileage; he would still be 
a boy about nineteen about that time ?— A.- They do not all get in at nineteen or 
twenty. 

Q. Is there any age limit? — A. I think the average of those who come into the 
service is twenty-five or thirty years. 



910 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CITIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. Then they must have had some experience outside before they came in. They 
have been at other work, I presume? — A. Oh, likely they have been 

Q. But they have given up their other work to enter the railway mail service? — 
A. Most likely. 

Q. Whatever his age is, after six months a railway mail clerk gets $500 a year 
and his mileage? — A. Yes, if he passes his examination. 

Q. Of course he has to pass his examination. I find that they have entered at all 
ages, at twenty and so on? — A. I entered at twenty myself. 

Q. You entered at twenty yourself. I do not suppose it happens now, but do you 
know that at one time the rates that were paid to the railway mail clerks were such 
that it was frequently a temptation to them to spend a great deal more money and to 
live extravagantly? — A. Railway mail clerks live extravagant? 

Q. Yes, not now, but about fifteen years ago there were two or three railway mail 
Vkrks in the Ottawa division who led rather riotous lives and had to go to Kingston 
penitentiary? — A. For stealing money, I suppose; they could not live riotously out of 
their salary. 

Q. I do not say it could be done now, but I say that ten years ago it was done. 
Col. White was asked in 1892 the question, ' has it not happened that in many in- 
stances railway mail clerks have gone to punishment ? ' and he said, ' I am sorry to say 
a good many of them have.' Has nothing of that kind occurred down in this divi- 
sion? — A. Yes; it was probably because they did not have enough pay that they were 
led to steal. 

Q. Col. White was then asked, ' Is not that in great measure owing to the great 
pay they have received on appointment?' and he replied, 'I do not think so, because 
our experience is that those who have been in the service a long time have been in 
trouble as much as the young men.' Have there been any defalcations recently in this 
division? — A. Yes, there has been one man in this division who went to the peniten- 
tiary. 

Q. How long ago is that? — A. Seven years. 

Q. What did he do, steal letters? — A. He was supposed to steal them. 

Q. How was he discovered? — A. By means of marked bank notes. 

Q. I do not wish to reflect on the body to which you belong, but I want to get at 
the whole thing. The rates of the pay, although it was $480 and is now $400, the 
rates of pay are pretty much the same now as they were fifteen years ago? — A. We do 
not get any more than we did then. 

Q. But owing to the increase in the price of commodities the rate of the pay now 
is not as good as it was fifteen years ago ? — A. No, sir. 

Q. Then the temptation of having abnormal pay if they ever did have it is done 
away with ? — A. Enormous pay did you say ? 

Q. I should not use that word perhaps, but the boy having large pay, that does 
not lead to as great temptation as it used to ? — A. From the example of others I do 
not think it does. 

Q- You are brought into contact with all sorts and conditions of people? — A. We 
have nothing to do with the public. 

Q. But you come into contact with them I suppose, you take your meals at one 
of the railway restaurants ? — A. Yes. 

Q. And you see all the porters and conductors and all that sort of thing ? — A. 
Yes, and the brakesmen get more salary than we do so that they can live better. 

Q. Do they stand treat occasionally ? — A. I do not know, I do not take anything 
myself, therefore, I do not know anything about that. 

Q. You think that considering the arduous nature of the duty, the liability to 
accidents, and the destruction of health, that there should be some compensation for 
the railway mail clerks as against other branches of the public service ? — A. Ypr, 
most assuredly. 

Q. You are most liable to accident ? — A. Yes, sir. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 911 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. Is your life insured ? — A. A little. 

Q. Do you pay extra hazardous rates ? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What do they charge you for insuring your life ; what rate of premium 
do you pay? — A. I pay on a policy of the New York Life, $30 a year, and then I am 
in societies. 

Q. Supposing you were not a railway mail clerk, but were a clerk in the post 
office down below, what would you have to pay then ? — A. I do not know, but certainly 
less. 

Q. But they charge you an additional premium because you are in the Railway 
Mail Service ? — A. Yes. I have been refused insurance in societies on account of that. 

Q. Coming to that, with the abolition of the Superannuation Act coupled with the 
fact that you have been refused insurance, you have no means but by careful saving 
of providing for old age ? — A. That is so. 

Q. And you are quite sure in the Eailway Mail Service of being engaged in 
night work ? — A. Yes, sir. I believe that the man that does night work shortens his 
life by ten years. 

Q. I suppose there is a certain increase in the cost of living, by your being ex- 
posed especially in the winter, to the severity of the climate ? You have to clothe your- 
self more than the ordinary man ? — A. Yes, and you have to buy more remedies than 
the ordinary man too. 

Q. Do you work in your shirt sleeves in the car ? — A. Yes, sir, I cannot work 
with my coat on, I have to work pretty hard. 

Q. "When the doors are opened in the winter to let the bags out or take them in 
are you in your shirt sleeves ? — A. Yes, sir, generally. 

Q. Are you not liable to take cold ? — A. Yes, sir, of course, but we cannot hand 
out fifty or 100 bags with our coats on because you would get too warm then and would 
certainly take cold. 

Q. "What do the railways officials do ? They have a jacket with sleeves on for 
that work, I think ? — A. There are none that I know of. 

Q. But the railway porters wear a special kind of clothing and they are out in 
the cold ; I do not say that you should dress as a railway porter does, but they take 
some precaution against the cold in the winter? — A. I do not know about that. 

Q. You talk about the delaying of trains by snow storms, does that frequently 
happen in this district ? — A. Very frequently. In this way we lose much mileage 
through being delayed until after 8 a.m. when the mileage changes from one cent per 
mile to one-half cent per mile. 

Q. Have you got anybody with you on your route ? — A. We are two on that route. 

Q. On all routes are there two ? — A. No, sir, there are routes for four or five, 
and there are routes for one. 

Q. Supposing you are all sick, can you get sick leave? — A- Yes, usually. 

Q. Are there emergency men always ready to do the duty if you are sick, spare 
men, to put in your place? — A. Sometimes, and there are times when you have to re- 
place the man who is sick. 

Q. Are there more than enough men for all the routes? — A. Just about enough. 

Q. If you were sick to-morrow who would replace you ? Have they spare emer- 
gency men — A. Yes, that is left to the superintendent. 

Q. And he has enough men at his disposal to fill up the vacancies caused by 
sickness ? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You were saying that the mileage rarely pays the expenses of the clerks \ 
What time do you leave Montreal ? — A. 4.15 p.m. 

Q. What time do you get in? — A. Around about 10 o'clock. 

Q. Then you have to sleep somewhere there? — A. "Very often we get from 11 to 
12.30 sleep. 

Q. What time do you leave in the morning? — A. One o'clock. 

Q. Then you turn right around and start back two hours after? — A. Yes. 



912 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. You have to take supper down there, you take it on the road? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What time do you get into Montreal on your return? — A. Seven o'clock. 

Q. You can get your breakfast at home? — A. Yes. 

Q. How many meals does the average railway mail clerk have to take on the road? 
— A. I could not say about the average, but I suppose the average clerk will have to 
take about two meals on the road and others may have to take more. 

Q. Taking the average with a couple of meals on the road, and some having to 
sleep, the mileage you consider does not pay? — A. It does not pay the expenses. 

Q. And you say that owing to the abolition of the superannuation and the in- 
ability to insure your lives you are unable to make proper provision for old age and 
for your family as you ought to? — A. No, sir, we are not able to. 

Witness retired. 



Montreal, September 12, 1907. 

Mr. Alphokse Leblaxc, Eailway Mail Clerk, Montreal District, called, sworn and 
examined : — 

By the Chairman: 

Q. You wanted to give us some information, Mr. Leblanc? — A. I will give you 
an instance of the hardships which the railway mail clerks have to endure. Three 
years ago I had to run three nights and three days almost in succession: I left on 
Monday night from Montreal for Toronto, went as far as Belleville, came back the next 
afternoon at 3 o'clock, I came to the office here and I was told I would have to go on 
the Montreal and St. John Railway P. 0-, and I left on that trip at 11 o'clock at night. 
We got stuck in the snow bank at L'Acadie, Que., we went as far as St. Johns, Que., 
and got back at 12 o'clock the next day, that was Wednesday, and I had to go out on 
the Montreal-Toronto route at 5 o'clock. I went to Belleville again and got back at 
3 o'clock Thursday afternoon. I believe railway mail clerks should get better pay. 

Q. That is three days were occupied in covering that ground? — A. Three days 
and three nights without sleep, practically, and on one train I had to change the 
despatch of mails three times, and we had to sort them over again. 

Q. How long have you been in the service? — A. Six years. 

Q. I see you have a cold? — A. I was very sick. 

Q. Is that a result of your occupation? — A. I believe that is the result of over- 
work on the train. 

Q. What is your route? — A. I am employed in the superintendent's office now. 

Q. You are employed ' there, you did not have sick leave? — A. I had sick leave, 
and now I am in the superintendent's office. 

Q. How long since you ceased to do duty as a railway mail clerk? — A. A year 
and a half off the railroad. 

Q. You are still called a railway mail clerk? — A. Yes, and I am paid as such, but 
I do not get mileage, only my salary of $700 a year. 

Q. Do you have a yearly examination on the case to pass ? — A. Yes, sir, the same 
as if I were on the route. 

Q. But if the mileage was any good to you, you do not get it now? — A. I do not 
get it at all, except when sent on the road, and it may not happen once in a year. 

Q. Are there any others like you in the office? — A. None. 

Q. Are there any officials otherwise graded who are doing duty as railway mail 
clerks? — A. There are some in the office, but they are not graded as railway mail clerks, 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 913 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

just on the staff. Also a class called labourers, paid §1.50 a day. These men have not 
passed the Qualifying examinations, and act as railway mail clerks. 

Q. Are they graded as railway mail clerks ( — A. Oh, yes. 

Q. "What I want to find out is whether there are other men like you. graded as 
railway mail clerks, who are not doing the duty of railway mail clerks on the train? 
— A. In each division there is generally a railway mail clerk in the office. 

Q. I suppose it is once a railway mail clerk always a railway mail clerk '.■ — A. 
Unless he gets transferred to the post office staff. 

Q. Does that often happen \ — A. Not very often. 

Q. I do not think it ever does; the only thing you can look forward to is 
superintendent of division? — A. Well 

Q. I know the chances are sixty to one: — A. That is aboul 

Q. Considering that there are sixty mail clerks in this division and one superin- 
tendent, those are the chances. Then there is one man becomes superintende: 
Ottawa ? — A. Yes, he is called the Controller. 

Q. How many districts are there i — A. Xine districts. , 

Q. Then the chances are one in 500 that a railway mail clerk can become the 
controller, that is if there are sixty clerks in a division and only one superintendent. 
That makes that there is one chance in 540 for a man to become controller? — A. Yes. 

Q. Do you know in England that a man may be on a railway route for six months 
n brought into the inspector's office, and is then brought into the other offices 
and shifted round about? — A. They do not do that here. 

Mr. Lallier. — When I was in South Africa I was told by the clerks I met there 
from England that they are four years on the road and four years off, and they are 
only allowed to go on the road twice. 

Q. Do you not think, Mr. Leblanc, that it would be better to adopt a system simi- 
Qar to that which they have in England \ — A. There is one difference, I think, between 
post office clerks here and the railway mail clerks up above. There are clerks in the 
Montreal post office who are not asked to pass the qualifying examination, but only 
the preliminary, and they start at $400 in the fourth class. Very often it happens 
they get promoted from the fourth class to the third class, with $700 a year, inside 
of two or three years, whereas it takes us four and a half to five years to pass into the 
$700 class. 

Q. Do you not think that bears out the argument that it would be better to have 
the service in which the men are constantly shifted? — A. I think railway mail clerks 
ought to be thoroughly acquainted with all that pertains to the railway, and it takes 
years before a clerk gets proficient in his work, and the present system is satisfactory 
to the men. 

Q. But why is it in the mother country, where the service has been going on for 
very many years the practice differs? Would you not think that in England where 
they have had the benefit of long experience they would have the best system? — A. I 
think it would be better to have the railway staff separated as it is now; that is my 
opinion. I would say also that on some railways, like the Canadian Pacific Eailway. 
the accommodation is very good, and on others, for instance the Grand Trunk Eail- 
way, it is a little faulty. Xow, you see between Montreal and Toronto they have a 
car at the present time — I think they are going to change them — thirty-nine feet nine 
inches long, and there are six men working on the train during the night sorting, &c. : 
there is one on the letters, one on the registration, two assistants on the papers, one 
porter, and one sorting for Montreal city. We are working on the bags most of the 
time. There is almost no room to turn about in the car at all. It is a nuisance, and 
I think there ought to be better provision made for handling the mails. 

Q. There are only three lines running out of Montreal, are there not, the Cana- 
dian Pacific Railway, the Grand Trunk Eailway and the Intercolonial Eailway? — A. 
There is also the Canadian Xorthern and the Central Vermont and Q. M. & S. 

-58 



914 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-S EDWARD VII., A. 1908 
Q. But the main mails are carried by the big roads? — A. Yes. 
Witness retired. 



Mr. Charles William Candlish, railway mail clerk, Montreal district, called, 
sworn and examined. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Mr. Candlish, you have given attention to the retirement fund, I believe? — A. 
Yes. With reference to the retirement fund as at present, the department deducts 
five per cent of our wages. 

Q. Is it your own money? — A. Yes, our own money we put up there, and the 
department allows us five per cent on it. I consider they are not doing us any favour 
by doing that, because if I had $100 to invest — at present they" have about $275 of 
mine up at Ottawa — I could loan that money for six per cent at least. 

Q. If that is what you are going to speak about I think we perfectly understand 
it, and that we are able to be with you? — A. That is not exactly what I was going to 
say, but what I wish to say is that we would like to see the Pension Act restored. 

Q. And you would like its operation extended so as to include those who are de- 
pendent on you? — A. Well, yes, there could be great improvement made on the old 
pension law. 

Q. Frequently after years of service men have died who have contributed for 
years to the fund, and their people got nothing back? — A.. That is true. 

Q. And your idea of an ideal pension system would be something that would 
benefit the widow and orphans as well as the man himself? — A. Certainly, something 
in the nature of the bank pension. 

Q. I think, Mr. Candlish, we need not enlarge upon that, if that was what you 
were going to speak about? — A.. That was all, sir. 

Witness retired. 

Montreal., P.Q. 
To the Civil Service Commission : 

Gentlemen, — The railway mail clerks of the Montreal division are pleased to take 
the opportunity afforded them of submitting to your consideration their griefs and 
demands 

Knowing the experience, the tact and ability of the members of your commission 
to understand our special position as railway mail clerks, we submit the following in 
all confidence. 

We request that our present annual increase of $50 be raised to $100, and that 
the maximum salary of $1,200 now paid us be increased to $1,500. 

In support of our claims we would submit the following statement : — 

On entering the service, a railway mail clerk is required to possess the same edu- 
cational qualifications as his confreres in a city post office or the inside service, but 
unlike those gentlemen he must every twelve months pass a strict examination in his 
official duties, and, in order to qualify for promotion, must take as high. a3 90 per 
cent from those examinations, besides, the nature of his work demands the exercise, 
of superior strength and stamina. 

Without at all claiming to be a superior class of men to the clerks in the city 
post offices or the inside service, we do claim that the difficulties and dangers by which 
we are surrounded while engaged in our work demands superior qualifications to 
either of the branches mentioned, and entitles us to a higher remuneration for our 
services. Let us compare our duties with those in a city post office. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 915 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

The work in a city post office is carried on in a well lighted and w -1! rentilated 
room, it admits of a division of labour. One clerk takes charge of registered matter, 
a second sorts letters; the newspapers are sorted by a third; while a fourth clerk per- 
haps looks after the receipt and despatch of the mails, thus the confusion and liability 
to error inseparable from hasty turning from one class of work to another is avoided ; 
not so, however, with the railway mail service, where one clerk carries on all these 
duties often alone and amid the tumult of a rapidly moving train; the air of the car 
vitiated by burning lamps or smoke and dust. He has to accommodate himself in 
carrying on his work in postal cars of various sizes and designs gotten "ip without 
regard to the requirements of his route and changed from time to time to suit the 
caprice and convenience of the railway company. 

The hardships of winter travelling, the maladies that we are constantly exposed 
to, contact by currents of air, &c., the delays of trains by snow storms, must also be 
taken into consideration. 

Should any emergency occur in a city post office, the clerk has the advantage of 
being able to consult an immediate superior on the spot, avoiding responsibility for 
action taken, but a railway mail clerk has to act and think for himself, as in case of 
an accident or detention of his train, the decision must be made at once without 
assistance from any one, and while out of the reach of order3. 

When failing to connect with other trains he must be able without hesitation to 
make such disposition of his mails that they may be forwarded with the least possible 
delay, and this can be done only if the clerk possesses a thorough familiarity with the 
train and stage service at all points of connections along his route, united with cool- 
ness, accuracy and self-confidence in the performance of his work. In fact, every 
clerk in charge of a mail car actually assumes the responsibility and performs the 
duties of a chief in a city po3t office. 

The mileage, with a few exceptions, barely pays the expenses of a clerk while 
absent from home on duty. 

As the superannuation has been abolished, there is the greater need of increase 
in salary, so that a clerk may provide for old age or when the time comes that he can 
labour no longer. 

Our petition is not the outcome of mercenary or unworthy spirit, but it is the 
logical sequence of conditions over which we have no conrtrol, such as the greatly in- 
creased cost of living, &c. 

Other employers of labour have recognized these conditions and made generous 
provisions to alleviate the burdens they entail. 

So we respectfully request you to take our demands into consideration. 

Signed on behalf of the railway mail clerks of Montreal by the undersigned: — 
(Sgd.) JOS. LALLIER. President of the Committee. 
Z. RAYMOISTD, Secretary of the Committee. 

P.S. — As an immediate relief, we would respectfully suggest that a general in- 
crease of 25 per cent be granted to us. besides what already asked above. 



To the Secretary of the Civil Service Commission. 

Sir, — Owing to an unexpected demand of my running mate, I am to be in Mont- 
real Wednesday instead of Friday. As it may be quite possible that the Commission- 
ers may be otherwise occupied and have no time for me, I have taken the liberty to 
put these few lines in writing. My appearance before the Commission at all is at the 
urgent solicitation of some of the boys, who seem to fear that it is the intention of the 
younger men to ignore entirely the claims and services of the older men, who have 
helped to make the R.M.S. what it is to-day, for very much less pay than the younger 
men are getting to-day for doing very much less work. 

29a— 58* 



916 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Briefly, — I think that the initial salary paid to E.P.O clerks is very much too 
small. I entered the service at $4S0, $39 net per month, and could not begin to take 
care of a family of four on that, even with rigid economy. This was for a year and a 
half without mileage, which was not added till March, 1873. This small entrance 
salary was cut by legislation that seems to me fairly criminal, to $300 and even now 
stands at $400. If it were doubled it would not be too much. Except for the addition 
of the mileage, the salary laid down in 1857, and remained till Sir Wm. Mulock's Bill 
raised the maximum to $1,200, and it has taken us five years, to reach that, and the 
$1,200 will to-day do scarcely more for us than $960 would do then, and everything 
of the necessaries of life is continually advancing in price. Witness the advance of 
bread, milk and coal, the last two promised for next week, while meat has been ad- 
vancing all the time and rents the same. I think, and others with me, that the maxi- 
mum should be raised to $1,500 and that those who are now at the maximum and who 
had been for years at $960 should be advanced at once to the maximum, to make up 
for the years they were kept at such small pay. For one, I find it impossible to make 
my salary sufficient and I have never used liquor or tobacco, nor wasted my money on 
myself in any way. The R.M.S. is one of the most necessary of all the branches of 
the Civil Service. Suppose it to be discontiuued entirely, it would be very much like 
going from Montreal to Vancouver on the limited and stepping off the rear platform 
with your suit case in your hand to walk back. The public know little of the work- 
ings of the R.M.S. A lady once said to me, ' What do you do in the mail car ? ' I 
said, ' I am away from home fourteen hours or more. I ride 216 miles ; I stand on 
my feet in the car nine hours ; I handle a mail for every three or four miles I run, 
and for every seven or eight minutes I am in the car, and the rest of the time I sleep.' 
' Why,' said she, ' I should'nt think you would get any time to sleep at all.' It seems 
to me unfair that the superannuation of men who have past the thirty-five year limit 
should be put on the three-year average plan. Is this not really exacting a superannu- 
ation charge after it has been formally and nominally discontinued ? All sorts of 
rumors are current as to the intention of the Post Office Department and of the pro- 
bable action of the present Commission. They are business men and the chairman's 
reputation is deservedly high, as being a man thoroughly acquainted with the Civil 
Service in all its branches, and as being an honourable and fair-minded man. I am 
willing to leave the matter in his hands, to treat fairly a branch of the service which 
is at once one of the most laborious, hazardous, most responsible and far-reaching in 
its usefulness of any and at the same time one of the most poorly paid, all things con- 
sidered. 

Very respectfully. 

(Signed) J. D. ANDERSON, 
September 10, 1907. Ry. Mail Clerk. 



Montreal, November 14, 1907. 

Hon. Royal Commissioners of Civil Service. 

Dear Sirs, — The undersigned begs to submit to the consideration of your com- 
mission as follows: Entered the public service in June, 1S89, six years as letter car- 
rier, and thirteen years at clerk work, chief of carrier's branch, four years, acting P.M. 
St. Lawrence branch and Carriers' branch, three years general sorting news depart- 
ment, two years registered matter department, three years presently acting as letter 
sorter and despt, yet after such a period was made 4th class clerk March 1, 1906 till 
April 1, 1907, always at $600 per annum, carrier's maximum salary, and since April 1, 
1907, was made 3rd class junior with an advance of $100 per annum, whilst all my 
comrade clerks having same length of service have mostly all attained 3rd senior clerk- 
ship with $900 per annum, and even some clerks having only from three (3) to seven 
(7) years' service same classification 3rd class junior $700 per annum, and a few have 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 917 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

been lately placed at $800, when I with almost 19 years of my life spent to public ser- 
vice, I am yet standing to same level of classification and salary with those late comers. 

I did not present myself before your commission during your sittings in Montreal, 
being under the impression that your work of readjusting matters in the Montreal post 
office in reviewing the list of employees, my case would come under notice. 

I also beg to call your attention that I secured my clerkship through a lengthy 
correspondence exchanged with the Deputy Postmaster General, who finally called on 
the ex-Deputy Postmaster of the Montreal post office to give an account of my last 
ten years' employment from March, 1906, to verify the truthfulness of my correspond- 
ence and claim somewhat forcing his recommendation in my favour when said account 
reached headquarters, secured for me a clerkship appointment, that is from carrier 
to stamper and sorter appointment then to 4th class clerk and since April 1, third 
class. 

Is it justification that after having lost so valuable time I should be kept at the 
same level as those that have only a few years of service to their record, being ahnost 
last in the class, having been overheaded by a large number of younger ones with three 
or four years in the service. 

Entirely resting upon your spirit of justice and the poet saying ' never too late 
to right a wrong.' I remain, 

Your most obedient servant, 

T. De LAMADELEINE, 

Montreal Post Office. 



Quebec, September is. 1907. 
Mr. Octave Z. Talbot, sworn and examined. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. You are superintendent of the Kailway Mail Service of the Quebec district I — 
A. Yes. 

Q. How long have you been in the service? — A. Thirty-two years. I was appointed 
in 1875. 

Q. You came in as a young man at the age of 24? — A. Yes. 

Q. What is your salary now?— A. $1,800. 

Q. What did you begin at?— A. $400. 

Q. You began at the bottom? — A. Yes. 

Q. Then you passed through all the grades, did you? — A. Yes. The scale of 
salaries was different then from what it is now. 

Q. Did you pass any examination? — A. Yes. I had to pass the Civil Service 
examination in order to be appointed a mail clerk, and I had to pass examinations to 
be promoted. 

Q. What steps did you take before you became a railway mail superintendent? 
Did you pass through the different grades of railway mail clerks? — A. Yes. from the 
third class to the first class. I was appointed superintendent from the first class of 
railway mail clerks. 

Q. How long have you been superintendent? — A. Ten years. 

Q. Then for twenty- two years you were on the trains as a railway mail clerk? — 
A. Yes. 

Q. What were your districts? — A. I ran on every railway route we have in the 
district of Quebec — the Grand Trunk, the Canadian Pacific Railway, the Intercolonial, 
the Quebec Central, and the Lake St. John. 

Q. Did the work of going out on the trains day after day affect your health? — 
A. Yes. My nerves suffered. 



918 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. Have you the examination of the railway mail clerks in this district? — A. Yes. 

Q. How many railway mail clerks have you in this district — A. Fifty-five. 

Q. Are they all permanent? — A. No. We have seven or eight who are not per- 
manent, and we have four or five* who are called labourers, but who are acting as rail- 
way mail clerks. These men reecive $1.50 a day for each day's work they give. They 
receive nothing for any days they are off duty. 

Q. Are these men called labourers who are doing the duty of railway mail clerks 
required to pass any examination? — A. No. That is the reason they have to be ap- 
pointed as labourers, according to the law as it is now. 

Q. Then, they are employed temporarily and called labourers, to do the work of 
railway mail clerks, because they failed to pass any examination? — A. Because they 
have not passed; and when they enter the service with the status, of labourers they 
have to sign a document stating that it is well understood that they have to present 
themselves for the first case examination that may be held in the district. 

Q. If they pass the case examination are they still called labourers ? — A. No. As 
soon as they pass the examination the fact is reported to Ottawa, and very shortly 
afterwards they are appointed probationary railway mail clerks, in which position they 
have to serve six months more. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. What salary do they get then? — A. They get at the rate of $400 a year. 

Q. That is only what they got before? — A. Yes, but with this difference, that once 
they are appointed railway mail clerks they get the travelling allowance of one, cent 
a mile for every mile they travel from eight o'clock in the evening until eight o'clock 
in the morning. 

Q. Do they not get that as labourers? — A. No. They get nothing but the $1.50 
a day. 

Q. Are there many applicants for the position of railway mail clerk? — A. Yes, 
there are always a good many applications for that branch of the service ; but although 
all those who come in as labourers would be well satisfied to be appointed railway mail 
clerks, they would not, according to my experience, apply for such a position if they 
could realize what it meant. They are under the impression that once they are in the 
service they are all right; because a man who comes in at $1.50 a day works under 
very poor conditions. He is almost always obliged to take the poorest routes, and 
routes where he will be away all night, thereby being obliged to pay for his supper, his 
bed and his breakfast out of his $1.50 a day. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Do you find that men are leaving the railway mail service to better them- 
selves? — A. Yes, because they find that they cannot possibly live on the pay of $1.50 
a day. 

Q. Do you find a difficulty in replacing them? — A. Oh, no, there are always 
dozens of applications. 

Q. Then in Quebec the supply is greater than the demand? — A. Yes. 

Q. How are these men appointed? — A. They are appointed by Order in Council 
from Ottawa. 

Q. You know nothing about them until they come to you? — A. No. 

Q. The man living next door to you may be an applicant and you know nothing 
about it? — A. Nothing. 

Q. You know, as a matter of fact, I suppose, that all these people are nominated 
by political influence? — A. Yes. 

Q. Do you find that the men now entering the service are as good and efficient as 
those who entered say fifteen or sixteen years ago? — A. No. 

Q. That is to say, a good clever man can make a better living outside now than 
he could in? — A. Yes. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 919 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. That is no fault of politics, but it is because things are better? — A. Yes. 
Q. What do you think should be the salary of a railway mail clerk when enter- 
ing the service I — A. I am under the impression that the cost of living is about as high 
in Canada to-day as it is in the United States, and I would consider that the salaries 
paid to railway mail clerks in the United States would be fair in Canada. 

Q. What do railway mail clerks in the United States enter at '. — A. $800. 
Q. What do they raise to t— A. $1,600. 
Q. A first-class railway mail clerk gets $1,600? — A. Yes. 

Q. Have they districts in the United States as we have ( — A. Yes, they are all 
classed as districts. 

Q. What does the superintendent of a district in the United States get? — A. The 
general superintendent for the whole United States gets $4,000. 

Q. What does a man in a position like yours get? — A. The general superintendent 
has an assistant, who gets $3,500. A man in my position in the United States gets 
$3,000 a year. 

Q. A district superintendent in the United States gets $3,000 a year and you get 
$1,800?— A. Yes. 

Q. $1,800 is paid by statute, whether in Montreal, Quebec or anywhere else i — A. 
Yes. 

Q. You are one of the old employees? You are under the Superannuation Act? 
—A. Yes. 

Q. Has the abolition of the Superannuation Act had any effect in your branch 
of the service \ — A. Yes. 

Q. Tell us what effect it has had ( — A. I think all the clerks employed in the rail- 
way mail service to-day would very much prefer the system of superannuation that 
formerly existed. A man's constitution gives out very soon in the railway mail ser- 
vice. It takes a very strong man to bear the service more than twenty-five or thirty 
years. 

Q. How long can an ordinary man stand it? — A. From ten to fifteen years. 
Q. In your branch of the service, where a man is quickly used up, the Super- 
annuation Act, besides being restored, should make some provision for the family? — 
A. I am strongly of that opinion. 

Q. When a railway mail clerk fails to pass the case examination the annual 
addition to his salary is stopped? — A. Yes. 

Q. Do you find that some of your railway mail clerks get into such a nervous 
state that they cannot pass the case examination? — A. Hardly. To my mind, it is 
indispensable, and easy for a man who goes at it in the proper way. 
Q. One of the railway mail clerks gets only $550 a year ? — A. Yea. 
Q. And a man appointed later gets $670? — A. Yes. 
Q. Did the first man fail to pass the case examination? — A. Ye?. 
Q. Was that owing to bad habits? — A. Xo. The man has good habits, but un- 
fortunately he never was fit for the service, and to-day he is in an asylum. 

Q. But he is still on the pay-list? — A. Yes. and under the law he will remain so 
for a year. The man is a hard worker and a saving man, and he could have done well 
enough in some other business where he would have been the right man in the right 
place. 

Q. What is the annual increment in the salary of a railway mail clerk? — A. $50 
a year. 

Q. That man could not pass for two or three years? — A. He was blocked for two 
or three years, and I suppose he strained his brain so much in the effort to pass the 
examination that he went insane. 

Q. Should not some provision be made whereby a disabled railway mail clerk 
should be retired ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Generally speaking, what suggestions have you to make in regard to the rail- 
way mail service ? — A. I think that after this no man should be appointed in the ser- 



920 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

vice as a labourer. This system has certainly proved to be a. failure. One reason is 
that a man who is called upon to perform the duty of a railway mail clerk has to 
give all his attention for the first two years or so to studying and learning the dis- 
tribution and the work. He has on his mind the fact that he has to prepare for the 
first Civil Service examination, and he is very often afraid that _ he will not be able 
to pass it, and on this account he does not give the proper attention to the duties of 
the railway mail clerk. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. Why do you say that in most cases the man has the conviction that he is not 
going to pass the examination? — A. Because he has not the necessary education for 
it, and I think you will find that the civil service examination, so far as the railway 
mail service is concerned, is altogether different from what it should be. It is gene- 
rally the case in our province that a young man from the country has only the educa- 
tion that he gets at the common school, and has learned absolutely nothing of the 
history of France or the history of England, or things of that sort. 

Q. Will he have learned to cipher? — A. To a certain extent; but in the matter 
of mathematics he has certainly learned nothing to enable, him to fulfil the proper 
duties of a railway mail clerk. 

Q. How long do these sons of farmers usually stay in school? — A. From five to 
eight years — until they are 16 or IT years of age; not in every case, but generally. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. What suggestions have you to make with regard to the labourers S — A. I 
would say that there is no possibility of a man living on a salary of $1.50 a day. That 
is sufficient to discourage them in the service, and that has been my experience of the 
system. 

Q. Have you anything more to say? — A. I think not, with regard to that. 

Q. Once a boy enters the service as a railway mail clerk and as long as he stays 
in the service he is a railway mail clerk. — A. Yes. 

Q. Nothing else? — A. Nothing else. 

Q. A railway mail clerk, during the first three or four years of his career, is pro- 
bably a better officer than he is after he has been twenty years in the service, is he 
not? — A. No. I believe the contrary is true to-day. This is due very likely_ to the 
fact that we do not get the same class of people in the service. 

Q. Does not a man know his duties better in the first half dozen years than he 
would when his nerves got shattered after another half dozen years? — A. Not to my 
knowledge. 

Q. Are the men who have been twenty or twenty-five years in the service as effi- 
cient as they were in the earlier part of their career? — A. Yes. generally. 

Q. There axe some exceptions, I suppose, of men whose nerves are broken down ? 
—A. Yes. 

Q. Don't you think it would be better, in the general interests of the service, to 
do as is done in England, where the railway mail clerks, after serving a little time, 
are put in the inspector's office and then into the post office, and are shifted about? 
— A. Yes, I think it would. 

Q. When a railway mail clerk comes back from his route does he report to you ? 
—A. No. 

Q. When you send a man to Sherbrooke, for instance, and he returns, does he 
simply go home ? — A. He comes to the Quebec office, and looks at the order book or 
book of instructions, to see if there are any new instructions, and especially what we 
call the list of duties. That book gives every man his duties for the week. 

Q. Does he sign that ? — A. He signs a book, but this list he does not sign. 

. Q. Then you know, from his signing a book, that he has been on duty ? — A. Yes. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 921 

SESSIONAL PAPER \i. 29a 

Q. Although he does not report to you on his return, you have means of knowing 
that a man has been on duty ? — A. Absolutely. 

Q. Do you shift your men about very much ? — A. We keep the same man as much 
as possible on the one route. 

Q. And the same man may be going on the one route for thirty years ? — A. Oh, 
no. A man is first put on a poor route or a small route, and in the course of time 
he is promoted to a beter or a more paying Toute. 

By Mr. Bazin : 
Q. What do you mean by a better paying route ? — A. A route with more mileage. 
For instance, on the Intercolonial railway we have a route from Levis to Campbell- 
ton; that is 305 miles. A man travelling on that route will leave Quebec at, say 5 
o'clock in the evening, and will return home about noon on the following day. That 
route gives him a very fine mileage, because he gets a cent for every mile he has 
•travelled between 8 in the evening and 8 the n$ext morning. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Does the man who leaves for Campbellton at five in the evening and comes 
back the next day start again at five that evening ? — A. A. Oh, no. He has to lie 
off for at least one day and two nights. 

Q. Then a man gradually betters his position by getting a better route ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Even after he has a better route, you take care that he is not always on night 
duty ?— A. Yes. 

Q. That he is off one night or two nights ? — A. Two nights and one day. 

Q. As an old railway mail clerk, don't you think that this constant travelling on 
railway trains and standing on the feet all the time in a corner of a car near the 
engine must injure the health ? — A. Greatly, and I would strongly recommend that 
the habit of placing the railway mail car next to the engine should be given up. 
The shaking of the car in that position is double what it is in any other part of the 
train. Another difficulty is this : At any season of the year the railway mail clerk, 
in his shirt sleeves and bareheaded, has to go to the door of the car and be ready to 
deliver and receive the mail at each station as soon as the train moderates its speed. 
Sometimes the car, being next to the engine, will be three or four hundred fee* from 
the station platform, and the mail carrier has to wade in deep snow sometimes to 
reach the postal car. For five or six months in the year a man is exposed to severe 
weather. 

Q. In addition to the nerves being affected/ a railway mail clerk suffers from the 
vicissitudes of climate ? — A. Yes, greatly. 

Q. What kind of accommodation has the man going to Campbellton in the mail 
car ? — A. Not always the best. 

Q. What is generally the kind of accommodation ? — A. On the long routes there 
is generally an accommodation car — half baggage and half postal. 

Q. Is the railway mail clerk in a position to lie down if he has a chance ? ? — A. 
He has a very poor chance. The cars are not built to enable him to do so. On that 
subject will you allow me to state that seven or eight years ago the general post office 
inspector, who then had charge of the railway mail service, gave instructions to all 
the companies who supplied the postal cars, not to have any kind of bunk or bed put 
in a car. 

Q. Have they a stool to sit upon ? — A. Yes. 

Q. They must stay up ? — A. They must stay up. 

Q. But I suppose they do not often sit on the stool ? — A. They do, because they 
have nothing (else — sometimes on the table or sometime3 on the mail bags. 

Q. Have you any other suggestions you wish to make? — A. I- submit a memor- 
andum on behalf of the railway mail superintendents of Canada. (Memorandum read 
and filed.) 



922 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. If the railway mail car is still to be kept next the engine, could it be built 
differently so that the jarring would be diminished ? — A. Yes, I think it could ; but 
I think the main object is to remove it and put it next to tbe second class passenger 
car. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. "Would not a steel car be a great improvement ? — A. It might be, as it would 
probably be a heavier and more solid car. 

Q. It does not follow that it would be less vibratory ? — A. No. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Have any accidents happened to railway mail clerks in this district lately ? 
— A. Yes. About a month ago a train on the Quebec and Lake St. John railway ran 
off the track. The clerk on duty happened to be one our oldest clerks, and he had a 
very bad shaking up. He tried to continue at work ; in fact, he performed a couple 
of trips after that : but he had to give up the work, and he has now been laid off 
for two weeks. 

Q. Is he on leave of absence now? — A. Yes. 

Q. Has he applied for anything? — A. No, because he is under the impression that 
in three weeks, which he is allowed as annual leave, be will be able to resume work 
again. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Has the Government any arrangement for accident insurance covering the risk 
of accidents? — A. No. The Post Office Department has notified its employees that 
in case of accidents like that, their claim must be made against the railway company 
which is supposed to be responsible for the accident. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Have there been any other accidents in this district, such as fire in a railway 
mail car? — A. No fire, but we have had different run-offs. 

Q. You had no accident in which a man's clothes were burnt, or anything of that 
kind ? — A. I do not recollect any. "Would you allow me to suggest the appointment of 
a man as railway mail clerk inspector for the whole Dominion, who would have 
authority to go to a railway company and say to them, for this route we want a car 
built and equipped according to such and such a plan. The same man could be the 
examiner of the railway mail clerks for the Dominion. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. Would one be enough I — A. I think so. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Would you recommend that the Railway Commission should be appointed to 
inquire into the suitability and durability of the railway mail cars ? — A. Yes, and the 
disposition of the same. 

Q. Have you any other suggestions to make? — A. No. 



UOYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 923 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Superintendent, Railway Mail Service. 

Quebec, Que., September 18, 1907. 
Chairman, 

Civil Service Commission, 
Ottawa. 

Dear Sir, — Referring to the inquiries in regard to salaries and the status of em- 
ployees of the Civil Service at present being considered by the members of your Board : 

The superintendents of the Railway Mail Service of Canada desire to direct your 
attention to the following facts in the hope that the present disadvantages under which 
they labour in regard to their salaries may be ameliorated. 

In the year 1897 the Railway Mail Service Branch was established. Previous to 
that time the Railway Mail Service had been under the control of the several post 
office inspectors of Canada, the details of the service being looked after by chief clerks 
in the inspectors' offices. The maximum of the chief clerk's salary was $1,500 per 
annum. When the Railway Mail Service Branch was formed the chief clerks were 
made superintendents of the various districts — nine in all — but they received no in- 
crease in salary. 

The duties of superintendents are: to arrange for all transportation by railway 
and all land services which touch the railway. The control of all railway mail clerks 
and office staff, and the annual examination of railway mail clerks in their duties and 
efficiency, the compiling of schedules, the reporting upon and organizing new services, 
assisting inspectors when requested in investigating irregularities and the arrange- 
ments with and payments of transportation companies. These duties we submit are 
of equal, if not of greater importance* and responsibility, and entailing greater wear 
and tear, than those of the post office inspector. The great discrepancy between the 
salaries of inspectors and superintendents, place the latter under a disadvantage in 
their dealings with the public, with transportation companies, and, in a peculiar sense 
with the various departments and staffs. The contention could fairly be made that 
mail transportation is the basis of the whole postal service ; and the fact may be men- 
tioned that in order to qualify a person to fill the position of superintendent it is 
required by the statute that the candidate shall have served at least ten years as a rail- 
way mail clerk. The salaries should be equal to any in the outside service of the 
department, and not, as in some cases, simply on a par with the clerks on the staff. In 
the revision of 'salaries in 1903 the salary of superintendents was increased to equal 
that of an assistant post office inspector, with a maximum of $1,800 per annum. This 
increase has not even kept pace with the increased cost of living, nor has it improved 
the status of superintendents, but rather the contrary by placing them on the same 
footing as assistant post office inspectors, whose duties are by no means as responsible 
or as arduous. 

Respectfully yours, 

E. P. BENT, 

Supt., Halifax. 
O. TALBOT, 

Supt., Quebec. 



924 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

STATEMENT SHOWING SALARIES OF SUPERINTENDENTS OF THE 
RAILWAY MAIL SERVICE, P.O. INSPECTORS AND RAILWAY MAIL 
CLERKS IN THE UNITED STATES. 

Boston, June 13, 1907. 
0. Talbot, Esq., 

Superintendent R.M.S., 

Quebec, P.Q. 

Dear Sir, — Replying to your favour of June 12, the scale of salaries in this ser- 
vice is as f ollows :— - 

X General Superintendent K.M.S. Washington, DC $4,000 

X Assistant General Superintendent, n 3,500 

X Division Superintendents, (eleven) 3,000 

X Assistant •■ 2,000 

X ., (travelling) 1,800 

X Chief Clerks, (ten in this Division) 1,800 

Railway Postal Clerks, Class 6, 2 cars 1,600 

5, 2 1,500 

5, 1 1,400 

(2nd Clerk) „"4, ? 1,300 

4, 1 ., 1,200 

3 1,100 

■2 1,000 

1 900 

ii ( probationary) 1 800 

X Allowed travelling expenses. 

P.O. Inspector — in charge of a Division 3,000 

P.O. Inspectors, 10 in the United States 2,400 

15 2,200 

15 2,000 

10 1,800 

130 1,600 

110 1,400 

72 1,200 

All Inspectors, except City Inspectors, are allowed 84.00 per diem. 

Positions in the higher grades are filled by promotion of clerks in the lower 
grades, and P.O. inspectors are selected from the R.M.S. after examination, and are 
promoted in like manner. 



Quebec, September 19, 1907. 

Mr. F. M. McNaughton, representing the office staff of the Railway Mail Service, 
was sworn and examined. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. You are one of the chief clerks in the office of the superintendent of the 
Railway Mail Service of this district? — A. At present we have four clerks besides a 
railway mail clerk working in the office. 

Q. You have four on the permanent staff? — A. Yes. 

Q. What is your position in the service? — A. I am the senior clerk under the 
superintendent. 

Q. How are you classified ? — A. I am a senior second class clerk at the maximum 
of the class. 

Q. What is your salary?— A. $1,200. 

Q. You entered the service in 1890? — A. Yes. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 925 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. Did you come through the railway mail service? — A. No. I was first a tem- 
porary clerk in the office of the Post Office inspector, and when a railway mail service 
branch was established I was transferred from the inspector's office to the new branch. 

Q. Then did you become a railway mail clerk? — A. No. 

Q. Have you a memorial? — A. Yes. (Memorial read and filed.) 

Q. This is a collective document from the staff of the Railway Mail Clerks' branch 
throughout the Dominion? — A. Yes. 

Q. Signed by representatives at Ottawa, Montreal and Quebec? — A. Yes. 

Q. And you are all in accord in its representations? — A. Yes. 

Q. You were saying just now that the clerical staff in the superintendent's office 
now consists of four people at Quebec? — A. Four permanent clerks and one railway 
mail clerk, who being in rather poor health, is working in the office. 

Q. What salary does he get?— A. $1,200. 

Q. Is he graded still as a railway mail clerk ' — A. Yes. 

Q. He has not been put on the staff of the office I — A. No. 

Q. Have you taken him into the office because after a lengthened service he is 
in rather shattered health, and it is not desirable to place him on the superannuation 
list ? — A. Exactly. He can make himself useful in the office. 

Q. You have not taken him into the office because you dread the politician, and 
do not want anybody from outside ? — A. No, not at all. 

Q. It is out of commiseration for the man ? — A. Yes. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. How old is he ? — A. Sixty-four years. He is the oldest of the railway mail 
clerks. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Rather than place him on the retired list, he beine a good man and having 
served faithfully, and being still capable of some work inside, you took him on the 
inside staff \ — -^A. Yes, and having had twenty-four children I might mention. 

Q. He is deprived to some extent of the privilege of mileage? — A. Yes, he lost 
his mileage. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 
Q. Do you know how many of these children are living : — A No, I could not say. 
Q. Is he a solid and a steady man? — A. Oh, yes, he is very respectable. 
Q. His children are grown up? — A. Yes, some of his children are much richer 
than he is. I believe ten of his children are still at home with him. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Those that left the family roof, I suppose, help him? — A. I could not say. 

Q. Otherwise, I suppose, it would be utterly impossible for a man with $1,200 a 
year to support such a family? — A. I should think so. He is living in his own house 
in a suburb. 

Q. If you would like to add anything to the memorial, you can submit a supple- 
mentary memorandum ? — A. I have tried to include everything necessary in the 
memorial. In regard to the cost of living, I took what I thought was an average for 
the Dominion, adopting the figures of the Civil Service Association at Ottawa as 
being fairly representative; but judging by my mother's household expenses, I should 
think that the increased cost of living in Quebec was at least fifty per cent. 

To the Honourable the Royal Commissioners appointed to inquire into matters per- 
taining to the Civil Service of Canada. 

Gentlemen, — The clerks employed in the offices of the superintendents of the 
railway mail service of Canada respectfully lay before you their claims for recogni- 



926 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 



7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

tion in the recommendations you may see fit to make for the betterment of the posi- 
tion of the civil servant. 

The Railway Mail Service branch was created in the year 1897. The duties are, 
in brief, the despatch, transportation and delivery of mail by rail and water through- 
out Canada. The duties of the office staff include the control and instruction of rail- 
way mail clerks, the preparation of distribution lists, books and schedules, the issuing 
of instructions governing the despatch from and receipt of mails at post offices, the 
organization of new services, the payment of transportation companies, the checking 
of registered letter returns, &c, &c. Prior to 1897 this work was performed by the 
post office inspectors and their staffs, and on the organization of our branch the super- 
intendents were provided with staffs selected from the inspectors' offices. 

There are superintendents' offices at Halifax, St. John, N.B., Quebec, Montreal, 
Ottawa, Toronto, London, Winnipeg and Vancouver. The office staff, exclusive of the 
superintendents, consists of some 39 employees, and on the 1st July last there were 
626 railway mail clerks, transfer agents and train porters. The clerical staff, as re- 
gards rank and salary, is on the same footing as the clerks in city post offices and in 
the offices of post office inspectors. In 1897, when our branch was formed, we were 
classified and paid as follows, this scale having been in force for many years previous : 



Third Class . . 
Second Class. 
First Class . . . 



? 400 00 to $ 800 00 

900 00 to 1,200 00 

1,200 00 to 1,800 00 



In 1902 this was modified as follows 

Fourth Class 

Third Class 

Second Class 

First Class 



In 1903 this was again modified, viz. 

Fourth Class 

Junior Third Class 

Senior Third Class 

Junior Second Class 

Senior Second Class 

First Class 



400 00 to $ 


600 00 


600 00 to 


800 00 


900 00 to 


1,200 00 


1,200 00 to 


1,500 oa 


400 00 to $ 


700 00- 


700 00 to 


800 00 


800 00 to 


900 00 


900 00 to 


1,000 00 


1,000 00 to 


1,200 00' 


1,200 00 to 


1,500 00 



An examination of these modifications will show that they have not effected any 
betterment in our position, with the single exception thai; the maximum and minimum 
of the third class has been raised. As, however, a fourth class was created with a 
minimum of $400 aad a maximum of $700, the young man entering the service finds 
himself worse off than before, and as the third elass has been divided into junior and 
senior divisions the third class man also finds himself little, if any, better off. For- 
merly, he was at the maximum of his class when he had reached a salary of $800, and 
could hope for promotion to the second class with a steady progression towards a maxi- 
mum of $1,200. At present, when he reaches a salary of $800 he is only at the maxi- 
mum of the junior third class, and often experiences long and vexatious delays before 
he can obtain promotion to the senior third class. Even when this promotion is ob- 
tained he must wait one year more before receiving any increase, as the maximum of 
one class is the same as the minimum of the next one. He has to experience vexatious 
delays twice again, i.e., to obtain promotion from the senior third class to junior 
second class, and from junior to senior second class, before he can feel secure of ever 
reaching a maximum salary of $1,200. The only person in the outside service who 
was in any way benefited by the changes above referred to was the third class clerk 
who at the time was drawing a salary less than the new minimum of the class, as he 
was at once advanced to the same. 

To sum up therefore, the Act of 1903, which gave increased salaries to almost 
every class of Civil Servant, to post office inspectors and their assistants, to superin- 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 927 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

tendents of the railway mail service, to railway mail clerks, and to the inside service 
generally, gave nothing to the clerical staff of the outside service of the Post Office 
Department, whose remuneration remains practically what it was shortly after Con- 
federation. And as it appears that almost all those who received some increase in 
1903 are petitioning for still further recognition, we submit that every word they say 
applies with special force to us. 

The question of the increased cost of living has been dealt with so exhaustively 
in memorials sent to you by other branches of the Service that we think it un- 
necessary to recapitulate here what has been said so well by others. It has, we 
believe, been established beyond a doubt that it costs at least from 25% to 35% more 
to live now than it did even ten years ago. As a matter of fact, the struggle for a 
decent existence has become so arduous that any measures of relief granted, to be 
effected, should deal with the immediate improvement of existing conditions. Merely 
increasing the attainable maximum would afford but little relief at the present moment 
when it is most needed. 

While we would prefer to leave entirely to your judgment the extent of relief 
necessary to restore to us that degree of comfort that the Civil Service Act originally 
intended we should enjoy, still we feel that you would probably be better pleased to 
receive a concrete exprssion of our views in the matter. We therefore, with all due 
respect, submit the following suggestions : — 

1st. That present salaries be increased 25%. 

2nd. That the maximum of classes be correspondingly increased, and the minimum 
readjusted where necessary. 

3rd. That annual increases be $100 instead of $50. 

4th. That promotion from one class to another be made easier than it is at present, 
so that when an employee reaches the maximum of one class he can count on promotion 
to the next without delay, unless for misconduct, inefficiency or other causes he does 
not deserve it. 

The foregoing suggestions, if adopted, would ensure to each employee a reasonable 
certainty of reaching in time a salary of $1,900, provided his conduct and services had 
given satisfaction. In banks and business houses inquiry shows that a painstaking 
man ©f average ability and intelligence has a reasonable expectation of attaining after, 
say, 25 years' service, a salary of $2,000 or over, and he may do very much better. His 
prosperity, moreover, increases with that of the country. The Civil Servant, on the 
other hand, has few chances of reaching a salary of $2,000, and none at all of obtain- 
ing one that would be considered large in banking or commercial circles, while the 
prosperity of the country only affects his income to decrease its purchasing power. 
As to the nature ef his work it is as exacting and as important to the welfare of the 
community as that of the bankers' and merchants' clerks and demands at least as high 
a standard of intelligence and devotion to duty. We feel, therefore, that in asking 
for him that he may at least look forward to an income of $1,900, we are making a 
very modest request. 

Hitherto the Canadian Civil Servant has always taken his place in the life of the 
community as a desirable and useful citizen wherever located. To maintain this 
standing has been for some years increasingly difficult, and now he sees with morti- 
fication that he must inevitably fall back in the social scale unless he finds other 
sources of income. This means that the service will suffer in tone and that the Civil 
Servant of the future will neither command the respect of the community, as in the 
past, nor average as high in intelligence and ability, unless paid something approach- 
ing the value placed on such qualities in other walks of life. 

Before closing we beg leave to endorse the position taken by the Civil Service 
Association in regard to insurance and superannuation. We would like to see the 
Retirement Act abolished and the former Superannuation Acts revived and amplified 
so that some provision might be made for the return of moneys paid in to the depend- 



928 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 



7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

ents of an employee who dies while still in office. We would also suggest that after 
30 vears' service, or after reaching the age of 55, an employee should be entitled to 
retire on whatever pension may be due him. 

We have the honour to be, sirs, 

Your obedient servants, 
(Signed) 

fH. W. JACKSON, Ottawa. 
Committee. \j. KAHALA, Montreal. 

[F. M. MacNAUGHTON, Quebec. 
Montreal, September 14, 1907. 



Statement showing the number of clerks in each class, employed in the offices of the 
Superintendents of the Railway Mail Service. Also, the average salary and 
average years of service per class : — 



Class. 



Number 

of 
Clerks. 



Average 
Salary. 



Average 
Years 

of Service. 



1st 






3 

s 
6 

4 
1 
8 

9 


1,333 

1.151 
983 
812 
750 

4(37 


20i 






12" 


Senior 3rd 


:k 




5" 


4th 






3h 


Messengers, temporary cleiks and 
offices 


railway clerks working 


in the 














Total 


39 













Office of the Superintendent Railway Mail Service, 

Quebec, September 18, 1907. 

To the President and Members of the Civil Service Commission: 

A very important private business requiring me out of town. I beg leave to sub- 
mit you my case in writing. 

On January 1st, 1907, I was appointed permanent fourth class clerk in the 
Superintendent Railway Mail Service Branch at Quebec. Since my appointment I 
passed successfully Civil Service Qualifying Examinations. 

I very respectfully submit that these examinations and the law of 1903 (3 
Edward VJJ, Chapter 49, Section 6) entitle me to the third clerkship. Recently two 
clerks (fourth class) in the city post office have been promoted (in cases like mine) 
to third clerkship. 

Hoping that my demand will be granted, 

I remain respectfully, 

(Sgd.) ARTHUR JOBIN. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 929 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 



Quebec, September 19. 1907. 

Messrs. Louis E. Simard and J. P. Marineau appeared on behalf of the railway 

mail clerks. 

Mr. Simard was sworn and examined. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. You have been in the service since 1885? — A. Yes. 

Q. Twenty-two years on the first of next month? — A. Yes. 

Q. What did you enter the service at ? — -A. I entered as a letter carrier, because 
I had no influence to get any higher. 

Q. When were you transferred to the railway mail service? — A. I could not say 
exactly. I was transferred to be assistant postmaster for a while and then went back. 
After a while I was made railway mail clerk. 

Q. You resigned your appointment and cmc back into another department? — 
A. Yes. I was first a letter carrier and then was appointed to -be a clerk in the 
inspector's office., and then by the recommendation of my superior I was transferred 
to the assistant postmastership; but everybody was against me and the pDsition was 
too hard for me and I resigned. Then I got back as a railway mail clerk. 

Q. Were you assistant postmaster? — -A. Yes, for eight months. 

Q. The same position as that of Mr. Caouette? — A. Yes. 

Q. What salary did you get?— A. $180 or $520, I forget which. I retained the 
same salary that I had. It was not of my own will that I was made assistant post- 
master : my superior wanted me to take the position. 

Q. Then, after a few months, you bieing in an unenviable position, you threw it 
up and went out ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Then you went back as a railway mail clerk? — A. Yes. 

Q. What line are you on? — A. The Intercolonial Railway. 

Q. How far do you go? — A. From Levis to Campbellton, 305 miles. 

Q. That is looked on as the best route? — A. Yes, but it is very hard on my health. 

Q. You go at five o'clock in the evening? — A. Yes. 

Q. And come back when? — A. At one o'clock the following afternoon, after 
being about twenty-one hours on duty. 

Q. Then you are off for a couple of days before you are put on again? — A. That 
is not always the case. Sometimes it will be the following day, and sometimes two 
days will intervene. 

Q. You say that occasionally you are sent back on the same day that you return? 
— A. Very seldom. It occurred to me, I think, only once. 

Q. How long have you been on this Campbellton route ? — A. About seven years. 

Q. For seven years doing this twenty-one hours' work at a stretch about every 
third day? — A. The average would be closer than that, I think. The average, I think, 
would be two and a half or two and one-third trips every week for the seven years. 

Q. About five times every two weeks ? — A. Yes ; Sundays and week days the same. 

Q. That route is looked tipon. on account of the mileage, as about the most 
remunerative in this district? — A. Yes, but it is the hardest on the health. 

Q. You have found. I presume, that this strain for seven years has affected your 
health?— A. Certainly. 

Q. Do you find your sleep broken and your nerves shattered? — A. Yes. There 
could be no greater strain on my nerves. Sometimes I fall asleep for one or two 
minutes, because it is so hard for me to keep awake at night. 

29a— 59 



930 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. What accommodation have you in the mail car ? — A. There is a couch, but I 
cannot use it. Sometimes there are mail bags around it. 

Q. You ha\e a stool to sit on ? — A. Sometimes, but not always. T^cre should 
be some kind of a seat. 

Q. The mail car is next to the engine ? — A. Yes. 

Q. In that position it has increased vibration ? — A. Yes, and the smoke is very 
troublesome. 

Q. When the train stops at a station you take the mail on board and throw out 
the mail for that point ? — A. Yes. 

Q. And you have to face all. kinds of weather winter and summer ?— A. Yes. 

Q. Frequently you have not time to put on your overcoat ? — A. We never do, 
and we work all the time between stations. 

Q. What is the first station after leaving Levis ? — A. In the summer time it is 
St. Charles, fifteen miles from Levis. 

Q. You get a bag from St. Charles ?— A. Two bags. 

Q. You have to open these bags ? — A. Y"es. 

Q. There may be letters from Fraserville ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Between stations you are constantly sorting? — A. Certainly. We are working 
all the time. 

Q. Did you ever, in your experience, except in your own case, find a man who 
entered the service as a railway mail clerk getting into any other branch of the ser- 
vice ? — A. I do not happen to think of any. 

Q. Do you think it would be advantageous if there could be a change of position 
sometimes, so that you would be six months on the road, six months in the post 
office, another six months in the inspector's office, and so on ? — A. I do not think so. 

Q. Do you know that that is the custom in England I — A. Xo, I am not aware of 
that. 

Q. Then the general result is that once a railway mail clerk, always a railway 
mail clerk \ — A. As a general rule, as far as I know. 

Q. With all this nerve destroying work, does it not naturally follow that as you 
grow older you are not as. efficient as when you began ? — A. Naturally. 

Q. Have you a case examination every year ? — A. Yes. 

Q. If on the case examination you have been up all night and are not feeling your- 
self, and you fail to pass, you lose your annual increment ? — A. We do ; but they 
do not usually take us for examination just after arriving. 

Q. They give you a little time to rest before the examination ? — A. Yes. 

Q. I suppose the runs are pretty equal all over the Dominion ? — A. There are 
longer runs in some districts than in others. 

Q. Take one district with another, the average would be about the same ? — A. 
I suppose so. I never considered that. 

Q. Probably the department, in laying out these routes, took everything into con- 
sideration, and tried to make them as equal as possible ? — A. I think so. 

Q. Is there anything particular to this district that you would like to tell us ? — 
A. We would be pleased if there were more clerks in this district. Instead of having 
two and a half and sometimes three trips in a week, if we had an average of two 
trips a week, it would be better for our health. 

Q. You think that instead of having five trips a fortnight, it would be desirable 
to have the staff of the railway mail clerks increased so that you would have only four 
trips in a fortnight ? — A. Yes. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 
Q. Has it ever occurred to you that the Government should adopt some regula- 
tions or specifications for the kind of postal car that should be used by the railroads ? 
In other words, shouldn't there be a standard postal oar established? — A. Certainly 
it would be well if the cars were larger and more suitable. I think the Government 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 931 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

should have interfered with the cars used on the Atlantic and Lake Superior railway. 
There was not a place where a man could wash. 

Q. Has the Government taken any trouble whatever to see to the comfort of the 
men they employ for this purpose ? — A. I will not say they have taken no trouble, 
but they might have done more. 

Q. They leave the railways to do pretty much what they like in that matter ? — 
A. Pretty much. We have prepared a memorial in regard to certain matters which 
we want to bring before you. (Memorial read and filed.) 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Four years ago Sir William Mulock made a revision of the salaries ? — A. Yes. 

Q. According to your statement the cost of commodities has increased another 
thirty per cent since that time, and therefore you consider that the limits then laid 
down should be revised now '. — A. Yes. 

Q. Is there anything else you wish to say? — A. There are many other things 
that we should ask for, but the main points are mentioned in the memorial. Some 
would like to have the old Superannuation Act restored, and some would like to have 
the maximum pension paid after twenty-five years service. Some hold that clerks 
who have served fifteen years should get their maximum salary at once. But we 
have given you the main points in the memorial. 

Q. If you and Mr. Martineau should think of anything else on which it would 
be desirable that we should have information, we shall be glad to have it from you 
in a supplementary memorandum. 



Quebec, September 19, 1907. 

To Messrs. the Commissioners for the readjustment of the salaries, &c, &c, of the 
Civil Service employees : 

Gentlemen, — In April, 1903, the railway mail clerks laid before the Hon. Mr. 
Mulock, then Postmaster General, a memorial showing the increased cost of living, 
as inferred from the comparison between the value of the actual necessities of life in 
1896, and the value of the same articles in 1903. The average difference was shown 
to be TO per cent. 

The memorial also represented the extra hazardous risk of life and limb, together 
with the mental and physical strain sustained by train employees, <£c. &c. 

The petition was so well made up that in October, 1906, in their interview with 
the present Postmaster General, the Hon. Mr. Lemieux, the railway mail clerks in 
delegation could not keep from quoting from it and we think it well to supply you 
with a copy of the memorial. We beg of you to be so kind as to go through it. 

We will also, as in October last, represent that the superannuation having been 
abolished for the new employees, there is a greater need of a salary enabling a mail 
clerk to make provision for old age or when the time comes that he can work no longer. 

But the main argument which we want, to-day, fully to develop is the increased 
cost of living. This will easily explain why, notwithstanding the new scale of salaries 
granted by the Hon. Mr. Mulock in 1903, we are forced to ask for more, i.e., a yearly 
increase of $100. instead of an annual increase of $50, and a maximum salary of 
$1,500 instead of $1,200, as per the Hon. Mr. Mulock's arrangement. The following 
is a list of the prices of the necessities of life in March, 1907, as compared with the 
prices in March, 1903. 

Before preparing this statement, we have consulted the Semaine Commerciale of 
March, 1903 and March, 1907. Mr. Villeneuve, chief buyer for the Z. Paquet's firm, 
Messrs. Jobin & Pochette, shoe manufacturers, Mr. Boulet, meat dealer. Messrs. L. 

29a— 594 



932 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 



7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Boivin and J. DeVarennes, joiners and contractors, all of Quebec, and we quote exactly 
the answers obtained in each case. 



Name of Article. 


Price 
in March, 1903. 


Price 
in March, 1907. 

$ cts. 

20 

30 

9 50 per 100 lb. 
9 50 


Remarks. 


Increase. 


MilK 

Eggs 

Pork 


8 cts. 

(i 1(5 

19 .. 

8 50 per 100 lb. 

7 50 

9 00 

8 50 

22... :. ... 
6 25 per 100 lb. 

14 




Per cent. 

25 
57 
12 


Beef 




26 


Veal 


Hi 00 




11 




10 00 




18 


Butter 


ii 27 




23 


Fish 

Bread 


7 00 per 100 lb. 

18 




12 

._. s , 


Clothes 

Shoes 






Mr. Villeneuve statement J 

Jobin & Rochette statement . . . 


from 20 

to 25 

15 


Rubber overshoes 


6 80 

8 00 

"> ( ">( i i >er cord . . 
(i 60 

75 per day . . . 
5 00 per month. 


95 

10 00 


19 

25 


1 
Charwomen 


(> 30 per cord 
131 


For cutting and chopping that 


116 

33 


Servant sfirl 


8 00 per month. 




GO 







We fully appreciate the trouble which the Hon. Mr. Mulock took to ameliorate 
our condition, by abolishing the system of three classes of salary, and by raising to 
$1,200 the maximum salary which was formerly of $960. But, if, as per figures just 
brought out, the cost of living has doubled since 1896, can we possibly say that ' all ' 
has been done towards ameliorating our condition, and that we are satisfied with our 
present salary? Can there be any exaggeration in our appeal for an annual increase 
of $100 instead of $50, and for a maximum salary of $1,500 instead of $1,200, when 
the cost of living has gone up so high and is continually raising so fast ? 

You will, no doubt, on considering our claim, come to the .same conclusion as our 
Honourable Postmaster General, who told to our delegates, in Montreal, in October 
last, that our demands were reasonable. 

We remain, gentlemen, 

Your most respectful servants, 

L. EUG. SIMARD. 
F. P. MARLNEAU, 
Railway Mail Clerks Representing the Quebec District. 



MEMORIAL OF THE RAILWAY MAIL CLERKS OF CANADA, TOGETHER 
WITH THE ARGUMENT ADDUCED IN ITS SUPPORT BEFORE THE 
HON. THE POSTMASTER GENERAL, AT OTTAWA, ON THE 22xd 
APRIL, 1903. 

To the Honourable Sir William Mulock, K.C.M.G., 
Postmaster General of Canada. 

The petition of the undersigned Railway Mail Clerks of Canada ( District), 

Humbly showeth : — 

1. That the salaries provided by statute for the remuneration of the railway mail 
clerks of Canada have not been advanced for nearly half a century, and that owing 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 933 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

to the increased cost of living, which has steadily kept pace with the rapidly growing 
prosperity and development of our country during recent years, your petitioners find 
their salaries no longer adequate to meet the new conditions by which they are sur- 
rounded. 

2. That the banking, industrial and railway institutions of our country have all 
fully recognized the difficulties which their employees experienced in sustaining them- 
selves upon their old time salaries, and, in consequence, have largely augmented these 
salaries. 

3. That we consider this a most opportune moment to approach you for a measure 
of relief, as notwithstanding the great reduction which you were pleased to make in 
our domestic and imperial letter postage, the revenue of the Post Office Department 
hjas this year exceeded the expenditure for the first time in the history of Canada. 

4. That the enormous increase in mail matter to be handled by postal employees 
during the past five years, represented by the constantly increasing revenue of your 
department, is unprecedented, and the railway postal service being the great arteries 
of our postal system, it necessarily follows that a very large proportion of this ever- 
growing volumte of work devolves upon the railway mail services, rendering the life 
of railway mail clerks one of arduous and continuous toil. 

5. That unlike the Post Office Department, all railway and express companies, 
realizing the extra hazardous risk of life and limb, together with the mental and phy- 
sical strain sustained by train employees, have provided a greater remuneration for 
those employees than for men of similar capacity engaged in office or other less 
arduous work. 

6. That while it would not be modest or proper for us to dilate upon the merits 
of the railway mail service, we cannot refrain from quoting in our behalf the follow- 
ing excerpt, taken from an article which appeared some years ago in the Scribner 
Magazine over the signature of so eminent an authority as Thomas L. James, ex- 
Postmaster General of the United States : — 

' There is no position in the Government more exacting than that of a postal 
clerk, and none that has so many requirements. He must not only be sound " in wind 
and limb," but possessed of more than ordinary intelligence and a retentive memory. 
His work is constant, and his only recreation study. He must not only be proficient 
in his immediate work, but he must have a general knowledge of the entire country, 
so that the correspondence he handles shall reach its destination at the earliest possible 
moment. He must know no night and no day. He must be impervious to heat or 
cold. .Hushing along at the rate of forty or fifty miles an hour, in charge of that 
which is sacred— the correspondence of the people — catching his meals as he may ; at 
home only semi-occasionally, the wonder is that men competent to discharge the duties 
of so high a calling can be found for so small a compensation. They have to take the 
extra hazardous risks of their toilsome duties. There are no public offices which are 
so emphatically " public trusts " as those whose duties comprise that of handling the 
correspondence of the people, because upon the proper and skilful performance of that 
duty depends — to a far greater degree than in the case of any other function accom- 
plished through Government agency — the business and social welfare of the entire 
community.' 

Your petitioners therefore respectfully pray that you will be pleased to grant such 
an increase to their salaries as you in your wisdom deem adequate and just. 

And your petitioners will ever pray. 

ARGUMENT. 

In presenting this petition we desire to submit argument in support of each clause 
in the order which they occur. We will not trouble you with a comparison of values 
at the present time with a period so remote as 1857 — the year the schedule of salaries, 
still in use, for railway mail clerks was adopted — suffice it to say. that a comparison 



934 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7 2 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

of conditions then with the present, must convince the most sceptical that a fair 
salary in 1857, would to-day scarcely afford a bare subsistence; but we propose to ad- 
duce argument based upon the value of the actual necessities of life in 1896, the year 
you became the honoured head of our department, and the values of to-day. The 
following list of values is taken from the Toronto Daily Globe of March 16, 1896, and 
comparisons made with the values of the corresponding data of the present year: — 



1896. 1907. Increase. 



Cwt. 


Per Cent. 


8 S 50 


69 


7 50 


25 


9 00 


38 


11 25 


96 


8 50 


79 


22 


47 


12 


50 


7 50 


58 


1 20 


166 



Cwt. 

Pork S 4 80 

Beef 6 00 

Veal ll 50 

Lamb 5 75 

Mutton 4 75 

Butter 16 

Cheese 08 

Coal 4 7 "> 

Potatoes...... 45 

In the matter of house rent, we are informed by real estate agents and brokers 
whom we have interviewed, that while the rental value of all desirable properties in 
Toronto have advanced from 20 to 25 per cent since 1896, yet the class of houses re- 
quired by men of small means, i.e., houses containing from seven to nine rooms, 
owing to the extraordinary demand of late for such properties have advanced fully 
35 or 40 per cent. 

From this comparison we find that a clerk to-day has to pay from $S0 to $120 per 
annum more than he did in 1896 for a house to shelter his family, the cost of his 
fuel has advanced by nearly 60 per cent, and everything that he consumes in fact has 
advanced from 25 to 50 per cent since 1896. Surely then he cannot be accused of in- 
dulging in any flight of fancy or exaggeration of language when he claims that his 
salary is inadequate to meet these conditions. 

2. With regard to the second clause, we would say that the accuracy of the state- 
ment therein set forth is too well known to require proof or argument, and we pass it 
over by simply referring you to the Grand Trunk Railway, the Canadian Pacific 
Railway, the Dominion Express Company, the Canadian Express Company, the Mont- 
real Bank, the Quebec Bank, or to any other employer of labour. 

3. It is certainly a matter of congratulation to every official in your department, 
as well as to every patriotic Canadian, to find that while the enlightened and progres- 
sive policy which you inaugurated in 1898 — in establishing what is familiarly known 
as the imperial penny postage and the reduction of our domestic postage by one- 
third — caused for a time a great reduction in the revenues of the Post Office Depart- 
ment, yet that revenue, keeping pace with the commercial and industrial development 
of this Canada of ours, has in the short interval of four years not only made up these 
losses, but is now some $360,000 in excess of the revenue of 1898, and for the first 
time in history shows a balance on the right side of the public ledger. To this happy 
condition of affairs we are largely indebted to your genius and administrative ability, 
and we take this, the first opportunity afforded us for a personal interview, to con- 
gratulate you in the name of the railway mail clerks whom we represent, on the im- 
perial recognition and honours which your great talents have attained. Heretofore, 
petitions from the railway mail clerks for a betterment of their position were invari- 
ably met by the apparently insuperable barrier of an annual deficit in the department, 
running up into the hundreds of thousands of dollars, and the Postmaster General 
of the day found himself unable to do more than express sympathy with the object of 
our petitions, and promise material aid when the departmental deficit could be cut 
down. That day has happily arrived. We have waited long and we have waited pa- 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 935 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

tiently, buoyed up with the hope that when the finances of your department would 
permit you would come to our relief. 

4. In support of this clause we must crave your indulgence while we quote figures 
which are already familiar to you: — 



No. of post offices . . . 

No. of letters 

No. registered letters . 

No. postal cards 

No. free letters 

Revenue 



Salaries (supts., R.M. clerks and transfer agents). 
No. of mail clerks 



Distance travelled in miles by postal cars daily. 



1896. 


1902. 


Increase. 


9,103 

116,028,000 

3,505,500 

24,794,800 

4,808,800 

2,964,014 


9 958 

213,628[bob 

4,973,000 

26,343,000 

7,411,000 

3,888,126 


805 

97,600,000 

1,367,505 

1,548,200 

2,505,200 

924,112 

Decrease. 


$ 301,118 51 


$ 298,148 31 


$ 2,970 02 


389 


384 


5 

Increase. 


28,654 


35,000 


6,346 



While a large proportion of the work represented by these unprecedented increases 
has perforce fallen upon the railway mail service, yet a glance at your last annual 
report will reveal some startling features. The report shows, that notwithstanding 
the enormous increase in the quantity of mail matter to be handled by the railway 
mail service, and the fact that the number of miles travelled by postal cars is to-day 
6,346 miles daily in excess of 1896 — equal to 5,200 miles of travel annually for every 
mail clerk in Canada — there were five fewer clerks in the service in 1892 than there 
were in 1896, while the remuneration in the way of salaries has decreased during that 
period by $2,970.02. 

5. In support of this clause, we beg to refer you to the schedule of salaries paid 
by any of our great railway corporations to their conductors and trainmen, with the 
rate of pay allowed station agents, telegraph operators, &c, whose occupations are 
less hazardous and involve less physical and mental strain. You will there find that 
an exception has been made in every case in favour of the traiiunen to the extent of 
from 25 to 40 per cent. This rule is ignored, however, in the Civil Service of Canada, 
where the railway mail service is beyond doubt the poorest paid branch in the public 
service. Let us just for a moment make a comparison of the average salaries paid 
the railway mail service (Toronto district) with the average salaries paid the clerks 
in .the following city post offices: — 







1st Class. 


2nd Class. 


3rd Class. 






Toronto 

Hamilton . . 




1,450 
1,500 


1,170 
1,190 
1,120 
1,150 

780 


715 

7 f •) 


London 




755 


Kingston . . . 






760 


Railway mail 




960 


498 









936 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

We find the railway mail service discriminated against to the extent of $500 for 
first-class, $400 for second-class and $250 for third-class, and were we to make a 
comparison with the inside service the discrimination against the railway mail ser- 
vice would appear even more glaring and unjust. Why should this be? On entering 
the service a railway mail clerk is required to possess the same educational qualifica- 
tions as his confrere in a city post office or the inside service, and unlike those gen- 
tlemen he must every- twelve months pass a stiff examination in his official duties, 
and in order to qualify at all for promotion, must make as high as 90 per cent at 
these examinations, besides the nature of his employment demands the exercise of 
superior strength and stamina. Without at all claiming to be a superior class of men 
to the clerks of city post offices or the inside service, we do claim that the difficulties 
and dangers by which we are surrounded while engaged in our work demands superior 
qualifications to either of these branches, and entitles us to a higher remuneration 
for our services. Let us compare our duties with the duties in the city post office: — 
The work in the city post office is carried on in well lighted and well ventilated rooms, 
it admits of a division of labour; one clerk takes charge of the registered matter, a 
second assorts letters, the newspapers are assorted by a third, while a forth clerk per- 
haps looks after the receipt and dispatch of the mails, thus confusion and liability 
error, inseparable from hastily turning from one class of work to another is avoided ; 
not so, however, with the railway mail service, where one clerk carries on all these 
duties, often alone amid the tumult and disorder of a rapidly moving train, the air 
of the car vitiated by the burning of lamps, or reeking with smoke and dust. He 
has to accustom himself to carrying on his work in postal cars of various sizes and 
designs, gotten up without regard to the requirements of his route and changed from 
time to time without notice, to suit the convenience or caprice of the railway officials. 

Should an emergency or difficulty occur in a city post office a clerk has the advan- 
tage of being able to consult an immediate superior on the spot and avoiding respon- 
sibility for action taken, but a railway mail clerk has to think and act for himself, 
as in case of an accident or detention of his train a decision must be made at once 
without assistance from any one, and while out of reach of 'orders.' When failing 
to connect with other trains he must be able without hesitation to make such dis- 
position of his mails as they may be forwarded with the least possible delay, and this 
Can only be done by a thorough familiarity with the train and stage service at all 
points of connection along his route, united with coolness, accuracy and self-confi- 
dence in the performance of his work. 

It is often urged that a railway mail clerk enjoys advantages in the way of short 
hours on duty, &c. This impression is heightened by seeing him frequently off duty. 
with apparently nothing to do. We have here a memorandum compiled from the 
railway mail clerks' journal of duty for the Toronto district, and showing the actual 
number of hours of duty performed daily by the railway mail clerks residing in 
Toronto during the first five weeks of the present year; this memorandum shows 
that during the period named cadi clerk performed daily an average of 6*2 hours of 
day and 2-5 hours o"f night duty, making an average of eight hours and 40 minutes 
for each working day. This will, we think, effectually answer the popular supposition 
that a mail clerk is only on duty a few hours daily. 

Again it is said, that the mileage allowances to the railway mail clerk fully com- 
pensate him for the smallness of his salary. Let us for a moment examine this state- 
ment : Take the Toronto district where the average mileage for each clerk is about 
•$240 per annum, and we find that each clerk has to pay out a large proportion of this 
sum for meals, sleeping accommodations, &c, during his absence from home on duty, 
add to this the increased expenses inseparable from such a manner of living, and we 
find but a small pittance left to compensate him for the inconvenience and irregularity 
of his life to say nothing of the ever present risk of life and limb to which he is 
exposed on duty. The latter feature should in no way be minimized or treated lightly 
as something which exists in theory alone. The deplorable frequency of railway acci- 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 937 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

dents of late in our own country affords ample ground for apprehension in this respect. 
On the 2nd instant the honourable the Minister of Railways stated from his seat in 
parliament, that since last October or within five months there had been in Canada 
142 separate and distinct raliway accidents, and in these 179 lives were lost. Indeed 
in Toronto we have the most melancholy evidences of the hazardousness of a railway 
mail clerk's life, we have seen within the past few years, death, mutilation, deformity 
and insanity result to railway mail clerks from injuries received whilst on duty. The 
Congress of the United States has recognized this feature in a railway mail clerk's 
life and to mark its appreciation of the dangers to which he is exposed it has enacted 
the following legislation, as outlined in a despatch to the Buffalo Express of the 21st 
March, 1903 : 

' Washington, D.C., March 20. — Congress, after much hesitation on the subject, 
has at last granted a lump sum of $1,000 to the family of every railway mail clerk 
killed in the line of duty. The law will extend its first benefits to those who lose their 
lives during the present year, and from this time on will bestow an equivalent of 
pension, small though it be, upon the widows and children of a class of Uncle Sam's 
employees which is exposed to extraordinary perils. Indeed, there are no other Gov- 
ernment servants (barring soldiers and sailors in war time, perhaps) whose occupa- 
tion is nearly so dangerous. 

There is no other occupation in the world that is so perilous as that of the rail- 
way mail clerks. They number about 9,000 and ordinarily they get something like 
$1,200 a year, though their pay varies somewhat with length of service. It is not 
much, considering the fact that they are constantly exposed to chances of death. 
During the last year, which broke the record for casualties, they were mixed^ up in 
901 accidents on the rail. Nine of them were killed, 88 of them Avere seriously in- 
jured, and 302 of them were slightly injured. This record was nothing extraordinary, 
however. In 1901 mail clerks were caught in 825 accidents, in which seven were 
killed, 63 seriously, and 229 slightly wounded.' 

To summarize, we have endeavoured in the foregoing argument to convince you : 
That, our Petition is not the outcome of a mercenary or unworthy spirit, but that it 
is the logical sequence of conditions over which we have no control. That other em- 
ployers of labour have recognized these conditions and made generous provisions to 
alleviate the burdens which they entaiJ. That a deficit no longer remains in the Post 
Office Department to act as an obstacle to the increase of salaries. That while the 
work of the Royal Mail Service has greatly increased, its numbers have been decreased 
and its remuneration lessened since 1896, and finally, that all things considered, the 
Royal ;Mail Service is the hardest worked and poorest' paid branch of the public service 
in Canada. 

We have not endeavoured to enlist public opinion in our behalf, or to form a union 
or organization among ourselves to promote our interests, but dutifully and as in 
honour bound we appear before you, armed only with the justice of our cause, and the 
confidence we feel in your honour and integrity. We therefore, in the words of our 
petition respectfully pray you to grant such an increase to our present salaries, as you 
in your wisdom deem adequate and just. 



938 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII.. A. 1908 



Quebec, Friday, September 20, 1907. 

Present : — Mr. J. M. Courtney, C.M.G., Chairman. 
Mr. Thomas Fyshe, Montreal, and 
Mr. P. J. Bazdc, Quebec. 

The Commision met at 10.30 a.m. 

Mr. Wilfrid Albert Boulet, sworn and examined : — 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Tou are the superintendent of letter carriers ? — A. Yes. 

Q. How long- have you been superintendent ? — A. 12 years. 

Q. Tou have been in the service 23 years and over ( — A. Yes. 

Q. In the first part of your service you were a letter carrier ? — A. Yes, a letter 
carrier during 13 years. 

Q. And then you became the superintendent ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Don't you give the letter carriers bags to put their letters in ? — A. Yes, every 
one has a bag. 

Q. Some of those I saw this morning coming to the office were without bags? — 
A. Some prefer to take no bag. They say they can get on quicker without a bag- 

Q. Is it not likely that they would lose letters if they have no bags ? — A. There 
are straps for letters. Generally bags are for newspapers. 

Q. And for letters also ? — A. When there is room. But we have so many news- 
papers to deliver that there is not room in the bag for the letters. 

Q. Would it not be better for them to carry the letters in their bags ? — A. I will 
give instructions with regard to that. 

Q. What, is your salary ?— A. $800. 

Q. How long have you been paid $S00 ? — A. During the time I have been super- 
intendent. 

Q. You have been superintendent 12 years ?— A. Since 1896 — 11 years. 

Q. And you have had no increase of pay during that time '. — A. No. Thalt 
salary is fixed. 

Q. However the cost of living goes up, you cannot under the schedule get any 
mone salary ? — A. No. 

Q. As superintendent you wear no uniform ? — A. No. 

Q. A letter carrier at $2.25 a day. with his uniform, his boots and his great coat, 
is paid as much as you are '( — A. Yes, and he has Sunday pay. Some of them get 
more than I do. 

Q. Then the superintendent gets less salary than some of the carriers working in 
the district ? — A. That is true. 

Q. Have you a petition '(— A. Yes. (Petition read and filed.) 

Q. You think that in your position you should be paid at the rate of $1,000 a 
year or more ? — A. If the others are increased I want to be increased also. 

Q. What are your office hours ? — A. I begin at half-past six in the morning and 
finish at five in the afternoon. 

Q. When do you go to your dinner ? — A. From eleven to one or half-past one. 

Q. You have pretty nearly the same hours as the letter carriers ? — A. I am always 
there during the time the letter carriers are on duty. 

Q. Have you anything to add about your office which you think we ought to 
know I — A. No. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 939 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Bureau de Poste, 

Quebec, 18 septembre 1907. 
A Messieurs les membres de la 

Commission Eoyale du Service Civil. 

Messieurs, — J'ai 1'honneur de vous soumettre humblement que la iwsition de chef 
des facteurs est une des positions les plus responsables dans le departement des postes; 
a part celle de surintendent des commis. nul autre ne peu l'egaler. D'abord il a la 
surveillance des facteurs, voir a ce que les divisions soient a peu pres egales, il a a repon- 
dre a toutes les plaintes de citoyens soit pour le retard des malles ou du mauvais ser- 
vice d'un ou plusieurs facteurs, en un mot a tout ce qui regards la distribution de 
la ville en generale et le soins des lettres enregistrees qui sont destinees aux facteurs. 

Lors de ma nomination comme chef, je recevais deux cents piastres de plus qu'eux. 
Depuis quelques annees, par un bill passe a cet effet, les facteurs regoivent plus qu'autre- 
fois, plusieurs gagnent meme plus que leur chef; je vous demanderai un simple acte 
de justice, c'est-a-dire que quel que soit le montant qui sera accorde aux facteurs, 
qu'il soit donne deux cents piastres de plus an surintendent comme autrefois. 

Votre tres humble serviteur, 

(Signe) ALBERT BOULET, 

Surintendant. 



Quebec, September 19, 1907. 

The Royal Commission on the Civil Service met this morning at 10.30 o'clock. 

Present : — Mr. J. M. Courtney, C.M.G.. Chairman. 
Mr. Thomas Fyshe, Montreal, and 
Mr. P. J. Bazix, Quebec. 

Messrs D. L, Auge and Jules Pelletier, appeared on behalf of the letter carriers 
of Quebec. 

Mr. Auge, being sworn, submitted a memorandum, which was read and filed. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. In Quebec, I presume, every letter carrier has to understand both languages ? 
— A. No, not at all. 

Q. I should have thought that in a city like this, where an English speaking 
man may live next door to a French Canadian it would be desirable at all events 
that a letter carrier should know both languages ? — A. Yes, but all the English 
speaking people understand French. 

Q. How many letter carriers are there in Quebec ? — A. About 27. 

Q. What time of the day do you begin work ? — A. At a quarter to seven .in the 
morning. On Monday morning we begin at half-past six, but on the other days at 
a quarter to seven. 

Q. When vou go to the post office, you begin by sorting out the letters ? — A. 
Yes. 

Q. When do you start on your rounds ? — A. At eight o'clock. 

Q. When do you return from your first round? — A. At about half-past ten. 

Q. After you complete your first round, do you go back to the post office with 
the undelivered letters ? — A. Yes, and for the second delivery. 



940 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CITIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. Haw loug are you in the post office after you have come back from your first 
round ? — A. Generally a quarter of an hour sorting letters, and then we start on our 
second round. 

Q. HaVe you to go back to the office after the second delivery ? — A. No, we go 
to dinner. 

Q. Do you take the undelivered letters to your house ? — A. We bring those letters 
to our home in our bag. 

Q. How long have you for dinner ? — A. Two hours. 

Q. After two o'clock do you go back to the post office I — A. Yes. 

Q. Have you then got a third round to do ? — A. Yes. 

Q. You have three rounds a day ? — A. Yes. 

Q. "When do you start on the third round ? — A. At half-past three. 

Q. When do you get back from that ? — A. At half-past five. 

Q. Do you then bring all the undelivered letters back to the post, office ? — A. No, 
very generally there are none. 

Q. When the third round is finished, do you not go back to the post office with 
the undelivered letters ? — A. No. 

Q. Do you take those letters to your home ? — A. Yes. 

Q. What do you do with them after that \ — A. We deliver them the next morning. 

Mr. Pelletber. — After we finish our first round the number of letters that re- 
main on hand is very small. We have them on hand because the house to which they 
are addressed is closed or the person to whom they are addressed is not at home, or a 
letter may be for some other address. In this case we put the letter into a post office 
box on the street, and it goes back to the post office. If a house to which a letter is 
addressed is closed, we keep it till the morning and then deliver it- If I have a re- 
gistered letter on hand, I bring that back to the post office before going home. 

Q. Then practically your work on ordinary days begins at half-past six or a 
quarter to seven and with the exception of two hours for your dinner you are working 
t/ill six o'clock at night, 

Mr. Pelletier. — Yes. 

Q. In winter time longer ? — A. Yes, a great deal longer. 

Q. How much longer do you work in winter than in summer ? — A. About two 
hours a day longer. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 
Q. Is that owing to the difficulty of walking ? — A. It is on account of the trains 
being late, the greater amount of darkness, the roads and everything else. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Then, in summer the day's work is about nine and a half hours, and in winter 
about eleven and a half hours ? — A. Yes. 

Q. How many uniforms do you get a year ? 

Mr. Auge. — We have a summer uniform complete every spring, winter pants 
every fall and a winter tunic every two years. 

Q. In the spring they give you a suit, and in the autumn every two years they 
give you a winter overcoat ? — A. Yes, every two years. 

Q. And a fur cap ? — A. Yes, every two years. 

Q. And how about boots ? — A. Two pairs of boots. 

Q. Have you also street car tickets ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Are any letter carriers now employed in the post office as clerks ? — A. Yes, 
some. 

Mr. Pelletier was here sworn, and examined. 

By the Chairman : 
Q. Are any letter carriers now employed in this post office building doing clerks' 
work I — A. Yes. there are several of them doing- clerk's work. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 911 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. How many ? — A. Five or six. 

Q. They get no uniforms, I suppose ? — A- Some have and some have not. 

Q. They lose the street ear privilege if they have no uniforms? — A. Yes. 

Q. They do not get the clerks' .salaries ? — A. No. 

Q. Then, although they are doing work of a higher class, they lose in point of 
uniforms and the street car privileges I — A. Yes. 

Q. They have less wage and a higher class of work ? — A. Yes. I was em] 
myself inside, and I discontinued there, because I was losing money. 

Q. The highest pay a letter carrier gets is $2.25 a day ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Is that paid for every day in the week, including Sundays ? — A. No, for six 
days only. 

Q. There is such a thing as Sunday work ? 

Mr. Auge. — Very little. 

Q. As a rule, the pay is .$2.25 for six days of the week — A. Yes. 

Q. That is about $700 a year?— A. Yes. 

Q. What leave of absence do you get during the year ? — A. Twelve days. 

Q. If you are sick, you have either to take the time you are absent out of your 
leave of absence or have your pay deducted ? — A. Yes. We are not paid while sick. 

Q. There are Christmas boxes, I suppose ? — A. In some wards. Pretty few in 
Quebec. 

Q. What is your beat ? — A. In a commercial district. 

Q- Would it be possible that you might be taken away from that district just a 
week before Christmas and sent somewhere else? — A. It could be done if the post- 
master chose, but I do not think it would be done. 

Mr. Pelletier. — That happened to me last year. 

Q. What is your district? — A. Ann street, Ursula street and the Esplanade. A 
man fell sick inside, and they took another man to replace him. I was the only one 
who knew this man's route, and they put me on his route. Christmas was approach- 
ing, when I used to receive $12 or $15. I was anxious to have that, and I asked to be 
allowed to go back to the same route. They replied that they could not allow me be- 
cause that was the busiest time of the year, and I went to my ward on Christmas eve. 
The other man decided to go out, and they found another man to take his place in- 
side. That may happen often, because if you make a mistake or if a man complains 
twice, another man may be put on that round. Sometimes it is not our fault. Any- 
body may make a mistake. We generally do our best, and we are not likely to do 
better on another round than we do on the one we know best. This is done as a 
punishment. 

Q. There is a superintendent of letter carriers— Mr. Boulet?— A. Yes. 

Q. Is it his duty to divide the city into districts and assign them to the letter 
carriers? — A. Yes; but he does not employ all his time for that now. 

. Q. As you are exposed to all kinds of weather, I suppose it requires a very strong 
man to be a letter carrier?- — A. Yes. 

Q. Do the letter carriers frequently get sick? — A. Sometimes. 

Q. Are they a long-lived race of men? I see that one letter carrier is 65 and 
another 66. That is rather unusual, is it not? — A. There are two pretty good men 
who are old — Mr. Desroches and Mr. Guay. 

Q. What about Mr. Legare? — A. He has been there fifteen years. 

Q. When he was appointed he was over fifty years of age? — A. Yes. 

Q. I see that Mr. Guay has been twenty-eight years a letter carrier ; in your ex- 
perience has a letter carrier been made a clerk? — A. Yes; Mr. U. Vezina. 

Q. He began as a letter carrier ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Then he became a clerk, which was before the days of examinations?— A. Yes. 
He was employed inside first as superintendent of letter carriers, and then he was 
made a clerk. 



942 ROYAL COKMISSIOX ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. He is the only man in your knowledge in Quebec who has gone from the grade 
of letter carrier to become a clerk ? — A. There is another one — Mr. Wilkinson. 
Q. But as a rule once a letter carrier always a letter carrier? — A. Yes. 
Q. And the promotions are so rare that they can hardly be counted? — A. Yes. I 
have passed the qualifying examination, so has Mr. Auge, but we cannot have any 
place in the post office unless we have much influence. 

Q. Even if there is influence it is the practice to keep letter carriers as letter 
carriers? — A. Yes. 

Q. Have either of you got your life insured? — A. We have a letter carrier's as- 
sociation. 

Q. Do you pay a high premium on account of exposure to weather? — A. No, it is 
the usual rate. 

Q. Your life is one of constant exposure to the weather — rain or sleet, or snow, 
or anything else? — A. Yes. 

Q. You do not find, in insuring your lives that this exposure has any effect on 
the rates of insurance you pay? — A. Yes. We have been insured in the accident com- 
panies, and they charge us more than those who work inside because we are more ex- 
posed to accident. 

Q. The insurance companies think that your occupation is more dangerous than 
the ordinary occupations of civil life? — A. Yes. 

Q. Then it comes to this, that you are hampered with this disability, that once a 
letter carrier you remain a letter carrier, you have to pay more for your accident in- 
surance, and you are working from nine and a half to twelve hours a day according 
to the season of the year? — A. Yes. 

Q. Have you anything else to submit? — A. Yes, I have prepared a memorandum 
showing the expenses of living. (Memorandum read and filed). I live outside of the 
city, and I walk to my work every morning, in order to get my house at the rent I 
Pay. 

Q. How long does it take you to go to your work ? — A. Thirty or thirty-five 
minutes. This year I could not buy one dress for my wife, my children are not 
clothed properly for the summer, and I myself got no clothes at all. 

Q. In order to get your house at $7.50 a month you have to add two hours a day 
to your work in walking to and from your home? — A. Yes. I have insurance, but I 
could not pay my insurance this month, because we have fewer days' work this month, 
pud the insurance has lapsed. 

Q. Have you anything further to say? — A. I was appointed in 1893, and I was 
six years at $1 a day. As I could not live on what I got I contracted debts. One of 
my creditors wrote to the Postmaster General asking to be paid his money. The Post- 
master General, when in Quebec some time ago said to me, You have not paid Mr. 
"So and So. The creditor had sued me and got an execution. I told the Postmaster 
General that I could not pay that man because I had to live and keep my family. I 
promised to pay $2 the next month, but another man will lose that $2, because I can- 
not take it out of my expenses. As we say, I can only stop a hole by making another 
leak. 

Q. Has any member of your body lately been arrested for theft? — A. No, not 
lately. 

Q. There have been some arrests for theft in the past? — A. Yes. 

Q. They are detected, I suppose, by a system of decoy letters? — A. Yes. 

Q. Why do you two gentlemen continue as letter carriers? Why don't you go out? 

Mr. Auge. — Because, having been fifteen years in the service, we are not fitted for 
other work and we always expect better things. 

Q. Have you anything more to say? — A. I have a copy of a letter which Mayor 
Garneau wrote to the Minister last winter, representing that there were not sufficient 
letter carriers in Quebec. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 943 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 
Mr. Bazin : 
Q. What was the consequence? — A. The consequence was nothing at all. The 
letter gave the population of different cities in Canada and the number of letter car- 
riers. London, with 24,000 population, had 35 letter carriers; Hamilton, with 52,000 
population, had 47; Ottawa, with 57,000, had 47; Quebec, with 60,000, had 25. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Perhaps there are fewer letters here than in other places \ — A. Xo, there are 
not. The answer always is that the number of employees put on is according to the 
revenue of the post office. When, we ask for more men, we are told that the post office 
does not collect much money. 



MEMORIAL OF THE LETTER CARRIERS OE THE CITY OF QUEBEC, P.Q. 

To the Honourable the Royal Commission appointed to inquire into the condition and 
remuneration of the Civil Service of Canada. 

Gentlemen, — The letter carriers of Quebec respectfully submit their demands 
and ask you to plead their cause before the Honourable the Postmaster General so 
that justice may be done them. 

INCREASE IX THE SALARY OF LETTER CARRIERS — REASONS FOR THIS INCREASE. 

From the establishment of free delivery in cities during the last thirty years, the 
salary of letter carriers has remained stationary, whereas the cost of living has in- 
creased forty per cent in the meantime. 

At the present cost of living it is impossible for the letter carrier to keep out of 
debt and at the same time give his family the bare necessities of life; and, of all the 
employees in the Civil Service, his work is the most fatiguing, and unpleasant, on 
account of exposure to all the inclemencies of the weather; and, moreover he is not 
paid during illness, which is often brought on by this very exposure. 

Examine the salaries paid to all the employees in the Civil Service, and likewise 
those paid to the carriers, and it will be found that in all branches of the service 
whether at Ottawa or elsewhere, the carriers are the least paid and no others have 
more responsibility than they. 

Every day the carrier has to deliver registered letters and parcels of value reach- 
ing into the hundreds of dollars and for the safe delivery of which he is wholly re- 
sponsible. 

It will be seen that his duties are important, his work harder, and his hours longer 
than all the other employees; and for these reasons, he should receive at least the 
same treatment as the employees in other branches of the service, namely, the same 
salaries, the same number of holidays and his regular salary during sickness. 

Abolishing the distinction made between letter carriers and clerks. 

The work of the letter carrier being identical with that of the clerk, with the same 
responsibilities, yet more arduous in its accomplishment, and much longer hours, we 
ask and will continue to so ask until the salary of the letter carrier be placed on the 
same footing as that of a clerk. 

We appeal to the sentiment of justice of Your Honourable Commission to the 
difference of salary, the question of vacation, to the amounts paid during sickness to 
all other employees. Our work is fully as important, our responsibilities are on a par, 
our work is more arduous, our days are longer than those of other departments. We 
would ask, why this discrepancy? why this disparagement? 

We again ask and shall not cease asking, till we have equal salary, the same num- 
ber of holidays, and our wages during sickness. 



944 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 
THE AMERICAN POSTAL LAW. 

We respectfully draw your attention to the American Postal Law, which puts 
cL rkt and carriers on an equal footing. 

This is an ideal law, where the distinction between inside and outside clerks is 
abolished. The salary is equal in both cases; beginning with a minimum income of 
six hundred dollars per annum, an annual increase of one hundred dollars till the 
maximum of $1,200 is reached. 

We respectfully ask the Honourable Commission to draw the attention of the 
Honourable Postmaster General to this new American Postal Law, which, if adopted 
by the department, will give satisfaction to the carriers and to the postal clerks as 
well. 

We have the honour to be, gentlemen. 

THE LETTER CARRIERS, 

By D. L. Auge, Secretary. 



To the Gentlemen of the Civil Service Commission, 
Sitting at Quebec. 

Gentlemen, — The honour of representing the letter carriers of Quebec before this 
Commission was conferred upon me, to give you a statement of the grievances of our 
situation which I will do in the shortest way possible. 

I will begin by the salary question. Our actual salary is not a regular one; it 
depends on our health, of the accidents which might happen to us, of the misfortunes 
which might strike members of our family and require our absence from duty; in one 
word, it is to tell you that we are paid by the day at maximum salary of $2.25 a day. 
and a minimum of $1.25, and that all absences from duty are deducted from our 
salary. I specify the fact that we are the only permanent employees who are treated 
that way. 

Allow me to give you an example to show in what situation we are in when wfe are 
sick. An old letter-carrier, with 30 years service, Air. Victor Houde, after two months 
illness during which he was not paid, found himself in such a state of want that it 
was impossible for him to buy, not only the medicines prescribed by the doctor, but 
bread for his family who were in the utmost poverty. Seeing this we collected among 
us a small sum to allow him and family to live upon during a few days; and the poor 
fellow died leaving a large family, with the perspective that they had nothing to eat 
the next day. I could give many such cases not always known by the public but very 
cruel just the same. Since the Government has cut off our pay in sickness, death has 
taken alarming proportions among us, and the reason of it is that we are obliged to 
work when sick, so as to get bread for our children, and the result is that this year 
specially, more letter-carriers have died than in the two previous years. Not only our 
salary is not sufficient to allow us to put aside some money for rainy days, but even 
in not being absent from duty it is quite impossible to live without running into debt, 
and be the cause of loss of money to our purveyors. 

I will not speak about the increase of the cost of living, as you are quite aware 
of it ; I will only state what I pay for the living of my own family, although living 
in straightened circumstances, and I am sorry to say that every year I am obliged to 
go into debt to face the strictest expenses of my household. I would have at hteart to 
give my children a good instruction, but before they must eat, and then only 25 cents 
each are left for their schooling. 

When we heard that you, honourable gentlemen, had been chosen to listen to our 
grievances, we felt very happy for many reasons. We thought that in some ways, you 
would be our deliverers, as we are the least paid men in all the civil service. We are 
human beings like others, and like them we like what is good and nice. We have more 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 945 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

responsibilities than clerks in higher classes in the service, and we sustain the irre- 
gularities of the seasons. Of all branches in the civil service, there are only the letter 
carriers who have no hope of reaching a higher class; we have no law decreeing that 
after a certain number of years, a faithful letter-carrier whose strength is getting 
worn out at the service of his country, can have a better position more consistent in 
his capacities ; but he will again in his old days, have to carry loads that young men 
can hardly carry. We have the perspective that if we are sick foi one or two months 
before dying, we shall see poverty troubling the last moments of our life. 

We humbly beg of you, gentlemen, that an amendment to the postal laws be made ; 
that we be paid in sickness ; that our salary be increased to $1,200.00 so as to allow 
to do honour to the government who employ us, and to live honourably ; that like the 
other employees we be granted 21 days of holidays instead of 12 days which are given 
at present. On this point we deserve on account of our hard work to b ■ put _on an 
equal footing with them. 

I hope, gentlemen, that this shows sufficiently, that it is not for light reasons that 
we are asking for an increase of salary; and I beg to thank you for your kind atten- 
tion. 

Statement of my expenses for my family of -i children. 

Monthly. 

Bread, v <>f a loaf per day § '•* 75 

Meat, 2 lbs. i>er day at Dc 9 <"» 

Butter, 1 lb. per day at 25c 8 10 

Eggs, for 2-")c. per week 1 00 

Vegetables, $1 per week 4 (X ' 

Fuel (wood) 1 cord per month at 4 'hi 

House rent 7 "»i i 

Milk, | gallon at 18c •"> 40 

Groceries 12 00 

Washing, at -SI per week 4 00 

Life Insurance - 00 

Furniture Insurance. 1 00 

Total $ 62 0:» 

Salary 56 00 

Deficit, monthly 9 6 05 

N.B. — Of all these items, you can see that all are at the lowest price possible, the 
average of my salary is $56 monthly, and I have put in this statement no expense 
other than the most necessary to life. I have not included any items for clothing, 
shoes, sickness, doctors, for the charge and buying of house linen, carpets, crockery, 
help, schooling, taxes, &c. 

I believe that this clearly shows that we are short of more money than we re- 
ceive, and that for us, it is quite impossible, with our actual salaries, to live comfort- 
ably. 

We have the honour to be, Gentlemen, 
Your devoted friends, 
(Signed) THE LETTER CARRIERS OF QUEBEC. 

By P. Alph. P pile tier. 



29a— 60 



946 LOYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 



Quebec, September 18, 1907. 

Messrs. P. E. Lane and J. J. Battle appeared as a deputation from the clerks of 
the city post office. 

Mr. Lane being sworn, submitted a memorandum on behalf of the staff, which was 
read and filed. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Do you represent the whole staff of the Quebec post office? — A. The clerks, 
not the letter carriers. 

Q. You entered the service in 1880? — A. Yes. 

Q. You were 33 when you entered the service? — A. About that. 

Q. You were in some business? — A. Yes. 

Q. Why did you enter the post office? — A. Because our business had declined 
somewhat. My father started a ship chandlery store, and we had to close during the 
winter, and I was disgusted at the manner in which we had to give credit. 

Q. You thought it preferable to go into the public service rather than stay in 
business, with the uncertainties and probable losses of business? — A. Yes. 

Q. What did you come in at ?— A. $360. 

Q. That was the lowest grade then — A. Yes. 

Q. What class was it called? — A. The fourth class, I think. 

Q. Then you passed the various examinations? — A. Yes. 

Q. You now get $1,000 ? — A. Yes. I was nearly three years in the service before 
I got $400, and I got the $400 for a few months. Then I got $400 for a couple of 
years. I passed all the examinations but one, and it was only in 1903 that I got $900. 

Q. And now you are at the limit of the junior second class? — A. Yes. 

Q. To get beyond that you have to pass another examination? — A. So it seems. 
i am quite willing to undergo that if it is necessary. 

Q. There is nothing in the Quebec post office beyond the senior second class? — A. 
There is nothing beyond the senior second class just now. 

Q. You consider that there should be a grade above the second class? — A. Yes. 

Q. And you consider that here, as in Montreal, there should be a post office super- 
intendent between the postmaster and assistant postmaster and yourselves? — A. Yes. 
because early in the morning we do not expect the postmaster or the assistant post- 
master to attend. As the men begin to work early and work till late at night, the 
superintendent might be expected to be there at about six o'clock in the morning. 

Q. The assistant postmaster has been in the service over 32 years? — A. Yes, he 
was a mail carrier at one time. 

Q. He has been through all the grades? — A. Yes, he is a practical man. 

Q. He is there all the time? — A. No; he has an assistant in Mr. Evanturel. 

Q. Have you many temporary employees in this office? — A. Not many. 

Q. According to your list, you have four senior second class, three junior second 
class, four senior third class, five junior third class, and four fourth class. Have you 
any other clerks besides these? — A. Yes, we have upwards of forty on our list — 
labourers and others. They come in as labourers and do the work of clerks. 

Q. Simply because they have not passed an examination? — A. Yes. 

Q. Have you any letter carriers doing clerks work and graded as letter carriers? 
—A. Yes. 

Q. And thiey are deprived of their uniforms and car tickets? — A. Yes. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 947 

SESSIONAL PAFER No. 29a 

Q. How many of these have you? — A. Four, I think. 

Q. Considering the emoluments paid to employees in other institutions you do not 
consider that you are paid sufficiently? — A. Xo, I do not. 

Q. What is the pay given for clerical work in the city of Quebec? What does 
a bookkeeper in an office get ? — A. A bookkeeper gets $1,000. 

Mr. Battle.— Some get $2,000 and some $3,000. 

Q. Dc you consider your work to be on a par with that of a book-keeper at Dobell's 
or Sharpies'. 

Mr. Lane. — We have the responsibility of letters containing money and other 
important matters, and our work is as onerous. 

Q. Do you consider your work, onerous and constant as it is, of the same import- 
ance as tbat of a book-keeper of a large and prominent commercial house I — A. I do, 
because when I left the Commercial Academy I was fit to take any position in Lower 
Town, and when I entered the Government service I thought my salary would in- 
crease more rapidly. To-day, if I were the same age as I was then, I would not enter 
the post oflicie. I have been twenty years in the service, and I now receive only $1,000 
a year. 

Q. Are you married' — A. Yes. 

Q. Have you any family dependent on you ? — A. Yes, two girls and a boy living, 
and my mother-in-law and my brother-in-law live with me. 

Q. Is $1,000 a year sufficient to maintain you and your family I — A. Xo. I have 
help from my brother-in-law. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. Have you any insurance? — A. Yes. 

Q. In what companies ? — A. In two assessment societies. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. What are your hours I — A. 1 go to work at 6.30 in the morning and work till 
9 and often till 10. We leave at 9 or 9.30, and come back at 12.30, and work from 
then till 6 or 6.30 in the evening. We change every day. The next day we work 
from 6.30 to 12.30 and from 2 till 4 or 4.30 if the mails are late. 

Q. Then you begin work every day at 6.30 ? — A. Yes, except on Sundays. 

Q. Does that apply to all the clerks in the post office? — A. Mostly all the clerks, 
except those in the money order and savings bank offices. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. I suppose they are better paid than the rest? — A. Xo, pretty much on the 
same scale. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. lou work on Sundays? — A. Yes. every second Sunday of the year except when 
we are off on vacation, and we have to take three Sundays from our vacation to count 
into the 21 days. 

Q. What are your hours on Sundays? — A. Generally from about 8 till 1 o'clock 
every second Sunday. 

Q. Every other Sunday you get off? — A. Yes. that is, twenty-six Sundays in the 
year. 

Q. What about legal holidays ? — A. On legal holidays we are on duty all the time. 
On Christmas Day we are on duty half the day. 

Q. You claim that you should be put on an equal footing with the officials of tha 
inside service? — A. Yes. 

Q. You send your reports, accounts and returns to Ottawa? — A. Ye=. 

29a— 60£ 



948 ROTAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. You have to account for all that is done in the post office — the savings bank, 
registration, money orders and everything else? — A. Yes. 

Q. Do you think that as the officials of the inside service are the people to whom 
you make your returns that the returning offiqer should be on an equality with the 
officer to whom he makes his returns ? — A. Ahead of him, because we have the respon- 
sibility, and he has none. He simply checks our work. We have to make it as clear 
as A. B, C before him. 

Mr. Battle. — If we are out $10 in our accounts at night, we have to put our hand 
in our pocket and make it up. The inside service have not. 

Air. Lane. — I will mention to you a case. One of the men in this post office was 
short $22 in his account. He made the shortage good and sent his returns to Ottawa. 
Some days afterwards he found out his mistake and wrote to Mr. Coulter, I think it 
was, who said he would look into the matter. Nothing came of it, and the man in 
this office thriee months afterwards wrote again. I believe Mr. Coulter replied that 
the matter was in the hands of the Auditor General. He did not get his money back, 
and he has not got it yet. and that was eight or nine years ago. 

By the Chairman : 
Q. You ask that a fixed law be enacted so that the- Deputy Postmaster shall be 
chosen from the clerical staff of the post office? — A. Yes. 

Q. "Was not your present Deputy Postmaster selected in that way? 
Mr. Battle. — No, he came from the Inspector's department. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. The only political appointments at present are city postmasters and post office 
inspectors. The assistant postmaster must have grown up in the service of the post 
office ? 

Mr. Lane. — Yes, he had been downstairs with us previous to being appointed. 

Q. You say that a fixed law should be enacted so that a deputy postmaster could 
be chosen from the clerical staff of the city post office. Do you mean that the assistant 
postmaster at Quebec should only be chosen from the clerks of the Quebec post office? 
— A. Yes. that is what we mean. 

Q. If the department found a very good man. say in the inspector's office, don't 
you think he might be made a deputy postmaster ? — A. No, because he does not under- 
stand the work of the office as we do. It is a different class of work altogether. 

Q. I do not see why a junior from the outside service of the post office, in the 
railway mail service or any where else, should not be made an assistant postmaster 
as well as a clerk in the post office? — A. They should not. because they have not the 
experience. 

Q. I will put it in another way — why should not one of you men he made a super- 
intendent of the railway mail clerks? 

Mr. Battle. — They will not give it to us, because we have not the influence. The 
idea i- that the men in city post offices should have their grades. 

Q. According to your idea, there is to be nothing for the clerks of the post office 
excepting the assistant postmastership? 

Mr. Lane. — That is all. because that is the highest position he can get. But we 
never get it, because political influence is in the way. 

Q. In addition, you want a superintendent appointed ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Why should you have a superintendent \ 

Mr. Battle. — Because Montreal has one. 

Q. Montreal is about four times the size of Quebec, and has about 340 people in 
the post office, while you have about 60. 

Mr. Battie. — Yes. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 949 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. And you think that with one-sixth the staff of Montreal you should have a 
superintendent ? 

Mr. Battle. — Certainly we should, because the men have to be ruled in the same 
way. If the deputy postmaster is absent, he should have an assistant. 

Mr. Lane. — And it is necessary to have a man there in the morning to regulate 
the office. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. To put it in another way — you consider that Mr. Caouette has faithfully 
earned his position as assistant postmaster? 

Mr. Battle. — He has; you cannot find a better in the service. 

Q. Then why should you require a first-class man under him of equal rank? 

Mr. Battle. — He cannot put in sixteen or eighteen hours a day. 

Q. He might have a first-class clerk? 

Mr. Battle. — Well, we have nothing of that kind. 

Q. Then you want the Superannuation Act restored? 

Mr. Lane. — Yes. 

Q. With so much of your service exposed to hardships and to all weather?, like 
the railway mail clerks and letter carriers, and yourselves with your irregular hours, 
would you not think it desirable that the provisions of the Superannuation Act. if 
re-enacted, should be extended so as to include the widows and the orphans? — A. Yes. 

Q. When there are vacancies in the fourth class of clerks, how are they filled? 

Mr. Battle. — That depends on the amount of influence a man has. Sometimes a 
man is brought from the outside and the men in the office are left behind. 

Q. What is your position ? 

Mr. Battle. — I am in the Money Order Branch. 

Q. When you want assistance, what do you do? — A. I ask the deputy postmaster. 

Q. And he writes to Ottawa, I presume? — A. Yes. 

Q. And if the authorities think another clerk should be provided somebody turns 
up? — A. Yes, from outside. 

Q. You have never seen the men until they were appointed '. — A. No. 

Q. You do not know anything about them until they come in? — A. Xo. 

Q. You do not know how or by whom they are appointed? — A. Not until after 
they are appointed. 

Q. Then you find out? — A. Yes, we always find out. At present I have two 
labourers working with me in the Money Order Branch. 

Q. That is to say, you have two men doing clerk's work who failed to pass an 
examination? — A. That is exactly the case. One is 70 odd years old, and the other 
almost as old. 

Q. And in order that they may do the work, they are graded as labourers? — A. Yes. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. What salary do they get? — A. One gets $1.50 a day and the other $2.25 a day, 
the last one appointed. 

Q. Is he any better than the $1.50 man? — A. There is not a bit of difference. 

Q. They are both about alike ? — A. Two of a kind. That is about the way we 
are treated. 

Q. How long has that man been appointed ? — A. Five or six years — we do not 
know who appointed them. 

Q. Can they write at all? — A. Yes. 

Q. Can they cast up figures ? — A. A little. 

By the Chairman- 
Q. You have seven or eight letter carriers employed to do clerks' work i — A. 
Mr Caouette has the management of that 



950 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. Mr. Caouette. having- the management of the office, and seeing that extra 
clerical assistance is necessary, has turned on the staff letter carriers to do the work I 
— A. I do not know how it is done. 

Q. I will put it in another way : Seven or eight letter carriers have been brought 
from their beats and put into the office to do clerks' work ? — A. Yes. 

Q. And four are There now ? — A. Yes. 

Q. And they lose their uniforms and street car tickets ? — A. I cannot say. 

Mr. Lane. — Some wear their uniforms still. 

Q. Is this employing of subordinate officers to do the duties of higher officials 
done out of dread of the politicians — because you do not want the politicians to 
know that there are vacant clerkship* \ 

Mr. Lane. — I think it is something like that. 

Mr. Battle. — You compare our work with that of the inside service. In the first 
place, we work a great deal more than the inside service does. We work 339 days in 
tiro year, and we put in two hours a day more than they do. Then, compare the re- 
sponsibility of the outside service with that of the inside. I am in the money order 
department. The inside service only take our returns. If I am $10 or $20 short any 
day, I have to make it good, but the inside service have no responsibility of that 
kind. Our responsibilities are far greater than theirs, and we have less pay. I think 
we have a right to be put on the same footing. Sir Wilfrid Laurier thought we were 
as well paid as the inside service. Another consideration is this : We in the money 
order department cannot sit down quietly at our desk ; we have to attend to the 
public, and we are liable to make mistakes at any time. The same is true of the men 
at the registered letter desk. If a registered letter is lost, they may have to make 
up $100. Then our hours are longer and our work harder than those of the inside 
service. 

The Chairman. — I would suggest that you embody these points in your memor- 
orandum. 

Mr. Lane. — When I entered the service I had recommendations from two firms 
in which I was employed. I came from a commercial academy and was fit to take 
any position. There is too much politics in this matter. 

Mr. Battle. — If the Government gave me my pension to-morrow, I would leave 
the service. 



To the Gentlemen of the Civil Service Commission sitting at Quebec. 

Gentlemen, — Profiting by the kind suggestion made to them by the Honourable 
Postmaster General, to prepare themselves to answer different questions that may be 
asked by the gentlemen of the Civil Service Commission, the employees of the Que- 
bec post office wish to humbly submit their views and just claims, in the following 
manner. 

The question of salaries is the most important for the outside service, as we have 
never received any consideration whatever since confederation, notwithstanding that 
other branches of the Civil Service have. 

Commercial institutions everywhere have increased the salaries of their em- 
ployees without even being approached on the subject, for they found it only just 
and reasonable on their part to do so. 

The post office employee on entering the service accepted a salary o f$360 on condi- 
tions of a statutory increase of $40, per annum, to the maximum of $S00, expecting 
to receive an immediate increase on attaining said maximum. He is sadly disap- 
pointed, for after twenty years, and in some cases twenty-eight years' service, he 
finds he is only receiving a salary of $S00. 

The actual salaries are not sufficient to live upon, such being attested by the 
annexed list of the cost of living, which has been prepared with the utmost care 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 951 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

and without exaggeration, also proofs in support of said statement. The petitioners 
beg the honourable Commission to compare the postal service with that of the other 
departments. 

It is by nature the mose strenuous of all the Civil Service. 

1st. The early hours, the greater number of the employees being obliged to report 
for duty at 6.30 a.m. in winter and summer alike. 

2nd. TJncleanliness and bad atmosphere, exposure to draughts, doors being con- 
tinuously opened in rear for reception of mail bags, and in front by the public. 

3rd. Excessive rapidity in the execution of his duties; the opening and forward- 
ing of mails having to be done in all haste. 

4th. Work on Sundays and legal holidays. 

5th. Irregailar hours of duty, often lengthened on account of a restricted staff, or 
absence of clerks. 

6th. Continual study of his actual duties .of the Postal Guide, &c, &c. For all 
these considerations, the petitioners beg you, to recommend : — 

1st. That we be put on an equal footing with the inside service. 

2nd. An immediate increase of 25 per cent on the actual salaries of the employees 
to face the present situation. 

3rd. An annual increase of $100 instead of $50. 

4th. That a fixed law be enacted so that the Deputy Postmaster be chosen from 
the clerical staff of the city post office. 

5th. Appointment of a superintendent at a fixed salary, say of $1,500 on appoint- 
ment, with annual increases of $100 up to $1,900. 

6th. Appointment of at least two (2) first-class clerks, to which we are entitled, 
according to our revenue. 

7th. Superannuation Act restored, and the age limit reduced from 65 years to 
60 years; length of service reduced from 35 years to 30 years. 
We have the honour to be, gentlemen, 

Your obedient servants, 
(Signed) THE CLERKS OF THE QUEBEC POST OFFICE. 

Quebec, September, 1907. 



Quebec, September 19, 1907. 

To the Gentlemen of the Civil Service Commission, 
Sitting at Quebec. 

Gentlemen^ — When I appeared before you yesterday, I stated that the clerks in 
the outside service had greater responsibilities than those of the inside service, whose 
salaries are very much higher than ours. You kindly asked me to give my reasons in 
writing, which I now do. 

1st. A clerk in the inside service is never liable to lose any money, whereas those 
of the outside service are; for example: Take a clerk in the Money Order Depart- 
ment, after serving the public and working hard all day, he sometimes finds he has 
made a mistake of $10, and before he can balance his accounts he has to take $10 out 
of his pocket. Where is the clerk in the inside service that has such a responsibility? 
His time is actually his own, for what work he cannot perform to-day he can leave it 
over till to-morrow; such is not the case with the clerk in the outside service. His 
work must be done to time, and he never knows the amount of work he has to perform 
in the eight hours, which I might mention is often lengthened to ten. I might also 
mention that even when the clerk knows where the mistake occurs, he has the greatest 
difficulty to have the money returned; for people are under the impression that it is 
the Government that loses the money and not the clerk. 

2nd. A clerk in the Register Letter Department, if he happens to lose a- letter is 
called to make good the contents of that letter. 



952 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL .SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

3rd. A clerk in the General Delivery or Despatching Branch in the same way is 
called upon to make good any losses that occur in their departments. 

Takp the Postmaster General's Report. Appendix H, and compare the losses paid 
by the inside service and those of the outside service. I am certain that you, gentle- 
men, will be convinced that the clerks in the outside service are those that have the 
responsible positions, and not the inside service with their big salaries. I consider it 
only fair that we should be paid the same as the clerks in the inside service. It is 
the impression of the nine-tenths of the Members of Parliament, as well as the public 
at large, that the inside and the outside service are on the same footing. 

I have the honour to be, gentlemen. 
Yours respectfully, 

(Sgd.) J. J. BATTLE, 

Post Office Cleric. 



Sir Wilfrid Laurier's Answer to the Delegates of the City Post Offices of Canada, 

at Ottawa, June, 1906. 

Gentlemen, — I have taken note of all that has been said in favour of your peti- 
tion, and I consider your request a modest one, and I am in full accord with the views 
expressed by my colleagues. 

Mr. Barker has just said that there should not exist a difference between the out- 
side and the inside service, and I am of that opinion myself. I regret that I have 
only two of my colleagues here to-day, one of whom, the Minister of Customs, is an old 
hand at the head of his department, and we have here with us the Postmaster General 
who is a new man, and between the two they will likely be able to deal- with the 
situation. 

This grievance which exists I will givje my fullest consideration, and consult with 
the Minister of Finance on the subject. It is not reasonable to think that a clerk in 
the inside service who possesses a small family should get more than a man in the out- 
side service with a large family, and why this difference was allowed to exist I cannot 
at present say. 

I must say, gentlemen, that your request is very reasonable, and I will endeavour 
to bring this matter up this present session if it is possible to do so at this time, but if 
not it will certainly be brought up at th|e next. 

I believe that the members of the outside service work just as hard as those of 
the inside service. I believe, since you say so, that they have larger families; and T 
have no reason to doubt that they have just as large appetites, and if. as has been 
stated, their families are larger, it might be right to inquire what it is that should be 
remedied, if there is anything to be remedied. 



Reply of the Postmaster General to the Post Office Clerics' delegation, Wednesday, 

November 7, 1907. 

Gentlemen, — I am very much pleased to have met you and I must say that I 
congratulate you on having brought my friend, Mr. Zimmerman with you. You 
could not have brought a better advocate. 

I have, on several occasions in my position in the House of Commons given thi- 
matter considerable attention. 

I am, to-day, occupying the present position of Postmaster General and I have 
been thinking over the salary of the Civil Servants and I will bring, myself, the ques- 
tion of the Civil Service before the Government. 

I thought that this class of His Majesty's officers was not treated as it should be. 

Your case is indeed a very strong one, and has been well presented on a pre- 
vious occasion as well as to-day. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 953 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

I intend to act. I don't know what the other Ministers will do, but I intend to 
act immediately. 

I received yesterday a deputation of the country postmasters, and the other day 
the railway mail clerks of Montreal, I am receiving all the branches of my depart- 
ment. 

You have, unquestionably, I admit a very strong case, and I must tell you. that 
you have all my sympathy, all my good will. This is not sufficient, sympathy and 
good will will not increase the 66 cents in the dollar. 

Your arguments are the strongest I have heard yet about the salary question. 
You may trust in my good will and you may expect from me f airplay and justice. 

Gentlemen, give me a free hand, and I expect loyalty from you. I know that 1 
have your loyality and good support, but I speak as a friend. Although a young man, 
I am your father, being at the head of your department I was perhaps rather stiff 
with my friend Allen when he spoke, but I must tell you that you should not have 
mentioned about the hours. This is a condition of discipline that the men of the 
inside and outside service, should do some overwork when necessary. 

Dr. Coulter is a good Deputy Minister, a good father of this large family, who 
sees that your wrongs are righted. 

Go back to your homes and tell your confreres, high and low, that they can trust 
the Minister, that I intend to do something during the coming session. 



Quebec, September 19, 1907. 
T. P. J. Bazin, Esq.. 

' Delegate ' to the Royal Commission. 

Dear Sir, — Please to permit me to let you know my complaints about my posi- 
tion as senior clerk of Quebec post office. 

I desire that you let know to the officers of the Royal Commission my services, 
as follows : Four years as letter carrier, eight years as chief letter carrier and twenty- 
four years as clerk in the different departments. Total, thirty-six years. 

Just now, I am employed in the Registered Letter Department. 

My conduct is an unexceptionable one. 

I have passed my promotion class as first-class clerk which is my due since four 
years. 

Hoping, dear sir, that you will give me the privilege to obtain it. 

I am, yours truly, 

(Signed) TTLRIC VEZINA. 

P.S. — Since four years I don't received no increase of salary. 



Quebec, September 19, 1907. 

Messrs. G. E. Evanturel and F. Tvixdellax, representing the Post Office staff, 
were sworn and examined. 

Mr. Evanturel was first examined. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. What position do you occupy? — A. Superintendent of the office, graded as 
second class. 

Q. What salary do you get?— A. $1,200. 



954 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. How long have you had that? — A. Two years. 

Q. What had you before that ''.— A. I went up by increases of $50 from $800. 

Q. You have been thirty years in the service? — A. Yes. 

Q. Mr. Ivindellan, what salary do you get now?— A. $700. 

Q. You came in nearly five years ago? — A. Yes. 

Q. What salary had you to commence with? — A. When I first entered the service 
I had $1 a day. 

Q. Then you passed an examination, I suppose? — A. Yes. 

Q. And you got $400 a year?— A. Yes. 

Q. And your salary was gradually increased until you now get the maximum of 
your class, $700? — A. Not quite that. I have not been long enough in the service 
to have reached the maximum of my class. 

Q. Your class is the fourth? — A. Yes. 

Q. What is the maximum of the class? — A. $700; but I entered the service in 
1903, and I could not reach the $700 by this time, but I succeeded last year in getting 
an increase of $200. 

Q. How did you get that?? — A. That is where the secret is. Of course, I have 
no objection to state it. 

Q. There are four fourth class clerks? — A. There are only four in the Civil Ser- 
vice List, but we have a few more since that was published. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. How old are you? — A. I will be 30 next February. 

Q. How old were you when you went into the service? — A. 23 or 24. 

Q. What did you do before that? — A. I worked at the tailor trade, but it did not 
agree with my health. 

The Chairman — Mr. Evanturel, you and Mr. Kindellan were unable to come before 
us with the other clerks yesterday, and we shall be very glad to hear anything you have 
to say in addition to what was said to us by Mr. Battle and Mr. Lane. You are all 
in the same boat. 

Mr. Evanturel. — We are all in the same boat, but the boat seems to be leaky. 

Q. Have you anything- to say to supplement the observations of Mr. Battle and 
Mr. Lane? — A. I may say that I am acting as superintendent of the office, I have the 
responsibility of the assistant postmaster, and I do not get anything for it. I do not 
suppose that outside of this office you can find a man in the whole service in the same 
position as I am — taking charge of an office, with the responsibility of the office, and 
not paid a cent for it. 

Q. Your compaint is that the system in Quebec is not like the system in Montreal, 
where there is a superintendent ? — A. Yes, and there are several other offices. 

Q. What other offices are there? — A. I could not say. It is done in another way. 

Q. Will you tell us what the other way is ? — A. They will take the clerk who is in 
charge and will give him a first class. They will push him on. 

Q. With the exception of Toronto and Montreal, there are no superintendents in 
any of the city post offices. You consider that failing the appointment of a superin- 
tendent there should be first class clerks ? — A. There should be something of that kind. 
If a man is in charge of an office he is generally paid more than the men under him 
are. I do not see why it should not be done in this case. 

By Mr. Bazin : 
Q. You are not particular about the name? — A. I am not particular about the 
name or the office. They can give it to somebody else, but I think it is not right to 
have a man in charge of a number of other men and give him nothing for it. 

By the Chairman : 
Q. Your senior was appointed six years before you? — A. Yes. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 955 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. And got into his class three years before you did ? — A. Yes. 

Q. As a matter of fact, would not he be chief over the office? — A. Yes, but it is 
left to the assistant postmaster to choose the man he thinks the most suitable for the 
position, and it is the same in my case, without boasting about it. The other man, 
the assistant postmaster thought would not be listened to by the clerks, and he put me 
in the position. 

Q. Then your contention is that you have been selected by practically the head of 
the staff, and that you should be placed in a class equivalent to that and be paid a 
salary such as is paid in other places ? — A. Yes. If they want to give the place to 
another man, they can do it. 

Q. Putting aside the personal question, you think the person appointed to be the 
head of the staff should have a higher grade and higher pay as in other places? — A. 
Yes. 

Q. Is there any other point you wish to mention?— A. I will tell you plainly that 
I am far from satisfied. I do not think we are treated like other clerks in the Civil 
Service. I think we are the hardest worked men in the Civil Service, and in order 
to get an increase we. have to go through an examination which they do not go through 
in other branches of the service, and if we happen to have a poor memory or a used up 
memory, we are blocked. I am one of them, although I was picked out to take charge 
of the office. 

Q. What were the subjects on which you were blocked — bookish questions? — A 
No. A question about what the postage would be on a letter to an island in the 
middle of the ocean. 

Q. Were they questions out of the Postal Guide; for instance, the postage on a 
letter going to Malta? — A. They asked about the Windward Islands, for which we do 
not see a letter once a year. We cannot keep all these things in our heads. 

Q. Is it not a fact that the questions put to members of the postal staff are in line 
with their duties? — A. Like questions you might put to a lawyer, but which he would 
not be able to answer without referring to his book. He cannot carry the answers in 
his head. , 

Q. But the questions put to the post office officials, when going up for promotion, 
are invariably in line with the duties of their department? — A. Yes. 

Mr. Ejndellan. — I would like to say that for the examination which we pass at 
present we receive an increase of $50. We are willing to pass the examination, but we 
ask for an increase of $100. 

The Chairman. — I thought Mr. Evanturel was objecting to the present examina- 
tion ? 

Mr. Evanturel. I am. 

The Chairman. — And Mr. Kindellan is willing to have the examinations. 

Mr. Kindellan. — I am younger, and am anxious to get the $100. 

(A letter from Mr. Battle was read and filed.) 

Mr. Evanturel. — I have been in two branches of the department. I was in the 
money order branch some yiears ago. One evening when I balanced my account I was 
short of a certain amount, I think it was $11. Of course, I had to make it good, and 
sent it to Ottawa. Two days afterwards I discovered the error, and proved the error to 
Ottawa. They wrote back to me that the error was perfectly clear, and that the money 
should be refunded to me, but it did not come. After waiting a couple of months, I 
wrote abou f it again, and they said the money was in the hands of the Auditor, and 
I have never got my money. 

Mr. Bazin. — How many years ago was that? 

Mr. Evanturel. — It might be ten years. 

Mr. Kindellan. — Another point I would like to draw your attention to is the 
desirability of a wider scope to postmasters. I will give you an example. If I were 
to fall sick on the 14th of tbje month and had the misfortune of being sick for one 



956 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

month, I would not receive any money for that month, and probably for two weeks 
after my return to duty, although that is the very time I would most need the money. 
Our salaries are not so large as to enable us to put aside money on every pay day 
for a rainy day, so that often, when an employee falls sick he has not enough money 
to buy the medicine prescribed by the physician. I think we should receive our pay 
when we are sick the same as when we are on duty. If greater scope were given to 
the postmaster, who knows his employees better than any one else, he could tell 
whether a man was really sick or not. 

Mr. Evanturel. — Our pay stops when we fall sick, and we only get it when it 
pleases the department. 

The Chairman. — The difficulty is that the Post Office Department has such inti- 
mate regulations with the public that the regulations have to be strict. 

Mr. Evanturel. — Yes, but this has only existed for ten years, since the Hon. 
William Mulock took charge of the department. I have been under both blue and 
red Governments for thirty years, and I can say that the last ten years are the worst" 
I have ever experienced — and I am a Liberal. 

Mr. Kindellan. — There was another point. If we have the misfortune to have 
some one fall ill in our families or to have to attend a funeral, or if we lose a week, 
the time is deducted from our holidays. We have twenty-one holidays in a year, in- 
cluding Sundays. 

Mr. Evanturel. — I will give you an example. My brother, a membier of Parlia- 
ment in Ontario, lost his wife a few months ago, and I wentup to attend the funeral. 
I was away three days, and they were cut off my holidays. 

The Chairman. If you get sick and the circumstances are inquired into, you 
get sick leave? 

Mr. Kindellan. — Yes, but if we are sick for one day we have to bring a doctor's 
certificate or lose our day's pay. I am only asking that wider scope be given to the 
postmaster. 

Mr. Evanturel. — In general, we are far from being satisfied. It is not only a 
question of our wanting an increase of salary; but we have not been treated properly 
these last ten years— here or in any other offices. I meet post office clerks from all 
over the Dominion, and they all agree. Some of them say that if they could be pen- 
sioned off, they would leave the servioe, and I am one of them. 

Mr. Fyshe. — You think the spirit with which the department has been adminis- 
tered is objectionable. 

Mr. Evanturel. — Yes, that is the thing. Take another matter. Ten years ago 
I with many others had a right, according to the statute, to get $50 increase each year. 
That was kept from us for three years. That is all over now, but we never got that 
money; it is lost to us forever. I had a contract with the Government that I would 
get so much a year. Why don't they stick to their contract when I stick to mine? 

Mr. Fyshe. — What reason do they give? 

Mr. Evanturel. — They give no reason. 

The Chairman. — You agree with your colleagues who were here yesterday that 
there should be a different gradation of clerks, with first, second and third classes? 

Mr. Kindellan. — Yes. 



ROYAL COMMISSION <>x THE CIVIL SERVICE 957 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 



Quebec, September 20, 1907. 
Mr. A. Bolduc, Quebec Post Office Inspector, sworn and examined. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. You were appointed in 1879 '. — A. Yes. 

Q. What position were you appointed to? — A. As clerk in the Post Office De- 
partment in Ottawa. 

Q. How long did you remain in Ottawa I — A. I remained four years in the 
department and was then appointed an assistant post office inspector of the Ottawa 
district under Mr. French. I was four years assistant inspector there, when I was 
appointed twenty years ago. inspector here. 

Q. You served the first four years of your twenty-eight years service in what 
branch of the Post Office Department ? — A. The secretary's branch. 

Q. There you learned the routine of the correspondence I — A. 5 

Q. Then they made you assistant post office inspector in the Ottawa district, 
and on July 1, 1887, they sent you to be inspector here I — A. Yes. 

Q. What salary had you when you were made inspector here I — A. $2,000. 

Q. You now get how much ? — A. $2,600. That is the maximum. 

Q. There was an increase of $100 a year ? — A. Yes. I got those increases. The 
increases were $200 after ten years service and $200 more after twenty years service; 
but the law was amended two years ago and made to read an increase of $100 a year 
up to a maximum of $2,600. 

Q. Then practically in the twenty years that you have been here your salary 
has been increased from $2,000 to $2,600. The $2,600 I got from August 1 last. 

Q. Before that it was $2,500 ?— A. Yes. 

Q. What is your staff ? — A. Eight clerks and a messenger. 

Q. You have two assistant inspectors I — A. Yes. 

Q. How many temporary clerks have you ' — A. Only one. 

Q. You have no first-class clerks '. — A. No. 

Q. Do you think you should have a first-class clerk '. — A. I think «". Mr. Pel- 
letier, who has been in the service twenty-six years is only second-class. 

Q. What is the geographical limit of your inspection \ — A. From Three Rivers, 
inclusive to the Straits of Belle Isle on the norlth shore, and from Xicolet to Gaspe 
on the south shore. 

Q. Do you do much outdoor work yourself ? — A. About ten days in the month 
on an average. 

Q. To cover such an enormous territory the two assistant inspectors are continu- 
ally on the travel \ — A. They travel about the same as I do : and besides those two 
assistants I send out two other clerks, because we could not manage the district other- 
wise. I have a thousand offices to look aftier. and three hundred and fifty are money 
order offices which require to be visited once a year. 

Q. How often do you visit the ordinary post office ? — A. We visit them only 
when there are complaints or when we pass them on our way to the money order ofl 

Q. You are allowed only the actual travelling expenses which you incur? — A. Yes. 

Q. That being the case, there is no inducement to travel beyond what i- re- 
quired ? — A. Xo, of course not. 

Q. In travelling, the wear and tear of clothes and other expenses which are not 
chargeable are a loss to you '. — A. Of course they are. 

Q. Then you think the old system of a per diem allowance was a better system 
than the present '. — A. Much so. 



958 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIYIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. When was the per diem allowance done away with ? — A. Fifteen years ago. 

Q. Yon could make a little money out of the per diem allowance '. — A. Certainly. 

Q. And it was an incentive to be always on the road ? — A. Certainly. 

Q. Then you think that it would be desirable in the best interests of the public 
service to restore some system of allowance ? — A. Certainly I do. 

Q. They have that in England ?— A. Yes, and in the States also. In the Stares 
they get $4 a day. In England the allowance is graded according to the title of the 
individual travelling. I think it would be fair to give the same allowance to every 
one. An assistant spends just as much as an inspector. 

Q. Of course, there is a certain amount of discomfort in travelling ? — A. Of 
course there is. 

Q. And most people would rather be at home ? — A. Yes. 

Q. So that, being paid only the absolute out of pocket expenses, there is no in- 
ducement now to do more than you are actually compelled to do? — A. That is true. 

Q. What is the maximum salary of an assistant inspector ? — A. $1,800. 

Q. How long has Mr. Green had $1,800 \ — A. About five or six years. 

Q. Mr. Larue is going up to that \ — A. Yes. He has only $1,300. 

Q. What is your idea of the salary paid to inspectors and assistants? — A. I think 
an inspector should be appointed from the service in the first instance. 

Q. Were you ? — A. Yes, but I was an exception. There are very few. I think 
the minimum salary of an inspector should be $2,500, and should go up to $3,200, 
and the salary of an assistant inspector should go from $1,800 to $2,500. I do not 
think the present minimum for an assistant inspector is high enough. 

Q. You won your spurs by being in the secretary's branch of the Post Office 
Department, and by becoming an assistant inspector at Ottawa before being ap- 
pointed inspector here. How are the inspectors generally appointed ? — A. Through 
political influence. 

Q. Frequently they are ex-members of parliament \ — A. Yes. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. You say you have two clerks travelling in addition to the two assistants ? — A. 
Yes. 

Q. Would it not be better to call them assistant inspectors ? — A. My idea is to 
give them a chance to learn the work properly as well as to have them assist me. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Is your district the largest in the Dominion? — A. One of the largest in 
territory. 

Q. How far north do you go ? — A. As far as the country is settled — to Lake St. 
John. Normandin is about the farthest point; that is about 60 miles beyond the 
railway. 

Q. There is a certain amount of rigour in going to these out-of-the-way places ? 
— Yes, indeed. I was six weeks this summer going to the Straits of Belle Isle. 

Q. Do you take out accident policies ? — A. No, but I think we should be allowed 
to have accident policies paid for by the department. 

Q. Is your life insured? — A. Yes. 

Q. Do you pay the ordinary life insurance premium?- — A. I do. 

Q. You do not pay any extra premium? — A. No. The agent made some objec- 
tions the last time I went to be insured, but I have not paid anything extra so far. 
Mr. Larue, my assistant, is ill at present with typhoid fever, which he attributes to 
his travelling, to drinking bad water. 

Q. You. of course, are under the old Superannuation Act? — A. I am, fortunately. 

Q. Don't you think, looking at the service as a whole, that it would be desirable 
to re-enact that. Act ? — A. Indeed I do. 

Q. Don't you think, looking at the perils incurred by many officials such as your- 
self, lighthouse keepers and others, that it would be desirable to extend the provisions 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERYICE 959 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

of thai Act to include pensions to widows ? — A. I do think that, and I might add 
that the new Act might include the provision that if a man dies before he reached 
the time for superannuation, his widow should get more than two months' 3alary. 

Q. The two months' gratuity is given to the representatives of an officer dying 
in harness to cover the exenses of his funeral? — A. That is all. 

Q. In the case of an officer who has been superannuated, that two months' grat- 
uity is not payable? — A. No. 

Q. Is there anything else you would like to say? — A. I would like to say some- 
thing on behalf of my clerks. The post office inspectors clerks are put on the same 
salary as the post office clerks. I think there should be some distinction, because a 
man in my office requires to be a man of education, who knows how to write French 
and English, while -A man in the post office has simply to sort letters. 

By Mr. Fi/she: 

Q. Are the hours the same? — A. The hours in my office are better — from 9 to 4. 
Of course, I have a good deal of sympathy with the post office clerks as regards hours, 
but it does not seem to me to be quite fair to have the same classification for the two 
offices. 

Q. Is it a requirement of your office that every man in it should be able to speak 
and write both French and English ? — A. Yes, they should. I have three shorthand 
writers, two of them in both English and French. These clerks, to my mind, earn 
more salary than clerks who simply sort letters. They render better service. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Then, your idea is that the clerks in your office, who have to take a bird's eye 
view of the whole district, and who have to carry on a great deal of correspondence, 
should be placed on better footing and be better paid than ordinary clerks doing 
routine work? — A. That is my belief, and I never understood why there was a distinc- 
tion between these clerks and those of the inside service in their classification. With 
the exception of the chiefs of branches and other important clerks, the clerks in the 
inside service do only routine work, whereas a man in a post office inspector's office 
requires more general ability. 

By Mr. Fyshe: / 

Q. The nature of your business is that of an authority keeping everything up to 
the mark? — A. Yes. 

The Chairman. — If anything occurs to you afterwards that you would like to 
add to what you have said, we shall be glad to have it in a memorandum from you. 



960 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 



Toronto, "Wednesday, September 25, 1907. 
The Royal Commission on the Civil Service met this morning- at 10.15 o'clock. 

Present: — Mr. J. M. Courtney., C.M.6., Chairman. 
Mr. Thomas Fyshe, Montreal, and 
Mr. P. J. Bazin, Quebec. 

A deputation from the Federated Association of Letter Carriers and the Toronto, 
Hamilton and London association was present to lay the views of the respective or- 
ganizations before the Commission. 

The Chairman. — We have received delegations of your confreres at Ottawa, Mont- 
real and Quebec, so if we do not ask you very many questions you will consider that 
we have the desired information already. 

Mr. Alexander McMobdie, called, sworn and examined. 
The Chairman. — I understand you have a memorial to present. 
The Witness. — I beg leave to hand in this memorial embodying the views of the 
Federated Association of Letter Carrier?. 
The memorial read and filed as exhibit. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. In your memorial you state that the letter carriers have formed themselves 
into an association. Are we to understand that practically the 500 letter carriers are 
all included in the association referred to '. — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You have a kind of mutual benefit fund, have you not, in the interest of those 
members who fall sick '. — A. Yes. sir, we have a death fund. 

Q. How much does that cost you each a month? — A. We pay $1 a death for each 
man. 

Q. That amounts to a few dollars a year, I suppose \ — A. The dues ran to $7 this 
year. 

Q. You also state in your memorial that you are limited to the same class of 
employment; in other words, once a letter carrier, always a letter carrier? — A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. Has a letter carrier ever been appointed to an outside position in the postal 
service, say a postmaster, for example? — A. In the old country, sir. 

Q. I know with respect to the old country, but has a letter carrier ever obtained 
that position here? — A. I never heard of on?. 

Q. Do you know whether any letter carrier has ever gone into clerical work here 
in the post office' — A. Yes, sir. I have known of letter carriers having gone inside and 
done clerical work. 

Q. What I mean is. have any letter carriers ever been promoted to be clerk and 
mounted straight up \ — A. Xot straight away, sir. 

Q. Have you heard, or do you know, of letter carriers doing clerks' work who are 
graded as letter carriers ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Is that the case here in Toronto? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Is it the ease in Hamilton, do you know '. 

Mr. R. Guy. — Yes. I believe so. 

The Chairman. — Is it the case in London: 

Mr. M. M. Empey.— Yes, sir. 



ROYAL COMMISSION <>\ THE CIVIL SERVICE 961 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 
By the Chairman : 

Q. In such cases the letter carriers are deprived of their uniforms their street 
car tickets and other privileges, are they not? 

Mr. McMordie. — They are deprived of everything. 

Q. That is to say, when they become clerks and perform a superior class of work 
they lose by the change ? They are graded still as letter carriers ? — A. Quite right, sir. 

Q. In the memorial you refer to the question of your vacation. How many days' 
vacation do you have a year? — A. I have twenty-one days — eighteen days rather 

Q. And if by any chance you fall sick and have had your vacation your day's pay 
is deducted? — A. That is the case, sir, under what is termed the new Bill. 

Q. At what hour do you begin your day's work? — A. Speaking for myself, I 
begin work at about 6.45- a.m. 

Q. At what hour does the work of a letter carrier begin in Hamilton? — A. At 
about the same hour, sir — from 6.30 to 6.45 a.m. 

Q. And at what hour in London? — A. At about 6.30, sir. 

Q. After you come to the post office at 6.45 a.m., when do you begin your beat? 
— A. Myself personally? 

Q. We are speaking generally of letter carriers ? — A. I begin at 8 o'clock ; some 
men begin at 7.30 o'clock. 

Q. According as the letters are sorted, I suppose? — A. Yes. 

Q. After the first beat is over what happens then ( Do you go back to the post 
office ? — A. We come back immediately and do our best to get out in time on the next 
trip. 

Q. At what time do you generally return from your 8 o'clock beat? — A. A few 
minutes after nine, possibly ten or fifteen minutes past. 

Q. When does the man who makes three trips get back ? — A. The man who does 
three trips is in the office earlier in the morning. The men who have to serve the 
outlying districts are there at 6 o'clock in the morning, or shortly after six. 

Q. At what time do they get back? — A. At 10 o'clock, though possibly some do 
not get back until later. 

Q. After the first beat is finished, what happens then? — A. The carriers prepare 
for the second beat. 

Q. Do the carriers perform a second beat before dinner time? — A. Yes. 

Q. Wlien is your second beat finished? — A. It all depends upon the walk. Some 
are through at 12 o'clock or a quarter to 12, and some at 1 o'clock. 

Q. Then you go to luncheon? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long a time is allowed for luncheon ? — A. One and a half hours at the 
latest. 

Q. Then what happens after that? — A. Then the letter carriers go out on the 
next trip, probably at about 1.30. 

Q. And when does the letter carrier get back? — A. He gets out at 2.30 o'clock 
again. 

Q. And when is your day's work over? — A. Usually at about a few minutes after 
five. 

Q. (To Mr. Manhard, Toronto.) Is it the same with your trips ? — A. No, sir 
some of the carriers have to work until 6 o'clock. 

Q. Then the hours of work last until between 5 and 6 o'clock? — A. Yes. to be- 
tween 5 and 6 o'clock. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Then, in tbie case of Toronto it comes to this, that the day's work of a letter 
(carrier begins at from a quarter to half-pasit 6 and, with the exception of an hour and 
a quarter to a half for luncheon, it continues until from 5 to 6 o'clock at night? — A. 
Yes. An hour and a half is allowed, at the most, for luncheon. 

29a— 61 



962 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. That amounts to about ten and a half hours for the day's work? — A. It comes 
to pretty near that. 

Q. (To Mr. Guy) Do the same hours obtain in Hamilton? — A. Well, I might say 
that in Hamilton our hours are somewhat ditferent on account of the trains coming' 
in at different times. I do not think our carriers there have it quite as good as they 
have here in Toronto. 

Q. "What are the hours in a day's work ? — A. They arrive at 6.30 o'clock in the 
morning, get ready, and go out at 8 o'clock, and they are back again between 11.15 
and 11.30. They are at the office again from 1 to 1.30 o'clock, not earlier than 1 
o'clock. It is often 1 o'clock to 1.30 before they are through on the second delivery 
which leaves them from breakfast time until 2 o'clock until they get home to their 
dinner. They have to report to the office again at 4 o'clock in order to get ready to 
go out at 4.30 and it is from 6 o'clock to 6.30 before they are through and sometimes 
7 o'clock. 

Q. Then in your district the day's work would consist of from ten to eleven 
hours ? — A. From nine to eleven hours a day. 

(To Mr. Empey.) 

Q. Is it the same in London ? — A. In London, sir, there are six divisions that 
report to duty at 6.30 in the morning. The first delivery runs from 10.30 to 10.45, 
and we have to report for duty again at 12.30. We go out again on that delivery and 
come in again at 1.30 o'clock. We come in again at 2.30 and go out again at 3.30 
o'clock, and w|e are in again at from 5.30 to 5.45. There are six divisions whose hours 
are as I have mentioned and there are others whose hours cover more than that time. 

Q. Then practically the letter carriers in the three cities, Toronto, Hamilton and 
London, average about eleven hours to a day's work ? — A. That is about it. 

Q. The letter carrier is subject to all sorts and conditions of weather ? 

Mr. McMordie. — Yes. 

Q. He is exposed to rain and shine, heat and cold ? — A. No matter how hard it 
rains the letter carrier must get out. 

Q. Do you find any difficulty in insuring your lives ? — A. There are not very 
many of us, perhaps, can find the means for insurance. 

Q. But in the case of those that apply for insurance are thjey charged an extra 
rate because of their exposure to the weather ? — A. Not that I know of, sir. 

Q. Does the letter carrier break down in health and require to be retired ? — A. 
Twenty-five years is the outside limit for a man to stand the job. 

Q. The letter carrier is always on his legs and always exposed to all weathers ? — 
A. Yes, he is exposed to all weathers. 

Q. And you think the consequence of that exposure is that his health gets used 
up very quickly ? — A. If his health does not get used up pretty quickly his legs will. 

Q. And he has to be invalided ? — A. And he feels pretty tired. 

Q. You have spoken in your memorial about the subject of superannuation I — 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Considering the hardships to which tbe letter carrier is exposed do you not 
think ft would be desirable that some system of superannuation should be put into 
effect which would also make provision for the widow and orphans in case of djeath ? 
— A. I would think so, provided we could get such a thing. 

Q. If such a system could be adopted would you approve of it ? — A. It has been 
done in some other countries, for instance, in Germany. 

Q. You have referred to the service in England. Do you know that in England 
the letter carriers are given good conduct stripes as soldiers are in the army? — A. I 
know they do that, sir. 

Q. What would you think about that way of increasing the pay ? — A. I notice 

that in England the letter carriers are trying to have the stripes done away with 

because they think there is a certain amount of favouritism attached to the system. 

. Q. There are good judges for that kind of thing ? — A. I am not so sure of that. 



RQTAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 963 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. Do you think it would be better to treat the letter carriers all alike instead 
of adopting a system of stripes ? — A. I think so. 

Q. In your memorial you express the opinion that there are certain inequalities 
in the cost of living. Why should the cost of living in Hamilton be higher than in 
New York '. 

Mr. Guy. — I do not know why it should be so. I cannot say that, but nevertheless 
it is the case. We have it from the president of our board of trade and he surely 
would not make an assertion of that kind and allow it to get into the public press from 
one end of Canada to the other, unless he could substantiate it. 

Q. The only substantial endorsation would be that people have gone back to 
New York from Hamilton in order to live cheaper \ — A. Mr. J. E. Callaghan made 
the statement and he was backed up by Mr. Frank E. Close, president of the Duncan 
Lithographic Company. They are two of the largest manufacturers in the city of 
Hamilton. 

Q. I am aware of the increase of the house rent in Ottawa and my colleagues 
k:iow about the conditions in Montreal and Quebec. You say that in the matter of 
house rent the increase given as 36 per cent is not applicable to western Ontario. Do 
you know whether the u. crease from 95 per cent to 145 per cent, given here, is cor- 
rect \ — A. That, sir, ia right. 

Mr. Bolstox, Hamilton. — I might say that house rents in the last ten years 
have doubled in Hamilton Tluil is not from hearsay but actual knowledge. In 
some instances we know that house lent has not only doubled but trebled. 

Mr. L. E. Max hard. — With your permission, Mr. Chairman, I will read some 
statistics that have come under our notice in regard to house rents in Toronto, show- 
ing the great increase that has taken place. 

The Chairmax. — We would like to have the figures put in as evidence. 

Mr. L. E.'Maxhard. — I will read you the figures in question (reads): — 

' Thomas Smith; 366 Given street, six roomed house, fourteen feet front, year 
1897 rent $9.50; 1907, rent $20. 

f H. A. Ashmead, 16 Belmont street, six room house, year 1S97, rent $9; year 
1907, rent $23, and water extra. 

• William Gilmour, 89 to 109 Montrose avenue, six room house, year 1900, rent 
$9 ; 1907, $20 and $22. 

•Ill Bathurst street, year 1897, rent $8; 1907, $14. 

• 226 Farley avenue, year 1900, rent $7.50; 1907, $15. 
1 143 Tecumseh street, 1S98, rent $7; 1907, $13. 

' 226 Niagara street, 1899, rent $8 ; 1907, $18. 

'83, 85, 87 Mitchell avenue, 1899, rent $6; 1907, $18.' 

Mr. Guy. — I would just like to say with respect to the house I live in in Hamilton. 
It is in a row known as Wellington Terrace on Wellington street. It is in a very 
desirable row, and the houses are always rented; I have never known those houses to 
be idle. Eight years ago I paid for rent $8 a month and to-day the houses in the same 
row rent for $15 and are considered cheap at that. I can swear to this fact; it is from 
personal experience. 

The Chairman. — With the exception of house rents I notice that commodities have 
increased in price about equally all over the Dominion. Perhaps certain things are 
cheaper at one place than at another, but as a rule the increase has been the same all 
t»ver the Dominion. 

Mr. McMordie. — Do you mean meats? 

The Chairmax. — Meats, clothes, and all such things as that. 

Mr. McMordie. — They have increased 75 per cent in some cases. 

The Chairmax. — Yes, some articles have. 

29a— 61J 



964 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Mr. Mc^Iordie. — Sirloin steaks and such meats. You all know that; you have 
got to buy such meats yourselves. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. You have produced also, Mr. McMordie, a statement showing the conditions 
of pay governing the fire brigade, in the case of the ordinary firemen, which has been 
verified by the chief of the brigade? — A. Yes. 

Q. There is something analogous to your own case in the case of a fireman, because 
they also have to have uniforms? — A. Yes. 

Q. You also have a statement showing the conditions of pay governing the police 
force. This relates to the ordinary constables, I suppose ? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Verified in each case by the chief constable? — A. Yes. 

Q. Are the constables and firemen provided with more uniforms than are supplied 
to you ? — A. I do not know that they have more uniforms, but they are of better 
quality. 

Q. Better material ( — A. Better material, and the uniforms are better made. 

Q. How long does your tunic last ? — A. I put thje one I am wearing on in 
August. It was sent to be fixed up because it would not fit. This side used to hang 
down like this (illustrating), and would still hang down if I had not had a button- 
hole put in it. This is the way it sits (illustrating). The coat was down this far 
(illustrating), but was sent back and made a little better. In the case of the trousers 
they were too short and had to be pulled down. Even then fthey were not very respect- 
able looking, and I do not know that a man feels highly elated at wearing that kind 
of thing. It is not a very good material, and it is a worse fit, and I think, sir. if the 
Commission could arrange in some way that we could have our uniforms made locally 
— either that or let us look after the making of the uniforms ourselves, the same as 
they do in the United States — we could get something respectable and that we would 
look a credit in. The complaint as to fit and material is general all over. 

Q. Do you think if your association had this matter in charge, instead of the 
department, that you might do better? — A. I read a great many of the service papers, 
and I find out that in the United States the men are responsible for the making of 
their uniforms. It is the only country where there is no kick. There they get what 
they want subject to the rules of the department. 

Q. How long does your tunic last? — A. This uniform I only put on in August. I 
wore my old uniform as long as it would last because it was a better fit. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Who makes these uniforms? — A. I do not know. We are measured for them 
in Toronto and the clothes are made in Ottawa. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. You are all measured locally and the measurements are sent down to Ottawa? 
— A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You do not carry any mail matter by hand but always take a bag with you 
containing the letters ? — A. Yes, sir, we always carry a bag. 

Q. Have you gentlemen any further statement you would like to make before 
you retire ? — A. Well, sir, I have this statement that I would like to make : we would 
like to be put on a footing of equality with the senior third class clerks as to pay and 
promotion. We would also like the commission to djevise a day's work as near eight 
hours a day as possible, and we would like that some record — some proper record — 
of a man's standing should be kept and that record should be open to each individual 
at any time. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 965 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 
By Mr. Fyshe : 
Q. That is the record of each individual only S — A. Each man's record only. 
We would also like to see some kind of decent system of superannuation introduced 
bjecause we recognize that the old scheme is practically of no use. 

Q. You are simply drawing- your own money ? — A. Yes, and at the end of thirty 
years it would not give you a living. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. How many years have you been in the service ? — A. Twenty-three years. 

Q. You were contributing to the superannuation fund % — A. Yes, sir, under the 
old Act. 

Q. If you w(ere to die tomorrow what you have paid in would not benefit you ? — 
A. Not a cent. 

Q. It would be just the same as in the case of the contributions to the fund of 
the late postmaster, Mr. Patteson ( — A. Just the same. 

Q. Please proceed with your statement ? — A. I think that is all. What we really 
want is a proper system, of equality as to letter carriers and third class clerks. We 
claim there is no difference between the two classes of employees, or the two grades, 
in the office. We both handle letters, and if there is any difference lthe responsi- 
bility rests with the letter because he does the supervising work of a third class sorter 
and all that kind of thing. He has got to supervise the mail matter and take the 
responsibility of anything that may happen to be omitted but that is not applicable 
to the others or scarcely so. 

Q. If you lose a registered letter, or if by chance a registered letter gets astray, 
are you answerable for the contents ? — A. Yes sir, for the contents. We pay for the 
contents. 

Q. You pay until the letter is recovered ? — A. We pay until it is recovered. It 
may extend over two months but it is paid for. 

Q. You do not know of any errors that were not paid for ? — A. Not that I am 
aware of. 

Q. I suppose you would also like to see some scheme adopted whereby promotion 
might be insured ? — A. That is the idea, sir. We would like a definite system laid 
down as there is no system at present. If you happen to secure promotion at all 
you can only get it by working inside for eight or ten years and then going back and 
taking a reduction of a couple of hundred dollars and starting over again. There 
is no man, scarcely, that can afford to do that. 

The Chatrmax. — I see that the gentleman from Hamilton has something to say. 

Mr. jkOJoRDiE. — Before I sit down, sir, let me say that I have a telegram here 
from the letter carriers in Winnipeg. They are informed that you gentlemen cannot 
go to Winnipeg to meet them although they are very anxious that you should visit 
that city. They have asked me to represent them if you will kindly allow me to do 
so. I have no data to go upon more than a few items that were contained in the 
letter I received from them. Th)ey instructed me to represent to the Commission 
that the cost of living had increased 67% in the last seven years in Winnipeg, and 
that the allowance of $15 per month which they now rjeeeive as living allowance 
should be augmented to $25. The claim is made that salaries in Winnipeg should be 
at least 33% more than in the east to cover the increased cost of living there. I 
understand some gentlemen are coming down to represent the Civil Service in Win- 
nipeg and they will probably have something more to say on the matter. 

The Chairman". — You had better write your friends in Winnipeg stating that 
in view of the fact that we have to report to parliament early in the coming session 
it is utterly impossible for us to visit that city, but if they will be good enough to 
forward a memorial setting forth all the facts they desire to bring to our attention 
we will be very glad to consider it. 



966 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Mr. McMordie. — Very well, sir, I shall write to that effect. 

The Chairman. — I see that the delivery of a letter carrier is based on the popula- 
tion. The figure is generally about 700 ? — A. Yes sir. 

Q. In Hamilton I see the figure is 695, in Toronto it is 616 and in London 776. 
Is that the population for the greater area or a lesser area in places ? — A. That is 
worked out. There is one delivery for that number of people. You will see on another 
line of the memorial the number of population. 

Q. That is all right. Have ^you anything more to say ? — A. No sir. 

Witness retired. 



MEMORIAL OF THE FEDERATED ASSOCIATION OF LETTER CARRIERS, 

DOMINION OF CANADA. 

To the Honourable the Royal Commission, appointed to enquire into the conditions 
of employment and remuneration of the inside Civil Service of Canada. 

Gentlemen, — We, the members of the Letter Carriers Civil Service Association 
wish to testify to our general satisfaction upon the appointment of a commission to 
deal with matters affecting the service. We desire to express our confidence in the 
justice of your deliberations, and we are pleased to anticipate that your honourable 
body will extend to us the privilege of being heard as the representatives of the letter 
carriers of the Dominion of Canada, to offer to you such assistance as we may be 
able in the vast amount of information on which you arjs called upon to pass your 
final judgment. 

This association is composed of members of the carriers service in the several 
cities of the Dominion, and has a membership of 498 carriers. Th|e aim of the asso- 
ciation is to give moral and material aid to its members, and to improve their con- 
dition as letter carriers generally. We desire to present our views in a spirit of 
moderation, and our requests, we hope, without prejudice to the interests of the 
department. 

The position of a civil servant is generally misunderstood by the public. He 
practically gives up his life to the service of his. country; the training which the 
work gives him, instead of increasing his marketable stock of skill (although render- 
ing him more valuable to the state) unfits him for other employment — it is not pos- 
sible for him to transfer his services to another employer in thjs same class of busi- 
ness, and he is thus practically attached to the department for life, having once 
entered its slervice. The recognition of these important facts should be taken into 
consideration and reasonable opportunities should be afforded the officer to improve 
his position, so as to make the service attractive to the young and ambitious. 

Thjp letter carrier is also a citizen, and has to assume his share of the burdens 
and responsibilities of the civic community. Other classes of labour have their 
salaries adjusted every two or three years to meet increased cost of living, but tbie 
salary of the letter .carrier is practically the same for the past thirty years, except 
for a slight adjustment in 1902-3. He therefore feels with each succeeding year the 
growing difficulty to discharge his obligations as a citizen and so preserve the respect 
of the community of which he is a part. 

As a civil servant he must provide for the best interests of those dependent 
upon him out of what is paid to him from the public treasury. Under existing con- 
ditions, and the continuous increase in the cost of living, he finds the struggle of rigid 
self-denial greater with each succeeding year. It is with deep feelings of a personal 
interest that he views the creation of a commission to enquire impartially and thor- 
oughly into matters affecting: his conditions of employment and remuneration, con- 
fident in the ability of yonr honourable body to give them full and fair consideration. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 967 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

It is often urged that service under the state is a desirable thing, and carries 
with it advantages not enjoyed by the outside worker. Something may be said from 
that point of view when (as is sometimes the case) the state pays a proper sum for 
the services rendered, and provides its officers with reasonable opportunities to im- 
prove his position, but when the pay is at its highest point insufficient, and at its 
lowest actual poverty, the case becomes altogether different and creates a suspicion 
that the state is using its position as a monopolist unfairly. 

The fact also that the post office is a monopoly makes it extremely difficult to 
institute an exact comparison between any other class of workmen and ourselves. 
The poorest errand boy in outside employment has the prospect of himself becoming 
the possessor of a large business; the meanest labourer may become the large con- 
tractor, but the letter carrier, ieven though his loyalty and intelligence are beyond 
question, and even under the most favourable conditions of promotion he can never 
hope to rise beyond the reoeipt of a very limited income. These facta alone furnish 
an excellent reason why the ' post office ' should take its place in the first flight of 
employers. 

It has been proved many times that well paid regular work engenders in the wor- 
ker a respect for his employment which results in more efficient service being rendered - 
Obviously it is the duty of a monopoly (State or otherwise) towards its customers 
to provide the very best service possible, and contented workers are an absolute 
necessity to the conditions being fulfilled. 

We submit that next to low pay the lack of promotion causes most discontent, 
and the only true and sound economic remedy in the erection of the orue class of em- 
ployees to do all manipulative postal work indoor and outdoor. 

We therefore submit that carriers be placed on precisely the same footing as third 
class clerks as to compensation and promotion, as intimately related branches of the 
post office. 

All promotions should be on efficiency and merit and no favoritism of any kind 
pjermitted, and a positive method of recording the efficiency of carriers or clerks 
devised, such records to be open to inspection by the employees concerned. 

The carrier and clerical; service should be brought into closer co-operation, 
neither line of employment should be given advantage over the other in the way of 
remuneration, and positions and promotions in both cases should be equally acces- 
sible to every properly qualified employee. 

It should be possible to utilize every employee, clerk or carrier, as is most advan- 
tageous to the service, by placing these two classes of employees on an equal salary 
basis. 

Under existing conditions the service does not ofBer sufficient advantages to 
attract capable and ambitious men, the uncertainty of obtaining within a reasonab'e 
time a sufficient rate of compensation to afford a comfortable living and rhe lack of 
any definite scheme of promotion, unquestionably operate to the disadvantage of the 
service. 

Our proposal for unification is made with the sole desire to see a united and con- 
tented stervice. built upon common sense lines with due regard to efficiency, which 
offers sufficient advantage to attract capable and competent men. 

"We feel that the working force of the post office should be placed on such a basis 
as will makj? it unnecessary to require more than an average of eight hours daily 
service, or forty-eight hours per week exclusive of Sundays. 



General Question" of Superannuation and Retirement of Officials. 

In 1898 the Acts relating to superannuation of civil service was made inapplic- 
able, and in lieu thereof the Retirement Act was passed for the service. This pro- 
vided for a 5% reduction made from the salary of each civil servant to which the 



968 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

terms of the Act applied, with 4% interest compounded and held in trust until the 
retirement of such civil servant. 

Although this enactment was designed as a substitute for superannuation, its 
|effect has been to abandon the principle. The retirement fund cannot be said to do 
duty for superannuation, and is considered by the staff to be more in the nature of 
a savings bank account drawing 4%, and in no case can it be considered other than 
a forced contribution which employees themselves could invest at a greater rate of 
interest. 

The objects of superannuation as understood in Great Britain, her dependencies 
and several European countries, is to provide for the old age of faithful employees. 
The provisions of the Retirement Act falls far short of the object, as only the forced 
contributions of the employee is available, which in no sense can be regarded as suffi- 
cient for modern needs. 

We desire to place on record a more liberal scheme of superannuation, whereby 
an employee may have the privilege of retirement on the expiration of 25 years of 
service, or in a case of separation from tJjfe service through resignation or death 
prior to the attainment of the retirement limit, the return of the amount deducted 
should be paid him or his beneficiariies with interest at 4%. 

Vacations. 

In practically all other countries, Government employees are allowed thirty days 
annual vacation. The enormous growth of the postal business during recent years, 
the ever increasing physical and mental strain caused by the pressure of work has a 
depressing effect on his energies and is especially trying and unquestionably is a 
decided factor in causing resignations from the service. 

From the nature of the service its employees are required to work on holidays to 
some extent, while in other employment they enjoy thie Saturday half holiday, in 
most cases during the year. The present 12 days annual leave is not sufficient time to 
recuperate. This would add comparatively little to the expense of th<e service. Vaca- 
tions could be granted during that portion of the year when the work is lightest, and 
any additional expense incurred would be more than offset by the advantages to the 
department and the public by keeping its servants thoroughly alert mentally and 
physically, and be an added incentive to more faithful and efficient service. 

This Association desires to place before your honourable body some observations 
from the service in Great Britain and the United States. 

Any one familiar with the conditions of the Civil Service in Great Britain knows 
that the Government maintain at its own expense a pension system for the Civil 
Service in which all permanent employees participate. There is also established an 
eight hour day and a system of promotion for letter carriers, which includes inspec- 
tors, up to £280; supervisors, upper and lower section, £300 to £350. Postmasters 
at various rates of salary, mail officers at railway stations. &c. 3 and further the Gov- 
ernment is liable to its employees under the Act recently passed for the compensa- 
tion of injuries to workmen or servants in the discharge of thir duties. 



UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. 

Postmaster General George B. Cortelyou, in his report for the fiscal year ending 
June 30, 1906, recommjends the need of better salaries in the postal service, recogniz- 
ing also the increased cost of living, and citing the fact that competent men are con* 
stantly leaving the service to obtain better wages, and that the salaries paid in the 
lower grades offer little inducements to those seeking employment. An advance of 
$200 on the present salary of $1,000 is recommended, and clerks in the lowjer grades 
are advanced to the same scale of pay as the carriers. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 969 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Legislation was passed by Congress, February, 1907, carrying out the recom- 
mendations of the Postmaster General and providing for six grades of carriers and 
clerks, as follows :— 1st grade, $600; 2nd, $800; 3rd, $900; 4th, $1,000; 5th, $1,100; 
6th, $1,200. Carriers in first-class offices who have reached the fourth gradje are eli- 
gible for promotion to the higher positions in the local post offices ; clerks and carriers 
are also eligible for transfer from one service to the other. 

The First Assistant Postmaster General is now considering the inauguration of 
a system whereby the records of every clerk and carrier in the service will be kept on 
file, and every man can see for himself just what his official record is, so that no un- 
fair advantage may be taken of him on account of purely personal, political, religious 
or other reason?. 

The Keep Commission has reported to Congress in favour of a system of super- 
annuation for the Civil Service, which is to receive consideration by the next Con- 
gress. 

COST of living, 1896 to 1906. 

We feel it would be superfluous to go over the ground already dealt with by other 
branches of the serviqte as to increased cost of provisions,, clothing, shoes, &c. In 
the matter of house rents the increase, given a 36 per cent at Ottawa, is not applicable 
to western Canada, where all statisticians quotie rents as having advanced from 95 to 
145 per cent. Statistics by Professor Mavor (incomplete report) show an increase of 
44 per cent, and by Ella M. Keys, Toronto University, an increase in cost of living in 
workingmen's families of 58 per cent. We submit that the statements as to increase 
in rents will hold good in the large majority of the cities of Canada. 

COST OF LIVING IX HAMILTON HIGHER THAX IX NEW YORK. 

F. E. Close, president of the Hamilton Board of Trade, as reported in the Hamil- 
ton Herald of May 21, 1907, said that workmen found the cost of living in Hamilton 
higher than in Xew York; he knew of sevjeral skilled workmen who had returned to 
cities like Pittsburg and Kew York, because though wages had been increased by one- 
third in the past years, rents and the cost of living had increased so that they found 
they could do better on the other side of the order. 

This association desires to present hereunder, for the consideration of your hon- 
ourable commission, some statistics on the following: — 

1. Cost of living. 

2. Pension or superannuation, hours of work, sick and annual leave, as repre- 
sented in Great Britain and other countries. 

3. Conditions governing the Civil Service of the several provinces as to sick 
leave, &c. 

4. Salary paid police and fire brigade in principal cities of Canada. 

5. Statement showing population of principal cities; number of carriers to popu- 
. number of deliveries and officials, October, 1906. 

6. Ditto, as representing United States, similarly situated, officials. September, 
1906. 

Statistics on increased cost of living as collected by Miss Ella M. Keys. Mackenzie 
Fellow University of Toronto, from 1896 to 1906. 

Commodities as sold in St. Lawrence Market. — Potatoes, cabbage, apples, onions, 
turkeys, gees>e, hams, butter, eggs, beef, lamb, mutton, veal and hogs, an advance of 
64 per cent. 

Commodities, including some which are not sold in the market, not all have 
advanced in equal degree. The following will illustrate th • point: — Increase: butter 



970 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

49 per cent, beef 36 per cent, sugar 10 per cent, milk 13 per cent, bread 8 p;r cent; 
decrease: flour 5 per cent; increase: fish 25 per cent, potatoes 62 per cent, mutton 57 
per cent, eggs 67 per cent, lard 50 per cent, tea per cent, apples 22 per cent, oatmeal 
per cent, cheese 29 per cent; total increase 28 per cent. 

Increase of fuel 24 per cent, clothing 20 per cent, shoes 25 per cent, rent 145 p^r 
cent. 

Increase in chief items making up the cost of living in a workingman's family: 
Food 28 per clent, rent 145 per cent, fuel 24 per cent, clothing 20 per cent. 

Food 10 per cent, rent 5 per cent, fuel 2 per cent, clothing 2 per cent — an increase 
of 58 per cent. 

Professor Mavor, on increased cost of living as givf n in the Weekly Sun, Toronto' 
April 10, 1907 (incomplete report), gives the increase in cost of living for above period 
as 44 per cent. 

In Moody's Magazine for November, 1906, appears the following paragraph : — 

{ With the cost of living at the highest point for 25 years and rising rapidly, it is 
only fair that labour should receive a share of the present unprecedented prosperity. 

' Whatever may be the result of the upward movement of prices and wages, to- 
gether with the attendant insufficiency in the supply of labour of all kinds, it is 
undoubtedly true that the crest of the wave of prosperity has not yet been reached, 
and that the full report of the advance in wages has yet to be written.' 

Conditions governing superannuation, hours of work, sick leave and animal leave in 
the under-mentioned countries, as shown in the report of the Civil Service Com- 
missi, ,n of the United States, 189Jf, Theodore Roosevelt, Commissioner: — 

West Australia. — Pensions same as under Home Government. Hours of work, 7 
per day. Amount of annual leave with pay, 6 wejeks. _J3ick leave not limited. 

Austria-Hungary. — Pension grades : 10 years, one-third active salary ; 15 years, 
three-eights, up to 40, when pension is full salary. Hours of work, 9. Annual leave 
with pay, 3 to 6 weeks. Sick leave with pay, 1 year. 

Brazil. — Pension, after 30 years' service, full pay; an employee may also retire 
after 10 years with proportional allowance. Hours of work, 5. Annual leave with 
pay, 15 days. Sick leave, 6 months full and 6 months half pay. 

France. — Pension one-sixtieth part of salary multiplied by total number of years' 
service. Hours of work, 7. Annual leave with pay, 15 to 30 days. Sick leave, 3 
months full and 3 months half pay. 

Great Britain. — Pension, forty-sixtieths of actual pay. Hours of work. 7 to 8. 
Annual leave with pay, 14 to 48 day3. Sick leave, 6 months full pay and 6 months 
half pay. 

Holldxnd. — Pensions, one-sixtijeth of average annual salary, computed on last three 
years of service. Hours of work, 5 to 8. Annual leave with pay, 2 to 4 four weeks. 
Sick leave pay not limited. 

Japan. — Pension right to retire after 15 years' servic^ on one-fourth of annual 
salary; additional amount for each year up to the age of 60. Hours of work, 8. 
Annual leave with pay, 36 days. Sick leave 90 days full pay, 45 days half pay. 

Prussia. — Pension up to three-fourths of active salary. Hours of work, 7 to 8. 
Annual l(eave with pay, 1 to 4 weeks. Sick pay leave, up to 2 years. 

United States. — 1907, Keep Commission report favourable to adoption of pension. 
Hours of work, 8. Annual leave with pay, 13 to 30 days. Sick leave with pay, 30 
days, which may be. under exceptional circumstances, extended to 60 days. 

Russia. Pension, half pension on 25 years' service, full pension on 35 years' ser- 
vice; pension right extended to wife and family. Hours of work. 6. Annual leave 
with pay. one month under conditions. Sick pay, 4 months to 1 year. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX TnE CIVIL SERVICE 971 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Statement showing Conditions governing the Civil Service in the several Provinces 
of the Dominion as to Sick Leave. 

Alberta. — Sick leave with pay each year discretionary. 

Saskatchewan. — Section 28, chapter 5, 1906: The head of a department may (in 
case of illness or other pressing necessity) grant extended leave, not exceeding 12 
months, and on such terms as the Lieutenant Governor in Council may think fit. 

Manitoba. — That no definite amount of sick leave is allowed each year. I do not 
know of any civil servant being deducted salary while absent through sickness, not- 
withstanding the length of that sickness. 

Ontario. — Section 26 of the Act respecting the Public Service of Ontario provides 
that in case of illness or other pressing necessity, extended leave of absence not ex- 
ceeding 12 months, may be granted on such terms as the Lieutenant Governor in 
Council may think fit. 

Quebec. — The Attorney General is of the opinion that there is no statute law re- 
lating to the question submitted. (Through other sources we are informed sick pay 
is allowed up to one year.) 

Nova Scotia. — No regulation respecting the annual leave or sick leave allowed 
each year with pay to civil servants. However, it is customary to allow a vacation 
of two weeks. 

New Brunswick. — Amount of sick leave allowed each year with pay, 2 to 3 months, 
but no set time fixed. 

Prince Edward Island. — No law or fixed rules regulating sick leave; given accord- 
ing to circumstances. Three or 4 months has lately been granted. 

Statement showing Conditions of Pay governing the Police Forces of the under- 
mentioned Cities of the Dominion of Canada. 

Victoria, B.C. — Minimum salary, $720; after 12 months, $810. J. M. Langley, 
chief constable. 

Vancouver, B.C. — Minimum salary, $720; after 3 years, $840. C. Chisholm, chief 
police. 

Winnipeg, Man. — Minimum salary, $720; second year, $840; third year and there- 
after, $960. 

London, Ont — Minimum salary, $600; after 3 years, $850. W. T. P. Williams, 
chief constable. 

Hamilton,. Minimum salary, $641.65 ; after 1 year, $762.82 ; after 6 years, $797.50. 
Alex. Smith, chijef constable. 

Toronto.— Minimum salary, $700; after 1 year, $800; after 5 years, $900. H. J. 
Grasett, chief constable. 

Statement showing Conditions of Pay governing the Fire Brigades in the under- 
mentioned Cities of the Dominion of Canada. 

Victoria, B.C. — Minimum salary. $660; maximum, $840. 

Vancouver, B.C. — Minimum salary, $648; after 2 years, $880. Norman Lee, Sec. 
Vancouver Pire Department. 

Winnipeg. — Minimum salary, $720; after 3 years. $990. J. E. Buchanan, Chief 
of Pire Department. 

London. — Minimum salary, $511 : after 2 years, $650. 

Hamilton. — Minimum salary. $480: maximum, $720; time to reach maximum. 4 
years. A. B. TenEyck, Chief Pire Department. 



972 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Toronto. — Minimum salary, $450; maximum, $850; time to reach maximum, 5 
years. E. Coatsworth, Mayor. 

Statement showing Population, Number of Carriers an City Delivery, 'Number of 
Deliveries with Population served by each Carrier, and Number of Population io 
each single Delivery.. .Official information, October, 1906. 

Montreal. — Population. 502.000; carriers on city delivery. 125; two deliveries, 15 
men; three, 21; four, 61; five, 10; six, 18. One carrier to 4,016 of population; one 
delivery to 1,014 of population. 

Toronto. — Population, 300,000; carriers on city delivery, 130; two deliveries, 3; 
three, 87; four 10; six, 30; one carrier to 2,307 of population; one delivery to 616 
of population. 

Winnipeg. — Population, 100,000; carriers on city delivery, 53; two deliveries, 
42; three deliveries, 3; five deliveries, 8; one carrier to 1,886 of population; one 
delivery to 952 of population. 

Hamilton. — Population, 65,000; carriers on city delivery, 35; two deliveries, 6 
three, 23; four, 6; one carrier to 1,857 of population; one delivery to 695 of popula 
tion. 

Ottawa. — Population, 67,000; carriers on city delivery, 37; two deliveries, 7 
three, 30; one carrier to 1,811 of population; one delivery to 644 of population. 

London. — Population, 45,000; carriers on city delivery, 26; two deliveries, 20 
three deliveries, 6; one carrier to 1,731 of population; one delivery to 776 of popula 
tion. 

St. John. — Population, 50,000; carriers on city delivery, 24; two deliveries, 24 
one carrier to 2,0S4 of population; one delivery to 1,042 population. 

Vancouver. — Population, 50,000; carriers on city delivery, 23: two deliveries, 17 
three, 6; one carrier to 2,174 of population; one delivery to 961 of population. 

Victoria. — Population, 28,000; carriers on city delivery, 12; two deliveries, 12 
one carrier to 2,333 of population; one delivery to 961 of population. 

UNITED STATES OFFICIAL INFORMATION, SEPTEMBER, 19l>6. 

Statement Showing Population, Number of Carriers of City Delivery, with Number 
of Population to each Carrier, also Number of Population to each Single 
Delivery. 

Detroit, Mich. — Population, 400,000; carriers on city delivery, 247; men on two 
deliveries, 127; three, 48; four, 7; five, 35; one carrier to 1,836 of population; one 
delivery to 603 of population. 

Cleveland, Ohio. — Population, 480,000; carriers on city delivery, 274; men on two 
deliveries, 200; three, 15; four, 13; five, 46; one carrier to 1,752 of population; one 
delivery to 660 of population. 

Washington, D.C. — Population, 320.000; carriers on city delivery, 212 men; on 
two deliveries, 38; three, 141; four, 29; six, 4; one carrier to 1,509 of population; 
one delivery to 594 of population. 

Buffalo, N.Y. — Population, 390,000 ; carriers on city delivery, 242 lr.en ; two 
deliveries, 59; three, 130; four, 25; live, 26; one carrier to 1,611 of population; one 
delivery to 528 of population. 

Rochester, N.Y. — Population. 186,666; carriers on city delivery, 116 men; two 
deliveries, 80; three, 16; four, 20; one carrier , to 1,609 of population; one delivery 
to 648 of population. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 973 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Oswego, X.Y. — Population, 23,000; carriers on city delivery. 13 men; two de- 
liveries. 2; three, 11; one carrier to 1,769 of population; one delivery to 022 of 
population. 

Bay City. Mich. — Population, 48.000; carriers on city de.ivery, 27 men; two 
deliveries. 20; three, 2; four, 5; one carrier to 1,777 of population; one delivery to 
727 of population. 

Duluth. Minn. — Population, 70,000; carriers on city delivery, 36 men; two de- 
liveries, 22; three. 2; four, 2; five, 10; one carrier to 1,944 of papulation; one de- 
livery to 047 population. 

Grand Rapids. Mich. — Population. 117,000: carriers on city delivery, 75 men; 
two deliveries, 47; three. 4; four. 16; five. 7: six. 1; one carrier to 1,894 of popula- 
tion; one delivery to 554 of population. 

Quincy, III. — Population. 40,000; carriers on city delivery, 26 men; two deliveries, 
14 : three. 3 : four, 6 ; five. 2 : six, 1 ; one carrier to 1,538 of population : one delivery 
to 519 of population. 

Concord. N.H. — Population, 21,000; carriers on city delivery. 16 men; three de- 
liveries, 13 ; six, 3 ; one carrier to 1,311 of population ; one delivery to 369 of popula- 
tion. 

Troy. N.Y. — Population, 76.5 89; carriers on city delivery, 40 men; two deliveries, 
18; three. 4; four, 18; one carrier to 1,915 of population; one delivery to 638 of 
population. 

Cincinnati. 0. — Population. 475.000: carriers on city delivery, 2?0 men: two 
deliveries, 94; three, 43; four, 68; five. 19; six. 56; one carrier to 1,836 of popula- 
tion; one delivery to 461 of population. 

E. GUY, Pres. 
A. McMORDLE, Sec. 



SUPPLEMENTARY MEMORIAL FROM THE FEDERATED ASSOCIATION 

OF LETTER CARRIERS, DOMINION OF CANADA. 

To the Honourable the Royal Commissions, Civil Service of Canada. 

Gentlemen. — The Letter Carriers' Association desires to submit for your con- 
sideration the following observations in addition to their evidence given at Toronto, 
September 25, 1907 : — 

(a) That no other country pays its servants on a per diem basis (South Australia 
excepted). 

(o) That the system is vicious in the extreme as when a man enters the service 
of his country he gives up all his rights and privileges whereby he may better his con- 
dition in competition with his fellows to the Government. ' Such being the case ' it 
is the duty of the Government who has a monopoly of his services to so remunerate 
him that he can safely rely upon at least the means of subsistence ' Sick or Well ' 
while in their employ. 

(c) The present scheme in the opinion of the letter carriers never has worked 
satisfactorily and it is not possible to make it so, owing to the fact that so long as 
one class of employees are discriminated against in contra-distinction to other classes 
in the service ; first, in the matter of payment of salary; second, loss of sick pay, and 
third, curtailment of holidays, dissatisfaction and agitation is the result, and till the 
injustice is removed, and the service treated in all respects on a basis of equality on 
the above, dissatisfaction is bound to grow on what the staff considers to be grounds 
for agitation. 

The bonusing system is vicious in principle, in that it permits heads of depart- 
ments to lay hardships on the individual by not being recommended for the bonus, 



974 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

and sick pay, while it permits those of more recent appointment to receive theirs 
through political influence. 

(e) That it is an injustice to a man who has given the best part of his life to the 
service and because he may be unfit to be classed in a higher grade. To be degraded 
in place of being superannuated, thereby compelling him to drag out a miserable 
existence. 

(f) That under the present system a man may be absent through sickness for any 
length of time receive no pay, and the Government is under no obligation to super- 
annuate. 

(g) We therefore ask that a more liberal legislation be enacted embodying our 
contention and so doing away with the dissatisfaction that prevails at present and 
which cannot be for the best interests of the service. 

1. We therefore request that carriers be placed on precisely the same footing 
as third-class clerks as to compensation and promotion. 

2* All promotions should be on efficiency and merit, and a positive method of 
recording the efficiency of carriers and clerks devised, such records to be open to in- 
spection by the employees concerned. 

3. That eight hours be defined as a day's work. 

4. That a more liberal scheme of superannuation be enacted. 

5. That a carrier have the option of retiring upon his superannuation at the 
expiration of twenty-five years' service. 

6. That the annual holidays be increased to thirty days. 

7. That an increase in salary be granted, commensurate with the increased cost 
of living. 

(Signed) E. GUY, President 
A. McMORDIE, Secretary. 



Mr. R. Guy, President of the Federated Association of Letter Carriers, called, 
sworn and examined: — 

The Witness. — I beg to hand in a memorial to the Commission. 
(Statement read and marked as exhibit .) 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Do you desire to add anything to what has been set forth in your statement? 
■ — A. We believe we can substantiate every word that we have set forth in our memorial. 
We would ask especially to be placed on a yearly basis of salary with some definite 
scheme of promotion so that it will inspire us to do better work in our several offices. 
I believe it is in the best interests of the department to do that. I have noticed in my 
experience in the post office that many carriers have been called upon to do clerical 
work. I might say that in the Hamilton office we have some times as many as four 
or five doing clerical work and yet receiving letter carriers' pay. 

Q. And also deprived of their privileges? — A. Yes, sir. I cannot understand why 
that should be. You have given me the opportunity to stand before you and speak 
my mind, and I am very pleased to have that opportunity. I want to say that politics 
in the Civil Service of the Dominion of Canada is the curse to-day. If the Civil 
Service could be rid of the political system that exists, and that remark is applicable 
to both sides, you would build up a service that would be a credit to this young nation 
of ours. At the present time the foundation is not right; you are building on sand. 
Give the young men of Canada a chance to go into the post office and aspire to higher 



ROTAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 975 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

positions, and not hold them back, and I believe you would have as clever a class of 
men to select from as is to be found on the North American continent. As it is now 
the letter carriers are held back and there is no chance of promotion. "We can see ahead 
to say a salary of only six or seven hundred dollars a year. We must accept that or get 
out; that is all I can see to it. A great many young men from one end of the country 
to the other are going into other walks of life and are doing better. I believe it is in 
the best interests of the Civil Service that there should be some scheme of prom _<ti n 
whereby we can aspire to something worth while and get to the top of the ladder if we 
have the ability to get there. Thank you, gentlemen, for your kindness in giving me 
a hearing. 

Q. You stated that it is desirable to have some inspiration in order to do your 
work. Surely you do your work as a matter of duty and conscience at present? — A. 
Yes, sir, it is a matter of duty and conscience to do letter carriers' work and it is a 
matter of duty and conscience to do the work of the higher grades as well. 

Q. Exactly, but you talk as if it required some inspiration to do your duty, your 
daily round? — A. I did not mean that exactly. 

Q. The Commissioners do not think that, and I asked you the question in order to 
make the point clear? — A. As long as I am a letter carrier I am going to do my duty 
to the best of my ability and the best I know how. 

Q. You have brought up a subject which was not referred to in your memorial. 
Are there many letter carriers leaving the service now? — A. We have had, I think, 
five young men in Hamilton who have done so. I think I can safely say the young 
men referred to would have made excellent carriers. They only stayed a few months, 
and having sized up the situation, went back to the old employment again, thinking 
that it offered better chances of success than the public service. I might mention the 
case of two young men particularly. Mr. Stapleton was a very faithful carrier and 
would have made a good man but could not see anything to look forward to in the 
public service and he quit. So also did another young man, Mr. Dey, and Mr. Patter- 
son, and we have another young man in at present. 

Q. I suppose that also applies to Toronto; the younger men are leaving? 

Mr. McMordie. — I think with the younger men it is just the same. 

Witness retired. 



To the Honourable the Royal Commission now investigating conditions as they exist 
in the Civil Service of Canada. 

Gextle3iex, — The letter carriers of the city of Hamilton wish to thank you for 
extending the scope of your inquiry to the outside service, and respectfully submit 
the following for your consideration : — 

That the remuneration now paid letter carriers is entirely inadequate to meet 
the demands made upon us on account of greatly increased cost of living in the dif- 
ferent cities, brought about by the great influx of settlers, and the unprecedented wave 
of prosperity that our country has been enjoying for the last number of years. While 
we as Civil Servants are gratified to note the strides our country is making, yet we as 
a class feel thaU we are not sharing in that prosperity, as our salaries have remained 
practically stationary for the last twenty-five years. 

Regarding the laborious nature of our work, we would say, that through the great 
influx of population to our city, and the ever increasing volume of mail matter being 
received, not enough men being added to our staff to meet the ever changing condi- 
tions, that the life of a letter carrier, be he ever so robust, cannot hope to stand the 
present strain mentally and physicially for any great length of time. 

We would, therefore, respectfully request of you to recommend a redress of griev- 
ances, herein stated, also a definite scheme of promotion for letter carriers, with a 



976 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

maximum salary and status equal to that of a senior third-class clerk (i.e., a salary 
of $900 per year as a maximum), they being eligible to attain higher positions on 
showing ability and being able to pass examinations prescribed by tbe department 
to perform such duties. 

We do not deem it necessary to deal at any great length with proof of increased 
<co& of living, only to say, that the cost of living has easily doubled since the Carriers' 
System was established. We maintain that the purchasing power of $900 to-day is no 
greater than $600 was twenty-five years ago. But we feel sure that from your per- 
sonal observations, you are aware of the fact, that all classes from the lowest labourer 
to the most skilled mechanic, from one end of the Dominion to the other, have been 
advanced in wages from year to year. Our legislators, both Dominion and Provincial, 
have had their sessional indemnities increased very substantially, the reason set forth 
being increased cost of living. — yet the letter carrier's salary has remained stationary. 

In conclusion, in our humble opinion it would be in the best interests of the Pub- 
lic Service to grant the letter carriers a substantial increase, as it would be an induce- 
ment to a class of men to enter the service who under present conditions would not 
accept it, as they can do better elsewhere. 

On behalf of the letter carriers of Hamilton. 

Respectfully submitted, 

(Signed) ROBT. M. GUT, 

EDWARD RALSTON. 



Mr, M. M. Empey, called and sworn, and examined. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Have you anything to say to >the Commission ? — A. I beg to submit the mem- 
orial of the London Association of Letter Carriers. (Statement read and marked 
exhibit.) 

Q. Have you anything, beyond what is containjed in your memorial, to say as to 
the local circumstances ? — A. Nothing, Mr. Chairman. I think what has been said 
covers practically the ground in regard to tbe cost of living, superannuation, and so on. 

Q. And as to the day's work and all that ? — A. As to -the day's work and all that, 
Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. — Well, gentlemen, we are very much obliged to you for coming 
here and if, on thinking the matter over amongst yourselves, you find that anything 
has been omitted or overlooked that might strengthen your case we will be very glad 
to receive a supplementary memorandum. 

Mr. Guy. — We thank yon for the kind manner in which we have been received 
and we hope that the petitions and memorials which have been placed before you in 
our behalf will receive your kind consideration. 



MEMORIAL OF THE LONDON ASSOCIATION OF LETTER CARRIERS. 

To the Honourable the Royal Commission, appointed to inquire into the Conditions 
of Employment and Remuneration, of the Inside Civil Service of Canada. 

Gentlemen, — Whjen a letter carrier enters the service at the present time, he 
may be given to understand, by those in authority, perhaps by his friends who secured 
his appointment, that promotions would be made from the outside service, and 
perhaps in a year or two he would stand for promotion. But such is not the case, as 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 977 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

we all know that a man appointed a letter carrier remains one. The reason of this 
is because there is no definite scheme of promotion. There is nothing to spur him 
on to do his level best, whereas, if there was a scheme adopted by the department for 
the promotion of a carrier, he would look forward to the time, if he gave efficient 
service, to a position of importance and responsibility. 

Seniority, we think, should have the preference, and if a man fails in his examin- 
ation along the line of promotion laid down by the department, why the next senior 
man should step in, and if he succeeds where the other failed, he should certainly be 
promoted. It is only along such lines that the department can ever hope to have 
a first class civil service. 

What the service needs is a definite scheme of promotion, that can be held out 
as an inducement to a carrier, when he enters the service. Unless you can give 
a man positive assurance that faithful and efficient work will win for him, in due 
season, a material advance, over the low salaries paid at the outset, it will be impossi- 
ble to obtain the high grade employees, needed to handle our postal business, in the 
efficient manner desired. 

The question of compensation should be settled in such a manner, as will attract 
to the service, thoroughly competent men, and with this object in view, there should 
be a definite system of promotion for the carrier as well as the clerk. 

It should be an easy matter to assign a clerk to a carrier's duties, or a carrier to 
a clerk's duties, and to place them in such a manner as will be most advantageous to 
the department. But before this can be done, the unfortunate barrier that now 
exists between carriers and clerks must be broken down, by placing these two classes 
of employees on an equal salary basis. 



The Post Office Act as it affects the Letter Carriers. 

Grade " A " — We understand a probation period of six months at $1.25 per day. 

Grade " B " — On appointment being confirmed $1.50 per day for a period of two 
years or $469.50 per year. 

Grade " C " — At the expiration of two years $1.75 per day or $547.75 per year. 

Grade " D "—At the end of two more years $2.00 per day or $626.00 per year. 

Grade " E "—There is no specified time between Grades " D " and " E." They 
may advance you to grade " E " in a very short time, say three or four months. You 
then have the maximum salary, $2.25 per day or $704.25 per year. 

You can see at a glance, it takes a man entering the service, almost seven years 
to reach the maximum] salary. Grade "A" gives him only $391.25 per year- If we are 
to live respectable, educate our families, dress as ordinary people do and give our 
different churches a farthing or two, for support, how in the name of heaven, is a 
man going to do this on $391.25 per year. 

If he is ill, his pay is withheld, when of all times he should receive it, in order 
to meet his doctor's bill and other current expenses. And besides this, the department 
makes a grave error when they withhold one man's pay during illness and grant pay 
to another man, when the Act reads "All pay will be withheld during illness." If the 
law applies to one man on the carriers' staff, that his pay is to be withheld, it certainly 
should apply to all, irrespective of any pull or favour shown. 

In the year 1896 house rent in London, for the ordinary cottage, was $6-50 per 
month or $78 per year. 

In the year 1907 the same cottage rents, in the city of London, for $11 per month, 
or $132 per year. This is a difference of $54 in house rent. 

In 1896 pork sold on the London market for $4.25 per cwt. 

In 1907 pork sells for $9.25 and $9.50 per cwt-, a difference of $5 per^cwt. 

In 1896 good round steak sold for 8 cents per lb. Porterhouse at 10 cents per lb. 

29a— 62 



97& EOYAL COUUISSIOX OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

In 1907 round steak is 15 cents per lb. Porterhouse is 18 cents. This is a differ- 
ence of 7 and 8 cents per lb. 

In 1896 flour sold for $2 per cwt. 

In 1907 flour sells for $2.40 per cwt. This is a difference of 40 centg per cwt. 

In 1S96 butter sold for 15 cents single pound or 2 lbs. of butter for 25 cents. 

In 1907 butter is selling at 25 cents per lb. This is a difference of 13 cents 
per lb. 

In 1896 eggs sold for 10 or 12 cents per dozen. 

In 1907 eggs sell for 20 and 22 cents per dozen, a difference of 10 and 11 cents 
per dozen. 

In 1896 potatoes sold for 25 cents and 35 cents per bag. 

In 1907 potatoes are selling for $1 per bag, a difference of 75 cents for a bushel 
and a half of potatoes. 

In 1896 sugar sold for 25 lbs. for $1. 

In 1907 sugar sells, 18 lbs. for $1. Difference, 7 lbs. less of sugar for $1. 

In 1896 wood 3old on the London market for $6.40 per cord. 

In 1907 wood sells for $8.60 per cord. Difference, $2.20 per cord. 

In 1896 coal sold on the London market for $5.50 and $6 per ton. 

In 1907 coal sells for $7.50 per ton. Difference, $2 and $1.50 per ton. 

Letter Carriers Retiring. 

We would advise the Commission to recommend to the Government, the strong 
desirability of granting the carriers the privilege of retiring, after twenty-five years 
of service, upon hi3 superannuation or retirement allowance. 

Letter Carriers' Holidays. 

We would also strongly advise the Commission, that it is extremely desirable, on 
account of the arduous duties imposed on the carriers, that holidays of thirty days 
duration be granted him, every year. Give him time to fully recuperate his 'strength 
and he will give the department better service and amply repay them during the 
year. 

Letter Carriers' Uniforms and Footwear. 

That in the matter of all uniforms and footwear, we would advise that the car- 
riers be placed in control of all moneys for that purpose. 

We think it would greatly simplify this part of the department's control, by 
placing all orders for our clothing and footwear locally; thereby enabling every car- 
rier to leave his measure once every year for his uniform and footwear. As the 
matter now rests, it is almost impossible to procure a proper fit, and the majority of 
times we are never consulted in regard to our clothing, as to fit and workmanship, 
and in this regard our case is simply deplorable, and should be placed in a more satis- 
factory manner by the department. 

These are the views we humbly place before you; these are the main items which 
we have mentioned. There are other things in proportion, and it would be next to 
impossible to enumerate them here, suffice it to say, everything has advanced from 
45 to 50 per cent, and our wages have failed to correspondingly increase with the bare 
necessities of life. 

On behalf of the London letter carriers, 

(Signed) W. M. EMPEY, 

Recording Secretary. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 979 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

London, October 10, 1907. 
To Me. T. S. Howe, 

Ottawa. 

Sir, — May it please you to lay the inclosed memorial from those letter carriers 
who do riot belong to Federated Association of Letter Carriers or local organizations. 
I was appointed to meet the Civil Service Commission should they come to London, 
therefore I take this liberty of forwarding this memorial. 

Will gladly give reasons why we were not represented by delegate at Toronto, if 
required to do so. 

Hoping, sir, you will lay this memorial before the Civil Service Commission. 
I remain, 

Respectfully yours. 

(Signed) ROBT. A. LOCKER, 

Letter carrier, P.O. Dept., Ottawa. 

London, August 25th, 1907. 
To Civil Service Commission. 

Honourable Gentlemen, — May it please you to consider a memorial from the 
letter carriers who do not belong to the Federated Letter Carriers Association or any 
local association. 

During the years 1906-07, we made exhaustive inquiries among the letter carriers, 
and after due consideration have drawn these inferences, which we are sure will give 
entire satisfaction. By referring Honourable Gentlemen's attention to Civil Ser- 
vice List of Canada 1903, page 23S, chapter 28; an Act to amend the Post Office Act, 
assented to 15th May, 1903, Sessional Paper No. 30. 

This Act to remain precisely as it reads, with a few amendments. 

Pay Per Day. 

Section 3 amended to read : the salaries of those in Grade " A " shall be at the 
rate of $1.75 per day ; of those in Grade " B " at the rate of $2.00 per day ; of those 
in Grade "O" at the rate of $2.25 per day; of those in Grade "D" $2.50 per 
day; of those in Grade "E " at the rate of $2.75 per day. 

Annual Levae of Absence. 

Section 7 amended to read " every person mentioned in Section 1, shall be entitled 
each year to 22 days leave of absence with pay." 

Additional Leave or Bonus. 

That part of Section 7, from " He bonus," referring to additional leave 

or bonus, be struck out. 

Reduction in Grade. 

Paragraph 2, section 4, be struck out. 

Additional leave or bonus is now under full control of the postmaster. A register 
is kept of errors and irregularities and reference is made to this record when dealing 
with the question of granting our yearly bonus or promotion to next higher grade. 
We recommend suspension and an investigation in case of inefficient or unsatisfac- 
tory service or conduct. We also submit for your due consideration the most reason- 
able request ' that we be paid for sickness and when legally quarantined.' 

29a— 62£ 



980 ROYAL COMMISSION OK THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 
Salary of Superintendent 

Superintendent of letter carriers to be placed on same basis as second class 
clerks. 

Superannuation. 

A Civil Service Superannuation Act in lieu of the Civil Service Retirement 
Act of 1898. All letter carriers now under Civil Service Retirement Act to be re- 
funded the amount at his credit in the Civil Service Retiring Fund. Superannuation 
under new legislation to begin from 1st July, 1907. 

Cost of Living. 

Honourable Gentlemen, re increased cost of living which has been general. 
Evidently cost of living has increased and is increasing in all civilized lands. 
It is due principally, no doubt, to world-wide prosperity. Living costs more, partly 
because people wish to live better, but, mainly because prices for various reasons 
have been materially advanced. Especially so in rents, fuel, provisions and clothing. 
Probably the cause of high prices having the widest application is the vast increase in 
the supply and the resulting depreciation in the value of gold. 

Next in order may be suggested the prosperity which an abundance of good money 
has fostered. 

Thirdly, combinations great and small have taken advantage of these conditions. 
Charging what the traffic will bear is a principle of wide application. It obtains all 
over the world. It thrives upon the complacency of mankind. It is a great inflation- 
ist. The high cost of living is largely due to inflation of this kind and description. 

If gold is cheaper and other commodities are higher, wages, incomes must increase 
correspondingly or the pinch cannot fail to lead to discontent. 

The wage-earner who does not participate in this prosperity, whose earnings are 
fixed, and whose expenditures cannot be curtailed, must bear the brunt of important 
appreciation in the prices of commodities by retrenchment which must inevitably 
produce discontent. 

General Increase of Wages. 

Honourable Gentlemen, by referring you to the census as taken by a committee 
appointed on the advice and consent of the House of Commons from 1900-05, all 
wages of mechanics and all wage-earners had generally increased throughout Canada 
'of about thirty per cent. 

Strike Statement of the Bureau of Labour. 

Honourable Gentlemen, by referring you to the Strike Statement of the Bureau 
of Labour which has issued a summary statement of its report devoted to labour 
troubles, and while it is not easy to interpret much of the mass of statistics presented, 
some of the facts may prove interesting. The causes of strikes are thus classified: 
For increase of wages; against reduction of wages; for reduced hours. The strikes 
most successful were those for higher wages and against reduction in wages. 

Stated Salary by Legislation. 

Honourable Gentlemen, you will readily understand a letter carrier on a stated 
salary, ruled by legislation, can only be helped to meet this enormous increase in cost 
of living by an increase in wages by legislation. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 981 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Honourable Gentlemen, we humbly ask you to place a full commercial value on 
our class of work, hoping, Honourable Gentlemen, this memorial will receive your 
consideration- 

I remain, respectfullv yours, 

Signal," ROBERT A. LOCKER, 

London. Ont. 



Mr. L. E. Manhard. — May I submit a statement, Mr. Chairman, as to the cost 
of living and hours of work ? 

The Chairman. — Certainly. 

The Witness. — You have have had a memorial from the Federated Association 
of Letter Carriers and the one I desire to submit is the same up to the point of the 
cost of living as the other. 

The Chairman. — It can be filed as an exhibit with the other one. 

The Witness. — I have already given you statistice in regard to house rent and 
I have here other data with regards to the walks in the city, and the hours of labour. 
For instance, he is Alexander Fleming, Station C, "who works eleven hours, five 
minutes per day — 

The Chairman. — I think you had better file this statement with the Commission. 
It will receive every consideration. 

The statement filed and marked exhibit. 

The Witness. I have something also in regard to the cost of living. 

The Chairman. — I do not think you need go into that. We have received con- 
siderable information on that point applicable to the whole of the Dominion. 

The Witness. — I have two items in regard to the price of potatoes and 3uch like 
as we find it here. 

The Chairman. — You can embody that in a supplementary memo. 

The Witness. — Thank you, and in regard to coal as well. 

The Chairman. — Certainly in it anything you desire to strengthen your case 
we will be very glad to receive from you. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. Have you made any investigation as to the real cost of the uniforms you arte 
wearing? — A. No, sir. I did not think that was within our jurisdiction to inquire 
into that business. 

Q. Do you know what the government pays for the uniforms? — A. I do not know, 
sir. We know that we get a very shabby material as well as fit. 

Q. The uniforms do not wear respectably to the end of the period for which 
they are intended i — A. No, sir, they do not. Mr. Jamieson, of the city of Toronto, 
was making the clothing and supplying the material, but the Government had to take 
the contract away and supply the material themselves in ordfer to get anything like 
what was required to stand the wear and tear during the duration of the uniform. 

The ( 'hairman. — We will be very glad if you will send in to us anything of a 
supplementary character that you deem necessary for the strengthening of your case. 

Witness retired. 



982 ROYAL COUUISSIOX OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII.. A. 1908 

MEMORIAL OF THE LETTER CARRIERS OF THE CITY OF TORONTO 
AND PROVINCE OF ONTARIO. 

To the Honourable, the Royal Commission appointed to inquire into the conditions 
of employment, and remuneration of the Civil Service of Canada. 

This is a lengthy memorial, but as it is in almost every respect the same as 
submitted by the Federated Association the main part is omitted. 

We also beg to make a statement regarding hours of labour. 

Alex. Fleming, Sta. C. 11 hours 5 minutes per day, at an 8 hour day he works 
120^ days per year without pay. 

Isaiah Delong, Sta. G. 9 hours 44 minutes per day. Works 67 days, 5 hours, 
40 minutes without pay. 

R. H. Cox, H.O., 9 hours, 38 minutes per day; works 59 days. 

A. H. Round, H.O., 9.25 per day, works 55 days. 

P. J. Murphy, II. O., 9 hours, 5 minutes per day; works 42^ days. 

S. J. Ricb, H.O., 9.02 per day; works 39 days. 

D. Horvell, Sta. G. 9.35; works 61| days. 

D. B. Barnhardt, Sta. C. 10.45; 913 places of delivery; works 87 3-8 days per 
year without pay. 



August, 29th, 1907. 
e. coatsworth, esq., 
Mayor. 

Dear Sir, — I duly received your Worship's letter of the 20th inst., forwarding 
a communication from the Secretary of the Federated Association of Letter Carriers 
asking for information respecting certain civic salaries in 1897 and 1907. It was 
necessary for me to write to different departments for particulars, and the same 
baving come to hand I transmit them, as follows: — 

POLICE CONSTABLES. 

1897. 1907. 

1st Class Constables, per day $2 00 $2 46 

2nd Class Constables, per day 1 75 2 19 

3rd Class Constables, per day 1 50 1 91 

4th Class Constables, per day 1 30 Abolished 

FIREMEN. 

1st Tear Men, per annum $400 $450 

2nd Year Men, per annum 500 550 

3rd Year Men, per annum 550 650 

4th Year Men, per annum 600 750 

5th Year, and thereafter, per annum 675 850 

WORKS DEPARTMENT. 

Street repair men, per hour 17c. 22 2-9c. 

STREET CLEANING AND SCAVENGING. 

1897. 1907. 

Labourers, per hour 15c. $2.00 per day of nine 

Drivers, per hour 17c. hours, the rate per 

Senior drivers, 18ic. hour being thus 

about 22J cents. 

Herewith I return the letter of the Secretary of the Letter Carrier's Association. 

Tours faithfully, 

(Signed) R. T. COADY, 

Treasurer. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON TFE CIVIL SERVICE 983 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Division No. 118 of the Amalgamated Association of Street and Electric Railway 

Employees of America. 

Toronto, August 27, 1907. 
Mr. W. J. Mankey, 

Secretary Postmen. 

Dear Sir, — The wages we have received for the past ten years are as follows : — 

1897 15 cents per hour 1st year 16| cents per hour thereafter 

1902 18 " 20 

1903 18 " 20 

and free uniform added. 

1904 18c. 1st year, 20c. 2nd year, 21^c. thereafter and uniform 

1907 20 " 22 " 23J 

A raise in the 10 years of about 7 cents per hour. 

(Signed) W. D. BOBBINS, 

Secretary. 



Canadian Pacific Railway Company's Telegraph. 

From Winnipeg, Man. 23rd, 1907. 
To A. McMordie, 

420 Gladstone Ave. 
Meeting held resolution passed that you represent us before Civil Service Com- 
mission. 

Signed, 

Winnipeg Letter Carriers. 



Mr. E. Bolston, Hamilton: May I submit a few words from Hamilton? 
The Chairman : Certainly. 

Mr. E. Bolston, sworn and examined. 

By the Chairman : 
Q. What have you to say? — A. I am present, in conjunction with Mr. Guy, as 
one of the letter carriers under the old Bill that did not take up the new Bill. The 
Hamilton letter carriers in that position have asked me to come down and request you 
gentlemen for goodness sake to give us some redress, because we simply cannot live on 
$49 a month and raise our families, and clothe and educate our children properly. 
Speaking personally, Mr. Chairman, I have been unfortunate, three years ago, to lose 
my wife. She left me with two children. I could not afford to get a housekeeper on 
my salary and, therefore, I had to break up house. I sold my furniture and was 
boarding. I amj paying now $9.50 a week for board for myself and two children and 
if I had not been staying with my sister I would not have got it as reasonably as that. 
Now to clothe and educate my two children in any way at all I consider I cannot do 
it on my present salary; I am going behind hand all the time. I have been in the 
service close upon twenty years and I am not a bit further ahead than when I first 
started. There are twelve of us in that never took up the new Bill ; we are still under 
the old Bill. When the new Bill came into force we did not think it altogether right 
to give up the privileges we had enjoyed under the old Act, such as sick pay and the 
like of that. We thought it was too late in life for us to accept the new Bill and to 
give up those privileges we had enjoyed. We worked for a small salary when we first 
joined the service on account of the understanding that one of the privileges that we 



984 ROYAL C01WISSI0X OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

were to have was sick pay. I was deputed to come down and lay before your Honour- 
able body and ask you to try and do something for those of us who are under the old 
Act. Give us more pay. We are surely faithful servants. "We would not have been 
as long in the service as we have been if it were not so, and really under the advanced 
cost of living we cannot exist as things are at present. 
Witness retired. 



Mr. L. E. Maxhard: May I read details showing what it costs one man to live? 
The Chairman : Certainly. 

Mr. Mamiard : (Reads) "Correct average, cost per month for family of four: — 
Groceries $11 37 



Meat 

Milk 

Butter 

Insurance . . 
Equal to rent . 

Gas 

Coal and wood 
Newspapers . . 



5 64 


1 00 


1 12 


2 50 


, 20 00 


1 25 


4 50 


25 



$47 63 

The man referred to in this statement is Mr. James Gazey, of 77 Shaw street^ 
The statement means that his income is $48.25 per month and he pays $47.63, not 
including anything for clothing, boots, etc., living expenses- It leaves a balance of 
62 cents out of which to procure clothing and boots and meet sundry expenses. 

Mr. Rolston. — And to provide for sickness. 

The Witness. Yes, and to provide for sickness. 



Mr. W. W. Leak, Toronto,, called, and sworn and examined. 

By the Chaiitnan : 
Q. What have you to say '. — A. When I first came into office they stopped 
the statutory increase and by and by the Government brought in a new Bill, Bill No. 
106. When that Bill was brought in I was drawing as near as I can remember 
either $33 and something, or $35 and something, I would not be positive which 
amount it was. I read up the new Bill and I came to the conclusion that I would be 
very foolish to work for that $33 or $35 when I could get $52. So I accepted the new 
Bill, but I am still under the Superannuation Act but not under the Retirement Act. 
Unfortunately I have had some sickness in the last couple of years. Last July I was 
laid up with a bad knee. The doctor said it was caused by excessive stair climbing. 
I was laid up for ten days and lost my pay for that time. Then I was laid up with 
a bad attack of the grippe. My holidays, of course, had not come around so I took 
my Two weeks' holidays sick in bed and still lost three days and did not have a vaca- 
tion this year at all. Other men in tbe Toronto office who had been sick have received 
their pay although they are under Bill ~Ro. 106. I spoke to our assistant superinten- 
dent last week about the matter and asked him how it was. He said ' it is a question 
of pull.' I asked if my record in the past had not been as good as that of the men 
who had received sick pay and he said ' yes, and probably better.' Well, I told him I 
did not think it was a square deal. I said I thought there were several men in the 
office in the same position as I was ; they have lost their pay and some have lost their 
holidays. So it appears that unless a man can go outside and geit a pull with a poli- 
tician he must lose his pay and his holidays. I think those facts should be laid' 
before the Commission. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 985 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

The Chairman'. — I do not know anything about this case but upon returning to 
Ottawa I will take care to look into it. I should imagine that once in the service 
the same rules should govern all. 

The Witness. — I think so, and I thought for that reason I would bring the matter 
to your attention. 

Witness retired. 



Mr. W. Hammond, Toronto, called, and sworn, and examined. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Have you a statement to make to us ? — A. I am one of the poor unfortunates 
who are working under the new Bill. I was unfortunate a year ago to be sick for 
two weeks and my pay for that <time was deducted. I also had the extreme misfortune 
a year ago to lose my poor old father. I asked permission to be off for three days and 
I had some difficulty in getting off, and my pay was deducted for that time also. 
When I approached Mr. Lemon about the fact he said ' it is very unusual for you to 
come here and ask for pay. We cannot help your father, or anybody else dying. 
You will g-et your pay for the time you work.' I thanked him kindly for his gen- 
erosity. I think the practice of deducting a man's pay when he is sick should be 
looked into. There are some men who have got their pay when they were sick and 
other men such as myself who have not received one cent. 

Q. How old are you? — A. Twenty-nine years of age. 

Q. How long have you been in the servicje ? — A. Eight years. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 
Q. What salary are you getting now ? — A. $2.25 per day, with 5 per cent de- 
ducted. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Why do you not leave the service? — A. Well, if any of you kind gentlemen 
can get anything for me in the shape of book-keeping or clerical work I would be most 
happy to receive it and be paid wages in accordance with my ability and to take the 
same pay if I am worth no more. I would be quite happy to receive any position 
I could in order to better myself. That is all I have to say. 

sVitness retired. 



Mr. W. J. Maxkey, Toronto, called, and sworn, and examined. 

By the Chairman: 
Q. Do you wish to add anything to what has already been said? — A. I do not 
know that I have got much to state after all the gentlemen present have stated their 
case. I myself am under the old law for the simple reason that I could not see any- 
thing attractive in the new law. I have been in the service now close upon twenty- 
three years. I was asked whether I would not come in under the new Act. My an- 
swer was that I would not on account of the loss of pay through sickness, the loss of 
superannuation, and also the possibility of being degraded instead of graded as Bill 
106 distinctly states that men can be moved either up or down. I thought that it 
would pay me to take my chances along with a number of others under the old law. 
At the same time, Mr. Chairman, it is a pretty hard thing to be working under a 



986 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

salary that was adopted about thirty year? ago. The conditions of thirty years ago 
do not compare in any shape or form with those of to-day. If six hundred dollars was 
enough at that time we should certainly be paid $1,000 to-day — that is living in the same 
way, dollar for dollar, as we did at that time. My reason for making the statement is 
that on the other side of the line letter carriers start at $600 and go up to $1,200, and 
living on the other side of the line is no dearer than it is here. We have statistics here 
to prove that it costs as much to live in the city of Toronto as it does in almost any 
city in the United States. There may be a slight difference in favour of New York, 
Chicago and Boston, but as a general rule it costs as much to live in the city of Tor- 
onto as it does over there, and if the United States can see its way clear to pay its 
letter carriers $1,200 a year, there is no reason why Canada cannot hold up its hand 
along with the best. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the kind hearing you have 
given me. 

"Witness retired. 



Mr. G. Adams, called, sworn and examined. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. What do you desire to say to the commission \ — A. I am one of the unfortun- 
ates who are under the old Act. It took me eleven years to reach $600, and I find my- 
self to-day in just the same position as when I started. The reason why I did not 
take advantage of the new Act was simply because of the deduction when a man be- 
comes sick. And in superannuation there is a chasm between the old Act and the new. 

Q. You are pretty much in the same position as the gentlemen who have already 
spoken : you thought it better to submit to ills you knew of rather than to fly to others 
that you knew not of ?— A. Just so. I think we ought to be entitled to at least $1,000 at 
the present time. I have a memorial here to present to you, but I think the points 
have been pretty well covered already. The memorial is from some of the men who 
are under the old Act. 

The Chairman. — We will take your memorial and have it attached to the evidence. 
As I have said to the other gentlemen if there is anything further you desire to bring 
forward we will be very glad to receive it. 

Mr. Rolstox. — If we think of anything to supplement to what has been said to- 
day, we can forward it to you and it will receive due consideration? 

The Chairman. — Certainly 

Toronto, Oxt... September 25, 1907. 
To the Honourable Royal Commission, 
Civil Service, 
Canada. 

Hox. Sirs, — Your petitioners are grateful for the opportunity afforded them by 
the appointment of a Royal Commission to investigate into the salary question, they 
being confident of fair treatment, and they beg respectfully to plead especially for 
carriers under the old Superannuation Act who, by faithful and long service, have 
proved themselves capable and efficient servants of the Civil Service. They who 
have struggled through the low scale of wages from $360 to $600 per annum, taking 
from eight to eleven years to reach the same, and have not received an increase of 
salary for about ten years. We. Hon. Sirs, find that we are in about the same position 
financially as when we received our first pay, owing to the advanced cost of living and 
house rent. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 987 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Your petitioners would respectfully draw the Hon. Commissioners' attention that 
for three years the statutory increase of letter carriers were withheld, and would 
respectfully petition your consideration for recommending that we receive the same. 
Also that considering the great advance in the cost of living we respectfully petition 
that you recommend us for a reasonable increase in our salary, so that we may be 
able to meet the demands on our purse for the necessaries of life. The cost of a work- 
ingman's home in Toronto to-day cannot be provisioned for less than one dollar per 
day. House rent from fifteen tc twenty dollars per month, which practically takes 
the whole of our salary, leaving nothing for clothing, sickness or any emergency. We 
present to your notice the following bodies who have been favourably dealt with, 
viz. : The civic employees ; the Toronto fire brigade a few years ago received $675 
per annum, now receive $850 per annum. The Toronto police were paid $730 per 
annum, to-day receive $900. We believe that every civic servant has received a sub- 
stantial increase to meet the requirements of the time. 

We respectfully submit a few figures to show the great advance of goods (retail) 
which men in our station of life cannot exist unless we provide: 

1897. Cents. 1907. Cents. 

Bread 7 Lighter weight 10 

Butter, pound.. ., 12^ Butter, pound 30 

Eggs, dozen 12 Eggs, dozen 25 

Cheese, pound 10 Cheese, pound 16 

Flour, per 100 pounds 1.90 Flour, per 100 pounds 3.00 

Potatoes, per bag 50 Potatoes, per bag 90 

Milk, per quart 5 Milk, per quart 7£ 

Lard, pound 9 Lard, pound 15 

Steak, round, pound 10 Steak, pound.. . 16 

Lamb, pound 5 Lamb, pound 20 

Pork chops, pound 10 Pork chops, pound 18 

Coal, per ton 4.50 Coal, per ton $7.25 

Other commodities in proportion. 

We beg most respectfully to suggest that the Superannuation Act be amended so 
that we be allowed to retire after twenty-five years' service. We thank you for the 
kind opportunity of presenting our case, and beg to say that we regret that owing to 
the fact of no provision being made in the new Act for sick allowance, for the time 
a carrier becomes unfit for duty till he is placed on the superannuation list, is the 
reason we did not accept the Act. We feel that we can fully trust our case in your 
hands, knowing it will receive your kind consideration. 

Hon. Sirs, we remain, 

Yours respectfully, 

(Signed) W. H. BYTHELL, 
C. G. ADAMS, 
J. PHILLIPS. 



Toronto, September 25, 1907. 
Mr. Thomas Ball, Toronto, called and sworn and examined. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. What is your salary? — A. $2.25 per day. 

Q. How long have you been in the service? — A. Eighteen years past. 

Q. Like the letter carriers, you gentlemen of the mail transfer service wear a 
uniform? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You go with the mail car to the station, do you? — A. Bight to the station. 
We work with the railway mail service, and transfer mail from one car to the other. 



988 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. You take mail matter from the mail car and put it into the postal car to come 
to the post office 1 How many men are doing that work here? — A. There are four of 
us. 

Q. How many stations have you got here? — A. Only one — the Union station. 

Q. What are your hours \ — A. One week we work eight hours and the next we 
average from ten to eleven. 

Q. What hours are you working this week?— A. This week I go on at 2 o'clock 
and stay until every train is in and has gone, and that will be half past eleven at 
the earliest. 

Q. That is to say. you go down to the station at 2 o'clock and work until half past 
eleven at night '. — A. Yes. sir. 

Q. Do you take any time off that for meals '. — A. If you can make a quarter of 
an hour or so you may. 

Q. And what are your hours next week? — A. I go down at six o'clock in the 
morning and work until two. 

Q. Xo trains arrive between half past eleven and six o'clock in the morning? — 
A. X". sir; not if all the regular trains are in. 

Q. Ami £2.25 a day is the highest pay you can get? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You get your uniforms and all that kind of thing? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What do you lhi?k jou ought to receive, Mr. Ball? — A. What I think we 
should get is the same rate of salary as is paid in the United States for the same 
kind of work. 

Q. What does that amount to? — A. They start over there at $600 a year and 
reach a maximum of $1,200. 

Q. How long do yen say you have been doing this work? — A. For eighteen years 
past. 

Q. Then you are cue of the officials under the old Superannuation Act? — A. 
Yes sir. I am under the Superannuation Act. 

Q. Have you got anything else to say? The Commissioners have gone into this 
question pretty thoroughly? — A. I think that considering the nature of the work — 
the responsibility and the risk of accidents climbing in and out of cars that we should 
be paid our salary when off work or through accidents. I do not see anything wrong 
in that because I claim there is no corporation, no business house, in Canada, to-day, 
it' a man is doing their work would deduct his salary if he was off sick. There is no 
house in the city of Toronto to-day of any standing that would do that, more especially 
in the case of employees that handle, as we do, so much money. There are thousands 
of dollars that are carried in these mail cars and go through our hands. I also think 
thai as we work on Sundays and public holidays we should for those services be 
allowed either extra holidays or pay us for extra time. 

Q. Which would you rather be, a letter carrier or a transfer man? — A. You are 
asking something I cannot tell you. 

Q. A letter carrier is constantly going all over a district, mounting stairs and 
all that kind of thing while you are passing constantly between one car and another? 
— A. I do not know anything about a letter carrier's work because I never carried 
letters. 

Q. Although you wear a uniform just the same? — A. I am not competent to 
speak on the subject. 

Q. How did you happen to be made a transfer man? — A. I applied for the 
position, there was a vacancy, and I got it. 

Q. Both of you classes of men have the same exposure to weather ? — A. Yes, sir, 
we are exposed to all kinds of weather: we have got to be. If we are not on duty 
the work is not done. 

Q. I suppose the conditions are just the same with your friend? — A. Just the 
same. sir. 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 989 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. Is there anything else you would like to tell us ( — A. I think the matters I 
have spoken of are the two main items. 

Q. If anything occurs to you later in the way of supplementing your evidence 
we would be glad to hear from you ? — A. I have put my views in writing if you choose 
to accept it. If we could get an increase I think we would be perfectly satisfied. 

Statement produced and read and marked exhibit. 

The Chairman — This will be attached to the evidence as an exhibit. Now have 
you anything further to say? — A. There is one thing I think about in regard to 
the cutting of salaries. I think if the government want to improve the service and 
attract a good class of men to it, it will not be done by paying low salaries. I do 
not think the new Act is going to improve the service. You cannot hire a man who 
is worth anything for $1.25 a day. Why men are paid 25 cents an hour for sweeping 
the streets of Toronto. You cannot hire a teamster for less than $12 a week or even 
get a man to pile lumber for less than 25 cents an hour. Yet the Government expects 
men to handle letters and money and valuables and pays them less than men are paid 
for sweeping the city streets. I do not think that is consistent. I do not wish to 
take up your time too much, but if the Government are going to improve the tone of 
the service and get good men they must pay them more money. Take myself, for 
example, it may be said ' you cannot make as much money outside.' Maybe I could 
not. But take the case of men like my friend and myself who go into the service 
young and devote our whole lives to it, if we are not good for anything else outside 
then I claim they should pay us a fair salary. When they want men to come in and 
devote their time to the public service the least they can do is to pay at least superior 
salaries to outside employers. I think that is about all I have to say. 

Witness retired. 

Toronto, Sept. 25, 1907. 

To the Commissioners for Investigating salaries of Civil Service of Canada. 

Gentlemen,— The transfer agents attached to the Eailway Mail Service, Post 
Office Department, desire to make application for an increase in salary based on th? 
increased cost of living. I do not think it is necessary to trouble your honourable 
body with any unnecessary remarks on this subject ; but take two items alone, rent 
and provisions, both of which have doubled in the last five years, which fact is known 
to every person who pays rent and is trying to raise a family. 

We think that considering the arduous and responsible nature of our duties, as 
we transfer all classes of mail matter, registered letters and papers, that we should 
be paid as well as the agents in the United States where they start at $600 and end 
at $1,200 per annum. We also think that we should be paid overtime after putting 
in eight consecutive hours of duty, and also time and one-half for Sundays and all 
public holidays. We think thait it is not at all fair, that no matter from what cause, 
accident or illness, that our salary should be stopped. 

If you will kindly give this matter your serious consideration and action, you 
will oblige*' us very much. « 

I have the honour to rjemain, 

Your most obedient servant. 

(Signed) . THOMAS BALL, 

For Transfer Agents, Ontario. 



Mr. James F. Harper, called, and sworn, and examined. 

By the Chairman'. 
Q. What are your hours? — A. My hours are anywhere from ten to eleven and 
sometimes twelve, according to train arrivals. 



990 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. Like Mr. Ball, do you have one set of hours one week and another set of hours 
another week? — A. No, sir, I am on day duty. 

Q. You do not take night duty every alternate wjeek ? — A. No, sir. 

Q. You cannot leave a station whilst on duty ? — A. Not during that time. If 
the trains are not in we have to wait for them. 

Q. At what hour does the first train come in that you have to attend to? — A. 
The first train is at 7.30. 

Q. And the last train ? — A. Is due to leave at 11.30 and the next train arrives 
at 12.30, and by the time all the letters are sorted it is at least 6.30. That would be 
ten hours on a regular ordinary clay, but at other times, especially during the winter 
months when trains are late, it is impossible to leave; the trains must be attended 
to. 

Q. If the trains are late you may be on duty for twelve hours? — A. Yes, sir, 
about that. 

Q. Is there anything else you wish to say ? — A. I do not think there is anything 
else to supplement further than that I have stated my reasons for not accepting the 
new Act. My interpretation of that Act was that if there was any superannuation 
attached to it it would only qualify up to the time of the acceptance of the new Act 
and from that time on you would receive simply the retiring allowance. Now I con- 
sider that the position of transfer agent requires mental activity and requires vcrv 
possibly the exercise of thie man's own judgment in transferring and despaitch'ng the 
mails. You will understand that there is a schedule for all train connections but this 
schedule cannot always be worked out for the reason that trains b)eing late calls for 
the mails to be despatched by another route. We have to exercise judgment in these 
matters and if we make mistakes we hear of it. If the mails are carried properly 
we have nothing said but on many occasions we have great difficulty in re-sorting 
mails so that they may reach their destination by the first train. We have to undergo 
an examination on train connections and our duties and the po3ition at Hamilton 
previous to my appointment as day transfer agent was held by a mail clerk. At that 
time and for many years previously he received $S00 for performing the duties. Now 
those duties have been doubled, the hours have been lengthened, and yet I do not 
receive even the salary that he received at that time. 

Q. Did he perform the duties of railway mail clerk besides ? — A. He performed 
the same duties which I am now discharging at the present time. In addition to 
that I have to dispatch over 500 letters from the various mail services and put them 
on the proper train. 

Q. There were not so many trains in those days when your predecessor was dis- 
charging the duties ? — A. Not so many trains in those days. 

Q. Did your predecessor in addition discharge the duties of a railway mail 
clerk? — A. No, sir, he did not do any work in connection with the railway mail ser- 
vice other than those performed by myself. 

Q. What became of him? — A. He went from that position on to the road, and 
he is now superannuated. 

Q. You have been transfer clerk for twenty-three years? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you find that the work becomes monotonous? — A. I find it becomes a 
greater hardship as the trains and the mails become more numerous. The mails have 
more than doubled, and while there has been no increase in salary the position has 
become a very important one. The superintendent of the department can easily verify 
the statement that the transfer of mails at this station is a very important position. 

The Chairman. — Well, Mr. Harper, we are very glad to hear you, and, as I said 
to Mr. Ball, if there is anything of a supplemental character that you wish to add 
we will be very glad to receive it. 

The Witness. — I am the only transfer agent, I believe, in our division that is 
under the old Bill. Of course, had I accepted the new Act as far as the salary was 
concerned 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 991 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

The Chairman. — I might say. Mr. Harper, that the circumstances on that point 
have been fully set forth here, and we have heard some of the letter carriers who 
remained under the old Act rather than come in under the new. When we come to 
consider the matter we will take up your case as well as the others. You say you are 
the only transfer agent in your division under the old Act 1 

The Witness. — To the best of my knowledge, I am the only transfer agent under 
the old Act, and I think that if the duties I performed ten or more years ago were 
worth $600, they should be worth $1,000 to-day: and that is not taking into considera- 
tion any extra labour I am called upon to perform. 

Q. That is simply bearing in mind the increased cost of living ? — A. The increased 
cost of living; and, as I say, that does not take into account the extra duties per- 
formed. 

Witness retired. 



MEM OKI AL. 

To the Chairman and Members of Royal Commission re salaries: 

Hox. Sirs. — I hereby respectfully make application to your board for a recom- 
mendation on an increase in salary. 

I was appointed mail transfer agent at Hamilton station October 1, 1884, at a 
salary of $600, my present salary, enjoying the full privilege of superannuation. 

An amendment to the Civil Service Act made provisions for an increase in salary, 
but in order to accept this privilege it was necessary to surrender my rights to sick 
pay and full superannuation. To one who had rendered services to the department 
for so long a period this proved a very serious consideration, and more especially to 
me who is so cognizant to the many fatalities and mutilations which befall those 
employed in connection with railway mail service, my duty calling me to continually 
enter and leave cars, very often while in motion, in order to make connections on a 
moment's notice, owing to the irregularity of train time. I did not surrender my 
claims under the old Act. fearing that at any moment I might meet with a mishap 
which would unfit me for service, together with the fact that by my acceptance of the 
new Bill I must assume the position of day pay, and should I. through sickness or 
mishap, be rendered unable for service I would not receive any pay. ' Good times ' 
have very much increased the cost of living in cities, rents have gone up in Hamilton 
tremendously, more than doubled in some cases. All manner of food and every house- 
hold necessity have been materially increased in price, so much so that $600 ten years 
ago was equal to $1,000 at the present time. 

This compared with the time I entered the service renders it impossible to do 
justice to my family, even in the common necessaries of life, and more especially does 
not permit of making provisions for them should I at any time through sickness or 
accident become incapacitated. 

I am on duty every day in the year, including Sundays, and full time on all 
statutory holidays, for which I receive no extra pay. Tbe duties required have more 
than doubled since I entered the service, and the great bulk of mails and number of 
trains to meet are steadily on the increase, while the salary has not increased in 
eighteen years with me. 

Trusting in this you will agree with me, and in so doing make good the con- 
clusion by recommending me such increase in salary as you deem sufficient. 

I remain, 

Tour obedient servant. 

(Signed) JAMES E. HARPER, 
Mail Transfer Agt., G.T.R. Sta., Hamilton Ont. 



992 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Hamilton, Ont., September 28, 1907. 
J. M. Courtney, Esq., 

Chairman Civil Service Commission. 

Hon. Sir, — Taking advantage of your kind offer to forward in writing any fur- 
ther evidence affecting the conditions of mail transfer agents, respectfully beg to 
supplement my memorial with a few facts. During my twenty-three-year service, I 
have not been fined once or reprimanded for any neglect of duty. I have reasons to 
believe I am capable of rendering good service in cases of emergency, and in this am 
credited with making few mistakes. I am impressed with the idea that in Govern- 
ment service salaries should be advanced along the lines conducted by commercial 
institutions, that is, a man should be paid for what he is worth, and if capable in 
the discharge of his duties his salary should be advanced accordingly, and his only 
pull should be merit. This would result with some degree of satisfaction to the em- 
ployee and at the same time raise the standard of the service. At Hamilton Station 
two transfer agents perform the work day and night, whereas if a third man was ap- 
pointed the hours might be easily adjusted with eight each. Personally, I find I am 
no better off financially than when I entered the service. Seven years ago I rented 
a 11-roomed house for $15 a month, by keeping a few roomers it gave me a cheap 
rental, notwithstanding the extra cost for light and fuel. It was only a short time 
when the rent gradually increased from $15 to $35 a month, forcing me to vacate a 
month ago to occupy a house with only five rooms and no conveniences, at $10 a 
month, and I find it impossible to exist on $10 a month, my present salary. If my 
superannuation was only available it would be no trouble to me in making a great 
deal more than I now receive, and not work every day at that. ' Any man who is 
willing to dig at these times can easily find water. If permitted to serve the depart- 
ment twelve more years, I may not be able to do as well at my then advanced age. 
In the 23 years' service my average time off duty through illness or accidents have 
not exceeded one week a year. In this, however, no man knows what is in store for 
him, and for that reason I could not afford to accept the chances of the per diem allow- 
ance and loss of superannuation by accepting the new Bill. I only wish to add that 
I have performed the duties assigned to me during my long service with earnestness 
and efficiency, and have no hesitation to make reference to any of my superior officers 
as to my qualifications. 

Hoping to receive the consideration of your honourable board, 
I remain, your obedient servant, 

(Signed) JAMES F. HARPER, 

Mail Transfer Agent, Hamilton Station. 

P.S. — Beg to suggest that after, say fifteen years service, transfer agents be ad- 
vanced to full maximum new schedule, provided they are capable and qualify in their 
examinations on duty. J.F.H. 



Mr. Thomas Ball, recalled. 

The Witness. — There is a matter, which I think strange, connected with the sys- 
tem of the department, to which I omitted to allude. That is if a man makes a mis- 
take they fine him a day or two days' pay. In my opinion that is not justice at all. 
They make you perform your work and if you commit a little error you are fined a 
day's pay, although you have performed that day's labour. In plain English, they 
might just as well come and take your money out of your pocket. We have done the 
work and yet the money is deducted out of your salary at the end of the month. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 993 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 
By the Chairman: 

Q. How is the mistake discovered £ — A. There are lots of mistakes that you re- 
port yourself. You may neglect to put a bag on or some little thing like that. Well, 
the superintendent will report the matter and you will be fined. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Do you not think some provision of that kind may be necessary in the way of 
discipline? — A. I certainly think discipline is necessary but I do not think that is dis- 
discipline at all, and I will tell you why : You may make an innocent mistake and not 
do it intentionally or wilfully. 

Q. It may be carelessness? — A. It may be indirectly carelessness, but such a pro- 
ceeding is against the statutory law of the land. I am talking about something I 
know. The Grand Trunk and the Canadian Pacific Eailway used to do a good deal of 
that. They would fine their engineers, firemen, and brakesmen a day's pay for making 
a mistake. Well, there was one engineer who kept track of the fines that were charged 
against him and when he quitted the service he took the company to court and the judge 
said they could not make a man do the work and then take his money. They had to 
refund those fines and now when a man makes a mistake or commits some gross error 
of discipline they lay him off for two days or five days and he loses his pay. 

By the Chairman : 
Q. It is as broad as it is long? — A. He is at perfect liberty to go and do some 
other work. 

By Mr. Bazin: 
Q. Under the new system he does not perform the duty? — A. No. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. They can lay him off and take the pay? — A. I do not think it is fair to com- 
pel a man to \york all day and not pay him his money. However, I am not making 
any special complaint as to that. 

Q. We have to take the thing all round? — A. I do not see where the money goe3 
to. That is what puzzles me. 

Q. That goes into the postal revenue of the country. 

Mr. Harper — Is it necessary for us to state the number of miles transferred? 

The Chairman — I can perfectly understand that you have to see all trains in at 
Hamilton at all hours and the same thing has to be done in Toronto. 

Mr. Ball — We have to stay on duty all the time rain or shine. 

Witness retired. 



Toronto, September 25, 1907. 
Mr. I. McL. Hartley. Toronto, called, sworn and examined. 

By the Chairman : 
Q. Have you a memorial to present. Mr. Hartley? — A. I have, sir. 
Memorial filed and marked exhibit. 

The Chairman — Mr. Hartley and gentlemen. At other places visited by us we 
have had the pleasure of hearing the views of vour colleagues in the mail service. We 
29a— 63 



994 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

have heard all about the vibration of trains, exposure to the weather, the nervous dis- 
eases that are engendered by the nature of the occupation, the constant strain upon 
the body, and the standing up night and day which is involved in the duties of mail 
clerk. All that has been put before us, as well as representations on the salary ques- 
tion, so that what we really want to know from you are the facts in connection with 
the local peculiarties of this district. 

Q. What is the average run of a mail clerk in the Toronto district? — A. About 
180 to 200 miles. 

Q. What is your own run? — A. My own run is from Toronto to Montreal at 
present. 

Q. Which line do you travel by?— A. The Grand Trunk. It is 334 miles. 

Q. Do you do that by day or by night ? — A. I have alternate trips, night and day. ' 

Q. Then you are going down to Montreal to-night I presume? — A. No. I came 
in yesterday morning and I go out again to-morrow morning. 

Q. You go down to-morrow morning and when do you return? — A. I return the 
next day. 

Q. By day or by night? — A. By day. 

Q. Yours is an entirely day trip? — A. Entirely a day trip and then entirely a 
night trip. It differs a little on account of there being no Sunday morning trains. 
Once in ten weeks there is half a trip. 

Q. You alternate week by week between night and day. with the exception of 
this change once in ten weeks? — A. Yes. 

Q. The same thing happens, I suppose, running to Montreal by the C.P.E.? — 
A. Not exactly, as the C.P.B. runs from Ottawa to here. 

Q. Ottawa is not on the direct line from here to Montreal? — A. The postal car 
service, as operated on the C.P.R., is not operated on the night train between Mont- 
real and Smith's Falls, and there is no car on the day train between Smith's Falls and 
Toronto. 

Q. I noticed coming up yesterday from Ottawa on the C.P.B. that the mail car 
was composed of a mail car and a second class coach. Does that combination prevail 
on the Grand Trunk Bailway also? — A. Yes; at some places. 

Q. Your means of getting into the mail car consists of two or three iron bars? — 
A. The way we get into the mail cars coming up from Montreal is by a perpendicular 
ladder. 

Q. A perpendicular ladder with two or three steps? — A. Yes. 

Q. And the railway mail clerks have to jump on this ladder at the last moment 
when the train is moving out? — A. Very often the mail clerk is called upon to do 
that. 

Q. His duties would detain him at the station taking on mail matter, and he 
would have to jump to get on the train? — A. He has to alight from the train to clear 
the pillar boxes at stations en route. 

Q. Sometimes the mail car is a second car from the engine? — A. Yes, and some- 
times the first. 

Q. Sometimes the first? — A. More often the first. 

Q. Is there any difference between the Grand Trunk and the C.P.B. in the 
matter of comfort in the mail car? — A. So far as I can state, there is a great deal of 
difference in some particular places. I think the C.P.B. accommodation is much 
better to-day than the Grand Trunk in general. 

Q. Do you think, judging from your observation in this district, that the mail 
car could be improved in any respect and made heavier? — A. Undoubtedly. 

Q. You are liable to accident from being so close to the engine? — A. We are 
liable to serious consequences in case of an accident. 

Q. Have you ever been in an accident yourself? — A. I have. 

Q. Was the train derailed? — A. Yes; derailed near Orangeville. 



ROYAL COMMISSIOX ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 995 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. If by an accident your car caught fire and your valuables that you had on 
board were destroyed, would you have any compensation? — A. I have not had any- 
thing burnt. I had a suit of clothes destroyed by blood at the time of the accident I 
was in in 1S97, and I received no compensation. 

Q. It is not the rule of the department to regard the service as liable to accidents ? 
— A. In that case they did not take any action. 

Q. How many routes are there in this Toronto district? — A. Do you mean the 
different postal car services? 

Q. Yes? — A. I have not compiled them, but there are about twenty-five, I think; 
somewhere in that neighbourhood. 

Q. There are other lines besides the C.P.R. and the Grand Trunk running out of 
Toronto? — A. Just the one — the Canadian Northern. 

Q. Where does that run to ? — A. It does not operate a postal car service. 
Of course, it has a mail service from Toronto. That line only operates about seventy- 
five or eighty miles up the road. 

Q. That line has not got into operation? — A. It is practically a new railroad. 
It runs as far as the Muskoka lakes and back. 

Q. Have you ever served on other routes besides this Toronto-Montreal route ? — 
A. I have performed duties on most of the railway services running out of Toronto, 
nearly all of them. 

Q. Are you shifted about very much? — A. Not of late years but formerly there 
was continual shifting. 

Q. Latterly it has become a process of laying down a route and sticking by it ? — 
A. Very much, although I am changed when the time comes to do impromptu runs 
on other routes in case of sickness or other cause. 

Q. How long have you been in the service ? — A. Twenty-one years. 

Q. Do you know anything about the English practice ? — A. Do you mean the 
mail service practice in England? 

Q. Yes ? — A. No, I do not know anything. I have seen photographs of the 
English postal cars, the interior and exterior, but that is all. 

Q. You are not aware that an English mail clerk is on duty about six months 
and then he gets into another branch of the post office service? — A. No, I am not 
aware of that. 

Q. Have you heard of the practice ? — A. I have heard that stated but I do not 
know it to be a fact. I believe that is their routine, they promote to higher positions 
in the department. 

Q. I do not allude to promotions but to shifting about of the clerks ? — A. Yes, 
shifting about. 

Q. Do you not think that instead of the system of once a railway mail clerk 
always a railway mail clerk, the plan of shifting about would be beneficial to the 
service ? — A. I do not think so. 

Q. Do you not think that changing would be more likely to secure promotion? — 
A. I think that nothing would lead .to greater 'confusion in the performance of their 
duties. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 
Q. Do you not think it always an advantage to any particular class of men to 
have an entire field open to them in looking forward to promotion if they fitted them- 
selves for it? — A. It would be necessary to have a limit as to when it would be neces- 
sary to reach the standard of perfection. In our case it is fixed at 90 per cent. If 
you change a man from branch to branch I do not see how his physical system can 
stand it, even if his standard of perfection was never as high as ours is. 

By the Chairman : 
Q. They do not have the case examination in England ? — A. I do not think so. 
29a— 63J 



996 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. The case examination is peculiar to Canada ? — A. No, to Canada and the 
United States. 

Q. Do the railway mail clerks in the United States mail service continue in that 
position ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Then the position of our railway mail clerks is pretty near analogous to that 
which exists on the other side of the line? — A. Yes. 

Q. The longest route is from here ,to Montreal ? — A. In this district ? 

Q. Yes ? — A. Yes, from here to Montreal. 

Q. How many miles do you call it ? — A. 334 miles. 

Q. Do you know of any railway mail clerk in England who runs, say from 
London to Brighton ? — A. 1 do not know. 

Q. Do you think that our following the United States plan is in consequence of 
the routes being longer here than they are in England ? — A. I think possibly it is. 

Q. The only position that the railway mail clerk can look forward to under the 
present system is that of superintendent ? — A. He has got to look a long way to see 
it. 

Q. There are a number of superintendents and one chief superintendent, Mr. 
Armstrong ? — A. Mr. Armstrong is the controller. 

Q. So practically by limiting the railway mail clerk to his own special class of 
business he has a long way to look forward to becoming superintendent and very little 
chance of becoming controller? — A. I do not think there is a possible chance of his 
getting that position. 

Q. The present controller came from your service? — A. He came from the post 
office service, not from the railway mail clerks' service. Mr. Armstrong is the only 
controller that has been appointed since the service was established. He was taken 
from the post office at Toronto. Prior to his appointment as controller of the railway 
mail service he was assistant postmaster at Toronto. 

Q. You are exposed to a constant strain as you are standing up in the mail car 
all the time? — A. Yes. 

Q. Have you any time to lie down at all? — A. On most runs we have no time to 
lie down at all. 

Q. If there was any time to spare is there a lounge provided in the car? — A- No, 
sir. In the car I run in there are from five to six men and sometimes there is one 
chr.ir. 

Q. So you are constantly on your legs? — A. We are constantly standing. 

Q. And the proximity of the car to the engine causes an immense amount of 
vibration in the car? — A. Very much more than if the car was remote from the 
engine. 

Q. This leads to constant breakdowns and nervous incapacity to perform your 
work? — A. We have had some striking evidences of late. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Do you not think it would be a good thing for the Government to stipulate 
with all the railroad companies that carry mails that a certain type of mail car should 
be provided? — A. I do. 

Q. With proper conveniences to suit the service? — A. I think the Post Office De- 
partment should dictate to the railway company what kind of car there should be. 

Q. It should be one of the conditions of the service? — A. I think so. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Are any of your men leaving the service? — A. Yes. 

Q. In order to better themselves? — A. They are leaving to better themselves, 
that is bright young men. 

Q. Then the tendency now is that a man entering the service as a railway mail 
clerk, after looking about, leaves it again? — A. He leaves the service. 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 997 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. I suppose in travelling through such a large territory, as the railway mail 
clerk does, he has opportunities of seeing what men can do! — A. His opportunities 
for observing commercial service are better. 

Q. In the railway mail service if a man fails to pass his examination he loses his 
annual increment? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What percentage constitutes failure? — A. Less than ninety. 

Q. So that a man must be well posted up to nine-tenths of a subject, otherwi-e 
he loses his annual increment? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Then an old officer in the service who does his work fairly well, but whose 
nerves may be affected by hardship and the arduous nature of his duties might poss- 
ibly lose under the case examination? — A. It is almost inevitable that a man should 
wear out as he gets older. 

Q. Then the older railway mail clerk, instead of getting the annual increment, 
really loses it? — A. Yes. 

Q. And the younger mail clerk who still maintains his nerves gets the annual 
increment? — A. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. — I have nothing more to ask you. We have gone over these 
subjects to substantiate what has been said elsewhere. If any other member of your 
deputation would like to say anything it is open to him to do so. 

Presented by J. McL. Hartley. 

To the Civil Service Royal Commission. 

Gentlemen, — As, no doubt, you are aware, the Railway Mail Clerks of Canada, by 
a representative deputation, presented a request to the Honourable the Postmaster 
General of Canada, on October 13, 1906, for an increase of salary, to which he replied 
most encouragingly. 

Being then fully convinced of the worthiness of our request, it can be readily un- 
derstood that we cheerfully accept this opportunity of presenting our claim before a 
tribunal, appointed to dispassionately inquire into the affairs of the Civil Service. 

The railway mail clerks of Canada number four hundred and forty-eight (448), 
and are situated at the various centres from which railway post offices services are 
operated. 

The duties of a railway mail clerk, probably more than that of any other employee 
in the Civil Service, is but little known, and generally misunderstood. The life is al- 
together one of devotion and application. 

A clerk on entering the service must first qualify fur appointment : then he is called 
upon to qualify for promotion, and in order to be promoted and maintain such promo- 
tion as he may have accomplished, he is annually subjected to an examination at which 
he must obtain at least ninety (90) per cent, until he has passed the age of sixty (60) 
years. We can justly claim that there is no standard of proficiency so high as that 
of a railway mail clerk. His duties entail the performance of such a varied and intri- 
cate routine aboard a rapidly-moving train, thus placing him in a very hazardous and 
trying position. This cannot be doubted since the Commission, appointed by the Hon- 
ourable the Minister of Labour, to adjust the differences between the Bell Telephone 
Company and their employees at Toronto in February last, in the course of their ex- 
amination of medical experts, elicited the fact that there was no occupation so exact- 
ing as that of a railway mail clerk. While on duty, a clerk is called upon to assume 
the whole responsibility of distributing and despatching the mail in his charge, and 
owing to the continual increase of matter and changes of departmental regulations 
his duties are ever increasing. Conscious of this great responsibility and ever-impend- 
ing danger, his position is thus exceedingly strenuous. 

The ever-impending danger to which a clerk is subjected must not be looked at as 
referring only to railway accidents, but to another serious danger; that of succumbing 
to the great nervous and physical strain to which he is stibjected. The magnitude of 



998 ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

this danger cannot be overestimated, and we regret to say that even at the present time 
we have melancholy evidence of the effect of a mail clerk's life on his physical and ner- 
vous system. We have a number of clerks whose vitality has been sapped and whose 
nervous systems are shattered. 

It may be contended that a clerk's duties are interspersed with periods off duty, 
which may appear of some magnitude to those unacquainted with such a life, but, to 
meet this contention, the compiled duties of the clerks in Toronto district for the week 
ending June 15, 1907, show that each clerk actually performed on an average eight (8) 
hours fifteen (15) minutes duty each day, of which two (2) hours thirty-five (35) 
minutes is night duty. In addition to having performed the above stated duty each 
clerk is required, between each trip, to report at the superintendent's office to famil- 
iarize himself with departmental instructions and regulations and also must prepare 
supplies before commencing each trip. 

The greater responsibility of our position can more readily be comprehended, when 
it is understood that a clerk's work is not completed by the ending of each trip, but 
should any misunderstanding or irregularity occur pertaining to the duties which have 
been performed, the responsibility of adjusting such reverts to the clerk ; thus it can be 
seen that a railway mail clerk is a higher classed officer than he is generally appre- 
hended to be. In support of this statement permit us to quote the following excerpt 
from a letter written in 1903, to the Railway Mail Clerks of Toronto District over the 
signature of so eminent an authority as Sir William Mulock, Postmaster General of 
Canada : The duties of our railway mail clerks are onerous, responsible, and hazard- 
ous, and with very rare exceptions have been performed with uniform cheerfulness, 
efficiency, and fidelity. From careful observation, I feel fully warranted in saying that 
Canada has no more deserving and worthy officers, than her railway mail clerks.' 

It may be stated that we received an increase in 1903, but if the amount of this 
increase, together with the regulations by which we obtain it are considered, it can 
readily be seen that this did not more than afford a relief to the conditions which had 
existed for forty-seven (47) years, and does not keep pace with the continued annual 
increased cost of living. 

That the cost of living has greatly increased, and has been realized by every 
citizen is beyond a doubt, but being compelled to live in towns and cities the railway 
mail clerks are therefore more particularly affected, and as an evidence of the great 
advance in the cost of living in Toronto we beg to submit the following: — 

The cost of living may be classified as follows: — (a) food; (b) fuel; (c) clothing; 
(d) rents; (e) miscellaneous expenditure. The question of increase may therefore 
be discussed under these heads. 

A. — Food : The following are the principal articles of food consumed in working- 
men's families, arranged approximately in the order of proportionate expenditure: 
Butter, meat, sugar, milk, bread, flour, fish, potatoes and other vegetables, eggs, tea, 
fruit, oatmeal and cheese. 

The following are. sold in the St. Lawrence market and the prices are quoted 
daily in the newspapers: Potatoes, apples, cabbage, onions, turkeys, geese, hens, 
butter, eggs, beef, lamb, mutton, veal and hogs. 

The average minimum prices of the Saturday market have been taken out for 
each year, and the whole combined in a series of index numbers as follows. These 
index numbers show the percentage of advance in each year since 1897, as compared 
with the prices of that year: 

P. C. 

Prices of 1897 100 

1898 112 

1899 132 

1900 132 

1901 127 

1902 150 

1903 147 

1904 147 



E07AL COUUIiiSIOX OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 999 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Advance of 6^ per cent. 

Thus as far as the commodities which are sold in the market are concerned., the 
prices of 1902 represented an advance over 1897 of 50 per cent, while the prices of 
1906 represented an advance of 61 per cent. Of the commodities in the first of the 
foregoing lists, including some which are not sold in the market, not all have advanced 
in an equal degree. The following will illustrate this point : — 

Index Index 

Xo. No. 

of 1S97. of 1906. 

Butter 100 149 

Beef 100 136 

Sugar 100 110 

Milk 100 113 

Bread 100 92 

Flour 100 105 

Fish 100 125 

Potatoes 100 162 

Mutton 100 157 

Eggs 100 167 

Lard 100 150 

Tea 100 100 

Apples 100 122 

Oatmeal 100 100 

Cheese 100 129 

Total 100 128 

This shows an advance in the prices of these foodstuffs, which are those entering 
most importantly into the consumption of workingmen's families, or 82 per cent. In 
the above statement no account is taken of the relative importance of the commodities, 
that is, of the proportions in which they enter into consumption. This varies with 
the size of the family and with the ages of the children. Tor a normal family of 5.5 
persons, certain " weights ' may be attached to the percentages given. This has been 
done, and the resulting percentage does not differ materially from that given above. 
It is therefore not necessary to detail the calculation. 

Moreover, it must be realized that the comparison is between two periods in 
which the standard of comfort is assumed not to have varied. As a matter of fact, 
the advance of the standard of comfort has added greatly to the cost of living, and 
would have added to it had there been no advance into the prices of commodities. 

The chief advances have occurred in the following commodities : — 

Eggs. 67 per cent. Cooking eggs have advanced on account of the increased 
shipping demand and on account also of the larger local demand. Fresh eggs have 
been sent from the region around Toronto in large quantities to the mining towns and 
camps of Cobalt, and this has constituted a new field for demand. 

Potatoes, 62 per cent. The principal cause of this increase is the deficient crop 
of the last year or two. United States potatoes have been largely imported to make 
up the deficiency. 

Mutton, 57 per cent. This increase has been caused chiefly by the increase of 
local demand, coupled with a diminution in sheep farming. 

Lard, 50 per cent. Thi<= has been due to the demand in Northern Ontario and 
the Northwest and to the increased price of hogs. Lard is not shipped abroad. 

Butter, 49 per cent. Increase in the price of butter falls very heavily upon the 
poorer families, by whom a large quantity is consumed, relatively to the quantities 
of other articles, the expenditure upon butter* being approximately the same as that 
upon all meats. The advance has been due largely to the advance in the price of lard. 
It has taken place chiefly in cooking butter. 

B. — Fuel. ' Pursuing the same method as that adopted in presenting the prices 
of food, the variations in the prices of coal may be presented as follows : — 



1000 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIYIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII.. A. 1908 

1897 100 

1898 95 

1899 78 

1900 105 

1901 105 

1902 110 

1903 (strike year) , 184 

1904 114 

1905 124 

1906 124 

The causes of the fluctuations being almost wholly external to Canada need not 
be discussed here. 

COST OF CLOTHING. 

C. — Clothing. Of all items in domestic expenditure clothing is perhaps the most 

difficult to present in statistics. During the past ten years the principal raw materials 

have advanced in price as follows : — 

1897. . 190G. 

Eaw cotton 100 175 

Web cotton 100 133 

Canadian wool 100 150 

Australian wool 100 -150 

Fine wool 100 130 

Flannel 100 200 

The following is based upon prices quoted by some of the leading retail houses 

for goods of the same quality in 1897 and in 1906 : — 

1897. 1906. 

First quality, suits 100 125 

Second quality, suits 100 118 

Causes other than local determine the prices of the great staples cotton and wool. 
The increase of demand has, it is understood, stimulated production and has affected 
prices to a comparatively moderate extent. 
Shoes have advanced as thus : — 

1897. 1906. 

Shoes.. . r 100 125 

D. — Kent. The most conspicuous of the increases in the items of household ex- 
penditures has been the increase in rent. 

The increase in rent may be set down broadly to the increase in population and 
to the failure of the house-building industry to keep pace with it. That the popula- 
tion has outgrown the means for its accommodation is obvious from the following : — 

Assessment of real property per head in Toronto from 1892 to 1906 : — 

18P° $819 

1J-93 832 

1894 777 

1895 732 

1896 667 

1897 631 

1898 613 

1899 586 

1900 576 

1901 583 

1902 583 

1903 579 

1904 581 

1905 591 

1906 611 

Eight ' samples ' workmen's houses, upon which no improvements have been ex- 
ecuted by the owners during the past ten years, and the history of which has been 
made available, exhibit the following increase in rents: — 

Index number, 1897 100 

Index number, 1906 195 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE 1001 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

This is an increase of 95 per cent in ten years. It is true that the mini! 
houses is not large., but there is reason to believe that they are fairly representative. 
The error is probably not of great magnitude. 

Miscellaneous expenditure always increases with the increase of resources. Much 
of the advance in the standard of comfort appears in the provision of the thousand 
odds and ends that are dispensed with when wages are low and that are the oecasi 
of ' leakage ' when wages are high. 

The amount of weight which seemed to be attached to the different items of house- 
hold expenditure is very difficult to determine. A very extended inquiry woul 
necessary to find a basis for an accurate series of figures. The proportions which have 
been found to prevail in the United States, still less those in Europe, cannot be taken 
as applying conclusively to Toronto. 

Table showing percentage increases in the coat of the chief items of working- 
class expenditure, as between 1897 and 1906. 

1897. 19D6- 

Food 100 128 

Rent 100 195 

Fuel 100 124 

Clothing 100 120 

Application of the following ' weights ' to the above table yields the result 
as follows : — 

Food. 10 : rent. 5 : fuel. 2 : clothing. 2. 

18 " 
"Weighted" index number 100 144 

This "weighted' index represents the increase in the cost of the necessaries 
life in a normal workingman's family, so far as the material at present available 
enables a general conclusion to be drawn. 

These figures apply for the most part to workingman's families. In middle- 38 
households, although precise details are wanting., it is probable that rent has advanced 
in quite as great a proportion as has been the case in the "working class. On the other 
hand, domestic service has increased very heavily, and the cost of miscellaneous I 
stuffs consumed by the middle class has also increased. The following increases in 
retail prices of fine groceries are given by way of example. 

1906. 

Cocoa 125 

Raisin? 1"" 1*7 

Currants UK) 133 

Almond- 100 170 

Starch 100 140 

Biscuits 100 114 

Pepper (black) 100 130 

Figs 100 125 

Candies 1"" 125 

Tinned Salmon 100 131 

Good clothing has also increased in price. It should be remarked that some 
tion of the observed increase in the cost of living must be attributed to a general 
advance in the standard of comfort of all classes. Earnings in th^ working 3& 
have been higher, and have been more freely spent. Trading profits hava also been 
higher, and the expenses of the trading class have risen proportionately. 

S an/ Class Hard Hit. 

On the other hand, the salaried class have suffered by the advance of prices, and 
by the increased standard of comfort around them with which they naturally desire 
keep pace. In a period of falling price, of course the class with fixed incomes gains, but 
the current has been in the other direction for some time. The advance of rent has 
fallen heavily upon the class of persons who live on a small fixed income. Many : : 



1002 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERTICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

these have been compelled seriously to diminish their comfort, to remove to a smaller 
house and to practice economy in clothing and otherwise. The rise in the wages of 
domestic servants has compelled this class to do without them. 

The pressure upon household accommodation has led large numbers of families 
to take in lodgers in order to increase their income, or to enable them to pay the en- 
hanced rents. This practice has contributed still further to enhance rents, the cost of 
houses, and the price of land in certain portions of the city. 

We have endeavoured to set forth in the foregoing that the particular and superior 
duties and qualifications required for railway mail clerks, together with the exacting 
nature of their work, and the enormous increase in cost of living entitles them to a 
greater remuneration than that which they now receive, and we therefore trust that 
you may concur with us in concluding that our request to have our salaries adjusted 
by making the annual increase one hundred ($100) dollars, and the maximum fifteen 
hundred ($1,500) dollars is just and reasonable. 

Signed on behalf of the Eailway Mail Clerks of Toronto District, 

J. McL. HARTLEY, 

Railway Mail Cleric. 

Toronto, September 25, 1907. 



Toronto, September 25, 1907. 

Mr- W. G. Jessop, Toronto, called, sworn and examined; — 
Memorial presented and read and filed as exhibit. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. How do the trains run in your district, pretty well on time? — A. Not as far 
as I know. 

Q. Then practically what you call an eight hour day may be a nine or ten hour 
day? — A. Or a good deal more. For instance, I run from here to North Bay. The 
train leaving North Bay is supposed to start from there at 8.50 at night, but it waits 
for connections from the west until one or two or three o'clock in the morning. Then 
instead of getting into Toronto at 7 o'clock in the morning, I may not reach there till 
ten or twelve o'clock or one p.m., and when I get in at that time I receive less pay, 
less mileage, than if I had arrived at 7 a.m. If I do not get to Toronto until 8 o'clock 
that night my mileage is cut down for every mile run. 

Q. The longer you work the less you receive? — A. The longer I work the less I get. 

Q. Even on a well constituted line like the Canadian Facific Eailway the train 
may be an hour late as was the case with the train from the east last night? — A. It 
works against them as well as it does against us. 

Q. On the best lines in this district you may be late? — A. They may be late very 
frequently. I have run late for three months at a time. 

Q. In this district, I presume, in the winter, the average of late trains is greater 
than in the summer? — A. Yes, that is true of most routes. It is not so true of the 
route from here to North Bay, because it is troubled very much with the traffic and 
the tourists to and from the Northwest and the Cobalt district, and there is a good 
deal of interference with the ordinary running of those trains. 

Q. You state in your memorial that there is a great responsibility resting on the 
mail clerk which should be recognized and that his remuneration should in some 
degree be in proportion to the responsibility? — A. May I be permitted to make a 
statement? 



ROYAL COMMISSION OX THE CIVIL SERVICE lOOci 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

Q. Certainly? — A. I mean to say that men who are in positions of responsibility, 
such as bankers and others, are paid somewhat in proportion to that responsibility. 
Take my own case : I start out from Toronto, say to-night. I get registered bank 
packages to the value of $5,030,000 or $6,000,000, besides numbers of ordinary registered 
letters and packages. I get bank packages up to the amount I have stated and at this 
season of the year, and later on, with money moving to the Northwest from the east, 
the amount sent is very great. This money is brought to the post office at Toronto. I 
believe, by bank messengers who are armed. That money is kept in the vault until I 
get it. It is then dumped into a wagon and I am driven through the darkest streets 
of Toronto to the Union station. I am driven into a dark hole at the station where 
there is not a single light, and perhaps the driver goes up to the other end of the 
station and leaves me there in charge. I am alone and nobody could tell anythir.g 
about what might happen there, any one could come and hold me up. Then these 
registered letters and packages are wheeled out to the car and unloaded there and left 
in my charge without any place in which to put it where there can be any safety. In 
charge of all this money I go from here to North Bay with the danger of being held up 
if anybody should know what is being carried. I think that my services should be 
recognized in proportion to the vast amount of money for which I am responsible, and 
some of which I could easily make away with if I desired. 

By Mr. Fyshe : 

Q. A more serious question than that is whether it is the proper policy to pursue, 
whether you should not have some one with you — a kind of joint custody \ — A. That 
might be adopted too. What I mean to say is there is not sufficient safeguard. 

Mr. Fyshe. — Clearhc that is so. Your description is correct. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. You said the driver may leave you at the station. Are your mails taken to 
the station by horse vehicles \ — A. Yes. 

Q. You have not the same system as in Ottawa of conveying the mails by trolley 
cars ? — A. No, that system is not used here. 

Q. Is that peculiar to Ottawa? — A. I think so. 

Q. There would be better protection if the Ottawa system were in use here ? — A. 
Yes, there certainly would be. 

Q. You say in your memorial that when a vacancy takes place on a route, notice 
- ch vacancy should be given. Are there some routes that are better than others ? 
— A. Yes, there are. 

Q. And do the senior clerks gravitate to these better positions? — A. They should, 
but they do not always. 

Q. Which do you consider the best route ? — A. Well, it depends upon the stand- 
point from which you regard it. If a man wants more salary the longer routes are the 
best. 

Q. There is more mileage? — A. Yes, more mileage. 

Q. But supposing he desires comfort '. — A. Then he should be given his choice 
when a smaller route falls vacant. 

Q. Supposing Mr. Hartley were away on his holidays, or sick, and his route be- 
came vacant, who would take his place '. — A. Unfortunately Mr. Kane or Mr. Flint 
would likely have to make double trips. 

Q. How many railway mail clerks are there in this district ? — A. Nearly 100. 

Q. Wio makes the appointment to a vacancy, the superintendent ? — A. It would 
be hard for me to say; I really do not know. 

Q. You report to the superintendent at the end of each journey ? — A. In what 
way ? 



1004 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 

7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908 

Q. There is a kind of report that you have to make, or return '. — A. Yes. we send 
in our return at the close of every trip. I thought perhaps you meant that we would 
report in person. 

Q. Mr. McLeod is your superintendent ? — A. Yes. Mr. McLeod. 

Q. Did he begin as a railway mail clerk ? — A. I think he did. 

Q. He began in 1876, thirty-one years ago ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Then when a vacancy occurs among the 100 railway mail clerks you do not 
know how it is filled ?— A. Except that it is filled. There' is sometimes a good deal 
of dissatisfaction by the way in which it is filled. 

Q. You think, everything being equal, that the senior qualified officer should be 
promoted ? — A. I certainly think so. 

Q. Now we come to the hardships of your assistants. What do you call porters, 
labourers ? — A. Those who have not passed the qualifying examination but are in the 
service and are doing the work of mail clerks. I have been asked to speak for them. 
I may say I am the representative of the clerks in the Toronto district. 

Q. These men to whom I refer have not passed the examination ? — A. They have 
not. 

May I say a word on another subject at this point. 1 have (me young man on my 
route who was thrown by the jolting of the car— we have very rough cars and I would 
like to say something about that, and as to lighting and other points — against the rack 
and his thumb torn open on one of the hooks, and his back hurt. He was off for, I 
think, three or four days, and $1.50 a day was deducted from his pay for that time. 
Yet that young man was hurt while in the performance of his duty. 

Mr. Fvshe. — That is brutal. 

The Witness. — It is simply a brutal outrage. 

Mr. Fyshe. — I never heard of anything worse than that. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. This young man is graded as a labourer, I suppose ? — A. Xo, I do not think 
he is graded as a laboiu-er, he is an acting mail clerk. 

Q. Yes, I know that, but has he passed the examination '. — A. I do not think he 
is classed amongst the labourers. 

Q. He is an acting clerk. He has not passed the examination ? He is practically 
like Mahomet's coffin — neither one thing nor the other? — A. Then he should not be 
kept there. He should not be kept or else paid enough to live on. 

Q. You think that a man. should either pass the examination or go out ? — A. I 
think so, and these young men themselves think that. They should not let any one in 
without passing the examination but when in they should be treated fairly. 

Q. There should be a certain probationary period during which those desirous of 
becoming mail clerks should either pass examination or go out ? — A. Yes. 

Q. What other information have you ? — A. There is the matter of sickness during 
the year. It is a very interesting fact that we have ninety-two clerks and last year 
just forty-six of them, exactly 50 per cent were off. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. Not all at the same time? — A. Xo. not all at the same time. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Pressure of that kind would result in nervous breakdown? — A. Yes, and it 
cannot be avoided. I have run continually for ten weeks, up one day and down the 
next. I have run about half-way around the world in ten weeks. That is very heavy 
work, and was the result of doing duty for other men who were off on holidays or 
something of that kind. I may have had my three weeks' holidays in that year, but 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICE 1005 

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 29a 

if I did, when I returned and worked for ten weeks on a stretch all the good effect 
of my recreation would disappear. I had no holidays in effect. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 
Q. How old are you? — A. I was fifty-one in June. 

Q. I do not know how you can stand such severe work as that? — A. I have been 
very strong. I have not been very long in the service and am not quite used up yet. 

By the Chairman: 
Q. You think the number of trips should be lessened? — A. Yes, in some cases. I 
think we should have a definite number. I think there should be something that should 
be recognized as a definite number of runs; we run too much. We are not paid 
enough for it, as we become used up or fall sick. 

By Mr. Fyshe: 

Q. Do you not think the policy of the